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Stbx made it today. Our mutual attorney friend greeted her at the airport. She was served. She demanded to go to our home. Fortunately, the order of protection was in place. Our friend explained very clearly to her what it said and that the judge that signed is also our judge for the divorce proceedings so she best not violate it thus ticking off the judge. Friend helped her get a rental car and check into a hotel. Kids are out of town on a school trip. Friend convinced her that she should get an attorney. Amazingly, she was able to get an appointment with an L tomorrow. My L and I are relieved that she's starting the process. Now we can move forward. Next step is managing a meeting with the kids after they return. She's not allow within 500 feet of me and we can not communicate verbally - email only.

Great news so far! Expect it to deteriorate and don't break contact yourself. I still stick with my suggestions regarding your kid's safety - cab fare etc. Especially once she has got over jet lag and has worked herself up into a nice rage.  Take care.

This is a disorder of emotional imbalance and dysregulation.  Expect extremes.  She may be raging - or she may morph into the opposite, into victim poor-me mode.  Probably alternating between both.  Be prepared for both possibilities.

Steps 1 and 2 done... .  steps 3425 ahead.

Rose suggested in another post that if stbx uN/BPD is high functioning that she likely will work hard to keep up appearances. That was the case today.

She retained her own attorney. Her L contacted my L and said that stbx was very calm and professional. Her desire is to maintain our mutual business. I'm not even close to uncorking the champagne but it is a step in the right direction.

Stbx, not surprisingly, denied some of the events that lead to the order of protection. She also neglected to include the fact that she was married once before on her in-take papers for her L according to our friend that's helping her out. Again fine. She's trying to keep up appearances and hide her "condition". Stbx suggested that we get counseling together to learn to communicate better for the sake of our kids and business. My L made it clear that the marriage is definitely and forever over but I might be open to counseling for the kids sake. Which is true. I'm not sure if there's a real downside to that? Also, her L told my L stbx just had a situational issue which cased her to act out... .  Yeah right. Anyway, better that her L believes that. I'm on the same page as my L - the BPD stuff stays far out of the discussion... .  It's not time to pull the crazy card.

My L told me it is highly irregular that a divorcing couple who share a business can continue the business together after the divorce but it can happen. Fortunately our business requires very little ongoing communication to operate. Once a week for an hour or so it usual enough. Again, I'm not getting too excited but I'm willing to explore ways to maintain the business for the sake of our kids and financial well-being. Whatever agreement we come up with has to have an exit strategy built in for me. I'm willing to continue the business for the next 2~ 3 years until our kids are in college and then I'd prefer to sell my interest in the business to her- or sooner should there be too much conflict. Tomorrow's a new day with need adventures. I'm totally prepared mentally for her to flip-flop and make things complicated again. If she can maintain and we can get some of this stuff resolved soon that later all the better... .  

Our Custody Evaluator - the Ph.D. psychologist who diagnosed my wife - recommended that we get a mediator, and recommended another Ph.D. psychologist in his office.  I agreed, but said let's use him as a "parenting coach" not a mediator, because I did not want to be dragged into anything I didn't think was right.

He was expensive but really good.  We agreed to see him once every two months.

It might be helpful, but if she is living in another country I'm not sure it would work very well for you.  In practical terms, you are the kids' only real parent, and she's a woman they used to know who decided to leave them.  I'm not sure exactly what a mediator or parenting coach would do for you... .  

It true, I'm the only real parent. It's been that way for a very long time. She, fortunately, seems to want the best for their future in terms of college etc... .  This has to do with the kids being sort of fashion statements when they're with her in her country. She "shows them off" to her friends etc who all love our kids. Also, this is a cultural thing too - wanting your kids to get a very good education at a good school etc... .  powerful factor in her country. Again, if that stuff benefits the kids in terms of her being more willing to work with me all the better.

I'll clarify the point of joint counseling again. I told my L I'm open to it if it keeps us moving toward a resolution for the business and assets that I can live with. Maybe she wants to prove that she's not mentally unstable etc... .  Fine. Stbx seems to want to resolve this sooner than later - at least that's the case for now. We have a number of issues to work out. Top on the list is the business which neither one of us wants to walk away from as it provides a good additional income which I need to make ends meet. Also, our business ties in with her job. She would "lose face" big time if the business goes under as a result of our divorce. I've been consistent in my desire to carefully explore ways to continue the business- though staying married is not an option. I'm relieved that the our Ls can help move this along.

It could work. My exuBPDmil was so into face saving that as far as I know, she only lost it in semi public (family) a couple of times in 85 years and in public not at all. She came across entitled and did things in business that gave her a bad name - ie stop cheques because she didn't like something (felt that was her right), and was not the easiest of landlords since "no one can look after a place they way you do" but held it together. In private she was something else - I witnessed my first BPD rage when I had been married less than 6 months - I was mostly her target.

