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It's been common theme here over the years -  particularly from the men - that the ex's are "crazy hot" (a description I just read in another thread.)  If I've read this once, I've read it a thousand times - in some, way, shape, or form. 

We women have that same attraction, but it seems to be more of an emotional attachment.  The women here rarely go on and on about how "hot," their ex is.  We might talk about a physical attractiveness, but it isn't mentioned constantly - over and over and over again.

The attraction we have to our exes -- whether physical, emotional or otherwise is very strong, but really... .  what's with the "hot" description?  I really do want to understand. This description has been used about me by some of the men in my life -- it always feels uncomfortable to me. It really just feels demeaning and very shallow to me. I would much rather someone describe the qualities of my character, than use such a shallow description of me.  It makes me feel that they think I have no substance and that I'm being judged solely on the way I look.  And isn't it true that no one is "hot" to everyone?  One person's version of "hot" can be another person's version of "gross!"

I see many beautiful people in my line of work. Some of them are the ugliest creatures on the planet.

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder.  I've seen pics of some of the people here that are referred to as "hot."  I'm not saying they aren't attractive, but "hot?"  I don't know.  Maybe I just don't get what "hot" means.  All I know is that it has an extremely negative connotation to me and I bristle every time I read it.

Am I just way off base?

turtle

You make a great point turtle, but there is a science in why men are more focused on attraction then women. (apparently if scientists are to be believed)

The way it apparently goes is that it derives from our caveman instincts. The males look for a female that will be a healthy mother to their offspring, ie big hips, curves in the right places, healthy looking etc.

The women look for someone who will be dominant and will care for them and keep them safe, a macho confidant leader of the pack so to speak.

Now I don't know how true this is, its just something I've read on more than one occasion.

I am the guy that said 'crazy hot' lol, I think that maybe goes back to my self esteem issues. I've never been overly blessed with female attention, so when my 'crazy hot' ex came into my life, I couldn't believe my luck. You are right that, looks are great and that, but it is inner beauty that counts, and among the many things I've learnt from that R/S, its that inner beauty really is beautiful and it has changed my outlook on life

Edit. The reason I say hot is probably a force of habit, my BPDex used to say to me she didn't like being called beautiful and pretty, she wanted to be 'hot' and sexy. So I hot used to calling her hot. I apologize if it offends you, it wad not my intention

I know what you mean Turtle and no you are not at ALL off base.  I too have been referred to as "hot" or a MILF.  The first several times I didn't even know what that was.  I consider myself cute at best and that's on a good day.  :)   I find all the crazy hot references kinda unnerving.  Maybe because that's how my BPD referred to his girlfriend before me.  When I saw her see was no better looking than me or anyone else for that matter.  Not ugly, not gorgeous, and definitely not "hot".   I know the ex had to think this to make himself feel better about himself.  I kinda get that from him ... .  but not sure what to think when we hear it here.    

In all fairness ... .  I do remember thinking in the beginning that my exBPDbf was good looking.  I don't any more ... .  once the me washed off it was kinda like looking at a mud fence.  Fortunately for him ... .  he's a cop and therefore gets to date way above his looks scale.  Guess the uniform hides a whole lot of ugly, but eventually it seeps out of the seams.  

Anyway ... .  I hope we hear from the guys here.  

Just another word for attractive.

Men are visual, but I think you diminish woman’s ability to do this too. Put up a hunky guy on yours or anyone else’s facebook page and see the reaction that the woman post. Physical attraction matters, period. There are several billion years of evolution at play in this attraction. As trevjim posted, at its heart is the biology of reproduction. Of course our complex human society does not allow for caveman tactics in picking a mate.

There really is no science behind the comments we see on here. You know full well that a very small % of people actually comment than just read so that biases the conclusions immediately. Also most of us on here, especially in the beginning when things are most raw are searching for some sense to it all and will grasp at anything that sounds like our story.

Just a hypothesis and certainly nothing conclusive but my sense is that a “hot” person with BPD can and should be more successful at “playing the BPD game” than a more ordinary person. I know mine was… since she was very attractive (not just my opinion) she had no trouble at all moving onto the next guy. We will not get any real sense of whether that is true or not from this website though because of what I mentioned above.

Absolutely, my ex was 'hot' not just my opinion, way out my league in terms of looks, and each time we argued and I left even just for a day,she would sleep around because she could. I think this made her BPD worse as attention and sex was so easy to come by. Think of a heroin addict trying to get sober, if heroin wasnt around, they would stand no choice but to try and get better, but if they could just go to the first guy they see and ask for some, its going to be a lot easier to use again (not a great metaphore lol) and of course I would be pissed of at her antics and then we would argue and her BPD behaviors would be worse. She also would and probably has got into a relationship with the first guy who came along now as she is 'hot' and easily attracted him.

Also as a certain miss Monroe demonstrated, being 'hot' is one things, but being a hot woman that is in need of rescuing (BPD behavior) it really plays on a male's attraction

I'm not offended. Not at all.  I just want to understand. Over the years, there have been many discussions here about the use of the word "hot."  Some of them were very heated - lol.  

Maybe it's just my own frame of reference about the reference of "hot."  I'm sure that's part of it.  To me... .  the word "hot" implies bimbo, mindless, and slutty.  So, of course, the fact that your ex wanted to be described as "hot" and "sexy" feels extremely negative to me.  


And this is a prime example of what I'm talking about here.  You remember thinking he was "good looking."  That feels more than reasonable to me.  lol.  No where are you going on and on about how "hot" he was.


Really?  Am I really that off base here?  If so... .  please tell me.  When you --- jdcthunder14 --- read the word "hot" over and over and over again, does it really just mean "attractive" to you?




I agree that men are visual.  They make that very clear - lol.  

Again, maybe it's just me, but a) I would never post a picture of a hunky guy on my f/b page, and b) I would never comment on a post with a pic of a hunky guy.




I absolutely agree with this!  It DOES matter, but the obsession with it by some just gets to me sometimes.




Hmm... .  are you sure about that?  lol.  I've encountered a few cavemen in my lifetime.


This is very true and thank you for that reminder.


I like that you used the word "attractive."  And... .  of course our exes were not just attractive in our eyes.  There are a lot of attractive people in the world!


What an absolutely UGLY thing to do.  I don't care what the outside package looks like - this is disgusting behavior - not pretty or attractive at all!

turtle

Wow ... .  all this kinda puts you guys at a disadvantage.  If George Clooney walked up and hit on me, I would immediately know something was not right.  That would be a much more noticeable flag to me than anything my BPD presented.  That's not to say we don't appreciate attractive men.  IMO ... .  we just tend to play more in our own league.  I have also noticed this from time to time on dating sites.  I have a realistic view of my appearance, and I have several mirrors, so I don't wink at the "hottest" guys.  I'm more interested in the ones that are more at my level on the appearance scale.    It's all sort of fascinating.   :)

Turtle.

For me it is yes, just a word that is used by many men and women to describe attractive.

As to the hunky guy, of course not everyone does stuff like that but I have a few woman facebook friends that have and the comments almost always mention that he is so "hot."

Speaking of terrible behavior... .  at one point in the relationship with mine she told me of a time in her life when she was with a different guy every night, just dismissing them in the morning, she described herself as quite a btch. Funny that I was at all surprised that she cheated on me with such an skewed moral compass.

It may be an egotistical statement but mine wasn't out of my league... .  I have been with very attractive women before. Actually my ex and I talked about this very thing in the beginning. I told her that I was not going to be enamored by her looks and I most certainly wasn't looking for a trophy.

Okay.  I will think about changing my negative connotation for the word "hot."  I don't know though.  Something about that word feels very off to me.  Not only here, but in my own personal experiences and in our society as well.


Well... .  we've all had that "a-ha" moment where we realize we shouldn't have been surprized when they behaved EXACTLY like they told us - or showed us - that they would. Sort of leaves you sitting in the corner feeling like a fool, doesn't it?  I know I felt like a total fool more times than I can count.

turtle

I think this is a very insightful comment!

turtle

I don't think this is an egotistical statement.  I think it's an honest assessment.  Now... .  if you said "I've been with many "effing hot" women before,"  I would dismiss everything you said next.  lol.

... .  made her BPD worse as attention and sex was so easy to come by. Think of a heroin addict trying to get sober, if heroin wasnt around, they would stand no choice but to try and get better, but if they could just go to the first guy they see and ask for some, its going to be a lot easier to use again (not a great metaphore lol) and of course I would be pissed of at her antics and then we would argue and her BPD behaviors would be worse. She also would and probably has got into a relationship with the first guy who came along now as she is 'hot' and easily attracted him.

