BPDFamily.com

Has anyone had reasonable success with reconciling with their BPD spouse after a separation?  Was there limited or no contact during the separation?   How did communication restart?

I ask the question of how communication restarted because I get sporadic text messages from my wife with BPD.  Mundane stuff, but still... .  

So I talked to my uBPD wife for 30 minutes.   I have not seen her in 3 1/2 weeks.   Living separately at the moment.  We talked about her health issues. Usual stuff.   I am even more confused.

Communication starts how it always starts with a person with BPD - with their problems.

Did she ask you to do anything about her health issues? How did you respond?

Im confused because I thought you were in marital counselling yet you havent not seen her in 3 1/2 weeks And are you still in joint marital counseling?

We were in marital counseling last summer.   It was going well for 8 sessions until she sabotaged it by announcing that she didn't trust me and I hadn't earned her trust.   Maybe you have me confused with someone else on the message Boards.   

The conversation did start with her stuff.    All her stuff.  Yeah I know, I know.   I was always reminded that 'its not all about me" if I related anything I have going on personally with me.   For the past three weeks I have been trying to remember what actually is about me.

Okay, thanks for the clarificartion about the counseling. Not a surprise it didn't go well - it often doesn't where BPD is involved.  

I am still wondering - on your call last night did she ask you to do anything about her health issues and how did you respond?

She actually didn't ask me to do anything... .  my sense was that she was attempting to draw me out.   I always went to her MD appointments with her - at her request.   So like I was saying, I think she was/is looking for me to offer her some sort of support, probable just moral support.   He family is of no help to her, and her friends rarely are (she recycles her friendships on a regular basis - ALL of them) so I think she has anxiety that I am not right next to her at the moment.

She drove me away - what did she expect?

Kudos to you that you weren't drawn out.   |iiii

Next step will not being available if she directly asks for you to accompany her in the future. Feel free to give her "moral support" - in the form of validating comments as to her feelings about the challenges she faces - including those brought on because you don't take her to her appointments anymore.  

What are you doing for yourself now that you aren't taking her to her medical apps - and other things you used to do for her?

I am really not doing much for myself, other than not exposing myself to constant mixed messages and statements about what an inept husband I am.   Viewed in that light, I really am doing something for myself - I am not with her at the moment.

So she, my uBPD wife, called me just a short while ago to ask if I was transferring money to our direct account.  Apparently she still needs my money and knows today is payday.  She then tells me I am stressing her out because I asked if you wanted to have dinner sometime.   She tells me that I keep asking her.   This was the first time.

OK... .  I am so confused.  More than ever.  My uBPD wife called me back just now to tell me she hit a car in the parking lot of her doctor's office.   She is crying.  I ask what do you need me to help you with.   She tells me the stress is killing her.   What she considers to be stress is what I consider a disagreement on the mound at a little league game.

She just told me 20 minutes ago I need to not stress her out - I have barely spoken to her in 4 weeks.  I have been nothing but pleasant and upbeat.   She said I can't be bothering her.

If that is the case, then why call me the very second you need help?  Maybe she really does consider me to be superman - she said that a month ago.

I am not sure what to make of this.

uBPD wife called a third time.  To say she was OK but couldn't understand why I wanted to go to dinner because it wouldn't change anything.  I said "OK then forget I asked".  She continued by saying that she could not understand why I would ask.  I left it at that.  She said it would not change anything.

Help me here someone... .  is this push/pull?   She has always immediately called when ever  anything stressful happens as if I am her only means of support - any kind of support.  I actually am the most supportive person by far in her life for many many years.

Why on one hand would my lovely uBPD wife call me so I can console her, and then in the next breath say nothing is going to help resolve the issues before us?

I have read plenty on BPD by now... .  nevertheless I am befuddled.

I'm no expert and I am in pretty much the EXACT situation you're in right now. What this is (to my knowledge) is her panicking. My uBPDh can cycle in a matter of hours, going from "I know how much I hurt you, I want a chance to reconcile" to "I was thinking about dating other women" and "I've never fought for anyone, never will".

She needs control so badly and she'll do whatever she needs to in order to get your attention and then reject you as soon as possible because in her mind, she can't possibly be good enough to deserve you and if that's true, then you're crazy/stupid/unworthy because you want to be with her, so she justifies pushing you away. Which causes her to panic and pull again. It's classic Push/Pull.

It's weird. It's impossible to understand. It's exasperating. It's scary. It's BPD.

I should make a t-shirt!

To end on a more helpful note, my therapist gave me something to say the next time this happened that I can't wait to try out. The line is "I can't be both your support system and the object of your resentment". I want to add, "Pick one." Of course, this is all based in logic but it does point toward setting a limit in a way.  |iiii

Oh wow are you on the money.

My uBPD wife called me again a 4th time and a 5th time today to tell me I had an important phone call.  She also sent three text messages in between those phone calls.   

During the third phone call she tells me how she has learned so much during her "Recovery Support Group" at church.   She tells me how she has learned so much and is changing her life because of them.   Says she is giving up all drinking and staying away from anyone that drinks.  I must add here that she has maybe one a month and I have 2 drinks on either a Friday or Saturday night.  I am beginning to understand this BPD problem with "sense of self".   She does take on the thoughts and opinions of whomever she spends time with.  This pervasive feeling of emptiness is why she continues to attend church 4 or 5 days a week (NOTE PLEASE... .  I am a Christian myself) and it never seems to be enough. 

