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Hi all.

I won't write a book this time, but as many of you know, my uBPDexbf, with whom I've been maintaining an ambiguous, intimate friendship, recently announced that he is suddenly selling his apartment & leaving town.  Unknown when or if he will return.

We had dinner Monday night with a friend of mine who was talking about her own decision whether to move to another country.  My pwBPD offered up that sure, you can leave and leave and leave, but sometimes, you need to choose to stay.

?

He is going in about 10 days.  I may only see him once again before he goes.  When we talk, I don't want to ignore such statements and am still trying to figure out how and whether to discuss the implications of him leaving for us, my feelings for him, and so on (right now inclined to say little except that I will miss him very much).

But what do you make of that statement?  He also continues to make comments about how much of life seems to be dealing with loss.  I feel like he is trying to say something, though what he's saying seems at complete odds with what he is doing.  And he is trying to say it to me, which is puzzling because he is also seemingly leaving me, in midst of our increasingly close r/s, although he also insists he is not going to "fall off the edge of the world" and "who knows" whether he will come back here ... .  

Thoughts about/insight regarding what's going on here?  Let alone how I ought to respond to it?  My instinct is: ask him what he means.  Affirm I care about and will miss him.  Let him go, don't make the slightest suggestion that I wish he would not go (and he certainly will go, at least in the short term -- I don't have any doubt about that).  But ... .  argh!  What are these comments about?  What if anything does he want me to do with them?

I am bitter and cynical these days, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

This man knows EXACTLY what he is doing. He knows EXACTLY what he is saying.  He knows you well enough to know EXACTLY how he is effecting you.

In fact, I would say that he is VERY MUCH enjoying himself right now.

Oh what a tragedy, farewell Patient, farewell my darling, it's best to stay, but I MUST GO.

I call bullcrap on him.

I am actually getting pretty ticked off at him on your behalf. Of course, to be honest, I am pretty ticked off at all BPD these days. Even though mine is being NICE. Yes. He is being NICE and SUPPORTIVE while he keeps on doing the SAME OLD CRAP.

Like yours is.

I don't have a solution. It sucks for both of us.

Sorry  

Ugh!  This sounds so frustrating!   

I wouldn't read too much into what he's saying.  Who can make sense of disordered thinking?  Pay attention to what he's doing... .  

Hugs. 

P&C,

He's a grown up,  I'd say, if this were me, that I would have to spill my guts before he leaves and then let go, let him leave to do whatever it is he feels he must do... .  

We could all spin our thoughts/themes (and we do) of what our BPDs are thinking, doing, etc.  But in order for YOU to feel better when he is gone, you should just be honest and speak your mind.  Although it's mostly what a non would do in saying goodbye, this time, I'd say be yourself, you've nothing to loose except an email pen pal.  Because, in all fairness TO YOU, there is an undercurrent of the leftover remnants of your romantic relationship and this could offer YOU some type of closure.  I'm not sure there is ever real closure, but if you know in your heart of hearts you were honest and left nothing unsaid before he takes off, perhaps you could spend less energy wondering "what if"? whilst he's gone and begin to heal and move forward.  Not necessarily moving away from him, but taking you in a more forward motion so that if and when he returns? something very different can begin, or maybe you won't want anything at all... .  

Now, there's that other side of this coin too.  Oh hEll to the no you're not gonna let him know how you feel. Let him just take his bad self on around the world and do whatever, you don't care, you're not in a relationship, it's perfectly fine, just go! I may be here when you get back, and then again I may not!  

I have a lil devil in me where he's concerned, ahem  

Whatever you decide, we're all on YOUR side, want you to feel better and have the beautiful life you deserve  

No doubt, someone way more knowledgeable than me will chime in!

CiF

I do see the possibility, Elemental, that -- consciously or not -- he is inviting me to argue with him about his choice to go.  "Please don't go."  "Why are you going if you say it's important to stay?" "I don't want you to go." Then he can feel wanted, and still leave.

But isn't there some possibility that he is ambivalent about what he's doing and reaching out for feedback and support?  And if I am just completely sphinx-like, what does he take away from that?

How DO I respond to such comments in a way that doesn't set me up for rejection but does actually engage whatever genuine feelings are driving him to bring this up?

And CIF, yes, we all know that I do have residual romantic feelings for him, wish we could be together, and so on ... .  but for the moment, I'm hanging on to the fact that I, too, think we should not be doing that while he is so ambivalent about attachment.  So setting aside whether I should declare my deeper feelings for him (which I probably won't but still might ... .  ), and assuming I am just his true and enduring friend ... .  what do I say when he's all "I'm going" but then also looks at me and says "hey, staying is really important?"

So far, all I've said about his departure is that I will miss him.  I think he is a little surprised, perhaps, at my not having made a case for him to stay.

