BPDFamily.com

Hi All, I usually post over on some of the other boards, but knew that sooner or later, I'd find myself over here on this one. And here I am.

I find myself in a pickle and could use some advice. Here's the background:

Husband is diagnosed bipolar 1 with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), ASPD, and NPD. His original diagnosis in 1987 was paranoid schizophrenic with manic depression, but he doesn't have hallucinations, so dx was recently changed. We've been "married" (if you want to call it that--there's a piece of paper saying it's true) for 16 1/2 years (together for 1 1/2 years prior to marriage). We do not have children (THANK GOD).

I outright owned a piece of property before I met him, and he moved onto my property. Around the time we got married, I started a business (international wholesale mail order). Around this time, husband had his first big manic phase since I'd met him and it was a doozy. He ended up in jail for a felony menacing charge (being bipolar and ASPD though, he still to this day believes he was being picked on--screw that stupid postman he threatened with a knife for no sane reason!). He lost his job, and started working with me about 8 months after the business was formed (sole proprietorship, I'm listed as the proprietor, I'm the only signator on the business account, but he has a debit card--we have seperate personal accounts from the business and each other). Husband is doing a really good natural treatment that makes him a productive working member of society, but has not restored his abilty to have friendships/intimate relationships (I'm being polite here). Husband has become something of a partner, although he only actually functions as an employee.

For some years, I have been trying to disentangle, but he's like a pit bull that has it's teeth latched onto my pant leg. There's all the blow ups you'd expect from someone with a major mental illness and a couple personality disorders (including the projection, rages, etc, etc, etc). I've tried to get him to leave many times, and in anger, he agrees--it's even his own idea usually--but then he goes on to pretend that never happened. And won't leave. No matter how many times he says he wants to leave, he won't do it. Finally, this past December, in desperation, I moved out, into a rental about a mile and a half away. Psychologically and emotionally, this was an excellent choice. legally--I don't know. There is absolutely no going back now.

We've filed for divorce quite a few times, and then called it off because there were too many entanglements that weren't resolved. My therapist (who is also husbands therapist) has recommended untangling the entanglements first, then filing for divorce. That is what I am trying to do now, with no success. Because the goals I had 18 years ago on the unimproved property I bought are no longer realistic goals, I have offered to sell husband the property (or better yet, trade it to him for his share in the business--over the years, it went from a cottage industry to an almost quarter million dollar business last year). He is expecting an inheritance from his fathers death, next month. My preference is to trade him the property for the business--something he agreed to, until he saw that I actually meant it. Now he just wants to buy the property and remain business partners. I do not want to be business partners, spouses, or friends (we never were friends--that was the problem to begin with). The few times we are able to actually discuss any of these issues (without him trying to avoid the discussion by becoming verbally abusive), he agrees, but will not follow through. I wanted to go to the DMV last week and take my name off the truck he's using and have him take his name off my jeep. But he became "too busy". And, I suspect, will remain so.

I can't just forge his name on papers obviously. But I can't get his co-operation. Does anyone have any advice for how I can move this along?

doubleAries

Hmm.  What he's done is to discourage you from actually doing something, for years.  Worst case scenario, he can make it an ordeal, but he can't stop you if you're determined to move forward.  I presume you've sought legal advice on your options to disentangle from someone who will delay, obstruct and sabotage?  Sounds like you need to take the emotional impact out of it and just treat it, hard as it will be, as a business dissolution.  He can obstruct and delay but he can't block.

We've often concluded that the delays never end until the obstructor runs out of delay tactics.  As we say here, a divorce often doesn't reach settlement until we're on the court house steps walking in the door for Trial Day and no more delays possible.  (That actually happened to me - except my court house didn't have steps.)

This may not be much much help, just moral support, but there's only one direction to move forward.  We're here for you.

this might be a bit of a shady, underhanded tactic, but could you agree to remain business partners for now and get the divorce and other disentangling done now?  and then disentangle business wise later?

and is he really a business partner?  if the business is all in your name, then could you just fire him?  if the property is all yours, could you evict him?  or does the fact he's married mean what's yours is his regardless of what's on the paperwork.  that's how it works here in my state, but i don't think it's that way everywhere.

if he won't cooperate and you want to get away from him, then you're gonna have to do it without his cooperation.  unfortunately, most people on this board seem to experience this.  perhaps talking to a few lawyers that specialize in more than just divorce, such as business law, could help?  and maybe talking to the DMV to see if there's a way to go ahead and force getting names off each other's vehicles?  could you sell yours and get your own in your name only?

just trying to brainstorm ideas to get you moving.

Keep in mind that you should not feel guilted or obligated (F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt) to share information with him.  If the marriage were healthy, functional and had a future, then it would be a different matter of course.  But it's dysfunctional and the marriage's future is dim at best, so it's entirely appropriate to keep some things, especially strategies, confidential and private.  You know you can treat him fairly, but sadly you can't expect reciprocation from him.

Take the cars as an example.  (I'm assuming here that you're not in any financial hardship right now.)  You don't tell him, "Since you won't agree to take your name off my title and mine off yours, then I'm going to sell the car."  No, avoid triggering further resistance.  Simply trade it in for another, possibly setting the stage in the days/weeks beforehand by making comments about its deficiencies.  Since he's on the title, he might refuse to sign off on it, but maybe not.  Or maybe you changing cars might help you work out a deal to retitle his auto too, but without triggering him.  Just make sure he stays off the title of the new car.

During a divorce the court will force a separation of vehicular ownership along with everything else.

Before you do all this, do as Waddams wrote, get confidential expert legal opinions.  You have significant assets and you shouldn't 'guess' and 'hope' how it will turn out.  Seek expert legal guidance, plan your overall strategies.

Thanks bunches!

I live in Colorado--even though it seems outrageous to me, the legal system sees my property as half his because we are married--no matter that he never paid a single dime towards it and his name isn't on the deed. All assets are considered equally owned, whether they existed before the marriage or not. This holds true for the business as well, especially since he has a debit card for the account. I don't believe husband knows this to be legally the case, but he senses it on some emotional level, that he can tie himself to me that way. In the past, when he's become manic, I have tried to get him to give me the debit card so he doesn't go berzerk and spend all the money, but he won't give it to me (if I just sneaked into his wallet and took it, not only would he know and become enraged, he could just get another one in a couple of days). Once, years ago, when he was in particularly bad shape, I went to the bank and asked them to cut off his access to his card--explained to them what was going. They said they couldn't do that and neither could I.

I have not yet spoken to an attorney. I need to find one that has some understanding of mental illness, and doesn't just want to barge ahead with the usual slew of threatening paperwork. THAT, I am positive, will escalate things to a very ugly scenario (he is, after all, also diagnosed anti-social personality disorder. As a side note: NOTE TO SELF: wth was I thinking? Don't marry crazy people! But that's for other boards... .  )

Husbands mental illness has made him extremely rigid and opposed to any changes (our T says he has never met anyone before so rigid). He has a 6th sense for what's up. If I started talking about selling my jeep, his antennae would be up in an instant. He would either argue endlessly about what an impractical thing that would be to do, or agree and just "not get around to" signing off on the title. Note that he recently bought a new vehicle that is solely in his name though (even though I'm paying half the insurance  )

I'm in something of a bind in that I signed a 6 month lease on my rental which is up at the end of May. If I am not going to renew, the landlord will want to start advertising it for rent next month. I'm looking for another home (have excellent credit and bank has pre-approved me for an FHA loan). One option I am considering is trying make these giant changes as slowly as possible so husband doesn't completely tweak out on me. To that end, perhaps I could just allow him to purchase my property from me, and remain business partners for the time being (and yes, FOG does play a role here, even though I don't want it to--husbands identity has become the business. To him, this is what proves he is a productive member of society, and frankly, he is not going to do well on his own without me managing his mental illness for him).

I have to finish my books/taxes for last year this week, and get the tax forms to the bank before I get the actual pre-approval. I have to find a house (found a fabulous deal last week that sold just as I was learning about it, dang it!), and I have to work 6 days a week (we just finished a trade show and are swamped with outgoing orders). I'm pretty stressed out.

I guess in some ways, I'm not quite to the legal parts yet, just at the beginning of it, but am overwhelmed somewhat and am seeking brainstorming ideas from others who've done this already. I do have fears about physical violence, and yes, will call the police immediately if it happens. But would prefer to at least try to avoid all of that, if there are ways for me to not remain paralyzed, but also not be the cause of escalating things too much (like snotty lawyer letters or pushing too many buttons at once).

Colorado has a divorce option that is rather attractive--if there are no children and no disagreements about division of assets, a divorce can be finalized in 3 months by a magistrate without even going to court. This is what I'm shooting for. Trying, anyway. I don't want to cheat husband in any way--he has worked hard over the years, as best he could, to make the business a success (too bad he couldn't work that hard toward making the marriage a success!). But I would like to avoid a knock down drag out over all this. It doesn't seem like he really wants a knock down drag out either. he just wants things to remain the same so he feels the slight illusion of security. But that status quo is unacceptable--he's not BPD, but there are a lot of similarities (bipolar, ASPD, NPD).

What he wants, plainly, is to attach himself to my stability and push the person who provided it (me) out of the picture. Not physically--he understands somewhere deep inside himself that that would be security suicide. But, similar to BPD's, he wants me to be an accomodating shell of a human who will provide stability and security, and accept the blame for everything from his feelings to his shortcomings mentally. He wants me to take care of him while he endlessly screams at me that he hates my guts. Been there, done that, bought that t-shirt.

I'm not sure what to do first. I talked to him on the phone this morning and asked him to get the titles for the vehicles out so we can change the names on them tomorrow. He said he would, and MAYBE he actually will. He might also get "too busy" with "more practical important things" and "forget" (this was the 4th reminder--reminders are considered "rash, impulsive, drama queen behavior" on my part "in order to be the center of attention"--you gotta love projection, eh?  )

But even if this actually happens, I'm not sure what to do next. I have to find a house, but I have to get these taxes done, but I have to get my orders out, but my lease is almost up---AAARRRGGGHHH!

My T thinks the best way is to do the disentangling first, then file for divorce. I agree, but am not entirely sure how to proceed. Maybe I'm just trapped in my desire to have an amicable, drama free, rubber stamped divorce, and that may not actually happen. I worry that if I really start pushing things, especially with a lawyer, he will become destructive. Not just violent toward me, but tearing stuff up that belongs to the business (the business is still located on my property, where I no longer live and he does--I have to find a suitable home that has a workshop building I can move the business to!)

