BPDFamily.com

Does anyone have any insights into the differences between abusive behavior and unstable behavior.

When I was with my ex, I just thought she was unstable, whacked out, overly sensitive, overly emotionally, fiery, dysfunctional. I was certainly not confident that we could have a family together. I was scared about how she would raise kids and how she would treat them, if the treatment of them was anything close to the way she treated me. And I was worried about how she would treat me if we were to have kids.

Is there a difference between categorizing her behavior as being unstable vs. abusive? What do you guys think? As you can see, I'm still really struggling with this label.

Hi rjh.

Two things occur to me.

One is that behaviour can be both unstable and abusive - the two things are not mutually exclusive. And of course behaviour can be 'abusive' without conscious intention on the part of anyone to 'abuse'. Harmful things can be done for reasons which seem very 'good' to the person taking the actions.

Also I understand very well why you're hung up on this 'abuse' thing.

I remember my sense of relief when my T fixed me with a firm look and said 'you experienced abusive behaviour in this r/s' and he tied this thought to the fact that he considered that my ex 'believed in fusional relationships'. In my case the relationship had been very short, intense and surreal and had ended very oddly. It had left me feeling terrible - and also very confused as to WHY it would make me feel so bad. I couldn't make the connections in my head that allowed me to see the relationship between my ex's behaviour and how I felt. So to have a 'professional' outsider tell me that I felt this bad because the behaviour was 'abusive' gave me a degree of closure.

Now I wasn't physically abused or shouted at. So that's one reason why I found it hard to identify what I'd experienced as abusive. But I also think that there's something odd that happens which means that people who are the subject of emotionally abusive behaviour very rarely see it as such. Perhaps it's the very nature of being 'in' the experience that means you cannot really see the experience objectively.

I know too that I was very vulnerable when this r/s (or better yet 'interaction' occurred - and that that contributed a great deal to the degree of pain I felt. But it does not mean that the behaviour I was subjected to was not abusive.

Do you think you might be hung up on the fact that your ex did not 'intend' anything bad - and might indeed be a very vulnerable person herself - and yet still managed to 'abuse' you?

Hmmm... .  Excellent point.

Yes. I think I am hung up on that point. She was extremely vulnerable. She could crack under any perceived threat or insult. Really. Anything. And I am a super sensitive person myself and would always choose my words very carefully and would never demean her in any way. She was extremely, extremely emotional and unstable.

And yes. She would not classify her behavior as abusive. I think she thought it was normal to yell and scream and throw tantrums and go into fits of rage when she didn't get her way or when she thought I was doing something bad.

Maybe that is why I am stuck on it. It is really hard to decipher. My T has told me many, many, many times that she was abusive. Extremely abusive and manipulative.

So it might be that you were so focused on protecting your ex - due to her extreme sensitivity - that you almost 'discounted' her shouting and ranting as somehow 'excusable' given her obvious vulnerability.

And presumably she firmly believed that she had every right to behave in this way - and felt

completely justified in doing so.  And what seems to happen is that faced with an intense relationship with someone who is deeply convinced of the 'rightness' of their behaviour we also start to believe that that behaviour is 'OK'. I certainly experienced this peculiar thing whereby I started to almost see the world through my ex's eyes - I got sucked into his vision of himself and of 'us'.

Gosh that's so difficult!

I still struggle with being told that my ex was abusive - as I don't feel she was.  A mess, yes.  Raged after we broke up, yes.  Tried to hurt me, yes.  Abusive? I'm not sure.

I guess a lot of it depends on perception.  I don't perceive myself as a victim and I don't see her as abusive. 

I know this probably isn't very helpful but try and stay away from labels.

Maybe, her behaviour just isn't ok. xxx

Hi Mango_Flower,

Yes. Not OK is a good way to put it. It is a hard one for sure. Do I see myself as being a victim? I'm not sure. Maybe I should? My T told me that it was strange how I haven't shown any anger at all. I guess all the anger is focused inwards and that is probably the source of my depression.

