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I have been married to my UBPDW for 44 years, and she stopped all intimacy 36 years ago.  I am codependent and discovered her BPD, and my Codependence two years ago.  I finally with my Ts advice wrote the following letter.

Dear:xx

     I am writing you this letter because I need to let you know my feelings.  I am hoping to find some positive way to improve our interactions and communications.  It seems that every time I attempt to discuss any issue with you, regarding our relationship, your emotions are triggered and further communication becomes impossible.  I have been frustrated by this failure to communicate so many times in the past.  I believe that you must be feeling similar frustrations.

   For a long time I have felt lost, alone, and unloved.  I am only human, and I do need Intimacy in the relationship with my Wife.  This lack of intimacy hurts me and is breaking my heart.  Many nights I cannot sleep because I just cannot clear my mind of thoughts of being so alone even though you are right next to me.  I feel that I have allowed this situation to exist for far too long.  I do love you and have asked you if you love me, and your answer was, “I don’t know.”  The way this feels to me is after 44 years of marriage, the actual answer is, “No!”  “I don’t know.” is an unacceptable answer after being together this long.  The only acceptable answer is yes, or no.

   This situation is intolerable, and unacceptable to me. 

You’re Loving Husband,

Her reaction to this was to blame me, as I expected, and projected it onto me, playing Victim.  A week later after silent treatment she acts like nothing ever happened and ignores it going on as before.  Does anyone have any comments?  Thank You,

Art

What a beautiful letter.  It expressed what I have been feeling in the past couple of years of my marriage.  I can't imagine how it must feel after so many years.  Kudos to you for expressing yourself in such a clear, concise and constructive way.  I was almost moved to think about writing a similar letter,  until I read your end result.  I am sorry it didn't work out as planned. 

Could you bring it up again?  What does your T say about her ignoring it? 

4now,

     My T felt I would get the same as how it turned out.  I was not surprised either. Since I am a Codependent and am having trouble with the issues of a separation, plus my being in this Relationship for so very long, i am being very slow arriving at a final solution for my lonliness and missing marriage.  It is so very hard to continue in a totally loveless marriage that I have to essentially take care of my wife as if she were a child.  She has trouble with the simplest of things, except shopping.  She is not out of control with spending, but the shopping for groceries, and her needs around the home and her clothes is her best ability.  I tend to do the rest and with much complaining about my inadequacy.

     During my marriage, I had to find a life of my own to escape the continuous rages.  I attended night school most nights except weekends and fridays.  I, now have completed more than 500 credit hours of college courses, have an Electrical Engineering and Nuclear Engineering degrees, with a Professional Engineer's License and a Journeyman Electrician's license.  Now that I am ready to retire soon, I need to come to grips with my long lost marriage.

     I continue to work on myself towards recovery from Codependence, by attending weekly CODA meetings, and Therapist appointments.  I read most nights and study Codependent tendancies to help me understand my own behaviors so I can work on them.

Art

Well Art, you seem very accomplished.

Your codependency has had a silver lining. Some do, most don't. In any case, you have written a nice letter that should have been sent decades ago.

Does the engineer in you see that you have gotten your yes or no answer?

Now what? Another letter? Another therapy session?

What you do with your retirement years is totally up to you, not her, not me, not your therapist, or your lastest accomplishment. It is up to you.

As Nike says... .

blecker,

     I would say my codependency has probably ruined my life for the most part.  I have never understood why I had such timidness and could not assert myself.  Since my enlightening about my problem, I have greatly improved and am working on me every day.  I learned how to establish Boundries and Limits for myself and stopped the rages a year ago.  I no longer accept Dysregulation from my UBPDW.  I immediately leave for the remainder of the day and either go upstairs or to 24 hr Fitness.  This has nearly stopped her rages completely.  I know it is good for her because she must self regulate and cope with her pain herself. 

     My major issue is that I need to overcome my own fears and low self esteem and strengthen my own contentment within myself.  Leaving without properly recovering from my own shortcomings will just become a recipe for my disaster, as I would probably find someone even worse than what I have now.  I realize I am a BPD magnet, and always have these darned codependent tendencies where I need to fix things I should have no business in.  My bottom line is I believe I am getting somewhere with my Codependency and have detached to the point where I don't even get so upset with her behaviors any more.

Art

Well, you have x amount of years left in this world, do you want to spend it being sad, abused and unloved?  Maybe figure out an exit plan and slowly implement it, I don't see how your life can be any worse... .

good luck

OK Art but remember we are what we eat.

artman, going forward we all need to know what we want and what we want to see happen - before laying it out in a letter.