Also as a certain miss Monroe demonstrated, being 'hot' is one things, but being a hot woman that is in need of rescuing (BPD behavior) it really plays on a male's attraction[/quote]
I think Trevjim hit the nail on the head here, at least in my personal experience.  My exwBPD is very attractive by most people's accounts and a simple observation of her behavior since I've known her, as well as what I know about her behavior before us, shows me that her looks are a tremendous aide to her in being able to repeat her cycle.  She can end a relationship now and needn't wait a few hours for more men to come calling. All she has to do is change her Facebook relationship status to "single" and in come the requests; which is why she does that. I think it must be common for children, especially "pretty girls", to have their looks over-emphasized to a point where it is harmful to their emotional development.  I feel very confident this was the case with my ex, as I know her mother is a shallow person and no doubt contributed to this phenomenon.  Case in point: My ex was hospitalized for 5 days and diagnosed with BPD.  When she got out, we had a chance to talk for a few hours before she moved out and I started NC.  She shared with me the results of an exercise she had been asked to do by her Dr at the hospital.  He asked her to list her perceived strengths and weakness on a piece of paper.  #2 on the strengths side was "good hair".  I've come to realize that her looks are one of only a couple things she "knows" about herself.  Her job, her looks, and how she uses her looks to manipulate people would pretty much round out the list of what she knows about herself, in my opinion.  

Wow.  That is very sad.

If I never see or hear the term Crazy Hot or Porn Star Sex again it would be a Good thing!

Men are more visual than women, and humans like and seek attractive partners.

However, the language we use says something about our values and beliefs. We speak of partners in Marketing/packaging terms today... .  it's become the norm. And, the standard for what is considered an attractive package has become so extreme that it's hard to achieve without surgical interventions... .  crazy hot doesn't really exist in nature. Associating a beloved partner with porno or being a profession sex worker 30 years ago would have been considered an insult... .  people still liked having sex with there wives 30 years ago... .  we got along fine without hardcore porn in your face 24/7 for centuries.

So is it any wonder we have unsatisfying relationship experiences with our target "package"? We all use to know at some level looks really don't matter... .  though we all chuckled at our instinct "to look".   Now it's changed to " looks matter the most" and gee... .  I hope theres a person there somewhere inside that package. Well, often there's not. That person is too busy lifting weights at the gym and fretting over how to get money for a boob job to develop a real sense of self. So, we get exactly that which we seek.

I so, so, so, agree!


Maybeso... .  Can I just say that I think you're fabulous?

|iiii

I think looks do matter, for me, there has got to be emotional and physical attraction. sure it can go so far and become shallow, and meat heads and barbie dolls are incredibly unattractive personalitys, but that doesnt mean we should just let ourselves go, I lift weights and do alot of cardio, 1 because i enjoy it, and 2 because I like to take care of my body. If i was posting pics of my body on facebook etc, then Its gone to far and to vanity. I like to take care of my body and i would expect my girlfriend to at least take some pride in how she looks

Ive gone on a date with an incredibly good looking girl, however she was soo boring i decided not to have a second one, where as I have also met some wonderful girls who are great to be around, yet Ive no physical attraction to them.

Oh absolutely... .  now that I think of it she did a whole lot of "warning" me about what was coming. That infatuation stage blinds a person a bit though.

I couldn't agree more.  I can see how the phenomenon you're describing CREATES BPD.  At least in the case of my ex, I can certainly see how she and her mother's (and likely others) focus on her physical appearance played a part in preventing her from developing emotionally. Why develop emotionally when you can lure in "any man you want" with your looks?  I can't imagine this isn't common and could be why BPD MAY be more common in women.  My experience is that boys tend to be more commonly accepted/ embraced by their family and peers for any # of attributes which are usually at least slightly less shallow than physical appearance.  I know I had/ have plenty of male friends who aren't physically attractive by conventional standards, but they're funny, entertaining,  talented, etc and, therefore, attract people.  With women, and particularly in the case of adolescent girls, it seems their looks are considered much more heavily by anyone attracted to them; even often in platonic relationships.  My personal theory is that this is why you hear a lot of people describing their BPDex as "hot".  Obviously I don't think my explanation encompasses all the factors, and I agree that our physical perception of them can be skewed by our own emotions,  but I can see how "pretty people" wind up developing BPD traits more often than "not-so-pretty" people.  We've all heard the phrase "she/ he gets by on their looks".  I can see how this phrase would apply to a lot of pwBPD and even see how it contributes to them "becoming" a pwBPD.       

Yep.  Blind as a bat!


I think the bolded part is absolutely reasonable, trevjim.  Absolutely.  I also take care of myself and I would expect a partner to do the same.  

And your second paragraph here is exactly what I'm talking about.  This girl was "incredibly good looking," but you weren't attracted to her.  So... .  what makes your ex "crazy hot," so "hot" that you put up with such horrible behavior,  yet the incredibly attractive girl is boring.  THAT'S what needs to be examined.

This idea of "hot" is so over the top that it just gets to me sometimes.

There was a poster here who actually said to me. "I don't care that my gf treats me like ~, cheats on me, lies to me, betrays me, manipulates, and rages. She's so "hot," I'm willing to put up with it."  So... .  I asked to see a photo.  I thought that she was attractive, but certainly not over the top.  And in the photo I saw, she looked like a "slut" and that term fits her behavior.  All I could say to him was "well, you've made your choice... .  enjoy!"

Bottom line is we all have to define the fallacy of our own definitions about what is and isn't acceptable to us.  If a person decides that having a psychotic "hot" girl friend - and living in chaos, insecurity and insanity is more important than not being treated like crap... .  then that's their choice. They just shouldn't be surprised or hurt when they wear other people out by complaining about how horrible it all is.

I realize this works for women too, but it's usually in a different arena -- not looks.  I certainly had to come to terms with my own definitions about what is and isn't acceptable to me too - and I had to really define what my priorites were for a relationship.  And although mine didn't center around looks... .  some of the priorities I had were totally off kilter.

turtle

My ex attracted me emotionaly aswell. In hindsight it was probably mirroring. Either way we really got on a 'clicked' plus I had worked with her for a year and knew I got on as a friend.

Having been with her though, the fact she was so good looking was great for the physical side of the relationship, but it caused me so much paranoia which turned into jelousey when she would sleep about. So it is a double edged swoard when trust is an issued and when they betray any trust you do cling on to.

When I met my ex, I had been working in the downtown area where there are many glamorous, gorgeous model types.  I interacted with them nonstop, but only on a business level.  My intuitive sense tells me to stay away from 99% them.  I can smell the attitude.  I can tell they are they type that would only talk to someone wearing a suit and driving a BMW.  Maybe it's projection on my part.  Or maybe it's intuition.  I feel like I can tell when we are the same page with just a brief interaction.

Nevertheless, I met my ex in the same area.  And although she was maybe a 9 (to speak in our shallow male terms), her personality was welcoming, friendly, down to earth.  What she SEEMED to have on the inside made her more beautiful than any of those women.  I want someone I find visually AND intellectually/emotionally appealing.  I was immediately drawn to her because she seemed to have that core of a good, caring, warm person.  And to top it all off, she must've had the same vibe from me because she gave me her number without my asking.

She became the most beautiful woman in the world to me.  Even if I did look at other women, I never thought, "I would rather be with her instead."  For the first time ever I thought "I am completely satisfied."

However, as time went on, I could see that down to earth quality was actually part of her innocent-style seductiveness, which was very hard to accept.  The wolf in sheep's clothing thing.  I originally thought her display of wholesomeness and being genuine was a reflection of her inner values.  That's what  originally drew me to her -- my belief that she wasn't a self-absorbed, heartless, shallow person.

(And, in fact, she was very smart.  She wasn't a bimbo.  )

I soon realized she was open and welcoming to everyone, more than I was comfortable with experiencing.  She would let guys ask her out and then tell them they could be friends and exchange numbers.  She would hold hands with other guys.  She would tell other guys she'd just met about her FOO stuff (leading them to believe that she was disclosing very personal information and therefore intimately interested).  Basically, no boundaries.

So, over time, I began to feel she was "out of my league" because it seemed as if I was always having to compete with other males, like she wasn't satisfied with me enough to stop doing these things I asked her to stop doing. 

I firmly felt that it was partly her responsibility to make me feel secure by not doing those things.  Right?  I mean as a good partner would do, right?

Anyway, guys were always asking her out and she always had guys texting her, so I began to feel I wasn't up to par which dragged my self-esteem down.  But I think she will always do that no matter what (or so I like to believe in order to think it wasn't just me).

She was asked to move to NY to be a model by a talent agent.  She was/is gorgeous and gets a lot of attention.  She admitted once that she knows how to get guys to do "whatever she wants" which really pissed me off.  "Beautiful people get what they want, isn't that right?" she said to me one time.

All my friends/co-workers told me how HOT (yes, that word) she is.

But I never felt like she wasn't mine or I wasn't good enough until the facade of her being MY woman started falling apart to reveal that she is a flirt (possibly a cheater) with everyone else who makes eye contact with her.

Anyway, I'm ruminating about my own story and going off topic, right?

If the debate is just over the word "Hot", I don't think it's derogatory or means slutty or anything.  But apparently the term has different meanings from each gender's perspective.  In my experience, guys never say "beautiful, gorgeous, attractive".   We say "hot".  And we don't say 'woman."  We say "chick" or "girl"(not dependent upon age).  And we call each other "dude", "man", "bro", etc.  It's just all very informal and casual vernacular, that's all.  Or maybe it has something to do with our social class.  Maybe if we were poet laureates, we'd say "That's quite an attractive woman upon whose tender bosom I'd like to lie."

