BPDFamily.com

Joined up on one of these new-fangled interweb destinations.  Got a message from a single woman - attractive, a bit older than me.  

I would consider it an extreme disservice to my fellow leaving-board members to fail to share the following excerpts from her profile (none identifying in any way, of course):

- "love to be spoiled and enjoy codependent relationships"

- "I'm a intense person"

- "I don't have many friends"

- "I'm always in college for something"

- "I can't think on a level just extremes"

It's almost like a video game where the first few levels are always super easy.  Too bad my last r/s was like trying out level 72 while playing for the first time.

Note - I thought this was more appropriate for this board, rather than the "building healthy relationships" board, because I will not be dating this person.  This is more about how glaring these things can be for us after having gone through the full cycle.

Looks a lot different from the other of the street huh?

How do you think you would have resounded before your relationship if you got this message?

That's hard to say, GM.  There are other things about this particular woman that I would have found unappealing before as well as now - and they are completely unrelated to the quotes I posted.

BUT, if everything else about a person seemed attractive and appealing to me - yet they slipped in the above details - those things wouldn't have held me back in any way.  

The problem is that, when I have heard things like this in the past (and I have), I didn't ascribe any *significance* to them.

I mean, I would have likened it to someone noting whether they're introverted or extroverted, or whether they're grumpy in the morning, etc.

Would a healthy person, unaware of BPD, see these things in themselves as good reason to take a pass on someone?

This might have made me think 'what does that mean?' a little and then I probably would have asked.  I imagine a person who's high maintenance.  I tend to ask a lot of questions anyways like the annoying kid in class.

I usually ask.  But what I've noticed I used to do more than now is when I ask 'what does that mean?' or 'I don't understand can you explain this?' if I got an ambiguous response like "Oh you know I really get into things" or some other non-explanation I would take it at face value.

Not really getting an answer still having a weird sense of things and not realizing it until later, but forging ahead anyways.  Not following my instinct.

Now there's some phrases that people can pop off with that make my ears perk up.  This one is huge for me:  "I love excitement" or "rush" or "I just get really bored".  These tell me a lot and I try to listen better to these things.


Because they seem like innocuous statement like you mentioned?  or for some other reason?

Wow, I've seen profiles with a few red flags but none as explicitly laid out as this one.  Even without knowledge of BPD, I'd steer clear of anyone who straight up said that they "love to be spoiled and enjoy codependent relationships" and that they "can't think on a level just extremes."

WT did your ex ever pop off with anything so totally out in left field?  I know mine did.  I still wonder why much of it went in one ear and out the other.  It didn't stop me.

My ex actually DID tell me deeper into our relationship that she wanted her boyfriend/husband to spoil her and that she's very intense/thinks in extremes, but at least to me, those are major turnoffs to actually hear someone say and it's surprising to see them explicitly mentioned on a dating profile.  You'd think that they'd at least pretty up their wording and say something like "I enjoy being taken care of" and that "I'm a passionate person."  I guess I should be glad that it's easier to weed out at least a few people from the prospective dating pool.

That first year of a relationship is the proving ground.  You get past the honeymoon where everything is all unicorns, rainbows and gumdrops - into the settling in where we are less on our best behavior - then throw in some real life stuff and ... .  see/watch/listen.

I heard some of the left field ones about six months in and from there on out... .  Never stopped me - except for a sideways glance and the squinty eye.

The first year of a relationship really is tentative... .  all kinds of things happen that can give us such a good gauge on what we are getting into.  3 months is nothing, 6 months - a little bit of time... .  

Yeah, I think that the hard part for me was that this was my first real relationship, so I didn't really know what to expect as normal for a relationship.  In my head, I was like, "Well, a lot of girls probably want to be spoiled" and "Yes, she's definitely a passionate person."  I didn't realize what kind of hornets' nest I was walking into.  I'll know much better for next time... .  

Yikes, Gus!  

