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Well I'll start with I'm not freaked out like the old days, but I can't deny it's hard to figure out... .  or maybe I know exactly what it is.

So we're NC for three years and then in contact on and off since October... .  our last outing together she starts to ask about an us again... .  then poof off the radar... .  

Ahh BPD... .  

Hey New Start--I was wondering how that was going.  Have you been trying to communicate, & is she responding? How were things left?

If it's any comfort, it's highly likely she'll be back. You might just give her a "the light is still green" neutral/warm contact in the next day or so if you want to help that along.

But then of course the question is: is this something you want?

I'm really wrestling with that too.  I keep agonizing over my decision 18 months ago not to plunge back in w/my uBPDbf when he offered that, instead saying he should figure out what went wrong the first time, & how we could deal with it next time.  Instead of doing that figuring, he immediately pursued someone else. That's over now & we are friends. When I get anxious about whether I made a wrong choice back then, my T points out that today, as intimate friends, my ex gets strange & withdraws after we've been close & then I am a little bit slow to answer a text.  Why would I think we could have been OK starting up again as lovers?

That's all logical & all, I know, but I imagine for you as for me, something is preventing that obvious answer from being the end of the story. Formally, as you know, I've resolved this problem by saying we should only be friends unless something changes for him (though Staying board folks know I'm super conflicted about that as our long-term outcome).  Because I can handle (sorta, & improving) the disappearances from a friend. Not from my partner ... .  & the truth is, this man disappears. For now.  I have to accept that.

So for you -- friends only might be one resolution. Going all the way into a romantic/sexual r/s may be an option too. Asking this for us both though: have our pwBPD shown enough insight into their emotional patterns for us to have any reason to think they won't pull back hard if we were to go there? And can we handle that? I can't.

What's more, I don't want to. That would be evidence that he's struggling with intimacy w/o viable tools. I don't want to do that to him. Right now he's not seeing anyone (I think) & is making some headway trying to define for himself who he is outside a r/s. I want to let that happen.

So. The question, NS, is--setting aside longing & wishful thinking, what do you actually want given the realities you know?

I'll be working on that one along with you

:light:

I'm glad you're not as freaked out as you used to be and appear to be leaning more toward accepting that this is the pattern.

Also, she's still seeing someone else, so... .    Her behavior seems to be consistent with that.

Is there anything you can do to change this, change her?  What are your options?  What are your boundaries and values where a romantic relationship is concerned?

What do you want NewStart?  The behaviors and this dynamic seem to be very entrenched. 

Hi Newstart, this is exactly the ups and downs which are so difficult and not healthy for us to be in emotional limbo. Having a friendship or romantic relationship with someone whos there for u one day and gone the next is something I cant deal with anymore. I also think its hard,  very difficult if not impossible to switch these romantic feelings off of a person who was an ex lover. Just my two cents. I wish u the best whatever you decide.

Hey P&C - Well I thought we left it very well we had a great evening of really starting to talk through some of the behaviors and feelings that were destructive in our relationship and really started to break down some barriers.  After that evening she texted me thanks for such a wonderful night and that she couldn't wait to do it again.  Next she looked me up on the weekend and I already had plans so I couldn't join her and after that I sent her a few texts and left her a vm and she hasn't responded to a thing... .  frustrating for sure... .  but, as Phoebe123 pointed out I'm starting to accept this as a pattern... .  

The question you've all kind of asked is what do I want and maybe that's the big problem because I'm so conflicted.  On one hand I feel like I could never have a meeningful relationship with this woman as she would eventually destroy whatever we were to build and then on the other hand I so immensly just enjoy her company and her being that I wonder if it's worth trying... .  

Friendship or romantic relationship... .  well I went in thinking friendship and she's asked the questions alluding to maybe moving towards something more... .  and the problem there... .  is in the back of my mind I can't shake the feeling of wondering if this is all real or is she just setting the emotional hooks to keep me available?

I don't know... .  is this part of the 'fog' again?

It may be some FOG, probably fear more than anything.  But, it's okay to feel a little conflicted about where this is all going with her.  It's pretty common to want all the good parts of these relationships (and there are some pretty good parts) and not want any of the bad parts (and there are some pretty bad parts too).  It can be frustrating.

Try to focus on what it is you want out of a relationship with her, and whether she is capable of giving you what you need right now.  Listen to you gut.

I dunno Newstart, maybe try to adopt the attitude (because its true) that she can come and go as she pleases, just as you can.  She is not tied to you as you are not tied to her. You both have seperate needs. What can you control about this situation?  

How you respond and how you deal with your own emotions?  