I agree that culture is enabling BPD (I even have a thread about it). (I haven't been able to watch porn since the BU 8 months ago.  All I see is disordered women the few times I've tried to watch.) I agree that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  Sometimes I'm surprised what other guys see as ATTRACTIVE is vastly different from what I see as attractive.  That's a good thing, I think.

I would've been OK with being the only person in the world who thought my ex was BEAUTIFUL.  People could have vomited at the sight of her and I would've been OK with that.  Because to me she was the only one for me -- well, initially at least.

Maybe if I'd been doing the biological caveman thing and shoving away all the other guys I'd have been more attractive to her?  Maybe I did my biological part of seeking out a WOMAN who was attractive to me, but didn't properly do the mate guarding thing?  I just figured a woman that loved her man would behave in such a way to not be building an entourage of suitors all the while.  Maybe that's distorted thinking to think I should be the only guy in her life.  Still coming down from the roller coaster high... .  

Turtle - this is an interesting thread... .  

We all like beauty, honestly.  Men are more visual and woman more emotional in general - but that is not 100% either.

IMHO - I think the people who talk so much about "hot", "porn star", etc on these board is because they are using something outside of themselves to make them feel better, important, that they matter.  It has become an external validation of their worth - maladaptive coping to pain.

Overall, we all like attractive people - but we all don't tie our self worth to that... .  

OK - how is that for starting some controversy!   :)

Great post.

Sound like we dated the same girl!

Wolf in sheep's clothing is a very good description. My ex was also incredibly smart, and if hit on would take numbers etc, and was proud of the fact she could manipulate men.

She would also be very warming and friendly to peope, but nasty to myself and her mother etc.

These are all BPD traits though.

And yes, culture and class can have an outcome on what words we use.

               

What i would like to know is what happens to them when beauty fades.

Seems alot of the BPD women use looks to get what they want ( mine does all the time ) so what do they do when the looks fade. I know im not a good looking guy but for people who use there looks to get validation seems like that would be a very very scarey thought.

From what i have seen with women like men go off looks alot more when younger. What ive noticed is mid 20's for alot of women that shifts to i need more then just looks not to say that it dont happen with men i think at some point we all start looking for more then just a good body and pretty face.

Just my 2 cents

I bolded the word "became" because that's how getting to know people - whether romantically or otherwise - goes.  We see people and judge them based on what we see.  Isn't the statistic something like, you make your impression of a person within 3 seconds of meeting them?  I could be wrong about that, but I seem to remember reading that somewhere.  Anyway, as we get to know a person, that's when they BECOME beautiful, ugly, friendly, fun, boring, etc.


Absolutely no boundaries and NOT COOL!


 

You never should have had to ask her to stop.  It never should have been happening in the first place!


And there it is... .  the facade. Bleh.


Okay... .  this is a good point.  I don't like the word "dude" either.  lol.  Especially when women call each other "dude."  It just sounds ridiculous to me.


It IS a good thing.  I just find it curious that the people who refer to their exes as "hot" are usually convinced that the rest of us just don't really get how "hot" she is.  Maybe that's what bugs.  I don't know... .  all I know is it sure bugs!  And... .  every time -- without fail -- that I've seen a picture of the supposedly "hot" girl, I am completely underwhelmed and end up thinking.  So... .  this is what this man is giving up his dignity for?


I don't think this is distorted thinking at all.  I think it's odd for a person (male or female) to be building an entourage of suitors.  It's extremely disrespectful.  If a person feels they need to do that, then they shouldn't be in a relationship. And... .  I think it's odd for a person to build an entourage of suitors even when they aren't in a relationship. 

They become bitter and angry from what I've read on here about the older BPD types.  Some commit suicide.

Or, alternatively, maybe find a new angle to manipulate.  Play up the victim role more, become more promiscuous, turn to more aggressive conning.

Oh.  Some work on themselves.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. 

I don't think it's bad to talk about physical beauty or attractiveness.  In fact, I think it's an important part of our lives.  However, there are sure a lot of folks who tend to get stuck on that one theme!


I think as a "hot" person ages... .  if they haven't come to terms with who they really are and what is really important ... .  life gets very bleak.

I think with maturity, the definitions of a good body and a pretty face become very different. 

What used to be attractive to me in a man is very different now than it was when I was in my 20's - that's for sure! 


turtle

PART 1:

Turtle... .  This is an excellent question. Let me start off by saying that my thoughts about how 'hot' my ex is is completely not based in any reality. None. The last time I saw her I thought she looked like an old lady. But in my mind, she is the 'hottest' thing in the world. So, I agree with you. This has nothing to do with objectivity.

WARNING... .  THIS WILL BE GRAPHIC:

Here is my story... .  from the beginning. It hurts to tell. But I hope it helps:

When I first got involved with my ex, she seduced me. She seduced me hard. I was in a committed long-term relationship at the time. But she seduced me like crazy. At first, it seemed like harmless flirting. But it kept going. I was attracted to her. Sure. She was pretty. Smart. Funny. We got along incredibly well. She had long wavy red hair (dyed), long legs, beautiful green eyes. perfect breasts. She looked like a femme fatale from 1950s movies. I thought she was kind of 'hot' but I didn't think she was insanely good looking or anything. I didn't think she was totally out of the ordinary in terms of attractiveness. But, I thought she was attractive. The seduction started when we began to hang out. She would wear sexy clothing and show off her body while pretending not to do it. If I would check her out, she would give me a coy little look like what I was doing was wrong but she liked it. One day, she asked me if I had ever cheated on anyone before. I said no. She kind of looked at me like I was insane. I thought the question was weird but didn't think anything of it. A few days later, she got in a fight with her roommate and asked if she could crash at my place. She seemed pretty distraught. I said sure, I could sleep on the couch. Somehow, I don't remember how, we both ended up sleeping in the same bed. She kind of curled up next to me. I held her. She smelled amazing. Her skin was really soft. Her hair was brushed up against my cheek. And we fell asleep. Nothing sexual happened but it was insanely erotic.

The next day, I was heading back to see my girlfriend. I felt absolutely terrible and elated at the same time. I had connected with this person on such an intimate level. It was beyond sex. We didn't have sex. She was just so close to me. When I saw my girlfriend, I told her that I needed some time apart. She freaked out (as she should have). I thought I was going to be with this new girl. We had such a connection. A couple of days later, this new woman called me and told me she was staying with her boyfriend (someone who as 25 years older than her and who she claimed was an abusive alcoholic). I was devastated. I got back together with my girlfriend and chalked it up to a mental lapse. I stayed friends with the BPD ex and we continued to have a really deep connection. We ended up spending a few days together here and there. Nothing sexual. Just close connecting. This went on for about a year. I knew it was bad news. But we had a really great time together.

One night, her boyfriend finally dumped her. She had cheated on him with 3 or 4 other guys and he had enough. He dumped her. I was around so she called me and I went over to help her out. She tried to kiss me. I told her no. We kissed for about 30 seconds and then I pushed her off me and told her this wasn't right. She left in a panic. I left too. Scared. But oddly turned on.

We stayed friends for the next several months. I was working on my Master's thesis. She encouraged me and we spent a good deal of time together but I was struggling to get it done. One day, she told me: "I have amazing boobs. If you finish your Master's thesis, I will show you my boobs."

Ok. So. I am a man. And I can't say this didn't get me. Of course I wanted to see amazing boobs. But I said no. Over the next few months, she kept making it a joke and it became a joke between us. It seemed harmless but kind of turned me on. Then one day, she said it again and said that this time she meant it. I called her bluff. I really didn't think she would do anything. It was part of our joking around and I called her on it. And she lifted up her shirt and said if I finished my thesis, there would be more. At this point, she had gotten back together with her 'abusive ex'. I was still with my girlfriend. This put me into a tailspin. She did indeed have great boobs. And her whole coy, seducer thing combined with our seemingly amazing connection was intoxicating. I knew it was wrong. But I was seduced. The next several times I saw her, she would keep teasing me. She would lift up her shirt and do the dishes and pretend like nothing was going on. She would come to the door barely dressed and walk around like there was nothing going on. She would tease me. One day, I was in her room and she told me she wanted to show me some clothes she bought. She came out in some lingerie and walked around like there was nothing going. She would bend over and pose for me. And then she would walk away and then change into another outfit. And she would do the same thing. She changed into about 3 or 4 different outfits. I was brimming with lust and she could obviously tell. But I didn't want to do anything. I was extremely confused. I wanted her to stop and I didn't at the same time. I just didn't understand what was going on. And this is where it gets weird... .  GRAPHIC WARNING! I was leaving and she told me to come back and she told me to sit down to talk. I did (I was in a haze of lust and endorphins... .  ). She then asked me why I wasn't f*&$ing her and that I obviously wasn't a man and then she proceeded to masturbate in front me all the while telling me that I wasn't allowed to touch her. When she was done, she said she was sleepy and she went to bed. Needless to say... .  I was HOOKED. With every meeting, the boundaries got continually lowered. I was absolutely overcome with lust. Yeah. I thought she was 'attractive' before but nothing out of the ordinary. I thought she had great boobs and nice legs. I liked her hair and she had really pretty eyes... .  but as they say... .  'crazy eyes'. That's pretty much it.  I never saw her and thought she was drop dead gorgeous or striking or beautiful. She was in the classification of 'attractive' but not over the top. But now. Holy cow. After that, she was the 'hottest' thing I had ever seen.