Geez, I feel like my head is going to explode. Thanks for at least listening. And I appreciate the support and advice. And open to more!

Get some confidential conversations with lawyers now.  You may even need referrals to other more specialized lawyers.  Otherwise you may spend time and energy doing what you think is good preparation and goundwork and then find out you had it all a$$ backwards and wasted months doing the wrong things.  The legal issues are nothing like everyday common sense, they are the accumulation (=baggage) of decades and centuries of evolving laws, policies, procedures, case law, etc.

For example, what if you buy a house and then go to a lawyer and find out that buying a house was exactly the #1 thing to avoid?  See what I mean?  It might be great or it might make things even more complicated then they already are.  Get more than one legal opinion/consultation.  Find a lawyer who knows what to do and that you're comfortable working with for the next year or probably longer.

Sorry, better to find out in advance where you stand and what to do, anything else will just add to your delay, pain and financial expenses.

That's excellent advice. And I'm going to take it. I guess i'll just renew my rental lease for now. It does occur to me that if I buy another house, he could be entitled to that too. AND if I commit myself to a large loan for a house, and then we start battling over the business, money could become very tight indeed.

Geez, this is what has paralyzed me for so long and made me stay in this horrible "relationship" for so long. I feel like there's a leech on my neck and I can't get it off without tearing myself to shreds. This is an incredibly important lesson about getting serious about dealing with codependency.

I didn't say to continue renting.  You have a few weeks for consultations to get an idea of which options are best for you.  But if you do rent, try to make it for a short term - to keep your options open and let you keep flexibility in the near future.

Another reason not to sign a long lease... .  if you do file for divorce, then you wouldn't want to continue living with him during the divorce, right?  If he's unlikely to leave and let you stay, then you can let the lease lapse, find a new apartment and let him find his own place to live.  Yes, doing this would trigger him for sure, but you'll have to cross that bridge at some point anyway, can't put it off forever.

See how everything hinges on getting some consultations, getting expert legal advice on which options are better than others, which priorities to have on upcoming decisions such as housing, etc?

Oh, another thought... .  He may try to get you to promise rights, privileges, ownership, partnership, etc that goes far beyond what the law and courts would require otherwise.  Don't make anything legally binding until you get legal advice.  Your case is already complicated, don't give up any leverage you might have.  Always feel free to delay demands with "I'll have to think about it" or whatever.

IMHO

Thanks, ForeverDad--

Actually, we aren't living together now. That's why I'm renting. He's living on my bought and paid for property, while I'm down the road a piece, renting.

My landlord already cut me some slack when I first moved in, and let me do a 6 month lease instead of a 1 year lease. I don't think he'll let me do month to month after May.

My situation isn't just complicated. It's so insanely complicated that every day, at least once, I consider just up and "running away from home". Then reality shatters my tenative little fantasy, when I remind myself that everything I'd be leaving behind is leaglly in my name. Sigh... .  

I would definitely consult an attorney.

It's my understanding that this statement may not be accurate. You stated that you purchased the home before you became [common-law] married.

Has your house increased in value?

Colorado is an equitable distribution state. Anything the spouses had before marriage will usually not be included in Colorado divorce assets or Colorado divorce property. The only property that comes into the court's distribution is that legally classified as property of the marriage subject to Colorado Revised Statute §14-10-113.

www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl2002a/sl_270.pdf

Colorado Revised Statute §14-10-113:

(4) SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF SUBSECTION (7) OF THIS SECTION, an asset of

a spouse acquired prior to the marriage or in accordance with subsection (2) (a) or

(2) (b) of this section shall be considered as marital property, for purposes of this

article only, to the extent that its present value exceeds its value at the time of the

marriage or at the time of acquisition if acquired after the marriage.

The way I read that is that he is only entitled to the division of the increased value of the home. i.e. say you bought it for $200,000 and it's now worth $300,000. He would only be vested in $100,000 of the house (not half) and that would be where "equitable division" would be determined.

My own house has depreciated in value since I bought it ten years ago, so it was not considered a "marital asset" or even subject to "property division", when I (more recently) inquired about this subject matter.  

I'm certainly not an attorney and may be full of it, but when I faced this in my own life, this is is how it was presented to me. :)

Hi doubleAries,

I just had to comment on how I can't believe how very similar your "H" seems to my stbxH!

I am so sorry for your entangled situation, and know how it is to get caught up into this kind of web/trap. 

Keep doing the legal legwork/consultations to get the best advice and keep moving forward, forward, forward.  It won't be easy, but you CAN do it!

nwtg

Huh. An attorney last year told me all assets are shared assets.

We aren't common-law married. We are legally through the state married. My property taxes have gone up, so I assume it has gone up in value.

This is so frustrating--look here is the situation, which is not entirely legal maters, so I apoligize if I'm using the legal board as a "whining" board. BUT... .  

I bought this property 23 years ago, completely unimproved and with no electric or water to the property (though it does have a springs that I have water rights to). It was $15,000 for 40.5 acres. I ended up splitting it with 2 other people, and we eventually subdivided it legally, with seperate deeds, 13 1/2 acres each. My driveway is a legal easement across one of the adjoining properties. The utility poles are over a mile away, and utility company says I have to pay to bring poles to the property (the quote I got 23 years ago was $138,000--just to bring the poles, and I was pretty dirt poor--ain't happening, solar power it is). My intent was to build my own home--pull myself up by the boot straps as it were. Go NC with Sadistic witch BPD mother, spend some time alone in the great outdoors building something for myself as I sorted out my life, shovel in hand. Indeed, I dug a foundation for a house by hand with a shovel--because that's what I could afford. Worked temporary jobs here and there to make a little pile of money to feed myself and pay for the land while I worked on building. It was an owner finance property, with no principle payment penalties, and i paid it off in 3 years, before I even got to the balloon payment.

Fast forward 5 years--met stbx at a job site. I didn't have a car at the time, he did. We carpooled. He didn't have a place to live, and was expecting to go to another bigger job in a few months in Aspen. I told him he could stay with me in my little camping trailer until he went to Aspen. He quit the job (in retrospect, I understand now that was because he knew he was headed for a whopper of a manic phase, but at the time, he had other "reasons" and there we were. In a 16 foot camp trailer. I had not gotten as far along as I am now in my "self improvement" reality. A long ways from it in fact. Grew up getting the stuffing beat out of me and told what a greedy filthy selfish pig I was, so the poor treatment I received from stbx looked "normal" and healthy by comparison. Stbx just kept hanging around. At the time, I thought it was because he liked me and was comfortable there. I now know it was/is because he is extremely rigid and intolerant of change or anything even vaguely resembling upheavel (understandably--he's bipolar and desperately seeking stability, although he's substituting fixed rigidilty for stability). He got another job and I decided to start a business, rather than a constant cycle of temp jobs. He didn't last too long at the new job--quit when he was struggling to hide the paranoid delusions. That's when we got married. 2 weeks later, he had a psychotic break. This was my introduction to severe mental illness. It wasn't pretty.

After I got him into treatment, and he began to stabilize, he was filled with angry shame and frantic (work, to him, proves "functionability". I did not know this was part and parcel of the mental illness. He wasn't delusional anymore, so he wasn't mentally ill anymore, in my view. I DID see this as something I needed to "fix". Trying to placate angry people is ingrained in my soul since birth. I asked him to work with me, and if he didn't like it he could find another job. My plan was to have a little cottage industry business on the side to pay my way through building the house, then after the house was built, build up the business. When asked what his goals or ambitions were, he always said/says "I don't know". Stbx was (can you believe it?) insecure about everything, and told me he couldn't live like this, needed to make more money to feel secure. I was certainly emotionally unhealthy myself, but even I knew money wasn't going to solve insecurity. But nonetheless, I went along, building up the business instead of the house. First, stbx said he needed $50,000 per year to become secure. When we reached that number, guess what? Right. Still not secure. He needed to make even more. Rinse, cycle repeat. For 18 years.

There is still no house on the property. We have fought tooth and nail for years about this. From his perspective, these fights are simply me personally attacking him, trying to make him feel bad about himself. And thusly, he lashes back. (A few days ago, he told me "I had no idea you were so unhappy about the situation here with the house"   I reminded him of all the intense fights we have had over every single improvement to the property, no matter how big or small [they've all been small, because I believed small wouldn't be so frightening for him--WRONG]. so did he "forget" this? No--his brain doesn't make the connection. After all, all those things I complained about, about the house--or lack thereof--weren't complaints about houses--they were personal attacks meant to make him feel bad about himself).

He's bipolar 1 (mixed) with psychotic features, ASPD, and NPD. I'm a codependent adult survivor of severe childhood abuse. I'm interested in self improvement, he is not ("boring psychological crap". I am desperate for someone to love me and value me, he's moody, distant, withdrawn, and angry. Disaster waitng to happen.

For years, he has complained bitterly about our life (even as he is willing to do nothing--and I mean NOTHING--to improve it. Improve means change. Change means instability) and when I have said "then why are you still here?" he has always answered the same answer--"because I'm afraid to leave and start over". Not "because I love you and want to work things out"--I don't fit anywhere into the equation. In fact, it's clear I have become an obstacle that enrages him (he told me several months ago that he knew I made the trailer too hot on purpose--in order to dominate him). Yet he is dependent on me. Something he cannot accept or believe, because he's able to work, and if he can work, then he must be independent and functional. He's a workaholic, but incapable of interpersonal interaction. I have been trying to get him to leave for the past 10 years. he blows up and says that's exactly what he's going to do. Then he pretends that never happened, and continues on with what I call "the regular routine".

Still no house. The camp trailer is now 23 years older (never intended it to be a "home", just a place to stay in while I built a house). Every single improvement to the property (and there aren't many--it's pretty hill-billy looking!) has come at a huge emotional price. The blow ups are staggering. I fell, for many years, into the "it's easier to not have friends / it's easier to not build buildings / it's easier to walk on eggshells" way of thinking--which did not work, of course. I'm 5'7" and 120 pounds. When stbx feels cranky (often), he tells me I'm fat, lazy, psychotic, and ugly. But he still won't leave. Finally, I moved into another camp trailer on the property (massive blow up about that). This offered some relief, but when winter came, I had no way to keep it warm. I moved to the rental I'm in now (which triggered yet another massive blow up). My first couple of weeks in a real house (after 23 years) were like waking up from a really bad dream. There's no going back.

however, "the regular routine" still exists. Stbx and I discuss how to split assets and move on. Sometimes he agrees, sometimes he does not. Doesn't matter, because either way, he pretends it never happened and goes back to his cattle rut circle way of living. Today he was supposed to bring the titles for the vehicles over so we could go get our names off each others cars. he didn't show up, and won't answer his cell phone. Tomorrow he'll claim that he was ready but I didn't hold my end up or something, and that now he's too busy, it'll have to wait. Until when? STOP PRESSURING ME! WHY ARE YOU SUCH A DRAMA QUEEN? WHY IS IT ALWAYS ABOUT YOU?" I've done this movie so many times, I know exactly how it will go. It is, after all, "the regular routine".