My heart breaks for my wife... .  no matter how hard anyone tries to save her, she won't let them and does not even realize that she won't.

It has to be difficult - and particularly lonely - out there in that cabin for 3 weeks.   Your wife is lonely too. You love each other and miss each other - regardless of her painting you black as "inept" and you being fully aware of her BPD. The phone calls today are definitely her effort to pull you back. 

As I recall from reading your story,  this has been your longest separation.  What do you

think will happen next? 

What will happen next?  I am not sure... .  it may take a while longer.  On the bright side, the cabin does have satellite TV.    I cannot go back with her at this minute... .  my my is exhausted.   Also,  she has not asked me to come back.   She said there is nothing to talk about between us and then calls me 5 times!   You would think that EVEN my wife with uBPD would see the IRONY in that!

I am trying to clear my head honestly.   I think its combat fatigue of a sort.

What she is saying and doing looks like this to me:

There is nothing between you and me, so don't put the expectations and responsibilty on me to behave like a loving partner.  I have nothing to give you and don't want to make that commitment to you.  BUT... .  I still need you for things, and I am testing to see what I can get from you WITHOUT being required to be a loving, commited partner. 

Will you still comfort me when I am lonely, afraid, or upset?  I will call and test it out and see.  Sometimes I will even call about insignificant things and closely study your response so I can see how receptive you are to me before I start asking for your help.

Will you still be responsible for me and help meet my needs financially even though I am not willing to be a loving, commited partner?  I will test it out and see.  Sometimes I will just come out and ask, after I have had other conversations with you and feel it is safe to do so.  Other times, I will manipulate and cry & tell you all the horrible things that happened to me to prime you to give me what I want and/or OFFER it yourself.  Sometimes this is not even on a conscience level - as I have been using and manipulating people so long, sometimes I don't even NOTICE when I am doing it.  Sometimes I DO notice I am doing it.

If you start questioning what is going on, say that I am sending mixed signals OR start moving toward me and us reconciling because you think there is hope after my behaviour - I will swiftly lay blame on you.  I will remind you that I TOLD you there was nothing there from the beginning (as though this response from you because of my behaviour came soley from you and not because I sent any signals from my end.) 

Sometimes I will move toward you with responses that ARE encouraging of reconcile, or even reconcile - especially if I am at a needy point in my emotional cyle and even more so if you set boundaries that require me to be in a loving, commited relationship to be able to get things from you.  If you set those boundaries and I can't just use you as easily - then I could potentially reconcile for a season - until I get past that needy, panicky place and I don't NEED you anymore.  Then, because of the guilt and because I look like a shallow, abusive human being - I will start finding flaws in you to blame as to why I just HAVE to get out of this relationship - yet AGAIN.  Sometimes I can't even see I am doing this.  Sometimes I CAN.

Your level of ability to set boundaries with me to:

- stop me from using you

- stop me from running all over you

- stop me from keeping you in the turmoil of this relationship with no control or sound footing

is directly tied to your ability to SEE that I CAN and DO all the things I do to meet MY needs and NOT because of my feelings/love for you.  As long as you continue to think I do all these things and send these signals because there is something there - I can get things from you.  The harder it is for you to believe that we could have gone through all we did/spent all the time in the relationship we did and for me NOT to feel the way you do/feel empathy & real love for you - the easier my using and manipulation over you will be and the LONGER I will be able to keep you in this game as ONE of the avenues I USE to help ME, support ME, comfort ME... .  and on and on.

One of the first things I learned about my uBPDw is that irony, hypocrisy, double standards, etc. were all thing that she could see in others actions - especially mine - but not in herself.   I suppose our egos promote that blindness in us as well from time to time, but we do have the ability to open our eyes when prompted.  A pwBPD simply cannot - it's an ingrained self protection mechanism.   And it's subconscious - just like all the behaviors that Lady31 described above.  Our pwBPD have no concept that what they are doing is "wrong" as they are doing - sometimes there's introspection but then they just shift to blaming you for being that way.  Trying to get a pwBPD to rationalize or account for the behavior is a fools errand. 

Take your time. Detach from her pull efforts. Keep your boundaries. Practice your validation when you do connect.  

Tuum and Lady31,

thank you.  I agree with what you both say.  If she says there is nothing there and she is not willing to live up to any commitment, I stay away.  It is why I still have my family home (cabin really) in the woods.  She can't touch it and I will not relinquish it, except to my sons.   It has always been my safety valve and it has troubled her that I have an out and am willing to use it when necessary.

I post this business not because I am convinced I want to reconcile with my uBPD wife; rather, I post this as a form of a reality check to ensure that I do not get fogged in.

I am truly not sure what I will do.  I do know two things for certain:  1. it will ultimately be my choice as to the fate of the marriage, and 2. I will take my damn sweet time in anything I do about it.    Of these things I am certain.

I must also add an interesting tidbit from one of her phone calls yesterday: I heard her change her tune from "I want a divorce" to yesterday's statement "I am not ready to fix our broken marriage".   Subtle but distinct. 

I am on my guard this time.


I hope.

OMG Mike!  Yes!  It is a definite sign she is wanting to recycle - or at least keep the door open to you.  This could be another way of her giving you "hope" for a future of the marriage so that if you view the two of you in that frame of mind - she may be able to get more out of you.

Glad to hear you kept your place out of her reach and have a safety net for you and your sons.

Definitely interesting subtle switch - and worded in such a way that YOU are wanting to pursue the reconciliation of the marriage and SHE is the one in control/putting the breaks on it.  This is how mind control & manipulation happen.

