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Hi all.  Seeking some guidance as my BPD relationship takes a new turn.

Brief background for anyone who hasn't followed this story: I was alone for five years after my really bad marriage ended; I was raising a little girl, working hard, recovering from being submerged in dynamics with another person, and had no time for or interest in dating.  I was happy with my life & felt complete.  But then a little less than two years ago, a man I'd known, worked with and really liked for a long time asked me out.  I said yes, and immediately, he started telling me how incredible it was going to be, how important this was, how amazing I was, how he'd always hoped I was out there somewhere, he'd finally found me ... .  you all know how that goes, and how it feels.  I was so thrilled.  I thought I'd won life's brass ring.

A couple months later he suddenly ended the relationship over something we could have discussed and managed, but he had already decided it was hopeless and though he was devastated, he thought there was no alternative but to shut it down.  I was also devastated.  In retrospect, he was really anxious because we'd been super close, then had been apart, were discussing how we'd make time to be together long-term, I was discussing the possibility of moving to be closer to him about a year down the road -- there was abandonment fear and engulfment fear all wrapped up in a nice package.  But I knew nothing of BPD then and had no way to understand what was happening.

We stayed in touch for a couple months until I found it too painful and asked for NC.  He responded with a strange story in which it was as if I had left him, rather than vice versa, he didn't know why I'd been unwilling to discuss it, he'd been destroyed by this "ordeal," and so on.  We got together, talked, discussed reuniting, but I told him he'd have to work on figuring out why he'd bolted before, because it would destroy our r/s if I were constantly wondering if it would happen again.  He got cold feet then, said his therapist recommended he not resume a r/s at that time.  No problem.  I said I respected that & we could stay in touch while he worked on his issues in therapy.  He said he didn't know why he couldn't stop the inward spiral he felt compelled to follow, even in the face of the most amazing love he'd known.  :'(

Immediately thereafter, he started reaching out to his ex, whom I worked with (!).  When I found out I asked for NC -- it was so painful and felt really disrespectful, as if the problem was that I was the wrong woman, not that he had intimacy problems.  Anyway.  I spent 10 months learning about BPD and processing my intense pain around it all.  Finally decided I could see that everything is a trigger for him, that it was unlikely he'd be able to sustain a romantic r/s under any circumstances.  Somehow that made it feel like I could let go of that hurt and the dream of a romance with him, and finally just be his friend.  So I reach out on that basis, 8 months ago.  (He'd ended his dalliance with my co-worker a few months earlier.)

He welcomed the contact and immediately pulled me very close emotionally.  I was holding steady in my position that we shouldn't be more than friends though, in my own head and heart; and he explained to me that he was trying to "individuate"' and find his self, that always before had been lost whenever he was in a relationship (which was always--he'd never been alone.  He's 50).

There have been many ups and downs, ins and outs in the months since, that I've posted about here. Without deluging you with the details, he has entered some very emotionally intimate territory with me, we've struggled through some hurts and confusion, he's worked hard and so have I not to let go of one another despite the challenges.  I would say we have a genuine and deep friendship at this point.  At the same time, it's become very confusing because he treats me almost as a partner a lot of the time, yet without any obligations that come with partnership (and with no sex and very little overt acknowledgement of my importance in his life -- ironically compared to the idealization stage, it's his actions now that show me I matter to him, not his words).  He does have a very pronounced push-pull pattern.  We get very close, he then distances me, sometimes pretty dramatically (with silence, nothing overtly mean -- he's just off processing, it's clear).  But he comes back.

I've worked hard not to let him be my de facto boyfriend.  He didn't ask to be that and I don't want to put those expectations on the r/s.  I've dated others throughout, though none of those men have attained any particular importance in my life (for excellent reasons) -- certainly nothing like his importance.  He remains one of the most interesting, compelling people I've ever known.  We know each other well at this point.  It's a very valuable relationship to me.

***

So that's the background.  Current situation, as Staying readers may recall, is that about two months ago, again after we'd been very close, he suddenly decided to sell his apartment and then to leave town indefinitely.  He accomplished all that with lightening speed.  I was sad but tried very hard to "love with an open hand," just saying I would miss him.  I struggled on this board with the question of whether to tell him I loved him, had deeper feelings for him, not to try to keep him here, but so he could take that knowledge with him since we wouldn't be seeing each other in person for a long time.  In the end I didn't, because it felt unfair to dump that on him when he couldn't possibly respond in a way that would feel reciprocal.  I tried to show him my love, rather than tell him.  I think I succeeded.  We parted on very warm, affectionate terms.

Interestingly in the weeks leading up to his departure, he was very close with me.  But as soon as he left, he stopped his daily texting about small details and interesting thoughts/experiences ... .  it was as if, once he was gone, he wanted everything to feel very different from being here, including that he wouldn't have daily routine communication with me.  But he did continue with warm email communication.

Before leaving, he had told me he was planning to travel for quite a while, but return to our city after.  Suddenly, about 10 days ago, he announced that he had arrived in a new city & within 24 hours had decided to move there.  He expressed some confusion about why he was doing this ... .  was sharing his feelings about it openly with me, his excitement about a new start, his feeling that he was, as he said, "bringing up the rear of his own life," that he was behaving impulsively and wasn't sure why.

I was super sad about this decision and decided to say something.  I wrote asking, essentially, why he wasn't coming back here ... .  I said he could constantly re-start his life every year (he does make major shifts in job, location, girlfriend, with incredible frequency, this is the latest in a long long long series of sudden dramatic changes) and it would be fascinating and promising, but what happens then?  And I said there were people, including me, who know and love him here.

He has not engaged those questions at all, except to say he decided not to stay in the new city after all, and he's now heading back out on the road.  He's been quiet since telling me this, I suspect because I have pried into very tender areas, he feels very "seen," not very validated, I've asked questions he can't or really doesn't want to answer, and he realizes his choices are hurting me to some degree and feels some degree of guilt.  Yet continuing to change & move is his best strategy for feeling better, and he doesn't want to give it up.

***

So after you've made it all the way through that story, my questions are: how do I carry on in this relationship in a healthy way?  I do NOT have any aspirations to change or save him, and I don't want to torment or invalidate him with legitimate but painful questions or challenges.  I am not trying to hold him accountable for the impact of him being him on my happiness.  I do accept he is the way he is.  I wish it were different but it isn't.  I think our relationship may be the closest he can be to anyone in a quasi-sustained way, and it is valuable to me.

And yet, the past two months I've felt the impulse to be more honest with him than I have in the past, that there is a cost to these choices he makes.  Maybe that is for him to figure out, and I shouldn't feel like I have to point it out.  Yet I've also felt some need to respect or honor our relationship and its importance, to me and, I thought, to both of us, by saying that he will be giving something significant up if he randomly decides to live somewhere else.  I don't need to continue harping on this, and I suppose I will just return to ordinary communication when & if he gets back in touch.  But only validating, and acting like it's of no significance to me whether he stays or goes, felt rotten.  And dishonest.  And like I was somehow not taking him seriously as an equal partner in this thing we've been doing.

It's clear to me now that he cannot or will not answer my questions -- he barely even acknowledges any of what I write in this area, let alone engages it.  But it felt bad not saying anything about this pretty intense spiral of radical change he's embarked on.

I guess in the end my question is how to maintain integrity toward oneself and one's relationship with a pwBPD when their impulsive actions are so damaging to the r/s, yet you acknowledge you cannot change or "save" them?  :)o you just give up entirely on communicating about such things?  Just validate and accept and that's it?

Hey P&C

*Radical Acceptance*  It is what it is, what it isn't, what it could be, what it was, what it wasn't; he is who he is and so are you


His moods and whims could change daily while he's out and about finding himself.  Stay strong and follow your own lead, not his.  Detach from any expectations concerning him.  You can communicate any way you choose to :)  Just don't expect the same in return.  And that's okay!  Be true to yourself and let the rest fall however it will.  It will fall into place as it's meant to and will become clearer as time goes on... .  

Detach and live your life  

Thanks so much Phoebe.  Your guidance is always SO reassuring and enlightening.

There is something about having finally spoken more honestly about the cost that his approach to life inflicts that makes me wonder if I've stepped over a line and tried to be his therapist rather than ... .  whatever I am.  But absolute silence on this subject didn't feel good.  If I were him, even if I couldn't handle it easily or right away, I would want the person in my position to say "hey, this is going to cost you something important, if you care; I still care, don't think I'm indifferent to the potential loss."  But I have SO absorbed the need to not venture into co-dependent rescuing/saving behavior, and also so absorbed that pwBPD including mine are not going to react (initially) well to having their defenses and pain control mechanisms exposed, that it feels scary and risky to actually speak to this.

I personally think you have done beautifully at expressing your wants, needs and opinions with him.  You cant make him respond to it, but at least you felt you did not have to hold anything inside and hurt because of that.  That must have been somewhat satisfying to tell him that.

I do know how you feel tho about wanting to be as close as possible without pushing him to his limits.  Just to have some form of contact.  I think the wish for more would always be there tho, at least for me.  Closing doors opens new ones.     

Perhaps the answer is to disconnect your needs from his reactions. If you need to say something in order to feel good about yourself then you should say it. But if you are saying something hoping for a particular reaction or as a 'fishing expedition' then you need to stop and rethink. So I'd say it's a matter of examining your motivations. Sometimes there are things that just need to be said. You need to know that you put them out there, that you tried your best to be true to yourself and true to your relationship. But you can't beat yourself up if he doesn't respond - that is not your responsibility. He read what you wrote, you did what you needed to do. Perhaps he's still digesting, perhaps he'll absorb it in bits and pieces, or perhaps he'll never comprehend any of it - it doesn't matter. You can't control his reactions so you need to let go of expectation. Don't give up, just make sure what you say is validating for you.

I have a friendship with my ex of a similar nature.

He is in no way ignorant of my feelings and I do not feel dishonest or that I hide my feelings , but sharing my feelings doesn't mean he can meet my needs.  Because he has his own life and his own needs, separate from mine.

These men have attachment issues. It would be a very good thing to explore and individuate outside of a romantic r/s. This is a goal my ex is working on in therapy, too. This is good for him... . it's best he not cling to me in his usual push pull dance, and it's best I not do that dance with him, either.