My business is absolutely booming right now. I did double the sales last year as I did the year before. But i'm afraid to keep investing in it. It looks like I cannot get him to do anything (the irrisistable force meets the immovable object). I will likely have to go the lawyer route. I have 2 sets of friends with businesses I watched do this--they were not able to remain partners like they thought they could, and fought over the business. Went to court, judge orders them to sell the business. Business doesn't sell, they're ordered to liquidate it. After the auction, they don't have enough to pay the lawyers.

If that's the case, I should liquidate now, donate the property to charity (no one would buy that hill-billy hell hole), get the divorce, and RUN AWAY as far as I possibly can.

Sounds stupid, but it's the only solution I see right now. Unless anybody else has something else. my friends here keep coming up with ideas about fair division. Great. then i remind them "Yeah, that's a good idea. Now let's pretend that didn't happen". It's not that he doesn't agree to equitable splits--it's that he won't sign or do ANYTHING.

I feel sick to my stomach. I really do.

doubleAries,

I'm sure this was not what you signed up for when you said "I do".  I am so sorry that it's this complicated and further complicated by your H's mental illness.

Besides confidential Legal advice-can you lay out the most pressing tasks for yourself in order?

Like... .  Tax time is a month away-get that done first?

then reassess living spaces/rent/ lease options?

Then figure out looking at past taxes, and profit/loss whether your business is solvent-and should be maintained/kept-or perhaps you find another job?

Don't even attempt to tackle this all at once, Maybe take the most urgent tasks, one at a time and break it down?

I'm no expert-just a fellow struggler.

Sending you strength, clarity and prayer.

GL

DoubleAries

I can totally understand why you are feeling overwhelmed.

I think that getting legal advice from multiple attorneys would help. If you can find an attorney that does business law, contentious divorce with mentally ill spouses, and real estate then you've struck gold. I have one here that does all that but he's not in your state unfortunately.

Since you have no kids the most important thing is your business so focus on protecting that. 

If you can't then you need to figure out a strategy where you can be safe and also make a living.

What I like about a good attorney is that they can help you strategize and remove the emotion from the process. You need one that respects women and understands the mentally ill spouse in your case is also dangerous.

As for disentangling before the divorce and sharing a T with your H, well, I'm not so sure optimism about this being possible is realistic other than what s outlined above in the posts of others.

Also concerned about sharing a T because people with these cluster B disorders can easily fool a therapist so just be careful and trust your gut.

For now, operate under the radar. Pretend you are depressed and disengage as much as possible as in the oft quoted ' warning signs you are dating a loser.' By dr. Joe carver. It's the best advice for disentangling I've ever read.

Save the car titles and anything else stressful until after you get legal counsel.

Can you fire him?

Just... .  fire him?

That won't resolve all the other issues, but it might be a big step toward disentangling things... .  

Thanks again, all.

This is the only place I know to go where others will understand marrying and then divorcing a crazy person, and the mind boggling minutia that goes along with it.

Let me look back and reply in order:

gina louise--

thanks. A lot.

Ah, yes--good ol' tax time. I'm up to my ears in receipts and papers right now. The business is definitely solvent. In fact--booming. I do have to take all this in some order, I'm trying to figure that order out. I have 2 weeks to decide if I'm renewing my lease or not. a little longer on the taxes. I live in the middle of nowhere. Jobs and good lawyers are scarce, if existent. This has been my job for 17 years. I can't just go get a job--this business is in my name. I have obligations to my customers, too.

hmmm... .  

mamachelle--

an attorney that does business law, mental case divorces, and real estate! Does such a thing exist? Most of the lawyers in my county are bankruptcy or ambulance chaser attorneys.

I just came froma 2 hour session with my T. He is actually a really good counselor and I'm lucky to have found him. He did help me "strategize" tonight, and as he is stbx's counselor as well, he fully understands the situation. He thinks I should type up an agreement, take it to stbx and tell him "this is what I want to do. You can come with me to sign and notarize it right now. If you do not want to do that, then I am going to sign it and notarize it myself and file it at the courthouse with divorce papers." As frightening as this prospect is, I also think it is the only thing that will work. I have to be the one to move this forward--stbx will never take any action whatsoever. My T understands that stbx isn't clinging to the "relationship"--he's paralyzed by fear of instability. And believes stbx will never have any real stability until he becomes independent.

The truth of the matter is that my business may become a casualty of all this. Stbx is clinging to that more than anything else. So am I.

I'm not convinced stbx will continue his counseling once all this blows up. He claims to have benifited from it (and I think he has), but what's that got to do with anything?

T is well aware of cluster B's ability to fool others. And stbx's history of it. For the time being, he (T) relies on me to fill him in on what's really going on. He's a good T, and not fooled by the "none of this is my fault" lines. He's also not encouraging me to stay in the r/s just so he has eyes/ears on what the deal is. I've gone to a few of T and stbx's sessions (last fall when stbx had a relapse) and was amazed at T's ability to ferret out the truth--simply, cleanly, and without triggering stbx into a rage. It was nothing short of amazing to watch. He knows how to immediately get past the presentation to the unraveling that's going on underneath it. Amazing, it truly is.

You know, I read an article on here about leaving a BPD--I need to read it again. For the emotional part at least. Pretend to be confused and depressed. I've tried that on him before and was impressed how well it worked--stbx was just completely uninterested in engaging if I seemed "needy" of emotional support or cheering up. Good thinking--thanks for the reminder!

Matt--

I HAVE fired him. Repeatedly. He screams "ARE YOU FIRING ME?" and then after he calms down, "the regular routine" comes into play again. He simply pretends that didn't happen, and resumes work. When I say "hey--you were fired, remember?" we have a repeat of the previous. As many times as I have been willing to play Abbot and Costello. I finally get worn down and give in (especially when there about 35 orders sitting there waiting to be processed).

Some friends came over this morning and tried to help me brainstorm. Finally how I got them to understand, is by every great idea they came up with, I said "That's a good idea! Now let's pretend that didn't happen".

What I am mostly up against here is the pretending-this-isn't-happening issue.

So perhaps T is correct. At first he referred me to a mediator, then changed his mind and said it wouldn't do any good, because disagreement of asset divisions isn't the problem. Avoidance is. I can't make him co-operate or participate. I was really, really, really hoping we could take care of all this and then get a quiet divorce. I know that stbx isn't very emotionally invested in the r/s, so that's not the problem.

What I would *like* to see happen is I trade stbx my property for his share of the business (and divorce him). Then hire him back until he finds another job or I can replace him (it will take at least 2 people to replace him--he's a workaholic). He has agreed to this before. But like I said--it doesn't matter if he agrees or disagrees--he pretends that didn't happen/isn't going to happen. So I think that's what I'll type up. I think it's quite fair for both of us (though this still leaves me with no cash, a business with nowhere to put it, and looking for somewhere to live). I don't want to live on the hill-billy property anymore anyway, and think it would be a nightmare to sell, but stbx is shoehorned in, wouldn't have to move (which is his greatest fear), and doesn't mind living in a box at the top of a mud slide.

I'll struggle for a bit, but be able to pull it all back together.

That is IF this could happen. If a court could make it happen. I can't. And I'm not exactly filled with faith in the legal/judicial system. Stbx has a brother who is a district court family judge that we don't really get along with--if stbx's brother is any indication of what judges will do (and he is), my stomach hurts again.

Hi DA

Here is a link to the article I was referencing. I've seen it used often here to help leaving folks-- at least back when I first started on these boards in 2005... .  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56157.20

It occurs to me that with the business, there is nothing stopping you from starting a few more businesses once the ink is dry on the divorce.

I work for a guy in a small but profitable company. It has been around 27 years. His brother is part owner. He and his brother really can't stand each other.  My boss is also a part owner in his company. Neither brother really knows anything about the other brother's business. Both are "stealing" and concealing income from the other. Both have multiple other side businesses that they use to develop different aspects of their core business which the other brother has no investment in.

So, a possible solution would be to start a new S corp or LLC. Have that either take over and grow an aspect of the business that could be developed. These corps could also buy another smaller business. These businesses could also become a vendor for your core business as well.

You seem to be very good with the business end of things and I think that given the emotional attachment your Stbx has to the business that the more you can marginalize him the better.

I would definitely not  advise you to take a paper to him outlining your intents until you have consulted with an attorney or two. This will trigger him and could put you in real danger.

As for attorneys... .  well, I find that older attorneys have seen and done a lot. My attorney right now used to run a real estate business while simultaneously practicing as a family law attorney with some very wealthy clients. He has seen it all and done it all. I had another one back in the day that was a similar profile, older guy, again he had experience with dealing with all these things simply because he had been in business for 40 years.

Well, I hope this helps.

You're not taking strong, clear action - you're recycling with him - so he has come to see that you don't mean what you say.

When I say, "Fire him", I don't mean "Pretend to fire him" or "Threaten to fire him", I mean "fire him."

Plan it.  Do it in a public place, like an open area where others are nearby but not within hearing.  Make notes so you know exactly what you will say.  Consult with an attorney or an HR professional first to make sure you do it right.

"Your employment with [company] is terminated effective immediately.  You will be paid through the end of this week.  You will also be eligible for continuing benefits through [date].  Here is a letter which explains the details.  Here is a form for you to sign, acknowledging that you have received the termination letter;  you need to sign that and then we will give you your check.  I need your key and any other company property you may have before we give you your check.  You can take all your personal property - I'll wait while you box it up."  etc.

Have a third party present as a witness, and be prepared to call the police if necessary, if he won't give you his key and leave the property in a timely way, like 10 minutes or so.

Til you take strong, clear, consistent action to disentangle all these issues - employment and all the other issues you describe - nothing will change.