Lady31,

my sons are grown.  The house/camp has been in the family for 5 generations.  My uBPDwife has never experienced continuity in her family as far as living in one place.   As far as her attempts to recycle me... .  I think you are right... .  either that or she still wants financial support.

I mentioned the subtle switch in language she used yesterday.  I did say Happy Valentines Day to her in a text.   She said thank you.  In years past she would have expected a whole grand production for the holiday (?).  A grand production that I always screwed up, no matter what I did.  I should let that go I guess, saying stuff like that is sour grapes.  My wife's BPD reaction to my efforts on any holiday and especially (gasp) her birthday was always one of dissatisfaction and criticism. 

The strange thing was that she sent me a text message at midnight last night to say thank you again for the Happy Valentines Day text.  Not typical for her.   Unusual actually, strange even.

Hi Mike,

More "pull" behavior I expect, but remember a pwBPD doesn't act like one all the time - they do respond to a change - sometimes - especially if you make changes.

I used to fall iinto an anxiety pit when criticized over not getting things right on holidays for my W.  i dont get anxious (much) anymore - I dont walk on eggshells about whether I did the "right thing". I can still get the criticism, but rather than reacting defensively or apologetically, I just validate that what I did didn't work for her - several times if she keeps pressing it - but she doesn't press so hard anymore - I am doing slightly better since Ive figured out her tastes/expectations better after seven years of marriage

Your W probably wasn't expecting much since you had been gone for 3 weeks - the text was in fact quite a bit given the context. A pwBPD is not bereft of emotion - they can understand that it's the "thought that counts" - my W does - but when triggered and dysregulated, they "lose" that capacity.  

BTW, I nailed it for Valentines Day this year!   :)

Well that didn't go well.  I need a score card to keep up with with my uBPD wife's moods.She calls me to ask why I took $300 of the tax return for myself. 

A little background here... .  she has not earned a penny in 5 years.  I never had a problem with her not working.  What I did have a problem with was her controlling attitude toward money... .  my hard earned money.  I put $4,000 into our join account that I do not use this week.  I also carry her on health insurance, which she gets the most she can out of.

She says I control her with money - not sure how that works since I give her more than 2/3 of my income... .  even in the month we have been separated.  Now she can't wait to be free of me and every thing I stand for, including the way I control her with money.  She said she will be poor and happy with her low paying job - when she gets one - and without me.  OK I said.

If anyone was controlled with money, I was controlled with my own money.  I make plenty of it and she makes me fear her when I have $10 in my pocket.

To round out my series of phone conversations with her today... .  she tells me that she told her therapist and her pastor I left her a month ago!    She threw me out, insulting me and my sons in everyway possible, and then saying she wanted a divorce.   So I left... .  

Could it be that she didn't think I would leave?  Could it be that she didn't want a divorce and I called her bluff unknowingly?

My mind has gone off the tracks with this one.  WOW!  What the hell?

I am an engineer... .  I know big deal... .  but here is my problem:  I have read so much about BPD but I have a hard time with its irrational nature... .  this is my part of the problem.

So now I tell my uBPD wife that since she wants the marriage ended I will have my attorney draft papers for us to both review.  She flips out saying I thought we'd wait awhile.

I am lost.

My post above was incomplete... .  I guess my mind was scattered.   My uBPD wife was telling me how I stress her out and cause her medical problems and she reminded me that this was why she wants a divorce.   I said OK as long as the terms are as we discussed, I'd rather not fight with you.   She said  that I had my chance and now the terms would only suit her.

Now, this torqued me a little.  I told my uBPD wife that I would contact my best friend/attorney and file Monday morning.   She went in a full crying meltdown (for almost 10 minutes) saying that I thought we were going to wait a while to do that! 

Does she want a divorce or not?  I can't keep this up.  I love her but I will just file myself if she plans to keep me in limbo until she is good and ready.

I welcome any and all opinions.

My 3 previous posts today represent two different phone calls with my uBPD wife about two hours apart.   From the first phone call I got the impression from her that she actually did not want to to leave a month ago, and yet it was very clear to me that she did.  I was confused so I posed this - her statement that I walked out on her (after she told me she wanted a divorce.

She sent a dozen vicious text messages after that first phone call.  I called her again about two hours later.  She was berating me horribly, so I told her I would give her what she wanted by contacting my attorney Monday morning and having him file ASAP.   My BPD wife freaked out into a crying breakdown saying I must have never loved her.  I told her calmly that I understand her being upset, but I was only responding to her demand for a divorce.  I also told her that I love her but would not be  strung out in limbo forever.

I am not sure if I did anything right at all today.

Mike,

have you gotten the "Splitting: protecting yourself while divorcing someone with BPD or NPD" by any chance?

Some of what you're describing could take a quick turn for the worse; you might want to be forewarned AND forearmed. The book describes that if/when a pwBPD feels threatened, they may bring outrageous false accusations against you, they can get restraining orders or other legal actions started against you and then you are on the defensive.

The book advises about the dangers and also about how to try to navigate the waters, how NOT to trigger their feelings and then behaviors, so you can have the most peaceful divorce given the circumstances

I have already spoken to my attorney.   She practically begged me not to file for divorce, and made no attempt at reconciliation.   I have not seen her in 4 weeks and I am living 30 miles away.

I understand your situation, however the possibilities of false accusations of past "crimes" (going beyond the 4 week separation) that you might find yourself to be accused of ex-post is vast, so caution advised.