I would be honest and say she will feel invalidated and you will not get the outcome you want - which is some open communication.

Art, what do want? You say you are co-dependent - what dynamic do you bring to this relationship? Do you think the lack of intimacy is the "actual" issue here?

What I had trouble with for some time was the question, WHY!  Why did I allow all the abuse for so long, until I became clinically depressed?  Why did I stay true to someone who raged and refused all intimacy?  I could live without marrital sex, but no hugs, or even holding hands, and I allowed that?  Well, I finally figured it out.  My Father was an Alcoholic in the biggest way, and my Mother was a codependent and lived with his daily verbal abuse and bad behaviors.  I learned that was what a marriage was supposed to be, and I was my mother's care taker at about less than 11 years old and older.  I had little interaction with my parents because my Mom worked to support us, and focused on my Dad, while my Dad was Drunk and out of the picture all the time.  I was embarrassed to have friends over, and I was an only child, so I became very Codependent in the extremely Classical way.  I always tried to fix everything so I could be recognised and praised/loved?  All this background resulted in my life of abuse, trying to fix and be loved.

    Well with a BPD that will NEVER happen!

Art

Clearmind,

     I have been doing a total evaluation of myself and life.  I can see why I am the way I am.  Yes, my greatest issue is with the abusive lack of intimacy.  Everyone needs some kind of love, that I never got.  I need at least some gesture of love from my WIFE.

Art

Oh I agree with you there artman - however the lack of intimacy is maybe not the cause - the cause is something much more complicated - the lack of intimacy is how the core issue is playing out.

Your wife likely fears intimacy - so you go in with a letter that states that the lack of intimacy is not acceptable - she will shut down - she will blame you. We each play a role and if you are indeed co-dependent and had an alcoholic parent - it is likely your communication skills need some brushing up on. I lived through a childhood with a father who is an alcoholic - I know the legacy they bring.

Before we even go down the road of sending a letter like this - can I ask you question - Have you at any stage validated your wife and asked if she is open to talking about a few things - to make things better for you both?

I have been working on me for a little more than a year.  I spent the first year mostly focused on BPD understanding, to the point, my T was asking me questions.  I have, since done a total focus on Codependency and on me.  I am becoming happier with myself and my own behaviors.  I have detached with love, and more with compassion and understanding.  I wrote the letter expecting her to behave the way she did.  My T said my letter was perfect before I gave it to her.  My T is a BPD specialist and facilitates DBT therapy with BPDs.  Both my T and I were shure that my UBPDW would find some way to blame me, and attack me about my letter.  I just became that more detached.  I know abandonment, and lonliness is a fear of Codependents, and I know I suffer from that, but I am getting better, and happier with myself.  I am getting closer to loving myself more than others.  That is another learned trait of codependents.  Baby steps is about all I can expect of myself.

     I have always focused on my dreams.  I started with a dream and when I attained that one I started a new dream, continually altering course little by little until I fulfilled that dream.  That is how I have been able to keep my own life going and taking care of me.  I am really fortunate that a great number of my wonderful dreams have been realized during my life.

Art

I get you have worked on you - thats great - however my dialogue with you is not about that - its more to do with helping you see that the underlying issue is not about intimacy. Its the underlying issue we all need to understand and work with our partners about. Forget the lack of intimacy for now artman - its not about that. I get its hard for you to not have intimacy with your wife.

Good open communication comes way before intimacy.

Not to disrespect your therapist - I am assuming you posted the note on the Undecided Board to gain some perspective from the members?


artman can you answer my question.


I am confused by this statement – can you please explain.

Clearmind,

    I do understand how my UBPDW fears intimacy.  She was totally abused as a child, with beatings and witnessing her alcoholic Dad beating her Mom.  Her Mom was an Alcoholic as well, and I believe she was BPD herself.  My UBPDWs Mom alienated the whole family and finally passed away all alone in a nursing Home in Yuma, AZ.  We were actually on our way to visit her Mom which we did at least every other year. Quite sad.  All my UBPDWs family are mixed up from their childhood.  Her older sister turned Lesbian after having a husband and two sons.  They grew up all messed up as well.  Her younger Sister who I believe has BPD, was married three times in about four years and had a daughter with her second H, and then caught AIDS because of all the bad choices she made with her sexual wants. She battles that to this day just to stay alive.  Her youngest brother has been in, and out of prison all his life.  Haven't heard from him in years.  My UBPDW is probably the best.  