But how she looked and how her family looked was extremely important to her - not culturally but probably familial.

On the other hand my exBPDh and I were in business with in laws and I will never repeat that experience. Treated me like dirt. But mostly in private. I learned to never have a 1 on 1 (or with exBPDh present only as he never saw the problem and had turned the rages into care for me by the next day), never have a business meeting without a non related party present. That was the only thing that kept her under control.

Co-parenting therapy was recommended by N/BPDxh's (ex) L for both of us during the 1-year separation.

Be careful about counseling. You will not be guaranteed confidentiality, and either of you can call the counselor forward as a witness. A lot of court recommend counselors/therapists are are forensic psychologists and (sorry for the gross over-generalization) a lot of them get into it for the money. It's more lucrative than other kinds of specialties. 

I think counseling is tough for those of us who want to get better and understand how to get along. I think counseling for a couple where one person is pwBPD during a divorce is absurd. I agreed to go only because my L said it made it seem as though I was reasonable, even though she didn't think it would do a darn thing.

Family court. Gah!

If one party is living in the US, and the other party is living in Asia, and just visiting the US once in awhile, counseling makes no sense, but probably can't do much harm either.

Go to the sessions, listen to what the other party has to say, listen to what the counselor has to say, smile politely, and leave.  As LnL says, be careful what you say - probably nothing to be gained and a waste of time and money, but there won't be many sessions anyway because your ex won't be there much.

I agree about the counseling. I really don't think it will do much good. I'd like to think it will help identify the rules of engagement as we move forward- what's allowed and what's not allowed. That may be helpful. In the past, I've mostly been a calm zen monk while my stbx ranted and raged at me. Other times it was just tedious dealing with her. She would read my facial expression and tell me how insensitive I was.

Things are progressing little-by-little day-by-day. Today our Ls set up an appointment with our business attorney to work on a short-term to intermediate-term plan to save the business. This is a good thing. We both know it would be detrimental to us and the kids financially to simply shut down our business.

Also, this evening she is with our S16. She was told clearly by her L that they need to meet in public not in her hotel room and that discussion of the divorce was off limits. They're at dinner right now. My D17 will meet with her tomorrow. Hopefully, with the knowledge that she is not losing her relationship with her kids, her business, or her career she can keep it together and work with her L at getting things settled sooner than later. Even with her issues she has consistently over time been able to rally and make some very practical choices. Fingers crossed!

For her lawyer to share that it must have been a cataclysmic event.  Even without knowing the details, it is noteworthy.  Be aware that whatever happened can't be used against her, but it did give her lawyer a clear signal you weren't making it all up.

Interesting that she's meeting the children separately.  Was this her idea or the kids' idea?

I would have thought it would have been best for them to be together, at least at first.  Most people would try to fix things when confronted with consequences and looking bad.  It's much more intense for someone who's not reasonably normal.  I would expect she's trying to do several things at once.  She will want to put on a good face.  She will try to get them to recant some of the things they may have said or protections they had wanted.  That's what I imagine from a distance.

FD, my D17 was too busy with school activities to meet her with my S16. The rules were made clear to her by her L - public places only and no discussion of the divorce proceedings or the lead up to the divorce. S16 said she was doing fine and they had a very nice evening together. She shared some of her plans with him and told him she's getting a big raise from her employer. She also told him she wants to cooperate with me. Interesting. She did tell S16 she wants to come to our house and cook for them. I told S16 that's not possible because of the court order - I can't even decided that - the judge has to.

My D17 will meet her today for several hours. I'm guessing that will go smoothly too. Again she wants to keep up appearances. She's very smart and she is obviously listening carefully to her L.

She said that after next week she plans to return to her home country if she can not stay at our home. She's scheduled to be back on the 25th. For the sake of moving the divorce process along and maintaining our business until the kids are in college in 2 more years I might entertain the idea. I have a place I can stay. It would be for only about 10 days. The kids would be gone most of the time at school and at after school activities. She can use our home office to work. She knows strictly that her behavior is being observed and that it will hurt her case if she gets out-of-control in front of the kids. Risky to be sure. I'll discuss with my L and my D17 first.

What would be accomplished by moving out of your house?

If she wants to cook, or to settle in for a little longer, there are places like Residence Inn that have kitchens.

Keep your goals clear!

Matt, to allow her to "save face" to an extent and to spend time with the kids. If she can't cook for the kids (I know - it's a big deal to her) and be at "home" she plans to return to Japan next week. We have a meeting Tuesday to discuss ways to maintain the business. If we have more time we can likely move the process along faster. She's indicated that being only business partners with me is fine.