Hey P & C,

Been thinking about you and your situation, so glad to hear from you.  I agree with CIF that you should not reveal your feelings to him, even if it's just to "get it off your chest" and not to try to get him to stay.  I sense that his narcissism is in full swing around you b/c he gets specialized attention.  Even with the BPD, he is still a guy and I think guys know when a girl likes them.  Some guys will keep hanging out with a girl even if they don't feel exactly the same b/c she is good enough to pass the time with (it's basically narcissistic supply).  I know that sounds harsh, but that is what it seems like to me, looking in.  I am pissed like the above posters at him b/c you really are special and deserve to be with someone who thinks you are as snazzy as we know you are :)  Got to go will write more in a bit.

Rosanna et al.--you guys rock.  Can you all be my boyfriend? :)

OK, I'll await further comments about how snazzy I am and how this ... .  sucks.

Why ... .  is ... .  he ... .  telling ... .  me ... .  he ... .  maybe ... .  shouldn't ... .  go?  Is it just bait on a hook -- "go on, try to talk me into staying?"

Dont they love to keep us dangling on that string! Hes a big boy, he sold his apartment without feedback and support. Perhaps it is just ego boosting for him to get u to ask him to stay.

IMO, yes to your question about baiting you. And I think you know that if you reveal your feelings (which he will see as you stating how you need something from him) all it will do is give him narcissistic supply and frustrate you b/c he won't be interested in your needs.  In fact, his moving away (is it BPD or midlife crisis?who knows and is irrelevent) is his intention and is a literal sign that his needs are more important to him than your needs.  That is not right or wrong, it is just what he is doing and it makes you sad.  Honestly, when he goes, I think you can really start to get on with a new, exciting life!

You can explore the inconsistencies of his behavior and words without revealing your feelings.  Just pretend you are a therapist trying to get more information from someone.  Be concerned and curious, but from a clinical distance.  :)oes that make any sense?  Like "I was curious about something you said at dinner the other night about not moving.  Can you elaborate on that?"  or something like that.

You know, I was thinking just now.  I wonder how you would have handled him breaking up with you, the re-engagement, the recent (sudden) news that he is moving away if he was just a "normal guy"?  Just curious.  

I am sorry that you are going through this and him giving you double messages at the same time. Not fair.

I'll just share the advice my T always gives me when I am in a situation where I don't understand why my pwBPD does or says something and when I am needing for him to understand something - ask him to clarify. I have found with my ex that when he is being unclear on something it is usually because he is not sure of his intentions, his reasons for why he saying or doing something. And my questions have clarified it to him. Often when he has been dysregulated, questions, so long as I show no feelings and validate, have had a calming effect on his temper.

Well, it's only these behaviors that have clued me in that he is not a normal guy!  I thought he was an emotionally healthy, competent person I could trust.  I'd known him a long time as a respected colleague and never picked up anything that suggested he'd passionately commit to something only to scuttle it in the blink of an eye.

My questions about what this is, what to do ... .  they stem from an ongoing inability to completely accept that this is just what it appears to be, that there is no solution, no best way forward to find that can make a difference to the outcome.

Yes, there are better and worse ways forward in terms of their impact on me.  I suppose that's what I'm seeking here -- is there something in all of this strangeness that is a thread I can pull that goes somewhere better, or is the best course one of detachment and relative indifference to his decision-making and how it sabotages what I have several times now thought was valuable between us.

I really appreciate the insight that I am being invited to ask a question just in order to be let down.  I want him, he denies me, that works for him.  And that the way to avoid that without ignoring the genuine thrust of his comment is to ask what he means, rather than state any desires, hopes or wishes I have.  Got it.  I can do that.

What are your feelings P&C? 

Honestly, I don't know what it is you want from him from your post, what am I missing about this:

- you are friends

- he is selling his place and leaving

- he is emotionally vague at times (you knew this when you decided to be friends with him).

What is it that you need from him?

You know him pretty well, it seems. As well as possible. You see his patterns. He's someone you get 'vibes' from. How do YOU think he's acting? What do YOU feel he's looking for with those statements? How do you feel to respond? Without overthinking it, what do your instincts say? Why tip-toe through your own life? It sounds, from how you describe it, like he wants you to be the one to play your hand. But: Who knows what he wants? What do YOU want? Whether he's gone, comes back, doesn't leave... .  Whether you proclaim your true feelings with him or not... .  Whichever way any of this goes, you're the one inside yourself dealing with You. So do what YOU need to do, while you still have the chance. He might let you down. Not letting yourself down is more important at this point.

SB, it's funny, these questions took me back for a minute & it was worthwhile to think about why.  You are right, formally.  We are "just friends," that's the formal agreement.  But it isn't really just that.  I got back in touch on those terms, but he immediately began relating to me in a way that was not like any ordinary friends.  I don't mean physically, but emotionally.  And it was that way for a while.  And then he disappeared.  And then reappeared, again in an intense way that is not like any ordinary friendship.  And again.  And again.  And we're sort of talking about the withdrawals, and how to manage them; and in between, he is sharing things with me he has not, as far as I make out, shared with women he's dated; and we are working on learning how to deal with his dysregulation and trust issues, and he is calling me on some legitimate issues about trying to rescue him, and we see each other and are often each other's last text of the night, and ... .  