Most here have eventually realized that continuing contact after a relationship is over simply doesn't work or isn't worth the continuing stress, and certainly not long term.  The lines get blurred between work and relationship and the problems still never end.  Yes, he may be a good worker, but it's still a problem for you and the continuing contact makes it harder to stay on track with the next steps of disentanglement.  As you wrote, "I finally get worn down and give in."

Just saying.

Prior to terminating his employment, go to your bank and cancel his debit card (or do whatever the bank says needs to happen after you explain the circumstances).

If it were me, I would:

1) consult a lawyer about how best to do it, with full disclosure to the lawyer about the separation and divorce entanglement

2) have one impartial witness to the termination -- preferably the lawyer or a paralegal

3) put the termination notice in a letter, as FD suggests, with all relevant info (date of termination, wages owed, date through which benefits are paid, etc.)

4) get all company property at the time of termination -- debit card, keys... .  

5) change the locks to your business location immediately, even while the termination conversation is going on.

6) change the locks to your house, and anything else he has access to

7) detach as much as you can from his reaction, because he's going to have said reaction either at that point or later, anyway

Yes to Gagirl's point, any time you fire somebody, you need to be aware that he could file a lawsuit, and make sure you do everything properly, so you are not at legal risk.

An hour spent with an HR attorney should do it.

You really need a good atty.  My sister went through a divorce in CO back in 2009.  She was hesitant to get an atty and ratchet up the hostility.  ex BiL is bipolar spectrum with NPD.  He was cheating with prostitutes and he physically abused her.  fortunately I made her call the police.  And then a restraining order applied...   She was initially very freaked out about that.  Once he moved back in a month later she came home one day and caught him with the OW she kicked him out.  He tried to commit suicide in front of the house 4 days later.  all that sunk him in the divorce she got full custody whereas with his previous wife they had 50/50 split.  He also kept her name off the deed on the house which was his prior to her marrying him.  If they hadn't refinanced in both their names should would have only been eligible for splitting the amount the house appreciated once they got married not the entire value of the house.   

So to be clear the house was valued at 600,000 at the time of the divorce, it was valued at 500,000 when they married.  He was convinced she was only owed 50,000.  Which turned out not to be true because of the refi.  They were married for 7 years I'm not sure if that changes things like it does in CA where if you are married for longer than 10 years that changes settlements. 

You really need to talk to an attorney.  I wouldn't make a single move even firing him without discussing it first.  But you may be in better stead with your property than you realize.  if his name is not on the deed you may only owe him the part it appreciated during your marriage. 

I have printed all this out so I can refer back to it often and when necessary.

I did accomplish partial success today. I spoke with an attorney, who seemed to mostly agree with what my T said. The attorney made a good point as well--he said if I sell stbx my property, not only will I have some money to work with while searching for another house, stbx will be the one dealing with the headache of selling it if he decides to leave somewhere down the road (fat chance of that--he's unable to make any decisions). Attorney actually said he'd just finished dealing with a divorce that involved a schizophrenic with personality disorders, pretty much the same situation--the mentally ill party agreed to various proposals but was mentally unable to act on them.

I asked the bank once to cut off access to stbx's debit card. They refused, and said only he could cancel his card (on MY account!) Attorney today said because there is no binding agreement about the card use. He recommended I don't do the whole thing all at once--that I sell stbx the property, and type out an agreement about business partnership and division of assets (that includes limiting debit card use), ask stbx to sign it. If he does, attach it to divorce papers and file them. If he doesn't, attach to divorce papers and file them anyway. He (like me) says it is unlikely a partnership between us can work. But says if I get myself into a stable position first, instead of renting with nowhere to put the business yet, then I will be better prepared for the battle over the business. Also that the fact that the business is only in my name will make a BIG difference later on, when we are divorced--and to avoid bringing this up to stbx. make no more references at all to the fact that the business is my name only.

And he believes (and may be right) that if stbx has purchased my property from me and has a secure place to live, he will be LESS prepared for that battle. I know this sounds ludicrous, but his explanation makes sense in the context of dealing with mental illness. Less panic for someone with severe mental illness--especially one with such a rigid need for "stability" and an inability to ACT, means less likelihood of raging retaliation, because he's more likely to withdraw into his safe place--his home. He thinks I'm heaping too many changes at once on stbx, and should approach more piecemeal and systematically. Yes, it takes a little longer, but a desirable outcome is more likely.

Attorney typed up an agreement for me. (paraphrasing) It says I will sell real property to stbx for $40,000,  and leave all claims to real property, and stbx will be responsible for all matters regarding said property. That stbx and I will remain as business partners but that either of us may change our mind and decide to terminate partnership at any time, at which time another agreement plan will be decided--said plan will be in reference to business partnership ONLY and may not include revisions to present agreement. Stbx may only use business account debit card or other business resources with my express permission and agrees that debit card/access to business resources can be cancelled by me if he does not have my permission and expends business resources anyway. Stbx will forfeit claim to any other personal property of mine, present or future, immediately upon signing, and likewise for me.  Real property deed will not be transferred to stbx until receipt of payment. After deed transfer, the business will pay stbx $500 per month rent for use of current workshop space (if applicable) until business relocates, at which time, rental payments will cease. After business relocates, whether rent has been paid or not, and after deed transfer, stbx will pay 1/2 of workshop cost ($12,500) back to business within 24 months.

All this only cost me $75!

I took the agreement to stbx, asked him to read it, and he did. He agreed. I asked him to come with me to sign it in front of a notary. HE DID! (he frowned about the debit card clause, but was so happy about the business rental clause that he blew off the debit card stuff--which is why the attorney suggested it. He was right!) I told stbx I would print off divorce papers and attach the agreement to them and file it on Monday. He agreed to this. Whether he actually shows up or not to sign divorce papers isn't quite as important now. Attorney said a judge *could* throw out the agreement if battling ensues during divorce, but since it's a fair agreement, and signed/notarized, it's less likely. And that I can use the agreement with the bank to cancel his debit card if I need to, once agreement is declared legal in court.

I will file for the divorce option that says "we have no children or disagreements about assets" so that we don't even have to go to court, just have a magistrate sign off on the divorce and mail us the final decree (which will require stbx's signature to file--keeping my fingers crossed). Attorney recommends, obviously, that I don't bother to explain to stbx that at any time during the 3 month waiting period, stbx could revoke the whole thing and opt for a judge to intervene.

So progress has been made--not the full enchilada, but MAJOR progress nonetheless! A huge weight is lifted from my shoulders! Attorney says come on back when the business battle begins. FINALLY! Light at the end of the tunnel!

Thanks everyone, and I will be sure to keep you updated. Keep your fingers crossed for me!  :)

Could you open a new account, and move all the money from the old one into the new one, and not give him a debit card on the new account?

would that be legal in a divorce proceeding? I know it wouldn't be for personal accounts, but not sure about business accounts. Probably the same--the divorce papers very specifically say no one is allowed to move or transfer assets.

Hmmmm... .  that seems like something that would send him over the edge and cause him to cancel what he has already moved forward on so far.

But I could do that after the divorce, I suppose.

he's not abusing the debit card right now--only when he has a manic cycle.

I think opening a new account, even at another bank, should be done post-divorce and especially when the partnership is "let go".  Hmm, would his being a 'partner' give him a right to cards, etc?  I guess not if the agreement states you control that financial aspect.

I would also agree not to take any actions that might upset the apple cart... .  until the divorce is final and even allow a little extra time for the dust to settle.  What's 3, 4 or 5 months when a few days ago it felt like it would take ages?

I agree that it was a smart move to let the property go for a reasonable amount.  You were already gone and you would have had a very hard time getting him out.  Be aware that you may have to nicely do the paperwork for him each step along the way.  While you don't want to appease (or as little as possible for the next few months) neither do you want to trigger any overreactions or stonewalling.

Make copies, file the original in a safe place.

Hi DA

Great news. I am so happy for you. Real progress and your attorney sounds like a keeper.

I know your core business will be ok in the long run and continue to grow. You may need to think 'outside the box' to keep going but it looks like you already have. :)

Just remember to hide your elation, don't discuss the deal details with any mutual friends or employees. Keep it all under your hat and appear depressed or just head down moving forward-- business as usual. It's likely he is processing and watching for signs when he is with you. You know how these folks have a sixth sense. Be prepared for him to go ballistic with a few short bursts with some pat lines. Make him feel that he has the better deal.

My boss can limit amounts on his business amex cards for his employees and gets a text message with each transaction. He's a bit paranoid and Bipolar/uSociopath but hey I love my job most days :) Anyway, I think you could take debit card away with exchange for amex card. My limit is $3000 but you can go lower. Also the text message thing is good.

Again, breathe a little today. phew!

Mamachelle

I think that once the divorce is final, I can do whatever I want with the business. It is a sole proprietorship in my name. In a strictly legal sense, he is NOT a "partner" and has no more "right" to debit cards or even credit cards than any of the other employees (and they don't have cards). Actually, even in a day to day sense--while he does work hard, he is not capable of dealing with or even recognizing what needs to be done on a managerial level. He usually thinks I'm "slacking off" when I'm ordering packaging and labels, making collection calls, shipping/receiving, inventorying, invoicing, etc, etc--any of the stuff he does not want to do. He generally even refuses to train new employees.

I don't think there is anything he can do about it if I change accounts post-divorce. The only claim he has right now is through marriage. This is why the lawyer is saying "don't talk about whose name the business is in. Don't mention it, bring it up, point to it in anger. Like him, pretend that doesn't exist". If we file the "no children, no assets dispute" divorce paperwork, we won't even have to go to court, and the lawyer thinks this is the best way to go in this case especially (so do I). Who knows what he'd do/say in front of a judge? Best to remove even that possibility.

If he thinks he's a partner, so what?

I've been trying to get out of this mess for 15 years (geez, I can hardly believe it--time sure doesn't fly when you're in HELL!), so what's a few more months? Especially since I don't have to live with him anymore.

I have no desire to cheat him or manipulate him. I just want to escape, with as much of my own hide intact as possible. He'll be getting a pretty good deal on the property ($20K under market value), and that's OK--I'll be getting a lot more out of it than I paid for it! The goals I had when I bought that land are no longer the goals I have now anyway--and he will likely thrive better with a place in the woods to hide (that was what I needed 23 years ago, got it, time to move back out into the world now).

And yes, mamachelle, you are right. He IS watching me closely. I pretend not to notice. When he says "good morning!" when I show up for work, I look down, shuffle my feet and mumble "good morning". This makes him think I might want to discuss my feelings or something  lol and he disappears fast. My T also has given this same advice. Says if stbx says something outrageous, don't JADE, just start looking weepy and confused. Makes me feel like a phony liar, but whatever works, I guess.