I was blown away to read some of the examples in the book. 

I will be cautious.   The strange thing is... .  if you caught my posts from today... .  I got the strong message that she doesn't actually want a divorce.  On the other hand... .  she hasn't made an overt attempt to reel me back in yet either.

My whole string of posts today are intended to explain why I am more confused than ever.   She is gaslight me by modifying events of 4 weeks ago when I left by trying to say today that she didn't want me to leave.   And then in a subsequent conversation, indicating that she is not hot to file for divorce.   

I have read everything I can get my hands on regarding BPD for the last 6 months and yet today baffles me.

Help.

Any and all:

is the behavior I described during my string of posts yesterday common to BPD in anyone else's experience?  I truly need feedback here.

Mike

I had a similar experience.  My wife asked and encouraged me for a divorce.  Even had me come to her T where her T told her we were toxic and needed a divorce.  Only her T beleived that and convinced my wife.  So now I get all the blame because I filed.  My answer to her was I respect your decision and your choices - yes I filed - but ultimatly it was your decesion because 1. you told me you haven't loved and resented me for years 2. You refused to got marriage counciling. 3. You decided to continue your EA and chose that over your family.  Needless to say even when I lay out my reasoning in black and white it still becomes all my fault.  I think she is having huge regrets and second thoughts but I'm sticking to my boundaries on #2 and #3. 

You know... .  I believe ny uBPD wife's T has directed her this way, based on my wife's recounting of the marriage situation.   A very warped recounting I am sure.   She is also in a Recovery Support Group where I believe she painted me as a satan worshipping monster - completely inaccurate.

She is an easy mark for influence by anyone other than me currently.   And yet... .  she now is backing off on a divorce.

Mike,

It's common behavior and therapy is often supportive. You will have to make your own decisions as to how to proceed.  What do you want to do?  

Sorry to seem to be leaving questions with you rather than answers.

I rented an apartment for two months last summer before returning to my marital home. I got the same "I begged you to stay" gas lighting as well.  

My W did go through some therapy at the time - I was told by her that her therapist recommended she separate from me - but who knows what was said. My church attendance is viewed as hypocritical.  

The thing is a pwBPD simply doesn't process things the same way as you and me. They have an extremely fine filter on facts that only let's the ones through that protect them the most. We all do that to some extent - but our "presence of mind" pushes back on the strictly emotional response.  

Many of us "nons", however, have our own emotional issues - primarily codependency - that fuel this machine.  It's what lead many of us to be in this relationship in the first place.

It seems to me Mike that in questioning your W's behaviors, you remain very attuned (stuck) to trying to finding ways to manage them/ mitigate them. - control them - and you can't.  You have to learn how to live with these behaviors - whether you stay or leave.

Well... .  I have given up the notion of controlling anything... .  I am tuned into them because I have read so much.   My questions come from a need to understand... .  it is the scientist in me.   

Let me put it this way... .  there is no way I will go back to her without an obvious change... .  and even then I will not give up my golden parachute.

I am amazed and confused by her behaviors and statements yesterday because they are outside my normal ability to understand... .  I have had to make a living on being rational, deliberate, thought out and gutsy... .  

she is none of the above... .  please do not consider my posts over the last 24 hours to be an indication that I am raising the white flag.

I have a need to understand... .  all you great folks here help me with that.

Dear Mike-Confused,

The problem is that you are an Engineer whose mind thinks 2+2=4 but

the world of BPD is irrational and hyper-emotional where 2=2 sometimes eaquals 4, sometimes 3,sometimes 5 depending on the intensity and type of feelings boiling inside her. You can not understand such irrational behavior by rational methods. You can only feel them and conclude in broad terms,such as "she is pissed now",'she is anxious now',  "she is fearful now" so on and so forth. You have to supply her your rationality to keep her irrationality in check. In other words, you have to rent her your sense of self.

Rule is SET, that is Support, Empathy and Truth. MIKE sir, mind is not Math... Mind is poetry.

I read poetry too... .  at the moment... .  I am sick of her inconsistency.  My heart breaks for her and I love her deeply, but I am ready to cut the rope and let her fall.   

In very basic terms, it is all give to her and no take from me - there is nothing left.    She either makes some progress or I will never see her again.


Based on these intense conclusions by me, I am trying to make sense of what appears to be a shift in her attitude.  I understand the basics of BPD.   I am simply trying to forecast what may come next, and whether I fish or cut bait.   

Mike,

In life, we somtimes,get an unfair deal... such as being born with handicap, born in dirt poor family, married to a person who has cancer and you get the point. The decision we have to make is whether to accept and continue in such relationship or let it go? That depends on how much love you still have left for her after her behavior has spent most of it. If I were in your shoes,

I will sit down with her and make it clear in no uncertain terms that she needs to get into therapy if she wants to keep this relationship. If she refuses, cut the cord and set yourself  free. Freedom is your birthright.

I love her.  She is in therapy... .  done all this... .  she ius using therapy to support her currently warped point of view.

What I am asking is:  based on my posts yesterday regarding her shift in behavior... .  does this indicate that she is attempting or will attempt to recycle?  I am trying to be prepared.  I am not willing to recycle a damn thing without major concessions on her part.   

I apologize if I was not clear about what I am trying to determine.  I appreciate you input... .  it is very helpful.

Mike,

I am still sorting thing out too. (I primarily post on the "parents of" since our main pwBPD is my husband's daughter), but we suspect his ex is BPD and he had a disaster of a divorce, terrible consequences in relationships with both of his daughters till today and his ex comes out lilly-white and he is still the monster 20 years later - I mean she destroyed his whole life, his reputation civil AND christian circles, finances you name it.

