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I think the most important thing in any relationship we have is love. I seem to be all right in that department, capable of giving love and feeling deserving of receiving love. It's when I go to what I feel are the next important things in a relationship that I get lost. Truth, honesty and trust. If someone I know tells me something, I believe it as truth. Even if it is unbelievable and I am aware that it doesn't make sense, I will deny my own observations and believe the lie I am told. It is the same with honesty. I know there are dishonest people, but I can't believe anyone I know personally, could be dishonest. Even when faced with facts, I have a really difficult time believing the dishonesty. I choose to turn my head the other way so I can't see the lies or I will "explain" the behaviour. So I end up trusting everyone. Misplaced trust because I choose to believe what someone else tells me about themselves rather then believing my own feelings and observations.

I don't know why this is, I am aware of it now, but still find myself too trusting.

I got started thinking about this when one neighbour said about another neighbour, she is not a trustworthy person. He wasn't bring critical or judgemental, he was just stating a fact, a fact that I can not be comfortable making. The situation that precipitated it went like this. I went on vacation last year and untrustworthy neighbour took in my mail and watered my plants that I had lined up on the kitchen counter. When I got home she told me how much she liked the vase in my bedroom. I went away again at Christmas and the other neighbour came over to do the same for me and I recounted the story to him. This is when he responded, she is not trustworthy. So, why couldn't I think that way? When I looked inside myself there was a feeling of violation, someone going into my bedroom, when I wasn't there and without need to, yet I buried it under a feeling of mild amusement, snoopy neighbour.

How do you learn to trust appropriately without developing a judgmental character.

Obviously I am not in law enforcement, would make a sorry cop :)

Hmm... .  for me, love cannot be present if I don't first have truth, honesty and trust.

turtle

I had learned to accept her lies and half truths as her attempt to maintain peace. I can't say I saw through all her deception but she was a terrible liar. I think she even wanted to reveal the truth even while lying. She was just a terrible liar. What I had the most trouble with was her hiding things. The biggest nail in the coffin of our rs was pounded in the day she said defiantly "I will hide *everything*". That's not a relationship.

Hi turtle, what if you don't recognize the lies, dishonesty and untrustworthiness. If you are being deceived can you not still love what you believe is the real person. So when things end there is not only the grief of a failed relationship but grief for someone who died who actually never lived. How do we teach ourselves to recognize deception. Why are some people, like myself, so inadequate at recognizing lies and deception and so willing to believe.

Waitaminute, isn't hiding things just another way to lie. I envy you that you were able to recognize what you saw.

Cumulus, I know exactly what you are talking about. I know that perception. This often is FOO issues. For me, it was laziness. It's easy to have the peace, but you pay for it by seething resentment and your life being screwed up.

Essentially, for me this was boundary building. When a person tries to gaslight and or lie, I call him on his ~, if this person is close. Be prepared to be the bad guy and lose some really unhealthy relationships over this, but at least life will make a little more sense.

Mary, it's easy to have the peace. That is a lot of it. And it takes courage to call someone out. Could be why I avoid looking too closely, I just don't have the courage to stand up and say that's a lie so I pretend not to see it and I pretend the peace is still in place. Hmmm

People will screw up your life, if you do not do this. Call out BS, lovingly. If you enable lying, you will have liars in your life. If you enable shady behavior, then shady people will act shady.

I will warn you of narcissistic rage, but these people are jackasses anyway. You don't want douche narcissist bahvior.

It is real bizarre doing this. My ex went nuts and my brother cuts me out. But otherwise, you will have real scumbags to contend with.

Cumulus, if you're anything like I was, it wasn't that I didn't see the lies though sometimes it was. When i saw them and wanted to keep the peace it was because of my fear of loss. Loss of my r/s, loss of a friendship... I wanted to believe what was being said was true so that it wouldn't hurt. The times I didn't see it was when I had blinders on, lacking my own awareness, many people walk through life like this. Once I started becoming aware and focusing on my recovery, getting to know myself, it became easier to trust my gut feelings and quite frankly to even notice I had gut feelings.

I handle people who lie to me with humor now. I will laugh and say something along the lines of "get outa town, I don't believe you!" And if they get more serious I stand my ground with a smile "no seriously, I don't believe you". It is not my responsibility to bring out the truth in them, it does show me who they are and where to "place" this person in my life. Usually, at arms length. Knowing and accepting I will not trust them to become or remain a close friend.

I have had one painful lesson with a close friend on this topic and two other instances where this has turned around a year ago. The latter came from them being honest with me, trust started to build. I've decided I don't have to dislike these people, I can be nice as long as I can maintain my boundaries I still have them in my life, though at a distance.  

Couldn't have said it better suzn. Y

I believe it is just as others have said... .  we don't WANT to see it, or we're afraid of what we'll lose if we acknowlege the lies.

I USED to be someone who believed others easily, and it cost me... .  dearly.  This is no longer who I am.  If anything, I have swung to the other side of pendulum.  I am hypervigilant about watching what people DO... .  and no longer put much weight on what people say. And... .  if the actions don't match the words, I react accordingly. 

turtle

Yes, turtle says a gem there. I would listen to it. lots of dodgy people out there.

Cumulus,

Hiding things is just another form of deception. I wouldn't call hiding a lie but I think it's a semantics issue. Deception for sure.

I had little tolerance for hiding. I had mentioned in another thread how my BPDex came between me and my wife. From day one I told my wife that I had met this woman online. I told my wife when I sent this woman money. I told my wife that I felt a connection with this woman. I know the price of truth. But somehow the penalty of telling the truth is preferred over living a lie or a double life.

But let me emphasize this: It would be better to live a life where there is no need to weigh the price of truth... .  where truth is an open door to peace and not chaos. I think such a life is more likely if we can discern and practice "doing the right thing".

For my BPDex, truth was but one option in her survival kit. And actually, as I watched our rs play out I knew that it was not impossible that she would have to one day rely on that survival kit again. So I never tried to change her. For food, clothing, shelter, medicine, warmth... .  maybe she will have to lie someday. Truth feeds the soul but not the belly. I simply hope that truth becomes the preferred and effective tool in her bag.

My ex was in total denial that he became violent, even if there were witnesses. Just did not want to accept that he had a very damaged side. At the end, he was lying about the most ludicrous things. Things that if taken to full blown court, he would have perjured himself, and got caught immediately. Totally broken from reality.

I got so damned sick of liars after that. I mean, like everybody else, I swept crap under the rug. But after this, I get real testy, and will hold feet to the fire.