I broke up with my girlfriend at the time. And me and my BPD ex had a torrid love affair. The sexual tension that had built up exploded. And she continued to seduce me. Each time we had sex, the seduction was greater and greater and greater. It started off kind of crazy (as you can see above) and it got crazier. She fulfilled my every fantasy. It is like she studied pornography in order to mimic it. In fact, I'm sure she did this. She told me so. And whenever there was lull, she would amp it up even more.

The entire time, I knew this girl had issues. They were obvious. Father abanonded her, mother was crazy, brother went to jail for selling crack, and on and on. The usual BPD stuff. And I knew I should stay away. But I was hooked. It was like an addiction. I had never felt that kind of incredible high before. We would have sex all the time. We had sex 8 times one night. Yes. 8. As a man, I didn't think that was physically possible. But, apparently it is. And we would have phone sex on top of this. Yes. Unbelievable but true.

After about 3 months of this, I broke it off. I couldn't take it any more. She started to be a bit crazy and started talking about having a family with me and wanting to grow old with me. And that freaked me out. I also thought it might be good for her to heal from her past 'abusive' relationship. I didn't want it to go on. So I broke up with her.

For about a year, we remained friends. Sort of. I told her that I didn't want to talk to her. 6 weeks later she called with some sob story. I got reeled back in trying to help her. I felt guilty for having this love affair with her and then ditching her. For the next year, we stayed pretty close friends. I kind of felt like I was doing it out of pity. She broke her leg. She broke her foot. We were both in grad school living out of town and she didn't have any friends or family. So I drove her around. I cooked for her. I took care of her. During this time, I never slept with her. I never wanted to. I didn't find her attractive at all. She was kind of this gross mess that would follow me around like a puppy dog. A sad, dysfunctional, broken puppy dog. She kept telling me we where meant to be together and that it was like we were in a Shakespearean drama of unrequited love. I thought she was crazy.

Fast forward another year. I was single. It was valentine's day. She was single. She called to see if we could hang out on valentine's day because it was a ___ty day to be alone. I said sure. She could come over to my place and we could watch a movie. She did. Somehow, we ended up having sex. I don't remember the details. It wasn't all that great. But I was hooked again. And the sex started to get amped up. I would try to break up with her and stop it over and over and over again. But we would hook up every few weeks. Each time, I would tell her I couldn't do it anymore. But somehow we still did. After several months of that, I just gave up and we entered into a more formal relationship. I was addicted to the sex. She had become the 'hottest' thing I had ever seen. The sex we had was like nothing I had ever experienced before. And the CRAZY thing about all this... .  I wasn't really even attracted to her! She had become this crazy hot sex goddess in my mind but in reality, I wasn't even attracted to her. On a deep, deep level, I thought she was nuts and her neediness was totally a turn off.

But, I was in grad school. As was she. She was leaving. So was I. I figured I was safe. That it was just easier to have crazy awesome sex and that the relationship would end and she would leave and I would leave and that would be that.

Enter more crazy sex... .  

We didn't officially break up the summer we both went home. She talked about moving back with me. I told her no. She went back home. We would have phone sex every now and again but nothing much. She would continually try to seduce me. I think she could sense I wasn't interested long term (I told her as such). Then she started to amp up the sex. She found this other woman that was super hot. And she told me she was going to have a fling with her and then call me afterwards to tell me how it was. Ok. Admittedly, a stupid male fantasy. But, a male fantasy come to life. I was on board. Why not? I thought. This sounded great and she lived thousands of miles away so why not? What could it hurt? And holy cow was it was it ever hot. Seriously. I would get photos. I would get phone calls. I would get detailed accounts. And she would tell me this while having phone sex with her. Ever adventure she had with this other woman was increasingly hot.

And that sucked me back in. Obviously. And now I was desperate to see her. The sex was now even more over the top. I became more addicted. She would tell me to come visit her and we could have threesomes. So I did. But they didn't materialize. But she would constantly hang that over my head. Dangle it like a carrot. But she would still dress up in all kinds of outfits and do the craziest things. She would seduce me like no other I have ever been with. It was literally like I was living in a porn, like this woman just stepped out of a sexy magazine and was there for my pleasure. And she would get off on the power which made her even sexier to me. She now had complete control over me. That was it. I was done. Cooked. I couldn't fight it any longer. And the long-distance relationship commenced.

I would put up with all the drama. All the neediness. All the abuse. All the chaos. I would just put up with it. The sex started to be used as a tool of control. She would dangle it in front of me and then tell me that I had to love her first. She would put me through all these tests like looking deeply into my eyes to see if I loved her. She would ask me incessant questions about my devotion to her. She would tell me all the things she loved about me and then get upset that my list wasn't as long as hers. I would do anything and put up with anything to just get the sex back. And she knew that. And she would get angry at me for 'grabbing at her' and she would get angry at me for me 'not finding her attractive anymore'. The usual confusing BPD mess and chaos. Pretty typical I can see now. Back then, it was a confusing ___ show. It made me feel terrible about myself.

After the abuse kept getting worse and worse and worse, I checked out. I didn't care anymore. I was still addicted to the sex but I didn't feel like putting up with abuse any more. At the time, I didn't label it as abuse. I just decided that there was nothing I could do about things anymore. That there was nothing I could say anymore. I couldn't engage with her to make anything better. I gave up. And the abuse got worse and worse and worse after that. One day after raging at me and she could tell I was giving up, she says: "I will have sex with another woman again if you like". She said that to me totally out of the blue. I wasn't interested. I thought that was madness. Doing something so potentially destabilizing while she was raging at me all day. It turned me off.

Now, the craziness... .  You guys ready for this? This is where I got completely insane. And this is what explains the 'hotness' thing.

I stopped trying to make things better in the relationship in order to get the sex back. I realized that there was nothing I could do anymore to make this relationship work. She came screeching down the stairs one night yelling at me that I just though she was a 'Crazy F'ing btch'. I wasn't thinking that. I was watching TV and not even thinking about her. But I looked at her and said, 'I didn't before, but now I do". And that was the truth. So I checked out. But I would fantasize about her. I would fantasize about her when she wasn't there. I would fantasize about her when she was with me. I would fantasize about her when we were having sex. Yes. You read that right. I would fantasize about have sex with her DURING sex. I couldn't get off with her unless I fantasized about her. And she would engage with me about them. She would help me fantasize about her while we were having sex. Think about that... .  and start to think about what that would do to a person's perceptions of another.

Part II: 


At this point, she truly was super human. She became dislocated from reality. She no longer lived in the world. She because this almighty entity that defined my sexuality. Every thought of sex had to do with her. Everything. She was it. The fantasies knew no boundaries. I could explore every facet of my sexuality with her as the main actor. This was easier for me to do than actually have sex with her. She would go to work and I was excited about that because it gave me the chance to fantasize about her. Seriously. I would RATHER fantasize about her. Even when she was in the room. I completely disassociated the reality of who she was and replaced it with a fantasy. I remember her just lying there doing some work and I fantasized about her while she lay next to me.

This fantasy is so incredibly and deeply engrained in me now. It is all consuming. Nobody can ever live up to it. Not even her. Seriously. That is how messed up I have become. The only thing that does it for me is this fantasy of a person who doesn't even exist, who never existed, who will never exist. A super human goddess of 'hotness'. I just wanted that high back. And this is what my mind did to get it back and keep it.

And that is part of the illness that I am now living with, as I am sure many of the other men on the board are also living with. The 'hot' person in our minds doesn't and never did exist. For me, this 'hot' person was built up as a direct result of the seduction and the abuse. It became my way of coping, my escape, my way to hold onto this person, my way of continuing to hold onto her. It is my way of dealing with the pain of what I was going through. It was a deal with the devil. I gave up my self for this fantasy that didn't even exist. I would put up with the worst kind of emotional abuse so that I could live in this fantasy, so that I could continue to have sex. And this sex wasn't even with another person. This sex was with this super human non-person that only lived as a construct in my mind. My mind created it. I was groomed for it. It is now wired like this. And it was used to control me, to accept the raging and the abuse and the demands.

So don't be offended by the remarks on 'hotness'. I'm sure many of the men will be able to relate to my story. This is the impact that it has had on me. And it sucks. It is horrible. It is hideous. My ex abused me. She took the one thing away from me that was precious. My sense of self. My sense of self-worth. My own ability to perceive the world and make judgements about it. My ability to love myself. My entire sense of sexuality. Everything I think and do is in reference to her because that is how I was trained and that is what I have been doing. And sex is an overpowering and deeply important part of who a person is. I am no longer heterosexual. I am unisexual. I am only attracted to one thing. And that one thing is a fantasy of a person who abused me, who took from me, who raged at me, who belittled me, who gaslighted me, who criticized me, who scared me. My sexuality is now no longer my own. It was taken for me. And I gave it up.

