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I have a couple with whom I've had a strange friendship over the last 7 years. Our children are friends and they saw my relationship with my children's father disintegrate. He is, I think, very emotionally immature and she is very socially competitive. Both these things have riled me on and off through our friendship.

Since working on my boundaries I have found it increasingly hard to be around them. He just wants me to listen to him (they are currently splitting up) and she asked him to make sure I knew not to discuss anything he told me about their relationship. He told me twice not to mention something he had said, then said he only told me because I was 'so open with him'. I distinctly felt like he was blaming me for his opening up to me.

Anyway I have realised the whole friendship is horrible, that I don't want it and that i will need to either keep enforcing boundaries or just shut up and take it from them while distancing myself.

I have been having their son at my house for tea once a week. He is a friend of my daughter's and I do it because his parents asked me as a favour while his sister goes to a class. I already have another of my daughter's friends the same evening and could do without an extra one but had said yes as my daughter liked it.

This morning, after waking at 5 and worrying about it for ages, I decided I needed to just stop the tea thing. I don't like the dad coming to pick up the son and 'having a chat' about how he is. I texted both of them, said I was sorry but it was just too much right now, that their son is lovely to have and I hope we can still have him round at other times.

She replies- 'no problem, actually we have swapped his sister's gym class anyway so don't need it. Take care of yourself.'

There have been a couple of other instances over the last couple of weeks where I have had to talk to her about stuff which I think has pissed her off- asked her not to post my kids on her facebook and had to discuss something her soon to be ex partner had done that involved the children. This is all because I've been working on not letting my boundaries get busted.

Anyway, since getting that text back from her I AM SO ANGRY!

Why does it make me so angry? I need our friendship to end and it's positive that it has. But it feels like she just wants to say F*** you in a horrible passive aggressive way that just really, really riles me! It's OK that she does- it's her right and I don't get why I'm so bothered.

Why am I so angry? Can anybody relate?

Maria, you are realizing deep existential truths. When you begin to enforce boundaries, you lose interest with or must end many unbalanced relationships. I know this is a hard, shocking phase. But this is all pert of the process. Overtime, the healthy relationships you have become more satisfying and you will build healthy new ones.

You are remodeling your reality.

Thanks Mary- I think that's probably very true

What I don't understand is why I want to go and punch my ex friends in the face!

I guess I'm angry that I played along in something that I always felt to be unhealthy. And angry that she lives a facebook life of super duper loveliness and denial which is all just nonsense. OOH ANGER!

I've nearly finished my codependency no more book and was just reading how important it is to feel anger. I'm feeling it!

I think the anger comes because even in dismissing you with her "take care" comment, she STILL isn't acknowledging that their behavior has been unacceptable to YOU!  Instead of her saying "Maria1, I'm so sorry... .  I just haven't realized that these things have been hard on you," she turned it around to say "oh, fine. We never wanted what you were offering in the first place and we don't care that it's been hard on you."  Obviously, that's my interpretation.

They were perfectly happy as long as you went along with their agenda, but when you started to communicate that certain things were no longer okay with you... .  they got "testy."

This goes back to the boundary discussion that's going on in that other thread. 

I know it's hard, but try to reframe this.  So, she dismissed you.  Big deal.  It's ultimately what you wanted... .  but along the way, you probably wanted them to own their sh!tty behavior.  They aren't going to.  If they could do that, their behavior wouldn't be so sh!tty in the first place.

So... .  you got rid of a burden.  It might not have gone the way you wanted, but ultimately... .  you did it!  You got rid of them!  Kudos to you! 

Now... .  try not to care what THEY think about that!   Easier said than done!

turtle

Thanks Turtle 

Everything you say is very wise and I know in my head that this is what is needed for me.

I love what you say about them not acting in a sh!tty way if they were capable of owning it in the first place.

Some of this stuff around boundaries makes me see so much disordered behaviour around about me. I'm beginning to feel like I'm drowning in a sea of unhealthiness, trying desperately to float up. Not that I'm healthy, just that I can see it everywhere.