I just hope this works. He signed the agreement, but not the divorce papers. Isn't stalling that I know of, just gone this weekend. We'll see Monday. I'll let you all know.

(Why isn't there an emoticon of a smiley ripping it's hair out?)

Hey DA,

It sounds like you really are holding almost all the cards which is wonderful news.

I remember it being like a chess game more than faking my behavior when i had contact with exBPDH at our kid exchanges. i needed to escape and keep his radar jammed so to speak. the good thing for now is you get to see his moods day by day. its ok to smile and relax and joke but the overall picture is confused, depressed, tired, stressed... .  I would wear old clothes, leave my hair in a ponytail, tell him i was just going to see a movie with a girlfriend. i did this for 2 years... .  

keep us posted on your week, hope this weekend you got a break.

mamachelle

I think I'm pretty organized with the steps and what order I need to do them in now. I printed off the appropriate forms for divorce and filled them out. I have a lot of boxes to mail tomorrow (monday) and other "monday stuff" to do, so on Tuesday, I will ask him to go to the courthouse with me and file them (and feel out if it seems like it would work to "while we're at it and at the courthouse, why don't we take the vehicle titles along and get them squared away?".

I will renew my lease on my rental for another 6 months.

After the divorce (which takes 3 months), then I can start house hunting again.

Once I find a place, get settled and move the business, then I can hire a couple of people I will train to start taking over stbx's duties.

Then I can approach stbx with a buy out proposal.

Then I can start the documentation process of when he's stalking me for the rest of my life (because he will).

And meanwhile, I will continue my counseling to retrain myself to be a healthy, well rounded individual instead of someone who thinks they have to fix someone with severe mental illness in order to deserve valuation and love.

Hey DA,

I'm  lol with your matter of fact acceptance of stalking even though it is not funny at all.

Listen, for the stalking reason alone, I would recommend renting for a while. At least with a rental you can pick up and leave in the middle of the night.

I hope he leaves you alone and the stalking never happens.

My exBPDH left me alone the further I moved from him and from living in places he was comfortable or familiar with.

So, now, when he did show up unannounced at my door after a move and 4 years of not seeing my DD, and we didn't open it, well, he fled the scene. We live in a pretty 50s style ranch suburb where you get the feeling that there is neighborhood watch even if there isn't.

I mean, I would try to live in a well lit, semi crowded, development surrounded by places where stalkers can't feel comfortable-- as awful as it may sound, it may be worth a few extra miles on your car to get to someplace where you can sleep at night.

Mamachelle

mamachelle,

you are talking about a "rational" stalker, not one who loses contact with reality and becomes outright delusional. Over the years, I've watched stbx start getting whacky and get online to look for his high school/college girlfriend. He becomes enraged that she has hidden her contact info on the college alumni site. He tells me (when I catch him--he sneaks to do this of course) that he's "just curious" about her. And when I say "then why are you so angry?" then he gets angry at me. Nice diversion from answering the question.

Oh, it would be nice if I thought he wouldn't stalk me. But that's not realistic. His family thinks he will, our counselor thinks he will. His old college friends think he will. Most of it will just be annoying delusional phone calls and such. Hopefully I'll be able to tell when he's REALLY wound up and it's going to be much weirder (like appearing at a trade show or something).

I approached him today when I got to work about going to the courthouse tomorrow and filing the divorce papers. He acted like this was all a surprise to him. Then he told me he had a counseling appointment tomorrow night, so it needed to be right before his appointment, so as not to inconvenience him. But I have another appointment in another town right before then. Told him it would need to be earlier. Nope. Not convenient enough (I managed to hold my tongue). OK, how about Wednesday? Well, maybe... .  Then he said (all huffy) "I need to get to work now... .  " (there's always that implication that he is practical and I am a drama queen, wasting his valuable time with my silly little "mind games".

Finally I TOLD him to meet me at the courthouse on Wednesday at 1:30 pm and bring the car titles as well. He said he would. We'll see. More than 50% chance he won't do it and then will twist it around to blame me.

Then he spent the next 2 hours petting the dogs and reading the newspaper (even though he was so busy and anxious to get to work that he didn't even have time to finish the discussion about when was "convenient" to file divorce papers). He then made himself scarce and I haven't seen him at all the rest of the day. This is his version of being a "business partner".

Meanwhile, I am spending my evenings ripping my hair out over tax time and which forms I need and what foreign language it says ("if you are required to file schedule A, then attach form J5124 and specify your accounting method" AARRGGHH!)

For what it's worth, I rang the bank and listed our cards as stolen and had mine reissued. By the time N/BPDxh reaslied it was cancelled, he couldn't get another issued without my signature as he was a cardholder on my account.

I got the locks changed on my old house, but he broke in any way, 3 times.

N/BPDxh was/is an A class stalker and in the end, I got an intervention order and disclosed my address. The magistrate was confused and asked me why I wanted him to know it. I told her that I'd rather disclose it than continue to run and hide as xh  he promised me, and the kids, that he would find us wherever we go. I believe that.

It shocked N/BPDxh and the court but I slept more peacefully that night than before. I have CCTV cameras and the local police know where I live and what the problems have been in the past. They can get to me quickly even if I only call 911 (000) and don't speak - my numbers are registered with my address and they'll see the active intervention order and make haste to my house.

He still calls my house occasionally but I screen all calls and the screaming or whatever threatening message is recorded onto my answering machine.

The IVO means there are consequences (jail, fines etc) if he breaches the terms and contacts me or stays within x distance of me and the kids. SO far, after 4 years, it still works. Every day of NC makes it a little easier and hopefully his new GF/s will keep him busy enough. Pity I was the only gal stupid enough to procreate with him.

I feel more safe now than ever - and he knows exactly where I am. Go figure! Maybe by taking away the challenge to find me, I think I have helped to defuse the attraction?

DID IT!

I can't believe it! Stbx actually showed up at the courthouse today!

He did suddenly balk about attaching our agreement to the divorce papers. I thought about it for a minute or 2 and decided that actually, the agreement protected him more than me (especially in the long run) and agreed. So we filed the "no kids, no fighting over assets" version. Filed an affadavit to not have to appear--we will get something in the mail if this is approved, and then won't even have to appear in court. A magistrate will rubber stamp it and mail us the final decree.

I can hardly believe it!

This will still take 3 months, but at least the ball is finally rolling.

Then we went downstairs to the clerk and recorders office and took our names off each others car titles. Stbx started looking apprehensive and I asked "what's wrong?" thinking maybe he was sad, but without a moments hesitation he replied "now my car insurance is going to go up."

I'm glad I asked. Now when I wake up in the middle of the night tonight, with anxxiety gripping me as I codependently berate myself ("was I asking for too much? Did I complain too much? Maybe I didn't try hard enough! maybe it's all my fault!" I can think of that and remember "oh yeah--there never really was a relationship."

Anyway, it's finally in motion. We'll see what the next few months brings... .  folie

Wow, all this in 9 days?  After months and years of fretting?

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc255/4ever4/avatars/DancingOldMaid.gif)

While there will still be some bumps along the way, it was that first step that was the hardest.  That lawyer was worth every penny.  Did he sign the agreement but just didn't want it attached to the divorce?  In any case, you know that you're being reasonable.  It might be good to talk with the lawyer again to see how that affects your options and strategies going forward.

SO good to hear... .    |iiii

I had to  lol about the car insurance. My exBPDH called me and begged me to keep him on my car insurance months after we signed the agreement--even offering to pay me the difference. I was like uh no... .  

What a difference a week can make. :)

I have a great T who would give me that same kind of advice. Except she isn't an L, and quite often I would tell my L about what my T said, and my L would groan.

I think you need to file for divorce and let this go through the courts. It isn't likely to be amicable. Sorry  :'(

Nor will it be cheap or easy. Pull the band-aid off fast and use the divorce process to separate your assets. It's unfair and unfortunate that your assets and business will suffer because of the divorce, but that's just how it is. Makes me never want to be married ever again, watching how things go down between lawyers and judges and the law. It's a formula, and no one cares who was mentally ill, who worked the hardest, and who managed money well.

Have you read Splitting by Bill Eddy? That's a good book to help you understand what happens when you mix mental illness and the courts. It's mainly for people who have kids, but the general message and underlying insights would probably help you. You're right to think that legal stuff will make the PD and mental illness escalate, but at least there are some measures to force cooperation.

It's like trying to get gum off your shoe, divorcing a pwBPD or any kind of PD. It's messy, hard, takes a long time and the stickiness never really goes away.

But divorcing and being apart is worth it! Not a day goes by that I don't feel relief I'm out of that marriage. Being free and healthy is wonderful, even with my custody battle going on 2.5 years now.

Thanks everyone!

Forever dad--it wasn't just years of secretly fretting--it was years of refusal to cooperate. I have the distinct feeling that stbx thinks this is just some kind of "game" I'm playing to try to get him to act the way I want him to or something.

I believe the turning point here is when I finally quit trying to get him to leave and gave up on my own property. When I finally, finally, finally understood that it wasn't ME he was so attached to, it was my home and business. I was simply an obstacle to his attainment of the stability that he wanted (while pretending to already have it).

So when it comes time to disentangle in the business, that's when things are going to get REALLY ugly. But by then, we will be divorced. The business is a sole proprietorship in my name only. He has already signed and filed a document (divorce papers) saying there are no asset disputes. Once I find another place, move the business, and get settled in, I can make him an offer (and I will make a fair and reasonable offer--I don't think it's OK to justify being an Ahole just because someone else is an Ahole). I don't see how he could have a legal leg to stand on to not accept it.

But for the time being, we have to continue to work together. I just remember to not bring up anything AT ALL that is personal in nature (and he never has noticed if I don't) and when he acts like he might want to rehash his resentments, I try to remember to be confused and depressed. He thinks I might want to talk about my FEELINGS (OH NO!) and skidaddles immediately.

Good. *) But don't make it too fair, that otherwise excellent personality trait is our weakness in these situations.  Make the offer at least a little in your favor so you have something left to 'negotiate' if he balks.  Remember, it's not like he wasn't getting paid - or using a card - all these years.

Hmmm... .  good point.

Also I can't get caught up in the "I haven't tried hard enough" mind set (but I think that, through a year and a half of weekly therapy, is finally really lifting).

He got paid a LOT more than he was actually worth, even though he's a workaholic. He never did hold up his end as a "partner". Just an employee without a life.