That is what 'hotness' is about. Doesn't seem so 'hot', does it?

Yes.  Then she became uglier but I was still stoned on the girl I fell in love with.  I couldn't let go of that image.  Even now 8 months later I have a hard time giving up on that. 


I appreciate the validation.  It's been really hard for me to deal with this particular issues because I've never had to deal with it before in any relationship.  However, because this girl was the most attractive woman ever to me, I began  to think this formula:  as attractiveness increases, so does maintenance.  So I figured because I was more attracted to her in comparison to previous exes, that other males would be too, and thereby more competition.  That would mean that I'd be dealing with issues I hadn't before.  So, kind of like your guy that pmed you that he'd put up with all that stuff, I figured there'd be some degree of jealousy/alpha male deomstration required.  But, the dignity thing.  I couldn't let go of it no matter how I tried, no matter how "disgustingly jealous" she told me I was.  I just couldn't stand to watch it anymore.


It's even weirder when a girl calls me "dude" -- or "buddy."  Ok, "buddy"'s just always weird to me.  Or fighting words.  Depends on the context. haha



The problem for me would be that you saying ":)UDE she's not hot!" is it wouldn't matter because she is to me.  So, while your validation above helped me, it wouldn't probably if I sent you a pic and you said she's gross.  Plus, women have a different take on other women than men do.


Thanks again.  I've struggled with this topic more than anything.  I came to believe that my disapproval/jealousy was uncalled for and that's why the relationship failed.  That's what she more or less told me.

BTW, this thread will be hot until it gets moved to the Senior Lounge like my "BPD and Culture" post.  :)

My ex-wife was probably average in physical appearance.  I have never, and will never, objectify a woman as "hot"... .  attractive is a much better word and allows for the whole person to be admired.  To me, a person who is good natured is more physically attractive than a nasty person who fits society's definition of "hot".  My ex wife became more attractive to me as she idealized me.  When she began to abuse and devalue me, she became less physically attractive to my eyes.  She once criticized my appearance (I was a fitness model at the time).  In return, I criticized her appearance. She cited this criticism in her divorce testimony.  Just another example of messed up dynamics.

johnnyorganic.  I don't even know what to say to all that you've written here.  Thank you for sharing it.  And no... .  it doesn't seem "hot" at all.  It actually made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.




I know it seems like it now, but this isn't the end of your story.  There IS a life after these horrific relationships.  I am a perfect example of that!  So, don't lose heart or give up! 

turtle

johnnyorganic,

Thanks so much for sharing.  I think that is in many ways similar to what happened to me.  Although mine didn't follow me around like a puppy dog.  She figured out how to get me and a bunch of other guys to be the puppy dogs.

And yes she is a goddess still in my mind.  In 8 months I have made virtually zero attempt to pursue another woman.  She was the one that broke me for good.

I feel the same as stuggli i really dont feel like i can be with another women just dont feel i can go though the whole thing again and to be honest i have no want to really put the time in anymore

Thank you for the bolded part.  I agree wholeheartedly!

As far as her citing that criticism in the divorce testimony... .  



Struggli --- try not to be discouraged by this.  You may feel broken for good right now, but you aren't. You have been through a very bad and destructive experience. Given that fact, 8 months just isn't that long.  If you shatter your leg, you don't expect to run a  marathon before that leg is fully healed, right?

That goes for you to JonnyJon42!  

Yeah, I'm not pressuring myself either.  I've been through enough breakups to know not to try to jump into anything else or be like my ex who is NEVER single to the best of my knowledge.

Plus, I'm working on myself now.

I just looked at pics of her I had hidden away.  My reaction wasn't as intense as I had expected, but I'm probably still not ready to look at them as they keep flashing in my mind's eye now.  She is pretty and has an amazing body, yes.  She even looks very loving in the pictures.

But I also saw one of her holding her phone which reminded me of the "other guys texting her all the time" thing.  Hell, she was probably texting her ex while I was taking pics of her.

I'm 3.5 weeks in and I seem to bounce back and forth between feeling like I may never want another woman, emotionally or physically, (90% of the time) and occasionally wanting one TODAY (10% of the time).  My therapist has stressed to me that I need to hang out in groups and not put myself in 1-on-1 situations with an available woman right now.  I made the mistake, in one of my decent 1 minute periods during the 1st week after the break, of emailing a woman I had met while with my exwBPD who I got a good "vibe" from in a business environment and to whom I was initially attracted.  I asked her if she'd like to get together some time for a drink or food.  She replied that she would.  We exchanged a couple more messages and agreed the following week would be the plan.  That was 2.5 weeks ago.  I haven't contacted her since.  I know I jumped the gun by even asking her out.  On any given day, she'd be at risk for hearing me talk about my exwBPD for, oh, 5-10 hrs or howvwer long she would be willing to listen.  I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that wouldn't be a great time for her.  Until I feel confident I can act more or less like myself (the guy before the BPD mess), I'm not going to expose anyone but close personal friends and family to what I am in an intimate setting.  

Good call. Same here.

So females, what attracted you to your male BPD lol?

It wasn't cuz he was hot.  We know that now.  :)

rj, I wonder if you never got to see the hater side because you kept her at arm's length for so long.  I mean, if you had let her into your world completely like many of us do, she might have had you in more pain than you are in now.  It ended in the clinging phase for you.  For a lot of us, we got to see the hater phase.

I have come to think if I find a woman attractive, she has BPD because she has been socially groomed for it her whole life.  Anyone else think like that?  My T says that's distorted thinking.  He says I can find a woman beautiful who is sane and committed to me, etc.  I think he's delusional.  haha.

Good question, trevjim!

It wasn't his physical characteristics.  Although I did think of him as attractive, in a benign sort of way, before I ever dated him.   

I am tall and I not usually attracted to men that are shorter than I am.  He was shorter than me by one inch and HE was soo bothered by that.

I am not usually attracted to men that are fair skinned and/or blonds.  He is both.

I am not usually attracted to men that are slight in build.  He was.

So... .  the physical part was off base for me.  I spent a lot of time asking myself why I was so attracted to him.  He's been gone for 11 years, so I've had plenty of time to think about it.  lol. 

He seemed genuinely interested in my opinions about things and he seemed to value my opinions. This was something I had not really experienced in my relationships with men.  Up until him, most of the men I had dated were primarily interested in my looks and seemed pretty uninterested in what I thought about anything.

We shared a passion for music (both professional musicians) that I hadn't ever had with another person.  This was a powerful tie for me.  We would write together often.

We shared a common belief system about God and talked about that a lot.  Again, this was not something I'd ever experienced before.It was also a powerful tie.

We also seemed to share a common belief system about family and what that meant to us.

He seemed to geniunely be interested in a simpler way of life and this was very attractive to me too.

Of course, in the end, like all of us here... .  he had simply mirrored me. None of these things were really true -- except the music part. That truly is a passion of his and now... .  after all of this time... .  I see that his passion for music isn't necessarily healthy. His true tastes (not my tastes mirrored back to me) in music are tortured -- and that is a constant whether he's just listening, playing, or writing. 

So... .  the main attraction (even though it wasn't real) was that I felt valued, cherished, protected.  That couldn't have been further from the truth.  The only thing I needed to be protected from was HIM!

turtle

I think you can absolutely find that, but you have to be in a healthy place within yourself first!

LMAO!

There use to be noticeable difference in the way adolescents expressed themselves verbally, as compared to how an adult expressed themselves verbally.

Adolescents looked different than an adult in times gone by. They sounded different. They were not adults.

Adults looked and sounded different... .  They were not adolescents... .  

Today, the goal is arrested adolescence. Verbally, physically, emotionally... .  the goal is to maintain an adolescent style even when well into adult years.

Chic, Babe, Dude, this Is a young way of talking... .  it use to be how teens talked about other

teens. Somewhere in the last 30 years or so, adults adopted this verbal style, and now it's

ubiquitous... .  all ages have this young, brash verbal style.

I went to a wedding in Chicago given by a bunch of 40 to 50 folk, my age. The reception

had the exact same hip hop music playing that I saw at my  18 year old daughters high

school dances. The music, the dance moves... .  all of it mimicked what is currently popular

with a hip 18-20 crowd.  That would have been unheard of 30-50 years ago. Adulthood was

actually coveted, adolescence was not coveted or mimicked by adults.  It's made a complete

flip; eternal adolescence is the desired norm... .  adulthood and an adult style of interaction

doesn't even seem to exist.

As far as obsession with sex... Addiction is addiction is addiction. It could be alcohol, pot,

cocain, heroin, meth... .  or sex... .  the problem isn't the delivery system. The syringe isn't

responsible for the addicts obsession with heroin. The heroin isn't responsible for the a

persons addiction, either.  The addict has a hole, the heroin (or sex, or fantasy, or

idealization) fills the painful empty hole temporarily, but the hole was always there and can

only really be filled (healed) by the addict himself.