Funnily enough I'm not bothered so much about them caring that I'm out. Somehow that doesn't bother me because I don't particularly care about them much right now. Although she and I have shared some tears along the way she did a lot of pulling and pushing and I never really knew where I was with her. Actually writing that I feel bad for her as she is not in a good place with her separation. But she doesn't want me to be there and I really wasn't looking forward to being in the middle of it all over the coming months with it so it's all a positive outcome really.

Another thing that I'm finding hard is explaining my new boundaries to my children- I don't want the just thinking I'm flaky. I think I need another thread on that.

Setting boundaries DOES make us see disordered behavior everywhere.  Our society it LITTERED with it.  However... .  seeing it... .  recognizing it... .  is a powerful tool for us.  AND... .  our acknowledgment of it helps us to protect ourselves.

The longer we set and maintain our personal boundaries, the more natural it becomes.  Then... .  we start to attract people into our lives who are also on this path.  It is a great thing!  But in the meantime, it feels awkward and way out of balance.


I hate facebook.  I think it is the biggest forum for deception ever. It's not even that people boldly lie there... .  that's not it.  It's just that why would anyone want to be completely honest about their "status" on facebook?  Talk about setting yourself up for judgment and ridicule. The entire concept of facebook, IMO, is set up for deception.

I think Facebook is good for birthday reminders, general information about things, etc. But anyone who lives out their life on facebook is not someone I want in my world.

I had a friend who would post the most ridiculous things on facebook EVERY DAY!  To the world of facebook (over 1,000 of her closest "friends"  , ) she was living the best life ever.  In reality, she was a wreck - spent most of her time in tears.  I would sit with her, listen to her tales of woe and then... .  during the 20 minutes it took me to get home, she had had posted some ridiculous sunshine and roses post about how great her life was.  Um... .  she is no longer my "friend."  She can lean on her other 1,000 closest "friends."  lol.

turtle



 

You are angry at the way she replied. What kind of response would you have preferred?

PF

Maria1,

I mean no offence by this, but it seems to me that it's a simple issue of Lack of Control.  (At least that's what occurred to me, when I tried to put myself in your shoes as the recipient of that text).

You were poised to end the connection on your terms... .  then she swooped in and callously stole the show out from under you.   You lost the chance to do the severing.

I think many of us who end up on these boards after failed relationships with pwBPD struggle with Control issues.   That's often why we stayed so long in bad relationships -- because it took us too long to realize that some circumstances cannot be fixed.

Hi PF and Howpredictable

PF- I think I would have liked her to say thank you for having him and sorry that she hasn't thought to let me know they don't want it any more.

Howpredictable- I get what you're saying but I think it was more that I needed to end the having her son for tea stuff- I was more worried about upsetting her and her son. I spent ages worrying about how to say it and put a lot of effort into saying it as nicely as possible- what hurts is that people don't show the same care toward me.

But that's precisely why the friendship needs to end and has needed to for a long time.

That would have been a reasonable and polite response.

Do you do think on any level that the reason you volunteered to keep her son is because you wanted gratitude and appreciation? Your anger seems to be coming from her unwillingness to give you what you were trying to get. I think I agree w/HowPredictable that this could be a control issue... .  the kind that goes with codependence. I know you are working on that and wonder if you see how your anger and hurt and  disappointment about this situation may be  related to that.

What do you think?

PF

When I began my journey of setting boundaries, I was astounded how I had allowed myself to be surrounded by Takers, nothing but Takers and Chain Yankers.  None of them found my new boundaries acceptable and my life pretty much got a clean sweep.

The message from them was clear.  If we can't use and abuse you, we want nothing to do with you.

I am doing much better without them even though it means being alone more often.  I am slowly making new, healthier friendships.  It takes time for me to learn to trust.

Well I'm really not sure i did it because i wanted gratitude. They asked me- it's not something I would offer to them. I agreed to do it because my daughter likes his company and it seemed fair enough; I like their son and I thought it would be nicer for him to be with us than at the gym class. At the start there was a smaller child care pay off for me as the dad picked up my son from school one day too, so I sort of felt obligated a little as well.