But, to your questions:

I think that the phrase "I hate you, don't leave me" describes it all pretty good. You may have even read the book with this title.

I think that whatever they want or don't want, they can't stand the feeling of being rejected. So, if she was divorcing you, that might be ok, but since you might be doing the "divorcing" in her mind - by filing, that feels to her like rejection and no matter what she wants ultimately, she can't stand the feeling of being rejected or abandoned by you. And that would be true even if she was doing the abandoning and felt for some way that you are doing it. Confusing, right?

Regarding the non-logic in their behavior, I find it SO confusing and frustrating too. What helps me is to stop myself from analyzing the situation logically, and try to think what is happening (emotions, context, circumstances) and I try to fit it into the patterns the books on BPD describe. I kind of created this "BPD logic" map in my mind and try to categorize their behaviors according to that map.

Regarding recycling, that's a hard one. I think she will do this to you for sure if you let her. As to the future of your relationship - it may end, or continue, but you will have to be in the driver seat, and the outcomes are dependent upon your new skills regarding BPD (validation, boundaries etc.), and your w's willingness or ability to adapt to the changes.

All the best to you! The theoretical world is so nice, it really gets messy/confusing when it comes to actual interactions!

Her emotions are running wild right now.  I have read... .  "I hate you, don't leave me".    You are right about rational thought and logic not working for me.   She said I left her by walking out... .  true, after she punched me and locked me out of the house.   She melted down after I said I'd make it easier on her by filing for divorce - she has said for two months now she wants a divorce.   Not sure when though.

I suspect she is buying time hoping her emotions switch again before she makes another recycling attempt.


I am tucked away in the woods.  Peaceful, but strangely missing her.

Separated on month today from my uBPD wife.  I have not seen her.  I do really miss her - most of the time.  My posts over the last few days indicate how she has twisted the story to be that I left her and she didn't want me to go.  Not how I remember it.  I also posted a detail of how during one of our phone conversations my uBPD wife was deriding me to such an extent that I said I would take the initiative and file for divorce this week.  Upon that statement from me she had a full crying meltdown saying we didn't have to rush. 

I expressed my awe of such a warped, dis-regulated reaction to the site members.  She is having surgery on her lower back to fuse two disks.   It does need to be done.   She can "FOCUS" on nothing else.   I understand her consternation over any surgery.   She told me we can maybe deal with things after she recovers post surgery.

"Maybe deal with things"?  I am just not communicating with her.  She has sent a couple texts to tell me about her aunt planning to stay with her after surgery and when her pre-op visit is.

Is this woman going to pull the trigger-so to speak?  I am not going to stay in limbo until it suits her.

Thoughts?

Tough times Mike.  An "anniversary" like this is tough.


As I read your post reiterating her "bizarre" behavior", I reflect on my own struggles with similar behavior by my own W.  I think that since spending time on this site, I have now reached an understanding that this is entirely normal and rational behavior for them.  It's not a place one gets to easily - it isn't really an epiphany - just a slow realization that finally hits a threshold where a modicum of peace and certainty amidst the chaos is found.  

I think that if you look closely at what your W is saying to you, trying to view it from her emotional laden perspective, wouldn't you agree that you did in fact "leave" her? Isn't your "taking the initiative and filing" AND "not communicating with her" part of that? Can you see that because she doesn't really want you to leave that she might "think" she begged you not to leave - even if she only said it once - or in fact didn't say it at all?  And because she FEELS this way, it is therefore FACT, so yeah, there's no need to rush to divorce?  

Is she going to pull a trigger?  I dont know.  Unlikely.  My W threatened to do so.  I never heard from a lawyer.   Did I get legal advice on my situation? Yes.  You should too - as preparation - should she act.  You don't have to "stay in limbo" but depending on what YOU want, you certainly don't have to be the one that pulls the trigger yourself, as long as you've taken appropriate precautions.

So she tried pulling you a bit with the details about her post op situation. What do you think you are going to do with that?

tuum,


I am not going to do anything with her latest bait.  I can't, being painted black as I currently am, because my mere presence serves to annoy and anger her.

So do I just sit here and wait for her to make a move months from now?   That's not fair.   Moreover, I won't go back to her without a clear indication that she understands that she has a problem.  In other words, I have decided that if my lovely uBPD wife wishes to continue to believe and tell everyone that I am a bad guy with problems that ruined her life, well... .  she can continue to do that.

Without me.

I realize she may in fact never "fess up".   She is in therapy with someone that specializes in NPD and also, BPD.   If this T is worth a damn, she will or already has picked up on my wife's traits.   I can't bank on that.

My bottom line is that if she does come to me with the intent of reconciling, I won't do it unless I see some hope founded in concrete indicating that she can get some control of her emotions/BPD.

That is where I stand.  I can't relive the torment.

You know, my W went to therapy for several sessions - and on the surface - as she reports it - her therapist was "shocked" about how I was treating her - apparently insisting that my W even contact a lawyer to initiate the separation/divorce.  She wouldn't do it herself - said I needed to initiate the proceedings.  I held out a long time - several months - but I drew up a separation agreement - and had been holding it for 3 weeks when I suffered a particularly bad daily "you need to leave" dysregulation, so I pulled out the agreement and gave it to her.

Its been three months - and I've not been asked to leave again.  She hasn't even mentioned it.  