What attracted me to my ex with BPD (w/NPD traits) traits... He has no hair, in no model, but takes

care of himself and likes motorcycles and gardening and so do i, He is a thinking

person,interested in life and he is a complex person, he can be so fun and very interesting

to talk with. He still is, and he contributes much to the world. When I was at my

unhealthiest with him, I was tapping into some painful childhood stuff that his style of

relating stirred up in me; at it's worst it was very, very painful... .  he seemed at times almost monsterous to me. But he was touching a wound that was always there, he didn't create it (read 2010 posts). He just a man, he's no saint, and he's no monster, either. He can't save me... .  It's not his job to heal me, save me, or make me feel complete, happy or whole or worthy.  That's MY responsibility... not his.

This is so true.  And, I have to say, I've participated in it.  Being in the fashion industry and the music industry (on a very limited basis now,) seems to perpetuate this idea and now... .  that I'm so much older and wiser (lol) it's VERY unappealing to me.



Yep.  I can relate to ALL of this!

And... .  as much as I would never want to repeat that experience with him, because of my involvement with him, I was forced to deal with some pretty significant childhood stuff too!  So... .  good DOES come out of bad.  Without him -- or someone like him -- I might not have dealt with my own crap!  He was a powerful catalyst.

turtle

Huh. Maybe so... .  Jeff Bridges is 14 years older than I am!  :)

As for the societal thing, it seems to be a sea change, a tidal wave that cannot be stopped.  Our loyalties to our employers (our supply of money) and the pursuit of fun have overridden our other connections to people.

And I agree about the addiction thing.  Most of us were addicted to our exes in one way or another because we didn't leave when they began to hurt us.  Hurting of course happens in every relationship to some degree.  We all hurt each other from time to time.  But our relationships we talk about on here, in some cases, were equivalent to the meth user who lets his teeth start falling out and still wants more.  

I love The Dude and i love jeff bridges in it.

The Dude Is the epitome of eternal adolescence, the good natured, perpetually stoned, under-employed male with no family responsibilities... .  the drifter.

It's neither bad or good... .  but it's a young archetype. It's not an adult archetype.

"hot" women and BPD... .  

I've wondered about a cause and effect. My BPDex told me several times that her problem is that she is too beautiful and that men always want to have sex with her. I do not know at what age this perception started.

So I wondered if it is possible that a very attractive female (for whatever reason... .  physical beauty, charisma, pheromones, availability, etc) is prey to men that use and discard women... .  especially emotionally childish women that are common among BPD. That sort of thing could reinforce a fear of abandonment and self loathing.

These are just the thoughts of my engineering brain trying to build an understanding of a mind that I observed only from the outside looking in. It is not a theory, explanation, or anything that I've read. Just sharing my thoughts.

Waitaminute, I think you are onto something.

Being an attractive female ... .  and a person who pays close attention and studies human behavior, I can give you what I see as a common profile. I can't say I've moved into the arena I'm sharing, but I have felt at times in my life if I wasn't a healthier, more resilient person... .  I could go where I've seen a lot of women go.

What bothers me so much about the way men talk about women is the fact that men seem to be confusing sexuality or a willingness or comfort with extremely provocative sexual behavior with being a real or healthy woman, passionate, alive... .  healthy.

From my study and observations, extreme sexual acting out in women is not a sign of health

in women. The very extreme behaviors that men feel are seductive and succumb to, are

clear warning signs that something is likely very wrong with this woman.

Women ARE sexual and do enjoy sex, we are passionate and we can be adventuresome

sexually.

But a healthy woman is not totally focused on sex and sexuality or being a sex object. Sex

is the spice of life, not the main course. A healthy woman is going to be careful about who

she gets naked with, for obvious physical and mental health reasons. A young woman may

talk a good game but studies show women in their 30s and 40s really come into their own

sexually...  Younger woman may have more partners and be more overtly sexual but report

actually enjoying sex less than more mature women.

A young woman who is strongly playing up the sex card, or is frankly overly invested in

providing her new catch with mind blowing porn star sex, who is sharing tales of childhood

victimization, abuse, rape, molest... .  is announcing about as loud as a person can " I'm a sick

puppy". This woman is NOT healthy. She  has baggage, my friends, baggage too awful for

words alone. Over and over it's this combination of injured sex kitten that the men on this

site fall for and then angrily vilify after she flips out. Sexual acting out by a young woman

should be seen as a neon sign... "I'm messed up and I'm acting out how messed up I am in

the way I was originally wounded, via sex and intimacy with men." She is wounded... .  she is

likely stuck at the age where she was wounded emotionally.

What message do young women, regardless of any frank abuse or trauma get today from

TV, magazines, Internet and pretty much everywhere?

Be hot. Be sexy. Compete for male attention. Only hot women deserve love and sex and

attention and a chance at connection with men. If you don't do what the girls do in pornos,

then move aside cause there's a million girls desperately looking for male love and attention

who WILL provide porn star sex. If you don't compete on this playing field,  don't expect to

ever get or maintain a man's attention. Be hot, beautiful, sexy... .  Put it all out there, or loose

him.

So, take a young immature woman... .  who buys into this. Daddy was never around so she

already feels not good enough and rejected by the one man who was suppose to love her unconditionally (all too common scenario). She has an abandonment wound straight out of

the gate. She buys into the overwhelming message that you must compete and perform for

male love. So she does. She does it all. Learns the moves, learns to be any man's

dream... .  she's crazy hot, she provides porn star sex. Men make the mistake of thinking that providing porn star sex makes her happy and fulfilled.

But that's not what makes her happy... Under it all you still just have a very wounded,

angry, little girl dressed up and acting line what society tells her she must act like to have

male attention. And the bargain is this... .  if I just do this well enough, he will love me

unconditionally... .  and I wont have to perform anymore. I will finally be loved for myself.

But... .  no, it doesn't work out that way, the man (with his own childhood wounds) feels

entitled to have the performance to go on and on, her performance makes him feel better

and fills his emptiness, and he resents that after she "hooks" him, the porn star sex

stops... .  she resents that she has exposed herself and performed like a pro and still hasn't

earned a man's unconditional regard... .  and she still feels self loathing from her original

abandonment and subsequent repeated attempts to be loved.

Two wounded kids dressed up like adults, who know how to f@@@ like grown ups, but neither relating as grown ups or taking care of their own wounds.  Instead it's "fill me, be my fantasy, make it all better for me."

Two wounded kids.

All these men just play out the abandonment drama over and over and over again.

I think that "hot" is the modern way to describe "intense attraction" both emotionally and physically. Just a slang word. That person is "hot" to me, because i'm so in to them, but they can look like 5  on the scale from 1 to 10 to the rest of the world.

Maybeso--

I appreciated your whole post... .  and like you... .  if I had taken a few different turns in my lifetime, I can see where I would have headed down the very unattractive road that you described here.


And this is really at the very heart of why I started this topic.  And I suppose it's why the term "hot" bothers me.  It just feels soo disrespectful in light of what you have written here.

I'm still dissecting all that you wrote.  I hope everyone reads what you wrote here. It's a powerful and very insighful post, maybeso.  Thank you for that.  

maybeso,

that just about explains my whole story with my ex.  I thought it was fun, love, and sexual compatibilty rolled all into one.  But later she came to say she hated sex and that it wasnt a component of a relationship.  I was shocked.  Now my rescuer instinct is all fired up again and i want to send your post to her.  I love her and i thought we were sharing intimacy.  Silly fool.,

This is a great thread. I think of 'hot' as to do with sex. It means more than attractive, it means HOT. Hot means sexually hot however we try and spin it.

You could describe a child as 'pretty' attractive' 'beautiful'. You would never describe a child as hot because it means concerning sex. And I believe it is to do with the way pornography has become so deeply entrenched in our culture's approach to sex, young women and young men are growing up with distorted messages about what is healthy and what is expected. Our young people are becoming damaged, BPD or not.

What message do young women, regardless of any frank abuse or trauma get today from

TV, magazines, Internet and pretty much everywhere?

Be hot. Be sexy. Compete for male attention. Only hot women deserve love and sex and

attention and a chance at connection with men. If you don't do what the girls do in pornos,

then move aside cause there's a million girls desperately looking for male love and attention

who WILL provide porn star sex. If you don't compete on this playing field,  don't expect to

ever get or maintain a man's attention. Be hot, beautiful, sexy... .  Put it all out there, or loose

him.

Absolutely- it's terrifying.

I have posted before about wanting my partner to find me sexually attractive but feeling torn when he does. I'm 46 but as a woman I still find the whole madonna or whore stuff confusing. Because it still exists in society so strongly.

What attracted me to my BPDex was he found me sexually attractive but he found me attractive in all the other ways I needed him to. He liked to listen to me and he liked to look at me AND I found him very beautiful to look at, still do. I could have listened to him talk all night and he fascinated me. The sex wasn't porn star sex. I felt like we were showing each other love, making love. I've not had any of that so strongly with anyone before. We were sharing intimacy and it was always too much for him. He even said that he always had to get up and move afterwards because he felt 'claustrophobic'.

As I understood the disorder- sleeping with him would have felt like sleeping with a child. That saved me. Lately I look at him and see a creep.