And all of that is going to end, or change significantly, when he moves.  I don't really have a name for what we are to one another, but I know it is important to me, and it is not just a shrug of the shoulders for it to end; and that is not just what I am putting into it, but also what he has chosen to put into it.

What I need from him?  Well, I try not to need anything from him. I am trying to figure out what he is getting at with his comments that seem to express ambivalence about something he is doing that I am sad about, that he knows I am sad about -- and which he does not have to do.  Like others have said here, it feels like he would like me to oppose him going, thus reinforcing that I am the one in our r/s who stays, who advocates staying, who sees the value in continuing what we're doing.  There is something about that that bothers me, and that's what I'm working through here.


Hi Myself, and thanks for this.  My instinct, again, is that he wants me to play my assigned role in this r/s -- I champion remaining together, he breaks us apart.  I champion staying in place, he champions adventure and shedding attachments.  Somehow I think that's what I stand for in his mind--and in mine.

And I guess what I'm finding is that, in order not to let myself down, I need to not just play into that.  I'm tired of being the one who asks him not to go.  I guess I want him to own his piece of this thing between us, not to pretend it isn't there or that only I want it; and whether he will own it or not, I don't want to keep being the one who advocates for us, only to have him walk away.

It's hard for me not to take the bait (whether he intends it that way or not -- probably not consciously).  It's hard for me not to champion what could be.  It's hard for me not to try to argue him into trying.  It's hard for me, when he himself raises the issue, not to jump into action as the champion of commitment and consistency and deepening ties and enduring attachment.  But I don't think I should.  If he knows enough to raise the issue, he can practice advocating for those things.  It's his turn.

It is his turn.

Maybe it's time for you to have some adventures too :)

We just watched the same movie "together" (separate homes) and were texting about it, but he didn't respond to the last text, and for some reason, it made me search out an early email between us, and then I read a bunch of other early emails, and ... .  I simply cannot fathom how we got from the tenderness and openness and hope of back then, to now, when we actually know each other so much better & I even think know that we like each other so much more, but there are no words of love, no comments about how lucky we are, how much we want to spend time together ... .  just sort of a raw scheduling ("dinner next week on Weds?" and now, this news of him leaving indefinitely.

How, how on earth, did we get from there to here?  And of course I know the answer.  I've spent the last year on here learning it.  But.  God, it really breaks my heart.

I used to ask mine that same question. "How did we get from there to here?" You know the answer is BPD. Its the script. I wish you the best whatever happens. But happily ever after is rarely where these friendships go patientandclear.

I just think that pwBPD often feel safer not having to show affection and express their love. It could be that they do know themselves so they know expressing how they feel will be triggering to them because they will set themselves up for abandonment. My ex would always seem the most balanced, not necessarily the most content, when he was in a phase where he would neither be in push or pull. Or perhaps he was but he controlled his displays of affection in order to remain stable with me. I would find this frustrating and it would make me unhappy and depressed but he seemed to cope better this way.

Hi Patient and Clear

Your PwBPD reminds me so much of my pwBPD. After he had broken up with me we went for a walk. He was so sad, he said 'Why do I have to keep running? Why can't I stop and just have times like this?' And the last day I saw him before it all went crazy and I had to go NC all those months ago. I was worried about him, I asked if he was seeing his girlfriend. He said several times in an accusing, pleading tone 'If I want it'.

My guess is he wanted me to tell him what to do each time. Tell him to stop, tell him to stay with me. It might have stopped him, for a while. But it couldn't ultimately.

It is the disorder. It is push "I'm leaving" and pull "Sometimes it's important to stay". The two things happen at the same time because the abandonment/ engulfment happen together at times too.

Nothing you can say will make a difference to this for him ultimately. But it can make a difference to you.

Remember the lack of identity inside, remember the child in a grown up body. Remember his thinking is faulty. Forget his beautiful words. Look at what he is doing to you. It isn't caring or loving.

I just saw more lies from my ex. I've had enough of it now. Last time I saw him I sat while he texted his girlfriend goodnight. She will have had no idea he was with me. He can't help himself. They are not the people we see when we do not see them. This I am sure of. I know we want to believe that they are but I know that they aren't. They need people to survive from. I am lucky to see the lies again because I'm just tired of him now. I'm tired of the games he plays with my head to keep me in his life.

Hi P&C   Big hugs to you (as always!)  

A couple of things occurred to me.