Yes, I'm fine with staying away from a standard romantic r/s with him -- I think it's a healthy choice for him, I support it 100%, while still participating in what has been a meaningful, intimate emotional connection.

All was going relatively smoothly until he bailed & left town.  That sort of wrenched my heartstrings again because it went outside the bounds of what I thought was in question (the exact definition of our r/s was in question, where it might go was in question, how often we'd communicate or see each other was in question ... . I was OK with all that, and my acceptance helped the dynamic feel healthy & relatively stable).  But I didn't think whether we would ever see each other again was in question, you know?  It makes me wonder what we were doing all this for, if he might just pull the plug & depart permanently at any time.  Because we weren't being "just friends."  We were taking risks and coming through for each other & navigating some tender terrain, and if he was just going to leave, it makes me wonder what it was all for.  When you are in a stated relationship & this happens, it's a break-up.  Now it seems we have an arrangement wherein he can just leave & I am not supposed to even register that as a significant change, because I can have NO expectations ... . it's been jarring how total a rule that turns out to be.

But MaybeSo & others, you seem to be saying: no expectations, see what happens.  I can do that. But I did sort of nose in & ask some questions that were along the lines of "um, what are you doing here exactly? have you considered the consequences?"  They were nice and warm and affirming questions, but they were not very validating, in that I was calling into question this current impulse he has to flee & to maybe stay away.

Yes, I felt right saying what I said. He has been silent now for days since, though, and I do realize my questions probably made him feel bad.  Bad that I am questioning what feels right to him, bad in that the answers are probably unsettling, bad in that he gathers I am dissatisfied with what he's doing.

Should I have just said the equivalent of "OK, well, hope that works out for you?"

Sometimes being a true friends means asking some of the hard questions. You did it with care and concern and your heart was entirely in the right place. No matter how carefully you tread sometimes he will be upset. That is okay. Just make sure you are there for him, full of validation and support, when he gets back in touch again.

But, on top of all of that, are sure that his silence is actually a result of your questions? There may be other factors at play. You're just guessing at this point, right? Stop beating yourself up over hypotheticals.


I don't think so. That wouldn't have been authentic for you. It also wouldn't help him in any way. While you may need to detach from his response (or lack thereof) that doesn't mean you should just write-off everything he says or does either. You have a relationship with him, that involves asking some probing questions sometimes. You aren't judging him, you're simply giving him some food for thought - it's what good friends do. 

P&C, it might be a good idea to roll the thought around in your mind that he might not be coming back.  How would it change things for you if you knew this as an absolute?  Would it change how you feel about him?  Would you be less concerned with how he perceives your communication?  Would it be easier to detach?

Arabella, thank you, that is all super helpful (not to mention validating!)  Yes, I know it would have been easier for him if I'd just said "cool! that sounds great -- new city, new adventures!"  But that doesn't mean it would have been the right thing to do.  It's hard for me sometimes to accept that the harder course -- the one that risks loss and doesn't make everything better -- might be the right course.

Phoebe -- I definitely do think he may not be coming back; in fact I'd give odds that he's not.  And I've accepted that since he first told me he was leaving.  I wasn't trying to dissuade or hold on to him.  But when he left, there was this theory that he was either coming back, or staying in one of a couple of places he had a reason to go for school.  The idea that he would just pick a random new place to start his life over ... . was new.  And unlike the other possibilities, it raises the "um, what ARE you doing?" question quite starkly.

My investment in and attachment to him was stitched back together over the past 7 months, when I thought we were going to be here together indefinitely and were building something kind of cool in a leisurely way without pressure of any kind.  Suddenly that got ripped apart, and I'm not quite sure what place he has in my life now.  He seemed to think his departure wasn't going to change anything for us.  I don't get that, since seeing each other in person was a big part of our connection and something he seemed to place a lot of weight on; but I was prepared to just keep communicating & see what unfolded.  It's this mini-stand off over his blank slate/new start plan that feels like it has changed our dynamic completely.

Hey, great topic.   :)

You seem very concerend about the effect you have on him.  But, the tactics of your communication with him aren't really the issue - I think you do fine there.  You know the tools, have read the lessons.  You expressed your concerns in a calm and gentle way.  Yes, you challenged him to think about his decision, but there is nothing wrong with that.  Sometimes we need to speak our truth - and you did that, and did it the right way.   |iiii

I'm sorry you felt disappointed by his reaction.  The silence from him is hard.  As you know, his reaction is really his issue and says more about him than you.  Even knowing that, it still stings.  


I think the big issue is your expectations and boundaries for this friendship.  You seem to expect more from him somehow.  But you have to keep lowering the bar of your expectations to take what you can get from him - which lately hasn't been very much. This dynamic is what feels a little unhealthy for you.  There doesn't seem to be a bottom to this process.  I am not seeing your limits, your healthy boundaries in this relationship.

At some point you have needs in this friendship too.  How do you feel about a friendship where all you did was provide him validation?  That doesn't sound like something you want.  And yes, risking the loss of the friendship is something that comes with having some boundaries.  This is hard, believe me, I know.

You said:

Now it seems we have an arrangement wherein he can just leave & I am not supposed to even register that as a significant change, because I can have NO expectations ... . it's been jarring how total a rule that turns out to be.

This is what briefcase was referring to.  It's jarring b/c you are following his rule and not being true to yourself.  Unless you let everyone in your life that you have interactions/relationships with totally dictate the rules.  Surely that's not the case?  But I think you are letting him dictate the rules b/c it is easier to continue to be preoccupied with this guy than to let him go and face potentially being alone.  That is really scary.  You said it yourself:

It's hard for me sometimes to accept that the harder course -- the one that risks loss and doesn't make everything better -- might be the right course.

You also said:

It makes me wonder what we were doing all this for, if he might just pull the plug & depart permanently at any time.  Because we weren't being "just friends."  We were taking risks and coming through for each other & navigating some tender terrain, and if he was just going to leave, it makes me wonder what it was all for.

This sounds harsh, but I think he was using you for emotional support.  It seems your value and significance to him was emotional support.  It's cheaper and safer than therapy, but that's basically your function to him and it's unbalanced.  You allowed this to continue under his rules without getting back what you gave for a reason.  Maybe your reason was safety as well?  This is not a heatlhy relationship, even if if you just call it a friendship.  I think it is just two people engaging in a familiar pattern based on each of them fulfilling each other dysfunctional needs.

I know it's hard to hear my opinion, and it is just my opinion.  It comes from a place of love, concern, and stark similarities to you and many other women on this board.  

OK guys (and girls) -- you're asking me some good tough questions.  Let me ask you some in return, trying to make some progress on this.

After I reconnected with this guy, we'd get close, then he'd distance me, and engage in what I'd describe as the non-punitive version of silent treatment.  You know, the kind of withdrawal/distancing where a pwBPD is processing disordered feelings, dealing with dysregulation.  He'd eventually come back, but the distancing and silence was really hard for me (as it is for almost everyone who hasn't gone through the zen training of this board).

I asked here on Staying several times what to do, what this meant, how to react.  I got what seemed to be excellent advice, but maybe it was only excellent advice if I'd already determined to be in the relationship: to just wait.  Let him come to me.  :)on't stick my nose in, don't demand to know why (I sometimes would ask what happened in the beginning but he adroitly would refuse to answer, saying things like "you put me in a tough spot ... . all I can say is I needed to clarify the nature of our r/s", just picked up again.  One time he made a comment about how he behaved like a hummingbird, coming in all intense and urgent, then leaving suddenly, and said if I complained about that with him I might be right; but he didn't actually say he'd change that, and I assured him, again after getting what felt like good advice here, that he could come & go as he pleased.

It did appear that this acceptance of his inability to be steady and stable in his connection with me is what gave us the foundation for him to begin to trust me.

Briefcase, you are calling this "lowering the bar," but isn't it radical acceptance of who he is & what he can do?  And the issue is my expectations, right?  As long as I had none, accepted it for what it was, that's not inherently unhealthy, right?  I was able to do that I think.  It's just that I've found I had a hidden expectation, that he would not randomly abandoning everything he was doing here, including me, and just start over somewhere.  Arabella I believe has that Carly Simon quote as her signature, "you gave away the things you loved/and one of them was me," and when he left and even more, when he said he wasn't coming back, I realized I'd been working with the assumption that this was actually important to him because he acted like it was important to him over time, and I also assumed that because it was important, he would protect it.

Rosanna, when you say he was using me for emotional support ... . I would say he was "using me" for company and companionship and warmth and affection, and I'm not sure how different that is from "love."  Except if it is not reciprocal.  And he did attempt to be present for me and provide emotional support and share things that matter to both of us.  We really really enjoy each other and most of our r/s was spent, not on emotional support except passively, in the sense that being with someone you really like who likes you is emotionally supportive.  Until he left.

While he stayed here, we were working through the kind of hard pockets that occur with someone wBPD, and he was making a serious effort, and pushing himself.  That's why I stayed engaged.  But the leaving seems in tension with that.  I guess you guys are pointing out that I have reached some sort of boundary in this friendship.  Something about "I can't continue to believe in the value of this if you act like you would just as soon start over with another place and other people."

MaybeSo, if you see this (and any others who are writing from a position of "intimate friendship" rather than an avowedly romantic partnership), I'd love to know how you would react if your ex,with whom you had regular, emotionally intimate contact that seemed important to him, suddenly announced he was moving to go explore the world and then that he was randomly settling down in a new city to which he had no connection or particular reason to be attached to.  I feel like it would be help me to understand how others would react to that.

Get in touch with choice. Your choice.

I make choices everyday; some more satisfying than others but when I choose to say yes to something I have a reason for doing so; some needs of mine are getting met. Rarely are ALL needs met with any one choice, and through living I learn to meet needs in new and healthy ways, this is done with making mistakes.  I can also move from a yes to a no. If my needs are less met over time or I feel over time I've made a mistake I might say no or at least modify my yes. This is a choice.

I would caution against the "he's using you for XYZ" frame unless we are willing to examin yourself that way, too... . in what ways we use others, too. Ultimately we all say yes because a need is being met or we think a need will be met.  He is getting some needs met in the

relationship you have said yes to, you said yes to this because it met some of your needs,

too! If the need has become unhealthy, that's for us to decide! We can make a correction!