This is a risky overture which would could backfire on me. I put the order of protection in motion to avoid her ranting and raging and disrupting our peaceful household like she did in September. If I'm not here and the kids are here for short periods of time only and her L reminds her of the rules it could work out. I'll discuss with my L and clear it with my D17 - D17 may reject the idea and I will respect her wishes in this case.

Again this is a very unusual situation. My stbx is very high functioning and likes to keep up appearances.

She is manipulating you.

If she wants to stay longer, and see the kids, and work things out with you, she will do that.  She is smart, and she travels a lot, so she knows about Residence Inn and other places like that, with kitchens.  Or she'll just take them out to eat.

If she uses the cooking issue as an excuse to leave sooner, then she doesn't really care about the kids or working things out with you, she just wants a way to push you out of the house.

Boundaries!

You're right. She is manipulating me for sure. I can't say that letting her move in with the kids for 10 days and me moving out will make a bit of difference in the outcome. I've bent to her will for so many years - old habits die hard I guess? Through an email from her sister she's trying to set up a face-to-face meeting with me to go over the business and asset division. We already have a meeting scheduled Tuesday with 3 attorneys.

I must maintain boundaries.

If she returns to Japan late next week she can meet her attorney via Skype and we can continue to move forward.

Old habits certainly died hard for me.  It took me a couple of years to get past some old bad habits and get the right distance.

To clarify it from another aspect, her single cooking request was asking for two changes: (1) be with the children in a non-public setting and (2) be in the home.  The temp order blocked both.  In order to have either one, the order would have to be changed in a way that satisfied both lawyers or court.

Yes, she's only asking you to be "reasonable".  By and large we ARE reasonable people.  In cases like that we are at a disadvantage because we feel guilted to bend even though we were justified in an abundance of caution due to the history of past incidents.

"FOG" ... .  Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

Yes, it's awkward that there are limits on this visit.  But the fact that for now she is currently behaving within normal limits doesn't mean she would have behaved the same way if there were no limits such as those set by the protection order.  Right?  What this tells you is (1) she is able to put on a good public face when she has to and (2) your boundaries are ignored or not respected but the court's boundaries are because she has to obey the court.  Yes, you haven't been deeply respected or an authority figure for a long time.  Now she's facing the reality that only the court has authority, not her.

Most of us here have "been there, done that" when it comes to being guilted.  The ex is able to be so nice when wanting something.  We are pressured to reciprocate at those times.  That otherwise good quality we have is in effect used against us.

Likely you will agree to some of her requests in the future.  You have to be the one to decide when and how often you do.  Understand that each time you weaken a boundary it could give her incentive to ask for more and more.  More normal people can understand that exceptions are not weakness nor long term changes, however she may perceive exceptions differently and see than as openings to keep pushing for more and more.

I agree with Matt, if she could move to a hotel or motel with a kitchenette, she could do some cooking.  Probably too she is trying to salvage something of the family, though of course a week or two won't make up for past years, though she will try anyway.

This is also another reason we don't want to be guilted to say "yes" too soon.  Better to say "let me think about it" and not be pressured to give an immediate response.

Good point.

If your lawyer let you do that, he wouldn't be doing his job.

From:  Jai Yen

To:  Mrs. Jai Yen

cc:  Jai Yen's attorney

I considered your request to be in the home for several days, and realized that the court order will not allow it.  As I understand it, your time with the kids is supposed to be in a public place.

FD and Matt I'm in complete agreement. I told my L I'm not going to budge. My L understands completely. I said we have a number of things to clarify before I agree to those sorts of requests. The bottom line is I need the divorced finalized and everything agreed to and signed before I'm ready to "play nice." Stbx will likely return home later next week if she can not stay here with the kids. The main thing to articulate before she returns home is how to continue the business. My L and her L are trying to setting up a meeting with a couples counselor to help us learn how to communicate better. My L understands that it may not help much but it can't hurt and could help in other ways.

Glad you had this discussion about boundaries!

My ex did something similar during the initial weeks we separated. It's so powerful, that yearning to be "normal" and "reasonable." Like Matt and FD have said, "Boundaries!"

This isn't the time to be negotiating with yourself. Watch out for that impulse. It's common for nons to do it, so it if you feel it, come here and we'll talk you out of it  :)

You're right L-n-L it is powerful. She just emailed a long message to me assuring me that everything will be fine if she's allowed to stay at the house - no more high emotions. She's told me that so many times through the years. My biggest challenge now is remaining assertive by maintaining boundaries but reassuring her that I'm willing to work on our communication skills because that's best for our kids and for coming to an agreement regarding our assets and business.