You are adopting this attitude for you, not her.  Its for YOUR sanity.  Understand that you must hold your side of it or you will become bitter.  Go out, dont be available all the times, do things you like to do.  :)etach with love. If you reach out to her and she ignores you.  

Go into plan A mode.  Set your boundaries regarding how you will react when you are feeling ignored.  This website can help you to do that.

Have that plan ready and you wont be left without knowing what to do.

I set a boundary for my relationship that I wont chase him.  When things get rough, I fall back on that.  I will reach out, but if he doesnt respond, I wait until he does.  I leave the ball in his court.

Also for the idealization to nothing part... .  Allow yourself to enjoy the idealization because its nice to feel those things.  I love to be loved.  Nothing wrong with that.  Just understand that there is another side to that and that its no bad reflection on you, its just how she handles her feelings.  Let it go.

 

That's great advice, I need to keep it in perspective and not take it personally.  I think the big trap for me is to be drawn in and to want more when she opens up and truly gives to me.  But we all know the score, as soon as I show interest... .  she disappears... .  hardly the relationship/friendship that I was looking for, but I'm growing as a person because of it.

Thanks for helping to calm some of my frustrations and glad that this time around I at least know what I'm getting into... .  and my gut tells me not to get in to deep... .  now if I can follow my gut and not my heart... .  

The relationship may not be what you thought it was or what it could be, but what you thought it was probably wasnt something that was realistic.  I know for me, this is why I jumped into it the first couple of hundred times head first.  It was too good to be true.  I am much happier  now with the realistic view, and I enjoy the good and get over the bad, always taking care of me.  

laelle - Yes I'm taking a more realistic view and she really said some things the other night that drove home the point of who she can't help but be.  One thing sticks in my mind, she said she loved me more than anyone she's ever loved, but because of this she's afraid of our love... .  that she couldn't go through that type of pain again... .  

It's disappointing on so many levels that it can't be more, but it seems destined for a fragmented relationship that can never truly be.

I wouldnt completely give up hope there.  Using the tools will help you to deal with your emotions better, thereby helping her to deal with hers better.  Sometimes small changes is all it takes. 

laelle - I don't know, I think I'm out and going to kindly back away.  Just saw her in our small neighborhood we drove past each other so even if she'd 'forgot' to respond to any of my messages well that would have sparked a response. 

I don't know, I'm not spun up like I used to get but now I see the pattern and it's kinda selfish and annoying me right now.  Yeah, she said all the right things but once again it feels a lot like just a ploy to see where my mind was.  I don't know maybe some knowledge of BPD is both a good thing and a bad thing.

Honestly, now if she contacts me again... .  I feel like just ignoring it... .  

NS--I think her comment to you is interesting (that she is afraid of your love because she is afraid something will go wrong & she will get hurt). Makes sense that that could be true, doesn't it? Or does that ring false to you?

Laelle, you optimist ... .  do you have thoughts about how NS could communicate in this situation when she raises the issues about being scared of their love?

P&C - Gotta tell you that as much as I'd love to figure this out with my BPDexgf this is just becoming not worth it.  So amazing on one hand, but I'm 44 years old What the heck am I doing, here I am once again second guessing my 'normal' behavior and how it might have triggered her 'abnormal' behavior because I'm getting the silent treatment.  Sorry maybe I'm just tired and cranky, but I am once again just frustrated.  Not PTSD, not ruminating none of the old bad garbage.  This time I'm just exhausted from flakey behavior.

Overal, the reconnection has served it's purpose to banish the bad energy and maybe now it's time to slowly back away?

Again, I'm not melting down like the old days just really reflecting on how much this crazy thing is really worth to me.  I've seriously backed away from friends for less than this as I'm particular about who I hang out with, but I keep this going?

P&C- I guess I am an optimist because ive personally seen the difference a few changes make.  :)

Newstart

I cant say in her case if what she is saying is true, because I dont know her.

I can say that people can have great anxiety and fear over losing someone that they love.  They also know in their past they have lost people

that they loved because of behavior they felt they could not control.  

If you knew you would eventually lose someone that you love more than anything else in this world (idealization) because of something that you do that you can not stop doing, how do you think you would react?

If it were me, (maybe not today, but last year), I would run and go fill up my hopelessness with people in my life that I am not afraid to lose.

As far if he can do anything about it, I would say no.  Any real progress would need to come from her recognizing it and working on it.

It may however, give him some peace that goes with understanding.