I'm not suggesting you "game play" with a separation agreement.   I was prepared to truly leave - I had in fact come back after leaving for 2 months - taking my own apartment in another neighborhood during last summer.  Giving my W the draft SA was done because since she was insisting she wanted me to leave - it was done to prepare for leaving.  It was not done maliciously nor with an intent to have her "change her mind" - even though the latter was what she did.  It was a truly dispassionate, emotionally detached act on my part - but felt strangely compassionate towards my W since she was so apparantly frustrated where we were "at".

What I am suggesting here is that only you are going to know what the next step is and when you need to take it.  You will take your own path - we are here to help you find it - it might be a bit brushed in and obscured but you will find it at just the right time. The pols on this site are great for brush clearing.

So, to be more specific, do you think you might visit her in post op? Think you will be able to keep your boundaries if and when you do?  :)o you think you will be able to validate the huge pile of feelings she will have?  

It WOULD be safer to stay in the woods. But as you say, "do you just sit here and wait for her to make a move months from now?"

I would like to visit her.  I have no problem maintaining my boundaries - a skill which has brought me countless verbal attacks from her.  My problem always was that I argued my point - something I am skilled at, but is useless against her emotional reasoning.  I do not think I will wait forever until she issue an edict.   I also doubt I would have a separation agreement; rather, it would be straight to a divorce proceeding.  We have little common property and no children together.

I am at the point where I will make no further effort until and unless she shows some level of awareness of her real issues and their impact on me/us.

This is such a helpful thread, thank you to everyone who is posting here.  I have been separated from my uBPDh since Thanksgiving and it has been such a rollercoaster ride.  It is definitely good to have a place of peace and safety away from him but I still get pulled into the chaos of his different schemas, he is cycling through all of them faster than ever.  There is so much push/pull going on its hard to keep up.  I go from angel to devil in the snap of the fingers. 

Mike_confused I can identify with you so much and feel your pain and frustration.  It is so hard to care for someone who is so controlled by a disorder that is very difficult to live with.  I know I won't go back unless he recognizes what he is suffering from and begins and commits to serious long term treatment.  I wish I could just change my thought processes and behaviors to be able to live with him even if he doesn't get help but I have my children to think about and their wellbeing and my wellbeing as well.  To take care of him and his disorder means giving up huge chunks of myself, my dreams and hopes, it is just not worth it unless he is willing to do something to get better.

I am sitting here wanting to be patient but afraid my only choice will be to end it permanently.  He is ranting and raving about divorce now because I haven't given in to his demands for immediate reconciliation so I can serve his every waking want and need. 

I was wondering, have you guys seen a pattern, even when in healthy adult schema that they use constant complaints of illness, aches, pains, headaches, heart trouble and so forth to get attention?  I can't recall a day in my 6 years with my uBPDh that he didn't have a physical complaint or ailment and expected me to dote on him and serve him like a sick child needing care and attention.

MaryJane,

Oh my God... .  my wife... .  my uBPD wife has not felt well in 5 years.   She is constantly constantly ill.  Fibromyalgia, severe migranes, had her gall bladder out... .  disk problems in her neck and now headed for back surgery to fuse 2 disks in he low back.  I feel for her tremendously, love her and want to make her better, but I can't.   I have given her massages every night for an hour for 4 years (I have aches too).  She uses poor health as a control.  I don't care she tells me, I abandoned her because I missed a doctor's appointment of her's (while at a meeting out of town so that I can earn a living to take care of her and her children, as well as mine).

She claims that by missing the appointment I let her down when she needed me the most.  I get that but she is a big girl - we all need to do what is necessary, in theory.

I have been separated from her a month as of yesterday (not legally, just at my family home in the deep woods).  Limited contact, mostly texts.  You have read the long string above I assume.

I guess what I am saying is that health appears to be a big weapon in the BPD arsenal.  To look at my wife you would not think she is ill - slim trim and tone.  She goes to a gym regularly.  I do believe that if you go to enough doctors you can find one that will tell you what you want to hear.  She has had at least two MD appointments every week for the three years of our marriage (I have fantastic health insurance).

Does any of this match what you are experiencing?

Mary Jane,

to your other statement:  I want to be with her, but I am not willing to totally give up my lifestyle and my dreams.  I will reconcile IF she shows an awareness of her BPD and takes steps to get better.  Like you, I fear that my only choice ultimately will be to end the marriage and walk away from her.

She promised me many things and has forgotten all of them.

Mike

one more thing MaryJane,

her constant, continual, chronic and never ending complaints of ill health have required me to tend to her like a sick child.   She has switched primary care doctor's several times until she found one that would cater to her.  This MD put he on cymbalta SUPPOSEDLY for her fibromyalgia... .  it made her CRAZIER than ever before, if that is possible.

She subsequently had a falling out with this MD, as if the MD was a friend, not a professional (there you go with no boundaries again).