I find myself in such a strange place. I was with this woman for a very long time. She was in my life for almost 8 years in some form or another. I try to look back and find moments where I was happy with her and to tell you the truth, that is very, very hard to do. I can certainly remember fun times. But I can't really pinpoint them. They are so fleeting. Honestly, the best times we had were phone conversations. Being with her face to face was difficult to say the least. I felt like I had to bury so many feelings when I was around her. I guess the one I buried the most was anger. She would do so many things that would make me so angry but I would always bury it up until the end. This one time, she got super pissed off at me because I was groggy in the morning and didn't know what to do. I remember she was yelling at me to the point where I had to leave the house. This was a normal occurrence so didn't' think much of it. But what stuck out for me was when I was out, she called me to tell me that I needed to take responsibility for the yelling. She told me I had to take responsibility for the her attacking me because I was groggy. I remember hanging up the phone and thinking this wasn't OK. I thought to myself: 'Why are you calling to yell at me because I wasn't taking responsibility for making her yell at me before'. It was nonsensical. But, I did what I always did. I went home and just ignored the whole thing. As did she.

Was that abusive? I don't know. It just seems nuts. That is just one story. One event. If anyone else did that to me and then just apologized, I would brush it off and just chalk it up to her being annoyed at me or something. I wouldn't count it as abusive.

But maybe here is the difference. There wasn't just one or a handful of events. There were hundreds. And over the course of years.

I remember that weekend after the little story I told above, we went on a trip and she wanted to go whitewater kayaking. I am an expert kayaker and she wanted me to take her down a river I had never been down before. I told her I didn't think it was a good idea. She insisted. I told her, OK, but only if you listen to me and do everything that I say (as this was a life and death situation in my mind). She said she would but only if I was nice to her and used a gentle tone. This made my head spin. It was like a double jab. I told her that I was always nice to her but that it didn't really matter because regardless of what she perceived in my tone, she had to listen and do exactly as I told her. She said OK, but only if I was nice to her. And then she told me that she wanted me to treat her as her equal. Now, this really made my head spin. What does that mean? She is now telling me that not only do I not treat her 'nice', but that I was also not treating her as an equal. I then told her that it really didn't matter how I was treating her on the water or what her perceptions of my treatment were. The only thing that was important was that if I told her to do something, that she would do it. This was a matter of life or death. Literally. She was a complete beginner. And I didn't want her to drown. I explained this to her. She responded with 'why can't you just be nice to me?'. I then told her that I wasn't comfortable taking her kayaking. That maybe we could go biking or whitewater rafting instead. She insisted that we go kayaking. And she insisted that I be nice to her. I said no. That this wasn't a question of power between the two of us, this wasn't a question of my being nice or not nice to her. This was a question of life or death. And I didn't want her to drown because of my tone of voice. This turned into a raging match where she started yelling at me. Accusing me of all kinds of things. I literally had to jump out of the moving car. I was so angry. I just wanted to get my bags and run away. I stood outside the car for about 10 minutes. She pleaded with me to get back in. I really, really didn't want to. Here I was, trying to take good care of her, take her kayaking like she wanted, and offered to teach her how. And here she was demanding that I be nice to her. Now, that doesn't seem super weird. But the implication was that I wasn't nice to her. And this is something that she had repeated for about a year. She would always say: 'Why can't you just be nice to me'. And I had told her before to stop saying that because it was really a loaded thing to say and actually pretty mean because it implied I wasn't nice to her. (I was always, alway super nice to her... .  I would buy her presents, took her on trips around the world, took her to the best hotels in the world, the best restaurants, paid for her internships, supported her with anything she wanted to do, and was super duper loving and kind to her).

Ok. I'm rambling. The point being, is this one incident abusive? I don't know. The combination of the two? Maybe. A series of 100s of these kinds of interactions over the course of years? Mabye so.  Maybe that is the key here. After years of this, it wore me down. I would have to continually repress my anger. I would have to continually excuse her. I would have to continually diminish myself to the point where I didn't matter.