I really have to give most of the credit here to my/our therapist--he did a FINE job of convincing stbx to cooperate!

Well, so much for the victory dance.

Stbx is entering a manic relapse. He's pretty close to (if not already at) the delusion stage. And mean. We are both members of our local volunteer fire dept. The chief approached me about stbx's recent behavior (just regular manic stuff--for those of you unfamiliar with bipolar, that would be nonstop talking [from someone usually withdrawn and quiet] connecting things that aren't connected, going in 42 directions at once, grandiosity, out of context irritability, etc--plus throw in the bipolar driven extreme flare up of ASPD and NPD) He tried to talk to stbx with the exact results I expected. stbx was angry and sullen, like it was an accusation instead of a discussion of caring and compassion, otherwise, unresposive. Chief and T both told me in the last few days that I need to do something about this business account debit card stbx has. So I did.

I went to work today (which is at my former home--still in my name only--where stbx is still living, and supposedly buying from me next month). I tried to talk to him about calling his doctor, upping his treatment dosages, the like. He treated me the way he's always treated me--like I'm making an accusation, a personal attack. he doesn't want to talk about what he needs to do to get stable again, he wants to have investigations into who said what about him and when, and argue about whether the erratic behavior we see is erratic or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. he ran to the bed and flung himself on it and put a pillow over his head so he wouldn't have to listen. So I told him (on the advice of T and attorney, don't tell him what you're going to do--just do it, then tell him after it's done) "well, I'm going to take the steps I need to in order to protect myself and the business" And he screamed FINE! out from under the pillow.

I then went and got a PO Box and had my personal and business mail forwarded to it. Then I went to the bank and told them what was going on asked what my options were. they said they couldn't cancel his ATM card, but that I could close the business account and transfer all the money to another account and not put his name on it. The bank manager came and looked at the divorce papers we filed (which of course say "no children and no asset disputes", and my Sectretary of State sole proprietorship paperwork, and said this was perfectly legal, go ahead. So I did. And deposited directly the pay day check into his personal checking account so I could close the original account.

I had given stbx a pay day check this morning. When I got back to work, I saw him crossing the road on foot and stopped to talk to him (with my stomach clenching). I told him to give me the check back, as I had deposited the money directly in his personal account. He said the check was up at the house and started to walk away. I told him I needed to talk to him and he just kept walking. So I did some work and left. He called me a couple hours later and asked how I was able to deposit a check into his account without his account number. I told him the bank has it. Then he asked me if I changed any accounts around, and demanded half of the business account money ("RIGHT NOW!". I asked if he was quitting and he said no. I told him what I did (tried to anyway, he wasn't really listening), and he says he’s going to the courthouse tomorrow and “telling on me” to the judge in our divorce case and going to try to cancel the undisputed divorce and say now there IS a dispute. And he’s going to call the police on me for “stealing his money” and then turn me in to the IRS so I can be audited. But first, he wants to “kick my f*ing head off”. Then he hung up on me. I don’t think I’m going to go to work tomorrow.

But now I need to move my business out of there ASAP without getting my head kicked off. If he hasn't already destroyed all the stock and supplies. I have a friend who has offered a pretty decent place to put the business for as long as I need to. But I'm not sure how to get it out of there now. I don't know what to do and I'm scared.

He wants to believe that I "seized" the money for my own personal use, thereby ripping him off. Which is not true at all. But he wants me to give him half the business capital (RIGHT NOW!) for HIS own personal use, while he also continues to be a "partner".

Part of me understands that he is simply being a bully and escalating the behavior he has used for a long time to keep me trapped, but there's some sick stupid part of me that is frantically berating myself for "provoking" him and doing "the wrong thing". This part I know is incorrect codependent survivor of childhood abuse tapes playing in my head, and I can sort of brush it aside, but it makes a bad situation worse. No, I won't give in to it (if I have to cling to the idea that I'd be disappointing the people who are also stbx's friends but have advised me to do this because they understand the situation more objectively than I do, so be it), but this doesn't mean I do know what to do.

It's pretty scary.  :'(

I'm sorry things have taken a bad turn.  Saying prayers that it won't last like this.

In the meantime, do what you need to do for yourself.  If it means moving your business equipment/supplies, then get it done.  If you need to get some friends, or other volunteer fire fighters, or anyone else to go with you and help, then do it.  You can't let fear of what he's going to do stop you from taking care of yourself.  Let him go to the courthouse, let him do whatever he wants.  Just don't stop taking your own steps forward.

I think you'll find each step forward you take in the face of your fear will unlock a little more strength and courage and after it's done you'll feel rather strong and better about yourself just from having successfully stood up for yourself.

A flame-out was almost predictable.  We all wish you could have gotten past the divorce waiting period but, well... . don't beat yourself up over it.  Maybe he'll calm down.

Can you get further advice from that lawyer before taking any major actions?

Whatever else you do, don't give him access to your accounts again.  Open that door and you're right back to where you were before.

I would consider that check as a lost cause, one way or the other.  If it's written on a closed account, all that would happen is it would bounce, I would imagine.

If it will calm him down and reduce the risk of him complaining to the judge ("She got me to sign and then look what she did to me!", then determine a way to calm him down.  Maybe tell him to sign the back of the check and you'll "cash" it for him?  He's triggered now, all he feels are the emotions and emotional impacts, I don't know if he can be untriggered.  Likely court is closed until Monday, so he has time to calm down.

Regarding any persons accompanying you, call them your helpers to move things, don't indicate they're there also to protect you or keep things from getting too much worse.

Lastly, are you recording his threats?  Know this, those were threats.  (In my area my court eventually ruled my ex's death threats weren't "imminent" and therefore dropped the case, but it helped keep us apart and me feeling safer during that initial separation period.)  You need to protect yourself and his actions need to be documented in ways that you can access later if necessary.  My advice, record all contact henceforth.

Can you just go tot he bank and cancel the check?

I need to make this clear--stbx is bipolar with paranoid delusions, ASPD and NPD.

This isn't just an emotional blow up. He's truly CRAZY. ASPD used to be called "sociopath" for a reason. In the new world of politically correct "new speak", we say "anti-social" because it doesn't sound so stigmatizing and "mean". But the fact remains that an ASPD is still a sociopath/psychopath. There is more than a "potential" for dangerous violence. He's smart enough to commit violence without threatening it. And what is happening right now is the tip of the iceberg. It's a big part of what kept me trapped, afraid to escape.

I have to be very careful about who I ask to accompany me back over there to see what smoking ruins are left of my business. I can't minimize the danger they are being exposed to. And unfortunately, people who aren't used to dealing with truly crazy people will minimize it even if they are told (will believe I'm being dramatic, exaggerating). Even the police.

The check, I'm not worried about. I wrote him a check before I went to the bank. After I closed the account and opened another one, I just deposited the same amount of money as the check into his personal account because the check obviously wouldn't clear. He earned the money--he can have it. the bank told me they will tell him nothing about the new account, they will only tell him the original account is closed. And that if he goes berzerk in the bank, they'll call 911.

I definitely will continue taking the steps forward I need to take. Even if it is hard to determine what they are and whether they will get me killed or not. But this is pretty frightening. And I already know this is only the tip of the iceberg. IF I am actually able to escape, he will stalk me for the rest of my life.

It's not the check I am concerned about. He earned the money--it's his. I don't care about the check. I deposited the money in his account, and tore the check up. That part is done and there's no problem there.

What I'm concerned about is getting my head kicked off. After that foremost concern, my next concern is about $60,000 worth of uninsured inventory being destroyed, along with the property that is still in my name.

My next concern (which ranks right up there, actually) is being stalked for the rest of my life by a person who is absolutely delusional and in a rage.

Look all, I don't think I'm explaining this correctly. Let me try to make a point of reference here:

Most of the people here on these boards are (or have been) dealing with a BPD. Yeah, I've met some of those. They suck.

My situation is different. It's kind of the same, but X 10. Here's the simplest way to describe it. My mother fits ALL the criteria for the now removed from DSM4 Sadistic Personality Disorder with Borderline features. What Millon called "an explosive Sadist". If you think a BPD is bad, try a true sadist. They make the BPD's look like sweet little old ladies. If you need to see a few stories of what it's like to grow up with a sadist for a mother, read some of my other posts on other boards.

With this kind of background, this kind of point of reference (which, even though as a kid, you KNOW is crazy, it still gets "normalized" to a great degree, in order to survive), that's how you grow up and marry someone like my stbx. He's not "annoying". He's INSANE. Most serial killers and the like are ASPD's. Now take an ASPD and mix in some paranoid delusions and manic outbursts. That's when you wind up with those guys who shoot up movie theaters and such.

While stbx hasn't actually done that (yet?), that's his mindset. That's his kind of reality. He hears about those guys on the news and angrily sympathises with them, bellowing about how "nobody understands" and those "poor" guys are being railroaded. What about all the people he killed? Well, maybe he shouldn't have done that (said because he knows that's what he's supposed to say).

This is truly like a grade B movie, one so ridiculously dangerous it isn't believable. And there's me--right in the middle of it, struggling with stupid unconscious beliefs that it "must be my fault", and at least overcoming that enough to know I need to escape but not sure how or who can help me.

Where I live, those would be magic words for an instant protection order. It won't reduce the danger your feel, and might make him worse, but it allows you certain protections, like calling the police if you are trying to move your business stuff and don't want him there.

DA - if you have documentation of his threats, please don't be afraid to go to your magistrate and apply for a protection order.  If you don't have documentation, please go do it anyway.  Lots of times, they'll order it for short term with nothing other than an accusation as evidence.  I believe most jurisdications will allow for protection orders to be enacted based on "terroristic threats".  Take copies of your phone logs, etc. so you can tell the magistrate "he made this threat during this call at this time.  he threatened to <list out the individual threats>.  If you have proof of prior issues that show a pattern of abuse/violence (and violence doesn't have to be physical, it can be anything that causes emotional distress, fear, control, etc. - the threats that he has now made are violent behavior), take it, tell the magistrate about those issues too.  Show an escalating pattern of violent, threatening behavior. 

Ask for an order of protection that requires him to have no contact with you and requires him to leave the premises of your property on the grounds that you need protection for your business holdings on the property.  Hopefully the magistrate will approve the order, and then he'll be served.

That would give you enough time to perhaps get your business materials out, and also safely inspect and document the property's condition as of right now before the hearing on whether to issue a standing protection order.  Then if he causes any damages, you can prove it.