If the arrangement is no longer satisfying, you are not obligated to it.

The push pull is part of attachment issues.  It would be great if your guy didn't have an attachment disorder but he does. So does mine. It sucks but it's a fact.

This is a choice.

MaybeSo, thank you for this.  I think we cross-posted and yes, this is what I was trying to say.  He cannot presently do a normal romantic r/s, he has an attachment disorder, this is true.  I thought we'd found a way to do something else that was good and healthy though unusual, something where we were both meeting important needs albeit unconventionally.

You're right that it can also be re-evaluated, and it's an ongoing choice.

I would love to know how  you and others think you might handle a similar fact pattern where you were in a viable worthwhile intimate friendship with your ex & then he suddenly left town, maybe never to return, but still wanted to email you and explain all about how he was maybe going to move to X, maybe going to stay in Y ... .

Because of course he is silent now but it's because of my questions and his difficulty in processing them.  It's not like he left and launched into silence -- he has tried to stay in touch and share his thinking.  It's just that what he's thinking of doing, hurts.  And you're right, I can choose to say so (I did) and I can choose to detach.

Radical acceptance is accepting both of you actually - the fact is... . you seem to want something, I honestly don't know what - but you come to this board often asking "what is he doing, thinking, etc"... . he seems to be doing what he wants, this is who he is - radical acceptance is understanding that the dance you are doing is your version of a relationship with him.

Perhaps due to this being written and not spoken to understand nonverbal - your questions seem that you are walking on eggshells with him.  I have many, many friends all over the world and once they move - I don't expect to hear from them weekly or even monthly.

Your relationship has changed, thus your contact has changed - does this seem unreasonable to you?  I am not really sure it falls into a BPD trait because the fact is you both now live in very different worlds and he is likely moving on with his life.  Will you hear from him again, probably so - will it be with the frequency as when you were living in the same city?  Likely not - that is just a fact of when friends move away.

If you miss him - that's normal - but trying to figure him out so that you say or do the right thing, that is walking on eggshells... . radical acceptance now is he has moved and your friendship is going to change.

What is it that you need emotionally specifically from him that you cannot do for yourself or get from another friend?

If you have become emotionally attached to the point you now need to grieve a different version of the relationship with him, what could that look like for you regarding boundaries?

My ex always does stuff that surprises me. Usually as a result of closeness, he will pull away. He hasn't moved but hes done other dramatic things to make space.

It's an attachment disorder, he will need space. If you give him space, usually the need for space diminishes. If I chase or shame him or require him to fix how I feel about it... He usually responds with needing more space. If I take care of myself, he usually doesn't need as much space. But, if he maintained space no matter what... . then, Taking care of myself is a win win anyway... . so it's all good.

I have also come to realize I have my own attachment issues, otherwise I'd be making different choices. Honestly, I love not living with my ex anymore. I can take him in small doses and enjoy his company, but not in close quarters 24/7!  He's very intense. Im much happier having the space we have now. if I wanted something more I'd manifest it... . being with a elusive guy obviously works for me on some level. Right?

Thank you, MaybeSo.  That makes sense.

SB, he wasn't "just a friend."  As Phoebe123 wrote to me a while back, "this is not an ordinary relationship with an ex."  We were basically maintaining a quasi-partnership without sex and without stated expectations, but we were each other's primary reference point, the person with whom we each explored important issues, we were being each other's "person."  Sometimes I think this is the best, most stable kind of r/s pwBPD can build, because it is based on a continuing all-voluntary choice to align, it can accommodate space, it has no expectations.  I think pwBPD can do this perhaps with more integrity than many can in more traditionally constructed romantic partnerships.  But it is not analogous to any normal friendship.

So him choosing to move suddenly is a big rupture, almost like another breakup.  The fact that he didn't regard it that way is also somewhat shocking, though that may be because he intended to maintain close communication while he was away.  I ultimately have engaged in a bit of either "saying my truth" (not walking on eggshells), looked at positively; or shaming behavior, as MaybeSo says, looked at more negatively, about his impulsive thoughts of moving elsewhere.  Because that move IS antithetical to the relationship I thought we were building.

Yes, I do still sometimes need help figuring out what is going on in his mind because often, what the actions of pwBPD would ordinarily mean if done by someone else -- e.g., a week of silence -- is not what they mean by done by our SOs with BPD.  I need help interpreting like others here.  I've learned for example that his silence is often him processing & actually doing well by our r/s, not him not caring, which is the obvious interpretation.

Here though, I am not asking what's going on in his mind.  I was asking whether something important has just happened with his choice to leave, despite his denial that that is the case; and whether my communication about that, questioning his approach of continually restarting, was verging into co-dependent fixing, or just a truth that needed to be stated, or the beginning of a boundary in my own mind.

I guess I resist the idea that I have been "lowering the bar."  I've been figuring out what he can do, and then figuring out if I want to do it.  Until 6 months ago, the answer was "a lot, though it's not an avowedly romantic partnership," and, "yes."  Suddenly though, he's surprised me again, in a way that feels bad, making me realize I had some basic expectations that proved non-viable (that he would stay).  And sorting out how to handle that presents the same quandary I've faced when he withdraws to process something: this feels bad to me but it may just be how he is.  Do I accept it radically, changing my own expectations?  Or do I recognize it as an important boundary?

I don't think those are easy questions for anyone here.

Hi P & C

What I see is that it's unhealthy because he keeps hurting you and you keep taking it. And then trying to find ways to make it all OK.

I have to say that you seem to be doing what I do/ did with my BPDex. That is, making up answers to suit me in my head, a sort of fantasy, a day dream that shifts around very cleverly to fit the facts in order to keep us safe from harm and from hurt. Because the hurt that you may have to face is that the man you love has left because he doesn't care in the same way that you do. I don't say that to hurt you I say that because I think this man is hurting you and you keep letting him but making up acceptable reasons which fit with BPD because you cannot face the pain. I have an amazing capacity to do this and did constantly when I was in the r/s with my ex and following. Once I made a choice to take everything he said as a lie first up it helped me let go, bit by bit. It wasn't all lies.

The thing is we can all spin this any way we need to.

For example my ex can tell me the most amazingly deep, emotional stuff about the two of us; I've posted some of it on these boards. He knows it will keep me hooked AND IT WILL. One time I was feeling low and reached out to him and he offered to come straight up from London where he was visiting his brother. I asked what he was doing there. He said he had decided to spend time with family after a difficult Xmas. I was so impressed- I thought 'Good for you, poor you, off on your own like that, finally you are standing on your own two feet.' Then my fantasy starts to grow- I fill in the gaps. He is working on himself, alone. Great. I don't go any further in my head but I respect him. But the TRUTH is he was down there with his girlfriend, discussing marriage with his brother, weighing up her 'pros and cons'.

I have a huge gap between writing this and how I would feel if my ex were to turn up right now and work his magic on me, so please, please know that I say this from a similar place as you. I was just lucky to uncover some lies which helped me. And something in my nature sent me probing for more. I wanted/ needed to find them.

Your ex has disconnected from you, for now. You haven't disconnected from him because you can't just drop your feelings on a whim. He has done it because he doesn't need it right now, for whatever reason. You can spend a lot of energy working out why he has done that and just doing that will keep you connected, strongly. I still needed it for a long time but I got through and out the other side. YOU CAN TOO. I agree it is a choice.

How can you sustain this friendship? P & C why do you want to?

Some times it's like we have ropes tied to us that connect us to someone else. Who tied us together? Who keeps us tied? How far do the ropes stretch before they may break? Is it up to us to untie them? Are the knots too strong? Does the rope even exist?

This is a new, and shocking to you, dynamic and now you have a choice to make. I wouldn't necessarily call it "lowering the bar" so much as I would call it adjusting your expectations to meet a new reality now that you have more information. Details and analysis aside - what do you WANT to do? What feels good to you? Do you want to remain friends (in this new capacity)? Do you want to go NC? You only have so many options given that you can't make him do anything.

I'm also going to suggest you go back through this thread and read your own responses, P&C - because I think you'll find that you're finding your feet as the thread progresses. Nevermind all of our input, you seem to be getting more confident as you work through the issue. Again, you need to be true only to yourself!

Hi Maria!  I definitely do feel we are running an experiment of taking different approaches to this & seeing how they play out, on roughly the same timeline.  I really appreciate you continuing to share your experience & insights with me.

He keeps hurting me because I keep having expectations, without realizing I am having them, and he keeps not conforming to them.  I keep thinking I know what the solid ground is we're standing on, and it keeps not being solid ground.

But I wouldn't say he is hurting me exactly. He hasn't violated any promises (except in the first breakup).  He just is behaving like a person with an attachment disorder.  I am choosing to have him in my life because I prefer my life with him in it, to without him in it.  He is interesting, smart, knows me, I know him, he likes me, I like him, we have traveled over a lot of territory together by this point and he enriches my life.

But I keep extrapolating from that that it will continue.  And then in various ways, he throws that into doubt (by prolonged silences, which I think I have finally come to terms with but that took a few cycles and a few months), or by this move, or by the decision to re-settle in a new city contrary to his previously announced plan to return here.  (And note that the plan has already changed again & he is back on the road.)

I am just trying to find my feet here.  What is this?  Is this a betrayal (which is what your "he hurts you" paradigm suggests, and what it feels like)?  Yes, if my expectations were reasonable and legitimate; no, if I made a mistake by having expectations, when he never made any promises or deals with me.  If it is a betrayal, I need to draw the appropriate conclusions.  But I've learned on this board that what feels like a betrayal may be us imposing a set of expectations where it is inappropriate to have them.  I've known for over a year that this man likely has BPD and definitely has complex PTSD and/or other attachment disorder(s).  I know his patterns.  Why am I having expectations of continuity?  I know he changes things impulsively to feel better.  Why did this shock me here?