One was how wise the advice that Mitti quotes from her therapist is. I think you could end up with a degree of satisfaction in having a conversation that helps your ex explore his own motivations by talking them out with you. And at the same time this would allow you to unpick what's going on (for your own benefit) without making it about you pleading for a different outcome. Have you had conversations with him along the lines of -

'Wow! This is  a major decision to sell up and move - tell me more about the impulse that's driving this - how does it make you feel? Do you have mixed feelings? Are you sad to be leaving me and other aspects of your life here behind? Is it very liberating to be thinking about new horizons? And maybe scary too? Does this feel like a chance for a 'new start'? Is some of you conflicted about this and wanting to stay - as you advised our mutual friend to do when she talked about her own plans?'.

Also the comments he made about 'sometimes it's important to stay' were directed at your friend weren't they? He may not have made the connection in his own head between his advice to her and what he's doing. In fact I'd be surprised if he had that amount of insight. I think it's quite possible to be able to offer reasonably clear sighted advice to others on their own actions without having parallel understanding of oneself.  For him I imagine the compulsions are too deep in the subconscious to be apparent to him.

I suspect that what will emerge from any discussion about what he's doing, why he's doing it and what he feels about it will reveal a fairly tangled and uncertain picture. But by discussing it this way you might manage to make it a bit clearer to him that he is making his own choices in this - that no-one - you included - is driving what's going on - it's him. And that might make you feel a bit better too.

You've said elsewhere that his main motivation in life now is to construct a stable sense of who he is - this will presumably be one of the key things he'll talk about in explaining this latest round of exploration/movement and 'adventures'. One has to hope that he is on some kind of forward, creative trajectory that does indeed lead to a more solid sense of identity - but sadly there is no guarantee of that - and  clearly right now this process of 'self construction' is so nascent that he's nowhere near your level of emotional stability and maturity.

If I'm honest I don't think an extended road trip will change anything profoundly for him. If your ex was simply an otherwise stable person going through a difficult transition period I think a bit of travel might make a substantial difference to his views on life and himself. But that isn't the reality is it? Your experience of him and knowledge of the trajectory of his life makes that pretty clear. To me it looks more like a retreat into a more marginal, hermit-like life.

The other thought is that he isn't really leaving. This dramatic house selling and re-starting on a new phase in life - isn't it too much like his previous periodic convulsions that means he shifts jobs, partners, homes and 'starts again'? I'm sure in his own head it's a momentous and life changing move - but I somehow doubt it. I think he'll keep emailing and I really wouldn't be surprised if he came back.

I am so sorry that your ex cannot be a consistent and reliable presence in your life P&C.  It's been said a lot here - but it can never be overstated - you deserve much better than this. I know exactly why he appeared to be so perfect - I've lived that myself - if much more briefly and now quite a long time ago - but sadly that really was more about your ex's need than it was about a real, deep and enduring ability to bond with you.

To try and pull this back into 'real world' thinking. What he's doing now would not - in that context - be regarded as a respectful and caring thing to do. It does not take due account of the needs of the woman who he treats as much more than a friend does it? He really is only capable of acting in a way that feeds his own sense of what he needs (however inaccurate). I hope that changes one day - but - very sadly - I would not be holding my breath for that to happen.

This must be such a tough time. I think it's important to look around right now and remind yourself of all the immensely valuable people/activities you have in your life that aren't going anywhere - and which CAN be relied on.

Sending love   WWT.  

I think this is true of mine as well. He frequently would even say "Tell me... .  " whatever it was he wanted to hear. And I think too sometimes they don't know what they want and appreciate you to read their minds for them. He could be fishing for her to tell him something, but this is very likely only for his own needs and not for P&C.

I am sorry P & C- my post became more about me than you, feeling slightly angry with my ex and I really don't like what I see in him right now!

I just don't think you see the whole him in yours and I also think you fill in the gaps looking for answers of order when the answers are in the disorder. It's impossible to make sense of them.

The best sense I have made is that my ex knows me well enough to say just the words that will stick fast in my head and in my heart. He is an absolute master at it.

I meant to add though before I diverged into my own little rant    - I agree with those who have said if you want to know what he meant just ask him. I used to avoid doing that or talk around it so much I made excuses for him before he even answered. The best results were to strip all my talk and hesitation away and say:

'Why did you say 'sometimes it is important to stay' when you are leaving?' And if he fudges ask him again.

The answer might not answer it for you- I truly believe the disorder means they will say things as they pass through their minds on the breeze a lot of the time, but it may help you. Just keep in mind the answer might not be true.

P&C,

I am going to challenge you a bit, only because you seem to have a small window to get clear on what you need or want - please do not take this as a personal attack.


This is a boundary issue - did you allow this because it was what you wanted?  You have been posting for a while now that you only wanted to be friends, that you understood he couldn't be what you wanted and that you were ok with it - what is your truth P&C?

Without being honest with yourself, it is really hard to be honest with someone else.