I know you're scared to death, but the more pro-active action you take right now to protect yourself, the better off you'll be.  It's okay to send a clear message to him that you will not tolerate being threatened, and further escalation on his part will bring about major repercussions.  At this point, you're not trying to get out of this amicably.  You are trying to get out of this safely.  Amicable and safe don't necessarily go hand in hand when dealing w/ disordered people.  And yeah, he'll flip out more when he gets served the order paperwork.  However, I believe that you are better off if you take a stand now, rather waiting for things to escalate to even worse later.

You can do this.  You can stand up for yourself, and stand up to his bullying.  You're dealing with the abuse cycle and the only way to stop it is to step out of it and not participate anymore.  You can take control of your own choices and actions and change this cycle so the abuse cycle stops.

All of this is just my humble opinion of course.  And I'm truly sorry that things have taken this turn for you.  I hope they turn around to something better for you soon!

I'm sorry this is going on. Please keep checking in as you can.

i think an OOP might help just so you can get police help and put them on notice-

I think police escort to the business is best.

Rent a truck and load up and move the business to storage or another temp location?

Can you or your therapist commit him?

(even 24 hours might help give you some breathing room)

Talk to your attorney soon too.

It's best if you have the threats documented, but where I live, you can get an "Order Of Protection" (like a restraining order) even if you don't.

What's critical is that you convince the court that you are afraid, and you have a reason to be afraid - you're not making stuff up.  That's not the same as proving he broke the law.  It just means that the judge decides that you are afraid - you can say "I am afraid." - and that you seem to be rational and reasonable.  Most requests for OOPs are granted.

I would not hesitate to do that if you have any concern at all about your safety.

And if he violates the OOP, that can bring severe penalties for him, especially if he does it more than once.

It's interesting how years long patterns can change in an instant. That is what has happened to me today.

I went down and chatted with the sheriff, whom I know pretty well (not just from the fire dept, but from political activities--same view, fortunately  ). Asked him, confidentially, what my options are, without actually making a report. He told me to pick up a restraining order packet and read it and think about it, and was also frank in saying it doesn't do much good until AFTER it's broken and that it usually plays out differently with someone with severe mental illness--often causing an escalation and sometimes triggering this mentally ill person to be more violent than they would have been without it.

I explained that I needed to move my business off the property and to somewhere neutral where employees--and myself--can show up for work without fear of "getting their heads kicked off", and he said deputies could do a civil standby while I move the business items, but that if stbx tells police to leave, they have to. So he said monday morning, I should go to the courthouse and, using my divorce case #, ask for a court order to remove the business items. Then the deputies can show up and prevent stbx from doing anything but watching as I move the business. I told sheriff that I was going to call stbx and see if he'd calmed down and try to talk to him. He said OK. Now here's where it gets "fun":

I picked up a supply order delivery at the bottom of the driveway and took it up, and there’s stbx, just getting up (at 4pm). Told him maybe we need to talk. He’s all snide with me—“wadda ya want to talk about?” Says obviously we aren’t partners anymore and demanding I reinstate his ATM card. I told him if he has legitimate business expenses, he can submit the receipts to me and I will reimburse them. He refused. Says he doesn’t want to be partners or work with me anymore. I asked him if he still wanted to buy the land from me, he said no and asked if I was kicking him out. I told him no, but if he isn’t going to buy the land, then maybe he better start looking for somewhere else to move to, or start paying rent. He said NO. Told me he wants to fight over all the assets, and that T told him that the land would be half his through marriage anyway and that he should fight me for it, and that that’s what he’s going to do, as well as fight me for the business (even though it’s a sole proprietorship in my name. By the way, the T called me this evening and told me that he definitely did not tell stbx that he should fight me for the property, that he’s been trying to encourage stbx to come to an agreement and call it emotional bankruptcy and move on).

I told him fine, bring it on. So he tried to call the courthouse and change the divorce paperwork but they were closed. So I told him I’m moving the business to a neutral location, so the other employees can come to work without fear of getting their heads kicked off. He wanted to know where I was moving it to, and I said that’s none of your business if you don’t want to work anymore or be “partners”. So he tells me that it’s his property now, since I moved, and I needed leave immediately. HUH? He’s kicking me out of my own house, off my own land? I told him NO. So he said you leave or I’m calling the cops on you. I said bring it—call them. So he did--he actually called 911 on me! He told the dispatcher that I had guns in my vehicle and was threatening him! I couldn’t believe the pack of lies he sat there telling the police dispatcher about me RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME! He told her that I stole all the money out of our joint partnership business account, and was threatening him with guns, and trying to kick him off HIS own property!

So I wait for the cops to arrive and they finally get there and I tell them the whole story—stbx and I filed for undisputed divorce, but now things were being disputed, he wanted to buy me out on the property but now he doesn’t, he wanted to continue working together but now he doesn’t, I showed them my car so they could see I had no guns in there, I showed them my Secretary of State paperwork proving the business is a sole proprietorship in my name only, I showed them my property title, I explained that stbx is mentally ill and having a little relapse and scaring the employees and threatening to kick my head off. I told them I want to move my business off the property so employees—and myself--can come to work without fear. They told me “you can’t dispose of property or assets while getting divorced” and I said “yeah, I know—I’m not talking about selling the business and taking the money-- I’m talking about moving it to a neutral place”. Then they called our T (on my advice) because stbx told them that he’s NOT mentally ill, I’m making it all up. The T told them the truth about his dx, and not only that, told them that he believes stbx has the potential to try to kill me some day and that he would definitely stalk me before, during and long after a divorce. He told them that he is also stbx's counselor, so he wasn’t saying this based on what I’ve told him, but on his own observations and conversations with stbx.

So stbx changes his story from what he reported to the dispatcher (he had to—it wasn’t panning out like he said, with some gun wielding standoff going on). At the end of all this, I asked the cops “just to be crystal clear here—I don’t have to leave? And if I want to move business property out of here, you aren’t going to stop me?” they agreed, and told me (in front of stbx) that Monday morning I should go to the courthouse and get a court order attached to the divorce papers itemizing what I want to remove from the property and the police will come and stand by while I do it to keep stbx from preventing it, or hurting anyone. Then they told him he had to let me on the property anytime I wanted to be, and that all they could do is come if I assault him (or vice versa), or come to enforce a court order. They told him he needed to move his truck from blocking access to the workshop road immediately. Then they left.

So it didn’t go quite like he’d planned. I guess he hoped the cops would come and arrest me for being on “HIS” property and then he could just hold the business hostage and not let anyone work so it could either be all his, or fail (you know—the old “if I can’t have it, no one can”). But that’s not what happened.

And now I’m tired of being scared. I’m p!ssed off. I’m FINALLY royally p!ssed off. The gloves are off. If this is the way he wants to play it, then BRING IT ON. Walking on eggshells has never worked. I’ve tried and tried to be fair, to come up with reasonable, fair agreements, and he’s been nothing but obstructionist and selfish. And I’m tired of it. This brings to mind years ago when someone told me “never let anyone kick your butt for free. You might get your butt kicked, but make sure they remember whose butt they kicked”. I’m there. Bring it.

Oh DA

so much craziness in one person. Good you are sort of covered now by the police. At least for the last episode.


This made me smile. 

Please tell me you listened to prior advice and recorded the confrontation?

I believe David has already chimed in that he lives in a restrictive two-party recording state but due to past incarceration due to his ex's lies he records himself and those around him any time he's anywhere near his ex.  He got burned bad, he's super careful now.  Learn from experiences like his.  (I record too, it helped me (1) when we separated and (2) defending myself before CPS investigators.)

My understanding is that your state is a one-party state, that is, you're allowed to record any conversation you're a party to without much worry of legal repercussions.  You need to protect yourself from his lies.  You may not lie, but you now have proof he will lie and lie dramatically and without remorse.  This time his lies were quickly exposed and deflated.  (Notice how he didn't suffer severe consequences for lying in a 911 call or to police?  That's typical.)  Next time it may not be so quick, easy and inexpensive.

Be sure to request a copy of the recording of his 911 call.  (They may delete them after a while, so don't expect them to hold on to them for years.)  Also get a copy of the police report and the names and badge numbers of the officers.

I too agree, odds are he may cause as much chaos and obstruction as he can.  You have to be very careful to be 100% businesslike and not handle this as a break-up or whatever.  Maybe with a break-up you could cuss each other out without consequences, but if you're his employer or even partner, doing the least thing wrong could open you up to all sorts of claims and lawsuits that would be very expensive to resolve.  Find out from your lawyer the 100% proper language to "let him go".  Do it without emotion, probably lawyer would state that you should keep the notice as brief as possible (say too much and you could get yourself into trouble) but make sure it is done 100% legally and by the book, you can't risk any legal fallout.  No one would expect you to continue working with someone who has caused conflict and made false allegations against you.

I would also suggest you be very careful not to verbally or in writing gift him any new rights.  Maybe he has a share of the business, maybe not.  Maybe he is/was some sort of partner, maybe not.  Maybe he gets a stake in the business that you have to buy out, maybe not.  Leave a lot of that to the lawyers, let them say exactly how much equity, ownership or whatever he has.  And if contested let the court or a proper settlement decide.  If you say/write something and you inadvertently gift him more leverage than he really has by those statements, it may be very hard and expensive to unsay or unwrite them.

It may all blow over quickly - let's hope so - but probably not.  You have to be very prepared in case it does get messy.  Looks like your lawyer has some work coming his way... .

We had a big talk today. The problem for stbx with this, is I am now in “the zone”. It is all clear as a bell to me right now. I laid down the law and told him in this particular matter (we discussed a few—the property, the business, and blackmail threats) here are your choices—which one do you pick? He got snippy and said “what am I? A kid? I have to choose whatever you lay out?” and I said yes—you do. And you will sign in front of a notary saying which option you choose. One of your options is to hire an attorney and BRING IT ON, where I promise you I will tear you limb from limb in court. I told him “while you are playing FaceBook, I am researching every possibility for world war 3. I am prepared—let’s do it” (for some reason, he is dead set against hiring himself a lawyer).