Not to take a step back on this, but if the BPD person in your life is running away because she is engulfed, This website has some great tools on how to help with that.  :) Yes, i truly am always the optimist.  I know how hard it must be for you.  The building up and knocking down took a huge emotional drain on me every time it happened.  It sucked the life right out of me.  My partner and I did eventually get past this tho will those cool tools. 

You know I think there is a the big piece that you mention here, this woman is over 40 and I don't think she's doing any work to change.  She doesn't have to, she has always found someone to love her and has always had a string of exes to hang around and validate her so I don't think she will. 

She said other things that really pointed to BPD as well like "I don't know, I just can't be alone, I have to be in a relationship... .  " and "When it comes to relationships I just have no brake pedal... .  ".

I don't know... .  it's like I've said before sometimes a little info on BPD is a dangerous thing for me because on on hand this could be running from someone truly loved and on the other it could be total manipulation to keep me around because her currnet relationship is on the rocks?

Do I try to break the silent treatment and just ask?  But then if I do who's to say that I'd even get an honest answer, because I know this woman and when things went south with us the first time she was ANYTHING but honest.

You can break the silence without JADEing.  You have no control of her or her lies, all you can do is protect yourself from the outcome of them.

That is, if your interested in staying in the relationship.  

Make contact.  Hey, whats up... .  If you want to talk, im here.  You dont have to have an emotional moment here.  Take your time and dont play a part in her drama.  

I thought I use to see you on the leaving board.  I know I felt a little pressure to make quick decisions regarding my relationship and what was then in NC.  There is no hurry here.  Your no less a person because you stand still.  Continue to learn.

Me, I would take the general attitude that if you cant be bothered to acknowledge me, I wont be bothered to care.

use mindfullness and it will help to make that boundary a part of you.

laelle - You are right, the piece that I have found works the best is the stance that "I would take the general attitude if you cant be bothered to acknowledge me, I wont be bothered to care". 

This time I was frustrated as she broke into a territory of continuing a relationship of more than just friends, revisited some deep parts of our relationship then POOF gone... .  so yes I need to take a step back, breath and remember not to care... .  but, it's hard when I do care.

I understand NS.  Your situation is really difficult.  You cant have a relationship with someone who cant have a relationship as lovely and well intentioned as they may be.  All you can do is protect you, and if its still something you want to per sue, dont lose hope. 

Sometimes when I email my boyfriend, I count the minutes that it takes for him to respond as if its a gauge to how much he loves me.  Sometimes I look up and its been hours and I dont even care. Why with the same scenario do I respond differently with each?

I would really love to get to a place where I feel so secure in me and how I feel about things, who I am, where I am going... .  that a moment of time cant not gauge anything for me. 

Sounds stupid writing it out, make any sense to you?

laelle - No makes perfect sense and each time this happens as I step away and a few days pass I mellow.  It's just funky when one minute messages have been as regular as... .  well as regular as contact with anyone else that we have 'normal' contact with and then the next minute we get the silent treatment.  Let's face it if a normal friend or colleage behaved like this it would be quite upsetting.

So yes today I'm breathing and letting go of expectations... .  and I know it's probably not right, but when and if she messages back I'm thinking I'm going to ignore it... .  

Taking your time to answer to feel your feelings on it fair enough. not answering because your playing tit for tat is only going to lead to more problems.

Not answering at all and being done with it... .  If you think its whats best for you.

I think this is true. . .and for me personally, I drifted into the tit for tat because I was uptight about the 'is it' or 'is it not' manipulation stuff.  Leave it for a reasonable amount of time, is there's a no show just a simple text - 'just checking to see you're OK' or whatever.

Although it's very hard when you're on the end of it, try not to take it as personal manipulation. . .more 'in the moment', that's why you have to try and live more in the moment too.  I think you said previously she is in a r/s?  If so, let's face it, she's juggling. . .and so her emotions must be - maybe this has something to do with her disappearing acts.  But, you are unsure too.  I would hold strong boundaries until she does something concrete about her current r/s e.g. she ends it, to show she wants to seriously continue your r/s with her.  I should imagine her words are maybe not so much manipulative or lies but are to test your boundaries.


Still spins you out somewhat though doesn't it!  Perhaps it's time to break the pattern. . .from you, as well as her. 

Good Luck   

Hey sm15000 - Yeah it's not a no show it's a couple of texts and voicemail messages, but still frustrating as any friend would have checked back.

Also, I don't want to be the one who keeps checking in only to get a zero response.  Or should I be sending one that asks if everythings ok and if she wants to talk?

Yes, she is in a relationship but if I'm just waiting around I'm just rebound food for the needy right?

Again, hard game to play as with a BPD it's aways hard to figure if it's real or if it's a game... .  