In all honesty, I never - until I had my own experiences with persons with severe attachment issues - realized that those sorts of phrases WERE so-called "red flags".  *insert very embarrassed icon right here*  

I just thought that they were literal descriptions of how people felt... .  without any other connotations attached to them save for the ones where the persons outright admit to being "codependent", "high maintenance", "very needy" etc.

For someone who writes so much, it's incredibly embarrassing to realize how much I've missed in the past.  *headdesks*

NOWadays, the moment I see words like those, "red flags" start popping up everywhere and I turn around immediately instead of somewhat blindly blundering myself in.

Thing is, though... .  

Now that I understand those "red flags", I seem to see suggestions of those same "red flags" everywhere (though not necessarily in such a telling fashion).

I see baby bibs with, "Little Miss/Mister Perfect" embroidered on them and I can't help but imagine a future Narcissist.

I see drama of the overkill sort pop up in all kinds of forums/online social spaces and I have to wonder if most everyone there who is caught up in the drama - flaming everywhere and everyone, "I'm right, you're wrong!" thinking, having BAWWWWW-fests at imagined slights when none were intended - has PD tendencies.

Anyways, in the case of my former friend, the "very very VERY needy!" trait that had never been disclosed previously (but I realize belatedly could be gleaned from observing their behaviors more closely) made its appearance later on.

As it wasn't a full-on appearance, I kind of did what GM did - squinty-eyed it and went, "hmmm"... .  and though I filed this away in the back of my mind, I also didn't give it the proper "red flag" acknowledgement it should have had.

Yes, because they seem like any other, relatively benign, "describe-yourself" statements.  

My ex, for example, told me pretty early on that she was highly emotional and experienced things in extremes.

Maybe I found it a little unusual, but never perceived a danger in it.  I didn't decide to trust her straight away.  I gradually felt that, over time, she had earned my trust.  She wasn't a flake, I never caught her in a lie, was never overly suspicious of her, when she gave her word on something she made good on it, etc.  She had some issues with anxiety/depression and emotions - my response was to say, so what?  She's passing the same standards I'd apply to anyone else, right?

BPD may be a hidden disorder, but it was especially latent in my ex.  I really believe that if there was wild raging, push/pull - any of the more blatant acting-out behaviors - early in the r/s, I would have exited.  These behaviors made an appearance - oh yes - but not until the very last few months of a 30-month relationship.

Now I can spot even the most subtle of red-flags, and that's great.  But - geez - I don't know how a person could know my ex was bad news unless you had some experience or relevant education to draw on.  I think she works extremely diligently to keep it all in check, and for the most part she's successful - but, not in the sense that she's *resolving* the maladaptive tendencies, but rather repressing/avoiding/masking them.  There were a few, minor instances where she'd inadvertently reveal her "true self" (and only in hindsight is this apparent), and you could see the shame, horror, and fear descend upon her.  At those times, you see, I was still a highly-coveted major object, and she was terrified I'd leave her.  I damn well should have.

It's interesting - much like the quotes from the dating profile, when my ex would drop the red-flags, it was as though she could have been reading out of the DSM.  Very strange that the choice of words is well, nearly clinical.

It seems like there are certain sayings or thoughts that can signal for deeper rooted issues.  Check out this test it the PDBQ-personality disorder beliefs questionnaire:


I could see how statements a person makes could relate to these feelings or thoughts, and seem very much like "left field" statements.

I'd imagine your ex does work very hard to control those "highly emotional and experienced things in extremes" feelings in check.  I'd also guess she's had a problem in other relationships with these things and probably knows a little that it's a problem.

But it's those pesky coping skills... .  or poor coping skills.  As the stressors build up the skills fail/degrade and then you get those behaviors you mentioned.  

The one belief I keep going back to is this one:

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm#2


This one, for me, said a lot because it went beyond the idea of "they love me, like I love them".  It really is a very different way to process things, to feel things, etc.  When I recall the things I would hear come out of his mouth I remember thinking many times... .  Is he joking?  Nope-it wasn't a joke.  He didn't feel anything like I did or other people around us.  