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see." That's something John Lennon wrote many years ago. Sometimes people can get it wrong with their eyes wide open, too. 'Hot' is like wearing horny 'Rose Colored Glasses' when you're mostly dealing with what's on the surface of someone. It's used as if the person (seen or seeing) has hit some kind of jackpot. The best heat seems deeper. Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. That doesn't always mean the eyes are working all that well. With BPD involved, appearances can be quite deceiving. Being close with someone can trigger it off, so, if you're not really close enough, how can you be sure about what you're seeing (what the actual 'temperature' is)? Also: Many people end up together due to desperation more than how they looked.

Struggli, She probably thought she was sharing intimacy, too... .  using the only currency she felt she had... .  

I can't stress enough (IMHO) that BOTH men and women are operating with young (foolish if you wish, maybe naive?) assumptions and expectations about what a partner can reasonably provide. I don't see either the man or the woman as plotting evil intent... .  but both are missing the mark.

On another note, that I find confusing... .  isn't it paradoxical to desire the hot, skilled, porn star sex female... .  but then be shocked and surprised to find that a very sexually aggressive  woman with you... Is also very highly provocative with others? Is it realistic to expect a near professional level of sexual prowress to be directed at you and only you alone? Is part of the fantasy include magical thinking that this perfect sexual goddess is a whore only with you? Also, I constantly  read these two conflicting messages from males:

"I didnt know what happiness was UNTIL I had this intense sexual relationship with my porn star rockin hawt ex BPDgf, no one else has ever made me feel THAT good. I never wanted to really be with anyone else, healthy women are boring, I never wanted to really commit to any of my normal past gf's... .  but my crazy rockin hawt BPD ex... .  I'd do anything for her! Then she flirted with other men and dumped me, what a whore. Gosh, what's with all the psycho sluts out there these days?... .  seems  like there's a lot of them... .  seems like there's a lot of borderline women out there... .  gee... .  I wonder why that is?"

Huh?

Maria, you make a very good point. Hot is not just a word for attractive, it is specific to sexual attractiveness... .  You would not call a pretty little girl "hot".

Turtle there is also something to be said for validation and communication within a culture. When I say my BPD girlfriend is hot I do so for two reasons. 1. Because it is a form of validation in making her feel "attractive" though the language changes i.e. sexy, beautiful, gorgeous. 2. For me, in casual context, it can associate other qualities and also be a way to talk about the blinding effect of BPD infatuation.

For instance, man she was so HOT that I didn't see this craziness coming. Meaning something more like, she had all these qualities that made her attractive because obviously being hot in of itself can mean someone is bat___. It's a simple way to bond with others through common language. What guy hasn't been super attracted to a girl and then been blindsided by BPD (obviously almost every guy on this board has lol). But sometimes you don't want to say that. After a long day of fighting and having to over-explain yourself to your partner or expartner you just wanna say, "she was so hot... .  how could she have been crazy?" Much easier than a wall of text describing all the innerworkings of being blinded and dealing with the drama.

BPD women are attractive because they make you feel so wonderful at first.  After all, no one else ever understood them.  Everyone else abused them... .  no one else appreciated them or took good care of them like you do.  And don't you think that since BPD women tend to have terrible self-esteem problems and are fairly self-absorbed, they have the time and will spend the time to look as fabulous as possible?  They want attention and praise and the surest way for a woman to get that is to look great.   Anyone have a BPD girlfriend that was an exercise nut?

That makes me sad.  She read a book about recovering from sexual trauma when we were broken up for about a week.  Then she wanted to be back with me and tell me all about the book.  The book recommended that if a trauma survivor was in a relationship and wanted to make the relationship work, there ought to be a moratorium on sex -- at a minimum 3 months, but a year was ideal.  She asked if we could do the 3 months.  I said yes, although I wasn't enthused about the idea.  But if it would help her and it was what she needed, I told her it was worth it to me.  I wasn't even trying to make any moves, but a couple weeks later she was practically demanding sex.  All so confusing... .  


Can't someone have a partner to which they are attracted and sexual fulfillment as well?  Is that unreasonable?  Or are you saying something else here?


I've been with a few women like that, who were really into me, and only me.  Yet I was either immature or emotionally unavailable.  It does exist and I don't think it has to be within the confines of unhealthiness or fantasy.  So, to me, it was only reasonable that I had found it again with the recent ex, but this time (I believed) I was in the right place to be with somebody, I was open to this woman, and, well, everything seemed to match (possibly just mirroring assuming the BPD trait).


I have grown to feel inadequate/boring if I don't have sex with a woman right away (or at least try), so perhaps it's my currency as well.  Maybe I only attract crazy women without boundaries, but I've found "no sex on the first date = no second date."  Some will wait patiently for a second attempt, but later complain that I didn't try on the first. 

I'd like a "boring" beautiful women that I can grow with intimately.  I'd rather we learn from each other than her be a sex superstar because she had sex with a hundred guys before me.

That seems like an unreasonable fantasy to me at this point.


True.

Before meeting, we had spoken over the phone regarding some work that needed doing - his voice was very seductive but not in a sexual way. His voice was very soft and he really was a wordsmith ... .  sigh  


Foolowing this rather lengthy phone call, I was secretly looking forward to meeting him and was momentarily disappointed by his physical appearance when I answered the door to him. While he was working, I couldn't take my eyes off him - the way he moved, his posture ... .  his silence while he was working  

Oh My God! I have never in my life felt that sort of magnetism, didn't even know it was possible ... .  never will again  :'(

The initial attraction for me was absolutely not based on looks but needless to say, as I spent more time with him and started falling in love with him, he surely became the most amazing, beautiful looking man to walk the earth.

All thumbs on my cell phone browser. Wish there was a delete button.

By the way... .  

A "hot" anything can give you first, second, and third degree burns. There's a lesson there, I think :)

I'm female but nevertheless I've been going on about how attractive my BPDxbf was and that doing without the sex was one of the hardest things.


I was single one day after a ten year relationship, and there was this big attractive guy who made eye contact at the gym. He looked a bit older than I usually go for (that is, he looked my age) and he was a different type from my exes before that. I considered that a good thing because I wanted to break my pattern.

Struggli's and Rjh45's posts made me realize some things. I remember now that before the eye contact I found him handsome but not out of my league at all. When he made eye contact and we talked a bit I began to find him not just handsome but very goodlooking and very attractive. (He's very good at making initial eye contact, once we were in the relationship eye contact became a lot harder for him.) Later I began to think he was out of my league. And now I still find him the most attractive man in the world, I've never seen anyone I find more attractive than him, and I can't see what the fun would be in having sex with anyone else.

That I began to think he was really super handsome and out of my league must have resulted from the mechanism Struggli describes. He was always making eye contact and flirting all over the place, hordes of drooling women everywhere (he has jobs where he has endless fresh supply), and I got those looks from other women as if they were studying me to see what it took to hook a man like that. He especially liked it when celebrities were interested in him.

Over six weeks after breaking up I have that same thing Rjh45 describes (in a milder, much milder form) that I find his fantasy more appealing than the real man. When I see him I don't find him that attractive anymore. I see his BPD interior shining through. My family thinks I'm out of his league, even his mother thinks I'm better looking than he is. And about the not-so-hot pictures Turtle talks about: I always found him a lot less goodlooking in pictures than in reality, in some pictures it even looks as if he must have paid me. I always thought that was because he just isn't so photogenic. Now I read all this it might be the same thing an acquaintance of mine had with her guru. I saw her guru talk on tv once and it was chrystal clear to me he was a con man and a fraud – he had that written all over his face, brrrr. My acquaintance on the other hand was listening to him magnetized, tears in her eyes. She thought he was the most beautiful person she'd ever seen.

Turtle. "Hot" is how you feel inside when you just look at a woman. Now is that shallow? Maybe. But as with most things the explanation is not so simple.  The emotional attachment that you form with your pwBPD puts that hotness on a different level. Like it or not we all have preferences in what we like appearance wise. It may be with a style of clothing, a vehicle. It may be with our partner. The intensity of the attraction when that pwBPD is singing our tune so to speak intensifies the outward attraction. I don't think "hot" is always superficial. It may be sometime but certain vernacular and slang take hold at different times.  I think hot is a "hot" term to use right now. But i know for me my stbex isn't hot.  She has caused a thermonuclear reaction. The outward "hotness" has had to take a back seat to the inner turmoil and nuclear destruction. 

Struggli,

Yes I think it's very possible to have good sexual chemistry with a person without it necessarily involving crazy. I've had that, I think 3 women on this thread are indicating they are attractive, sexual, loving women... .  able to also be loyal, etc. So, yea, it's very possible. But to make it long term, it does take some growing up.

I think the intense magnetism and charm a person with BPD (w/NPD traits) wields is truly formidable... .  And can be intoxicating to both men and women.  I see an intense charming personality today... .  and my spidey senses go up... .  I'm thinking, interesting how intensely charming this person is... .  something to pay attention to in terms of your own heightened awareness.  As 2010 posts, we all have certain wounds that not understood or owned... .  can

make certain hooks especially appealing to us, so we get easily hooked in.  I have taken the

tact of learning more about MY own wounds, and how to nurture those wounds myself... .  the

thought that I've met the perfect person would be my own red flag... .  There are no perfect

people. What is going on inside me that makes this person seem like the answers to my

prayers?