Probably the best step is to leave it be for now and not think about it... .  and see how I feel when/if she reaches out again.

And then... .  out of the blue she's back... .  so I wait a few hours to let her know I have plans when she's asked me to do something, which is true... .  but, now this is two times in a row I'm busy... .  my bet... .  the silent treatment gets more intense.  Oh well, sent her a message asking if she's ok because she's been off the grid for a bit... .  guess we'll see.

BPD... .  oh what fun!

I think simple rejection fears are undoubtedly playing out for her here. She's made herself vulnerable to you by telling you her feelings & fears. Now you're unavailable twice ... .  can you just offer an alternative time, if you haven't?

I say this even though, if it were me, I would not go so far down this road while she's in a r/s with someone else. But if you want to set that aside & engage in this discussion under those circumstances --& no judgment, I just wouldn't feel safe -- I think you need to provide a little reassurance that you too are trying to prioritize this. Sounds to me like you're both feeling very defensive & scared.

Hey P&C - I did offer alternate time and no response... .  not really sure what to do at this point other than sit back and wait I guess?

Yea, but don't 'sit back' and wait, unless you're tired and need the rest.  It's the 'waiting' part that needs your attention. How can you build up your own life while you've got this time on your hands? 

I hear you Phoebe, and I'm not waiting around I'm living my life and we'll see if that works for her I guess.

My message if everything was ok seemed to get her re-engaged... .  now we'll see how she responds... .  seems bummed as my reschedule offer doesn't work either and I'm heading out of town for the weekend... .  oh well, have to live my life right?

Right!  |iiii 

It must be hard because deep down you still seem like you want a r/s with this woman but you will only be rebound food for the needy if you let yourself be.  :)on't play the game.  Be honest with your feelings (what you would like & how you feel about her) but be firm on your boundaries.  :)o you know what they are?

If you have offered an alternative and there is no response, you are right, carry on with your plans.  I think this is the most important factor you will have to overcome with her. . .that she may be part of your life but not all of it  |iiii

It's funny, we had a great conversation on the phone on Friday and she wasn't able to do anything with me this weekend because she had her daugter so I headed out of town skiing... .  then poof off the radar and no responses to a couple of texts while I was out of town.  I could have almost guessed it, I don't know maybe she feels abandoned... .  heck who really knows why this woman does the things she does.

sm15000-you bet it's tough because she would be an amazing woman in some respects to spend the rest of my life with... .  but on the other hand unless she seeks REAL help she can be the biggest nightmare too... .  

Her and I really need to continue our conversation because we started to break into some of that territory before the night ended... .  and I think she knows and really wants to talk about it.

NS:

You are trying to figure out her actions/reactions based on normal social behaviors.

Until you understand that BPD is a mental disorder that includes the word insane, you'll continue the dance of insanity. 

How much time have you taken to really study or understand the symptoms of BPD?  You've been working on yourself and your anxiety, but perhaps you should take some time to really, intensely learn about BPD and how it manifests in people.

Just my thoughts... .  your ex is angry at you.  You had a great evening and she was interested THAT night, that moment, in talking about your relationship together.  Then you were busy the next day.  To a borderline, that was complete rejection.  You are indifferent= you don't care.  If you do care, you smother and scare her.  You were/are being punished.  If you don't play along to her feelings, you will be punished.  She thinks you are mocking her.  She also admitted that she did some things to hurt you, she can't see anything other than herself as being BLACK.  There is no grey.  She did you wrong... .  she is awful.  So then why are you wanting more from her, she asks, since she is so BLACK?  Oh, it's bc you are now BLACK and now she is WHITE.  She is being stalked by you and she is now in control.  She must be such a wonderful person and you are so awful that you aren't worth her time. Oh, you're off of her radar.  Oh, we just passed each other, I remember him.  I need to call him.  He turned me down again.  I am awful.   No, wait.  He's the one dating another woman and now he is flirting with me.  That's bad.  Society says that's bad.  I will ignore him.  I feel so alone.  I need to call someone.  Oh this guy responds to me.  I am thinking about him.  I remember him again, I loved him.  He was the love of my life.  Oh wait, Dave is calling.  Dave is the love of my life.  Oh, Dave told me he loves me more than life itself, I feel so scared.  I hate myself. I need to do something to relieve this pain, I'll call NS, oh yes, I feel distracted, better.  NS is my night in shining armor... .  here we go again. 

That last paragraph was written so... .  insanely, on purpose. 

Sorry, NS, you can't make sense of crazy.  You can't react around it either.  In doing so, it makes your actions insane as well.