We have a long couples counseling meeting scheduled for Monday. This was arranged by our attorneys. The next day we have a meeting scheduled with our Ls and our business L to try to come up with ways to maintain our mutual business. I'm actually hoping she returns to her homeland later next week. She has time to come back in March - again hopefully for a settlement meeting. I'm totally exhausted!

One thing I learned the hard way is that "reasonable" is "weak" to N/BPDxh. She is testing you. She will test you in couples counseling (sorry you have to do that, too, btw). Focus on your strategy, keep your goals in mind, and make a pact with yourself to not deviate from what you want.

I had to realize that when I felt "selfish," (what N/BPDxh always said about me) I was actually taking care of myself. It's healthy to feel that way. For the first year, I would feel selfish, and then changed the word to "healthy." I had to say it out loud, "I feel healthy." To get back to level, we have to overshoot our mark at first.

Remember, you don't have to respond to everything.

If she sends you a note, begging you to leave your home so she can stay there, you don't have to respond to that in any way.

My L and I talked about the couples counseling. I need to play along to a certain extent and not make her out to be too N/BPD... .  That's a tall order. My L suggested that I reply to stbx that it is too painful for me right now to have you in the house and that the couples counseling both our attorneys set up is to work on ways to develop healthier communicate so after we're DIVORCED we can cooperate for the benefit of the kids. Also, we have a meeting to discuss the continuation of our business next week. Anyway, I told her after the meetings next week if she needs to return sooner that might be best. She has time to return again next month - by then we could schedule a settlement meeting.

Both my kids have spent time with her in the past 2 days. She's been a perfect angel. She's not obsessing about me or the divorce. Of course, her L warned her that bad behavior will not help your case - a good boundary.


So true. I'll try to resist. Again, old habits die hard.

Good to remember she is testing your boundaries to see how good they are. Blame the court - can't do it because it is against the court order - I can't visit your hotel either. Cooking for the kids in a private hotel room is also against the order - public place only. Too bad about saving face - don't forget that her behaviour caused this order to be in place - and for a good reason!

Exactly. Most of the reason she is behaving herself is the order of protection.

My L said the same thing. She thought it would look like I wasn't cooperative if I didn't go, so I went for the first initial session (we each went by ourselves once). N/BPDx must have hated it too, because he didn't press for it to go further. It was also $250/hr (!) for nothing.

If you do have to go, think of it like a deposition, or at the very least, as though you are cultivating an expert witness. It's possible that if your ex dysregulates, or throws a fit, the counselor could be called forward as a witness. If it ever gets to that... .  

It's unlikely stbx will get too out of line in front of the counselor. She and her sister are doing their best to explain the disturbing series of events that took place in December. Her sister's emails describing how stbx got drunk and hit their mother and their mother called the police. Also, why she ODed. Of course, not taking any responsibility just making it clear it happened because I would not allow her to rant at me for hours on end via Skype so I reduced contact to email only. She and her sister are in damage control mode. Won't help much I suspect.

Stbx is making it clear she wants to continue our mutual business. Her career is strongly connected to this business. It's an online business and I take care of the technology part- in other words I can shut down the servers and she knows that. Again, the business must continue for a while until I can develop other sources of income. I'm fine with that with limits. Stbx and I do not have to have a lot of contact for the business to work. Very nice from that perspective. My L and I are carefully strategizing to determine the terms of continuing the business.

Then there's the kids - S16 and D17. They understand why I must divorce their mother. S16 is having dinner with her for the third time tonight. He tells me she's behaving herself. D17 is really busy so she's only met stbx once. I'll gently remind them to be careful and set limits with her.

She plans to return home next week after the couples counseling on Monday and the business discussion on Tuesday. She wants to return next month to finalize things - at least at this point in time... .  I think her L has made it clear that there are no real alternative options that are good for her... .  The saga continues.

We always remind our members that settlements seldom happen until the disordered person has no other options left.  That is the case here and then there is the added factor that the court has stepped in as the authority to set limits.  She can still potentially and subtly sabotage your efforts but hopefully any such attempts won't greatly affect the final outcome.

One thing to consider is the purpose of the counseling sessions - the stated purpose, and the actual intent of each participant.

In your case, the stated purpose is to help you communicate better regarding the kids.  Maybe that can happen, and it will be good.

That's probably also the counselor's goal.

Your wife's purpose might be the same, or different;  for example, her goal might be to show how reasonable she is, or to get you to agree to something.

Your goal might also be to improve communication, and/or maybe to just sit through the meeting so you are complying with what is expected of you.  I would suggest you keep your expectations low, and don't talk much.