So when I think about someone saying to me now "I like codependent relationships, it's black or white, I'm intense"... .  I'm listening.

I don't think I really listened or gave things enough credence.  And I didn't like making judgments.  But, I'm learning it's okay to be discerning and it isn't judgmental.

In the second year things definitely got weirder.  And I voluntarily overlooked progressively worse things.  Nothing outrageous, but more than was appropriate or within what should have been my boundaries and values.

This was also when the shift into clinger occurred.

I can analogize most of our r/s to a single behavior within it - back-rubs.  She liked to rub my back, at first.  I liked receiving back-rubs.  Yay.  Good deal.

She'd rub my back for so long - like over an hour - to the point where I'd have to tell her that there was no need to do it so much.  She couldn't have cared less whether I reciprocated, but I did (although not for an hour).

The back-rubs got shorter and shorter over time.  She started wanting, then expecting, then demanding that I rub her back.  Then the duration of my back-rubs decreased in proportion to the increase in the length of hers.  Eventually, I never got back-rubs anymore (actually, one time she said I "didn't deserve it".  But she demanded them from me, and even pouted and complained when I'd stop to shake out a cramp, or if my arm fell asleep.

This phenomenon perfectly paralleled the overall r/s cycle.  It was all so gradual, and that's how I lost myself.  My boundaries weren't plowed through overnight; they were encroached upon, inch by inch, over 2.5 years.  Eventually I was essentially her slave - yet I was oblivious to it.

That makes sense.  And I believe she did experience many of those beliefs.


Of course she has had problems - the same ones - in all her relationships.  She also knows, more than just a little, that it's a problem.


Yeah, that's true - she did say, upon breaking up with me, that she "hadn't been happy with me for a year."  Oddly, however, I'd never heard a negative statement escape her mouth until the final couple months, and she was pushing for engagement for several months leading up to the splitting.  So, basically, she wasn't happy with me for our last 12 months together, but was happy enough to get engaged to me within our last 3 months together.

I'm never going to get it, but one thing I do get is that this wouldn't have been a happily-ever-after scenario.

Why is expressing their emotions such a problem for them?  Why is it easier to repress/ignore things than to just talk about it before it grows to such a damaging degree?

The end of my relationship was somewhat similar.  We always had our ups and downs (some more down than others), but she always told me that she loved me when she wasn't flipping out, and we would do things like talk about what our future might be like together.  Even a month before our relationship ended, she begged and begged me to stay when I said that I couldn't put up with her anymore, but when she left me for another guy, she told me that I "should know" that her and I had been having problems for a long time now and that we shouldn't be together.  How convenient that it was time for our relationship to end right when there was someone else to take my place... .   

I did not meet my ex on a dating site, but we had an open relationship for a while, and there were some things he had posted on an old one (he never updated it) that now I see as  red-flag.

He was into role playing, online, tabletop, etc... .  so am I, so are tons of people, and for most of us it's just fun.  And costuming for science fiction cons... .  same thing.  Online gaming... .  ditto.  But I noticed phrases (not exact, I'm drawing from memory) like "I enjoy not being myself for a while" and "it's fun to be someone else". 

In search of an identity. 

The dating site response is so blatant I even suspect it's a college psyche student looking for a person about whom to write a thesis paper.

Could be fun  Could be catastrophic. Could be dangerous.

You probably have more important things in your life than sorting that out.

I'm pretty sure she's for real.

I have no interest in pursuing her; the profile snippets were just too amazing to not share.

Hey positive note here ... .  You are seeing where there might be some real value clashes and potential problems.  And seeing them early before you get too involved or invested.

This is a good thing.   |iiii

I can only see 100%  red-flag in the first and last statement.

"I'm an intense person." Well like Mango said, I'd ask about that. Because I describe myself as intense, and so did my pwBPD.