I don't say yes to everybody but I find it very difficult to day no to people I like, particularly children and ill people. I've said no quite a few times when it comes to their daughter, who is much more difficult to have over, for some reason that's much easier for me. The family like to do these regular childcare arrangements but it's not something I've been up for before. I wasn't expecting to have to spend to much time every week with the father, listening to him. It took over the evening and that I didn't feel in control of as I didn't feel able to ask him to leave.

In considering how to deal with this I considered stating a time by which they have to leave; that would have worked but I didn't like the fact that I was quite happy with our Thursday evenings before this arrangement started. I felt like we'd been taken over somehow- my daughter has another child for tea that evening. That I do because her and my daughter enjoy it, and I am trying to leave them at times alone- my daughter is getting ready for high school.

I'm thinking maybe this is about control though but more about me feeling controlled, allowing myself to be controlled and feeling a bit trodden on. Not having control of a situation in my own house. I think her response just rubs that in for me even more, that I've allowed people to do that to me. This couple have annoyed me for years, and I think I've probably annoyed them.

Hi Maria,

Your anger about her - it is likely bottled with a lot of other things you are processing right now. 

As others have said, when you start enforcing boundaries relationships can change.  Be mindful that you are changing too - meaning, the fact you are taking care of yourself with a boundary has you much more sensitive.  For me, anger was when I realized I was not getting validated in the response to setting my boundary.  When we are not used to enforcing boundaries, we are also not used to people perhaps being less than thrilled about them too.

Also, anger is part of grief.  You have a long relationship with this person, it is changing by your own needs - but there is still grief involved when any relationship has a drastic change/end.

Hang in there, keep processing.

Peace,

SB

Hi SB

Yes- I think that's a good point too. I am feeling very vulnerable right now with lots of emotions. I think I want a real friend to recognise that and I'm finding myself with much fewer real friends than I thought. The last real conversation I had with this woman before the Facebook incident I had talked to her about how low I was feeling with the fatigue symptoms and she had talked about her fear around the upcoming separation. She was diagnosed with CFS some years ago but is recovered. It actually felt like we were getting some real closeness in but that has been how it's felt on and off throughout- she pulls right back again. She isn't BPD but she does push/pull.

It's hard seeing these people every day on the school run- endings are easier if you just don't see them again. It reminds me of being a little girl when my friends and I 'weren't speaking' at school. I will speak and acknowledge them though- it just feels weird.

A lot of us here have had friendships change once we continue down our journey.  We realize we want more or equal friendships and perhaps the ones we have changed or had always been unequal. 

Sometimes, time and space help also.  Sounds like she is going through a lot right now and just may not be capable of being the support you were needing or hoping for.


It gets easier with time and practice - this much I know for sure.

Hang in there

Thnks SB- it's good to know it gets easier

Maybe it's an emotionally healthy reaction to being disrespected.  I find anger is a great boundary builder!

Thanks Wimowe- Its motivating me in other areas as well but I don't want to go too far with it. I just woke up feeling angry from dreaming about this woman saying things to me that really p***ed me off. I dreamed though- they didn't really happen but there have been loads of instances over the years she has made me angry and I've swallowed it down.

For some reason I woke up thinking I want to de-friend her on Facebook. I don't do Facebook except for family but i have a couple of friends who have sought me out and she was the first!

I feel like I would be doing it just for revenge though, just to have the last word, so I'm going to think longer before I do anything.  She probably wouldn't notice anyway- she is exactly like Turtle's ex friend with hundreds of virtual friends. It would make me feel better!

Thinking... .  

I didn't "de-friend." I don't dislike the woman I was talking about, but she isn't someone I want in my circle of trust.  I changed the setting so that none of her posts show up in my feed.  When I see her, I am still friendly to her, but the friendship has definitely changed.  I don't make time to see her. I don't text her or call her and when she approaches me to do things, I politely decline.