If you want him to stay because you want to have a real relationship with him, what is wrong with telling him?

If he is only a friend, wish him well and be a friend - a supportive friend.  It's ok to feel sad when a friend moves.  And change is a part of life - no doubt this will be a shock to your system... .  perhaps it can give you the break to move forward with you life and have emotional room for another?


Theory vs. Reality.  In reality you are needing something from him, even if it is clarification. 


Ask him - simply, the stayers who are successful ask direct questions and do not assume.  They also let the answer be what it is and validate without taking it personally.

There are tools to use for these relationships - boundaries needed - DEARMAN - SET - Validation - this all does work, but takes a lot of practice.

What do you really want from him?

What do you really want from posting this?

My ex pulled the proverbial rug out from under many times when I least expected it.  So I started to expect it, but even then it felt unexpected.  You are not dealing with logic, but with disorder.  There is no making sense of it.  It is frustrating as all hell, I understand, but maybe radical acceptance is needed here.

I agree with what was said about what do YOU need... really listen to that and answer yourself.  He is playing his own game, and his rules will probably always change and they will never make sense to you, at least they didn't to me.  Good luck.

I really appreciate you pushing me, SB.


I think what this is missing is my hope for change over time.  :)oes that make sense?  I do not want to be in a sexual/romantic r/s with someone who leaves me & distances whenever we get close.  Right now, that appears to be where he is.  Nor does he appear to have a lot of insight about that.  But that doesn't mean I've surrendered all hope for change.  I have determined that I will not try to engineer the change or "save" him.  But I would welcome it.  And I think that's where some of my pain is coming from -- I have some ill-formed only partially acknowledged sense that if I somehow act perfectly in this current role, he will grow to trust me, and overcome his intimacy barriers and attachment crises.  I know of no basis to believe it can work that way.  Yet I am proceeding as if that is a reasonable possibility.  That's where I think I need to do some serious self-examination.


No, not really.  I want clarification, but from you guys!  Not from him.  I've learned that asking him to explain why things are the way they are with us is not very helpful.  I don't think he understands.  I can ask, and he can say words, but the words are more confusing than enlightening.


Yes, this is one important point I am taking away from this thread.  It makes sense to ask -- not to share my views about it.

Maria, you've made this point a few times in recent threads, and I really appreciate it.  I am feeling more free to just communicate without worrying so much how I am going to come across to him.  After all, if I give up on the goal of trying to guide this to some difficulty to achieve, pre-determined outcome, I have nothing to lose.  Thanks for modeling this & sharing it.

Thanks so much to the others who've responded (Phoenix, LifeGoesOn, others).  WWT, that was an incredible post -- thank you.  Still processing all of that.

Wanted to share a profound but succinct insight that a friend of mine in real life -- who monitors my situation with my uBPDex because she is constantly worried I will engage in selective amnesia and start thinking we should be partners again -- shared today.  She said "he can only be intimate by denying it is happening."

And that does pretty much sum up this whole dynamic. We are far more intimate than most friends, but that fact is explicitly denied by him and not overtly acknowledged by me.  We are colluding in a story that this is not romantic, even though it deeply is.  And he can maintain that depth of special and romantic connection (we're at 7 months now, the longest sustained basically good relationship I think he has ever had) but only by saying it is NOT ROMANTIC.

SeekingBalance says that I've allowed a boundary violation to occur by allowing him to reach me at this romantic level, when I've said that is not what I want, because at some level, I am still longing for that to be restored.  I guess that is true.  The question remains what if anything I should do about that.

Patientandclear:  "I have some ill-formed only partially acknowledged sense that if I somehow act perfectly in this current role, he will grow to trust me, and overcome his intimacy barriers and attachment crises"


No, this goes along with thinking that unconditional love can cure them. You can't be "perfect" it is the feelings which he has when you are "perfect" that make the disorder worse. Actually, if you treated him badly, he'd be more inclined to find you easier to maintain a friendship with because he wouldn't have warm fuzzy feelings for you. We can clearly see this as you thought you were performing perfectly and he has done an about face professing his mistrust and also leaving town. Not that he is leaving town to get away from you, but it certainly is not the scenario you were hoping for which is an intimate connection and him overcoming his attachment disorder. You can not fix this. All one does by attempting to form an intimate frienship with them is trigger them and drive them away. This is why mine still wants to be friends, but cannot get close enough to me to have a friendship. It's debilitating. So sad.

I was thinking more about this and how mine reacts to me. When we get close and nice he freaks out and runs off. Come to think of it, it seems the only time he comes running back is when I get indifferent and act like I don't care or that I am done with him. That's when he'll come back.

I bet if you told yours. "Hmm, sorry your moving, I guess I'll have to find another friend." or anything that shows indifference and makes it seems as if you don't care that he's leaving, he may get triggered to pull closer. Seems manipulative though... .  