His "intense" was actually quite positive. He was referring to the clinger stage, and the dramatic romantic gestures that I highly enjoyed.

I generally like intense people. It could also mean he was very intensely emotional... .  not a problem until all his emotions turned into anger.

Balanced intense emotions/moods are quite nice. Intense romance, intense bliss, intense love, intense sensuality... .  now I'm not complaining about those parts!

My meaning of intense is that I'm passionate about things like art, I love to be creative, and I'm romantic... .  I'm not a cheap girl, I'm not an air-head. That's what I mean by it.

red-flag 50%

"I don't have many friends"---there are times in my life where I could say this. I would appreciate the honesty.

It really depends why they don't.

Then again I've known some weirdos with a very bad reason why they don't have friends... .  It's kind of hard to say.

But not a slam-dunk  red-flag either.

"I'm always in college for something" ---What does that even mean? Why is that a red flag? That's like saying "I work a lot." It's pretty ambiguous.

Maybe I'm just a slow learner, but I'd be curious what some of these meant if it were for statement one which sounds rather crazy to actually ENJOY co-dependent relationships.

I guess  red-flag are also reliant on the context of other red flags.

Agreed.


Again, I agree.  I am an intense person myself.  Unlike my ex, however, I'm intensely consistent.



My impression was that this is someone who becomes overwhelmed with enthusiasm for a particular subject or career-path, enrolls in such a program, and later gets bored and drops out.  I've actually known people who have done this repeatedly, bouncing from school to school, dream to dream.  And, yeah, it seems pretty BPD.

But only guessing as to the intended meaning of the statement as used in this woman's profile.

"I'm always in college for something" isn't something that I would normally consider to be an immediate red flag for BPD, but it's more or less exactly what my ex did.  She graduated with a degree in one field, worked it for a few months, decided it wasn't for her, got another job somewhere else doing something completely different but quit her first day.  Then she got a job in another field and pursued a masters in that field but stopped when she was put on academic probation, and was eventually laid off from this job.  She went back to school for another field and got a job in this field after she finished the program and it's what's she's doing now.

Your assessment of what the statement means (especially when taken in context of the first and last statements) is exactly how I interpret the statement as well, that she's someone who easily becomes excited about something and then loses interest just as quickly, which is exactly how my ex was.

I'm not sure about the school thing. I think the notion of slogging it out in a job you hate has no merits. i've done that and it almost killed me. My health went to pieces from the stress.

I actually admire people that have the courage to just quit and move on, and do what they actually want to do.

There are plenty of other jobseekers to take their place.

Along that path you discover what you can and can't do, what you're good at, where your passions are...

I've known some people to do that eventually set up their own successful business.

Sometimes as a teenager or young adult there is so much pressure from family to "suceed" that people can't do this at that time. That's why they might do this throughout adulthood.

The thing with all the BPD traits. Is that they are destructive. I really don't like the idea that some people have of inserting eccentric, artistic traits into the BPD list... .  

Some people with BPD may have other traits just like any human being; but this doesn't mean everybody with these traits have BPD.

In fact my person with BPD is so reliable jobwise, so good at what he does, so strict, so serious, so ridiculously focused at what he does----he has temper problems.

I'd rather a happy, calm, dreamer, than someone like him---inflexible, ridgid, sticking to a job that he really doesn't like and take the anger out on me.

I'd trade that any day.

Points taken.

Re the school thing - I guess it's a question of degree.  At what age/stage of life/number of "new beginnings" should a person have "found themselves?"

My ex did well in school, earned a masters, does well in her job.  My ex said she wanted to be a lawyer but was too afraid to see herself quantified as a percentile ranking to take the Law School Admissions Test.  So she got an MSW instead, which requires no standardized admissions test (granted, her record was good enough to get her into the #1 program in the country, though).  Part of this, I suspect, is the bizarre proclivity of pwBPD to pursue careers in the "helping professions."  But my ex never wanted to do clinical work.  She wanted to do public policy.  So why not an MPP?  Yep - standardized testing.