Yes, we all use the term hot... .  or is it "hawt?" today, thanks to Paris Hilton and her home

brewed sex tape. Yet another young, sexy train wreck of a woman.  Sigh.

It's just a fact of life, a part of our current culture.

I usually just ignore it, laugh at it... Sometimes use it myself in gest.

But for what it's worth... .  that way of talking, so glib, brash, young, it bothers me. It usually feels 'off'. It does seem degrading, it seems dumb.  I hear it all the time, on this board, and in the world. I hear women say it just as much as men. I hear people in their 30s, 40s and 50s talk this way. I still believe the language we use says something and means something and makes an impact. We are in a culture where being young is coveted and on-demand intense sexuality is the norm, little or no boundaries, little common courtesy... .  People use this language all the time in front of little kids in public... People throw down f-bombs all the time in public! We are so without any boundaries or awareness these days... .  It's just considered totally normal.  It is what it is. But, to borrow another over used teenage

phrase... .  it sucks.

Struggli --- it IS possible.  I've experienced it first hand!


Yes.  It sucks!  And... .  don't even get me started on the lack of common courtesy or boundaries in our society as a whole.

You've written exactly how I feel.  And... .  when I see the term "hot" splattered all over the media (which bombards us 27/4)  -- and it's used for women that are at best, slutty, I become confused when someone then uses that term about ME.  I don't want to be lumped in with that!


Oh... .  I love this!

I think this is so true!


I get this.  It's like a form of shorthand. lol.

However... .  my shorthand would be... .  "She was so crazy hot, that of course... .  she was batsh!t crazy."

Ah trevjim, because he was hot.  lol

Actually good question, he just seemed to love me so much.

Such a short, concise, simple answer that speaks VOLUMES! 

Cumulus 

Leaf --- what do you mean "it even looks as if he must have paid me?"

I think she means it appeared as if she were "out of his league" according to pictures, that he hired her like an escort or something.

Yup, that's what I meant.

Reading these things from the males here usually makes me raise an eyebrow too.

On the flip side of this is what we women do.  For example... .  I used to have a pattern of being attracted to "bad boys."  I was actually naive enough or arrogant enough or something to believe that they would never be bad to ME.  When in fact, I should have known all along that it was just a matter of time.  Then... .  when the "bad" was eventually directed at me, I was shocked, devastated, hurt and so on.  And really... .  I should have expected it and most certainly should never have been so surprised by it.

It was foolish of me to think that a "bad boy" wouldn't be "bad" to ME.

Okay... .  they will lock this thread soon.  Just in case I'm not around before they do, I want to thank everyone who participated here. 

This was a good learning moment for me!  But just so you know... .  I still don't like the term "hot"  lol.

THANK YOU!

turtle

To me, my wife was/is hot. But that was only a small part of it for me. I thought the hottest thing about her was her intelligence. I was always impressed with what she accomplished in life, both before me and during our time together. Her beauty was possibly seen by other men, but she didn't think so. I saw the total package of physical beauty, intelligence, emotionally giving, (at times) and emotionally loving (when we weren't separated or she painted me black). I was able to recognize all these traits and held on to them even in the worst of times. All bundled together is what I thought was hot. Physically, my wife was beyond skinny. At times, her weight would drop below 100 lbs. For a woman who is 5'7", that's not healthy. She was underdeveloped physically and she was always acutely aware of this and didn't feel comfortable or attractive. But in my eyes, she was the most beautiful woman in the world. Regardless of this, BPD is still an insidious issue when untreated. As we all know.

Is beauty really in the eye of the beholder?  I did a study once where people had to rate other people's physical appearance on a scale of 1-10.  The standard deviation was very low.  In other words, the participants in the study showed a lot of agreement as to who was attractive and who was not.  Note that in this study, only head shots were used so the agreement was based on that rather than on the targets' bodies.  When these target photos were presented to a new group of participants, the good looking targets were judged to be smarter, to have more desirable attitudes, and to have attitudes that matched those of the participants.  This is called "the halo effect".  Physical attractiveness is, objectively speaking, a very trivial trait.  When it comes to performing well in life, things like intelligence and ethics are far more important than physical attractiveness.  But the halo effect makes us treat physically attractive people better than people who are not physically attractive, and can sometimes lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.  For example, teachers in elementary schools have been found to spend more time engaging with more physically attractive students, leading to the appearance of more intelligence.

When we live with someone or become really close to them, we begin to see beyond the trivial trait of physical attractiveness.  What becomes attractive is the extent to which a person shares our values and preferences.

Yes, it is.

Scott44,

I know there's has been quite a few studies (cultural anthropology etc.) that shows patterns of attractions, signs of beauty equal signs of basic health as indicatiors of healthy offspring... .  shiny hair, clear skin, sparkle in the eyes, eyes set a certain distance apart, symetry of facial features... .  we do have a certain blue print probably wired into our genetic code at this point about what is basically healthy and therfore attractive because are gut tells us our offspring will be healthy if we mate with this person.

With time and interaction, we then learn about a person's insides, core values and beliefs etc., and we get to see how they relate to others in close quarters, how they manage difficult emotions etc.

The health/beauty factor can easily mask what might be a person whose insides are very messed up, ... .  a gorgeous person can easily be very emotinally unhealthy or emotinally immature inside. 

But... .  at some level... .  depending on OUR make up, and our own emotional maturity or immaturity... .  the offerings that an emotionally unhealthy person provides may seem like frosting on the cake... .  when it really should be a sign of poor relating ability.   I will say it again... .  a very overtly sexualized woman, who leads with her sexuality, who is sharing way too much intimate details about her life way too soon... .  especially if she is sharing tails of victimization... .  is announcing that she IS not emotinally in a good place.  No matter how sexy or hot she is... .  she is announcing something that ought to be paid attention to seriously... .  and not just becasuse she is presenting as hot.

Turtle you make a good point that women fall into this same trap with the bad boy syndrom... .  he's so sexy and makes ME feel so good... .  he certainly won't be BAD to me! Is that narcisstic to think this person will be difficult with everyone else but we're so special they won't be difficult with US?

Isn't the pull or the hook at some level in these situations just plain old narcissitic supply?  Isn't that what damaged people are offering us?  Isnt that what we, with our own unmet needs and wounds from childhood  responding to, even becomming addicted to over time?   

At some level, isn't it a form of narcisstic supply that BPD women (and men) are so good at providng and then taking away?

Absolutley, my ego probably went from +3 before her, to +20 with her, and then when she left meI went into freefall and id say I hit a -30. N/C and understanding BPD is making me climb back up though

Yes. i DO think it's narcissistic to think they won't be bad to us when they are clearly bad to every one else.  That's why I used the word "arrogant."  I was arrogant to think that for some magic reason, these bad boys would not be bad to ME. Narcissistic supply is exactly what it is and it was a hard pill for me to swallow when I came to terms with it for myself.  That was not a fun day in turtle land.  Although... .  it WAS a huge turning point in turtle land.  Once I saw my bad-boy syndrome for what it really was... .  it was no longer attractive to me.  A life-long destructive pattern was broken and THAT was a great thing.

turtle

MaybeSo makes a great point about narcissistic supply.  That is exactly what pwBPD are offering us.  So much so that when they begin to take it away, we will do anything to get it back.  Personally, I tried at first to exceed the attractiveness of my ex's best friend, the woman who was getting all of "my" narcissistic supply.  When that failed, I got my supply from an emotional affair with someone who told me what I wanted to hear from my wife.

Absolutely what my ex gave me- he fed my narcissistic traits. He triangulated me left right and centre and constantly told me I was best. He was the attention I never got in childhood noticing every bit of me AND he was 'hot', clever and funny (or so I thought). And he's still doing it with me, I never got painted black (at least not so I knew about it). Even as he replaced me he still kept pulling the 'you're the one' card out of his box of tricks. In fact it was 'you're so much the one I can't be with you.'

You're right Turtle, it's a bitter pill but it's one I think many of us have to swallow. Our own narcissism.

Great thread- thank you! x

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I didnt read the whole thread but there seems to be hostility to the word 'hot'. I dont use this term much myself but when I do it is about someone who lights my fire in everyway. Mentally, physically, chemically and spiritually. I think men use the term to describe a sexually attractive woman. I dont see that it always  means slut bimbo porn star. Men can be attracted to more then just physical appearance and still think the woman is hot. Its just a word which has diffent meanings to different people. Cant woman or man be hot and not be low class slut bimbo? Of course, it just depends on what that individual perceives is hot. For some brains are hot, for some its confidence, for some its femininity, for some its assertiveness, for some its submisiveness,, and on and on... .  whats the big deal with the word its self.  Also see comments here about a sexually assertive women are all cheaters whores and sluts? As if there is no such thing as a sexually skilled woman who is commited to one person. Wow... .  as if everyone who is sexy or hot is just a cheap slutty whore who sleeps with anyone. Im detecting a bit of bitterness and labling here in regards to sexuality. Do some of you believe that there are sexually assertive women who have values or do you believe the two cant exist together?

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Please feel free to pick up the conversation in a new thread, keep it collegial folks!