I guess I am trying to figure out whether there is value in an intimate connection with someone who comes and goes so suddenly and with whom I can have no expectations of continuity.  I have protected myself against hurt by not seeking a romantic/sexual r/s with him, knowing that was not a viable expectation at this time.  Must I now protect myself by anticipating that at any moment a trap door could open and this person whom I am so close to, who has asked to be a big part of my life and vice versa, could just disappear again?  I guess so, if I want to be in the r/s.  That's a lot to accept, some of it very painful for me.  Whether I should continue to care & invest under those circumstances is what I'm trying to figure out.

Arabella, thanks so much for this.  Yes, I do now have to adjust my expectations in light of the additional information.  I've been trying all along to feel my way along empirically, see what happened ... . a lot has happened that was rich & good.  But now, there is also this. Not so good.  It is going to have to be incorporated into a new set of expectations about what could happen with him.

And yes, you're right, as the thread continues it is helping me figure out what I think & feel about all of this, which is undoubtedly why a board advisor suggested I start it :)  Very grateful for all your replies so far.

It is impossible to have the intimacy you wish with this man. He is showing you that and you are accepting it. It is incredibly painful and I am so, so sorry. The disorder will not let this man stay attached/ connected to you because he cannot do intimacy. Not in the way you or I can.

I am sure he will be back in time. Do you want to carry on with your life i the mean time and wait for the super high of his return? It could be the choice you make now. But if you make that choice please be clear that you will not be emotionally available for another relationship. Until you detach from this man he will keep a hold on you. He made the choice to leave. You can't get away from that. You just can't beat the disorder. If anybody could you could but it's impossible.

You deserve a two way relationship. This isn't two way. Maybe if you two had kids or were married and had a pay off that way it would be worth the work. But I think you could invest such amazing work into delving deep into you instead of grappling around inside him.

 

Yep- that's better said. That's what hurts though isn't it and that's why I finished off the gaps I didn't know about my pwBPD into somebody else in my head. Because I couldn't take the hurt. I have done it in every single relationship I had until pwBPD. Patientandclear I really do identify with you but that is just my opinion because your story resonates so sharply with mine.

P&C, if the guy I'm seeing were to up and move away, the relationship we 'have' wouldn't be.  I would detach when he told me he had sold his house without a mention of it beforehand.  I would let him know right then that the people I consider to be 'good friends' let me in on pretty major future plans.  It does take a little planning and time to sell a place, even if you're impulsive.  And I'd let him know that I'm a little freaked out by it, because I would be.  I might continue casual email correspondence here and there, after I had settled in my mind what just happened, nothing deep and heavy.  Deep and heavy is inching into his territory, someplace I'd rather not be and somewhere that I'm obviously not welcomed, or else he would have let me know he was moving in the first place, while we were carrying on as more than just friends... .

If he were to email that he decided to move to a brand new area, I'd probably reply something like, 'Huh, wow, that's a switch.  What happened to such and such place?'

Light and detached.  And no cheerleading.  Unless, he was really 'just a friend', which my guy is not.  Doesn't matter if he thought of us as 'just friends'.  What matters are my feelings about it and I'd be bound and determined to get on with it, to let go and get on with my life.


What kind of investment are you considering? 

Brilliant.  You are my hero, Phoebe  :)

There's just one other thing I want to say P & C. I notice that his silences usually end just as your pain elevates to a point of considering how sustainable this whole thing is. It's similar to how pwBPDs get in touch just when NC starts to work for people and I can't explain it other than to say the connection is very strong.

What this means though is that it is very possible he will contact you shortly and everything will be explained away and he will pull you close again. Because he doesn't want to fully break the connection either. But what this does for both of you is very powerful intermittent reinforcement. Please just be aware that this is happening. Not only does it stop the pain it feels even better than if the pain wasn't there. I do believe it is the release of endorphins that gives a reassuring euphoria that we need, as addicts. It is an amazing feeling when that contact comes. I have felt it many times and i am sure i will feel it again. Please be careful with yourself.

P&C, I totally agree with Phoebe!

At some point in time, we just have to be able to say what we think, and really be who we truly are! 


What I truly am (at times?), "is a wind-sucking-OMG I hope this doesn't backfire-but I gotta say this or bust-who does she think she is?-yeah, I know she's BPD-dear Lord I did/said it----wait for it, wait for it... . whew, did it---kaboom/no kaboom---let's move forward" kinda gal 

Seriously, in my unship with my pwBPD, I have never hidden how I really feel, she knows it, I've not changed in my position.  What I have changed, is the way I express it to her, in what I feel is a way she can handle it without too much pressure.  We have ups and downs, she does things that hurt me, although not purposely.  I am sure I do things that peeve her as well, again, not on purpose, it's just life.   

Even though it may cause me anxiety, I let her know when she does because I cannot allow her to walk all over me. She lets me know as well and we work it out, the biggest thing is I don't over-personalize her crap like I used to before I was "in the know", if you will.

I so want for you to find some balance here with all of this.  I also want for your heart to not hurt too.

 

Patientandclear,

Your judgement is good, I think. I look at your approach and hope that maybe I could achieve the same level of friendship with my BPDex.

Be more honest? Maybe. But be clear that you are just expressing your feelings... . Not asking for him to change. And not asking for him to respond.

But again... .   You have gotten this far with your approach. Trust your thoughtful instincts.

Waitaminute -- I so appreciate this.  It's hard not to second-guess oneself when one's best instincts about what is right result in ... . this.  Utter silence.  It's been a week since I wrote him last.  He has not been heard from.  This is not unprecedented, he's come back from gaps like this maybe 4-5 times since we reconnected, having done some processing, sometimes able to identify what was bothering him albeit a little stiffly, sometimes just ignoring that he ever went away.

Somehow this feels different, but each time it happens, I feel this way -- that he's gone for good, that maybe I mishandled it, that all the care we've taken to get this far has been squandered.

I'm feeling that way again, but when I retrace my steps, I keep getting to the same place: he was the one who left.  I told him I'd really miss him but I let him go without drama or any feeling I was trying to hold on to him.  When he announced he was not coming back (though who knows where that stands now), I couldn't possibly have acted indifferent to that without being dishonest.  I tried to make clear I was not judging his choice but asking essentially "are you considering what you'd be giving up?"  The alternatives were either to pretend none of this mattered, and proceed with a greatly reduced version of our prior r/s; or to just end my investment in the relationship with him without saying anything.  Neither of those would feel appropriate at all.

I'm back to how strange it is to be in a situation where the best thing you can do results in this crappy outcome.  The truth is, it isn't at an "end" yet and maybe what happens next will be better because of this communication.  But right now it feels very empty and sad and like everything we did just evaporated like water in the desert.  I guess that's the universe's cue to me to "detach from the outcome."  I'm trying ... .

MaybeSo, your edit of Maria's post is so wise. "It's unhealthy because  he keeps being who he is and you keep expecting him to be someone else."  It really is true that this is the source of my pain -- though the problem is, I keep thinking I know who he is and accept that, & then it turns out I didn't actually know the full dimensions of who he is and the degree of emotional destruction and abandonment he is capable of.  Clearly, I need to just make NO assumptions about that if we remain involved in this ... . whatever it is/was.

P & C,

My BPDex used to just go without warning. I asked if she would tell me "i need space". She now usually does.

And when she returns, I say "space is always good to us".

Because it is. But is is hard when we get ourselves into a waiting mode. Seems like the end. But its not... . At least it's not the end of friendship.

Sometimes when we work so hard on our side of the equation, we develop some hidden hopes and expectations that the other person will react a certain way to all our effort.  And when the other person doesn't meet those expectations it can be tempting to try to own the responsibility for the disappointing outcome.  

When that happens, we can veer into trying to ferret out the "cause and effect" of the disappointing result - usually with our actions considered the "cause" and their actions considered the "effect."  

But, I don't think it really works that way.  In general, I think we have a much more limited ability to influence the thoughts and actions of other people than we sometimes want to give ourselves credit for.  And for pwBPD, I think we have even less influence.

As far as "knowing him" - he doesn't really know himself, that's partly why he's out on the road, isn't it?  There may not be a stable "him" to really know right now.    

   

What is you feel every time?  What you stated was a set of thoughts not your feelings.  And If you feel the same every time, what is the "this" that feels different this time?

Why does this keep happening?  It goes way beyond the cause and effect thing that briefcase is referring to.

What compells you to stay engaged?

What is your "little girl" secret wish of how things could be?

Who does he represent to that "little girl" part of you?

Start talking and listening to that little girl.

Rosanna, I've thought a ton & worked a lot in therapy on what it is about this man & our r/s that has such a grip on me. I don't actually think this is a little girl issue in my case. I think the abandonment wound I'm trying to heal is one that he himself inflicted, that I experienced as trauma because it happened in the midst of what I felt and thought to be a r/s of safety, security & deep love. Unlike the demise of some BPD relationships, ours ended suddenly with NO precursors or warning. No raging, withdrawing, jealousy, weirdness (in retrospect I can see signs of his anxiety that he did a good job of concealing/submerging, but that was it).

I am trying to make the best of what happened and salvage what remains of what we had. I thought he was, too.  I've become aware of & increasingly kept in check a post-breakup impulse to perform at a high level so he will love me again. I guess I don't always understand the questions about "why do you want this" or "what are you getting out of this" ... . I came to care genuinely for this person. It turned out he can't endure sustained intimacy so we are no longer lovers. If we can find a healthy, reciprocal was to maintain an close friendship, I want to, because that maybe be the best we can do & because I care about & enjoy him.  The trouble is that I do develop expectations based on how we're interacting & those tend to prove false over time.

'The trouble is that I do develop expectations based on how we're interacting & those tend to prove false over time.'

Do you see any link, any pattern, between this r/s and your previous significant relationships?

My MO has been to fill in the gaps in a r/s with my own fantasy. The fantasy is based absolutely on evidence I can see before me- I can't tell that's what I'm doing at the time. It's only later, when I'm disappointed by the crumbling facade I am left holding (or not holding) that I can see what an amazing job I've done.

My pwBPD was/is very good at leaving things unsaid, hinting, suggesting, answering questions with questions. It fed right into my ability to feed right off that with my 'finding answers' thinking. I realised a few months back that it was OK to pin him down on stuff and it was the only way to get anything concrete. It didn't actually hurt him at all, asking him specific questions, and asking him more if he was cloudy with the answer. It hurt me not doing so.