Maria1 I can relate to this feeling of seeing unhealthy people/situations all around you.  I have been feeling the same, and I of course include myself in that group.  It's difficult to see people dropping like flies out of my life, and yet, I do realize that our r/s wasn't healthy and that it is better for me.  I have had to completely stop two old r/s, two new r/s, and set a strong boundary for another one in the last 6 months     Lord, I hope that means that I am getting better.  It's gotten to the point that I'm expecting every new person I meet to have unhealthy boundaries, and that is part of the reason why I isolate.

Growing pains, as they say.  I think this is a good sign, along with letting yourself feel the anger without guilt.  After all, you don't have to act on it.

Inspiring work, thanks for sharing  

Turtle- thank you- I'm not going to 'de-friend'. It just plays into the whole Facebook nonsense that I don't like. I don't really look at the feed much so I don't mind seeing her there when I do. I do feel a need to get one back at her now though but I'm going to try and be a grown up, in this at least!

I'm sort of ready for her to de-friend me though and that's ok. I think! I mean really it doesn't matter- the funny thing about Facebook is im only 'friends' with one of my real life friends on it. The others, and there aren't many are people who I would never think of as friends in the real world.

What's always triggered me about her is the way she liked to act as if she doesn't care about our friendship, as if it wasn't anything significant for her. But then, in reality I'm not sure whether I ever felt as if the friendship was properly delivering for me. So that leaves me with double standards.

She once had a really weird, embarrassingly obsequious conversation with my kids' dad's partner who works at the school. She and I don't get on too well but I expect everybody else to get on with her- it was strange though, as if my 'friend' wanted to show me how much she likes this woman. It was painful because the woman just looked at her as if she was bonkers and rudely ignored her. People are just strange sometimes.

Heartandwhole- thank you for your support and kind words. I feel we are going through similar things and it really helps that others are doing it at the same time and coming up against the same difficulties- your work inspired me too   

No offense, but Facebook for me, is retarded. I may check mine once a month. I have checked  my exes "open" page once in 6 months. I blocked and defriended he and his family ages ago. It cultivates narcissism and OCD.

I have had to let go of a lot of dysfunctional relationships. The most painful one was with my brother. My only sibling. Maria, you must understand that there are a lot of a--holes in this world. A lot of people so screwed up that they manefest incredibly selfish behavior as a result.

I have lost almost everything and everybody over the last 6 years. I honestly do not have room or energy to enable idiot behavior. Think of Judy Judy, except more polite. Maria, there are real douches out there, and you must protect yourself.

AMEN!

None taken by me on any anti Facebook stuff. Facebook for me symbolises everything that is wrong with our world today. People A living a false life to keep up with other people B living false lives that people A actually think are real! And round and round it goes.

It's utterly dysfunctional and I hate it!

My ex doesn't play the Facebook game actually but he uses it to track people and I use it to check up on how he is every now and again. He knows this though so it's all ridiculous.

I'm learning more and more there are many broken people around.

PS. Who's Judy Judy?  :) I'm UK- sounds like a crazy puppet character who is even crazier than Punch's Judy?

Ah... I mean judge Judy... .  these iPads and the dang auto corrects!

I did wonder! I don't watch Judge Judy but I think I know the premise. I get what you mean though Mary- so much dysfunction in the world generally. It's scary and depressing.

Hi Maria1

Well given what you've said about your CFS issues I think your mind and body are leading you in exactly the right direction!

One approach to tackling CFS that worked for a friend of a friend of mine is almost entirely based around getting in touch with  buried  emotions and expressing your emotional needs in an almost ruthless way - never holding back at all!

The woman who I learnt about it from is at root a very good and solid person - but for various reasons her life had become unbalanced and she needed to do drastic corrective emotional surgery to put it right. She said that during her recovery process she actually scuppered quite a few relationships - because she was so clear and forthright about ALWAYS getting her needs met. Some of the people who she fell out with she then chose to 're-friend' once she was well - on a slightly different basis.

The approach does require quite a disciplined approach to deliberately doing things to support and nurture yourself daily and is helped by meditation - which can assist in identifying what your needs might be.

It makes sense to me!

WWT.  