Anyway, she got a great job as a Senate staffer in DC.  I do wonder how that's going for her now.  Not that she's not talented enough to succeed, but because I played a pretty significant role in helping her secure and perform well in her job.  About 2 hours out of my workday used to be spent responding to her emails asking about law/policy issues.  I'd of course write her up a formal response and she'd look great.  Even her entire linkedin page, for example, is actually my work-product.

I don't take all the credit for her success, though - she's definitely passionate about her issues and her "people skills" (i.e., charm, sex, and manipulation) are superb.  But my guess is she gets bored.  This is a "job" (although a very high-profile one), not a "career," and she refused to ever think about that fact, despite my having raised it repeatedly ("So, what do you think you want to do after this staffer business?".  But when your reality consists only of the here and now . . . .

I definitely don't think that the "school" statement was a BPD red flag in and of itself.  I know plenty of people who change careers and I would never think that they have BPD.  I simply meant that when taken in the context of the other statements made in the dating profile, then there's a strong likelihood that she could be like my ex, who quickly got bored of a lot of things (not just her job), and even she knew that she was very fickle about just about everything.  I'm sure that not all BPDs jump from job to job though.  I don't expect every BPD to act exactly the same way.

Since we are talking about red flag detection in dating site profiles, how do you all think a non's profile would read?  I bet it will be stated in a manner that would stand out the least.  The 'normal' ones would be just overlooked as being 'ordinary'... .  Mr. or Ms. Milquetoast.  Heck who wants these colorless shapeless personalities?   

So a normal profile may read something like this:  5.2" tall.  Weight in line with BMI.  Mostly content, sometimes restless.  Works hard, saving some for retirement, thrifty spender.   Own home and car.  Credit report good.  No past bankruptcies. Good health... .  no problem except occasional sniffles and sneezes. Fitness instructor by hobby.  Stable job with benefits.  Have close friends and relatives.  Ordinary secure childhood.  After all the sibling rivalry and jealousies and squabbling, I actually LOVE my siblings now.  Never married, but one love child.  Whom I adore dearly.  Sometimes desire to adopt another--.  I like to cook.  I think that domesticity is the most romantic state of being... .  and marriage as an institution is an ideal worth aspiring to.  It would indeed be nice to have someone say to me,  "Grow old along with me/The best is yet to be."

I'm not sure that this profile is such a turn on as much as the one that promises total bliss:  "I am an intense person, I live life deeply and passionately, I like change, etc. etc...

What do you all think?  What would be a profile that would actually make you feel comfortable, now that you have been through this experience?

HILARIOUS. Oh boy!

I would also be wary of people that think too highly of themselves. Everything is the BPD fault, they are stable, blah. blah, blah... .  that's a little narcissistic to me!

That's a  red-flag to me... .  people like that. It also shows little tolerance or margin for error.

Get a little emotional, think a little outside of the square and BANG you might have BPD too. Too perfect=too suspicious!

Saving for retirement... .  that is a bit of a turn off. It means they are so future thinking they are old before even being old.

It's fine to save, but to advertise that as something to be proud of... .  It could also imply stinginess?

I guess it's better than my in-debt BPD always struggling with cash.

Any extremes are a turn-off to me. Including extreme on the other end of BPD.

Maybe I'm looking for whatever is between BPD and "normal"


Own home and car= pretty good.

Stable job... .  sigh... .  I don't know... .  sounds like they don't take any risks at all. They are more interested in preseving life, being safe than living and enjoying life.

I guess I do like some BPD qualities, they helped me get out of my risk-adverse little bubble of boringtown and live a little.

"It would indeed be nice to have someone say to me,  "Grow old along with me/The best is yet to be."---that's kinda sweet.

If that's normal I don't want it.

I met my exBPD online. Her profile, for the most part was what draw me to her. Along with her pictures of course.

She vowed to never go back online(dating) because, everyone other than myself, was "crazy." Well, that too was a lie.