I remember one time when I told her I couldn't pay for her internship anymore. That it was too much for her to ask of me and that when I went to visit her where she was doing the internship she wouldn't even have time for me and would just yell at me for not scheduling her time, yell at me for keeping her awake, yell at me for not knowing what fun things to do in town (even though I didn't live there). I remember leaving to go the airport and she was crying (balling her eyes out) and told me her having to quit her internship was the worst thing that had ever happened to her and then she ran off, balling. No, hey... .  thanks for supporting me for 6 months. Nope. Nothing. No, thanks for sticking by me even though I took your money and basically yelled at you for 6 months. Nope. Just running off crying like I took away her favorite toy as punishment.

Now, is that one incident abusive? Again. Maybe not. But years of that. Years. Years and years. That is perhaps what constitutes abuse. That is what has broken me. That is what has caused my self-esteem to plummet. That is why I feel so lost now. After years of this, I no longer became my own person. I was living for her. I was her doormat. I was her object. My feelings didn't matter anymore. I was just a prop. And a source of money. And an ear. And a body. And it never had anything to do with me. It had to do with her.

Does that make sense to anyone?

My ex labeled herself, and was labeled by others, as "intense".  She was able to keep it under wraps in the beginning, the idolization phase, but once we'd gotten into the relationship, she pretty much didn't try anymore.  Inappropriate rage that came out of nowhere was the norm, and when I pressed her for reasons, it was always my fault.  There were really two ways to look at it: one, if I didn't behave the way she wanted she would "punish" me, or two, everything she did was in reaction to something I had done or said; she would never take responsibility.

In any case, punishing someone who isn't behaving the way you want and never taking responsibility for your half of the relationship IS abuse.  Psychological, emotional abuse, no doubt about it.  I was in complete denial for a long time, but once it got painful enough to break through that denial, it became clear I was constantly being abused.  So I left, and i still miss her, but I deserve better, a lot better, and that is unacceptable.

rj,

YES - def. abuse.  Have you read much on different types of abuse?  I read The Verbally Abusive Relationship and it opened my eyes greatly.  Most people will recognize quite easily that anything physical or actual name calling is abuse - it's the other types that are so hard to see & accept.

I would even go so far to say that they KNOW sometimes what they are doing - and it is much more calculated than you think.  That book talks about their different motives BEHIND the behavior and gives a lot of examples.

I know they don't always realize what they are doing and are sometimes working on auto pilot - but make no mistake - they are definitely aware on some level.

I don't buy that people are always aware on some level. I have had to come to terms that I was at time emotionally abusive to my exBPD fiance. Did I realize I was doing this? Heck no. And I feel sick to my stomach about it now and can fully admit all of my wrongs in the relationship, while she refuses to take any blame for her end (she was also emotionally abusive/unstable, an alcoholic, lied, etc.) I've been working through this in therapy. I definitely was NOT aware of what was going on in my head. I was getting beaten down by her drinking and lies and becoming more and more codependent/controlling. It's not always so simple... .  

It's crazy rjh and yes abusive. You were right to decline the kayak experience. Sometimes people are just too mushy. There is a place for do as I say and no bargaining. Period. You were kind enough to offer another experience or activity. You are describing a one sided relationship. I have been there. Any suggestion to someone with BPD is perceived as a criticism. As an attack on their self worth. It's wrong and as you have seen can provoke a violent push back as the BPD feels attacked when actually you were offering protection. Tough deal.

Thanks Lost007,

It is crazy. The kayaking thing is just one example of very many, many examples. At the time, I had no idea what was going on. She kept telling me that she wanted me to 'treat her as an equal'. I had no idea what that even meant. I tried to tell her it would be like me asking her to treat me as an equal if we were to go skydiving together and she was an expert skydiver and I had never done it before. Even that didn't really seem to sink in. I really didn't understand what she was trying to get at. All I know is that what she was telling me was hurtful by implying that I didn't like her, that I wasn't nice to her, and that I didn't treat her as an equal. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was just trying to protect her and didn't want to be in a situation where her life (and mine for that matter) would be in jeopardy.