Honestly, because of the duality of this disorder I don't know how one can make it work. It seems for sure that the more they like you the more they will for sure hate you just as well.

I think the path of integrity and genuine love and affection is to convey warmth, not indifference -- but then also, to very clearly let go.  Somehow having stumbled upon that general approach from the very beginning, since the moment he broke up with me, I think is the reason we've been able to cobble together whatever this is that we have.

I often second guess this approach (as folks on this board know) -- should I ask for more?  Should I engage less?  All of those questions are based on hope that he can become different than he is.

This episode is forcing me to more deeply accept how he is.  My theory that more and better closeness -- the perfect closeness recipe -- combined with the perfect degree of acceptance, would somehow change things for us fundamentally, is, I think, being proved wrong (as I've read a million times on these boards, of course).  It is, however, probably the right recipe for the most that we can have.  I am trying to get back to a place where I can appreciate that and accept that.

Try using DEARMAN in this thread so you can get feedback here.  A major key to using the communication tools is to know what it is you are asking, what is it you need?

Of course genuine love shows warmth and not indifference. I was just sharing what had pulled mine back was indifference, not that I believe indifference is a good thing. As always, BPD doesn't work in the "normal" fashion of relationships. pwBPD is incapable of genuine sustainable intimacy, regardless of how much warmth one shows them. It seems that there is confusion that on teh "staying board" we'll find ways of doing the right things that will somehow change a pwBPD to be capable of sustained intimacy.  I'm starting to see the "staying" board as a means of coping. Not a board for "fixing" or changing an attachement disorder.

I keep wondering, too, how BPD is effecting.

It looks like most of the BPD we talk about on this site are not actually diagnosed.

Mine is not, but he kind of looks like one. Then again, a lot of his issues could be caused from HIS ex who he cannot get away from due to shared children. And that woman is probably BPD, she is crazier than a tree full of owls.

Also mine could be being effected by cultural differences. He is Russian, and Russian society is often permissive of men, due to a whole generation of men being wiped out due to war. There was, at one time, 1 Russian man to every 3 Russian women.

If I were in this situation, I would smile and go quiet on this guy. Patient, I would go quiet on him. He knows how you feel. Honestly he just looks to me like he is playing around inside of this circle you created because he knows he can get away with it and still have you around.

If he wants to pull the freedom card... .  let him have his freedom without you for a while. Do a 180 and go live your life a while without this person sucking up your attention and emotional energy the way it has. I don't think it will hurt for HIM to keep making the effort. What I found, myself, is when a man is complaining about a woman not persuing him... .  it's because he is being lazy about things and wants his ego built up.

jmo. you probably could use a break, this all sounds so emotionally convuluted. 

 |iiii


I think you just hit pay-dirt here, where it comes to understanding your issues. Now that you know where to dig, you can find a path for yourself that feels true to the person you are and want to be. Keep up the good work!

P&C, it so so so so so important to be who you are, be yourself.  Trust yourself and stand up for what you believe in!  If that means stepping on a few eggshells, then so be it.  We cannot be perfect, nor is it even expected of us by our loved ones; it would make them trust us even less, I would imagine.

Here's a recent situation, it doesn't pertain to your guy moving away, but it does touch on not 'acting perfectly' in a role... .    It's about being ourselves:

I spent a lovely day with the guy I'm seeing when he all of a sudden got that irritated way about him, with me; he asked annoyingly what I had just said, I repeated myself, he gave me a look and pretty much blew me off.

I asked outright if what I originally said irritated him?

He said 'No'.

I had his attention so said light-heartedly, 'Oh, you sure seemed irritated to me, not that I really care if you were... .  '   Then turned my focus to something else that was going on around us.

Guess what?  He snapped out of whatever state he was in and became present and open; he landed back on earth again.  We continued to have a really good time!

I was just being me, not at all perfect and he trusts that more.  I know he has some issues, I do accept that about him, so no need to get into the why's of what his deal was, what was going on in his head; that's his stuff, his business.  How his behavior affected me, was my business.  So I adressed it in my own way, let go, with no worries about the outcome.  And like I said, we had a really good time.

In the past, I would have fretted about his sudden change in personality, taken it very personally, talked to friends about it and ask them what they think, instead of simply handling it on my own in the moment.  It would have created a much bigger stink with my own subsequent behaviors, feeding into my own fears, had I not faced it head on. 

The comfier we get with ourselves, the comfier they feel with us :)

Be your true self and see where it leads you! 

Phoebe, I really hear you about being confident and comfortable and letting things fall where they fall.  In the past few weeks, I've done that more in my communication with my pwBPD, and it's felt better -- for me.  No idea what it feels like for him and I'm not really worrying about that.  He seems to deal with it fine.