I agree. My L and I discussed this. It's sort of smoke and mirrors at this point but if there's a chance it'll help that's fine. I'll be very careful not to get in too deep in terms of agreeing to stuff and I'll avoid the blame game. In other words, I'll be exactly who I am. Stbx on the other hand will be who she needs to be to keep up appearances (Dr. Jekyll) - her authentic self (Ms. Hyde) will likely not show up.

Some useful phrases... .  

"Let me think about it."

"That's interesting."

"I'm not sure I understand - what do you mean exactly?"

"Let's sleep on it."

And stick to behaviors and each one's history of behaviors.  Most counselors don't want diagnostic labels mentioned, especially if there's no diagnosis.  Expect her to deny or minimize and downplay.  Hey, anyone would do that, but hers were not the typical behaviors and so they do exist and do matter.  Likely, though, the counselor will want to focus more on the future and any positive aspects, not the past.

She will want to wipe the slate clean and move forward, as in, "Now I know, I'll change going forward, no need for all this."  Sorry, the day to do that has long since passed and you two now deal with what is and a do-over isn't happening.  That's the focus, how to manage your separate but somewhat connected lives going forward.  If she wants to change, great, you're very happy is she seeks meaningful therapy or counseling and improves her life and her relationship with the children but she should not have the expectation it will change your relationship with her.  She would have to do it for herself or therapy would ultimately fail.

FD you summed up what my L and I discussed. I have a really good L. She gets my situation. I've made it very clear that the marriage is over. My L suggested that if the T talks to each of us separately I show her the behavior pattern spelled out in the order of protection. Also, that I make it clear that I want to develop a way for stbx and I to communicate where we both can feel safe and comfortable so we can maintain a relationship to support our kids and our mutual business.

My S16 tells me his mother is telling him how much she appreciates me and what a great job I've done raising he and his sister. She said she plans to cooperate with our business (again benefits her too - big time) and to continue to support our kids. I believe this is true to an extent. She has some very good qualities and to all but the most intimate people she appears to be a wonderful, intelligent women with a good heart. It's easy to be lulled into complacency as I've been for many years because of her amazing ability to keep up appearances to outsiders... .  I only need to think back to some of the stuff she's done to quickly recover and remain vigilant.

Stbx continues to honor the order of protection. She's having lunch with a friend and then going shopping and to dinner with our D17 and S16 today. She's had dinner with our S16 4 times this past week. D17's been to busy and out-of-town for school stuff. He told me she's behaving. He also told me she showed him the wording on the Order of Protection where she hit him and threatened to send him back to the US from Japan on his own- just drop him off at the train station. He, of course, told her he was not fearful of her. Again, not surprising. She's also told me via email how hurt and confused he is because of my action. I don't spend a lot of time explaining I just remind him I'll doing the right thing in the long run - even for your mother. He seems to understand and he doesn't press me to change my position.

Her additional ploy is a serious of letters from her sister and our business partner- I received the 3rd one today (obviously stbx helped her write the letter). They continue, understandably, to wonder how they can trust me after what I did to stbx- secretly serving her at the airport, order of protection and before that I cut verbal communication in December. Again, of course, according to them her behavior was the result of my actions. Classic. Typical of a persuasive blamer. Stbx can never recognize her part in all of this. Frustrating.

We have a couples counseling meeting to work on communication tomorrow and a meeting with our attorneys to discuss the business on Tuesday. She plans to return home on Thursday or Friday. Before she leaves I want her to agree to the "big stuff". Again my number one priority is the kids' wellbeing. To that end it is best to keep our home until they are both off to college which will be about Sept. 2014 for D17 and Sept. 2015 for S16. For the next 2.5 years income is need to accomplish this. That will also give me time develop sources of income which do not rely on our mutual business. She's mentioned she's willing to come back in March for a settlement meeting. Two steps forward and one step back all the way to sweet freedom... .  

How will you respond to your business partner?

I reassure her that I'm working to make this transition as smooth as possible and that I want the best outcome for all of us. I told her that I know I put her in a difficult position with her sister (my stbx) by using her emails (to get the order of protection). Also, that when stbx and I are together there is very serious conflict. This conflict was too much for me to handle. I could no longer deal with it emotionally. When stbx and I are together frequently things get very bad and this conflict is harmful to our kids. To keep us all safe under the circumstances I felt I had no other option. Again, I reassured her I would do my best as we move forward. It's like a dance with the devil!

I see.  I forgot that your business partner was also your wife's sister... .  

I think blood is thicker than water.  You can explain it like you did, but probably her sister will side with her no matter what.