Yes, whatwasthat, that lady could have been me. I realized I was doing too much damage control and garbage pick up for way too many screwed up people. Yes. Of course they will be pissed because all of the sudden the breast milk of narcissistic feed has been cut off. Poor, Poor Babies!

Yes, I have been called Lucreita MacEvil a number of times. These people throwing tantrums like 3 year olds., and me ending the interaction right there and being honest with it right then.

Poor little babies!

Maria,

I believe it's good you're feeling the anger.  |iiii  I'm going through some of that myself.  I agree with SB, in that it has to do more than with just your current situation.  You are still grieving, as am I.  I feel angry over the loss, but underneath is deep sadness.  It is the sadness that is most difficult for me.  Anger is much easier for me than sadness.  Crying releases a lot of the pain, though.  I am sad that I am letting go of a part of my life that has served me to some extent, but is no longer healthy or necessary.  Like Mary said, you are recreating your life.

Oh, and Facebook... I permanently deleted my account many months ago, and I'm very glad I did.  I do not miss it at all, and I'm regularly reminded why I don't need that in my life.  We have the power to attract good and healthy! 

Hi Whatwasthat  

Thanks for this- I still don't know where i sit with the CFS stuff really. I am exhausted but I have a life with too many parts which can only be partly treated by fixing the emotional stuff (which I do agree with doing and I am going for).

I work full time in a demanding job. No family to help with child care and my kids are young, were young when I split from their father. He is a functioning alcoholic and his partner is a too. She works at my children's school as the person who leads on emotional welfare. She is pretty disordered.

My children have fun with their dad and they need him in their life. It isn't easy for me because I am the one that washes them, makes sure their homework is done and tries to validate their emotions dealing with me (!) and their dad and their (sort of) stepmum. They have fun with him but I do the lion's share of the actual parenting, even though we share care 50/50. It's exhausting to be the one who needs to model healthy and needs to get it right for them. Plus I have my own father who is unable to talk following a stroke. He lives in residential care but he gets no other visitors apart from me- if I don't see him he sits in front of a TV dribbling. I've cut back from visiting but I struggle with the guilt of that. For a codependent to have somebody who depends on me is a bit of a head****.

I don't mean to play the victim here. I am well aware that I'm lucky compared with many. I have a good job, a nice house and I have supportive friends and healthy children. life could be much, much worse. My children's father isn't easy but he isn't BPD.

But I'm exhausted because I have a lot on my plate and a lot to do. I am trying to slowly work some practical solutions but there isn't a lot of wiggle room.

I'm taking time off work and I'm resting, I'm going easy on myself. I'm baking bread. Step by step.

And, funnily enough what you describe as an approach to CFS does seem to be what I'm doing! I have also made efforts to reconnect with a couple of other people I like but don't see. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water and drop everybody! It feels positive.

I'm still knackered mind you!  :)

Hi Phoenix


I seem to have been sad for the longest time recently, months and months where I was close to tears often. I think I find the sadness much easier than the anger, or did anyway. The sadness is still bubbling through here and there but the anger too. It's sadness for a lot of things in my life. Toward BPDex I feel a bit of both. I also worry at times how he might be. He is, of course, on the dating site I'm on and I see him on there daily. I find it kind of reassuring that he's crashing on; it reminds me he has spent zero time NOT looking for someone in all the time since he and I split!

And it reminds me to go slow with myself there too and I like that. 90% of the people are bonkers!

All this takes time. Baking bread is where it's at for me right now- back to basics. And NOT posting pics of my bread on Facebook!

Hi Maria. Your approach sounds like a very good one to me.

Yes - the woman I was talking about had loads of commitments too - heavy duty shift work and kids. And clearly she couldn't just drop all that and suddenly spend her life doing precisely what she wanted in any given moment. But I think the theory  with the approach that she followed is that your body shuts down when it ceases to trust your brain to make the right choices for you - it's noticed that you're not looking after yourself very well and  thinks you will run it into the ground if it lets you - so it goes on strike. And to get over this it needs ongoing positive reassurance that this isn't the case so that it can safely start functioning again. That means that you have to get thoroughly in tune with your own needs - keep checking - Am I thirsty? Do I need to get out of the house to take a walk? Am I tired of talking to this friend and do I need to make my excuses now and leave? - you may have to delay the walk a little because it doesn't fit with your kids schedule or wait for a few minutes for an appropriate gap in the conversation so you can say goodbye to your friend politely - but if you follow through on these simple and small urges - and keep doing it day after day for a couple of months -  it will reassure your whole system that you are prioritising your own needs in a good way.