In the specific context of his impending move though, I'm having trouble figuring out what that means.  I have dueling instincts, one to go tell him how I feel -- literally, to go ring his doorbell and ask to come in to the place he is about to sell, where we were briefly so happy, and ask him if we are going to leave things as they are or try to go further together.  The other instinct is to not push it, continue to let him come to me when and if he does, to somehow gently affirm that I would go further if and when he is ready, and just let him go without bringing the issues fully into view.

Bear in mind (i) he explicitly told me in October he didn't want to go further, although, of course, since then we have gone to places emotionally you don't typically go with friends, and also, after he broke up with me, two months later he was saying he always thought we would talk about it & it was his impression I had decided not to revisit the question, not him -- utter projection, but I have no way of knowing whether he is still in the place he was when he said "friends only" in October; and (ii) as part of being comfortable being me, I have asked him for coffee the last two weekends, and both times he's said no, once because he was out of town, this weekend because he's got so much to do to move, and he scheduled dinner with me this week instead.  But this after asking me to initiate seeing each other more, not always leaving it to him.  I feel like I am walking directly in the face of his "nos" if I walk up to his door, ring the doorbell, and say "are we ever going to make something more of this?"

And then finally, there is the fact (as I've written above on this thread) that I seem to be trying to love him out of his attachment disorder.  If he responded positively to an overture out of the blue to consider going deeper together -- then what?  I've said for a long time I wouldn't just plunge back in without some kind of plan for managing his panics.  :)BT, something.  He's never indicated he's close to undertaking that.  Yes, if I made an overture it could be a conditional one -- I would go further with you, if you are addressing your tendency to panic.

I dunno.  I worry that I will regret forever not having that conversation, because again, when he broke up with me, he kept saying later that he kept waiting for me to initiate that discussion (in reality, entirely his choice -- I made clear I was open, but I didn't bust down his door insisting on it, I waited for him to make some gesture of wanting to solve the issues).

At the same time, there are good things going on between us now, they are just being massively interrupted by his departure.  If he weren't leaving, we could let those ripen in their own time.  But with his departure, I feel like if I say nothing, we are kind of done.  Even though he does not appear to think so.

I'm just having an awfully hard time figuring out what "being myself" and being confident means in this context.  I love him.  There is a lot that is good between us.  He does not seem to be poised, on his own, to confront his attachment issues.  His style is so passive though -- sometimes I feel as if, if I just put these issues squarely on the table, we might be able to make great progress, but I keep avoiding them due to a combination of fear of rejection and respect for his own process, not wanting to ask him for something he cannot do.

But assuming he cannot do it, never asking him to stretch or try for more, feels condescending, fatalistic, and not very loving.

Sorry my thoughts are such a jumble.  I feel so torn between action -- but is it just action for its own sake?  because I cannot radically accept the situation between us? -- and waiting -- but is it really fear-based and unwillingness to be brave and ask for what I really want and believe we could be together, if he were willing?

P&C, here's a quick summary and a new idea:

• 
  
  You are afraid of him having a negative reaction if you tell him you love him and want to be more than friends.



• You are reluctant to ask him to be in a relationship because he hasn't addressed his own issues enough for you to feel safe being in a relationship with him.



• You say you are afraid you would regret forever letting him go away without telling him how you are feeling.

With all that going on, no wonder you are confused and troubled! This isn't a clear and simple situation! I expect that (in a perfect world) you want to just "have a conversation and tell him what you are feeling" as if he was a normal, emotionally healthy person.

Prior experience tells you that this doesn't go well with a pwBPD. So deep down you know better than doing that, and you don't want to make that sort of mess either :)

So instead of action for its own sake or no action to avoid blowing things up... .  how about trying a smarter, better targeted action?

Read or re-read the workshop on communication tools like SET DEARMAN and PUVAS (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0). Write up an email, or a script for a conversation that you could have with him that would use whichever tool seems best.

Then see how you feel about sending the email or ringing his doorbell and having the conversation. If you want suggestions, give it a try and see what we have to say for you here.

I too was going to suggest writing a script. Or? going into the bathroom and closing the door, say it to yourself into the mirror as you would if you were actually having a conversation with him.  Sounds a lil kinky but saying those words out loud sometimes gives a different perception than actually letting them rumble around in our heads.

Yeah I did it, and it felt funny, but I think it saved me from using words I'd later regret.

Is this kinda what you are feeling, without handing yourself over completely to him?

I wish things had worked out differently between us, and that we could have figured out a way forward, together.  I will really miss you.


P&C, it's so hard when you're in love with someone with this disorder  

Phoebe, yes, something like that would be a way of being myself without surrendering myself.  Thank you so much for distilling that.

Meanwhile though, I feel like I've had a sort of important though unwelcome insight.  He emailed today saying how excited he is about going.  And suddenly I recognized his emotional state.  It's the way he felt when we were dating.  This is a new chance, a clean slate.  It might be better.  There's hope.  He hasn't screwed this up yet.