    During our 43rd wedding anniversery at a real nice resturant, I talked to her in a very loving and validating way about how much I loved her, and she interrupted me to accuse me of Cheating on her.  I have never done that, and she is my one and only.  I realized that was Projection.  I am sure I had made her feel guilty and ashamed so to cope, she projected what she had done in the past.  She is not aware I saw her cheating, as I followed her that night and she did not know I was there watching her in our car with another guy.  I stayed because of our three sons who were at that time 3, 4, & 5 years old.  They are successful and happy with their own families today.  I must believe I was at least a big part of that success.

    Now, I am just working on me and aiming towards my next dream of finding happiness.

Art

Claermind,

     Good open Communication!  She cannot commnuicate about anything but simple non threatening things that have nothing to do with Intimacy.  I did establish my boundries and stopped the raging.  I never communicated the boundries as these are mine and for my protection.  I just up and left when she started, so after three times, on the fourth, she said, "if I say that, you will leave." and stopped raging.  I wish I had known about boundries 40 years ago.  Yes, I care about her, but I have detached so much now that she has a hard time getting to me.  I validate her all the time, and can see her moods, and understand her coping mechanisms.  Well I must go to Aqua and work out... .  

Art

Clearmind,

    Quote: Both my T and I were shure that my UBPDW would find some way to blame me, and attack me about my letter.  I just became that more detached.       I am confused by this statement – can you please explain.

    I was discussing the letter with my T, and she asked me what I expected.  My answer was that she would reject me and blame, which are classical BPD modes of behavior when confronted with their behaviors.  My first attempt was to use  validation, dearman, and set.  My T said I was being way to soft and to be assertive.  She said write the letter from my heart and forget all the communication techniques.  I re-wrote the letter and that one she liked and you have read it above.  I posted the letter to see what kind of response I would get.  I have never written a letter to her before except when I was in the navy on the submarine I was on overseas.  My T agreed that as a BPD, she would probably not give me the result I wanted.  She did think my letter would affix my needs in my UBPDWs mind.  I decided to give it some time.  Within a week she seemed back to normal.  I have at least noticed a little more concern from her if I skip the eavening meal because she was getting grumpy and heading towards dysregulation.  She never acted concerned about any discomfort I have ever endured before.  

    Is it possible that she may be thinking about the letter and attempting in her twisted way to show some kind of love?  I'm not really sure, but she may be afraid I may leave after she blew the letter off into my face.  I must say that I am seriously considering leaving and am just not quite ready yet.  I know others would chastise me for being slow to make up my mind, but it is just not that easy with all her health issues, and the length we have been married.  Since I am essentially alone now, I am not afraid to leave, but I feel some responsibility for the results of my actions.  I fear the results would not be good for either of us.  It is hard to weigh my needs against the unknown possibilities and probabilities. Additionally, how much love is a 66 year old man going to obtain after a separation?  I cannot believe that I have been successful at managing a $200 million construction contract with several hundred workers, and cannot even manage my own marriage. At least I can still work and make a reasonably good living for myself, and I can contract out in the consulting Engineering field.

Art

Hi artman - the tools help us get our point across without escalating conflict. If your plan is to not use the tools to insight conflict, in order to have the thought of "Oh well, there she goes, all crazy, I feel OK with leaving now" then you are attempting to poke the lion.

Artman, you are an intelligent man, who has a world ahead of him - you are the same age as my mom and she dates some very nice kind folks.

If you wish to leave, please do it in it a healthy way - for you and her.

If you wish to stay, please consider using the communication tools open to you.

Artman,

I'm your age, and I endorse what Clearmind is suggesting to you. It is likely that your therapist does too, and that the therapist is trying to help you make a choice. (It's less likely that the therapist is trying to get your wife to change in some fundamental way. The letter was perhaps "for you," in the therapist's mind, no?)

If others who have been reading your posts over time are as I have, then they may have been wondering, as I have been, "Will Artman ever be able to make a decision?" In my opinion, the act of making a decision is the act that begins to break the disease of codependency.

Making a decision is probably also the kindest thing you can do for your wife.