True. I understand that and accept it. She'll also know that continuing the business is siding with her sister and helping her sister. I hope cooler minds prevail.

A house is a house, home is where you are and what you make of where you are and who you are with.

Yes, it might be nice to keep the house, that can help a sense of normalcy, especially since for the last few years it has mostly been a place of peace and stability.  (For some others here the marital home was a place of stress and chaos, it was not hard to move and start a new life elsewhere without being reminded of the history of conflict.)  It's just another facet of your lives that may or may not work out but the lives of you and your children are the highest priority as I'm sure you know.

FD in order to follow through with what I did (get her served in the airport and get an order of protection in place) I had to get to the point that I was willing to let go of the business, the house if needed etc... .  Staying married was absolutely no longer acceptable. I still feel that way. Stbx will try to turn the tables and gain back control but I will no longer be controlled or manipulated as I've been in the past for the sake of the kids, our assets and business. The kids and I will be fine. Likely, the rest will be fine too. Massive change is inevitable. I heard a quote today that really summed it up- "If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room." Divorcing a pwN/BPD is definitely living on the edge!

Stbx bought an iphone for our S16 today for his birthday. They're at dinner and she's pressuring him to talk me into letting her in the house to get a blouse and clothes. I said no. We need a court order to allow that. I told him strictly and asked if she's behaving herself. He called and I told him to ask her to tell him which clothes and he could drop them off at her hotel. If she comes it could be really bad for her. She'd be in violation of a court order. I then asked if I'm on speaker and he said yes. I told him to bring her to the hotel and come home. I'm not surprised she'd pull this manipulative tactic on our S16. If he ends up bring her here I will call the police. I warned her. I don't think he will but ... .  She's a master at the art of manipulation... .  I can wait for her to return to her country ... .  for good.

She's smart enough to figure out that if she wants those clothes, all she had to do was write you an e-mail telling you which ones and where they are.  And she's been living for years in a different country - somehow managing without those clothes.

So yes, this is another attempt to manipulate you.  It's sad it involved your son, but it sounds like he understands what's going on, and he's been doing OK without his mom all these years... .  

I just called to check on my son. They're at her hotel. She's really pressuring him and telling him that I'm being unreasonable. She not only needs some clothes but stuff in the office. I told him again that she can not come back here. If she does the police will be called. Now he's caught in the middle. I told him to come home now. She needs to talk to her L about coming to this house. Man, that women is insufferable... .  I hope she gives up soon or I'll have to call my friend to help him- he's likely in her room ... .  again a violation of the order... .  I'm really POed.

Tell your lawyer what she's doing.  He may advise you to inform the court.

Maybe also time to end contact between her and the kids.  You set a boundary and she is violating it;  you need to maintain it or she'll go further.

I just got word my S16 is leaving her room. I texted and told him this will be really bad for her if you stay there. She's in violation of the agreement. My D17 had dinner with S16 and her. D17 left early cause stbx barely asked how D17 was doing - she just ranted about how bad I am. D17 said stbx only cares about herself. I've known that for years. D17 said she just couldn't handle it and made an excuse to leave. She was demanding to see them every night this week... .  No happening.

I'm ready to stop the business and move on w/o her forever. I really don't see how we can maintain the business. Sucks but I can't deal with her at all anymore.

I'll contact my L in the morning. I really don't feel like doing the couples counseling either- what a joke... .  

She is violating the court order and acting against the kids' best interests - family issues.

She may still be able to act right where the business is concerned.

I worked with my wife before we were married and part of the time while we were married.  Like many people with BPD, she does very well in a structured environment.  Now she's working in a government office and I haven't heard of any problems.

I would guess that your wife might also be able to act right in a business environment, just not in a family environment, where relationships are intimate.

If you can separate those two - establish clear boundaries and maintain them - it might be possible to continue to deal with her on a business basis, at least til you are able to figure out a good way to exit the business relationship without problems.

Thanks Matt. Maybe. I hope so... .  I'll continue to play the game a while and make the rules.

A typical procedure is sometimes called a Peace Visit where the other person comes with a police officer (who ensures the peace) to collect personal items.  However, the police have other things to do and generally get antsy after 15-30 minutes.  I can see that you're trying to avoid that, after all she doesn't live there but just visits, but your lawyer may tell you that she may get a visit to collect her things.  It would be best to box up her things and have them delivered but your lawyer may have opinions on which options are appropriate.

She's already trying to paint your actions as unreasonable.  It's tough, she's really ramping up the emotional pressure.  She will paint this as her being blocked from her Special Home.  It would be a lot harder if she had been living there.  You may have to remind even the officials that she basically lives in another country and only visits periodically.