I just can't be in love with him while he does that -- again.  It was him turning to another woman, rather than following through on the insights he claimed he had after our demise (that he needed to learn to be alone), that prompted me to start a long period of NC.  And now, it's like he's seeing another woman, though really, he's dating "Leaving."  His best girl.

I will be his friend (so am still "Staying" in that sense).  It's what I said I'd do and somehow I've gotten off track because he seemed to want to go important places with me emotionally.  But now he's having this affair with "Leaving" and I'm finished with being in love with him.  I can't stand hearing about his excitement that maybe walking away from everyone & everything could be just what he needs.

I do, truly, hate BPD.  We have so much together.  Since reconnecting with him I've experienced the reality of that, rather than the supernova feeling of our initial months together.  I really know him well at this point.  I like him.  I respect him (except for Leaving).  I love him.  We ought to be able to be happy.  But caring deeply about me just doesn't work for him.  It goes all haywire, his good feelings turn bad, and it's hard.  Better ... .  to Leave.

Ew   This reminds me of my ex-husband, who I strongly believe is a classic Narcissist, he did this exact same thing the day we filed for divorce   He truly believed that I would be on the same page as him and be equally excited FOR HIM.  My feelings didn't come into consideration - the feelings of loss of what we had or couldn't quite get to or agree upon... .   'We', 'Us'... .  Nope, 'HIM'.

What 'we had' was entirely different to each of us.      

I tried to be the bigger person and be friendly even after he moved away, but something kept gnawing at me... .   I realized it had always been about him and what I represented to him was a Mommy figure, a cheerleader.  Someone who would rally for him and build up his ego, no matter what.  :)idn't matter if we lived together or miles apart, in HIS mind, this is the role I was expected to play.  I know this for certain because of things he expected out of other people, as well.  Things that transpired during our marriage that I'd try to talk sense to him about lol  Not putting 2 and 2 together until I didn't have a choice in the matter for my own survival.


If your guy is anything like my ex, he's leaving because he's tired of having responsibilities.  Some of that might be about you, but the majority is more likely that he wants to be free of all of them in a collective whole and pursue his dream.  This is really about him.

P&C, you can stand by him and be his friend if that makes you feel better.  I would try and put as little thought and emotion into it though as possible, concerning him.  Make this about you and what you want in the future, for yourself.  So that you don't end up in this kind of dynamic again.

I was famous for 'looking for love in all the wrong places'.  Learn to love yourself

I don't think your guy is worthy of all your love and devotion.  I really don't.  I think as a human being he's worthy of exploring his dreams and I hope he finds his happy place, but I don't think he deserves to have you on the sidelines, cheering him on.

There are so many people right here in this community that care so much about you.  I hope you can feel it.  You have your own cheerleading section and choir!  I think it's safe to speak for many of us, that we want what's best for you and believe you have a ton to offer not only the right person... .  but the world!

What you have inside of you is bigger than this guy... .  

  

I can clearly echo what Phoebe says P&C!  You are worthy of soo much more!   

And can I just say? OUCH!  I sometimes, (more importantly recently), have begun to see in my own "unship" with my pwBPD, that I'm more that cheerleader and ego booster than anything else.  Great food for thought and one of the hundreds of reasons I continue to read and learn from everyone here in our community.

Go easy on yourself P&C, you've come a long long way, had tons of eye-opening revelations in a short period of time.  Try and just let all of this sink in and you'll find your path.

I'm still learning to 'trust my journey'

You guys are the best.  The BEST.  Thank you.

Phoebe, thank you for seeing exactly why that "I'm excited!" was so hard to hear.

And thank you for saying you don't think he deserves what I am trying to give.  You all know the problem though.  I am still trying to redeem that original feeling that we are each other's "person;" that he really saw me, really "gets" me, really wanted me for reasons I want to be wanted.  I see now that some of that was mirroring and some was his own need to be rescued.  But some of it was real, and now we've made it more real, and in his own way, he has been doing the best he knows how to do -- trying to follow his own path, independent of any relationship, trying to figure out who he is.

So for me to insist that he prioritize our relationship precisely when he probably needs to stand apart from relationships, is complicated.

Yet it is also not OK for him to ask for and take so much from me, and then not understand the connections and bonds that come along with that.

The good news about him leaving is that I will have to stop this perhaps-futile project of trying to do the perfect thing that will allow him to trust me.  He will either make that progress on his own, or he will not.  I will either hear about it later, or I will not.

At this point I have no idea what I am going to say when I see him this week.  I'll let y'all know.  I suspect it is going to be some sort of intense heart to heart about all of this because I am feeling I have little to lose, there may not be another chance, and there are things I don't want him to leave without hearing. But for today, I am going to try to iron, and straighten, and let my mind un-bend a bit doing activities that are unrelated to this, and see what occurs to me as the right thing to do.

Seriously, you guys are ... .  incredible.  Thank you.