I think this is just one example. I think there are probably hundreds. I've made a notebook of 50 that I described. I sat down and tried to write them all out to share with my T. I wrote down the last 10 or 15 episodes that happened before I told her to F Off. And those 10 or 15 episodes happened within the last 5 months of the relationship. And, those episodes did not include this kayaking one. New episodes keep popping into my head.

I think the main trouble I had was when something bizarre like this would happen was that I treated her like I would treat a normal person. I would try to talk to them and reason with them and explain to them my side of the picture. And that always seemed to make it worse. She would throw out these non-sensical statements or deny what she said or flip it onto me (i.e. statements like: 'Why can't you just be nice to me?', 'You just don't like me', 'You think I'm a crazy b*tch', and on and on). Nothing ever got resolved because the original conflict would get turned into something more personal and she would lash out at me and accuse me of not loving her or caring about her or being selfish, or whatever.

She would regularly rage at me in the middle of the night. She was the lightest sleeper I have ever met. And super finicky. And we fell into this pattern where either one of us would sleep on the bed while the other slept on the floor on a blow-up mattress. So, I would be on the blow-up mattress 50% of the time (at least). I started to take sleeping pills just so I could fall asleep on it. I would do it to avoid her raging at me in the middle of the night because most of the time where we slept together in the same bed, she would wake me up and ask my why I woke her up. I would usually answer 'I didn't wake you up, go back to bed' to which she would say 'don't tell me what to do', to which I would say 'relax, go back to bed' and then she would start her raging at me yelling ":)on't you ___ing tell me to relax'. And then she would usually storm out of the room. I got into the habit of hiding under bed when she would start on this. And this was after I spent $2500 on a king sized deluxe bed with that fancy foam stuff. She still couldn't sleep beside me. The king sized bed wasn't big enough. Whenever I would bring it up, she would say that I am fidgety sleeper (I'm not) or that we didn't go to bed at the same time (true... .  but whenever I tried to go to bed at the same time as her, her schedule would change so I would just lie in bed for an hour or two waiting for her, and she would still scream at me sometimes in the middle of the night).

I still have trouble seeing this as abusive.

I have at least the same number of crazy episodes. But guess what. They are actually all the same. They all provoke the same response. The BPD feels attacked or criticized. It doesn't really matter that they were not attacked or criticized. That is the point. My stbex would tell me "I can't be tamed". In other words don't tell me what to do. Consequently since she often behaved as a child I was left cleaning up mess after mess after mess. There is some narcissism involved there as well. They feel as if they have a handle on every situation and know more than they know. Perhaps needing help reveals weakness and vulnerability. That can only be shown by them when they are in a rational mode. In my case that was rare. BPD=emotional immaturity. They don't process things the same as we. It's nonsensical. Exhausting trying to figure how to respond to prevent that toxic response. The problem is you and I are slow learners. Healthier folk would have recognized a no win situation right off the bat. It's just a series of tests that you and I will always fail. A series of hurdles they lay that we trip on. There are those who will recognize help for help. Suggestion as asset. A willing man as an ally. Sounds like its just gonna happen with the women we chose.

Yes. It is really hard. I'm about 6 months out... .  2 months NC. I still find myself identifying with her, seeing the world through her eyes. I guess that is what I had to do when in the RS to make it work. I had to discount all her crazy behavior and try to view from her perspective. The only problem is that her perspective never made any sense. There always seemed to be something else driving the behavior. It always seemed like the instances where she would rage at me or start a conflict had nothing to do with the thing that was actually going on. Whenever I prodded that a little bit, she would always blame me or my lack of commitment.