I see this. The chaos that a pwBPD can create wrecks havoc with the nervous system and psyche. So, for me, I think it's a desperate need to feel like I have some control. It's an illusion though. And every time the illusion shatters I'm upset all over again - as if it were the first time. It's like being slapped in the face with just how powerless I really am. Could this be part of what's happening with you that has you so shaken up?

Yes, very much so.  It is shocking to me that all this effort and sincerity and care, which he seemed to really welcome and value (and return), was seemingly for nothing.  Maybe this is the last time it will shock me.

MaybeSo and Phoebe and others who have reconstituted an unconventional r/s with your exes after repeated abandonments & betrayals -- how do you have it in you to continue to care?  I get that the conditions under which you care keep you emotionally safe.  But how do you maintain or recover your warmth toward these men after experiencing that same flattening betrayal we all have?

I suspect the answer is really, deeply understanding that they are who they are and giving up past expectations to the contrary.  Where I stand right now, though, the good feelings I had for him before this latest abandonment have sustained a lot of damage.

How I'm able to maintain warmth towards my friend is because he shows warmth towards me continuously.  I'm not afraid to state my needs and so far he's been able to meet them.  Sure he still displays BPD traits, certain holidays trigger him, he distances after being close, he's distant toward my friends and there's weird family stuff going on (on both of our sides); I can live with this without emotional upset and upheaval.  I know this and accept these things about him, so I'm not shocked when they occur.  Let down a little, perhaps?  But I don't have grandiose visions anymore of having the 'perfect love and life together' if only... .   There is no such thing.  Life can be complicated and I have lots of issues of my own that need sorting through.

Getting and keeping in touch with my issues/my feelings has been the turning point for our relationship.

I don't look at things he's does as a 'betrayals' to me, but how am I betraying myself?  Kind of like the saying, 'If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything'.

P&C, like I said before, if the guy I'm seeing up and moved away, we wouldn't have the relationship we have; I mean, it's just the way it goes.  Our relationship consists of a lot of personal contact.  We see each other a lot.  I would expect him (or anyone!) to tell me that he's planning on moving and if he didn't, then dropped a bombshell like that on me, I wouldn't listen to his 'excuses' about how he's surprised his place sold as fast as it did.  I wouldn't use BPD as an excuse for shoddy behavior.  On a certain level I'd understand that yes, he obviously has really deep issues, but those issues end with him, I wouldn't take them on and try to continue forward in a way that suits him.  Screw him at that point lol  Our relationship would have a serious disconnect for very good reasons.  He's no longer here!  And he didn't have the decency to let me know he wasn't going to be (my boundary, my value).  I wouldn't believe for a minute that he was thinking about selling his place one night, put it up for sale the next morning and it sold in a week.  Surprise!  Nope, doesn't fly with me.  And it especially makes me leery as he stated that 'you're naive' and that 'he's just a jerk', right around this time


What is it that you find so compelling and love about a person who makes major shifts in job, location and girlfriend, with incredible frequency?  What kind of foundation is this to base love on?


This is good!  Might not feel that way, but it sounds like you're getting in touch with your true feelings.  Listen to them |iiii

I'm following along with this and learning from it as well. 

P&C could it possibly be accepting our own normal emotions in a relationship evolve to more attachment as a natural part of who we are?  And trying to change our expectations so as to accept them for who they are comes at a cost to our own innate needs and natural flow in a relationship?  If we are as much people who can allow themselves to emotionally attach, as a detachment disorder is someone who cannot; do we not have to honor both?  I'm wondering if that is our real task in all this.  And even as we go through it and let go of outcomes, we cannot forget ourselves and our needs, and try to shut down or alter our own natural progression in becoming emotionally closer (and vulnerable) because they are unable to form healthy attachments.   If it is a part of who we are, and if we consider it as a healthy thing, how can we deny accepting ourselves being ourselves at least as much as we accept their disorder and who they are?  Is that what we mean by detaching? I think sometimes we bargain with ourselves until we cannot any longer.  I'm sorting through it all too.

And if you are trying to adjust for him, how much of it is trying to change or compromise how your own self naturally evolves in a relationship of any intimate kind, and what your own nature is as a person?  And at what cost?

Just my thoughts.   I feel like I'm coming out of body of water that was suffocating my soul, but at times warming and comforting to my skin.  I'm starting to breath again.  It's up and down, but I keep coming back to not sacrificing who I am as well for the sake of continuing.   It hurts like all hell to let go, and I can't even process now what and if there will ever be between us again.  I have decided I can't put any more of myself into this thing unless he can care enough about my basic needs or boundaries so I don't feel compromised all the time.

Pheobe what you said resonated with me so much too.  I'm at the point of figuring out I've got to accept me and who I am, and I'm not sure how much of that can truly fit with him now. And my own situation involves geographical distance at times and has continued now for almost 3 years.

Forgive me P&C if it seems I'm evaluating it from a different place or simplifying or making assumptions, in the end to me it all seems to lead back to the same basic truths.  I've seen so much caring and depth in your words.  Accepting all this is so very hard to do at times. I'm so sorry you are hurting again.   

I have to agree with 123Pheobe.  I have really had to give-up my own grandiose notions about having perfect love, special love etc., Did you know that a preoccupation with the idea of perfect love is one of the criteria for NPD?  I'm not saying I'm NPD, what I am saying is that I have moved away from a total focus on what my ex  (or any man) is doing and constant analysis of him in the hopes that he will change or make me happy by learning to have a certain kind of relationship with me... .   and I've re-arranged it so that my focus is on me and what makes me happy and fulfilled, ex or no ex. 

I also have to keep getting in touch with my issues and my feelings, and managing myself and my own life... .   NOT HIM. 

My ex has some really good qualities and he isn't a very stable person romantically.  So I don't expect stability from him.  I provide my own and I get it from others who can, too.    Why would I love him less as a person?  He's not evil, he just doens't meet all my romantic dreams.  I'm over it.  That doesn't mean I feel cynical, either.   I am just much more interested in the ways I may betray myself, and I'm much less interested in whatever antics another person is up to.

My happiness and peace of mind is MY JOB, no one elses.  He is not my prince, my knight in shining armour, he is not going to rescue me, or make me whole,  we aren't special or perfect, he is not going to give meaning to my life or make me whole... .   or love me out of my own issues.   I choose to accept him as he is.  I don't suffer anymore because I'm not in that space of waiting for him to change into my ideal mate.  He is who he is. That shift from personalizing what others do (narcissism 'lite' has made a huge difference in my thought processes and how I look at things.  I like my life when he's around, I like my life when he's not.  I can be sad or miss him, but I do not abandon myself the way I use to.   It's not his job to fix me, nor I him.  If I'm not happy, it's not because of his presence or lack of presence.  It's my life, it's my responsibility to make it meangingful and to manage my own disapointment and sadness or greif... .   in or out of any relationship.  When I look to him to save me, when I look at him and think "If only he'd do XYZ, THEN I':) BE XYZ"... .   That's my own self-abandonment right there because that is NOT TRUE... .   I do not need him to be happy.  That's my job. 

I would add also, that this shift was a very long process during a 5 year r/s... .   culminating in a year of mostly NC that was all about grieving.  So, I don't want to make it sound as though this was easy or just an intellectual process.  It wasn't. 

Thanks so much you guys. I admire and respect your approaches very much.

After thinking more about this situation, there are two reasons I can't get comfortable with where I am.

The first is about the limits of radical acceptance.  This is sort of what Seashells was writing about three posts up, I think.

My ex and I do/did best together when I don't ask anything from him except what he offers and extends to me (actually, he has asked me to initiate things, and assured me I don't need to self-censor & can share any reaction I have to what he tells me; but when I do, it doesn't usually go well).  Yet when he radically changes what he's offering and asking for with no warning, and apparently not because of anything that happened between us, it hurts me, and just accepting that without a word, and adjusting expectations downward accordingly without a word, hurts too, and feels dishonest somehow toward him, me and our r/s.  How can one not be hurt by such shifts?

To be concrete: before he moved, he would schedule getting together every 10-14 days.  In between he'd text or email most days with trivial details or important issues, the kinds of observations and information you really only share with a partner.  He was like my undeclared partner, I suppose is the best description.  We'd plan for getting together with an agenda of stuff we both wanted to talk about -- fun, important, interesting stuff to both of us.  We traded things to read and discuss, etc.  Afterwards each time he'd text immediately to set up the next time, so there was no uncertainty about whether or when we would continue.

Obviously, when he suddenly moved, all of this was going to change.  Yet he had been the one who seemed so eager to maintain this rhythm and pace of communication.  Then suddenly it shifted, with no acknowledgement that it was even a change.  How can I invest the energy and enthusiasm required to do that with someone, and then be indifferent to whether it continues?  How do you radically accept that?

Which connects to my second reason for discomfort: the line between speaking one's truth and showing that we care and are not indifferent; and co-dependent saving/fixing.

As a former co-dependent fixer I have worked SO hard with this man not to be that.  I have all kinds of ideas about what happens in his intimate relationships, including ours, but I haven't even tried to discuss that with him other than very general thoughts at the time of our breakup and when we decided not to get back together as lovers, at least for the time being. Since we reconnected as friends, I have stayed away from this topic.  I've been supportive and interested in his various ideas about what he might do, even about where he might move for school/professional development; sad as that made me, I understood why it would be important to him to explore that; but I haven't tried to stick my nose into his decision-making.

Until he just sort of blew everything in his life up in a month's time, and sold his place and moved and decided he'd move elsewhere sort of at random, seemingly just because it wasn't here, it was new and a change.  And that somehow crossed a line for me where I needed to say "do you know why you're doing this? because it comes at a cost, including the loss of something important between us."  And that is practically all I said, but it was enough to send him into angry/threatened/invaded/challenged/seen-too-clearly/questioned-too-pointedly silence for the past 10 days, and, for all I know, forever.  (It's kind of a double whammy cocktail for him because I both stated something that has gone unstated between us -- ever since we have stopped speaking in terms of "we're in love," we have not been explicit about the significance of what goes on between us, even though objectively there has been enormous emotional investment by both of us -- and then said that he is risking or not doing a good job of safeguarding this thing that we haven't acknowledged doing together.  And I'm questioning his most reliable defense/self-protection mechanism, which is change or fleeing.  I guess it's a triple whammy.)