She just tested one boundary by bringing S16 back to her hotel room and there was no consequence. In her mind, that boundary was weak. She is likely going to be testing the PO about visiting the house big time now. If your L says it's ok for her to do a peace visit (here they call is Domestic Assistance), be aware that she will see that as two tests that she won and you failed.

I'm also thinking that the children are close to being adults.  As older teens it's possible the court won't see their mother convincing one or both to ignore their protection as a violation meriting significant action.  You can probably enforce your boundaries but it's not as simple with the kids.  As always, follow your lawyer's advice.

It's really hard on my S16. He wants to save her. Last night she repeated a pattern where she took the kids to dinner barely ate anything and drank 4 glasses of wine. She's small so that's a major hit to her system. She started out OK having a "normal" conversation and then as the evening progressed and the wine kicked in it twisted into a distortion campaign against me. My daughter made an excuse and simply left. Then my son was alone with her. She pressured him to ask me to let her in the house. I refused. He took her back to her hotel. She carried on with her ranting and crying. I told S16 to simply leave or I would have to get other people involved and your mother will get in more trouble. He finally did.

I told S16 more about the disorder when he came back as calmly as I could. He agreed to see a T in the very near future. He wants to learn ways to better deal with her. He broke down crying. It's really hurting him.

I have my first face-to-face meeting today with her and a couples counselor since she was served. Not looking forward to it at all. I'll play the game though and be cool. Tomorrow we have another meeting with the Ls and a business L to see how the business can carry on under the circumstances. I'm feeling the pressure.

Maybe your kids would benefit from reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells".

So she became intoxicated and violated the order of protection... .  don't sugar coat it.  Her alcohol intake and subsequent behavior is exactly why you got the order of protection.  Your son doesn't need to be caught in the middle like this any more.

Exactly. I'm going to talk to my L this morning. Stbx has another dinner planned with S16 tonight. D17 makes excused not to go. I'm sure S16 is going just to for her sake not his. She bought him an iphone yesterday and pumps him up by make all sorts of promises related to his future etc... .  He's walking on eggshells big-time. It's as if she's grooming him to become her new emotional support system. Sick. This sucks.

Boundaries.

Some boundaries were established, by you and by the court.  She violated those boundaries.  If you don't maintain them now - which I think means no more contact between her and the kids - then they don't mean anything, and behavior is acceptable to you.

Especially now, you need to enforce the boundaries. I hope your L gives you good counsel about this, because this is probably the hardest time for you to strike hard on the boundaries. It is/was for many of us. Being a non sorta sets us up to have similar patterns when dealing with this kind of thing, and a lot of us can be too passive and let stuff slide. You've done a remarkably good job with your plan, now you have to watch all the nuts and bolts and make sure none of them start to loosen! The boundary (PO) is to protect you and your kids, and she has shown that she has no problem harming your son. That's serious -- if you can use the law to help enforce that boundary and deliver a consequence, now is the time for that. It's hard to do, but it will save you much grief in the long run if you make it clear what you're prepared to do.

It's heartbreaking to hear about your son, and I imagine that has to rip your heart to shreds too. How wonderful that he is open to seeing a T, and how lucky S16 is to have you help guide him through this.

When I started this process of leaving N/BPDx, people kept mentioning codependence, and I dabbled in the reading but didn't see myself in it. Looking back, I have no idea how that could be -- I read Codependent No More and it's clear as day. Getting S16 into therapy and helping him connect those dots could save him from marrying the same kind of person, which as many of us know, can wreck a life in spectacular ways. Just the 4 glasses of wine for dinner, and her behavior, and S16's reaction -- a therapist will know in an instant that codependence is in play, and hopefully your son will get the tools he needs to help him develop better, healthier behaviors and boundaries when this stuff shows up in other people.

Great advice LnL. I want my kids to develop better ways of dealing with and heading manipulative people off at the pass. My D17 is learning to set boundaries. She originally planned to go to dinner with stbx this evening but declined after the crap she pulled last night. She simply told her she was tired and had homework. Stbx accepted it. I think kids can become empowered if they set and maintain boundaries. I'll get both kids in to see a T as soon as possible. S16 definitely needs work in the boundary setting department. Also, I'm going to get the Walking on Eggs Shells book for them. Stbx leaves this Saturday- can't wait!

Jai Yen:

Like you, I am in the middle of a high conflict international divorce (Mexico) with 2 kids (now D19, S22).  The "situation" started hitting "critical" nine years ago.

However, my s2bx is a low-functional uBPD+dOCD.  My children have been very supportive of me and very cold to their momster. 