That is such a good point... .  "seeing the world through their eyes". I can't stop hanging on the last things she said to me:  "you dashed me to pieces", "there is no hope left", "only God can help you now", "we can never be together", "I did everything I could", "I tried so hard". It's very tough to not get caught up in that line of thinking, even despite your entire support network telling you this is for the best and that you should never take her back even if she tried.

My exBPDgf was abusive... no doubt, looking back on it. Now when I think back, she was acting (mirroring) when she was nice initially... .  she was revealing some of her true self when she was clingy... and she was 100% real and serious as a hater. Saw her took glee in the suffering of others (my exwife and daughter.)

So... here is the thing, she was diagnosed BPD many years earlier when she was in grad school... but she dismissed the T as a quack (of course), then went to a new one that she likes... and the new one gives her a copy of "Women who love too much" and says "no your not BPD, you are just unstable."

Well, my exBPDgf could be the poster child for BPD... she is like a clone of Jodi Arias... and I don't know whether the new T was only seeing her best behavior, or knew she was BPD and didn't want to alienate her... or was yet another of her lies... and she never went to a new T.

But my pwBPD liked "unstable" over disordered... and would never admit to any fault of any type, particularly not being abusive. According to her I was... .  as I kept doing things that set her off, mostly refusing to trash my exwife or discipline my daughter in the draconian and uncalled for ways she suggested.

If you are questioning which it was... .  I suspect it was abuse, or you would know and not be iffy. I have been in treatment for PTSD after my r/s, and I put up with stuff from her that I have never put up with from anyone... .  and I grew up around a nasty malignant NPD father... .  but he didn't come close to her on vitriol.

What do you honestly think it was?

Hi Charred,

That is a good question. I guess during it I didn't really think of it as abuse. I just saw her behavior as kind of crazy and it honestly scared me to get any closer or make any more commitment to her. It was like a warning sign of what I was really worried about... .  that we would end up having kids together and she would act like this with the kids or act like this towards me in front of the kids. That was my real concern.

Honestly, I don't know how to define abuse. It certainly wasn't OK with me. But I stayed for a very long time. I honestly don't know why I have such a hard time with the term.

Rjh. Yes she would have been that way with the kids. With anyone. There is no telling them no. It just doesn't happen. Have you read any of Shari Schriber's stuff on BPD?  She feels and unfortunately she is accurate that they will bring down the house, the world, the kids, themselves to get what they want. There are no limits in many cases. I've been trying to escape my stbex for years. She has threatened. Cajoled. Abused. Used any and every weapon at her disposal to keep me. Almost a Stockholm syndrome. Like charred, she has recruited friends, therapists to support her view of the world. It's not really comprehensible to try and outthink or outmaneuver them. U can't. Be glad she is leaving u alone. I pray for that mine will.

They are different that us in a few ways... .  not respecting boundaries is one of the tough ones. It didn't matter what she said, she did what she wanted to do, not what she agreed to do, not what I wanted, not what was socially appropriate.  I used to think it was just me... that she only did this stuff to me as some sort of manipulation maybe. Then I heard her brother talking about her ignoring his boundaries, a friend of hers btching about her showing up at a private get together uninvited... and after being told not to come, and it became clear that they don't respect boundaries... .  and it isn't limited to their SO, its a more general thing.

People have long term committed r/s with pwBPD... .  but from what I read ... .  its a rough life, not what I would want, not what most people want. I was changed when around my pwBPD... .  and not for the better, at first I was giddy, later it was more like a dog that had been beaten a lot... and now that the r/s has been over a while, the after effects are still lingering on, self doubt, confusion, emotional turmoil at times. Someone on here referred to an r/s with a pwBPD as being like emotional rape... .  which sounded weird... .  but seems to fit. It wasn't ever right, something was off and it isn't the basis for a good long term relationship. I really feel for people who have kids with a pwBPD before realizing the BPD part... .  and am thankful to be out without having harmed even more people. Kids are great, find the right partner and have them if you like, ... .  but if she is disordered, and you are torn up by her, kids won't make it better... .  they will be in the middle and intensify the pain you get as well.