I keep coming back to this in many posts on this board.  I totally get the radical acceptance approach (I love how Phoebe framed it: "it is what it is, what it isn't, what it was, what it wasn't, what it could be".  Not expecting him to be someone he isn't.  However ... .   however.  He isn't very happy.  He talks with me about that, sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly.  He says portenous things like "it feels like all of life is about coming to terms with loss."  

I have ideas about why he isn't happy.  He keeps destroying things that have value and wondering why his hands are empty.  But when I oh-so-slightly speak my truth about all of this when he's gotten to a fairly extreme degree of impulsiveness (sell house/leave town/decide to move to new town/decide not to move to new town), is that cutting against accepting who he is?  Is it stepping into co-dependent saving -- just to ask questions that make him uncomfortable, like "do you know why you left here?" and, essentially, "what are you looking for?"

The costs of what I said appear pretty high.  He's gone completely silent.  I feel OK about that if this was a necessary instance of me speaking my truth, being myself, standing up for the essential bond between us.  But was it that, or was it my need to fix him?  If so, I hate paying such a high price for slipping across that line, a place I don't want to go.  I don't think I was trying to fix him -- I think I was trying to speak up for our relationship and registering that something is lost when he does this, something not easily recovered.  This is why I asked how the rest of you can just let intense push-pull behavior go without it eventually damaging the good feelings you have for your SO.  If I could have just let it go, he's still be writing me lovely emails and we'd perhaps be growing closer, not plunged into silence.  So when should one speak and say hey dude, What the heck?  Aren't we supposed to do that for people we care for?

If I could have just let it go, he's still be writing me lovely emails and we'd perhaps be growing closer, not plunged into silence.  So when should one speak and say hey dude, What the heck?  Aren't we supposed to do that for people we care for?

You'll never be growing closer because he cannot grow closer. Because he has an attachment disorder that will ALWAYS prevent him achieving true intimacy. Nothing you did or said or say or do would have achieved the outcome of growing closer. I think that is why you are finding this so hard, because the promise is there, so, so close but it is always just that little bit out of reach. That is how BPD works. Intimacy is snatched away just as you breathe it in.

I see from my perspective that you were doing was holding onto his presence by not rocking the boat. By following his lead so much that you weren't able to truly reveal your feelings. As soon as you did just a touch of that he is gone. You put an expectation on him, that he would explain to you why he is doing something. Because true friendship and true intimacy does include expectation of that sort. Real friendship means truly growing closer by truly sharing your feelings. This isn't possible with this man because of the disorder.  I'm so sorry but there isn't anything else you can do except let go. Something is stopping you from letting go of the belief that you can have an intimate connection with him

In my opinion, from the outside (and I fully appreciate there are others who have stayed more than me but I do feel that I managed to detach from my ex while sustaining some sort of friendship) I believe that is the belief that you need to focus on rather than how you have to behave to keep a connection with him.

That is super insightful Maria--thank you.

The last time I asked him to explain what he was doing with us, things got really funky & mysterious.  This was last fall when we were doing great, so close ... .   and then he got all distant for a couple of weeks, then announced in a really curt way, totally unlike our other communication, that he only wanted to be friends (I had suggested nothing else).  This was so hurtful, out of the blue, when I had accepted we were only friends, come back into contact solely on that basis, not remotely intimated anything else ... .   then to have him wallop me with this reminder.  My first feeling was defensive and hurt -- sort of "yeah, I already got that memo, I know."  But with a little time, I responded differently, saying I had no other expectation & at this point wasn't open to anything else, because I hadn't heard anything from him that would mean anything had changed ... .   but asking what had prompted this need for clarification, and saying I'd need to pull way back if he was confused, so we'd be really clear what was going on.

We went back and forth a few times with him not answering my questions about what was going on, but reiterating that he just wanted to go back to how things had been, and he didn't want us to be less open with each other; and me saying maybe, but first, I needed to understand what prompted this weird reaction, since how can I be open with you if I don't know what caused you to react like this?  And then him saying it wasn't anything between us that caused this, and anyway, can we just go back to what we were doing? And me saying hey, were you seeing someone else? or did you hear from someone that I was really broken up about what happened with us last year?  because if it's those things, we'll be fine, but tell me what it was ... .   around and around.

He didn't answer my final email where I threw out those possible explanations (was he seeing someone, etc.) for two weeks, & I almost threw in the towel.  Finally I sent one last "is this where you want to leave it? BTW you don't have to answer my questions if you can't or don't want to" message that let him off the hook & gave him an easy way back in.  He happily & warmly accepted & we were off the the races again, but interestingly, he claimed he HAD answered that email, but his answer got stuck in his "drafts" folder and never sent.  After he told me that, he never produced & forwarded the email, so the questions were never answered.  I still don't know what he'd say about why he had that sudden pull-back and need to reiterate that we were friends-only.  (I have since ruled out on my own that he was seeing anyone, and pretty much decided based on all that was going on with us that this was projection -- he wanted more, that triggered bad feelings, he projected the desire onto me so he could reject it, but then couldn't explain how that made any sense, so never answered any request for an explanation.)

Anyway, Maria, you are right -- that did train me to keep the r/s going by not rocking the boat, not asking "why?" questions, not asking that he explain his comings and goings, not asking for any acknowledgement of what we were doing.  Now that it matters, now that I asked again, that doesn't work for him.  And you're right, being able to discuss such things IS a part of closeness and intimacy.

You ask why I have such a hard time accepting that he is not capable of intimacy.  I guess because we've now spent a long time right at the threshold, and it did seem like we were going to sustain it, with a strange balance of closeness and denying that we were close.  As my friend said, "he can only be intimate with you while denying that it is happening."  I could deal with that.  But I can't, it seems, just accept it when he breaks the unstated terms of this thing we were doing and pretends nothing significant happened.  It feels like a weird kind of gaslighting.  "What, you & me? Nothing to see there.  :)on't know what you're talking about."  I know that's not true (and that's why I've reacted badly to some comments on the boards about "obviously he doesn't have the same feelings for you that you have about him," because that's his formal position, but that isn't how he's acted, and I have to attest to what I know is the truth about what really happened between us, even when he is denying it).  So I guess I was running this experiment to see if we could sort of sneak up on intimacy around the back.

It's not going so well right now ... .  

It's too hard isn't it? My pwBPD could do intimacy in a way. In fact I think the awful truth is that we were closer than I have been to anybody at times. And it was heavenly, truly. But then he shrank from it- just as we got there he would shrink away, flee. He described it as feeling claustrophobic. Or a fear of commitment. He also asked me after the final push why he had to keep on running. He wanted me to fix it. He wanted me to make him stay.

This disorder is just so impossible. It isn't fair. It isn't that he doesn't care. I believe they do care; its just that the disorder pulls the care just at the point of it tipping into normal intimacy.

There's nothing to say to make it feel better. But you are such an insightful sensitive woman. I would love to see you turn the insightfulness toward you and away from him. 

Maria -- he said he wanted you to make him stay; but here I am, playing out what happens when you try that.  Then you can be in the persecutor's role of trying to control him, standing in the way of his freedom & self-realization.

My ex said after he left me that he always thought we would talk.  Except that he always refused to talk, until I gave up.  Then it's not like he told me he wanted to talk, I was just supposed to chase and, yes, I suppose, "make him stay." But so long as I was trying to persuade him to stay, he was in adamant push mode.  They want you to do the thing you didn't actually do, I think is the trick, because that explains why it didn't work out.

Except, when you do it, then you're pushing them. And when they decide that doesn't work it just changes again.   Honestly.  

I'm going through it right now.   Right now he's bombarding me with texts.  I need space to think and a breather, he has no respect for me saying I needed space right now, and just keeps badgering me with texts until I feel I have to be rude to stop it.  

Last week I couldn't get him to talk to me about why he was distancing me and he'd blow up when I tried.   I keep trying to validate and use SET and now I'm just cutting it off and not responding.  It wears one down. He sent me some of the most rude vile texts this week end I've ever received, telling me he hates me.  Then a day later he's sad and it's like nothing ever happened.  (to him it isn't anything, but to me it IS on the receiving end).  Hasn't even occurred to him to apologize.  

I HATE this, I've started to try to enforce boundaries and I'm getting awful push back while he's trying to maintain control.  

P&C  It's always hard when they aren't around; it seems a good balance that lasts is very hard.  I keep questioning my commitment to this, I care about him, but I can't seem to get a handle on balance either.   :'(

I think the only balance is in what Maybeso writes. In pulling right back and detaching from them. We can't expect anything from them in terms of our own needs.

What helps me is to remember my ex isn't thinking of me the way I was thinking of him ( I say was because I don't think of him so much now. This period of NC is just me getting on with my life. It doesn't hurt). What is incredibly difficult for us is to get that I think. Because they are good at convincing us they do when they see us and they feel whatever they feel at that moment ( huge love for us).

I don't want horrible texts from somebody ever again. Ever again. I never want that horrible feeling in my stomach, scared to pick my phone up. I will never give my pwBPD my mobile number because of that. He thinks that's unfair of me. Well he will just have to deal with that. He had other ways of contacting me. He wanted my mobile number and couldn't bear that I didn't give in to him. He even said ' I won't abuse it'. He knows he abuses.

I also don't want to put up with silence from someone I care and worry about. My pwBPD was suicidal at times and I lived through a suicide attempt with him. Slept with him through the nightmares, was by his side through all of it. He was quite happy to sleep with another woman later but ask me to still watch for his mood dipping. No thanks, how on earth would that work?

This is a serious mental illness. I have my own issues and I need to look after myself and my family. I never again want to focus on somebody else's health to the detriment of my own. Especially when whatever I do it makes no difference in the end. Yes the tools work and I could have chosen a relationship with this man but I don't choose that. I didn't want that. I made the choice to try and be his friend because I was sure that he needed me and I loved his company and didn't like being alone. I missed him and him adoring me. But it was mainly false. He just wanted me to meet his needs because I happened to meet more of them than others people did. I was very aware I would have been living on borrowed time of somebody else coming along who met his needs better.