Also this woman had no actual intent to offend any friends - it just kind of happened as an unavoidable result of her shifting her approach to life. People found it a bit uncomfortable and hard to adapt to. She has made up with just about everyone now I think - but I suspect that's because they have also learnt to accept the 'new' her. And the 'new' her has very clear boundaries.

Anyway it sounds like I'm preaching to the converted here - you seem to be doing all the right stuff   :). I'm just going on about it because a lot of what you were talking about seemed to fit this approach and I was impressed by what this woman had achieved. Also I'm a bit of an evangelist for the idea that there really is no separation between physical, mental, spiritual and emotional health and I'm on a mission to try to promote that idea and to persuade people not to waste time worrying about where one ends and the next begins - because as far as I can see there are no 'joins'!  :)

WWT. 

Whatwasthat- yes, it's very interesting what you say about the body switching off because it just wasn't getting its need met. I was talking to a friend yesterday and she said she thought of CFS as the body just blowing a fuse.

Since having children and going back to work full time I have managed to achieve almost superhuman stuff with my body. I don't sit down, I just keep going. BUT I have always lay down for an afternoon nap whenever I could- it's like I had to. But I was always amazed with what I could achieve if I put my mind to it. I didn't have much choice I felt as if I had to in order to get through the day. However, little changes may make all the difference to me. There's something about taking time for myself that feels alien to me. Unless it's 'good' for me (parental voice in my head).

Sitting down to drink a cup of tea when there's washing to be done is bad. Get all the washing done then sit down and relax.

This week I'm swinging the other way though and doing nothing! Need to find a balance. I'm hoping exercise will fix it and I'm off for a walk.

You're not preaching to the quite converted Whatwasthat and it's very helpful- I'm somewhere in the middle and still not where I think I need to be with it all. Thank you x

I'm pleased that it's helpful. But I am quite capable of getting obsessive about this stuff so will try not to go on about it too much.

Exercise is great. But according to this Reverse Therapy theory (the approach I was talking about) it too should be done incredibly mindfully - and with no goals at all. So along the lines of - OK - do I fancy going swimming today? -  I'll just check in with myself about that - OK - yes that feels good (but also heed the voice that might say 'no! It's too cold! I'd rather go for a short walk and a visit to a cafe instead!' . And then when you're in the pool don't fall into the trap of setting targets - but just enjoy the sensation of floating and the warm water etc - and make sure it feels more like 'play' than 'work'.

Alright - I'll shut up about this now!  :)

WWT.

You mean we are actually suppose to do exactly what we feel like?  How alien would that feel? !

Well, today I thought I should force myself into going for a swim, but the sun was shining so I went for a walk instead. The thing is that achieving some goals is a good thing- I do like to feel achieved. I feel bad if I don't achieve something in the day, even if it's just a little thing.

I'm not a massive over achiever. Career wise I have been quite lucky to get good jobs, I know how to impress, know how to ask questions and do an OK job. People like me, and I deliver OK, but I'm not the one that gets the top targets. I like to change things for the better and the jobs I choose reflect that. Currently I work in social care in a particular area that's quite hard to get into as we don't do the front end stuff. Most people working in my team have  pretty strong codependent traits! In the last 2 years two women apart from me have been involved with PDs. One of these relationships ended with a RO and a prison sentence after she was thrown from a car, the other found out the guy she was planning to set up home with was actually still married.

So, as well as beating myself up about what I do and don't do in my life I have a team of people who all have an opinion on what we all should/ shouldn't do in our lives. Now that's exhausting!

I like the sound of Reverse Therapy. It seems to be instinctively what I'm doing!

I know - who thought that crazy idea up?  :)