So the new and improved agreement includes that he still wants to purchase the property. I told him when he pays for it (whether all at once or in a few installments, depending on how his inheritance is distributed) I will give him the deed. If it is in installments, I will treat the property as his from the first installment. But I won’t quitclaim him the title until it’s fully paid for. Should he fail to uphold his end of this deal, he will have 30 days grace period to find another place to live before eviction proceedings begin. (option 2, which he declined, was: let’s go to court and fight over the increase in value of the property since our marriage, and option 3 was I get a restraining order and you get your butt out of here right now)

Under no circumstances do I intend to remain as “partners” anytime past the trade show at the end of June (if we continue with an undisputed divorce, we will be divorced in mid June). His options are:

Option 1: continue as we always have until after the show—with the exception that stbx has no access to business funds anymore, and will need to be reimbursed for legitimate business expense receipts with prior approval to have purchased the item(s), and I will call the police if he disposes in any way of other business assets, like stock or supplies—and after the show we do an inventory (minus debt) and come to an equitable agreement about him being bought out. Cash proceeds from the show will be divided evenly amongst us as pay for the show; all checks become business funds.

Option 2: Quit right now, do the inventory right now, and agree to terms for being bought out.

Option 3: Hire a lawyer and go to court.

He has agreed to option 1. I will make sure this agreement is written up and signed/notarized, and file it as an addendum to the divorce papers.

He continues to insist that half the business account funds are his. I told him in no uncertain terms that they are NOT. It belongs to the business, not him. That if he had taken ½ the funds out of the business account, then he is disposing of assets. My cutting off of his access to those funds does not constitute disposal—only protection, and that I can prove in court through bank records that I have not removed or disposed of any of these funds—aside from normal business action—in any way. He gets paid exactly the same amount as I do, as the business can afford to do so, as usual, until after the trade show.

Once an inventory has been made, credit card debt and ½ of the cost of the workshop (which would be $12,500) will be deducted from the asset value. ½ of that remaining asset value will be paid to stbx in a timely fashion, as can be reasonably afforded by the business.

As a private agreement that will not be included in the addendum, I have told him that if he keeps threatening me with IRS audits or continues calling the police on me in frivolous fits of anger, I will make authorities aware of all his outstanding felony warrants in other states.

I made clear that I am fully aware that he is likely to change his mind over and over—that is why I want him to sign an agreement. I pointed out to him that when I get mad at him, I don’t change the agreement. But his agreements are based on his emotions at the time. He agreed that this was true (whatever that’s worth—pretty much nothing). I refuse to try to accommodate him anymore. I’ve been more than fair, and he can accept the terms or fight it out. Either one is fine with me. But I am through negotiating. The above terms or court battle. Nothing else. The terms I’m offering are better than what the courts would give him--especially if he refuses to hire a lawyer and stands up there rambling that half isn't good enough and that 2/3's the market value on the property isn't good enough either, and that I need to be punished for dominating him with room temperature.

I actually feel pretty good. The driver’s seat is a good place (rather than passenger seat to a delusional person). I refuse to run or hide from him. A change has come over me—most of the fear is gone and I am confident. I will not be shaken from my resolve.

I know it's not over and there will be more drama. I already requested a copy of the 911 call and police reports (and I know both of the cops who came), and I called the sheriff today and told him about the agreements we came to and would be filing and made stbx speak to the sheriff and tell sheriff that he is going to allow me to move the business to another location without a court order. That way he can't say "I never said that!"

Stbx also resigned from the fire dept yesterday after the police interaction. This probably is for the best for himself (and the dept), as in the 12 years prior to joining the dept, he had only 2 minor relapses--both of which involved getting dosages correct at the beginning of treatment. But in the 3 1/2 years since he joined the dept, he has had 4 serious relapses. It's too overstimulating and he is not regulating himself well. It is encouraging that he is recognizing this. Maybe he'll get something of a grip here soon (which still won't eliminate all the drama, but maybe reduce it)

I am pleased with myself for the moment. In our conversation today, I did not lapse into or allow stbx to lapse into ANY rehashing of resentments or personal grievances. I truly was in "the zone". He knew it too--I could see it in his eyes. He moped around the rest of the day in a defeated mode, but he worked and there was no tension interfering with work.

I typed up the agreement already and emailed it to him, then will run it past lawyer to see if it is correct and makes sense, on Monday get it signed, notarized and filed. I hope the courts will recognize I am making a fair and generous offer to him and see his unreasonable demands for what they are.

Meanwhile I am going to go to some friends for Easter dinner, which is also my birthday this year. That means I get double the ration of chocolate!

phew.

All sounds to be going along a little better. At least he takes his meds. I know many many do not. He clearly lacks insight but he does seem to have some core respect/fear/need for you to be around. He truly wants to work I think and has a need to be needed as sick as that need is.

Keep lawyer, Sherriff, psychiatrist, and T on speed dial.

I agree with all who say record, record, record, and get that 911 call ASAP.


Happy Birthday. Go get that chocolate. I have to steal mine from the kids.  |iiii

LOL!

Fortunately, I don't have to push any little kids down to get their candy!

Yeah, he's sticking with his treatment, though he doesn't recognize when he needs to increase dosages of what--and bipolar can be tricky because of the vascillation between moods (have to be careful about anti-depressants during the manic phase, and careful about depressants during the depression phase--and his aren't really "phases"--he's bipolar mixed, meaning he gets manic and depressed at the same time). But he's understandably scared, because he has resentfully depended on me for so long to manage all this for him.

I know everything is not necessarily going to be fine. But I feel like a huge weight has been lifted just by getting into that place (FINALLY!) where I have stopped wasting time trying to get him to co-operate or be reasonable. That's not within my control. It is absolutely exhausting trying to control what you cannot control! I will still continue to try to steer this toward the easiest softest possible route, but be prepared for the hardest route. And this could possibly become magnificently stupid.

I typed up the agreement and took it to stbx on monday, asked if he thinks this is what we agreed to, he said yes, I said let's go get it notarized so I can file it. He said "nope--today's opening day (baseball). has to happen tomorrow or some other time." I said then I'll go sign it and and file it myself without your signature. Your actions can speak for themselves. So he decided to go sign it as well. I filed it. Am still waiting for the police report and 911 call (I go pay for that today) and am going to start moving the business in the next day or 2.

Should I also attach the police report and 911 call to the divorce or not?

DA,

Good to hear the progress... .   I would consult your attorney on what to attach and what not to attach.

Keep us posted.

|iiii

mamachelle

Attorney is out of town for a couple weeks   (don't they always do that?)

I went down the the sheriff's dept to get copies of the police report and 911 call (have to pay for them--the 911 call is $25. No problem, it will make entertaining listening) and they are going to mail me the 911 call, but couldn't find the police report. The receptionist person said there wasn't a case number assigned and no report. Maybe because it was so stupid?

At first the cops seemed to think they were on a domestic disturbance call. It wasn't until the end of their visit they finally understood what was going on. They thought stbx and I were arguing or something. Then they figured out there wasn't an argument per se--just stbx thinking he could keep the business and property for free if he could get me arrested. The astonishment was evident on their faces. So maybe they didn't think of it as an actual "incident"?

gina louise--yeah, it can be confusing, the small difference between rapid cycling and mixed. In my stbx's case, he also has "psychotic features" (no hallucinations, but plenty of paranoid delusions--then throw in the ASPD and NPD, and things get pretty ugly pretty fast). And I know what you mean about the indescribable "off" thing---it can get so bizarre you can't really explain it to people, because you yourself can't figure out what the heck happened (let alone WHY--and that's what others want you to explain: WHY. They want to make logical sense of something that doesn't make logical sense).

*SIGH*

It's weird to have to work with him now. To me--not to him. He's acting same as usual. And "pretending that didn't happen"--back to the regular routine! That in itself is frightening to me.

I've experienced that.  When I had asked for a police report, all I got was a log sheet/chart for the officer's shift and on the line for my address the 'Resolved' column had a checkmark.  Of course by then I'm sure no one really remembered much of the details of the visit.

Can you ask for a report?  If you're ever going to get one, sooner is better, before the memories fade.  At the least, get the names of the officers who came out if you don't know them already.

I don't see a need to quickly attach the reports to the divorce case, it can wait for your attorney's advice.

I did ask for a report, and if there isn't one, one needs to be made.

I haven't actually hired this lawyer as my lawyer per se--have just been paying him a bit here and there for advice. He's expensive! Cheaper to just get advice.

So I'm thinking maybe I don't need to attach these things to the divorce filing--that might change the status of the filing. Unbelievably, it's still filed as "no kids, no asset disputes, don't want to appear". Which is fine--I'd still rather not go to court. But I did attach the agreement, and told the clerk "just in case".

I'm stupidly hoping it's just a waiting game. But I suppose I should know better. As it gets closer, stbx is even more likely to up the ante in his extinction burst. Lord knows what he'll dream up next. I am relieved to see that he does seem to be more stable now (for now).

doubleAries,

I swear my exBPDH, who is a truck driver, will be driving late at night and get triggered by a Billboard screaming for Father's rights, a radio call in talk show host, talking to a 'friend'- ... .   You never know. It sounds like your stbx is somewhat isolated from others due to his illness and bizarre behavior. I hope the sameness of what he is exposed to every day helps to keep his extinction burst within some predictable range.

I am sure by now, you have learned to see the signs when he is starting to spiral. It is a waiting game, and so far, pretty darn good.

I would hire the attorney. You mentioned $75 for his last bit of advice which would have cost me at least $425 I am sure. My bipolar boss is always trying to do his own legal work. He rewrites contracts, enters into agreements without attorneys reading them, handshake distribution deals... .   When they go bad, he ultimately has to hire attorneys... .   which cost him a lot more than if he had just paid the few hours to review the contracts or make them as the case may be.

Just a cautionary tale.

It is so wild to read the beginning of this post to now. Lots of good things have been put into motion. |iiii

mamachelle

Hi doubleAries,

I think mamachelle makes a really good point about hiring an L and not just taking advice. You may feel like you're saving money now, but advice is never, ever cheap when it comes to BPD and the courts. You are vulnerable right now and need to make sure you aren't making any colossal mistakes -- your ex is going to exploit even the most watertight legal arrangements, and by not having a good L make those agreements watertight, you will make it easier for your ex to find those loopholes.

My N/BPDx was ordered to refinance our house, which (8 months later) he did. But he only remortgaged the house, and did nothing about the subordinated home equity loan. I did a bunch of research and learned that if N/BPDx stuck me with the home equity loan, the judge would probably have ruled in my favor. But it would have cost thousands and thousands of dollars (and all that negative engagement + stress) to get to that point. Instead, I spent $$ on a real estate attorney who has been worth every penny. He made sure that N/BPD and the lending companies did everything correctly, and eliminated my risk entirely.