Look after yourselves P & C and Seashells. Your pwBPD are capable of looking after themselves. You don't have to live with pain.

P&C,  not that I think this would change anything, as he has BPD, a serious emotional disorder.

The only thing we can do is speak our truth and not betray ourselves.

You were wondering if you had stepped into 'codependent territory' and I believe you did. 

There's a difference between telling someone what 'they're doing, what they're losing' (codependent territory) and what we're losing and how we feel about it (healthy detachment).

BPDx - "I'm moving to a brand new area!"

P&C - "Why aren't you coming back here?  You can constantly re-start your life every year and it would be fascinating and promising, but what happens then? There are people, including me, who know and love you here."

"I was hoping you'd come back here.  I remember the conversation we had where you said that a lot of life is coming to terms with loss.  This is one of those times, for me."

Or something to that effect. 

Getting in touch with ourselves and being able to speak our truth with no fear

   

Don't ask questions.

Yeah... . my approach too. It's one she taught me well. But if I don't ask her how she is when we chat, she says "you don't even ask me how I am!"

Like so many things... .   Don't expect reason and logic.

I'm not trying to re-establish a rs with her. If I could, I would try for what patientandclear has tried. It's the best I could hope for.

P&C,  I believe they value friendship so I think your BPDex will try to get close again. Your attempt at friendship is amazing. But I read in your posts that it takes its toll. How can we put so much care into our effort to remain even friends when in return we receive a full helping of BPD pain? Why do we even try? :) I know the answer.

P&c,

Codependence isn't love, it's addiction.

The amount of focus you have on him and what he is and isn't doing, or what you should or shouldn't say, cause it may make the difference in getting sweet emails or not... .

Isn't that kind of like being hyper alert and willing to do anything as long as you get your fix?

Im going to suggest that what you feel is love for him is mixed in with a lot of codependence.

When I'm overly focused on how best to avoid or extract something from someone it's not

love. It's emotional dependence. What makes me walk on eggshells and feeling anxious is withdrawal symptoms and my anger at my ex for forcing withdrawal symptoms when he goes quiet. But withdrawal is needed; loving detachment is needed.

Love yourself first. Respect yourself, get in touch with your truth, meet your own needs. Do that and share honestly about how you feel and what your needs are; it's not his job to fix it, it's yours. When you do that, you will detach with love. And the conversations you have will be authentic and honest, like the one phoebe suggested above, where you own your feelings no matter what his response and without the need to control for his responses or

his actions. That's intimacy. Codependent arrangements aren't intimacy.

Phoebe (& MaybeSo), thanks.  That is my instinct also -- that with those questions, I stepped over some important line into fixing/saving.  The very thing he's asked me not to do & that I promised him & myself I would not do.  Until then, sad as his departure made me, I'd stuck to "I will miss you" and "yes, right now it feels like all of life is loss -- for me, because it sounds like you're leaving."  (I said those words almost verbatim actually.)  All this time, almost two years, I have refrained from sticking my nose in his business, and that is why we have gained the intimacy we have, I think.

I feel pretty certain that for him, I invaded his private territory with these questions.  He isn't sure what he's doing or why, but he doesn't want me shining a spotlight on those questions.  Our r/s works when I accept him for who he is, he can share what he is really feeling without feeling like he is going to be grilled about why he's so weird or dysfunctional.  I was, for a long time, a fairly safe space for him to be him.

But I'm still confused, if you can bear with me.  MaybeSo, you say I should be less concerned about the impact on him & his response to me.  I finally asked these damn questions because was feeling some instinct to, I don't know, protest the cost to us of his choices, at long last.  All this time, I haven't done that, and it was starting to feel inauthentic to just act like ok, that's a valid choice.  When someone we love is careening around smashing up things in their life, even if we don't try to make it better for them, don't we at least say "hey, I notice you're smashing things you care about, what is that about?"

I'm trying to understand whether my questions were an example of my saying what I needed to say & now I need to detach with love from his response or lack thereof.  Or were they me stepping over the line into co-dependence, as you both say; and if so, do I need to correct that?  Should I apologize?  Reach out with some innocuous communication on other topics?  I've been waiting for him to reply since, well, it's his turn, and I figure he needs time and space to process what I said.  But now it is starting to feel like he won't, or that perhaps it would be appropriate for me to repair what I broke here by intruding into his business and trying to clean up his side of the street, as it were.

P & C

You didn't break into anything. You are trying to manage his emotions. You are trying to protect his feelings.

You are focussing on him.

He doesn't feel it or see it the way you do. You have nothing to apologise for.

Except to yourself because you continually refuse to look after yourself in this. You still just want to see it from his side and not yours. That is the entrenched codependency- do you see that?

Sorry for butting in- not my conversation right now- please ignore!

Codependency is a thought process.  It goes to why you do or say something - not really what you do or say.

Underlying it is a belief that we hold the key to controlling someone else - that if we say or do something just the right way the other person's behaviors or thoughts will be influenced and we will get what we want from them. 

I see you focusing a lot of energy still on trying to figure out what makes him tick, what he is and isn't capable of in a relationship, whether you should contact him or wait, whether you need to apologize to him or not, etc. 

When you ask: should I contact him or apologize to him?

I hear: if I contact him or apologize, will he reconnect and talk to me again?

At least to me, some of your questions seem aimed more at "fine tuning" your message to get a better resonse from him, and less about exploring self.  The goal, I think, is to care less about him and his behavior and more about you and your needs. 

And, for what it's worth, my impression is that you said what you needed to say to him when you talked to him.  But all this second-guessing is what feels more co-dependent and aimed at getting some result from him. Trying to "walk it back" and "fix" what may now feel like a "mistake" because of his reaction.    

This explanation about codependency makes more sense to me than probably any other I've read.  I get stuck at where healthy interdependency ends and this begins, because to be empathetic to another's feelings is also important.  I've read in some of the reading and lessons too that if you're in a relationship like this you have to be the healthy healthier one and "read" or "guess" or anticipate what may going on in your partners head in order to gauge which tools to use and the best way to deal with them.  So, if you're staying or wanting to relate to them better it's a very fine line to walk it seems if I'm understanding all I'm reading you have to act in a somewhat co-dependent way to relate to them.  And then define for yourself where your boundaries are and where you stop doing so? 

At least that's how I'm reading it, and of course this isn't an exact science, but it can be confusing. 

Maria-  I can tell you've been exactly where I'm at right now.  The texts stopped.  I was told if it were not for a child, an inferred threat of self harm was made to show me the hurt I've caused .    

By the end of the evening there was a full circle and it seemed he had calmed down (laughing and joking with other friends).   It's hard to take things seriously and not see it as a total manipulation.  And I guess that's my answer... .     I do think he has feelings for me, but it's hard to believe or know what they are right now.  I'm also struggling to not totally paint him black because I see how manipulative he can be trying to control me.   I've never believed this was a Narcissistic person, but when emotionally dysregulated lately I see lots of NPD traits.

P&C I hope you are doing well today.  Even though it's not the same situation at the moment, I feel like we may be facing the same things holding us back.  I don't want to assume too much, but I'm in a very life changing situation and have been for the past few years.  I often ask myself what it is in my  present or what fear of my future that keeps me staying or stuck in this and makes it more appealing to me (apparently) than moving forward and filling my life in other ways.  And yes, it's obvious that I care for this person, although I feel I'm detaching as my feelings are wearing out and wearing down.  In my case, I think it's my own fears and avoidance of other issues that make it too easy to focus on him, and I'm trying to come to grips with that and figure out a plan or way to break away from it and change it.

Thanks y'all.

Briefcase, I so appreciate what you wrote, about how what I said to him wasn't actually an instance of co-dependent fixing or intruding, but my instinct to now go back and try to "walk it back" because of his reaction, is the real issue.  I think you've hit the nail on the head ... .   I was driving to work this morning thinking "actually, I'm fine with what I asked him & told him.  I've stayed out of his stuff all this time, almost two years, despite that his emotional messiness has erupted all over my life several times in ways that were quite hurtful.  I have stepped back, taken care of myself, accepted who he is -- repeatedly, as I've learned more about that -- and finally, he went to a place where it would have been very strange not to comment that his actions are going to mean a loss for me, for us, for him to the extent he values our closeness.  I'm fine that I raised those issues."

I really do understand co-dependency from the inside, I lived that way for many years.  I haven't been co-dependent with this man.

But I have been driven by a desire not to lose him.  So I have accommodated myself and accommodated myself and tried to get inside his head to make sure I didn't screw up and lose him again.  I think that, rather than co-dependency, is what you are all detecting.

So rather than second-guess the strong and clear instinct I had to ask those questions, the ones that seem to have driven him away, I am going to embrace the fact that I said something that was true to me, something that was warm, loving but questioning and challenging toward him ... .   and let the chips fall where they fall.  It's in his court now, and he decides how he processes and handles what I conveyed.

This may be very particular to my journey out of co-dependency, but all along in this r/s, I've made decisions to have boundaries, to back off, to face reality, to not try to make him into someone he isn't.  But I've had such a hard time feeling good about those decisions ... .   because they haven't led to a "good" outcome, in the sense of an easy, stable, comfortable, close r/s between us, with all the hurts repaired and a simple happy ending.  So yes, like Briefcase said, I have a tendency then to want to "walk it back" and regret & revisit my solid decisions to have boundaries and face and state reality.  Because I have some sense that if I just made the right decisions & choices, there would be a better outcome.

I think that concept is really dangerous when dealing with someone with BPD.  This thread has helped me expose how deeply entrenched that notion is in me -- that if I do what's right, by myself and the person I love, I can fix the outcome.