Mike

mike_confused... .  

wow. we have some similarities... .  

my ex with BPD (i think) also has fibromyalgia... .  

i broke up with her feb 4th... .  no contact since, except for an email from her the day after of i guess her breaking up with me? haha, i dont know... .  you can read what i posted about her so far on here if you like:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=194877.msg12205256#msg12205256


anyway, the massages! oh my god, i would give my ex endless massages too cause she said she was in pain. even waking up early to give them even though i was so tired... a lot of times i would wish she would at least try to give me some sort of massage sometime... .  but it was really all just take and no give... .  i also think she uses her health as a means of control...

i remember when i had to give up my weekend to take care of her so she could get lasik eye surgery, and soon after that weekend, she broke up with me, to go back to her ex... i always felt that whenever she did something for herself or made some improvement, she would go out and try to make things work with someone else... she never really did put in as much effort with me as she did with others... .  

my ex also is like yours, slim, trim and tone... .  exercises daily, but will blame her flare-ups on me, will use her feelings of fatigue to control me, or to skip our plans to do whatever she wants... .  

even when i joined a fibro community support group on webmd, to try to udnerstand what she goes through and try to ake her feel like she's not alone with the community there, she never made any attempts to go on there, i would have to do everything, i would even post thigns for her and then read all the responses to her... .  

my ex is also on cymbalta, and she would say it decreases her libido. she uses sex as a tool i've learned... .  

the falling out you mentioned with her MD, my ex had something similar with her boss... .  he suddenly stopped giving her the attention he used to, and then she would complain about that and it would really affect her and she would say she's just gonna give him the cold shoulder if he ever tried talking to her or something... .  if i tried to tell her its a professional relationship and tried to comfort her or give her advice on it, she would just yell at me... .  (as an aside, i know she didnt have any romantic relationship with her boss, at least i'm 95% sure)... .  

anyway, just wanted to write cause we had that fibro commonality... .  

also, i'm curious, as soon into a relationship do these BPD people start playing the victim and talk about how all their ex's treated them terribly, or if they have health issues like fibro or just try to lure people in to be the hero?

As soon as I started dating my now wife (uBPD) she told me the horror stories of how she was treated in the past.   The hypochondria, or whatever it is, built up over time but did not fully materialize until right after we were married.

Yes, many pwBPD have an ongoing set of ills that are in constant need of attention.

Some of us "nons" get drawn into the "parental"l role of looking after our sick "child.". Some of us figure out that we can step back and for some inexplicable reason, a lot of the symptoms will disappear. It's hard though.

I do a lot of validating about my W's headaches, irritable bowel,  tiredness, even "feeling fat" - but less actual "action." Ending the constant catering didnt affect our intimacy in any significant way (although my W has always struggled with intimacy)  didn't make things any worse.

It's hard to accept that as much as our pwBPD "wants" this from us, they don't "need" it and in fact if we trip over ourselves to respond they actually respect us less. I still do a lot for my W - but there's a lot I don't do anymore.

Mike - you've been gone a month - no every evening massages for your W - she seems to have survived, eh? If you do go for a re-engage, watch for some boundaries around what you "do" and validate the heck out of it.  

All:

I am not sure if my uBPD wife and I will reunite/reconcile.   If we do there certainly will be expectations on my part.  As for the illnesses, and just off the top of my head, I can name fibromyalgia, irritable bowel syndrome, migranes, ovarian cysts, gall bladder surgery, 2 years of physical therapy for various aches and pains, upper neck disk problems, lowed back disk problems (HAVING FUSION SURGERY NEXT WEEK), water on the knee, etc.

She has 6 MRI's I can recall and has been tested for Lyme Disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupis, all of which she self diagnosed.   She had none.   She is the picture of health.  I am not condemning regular physical exams, but she is beyond exhausting with this... .  it reached the point where its was the only thing she wanted to talk to me about.

Oh my, the constant massages... .  I wore my hands and fingers raw trying to keep up with his need for never ending rub downs and he never reciprocated because his hands hurt.  One of the best parts of being separated is not being expected to constantly rub his head, neck, back.  I tried to set boundaries last year when I started to work on my codependency and that did not go well at all... .  he was so upset that I was not serving his needs on demand like I used to. 

The ailments, its crazy, there is constant mysterious aches and pains, arthritis, never ending headaches, gout, sinus trouble, ear infections, sciatic nerve pain, back trouble, ankle trouble, self diagnosed lyme disease, concerns about blood clots, brain tumors and heart trouble, thyroid function.  He has been on so many different medications and gone through so many different doctors its unreal. 

After a week of fairly normal behavior, besides the constant physical complaints, he had a complete meltdown the past three days so now we are back to everything being my fault, bringing up everything he says I have done to wrong him in our time together, making up things that are not even factual, spewing verbal abuse.  THe text messages are out of control.  I have used all of the tools, validation, SET, detaching with love, not arguing or defending myself... .  none of these has stopped his roll or even slowed him down.  He wants a divorce because I am too much, he has tried everything and nothing has worked, I am too difficult and he is sick of therapy (he is not in individual therapy, this is just once a week marital therapy as a couple).  Thank goodness I have the sanctuary of my own place, its so good to not be in the middle of the whirlwind once he gets started because it can go on and on for days without a break and involves being woken up throughout the night to listen to his tirades.

I am coming closer and closer to the decision to make this permanent... .  it does not look like he will ever have recognition and will stay in denial and since I can't tell him about the BPD I can't do anything to change things. 

How are you guys doing tonight? 

All:

She is so variable... .  just like the BPD symptoms.   She is now avoiding contact... .  I am not initiating.   it has been 2 or 3 days.   From a detached perspective, I am curious how long this will last and what will cause the pendulum to swing back to the other extreme.   

My problem is staying detached and remaining consistent myself.  Right now I am.

Mike,

I think that's a good place to be. I find it liberating, to be able to go back into the "land of normal" for a period of time, gain perspective, clear my head, etc. I think that's how we start the process of healing... .  