I didn't want to admit I was being treated abusively... .  by my dream girl, that I had tossed aside my wife of over 20 yrs for... .  but I was, and in hind sight... I was an idiot... .  I admit it now, and am dealing with it. If your young and don't have kids... .  get it behind you, get yourself right, learn from it and go on.

This is your answer. 

There is an unspoken social contract that we all engage in and assume everyone else does too.  If you go into a local grocery store you assume that you will not be yelled at, called names, touched without permission, cajoled, ridiculed or manipulated by either employees or other customers.  Likewise you will not do any of those things to them.

My experience with a BPDgf has shown that on some level she took evidence of being able to erode those conventions (i.e. boundaries) in our relationship as proof of love/commitment.  They were tests to see how far I could bend without breaking.  On some level I believe they know they're "unstable" as it were and they need to find out if that instability is going to be a deal breaker.  So they often try to test that hypothesis. 

We get lost in it for a thousand reasons.  Many have to do with them and their particular "skill set" but there's plenty that has to do with our personal emotional makeup as well.  I've never tolerated violence in my relationships (friendships or intimate ones).  Damn if she didn't hit me on at least 4 different occasions.  Each one should have been the last time yet it went on.  So we lose our boundaries with regards to ourselves in relation to them. 

But it's telling that you recognize the issues with regard to her behaving that way around potential kids.  It's funny how introducing an outside entity (even a hypothetical one) can suddenly give perspective.  If it's not ok for her to treat you in a particular way in front of kids then why is it ok for her to do so in the absence of them?  Early on I allowed myself to be baited into behaving badly as well or in reaction to her.  Once I realized that; I spent the rest of the relationship learning/practicing behaving and reacting to her as if we were in a public venue.  Hands in pockets, not raising voice, no name calling, walking away, etc... .    Funny how all of those logical, mature and responsible reactions actually made her rage more. 

Abuse is being subjected to any behavior you deem inappropriate.  Being manipulated into changing your standards of what is appropriate is also abuse. 

Kahnighit,

That is a really great point. Something I should come back to whenever I'm in doubt. Emotional abuse seems tough for me to pinpoint because she never hit me. I thought she was going to one time, but she didn't. When I brought up that fact, she told me I was ridiculous and that she would never do that. No apology for having scared me that she was going to hit me... .  

The time when I thought about kids was when I was sitting on the couch watching a movie or checking my email or something and she came screeching into the room and started flipping out on me, yelling: "YOU JUST THINK I'M A CRAZY F*CKING B*TCH!". She yelled that over and over again. She was in a complete rage. It totally came out of nowhere because we weren't even fighting or anything before hand. t didn't respond. I just sat there and said no, I don't think that. But, in my mind for some reason, I thought of two kids being in the room witnessing that. And it scared me.

And you are right about responding in a logical manner. I tried that too when I just got fed up. I decided that responding in any way wasn't working. So I would just talk to her in an even voice. Sometimes I would try to laugh it off. I would walk away. Or, as in this case, I would just sit there and respond in a very calm way. And this kind of response made it even worse, way, way worse. She would totally fly off the handle and then go into her room or whatever and cry for hours and hours. I stopped responding to that too. I used to go and hug her and kiss her better. But I stopped doing that. I would just go about my business and let her freak out to herself. I was out of options in terms of responding because I tried everything. Her raging just got worse.

Thanks for the post.

Other than alerting me to any new time my ex has a new' bf' (code for sex) and making sure I know... .  

Or subconsciously leaving a used condom in her trash in the bedroom for me to discover after carefully explaining I am not seeing anyone and would not see her if she were... .  

I didn't find my ex to be abusive... THis sounds really funny to read actually.

So, no, other than little things like that, I was the abusive one.

help!