There a second part of the boundry equation and that is who should be taking care of who.  I explained to my children that I do not expect them to take care of me at this point in their lives.  It was my responsibilities to take care of them.  I used "first person" because I knew I could not use "mom".  It would be too direct.

The kids knew what I meant and understood that their mother had issues that she refused to address.  With teenagers, the points have to be indirect but short.  Let them talk, try not to appear judgemental.  The ideas have to be constructed by them, you just need to supply the materials.

Fortunately stbx is with the kids several times a year for only 2~4 weeks. After she leaves a calm falls over the land if you know what I mean. The kids both clearly recognize their mother brings on the chaos. I provide the calm. This is hows its been most of their lives. Fortunately, I raised them. She's influenced them to be sure but not to the point that they can't recover.

Dealing with PDs is hard enough for adults. Teenagers are dealing with plenty of too many of their own issues to be manipulated and cajoled by their own mother. I've carefully let them in on what is likely the matter with their mother. I explained in a clinical way and provided them with websites and other materials. I tell them not to mention to her that she has a problem as this will cause more problems for you. In other words, her problem is just that - her problem. You didn't cause it and you can't fix it. The only one you can change is you. I think overall, even witnessing the drastic measures I've taken to extract myself from this marriage, the kids are doing fine. I'll continue to provide them the resources they need to find healthy ways to deal with their mother in the future. My hope is what they learn through this experience will serve them well with all their future relationships.

Hello, I am writing here since my divorce is taking place in Italy.  I  just would like to say that I think something should be done at international level to make aware therapists about this pathology, especially those that have to take a stand in tribunals on child custody cases. Most therapist don't even know how to spot a borderline/psychopath and always take their side, because they fall into their trap, while we try to explain the terror we have been through. Instead of believing us, therapists interpret our concerns as a bad disposition from our part towards the ex husband (psychopath)/father of the child. I think it's about time that the public becomes aware of this issue, because after all, I don't see why we, the victims, should seek a therapist while the torturer (ie. the psychopath) is the one in real need of psychiatric care. I also think it's time to regularly introduce in civil cases the fmri and neurological tests, to prove that there is some physical deficiency in the psychopath's brain, even if this proof is still controversial. At least it would introduce some doubts about their sanity and give us more leverage in order to get preventive measures for the safety of our children.

Concerning these neurological tests, do you know some specialized psychiatrist in Europe that is able to  carry forward these medical examinations?  The other test (Rorhschas, ecc... .  are completely useless with psychopaths).  Sorry for my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.

I just wanted to add to my previous post that I am referring to husband/ father psychopath and borderline because I am a woman, but my post applies as well to wifes/ mothers that have the same pathology.

Thank you.

Maggie01, I have no idea of how to get a test done that would prove that a person has a PD. Part of the reason it's been so hard for me through the years is my s2bx seems relatively normal to outsiders. In the house, like you, I've dealt with unbelievable behavior. I just discovered BPD about a year ago. Up until that time I made all sorts of excuses for her behavior - menopause, depression, cultural issues etc... .  Once I learned she likely had a PD I started to plan my divorce.

I thought about divorcing her 100s of times before but given the age of our kids I was worried the courts would award her custody and she would take the kids back to Japan. Japan is terrible when it comes to foreigners rights in family law cases. I wasn't willing to risk that. I'm glad now but I put up with far too much over the years. It's not over yet but getting closer day by day.

Are you worried your husband will get custody? You must not be Italian? Also your kids must be very young. I know of American men after they divorce in Japan taking their kids back to the US secretly so the Japanese wife has to come to the US to fight for custody in US courts. Can you and the kids "escape" to your country?

I had my first business meeting with my STBXw since she returned to Japan. The same STBXw I had served both divorce papers and an order of protection in the airport during a recent visit. She was not able to stay at our house. The no contact and order of protection were officially put away today- for now anyway. We agreed to continue the business. Our meeting went OK. She was trying very hard to keep me engaged longer than was needed. I understand. I stood my ground and told her we're really not talking about anything new and closed the meeting.

Her L emailed her a bunch of financial documents I prepared - a balance sheet (with recently appraised RE values), monthly expense report for the kids and me, an a P&L on our shared business and our rentals. She wanted me to explain these documents to her. She claims her L didn't understand them. I almost took the bait. I told her that divorce is a process not a one-time event. BTW when are you allowed to consider yourself divorced? Am I divorcing?

My L reminds me that it is important to disentangle financially sooner than later. I want to. Dividing assets and defining how to continue the business with safeguards for me to exit sooner than later if things go south again is really important... .  Once all the asset values are in place (need values from her end) I want to go through our Ls to negotiate a settlement. It's going to take some work but we'll get there. Fortunately, custody of the kids is a nonissue. How did this process go for you all?