Have been obsessing about BPD off and on for a year now. I find it is like peeling layers of an onion - re-visiting the same concepts at a deeper level. And at the same time having a more clear picture and being more centered in who I am and what my life is about... .  

Starting to figure out I had some pwBPD around growing up, and then there are at least 1-2 in my husband's family (thank goodness, my h is a non!).

The strangest thing used to happen in the past when I visited with my parents for a while - I started loosing perspective of who I was, literally, just reacting to what was coming at me, and didn't like that at all, but didn't know what else to do.

Now, when my h and I were around his daughter, the same thing was happening, our whole lives were being hijacked in front of our lives and we felt helpless... .  

Until, that is, that we found out about BPD! Things have been crazy in this last year, but we are hopeful that at least we are on the right track to not loosing our identities to an illness we cannot change.

I am not sure whether I had BPD someone in my family with BPD growning up but it is possible.  If I did I am not sure whether it was my mother or father.    My wife is clearly strongly uBPD.   Feeling as if my life is "hijacked" by her behavior is apt description.  I find myself just reacting to her.

I am fairly certain that she has attempted to convince her therapist and pastor that I am the one with a problem (my problem unfortunately is her).  What I am unsure about is whether or not they see through her.  I suspect that the fact that she has shifted to little contact recently is a result of her last visit to her therapist.   Good for her.  I will see what happens.

All:

As time goes by I remember more... .  

Has anyone ever experience their BPD significant other blatantly threaten to cheat on you because you were "neglecting" her (or him) in one way or another?   I had this said to me many times.  She said right before I left for my camp that she said it only once.  The times I suggested tactfully that I felt second string to the rest of life I was summarily dismissed and told that not everything is about me.

Also, has anyone every experienced your BPD wife or husband contacting your ex wife or husband to, as far as I can tell, enlist their support in determining how bad you really are?  This is thrown in my face many times:  my uBPD wife telling me what I did wrong in past relationships when we did not even know each other.

One more thing... .  has anyone been in a marriage to a BPD where she (or he) has children from a previous marriage?  Did he or she attempt to marginalize your kids/family while forcing you to become a replacement parent for her children?  Did she/he criticize you repeatedly in front of them so that the kids felt no need to show you respect? Did she/he coddle those children and make excuses for their total lack of effort while working you like a slave?  When those kids performed below standards, or out and out failed, did she attack you instead, blaming you for their failures or subjecting you to the anger that should have been directed (at some level) at them?

The longer I am separated, the more my mind clears.  I feel an urgent need to get these things out... .  they were beyond belief at the time and yet made me question my perception of reality.

Hi Mike.

Seven questions in your last post.

Seven "yeses"  for me.  I could add many others - eg. are you to completely dissociate yourself with your ex and her family, (aunt and grandparents of my 3 daughters) yet sit down to dinner with her ex's family - including her former husband - given the "excuse" that her ex is "not as bad" as your ex despite him having a child with another woman in their first year of marriage - AND he's an unemployed alcoholic living with his parents that you both visited in the hospital when he was in a near death alcohol poisoned state?

Yes - there's the double standard and hypocrisy - we still love him/her - now what?  

Tuum,

I have no idea now what.  I will figure it out.

As far as dealing with my uBPD wife's ex-husband, yes.    He is not so bad, except for the fact that he has been terribly financially irresponsible to his kids, not paying child support for several years and then cooking the books so that he only had to provide $100 a month.   Classy.  Great father.

It is sour grapes, I know, but I provided for all the needs of her children for more than 5 years, clothes Christmas gifts, activities, and let us not forget all household bills.  All.  After we were married I continued this practice of course, but was told the kids don't like me and I am a bad influence on them.   This would infuriate me of course.

Since I left a month ago, my attitude presently toward my wife's statements that the kids hate me and I am not good for them is:  "well, it sure will save me a lot of money".  I have no support obligation for those children, but I always felt responsible and thought my doing so was the right thing. 

She pushed me too far and too hard.  It will take a monumental, and unprecedented, effort on my uBPD wife's part to get me back... .  if she wants to try.  I mean overtly attempt, in the clear, no mincing of words, no passive aggressive attempts to get me to make the move.

I am not sure that she has it in her.

Another big yes on the child support too. Her ex paid for a while on her son but stopped.  I actually didn't mind because then my W reduced the amount of criticism of me because my exW didn't pay child support - and the monthly contact for the cheque stopped and the more frequent "support" sessions my W gave her ex over the phone diminished.    

Earlier in this thread we talked a bit about you "waiting" for her to "pull the trigger".  Your comment about "no obligation to her children" has me wondering - are you sure?  As you wait it out in the woods, you might check out - with a lawyer - your jurisdictions laws on support of her children should either of you decide to call it a day on your marriage.  I assume you may have done that - but just checking.

Back to the waiting - specifically you waiting for "overt" and "monumental" efforts on her part to address her BPD/your marital issues - I doubt she has it in her either.  

So here I go again, now what? (not looking for an answer - as you said you will figure it out - just pointing out that the question remains)

Tuum,

if it appears that the separation will continue to stagnate for another month, I will as her what her intentions are.  If I get the normal double talk, I will lay it out... .  we are moving forward, maybe together and maybe apart, but we a definitely moving forward.

Your question is a good one.  My answer goes back to one of my statements from a few days ago:  I am not going to stay in limbo waiting on her forever.

You will figure this out Mike - especially with help from the people around here. |iiii





This thead has reached 4 pages so I am going to lock it down. Feel free to start up another thread on the same topic and continue the discussion.