Since I've had NC, I noticed she put up a new profile, new user name, etc.

Reading her new profile, if I hadn't met her, I'd be responding to it.  :'(

She appears to be the "perfect" person for me on paper... .  

I read the profile to a friend of mine and he thought it was a bunch of crap.

Kinda hard to get past that part and not fall for it again.

Perfect quote to hold on to!

Thanks

Well, I too met my exBPD online.  We were living in the same city at the time and met in person after just a few messages - so it wasn't an "online relationship," rather just the medium through which we decided to meet for a date.

Anyway, her profile was sparse and generic - as were her emails.  Entirely devoid of personality, humor, etc.  Really, I never would have guessed in a million years we'd have a serious, long-term relationship from those lackluster beginnings.  I was really just seeking casual dates and looking for people to hang out with on the weekends.

But her profile was so short, and read to the effect of (and I know this because I saw her on the same site with the same profile 10 days after I attempted to propose to her - which was what she'd been asking me to do . . .): "I enjoy traveling, meeting new people, and learning new things."  Things she could never do without included: "iPhone (ugh, I know), water, light beer, pedicures, and I may or may not have an affinity for reality TV!" 

Something like that.  I see that this boring, robotic recitation is her playing the everyday "girl next door" card.  Behind the reserved subtlety is a crazy person screaming: "I'm normal, PLEASE believe me!"  And I did.

Hey I had a thought.  I know this isn't fool proof on these dating sites but it does bring up an interesting point.

Candy shop dating sites it's a lot of goodies.

But, Eharmony says they do a test for values and matches you on that.  Yeah people can lie or answer ambigously.  But looking for matched values in "real time" could be a better strategy. 

Good on paper doesn't mean good in life.  Then there are some that don't really look to good on paper either.   

That's a good point.  I've considered opting for a "legitimate" dating site like Match.com or even a professional matchmaking service.  Those things cost money, though (although the Match.com is certainly less expensive than a matchmaker), and, frankly, my ex cleaned me out! 

In any event, while I feel ready to meet new people, I'm also in no rush to launch into a r/s.  I've never craved relationships before my ex, and I don't crave them now.  I just sometimes miss what I did not recognize was an illusion at the time.

I was not unhappy before my BPD r/s - not at all really.  But I was happier with her (pre-devaluation, obviously).  I would like to feel like that on my own, but don't really know how.

Whoop! You just struck oil my friend.  This topic is soo worthy of its own thread.  

Psst... .  you aren't the only one figuring this out and trying to find out how to be without that person.

I wonder how many of us meet our BPD online or had a portion of the relationship online?

At the start of our friendship before dating he lived in another city, was just in mine temporarily when we met.

I did "meet" him online, but I don't mention that part to people as like gus said it was just to establish the first real meetings.

We had a long-distance friendship with webcams, letters, emails... .  lots of contact. We exchanged emails and our life histories, our deep thoughts, lots of things. I had a big crush on him, even though we went out to date other people, in between, I'd always wonder what would happen he he lived in the same city.

When we were both single he started ringing me most nights, I got a gigantic crush on him.

He was there at the end of each day when I needed him---and long-distance is very exciting.

After some more webcaming, he decided to fly over and spend a romantic weekend with me.

It was beautiful... .  very romantic and dramatic and loong pre-lude to our relationship as this friendship lasted for years.

After that romantic weekend in person we couldn't get enough of each other. He flew over many times over the course of a year.

Finally I decided to let him move in with me... .  we decided even though previously we never considered living with another, that if he had to move to be with me, he may as well move once.

So then I had him living with me and happy together for a couple of years.

Then after that time everything went south.

It was the happiests times of my life, and I would do it again, but maybe leave before I found out who he really is and have this heartbreak and degrading treatment I have now.

His latest plug is that I am "useless"

I will never get someone and their ideal online profile stuck in my head ever again. I think I always yearned for that image.