Ah, well, I try not to editorialize to other adults about how they are 'careening and smashing up things in their lives'.  I probably do it on here sometimes (yikes!)  and use to do it all the time with my ex (not appreciated btw) but now, it's usually only if I'm asked for specific feedback from someone.  Most peole are doing the best they can!  I wouldn't really appreciate someone who has their own life issues to deal with, telling me I'm careening around and smashing up things in my life".  Physican heal theyself, you know!  I think you come dangerously close to being in a parental role (this is a one-up/one-down position) with someone when you critique another adults life choices in that manner. You have to be aware that you are the least unbiased person with this guy too, right? You are anxious about his move for your own reasons, he is a sepaerate person from you.   When we love someone we are NOT unbiased.  What may be out of control from your point of view may be a needed life change for someone else.  How the hell do we presume to know what is right for another person? (this is codependence btw... .   )

In close relationships you have to be really careful, it's not like you don't have your own agenda here... .   so, I don't know... .   I'd be careful about that kind of critique.  That's doesn't mean you don't get to take care of yourself.  If someone's behavior is directly damaging to ME PERSONALLY I will say something like STOP IT!... .   and distance myself as necessary if they can't be counted on to stop it.


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I think when a person is taking space it's best to let them take space.  In a while if I heard nothing I'd probably send a quick note to check in and see how they are doing.


Honey, this IS codependence. What about this isn't just like an addiction?  That's what CD is!

Your anxiety about what he will or won't do is palpable.  The addiction is to sooth the anxiety by reaching out again as though he fixes your anxiety for you, as thugh to loose him you will loose your ability to feel okay... .   over and over, and fixing, and apologizing, and walking on eggshells, and fixing some more, and ruminating some more to keep him.  You can do this yourself, you do not need him to help you with your anxiety.  The belief with Codependce is that we need or requre this person to help manage our emotinal states.  

Try just sitting with your OWN anxiety and soothing yourself without involving him at all.  Try just being with yourself and NOT KNOWING.  Try just not getting your 'fix' the way you normally do.  

“Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.”

― Rainer Maria Rilke





 

I don't think that caring and sacrificing for a BPD person is necessarily so bad... .   under any named behavior, beit "codependency" or friendship. If one is ruining their life as a result, ok... .   It's not healthy and needs some limits placed on the behavior.

The statement "that's not love" should maybe read "that's not a balanced relationship". And with a BPD, that imbalance may exist for the lifetime of the people involved. But I find that not so different than true love, committed love, or unconditional love... .   Irrational and unbalanced as it may seem.

My 2 cents.

The concept of co-dependency and emotional dependency can be very confusing.  There are many many articles and threads available on it, and it is a big enough topic that it often  needs it's own thread for further exploration.  

However, the word 'codependency' (or dependent personality in the DSM IV) is referring to a caretaking or enmeshed situation that has become unhealthy in the sense that we become less differeniated (have a lesser sense of self) and have become emotionally dependent upon the other to the point of being self-abandoning... .   much like an addiction.  

Some folks can take on a caregiving role, but to do it in the most healthy way, they have to learn about taking care of self and setting limits and boundaries lest they easily move into a codependent arrangement where both the caretaker and the ill one become less healthy together.  Many of the skills taught on the Staying Board are designed to assist in learning this self care.  The idea of taking care of self is often quite foriegn to care-taking personalities.

On the Staying Board, it's not unheard of for healthy stayers to move into a a mental state where they are "willing to leave" if necessary.  In my opinion, the emotional willingness and/or ability to leave if necessary,  paradoxically,  makes for a healthier "stayer" for as long as we stay.  It's part of detaching with love.

I can have unconditional love for someone, without necessarily staying or being in close quarters.  I do have my limits in staying in very close proximity to someone. Sometimes, I love someone (unconditionally) but from a distance for my own safety or well being.  The kind of unconditional love that invovles close proximty and caregiving is usually reserved for infants, small children and folks who truly are incapable of meeting their own basic needs without constant help and supervision.    

This is such an interesting discussion (and I know it is soon to be shut down for reaching 4 pages!).  I think for me this is intensely confusing because I have continuously drawn back from my r/s with this man onto ground I thought was firm, only to find it was not firm.  I did not "recycle" romantically/sexually, not even the first time.  I checked carefully for what he was able to give in an intimate friendship and I participated in that, because it was valuable to me and seemed reciprocal.  When he drew back, I let him, and I didn't allow anything that felt unequal or abusive.

However, the reality is that he asked me for a lot emotionally (and he gave a lot).  We were really close.  I don't think that is an addiction--I think it is a relationship. Then he left.  This is the latest installation in a pattern of eternal leaving -- it isn't some sudden major life change.  It was super impulsive -- he flips back and forth week to week about whether he is coming back, or moving to X.  It is very painful for me that he suddenly left, and I don't think it's because I am addicted to him, I think it's because I care about him and he suddenly ripped away the structure for our relationship that he as well as I built.  I think objecting to this is OK because it affects me (which is what I told him).

I'm struggling with the approach that you don't need other people to do XY or Z for you, you can do all that for yourself ... .   Sue Johnson, in Hold Me Tight/Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, talks about how the quest for complete emotional independence is misplaced.  We do need other people.  I need him; he is one of the people I most care for.  I can learn to live without him, of course, and if the result of this latest twist is that I have to, it's a loss I will have to assimilate.  But I wanted to try to live with him (not literally), and because of his attachment disorder, it's damn hard.  So of course I've tried to figure out what's up with him.  I think this is like what Waitaminute is saying ... .  

Maybe I'm at a point where caring about him has involved too much ripping away too many times and I just can't do it any more. But if I am going to care, and we are going to be connected, how do I accept that one day we are intensely close, and the next, I have no idea where he is headed or whether I will ever see him again?  It seems to me that part of my side of that story is to protest.  Part of it is to assert that that is not what it means to care about someone.  I am not expecting to change him.  But I am expecting him to hear that that is my view and my feeling.  :)oes that make sense?

I love Sue Johnsons work and know it well.

In urging you to focus on soothing your own anxiety and practice doing that without him, im not suggesting you don't need connection with others or that connection isn't important. It is vitally  important, of course.

How long have you not heard from him?

I'm suggesting not all folks are willing or able to hold you tight as needed or requested,  and when that happens, we learn to hold a space for ourselves. Sue Johnsons work is geared specifically to couples using attachment theory to strengthen and heal their relationship. All people go through times when they are not in that kind of relationship, and

they self sooth or seek nurturance elsewhere if we don't have a partner or don't have a

partner willing or able to meet our attachment needs. In large part this forum fills some

attachment needs for us,  as does family, friends, a good therapist, etc.

You did share how you felt, right? There isn't anything wrong with that, we just don't always

get the response we wish for, right?  He hasn't responded the way you hoped. This is

disappointing. What do you want to do?

He is described as someone who is eternally leaving. If he stopped doing that it would be a

huge change. You said you don't want him to change... .   what do you want?

What would be helpful to you at this point?  We have no control over him, what would be

helpful for you?

patientandclear,

I hope my posts don't encourage your continued attachment beyond what is good for you. It's dangerous ground compared to the safety of complete detachment. The people here are more experienced than me in this matter and if they see an unhealthy codependence, then maybe that's what it is. Certainly in a forum like this, the attachment to a BPD can be so devestating and destructive that it's better to err on the side of advocating a safe and complete detachment devoid of any trace of even benign codependence ( and sorry if that's an oxymoron. ) It might even be the responsible thing to do for many of our brothers and sisters here that are at the end of their rope.

But I've read too many posts not only here but elsewhere that advocate the kind of self sufficiency that your reference to Sue Johnson seems to refute. And I agree with your one liner synopsis of her book... .   needing other people is OK... .   and maybe even essential for some of us. So I'm really just throwing in a little balance from that side. I wouldn't do it if you seemed unable to cope with the reality of your ex's behavior.

I also post because I put myself somewhat in your situation. Many differences too. But the way you express your position resonates with me more than any other story here. I won't take up your thread with my details though.

I do want to say that to the extent we have any similarity in our situations, I believe that your sense that you have failed is just your tired frustration showing. You have seen how your patience has given him a feeling of safety with you. Your questions to him were appropriate. But there is a price to pay for being appropriate. And I think that price is now the additional patience that you must have, waiting for his return over a longer than typical period of time. You are safe ground for him... .   even with your last set of questions. Maybe you will decide that it's just not worth the additional wait. Or maybe you will see a harmful version of codependency within yourself. But if you are inclined to wait for him, I think you will get your friend back.

In my case, I can't imagine things actually getting better that what you have achieved. And I'm Ok with that for right now. I have no idea how to meet my real relationship needs with another normal woman while maintaining this precarious balance with my BPDex. But I'm not looking for another normal woman right now so I will just have to cross that bridge when I come to it.

It would be good advice if someone told me ':)on't get lost. Make sure you can find your way back'. So I say the same thing to you :)

Just sneaking in here one more time before someone closes this thread to say a huge "thank you" to everyone who has pushed me forward and helped work through several different values in tension in many of our situations, here on this thread.  MaybeSo & Waitaminute, for different reasons, profound thanks for your last two posts.  They made me cry, in a very good way.

MaybeSo, yes, I am still learning to wait and sit through the anxiety, to realize I am only a part of this relationship, he is the other part & I cannot do his part for him; and that I am OK where I am.  This is a very big change from where I was 20 or even 10 years ago, and it still doesn't come super naturally (as you can tell from all my second-guessing).  When he was first on the brink of breaking up with me, he said he didn't know how to bridge the gap between us, but I had the skills to do it.  Out of my mouth unbidden came the words "I can't do 100%.  I can only do half."  I'd tried to do 100% in other relationships and got absolutely nowhere but miserable.  But him asking me to bridge the gap still exerted (and exerts) a big tug, and not trying to do that still feels awkward and like I am not doing something I'm supposed to be doing -- saving our love, making things turn out OK.  MaybeSo, I've learned so much from your practice of acceptance.  It's still just a little scary for me, but I'm practicing.

Waitaminute, thank you for that beautiful post.  Thanks for understanding that the struggle for the relationship maybe can be a good thing.  Your comment that there is a price to be paid for being appropriate, and your sense that I will get my friend back with additional patience, were calming and felt like a true description of this situation.  Waiting for him, since I am not "waiting" in any sense other than leaving a space for him in my heart, costs me nothing and I will certainly do that.  Whether I can afford to care as deeply for him as I have, when I also have to accept he eternally leaves, I don't know, but I can figure that out later ... .   I will say back to you, ":)on't get lost.  Make sure you can find your way back."

Thank you all both for your kindness and for pushing me.

P&C

*mod*

Well folks its 4 pages time to lock this one up and a good note to close with. 

Take care  :)