I have tried and tried to use the communication tools.  I have worked so very hard to communicate with her, but her barriers are very high and she has, I believe, become so accustom to controlling me that the changes I have made within myself have set her off.  If my attempt gets into the areas of any serious issue that she is uncomfortable with, she shuts down, and communication is stopped.  I am sure some of this is on me, but I have been unsuccessful.  I guess some can live without love from their spouse, but I am so tired of that I just am at a loss.  She will allow me to hug her sometimes for a few seconds and always hangs her arms down at her sides, then twists away.  Mostly she tells me to leave her alone and not touch her before I even get within a few feet away.  She does that even when I had no intention of touching her.  This feels terrible to me, making me feel that she is totally sickened by my presence.

Art

Furthermore, she treats me as a servant.  She demands constant vigilence to provide her with whatever she desires.  Water, food, whatever.  I have detached such that I no longer am available for her as a servant.  It has developed into a situation where I am considering going on vacation on my own, so I can get a break.  My biggest problem is I have trained her in the past to expect things that I should not have provided.  It always goes one way, and never in my favor.  I asked her to get me a glass of water a while back and if looks were deadly, I would have passed away immediately.  She refused.  When she does fix a meal, which is maybe once per week, she sets her place and I come to the bar or table and go get my own dishes for myself to eat with.  I never treat her that way.  You can see this has developed into a very dysfunctional Relationship.

Art

Yes Art, it seems it has.

The issue in front of you is what are you going to do about it.

It is unlikely you will change her unless she wishes changing.

Does your therapist recommend that you leave the relationship?

Sounds to me like you are both paralyzed by fear

Fear of being alone (in her case)

Fear of not being able to find someone else - and thus being alone (in your case)

As long you are paralyzed by fear and let it determine your course of action, nothing will change

The only way to break through fears is to confront them head on

Do you think you have what it takes to confront your fear?

Yes!  I can confront my fears.  There is more than fears that paralyze me.  Well, I guess these are all fears, but a lot more than being alone.  Alone is the smallest part.  I really do not fear that I cannot find someone else, but if I can find a better Relationship than I have. (I do not want to jump from the frying pan into the fire.)  I am lucky that I have good health.  She, unfortunately does not.  I am lucky that I could work and provide myself a very good living.  She, unfortunately does not.  She has had a part time job in the past for about 10 years, but totally unskilled type work, and has not worked for about 15 years.  My retirement and my Soc. Security is all we have after I retire.  If split, would place both of us in a low income situation.  I must hope the court would split our assets evenly.  Then we have, although minor at this time in our lives, our family relationships with our three sons and grandchildren. 

     It is just not so easy to break up after 45 years.  It has not always been bad and not totally bad right now.  I still care for her, but that does not really go both ways.  As you can see, this is a lot more complicated than first considered.

Art

Your state (which is also mine) is a community property state, but it is not a "pure community property state," such as California, in the sense that it has a series of criteria by which the court attempts to establish an "equitable distribution." You would need to consult with a family law attorney regarding your particular circumstances, but a distribution of community property with a 60%/40% split in her favor would not be too unlikely in the case of a very long marriage, with both parties having reached retirement age.

Deciding not to divorce for just this reason could be a very reasonable choice. If you can look at the financial realities and make your choice, one way or the other, it might take pressure off both you and your wife as you move forward.

Artman, Im very sorry to see you have been through all that. I have 2 BPD´s in my family, one of them is married for 50 years and treats her husband the exact same way (as a servant).

I think you hit the point when you said you trainned her to have her desires fullfilled. Thats what I have seen also in my family. People give in and they are never happy, they keep on asking for more, until everyone around is exahusted. And if you say no, prepare yourself for a child´s tantrum! For me its still unbearable, I just have to leave and go NC.

I really cant give you advice, sorry, but I think you are in the right way since at least now you can see the entire picture. And thats a BIG thing! Wish you all the best and keep us posted. :)

Wow!  If that is true for this State, then I would have to work for the remainder of my life if I want to be able to eat meat and see a doctor once in a while.  That would suck.  I can see what I may have done to myself.

Art

On a more practical approach, it would be wise to see a lawyer. Divorce is not an easy thing, and dividing assets can be a problem, but maybe its the price to pay for your own peace of mind.

It's not easy, as cristina points out, but make sure you know about all the benefits we seniors are eligible for, married or single. For instance, the fact that your wife--whether she is still your wife or turns into your ex-wife--will be due her own social security check each month. To maximize that check, she can claim her benefits based on her long-term marriage to you. Her check does not reduce your check in any way. Divorce does not impact her check or your check. (If, for instance, your monthly ss check is for $2,000, she will also get her own check, for $1,000.) Add medicare, reduced property taxes for retirees, housing assistance for low-income seniors, if your wife should one day need it. Eventually you may find all these things add up to more financial ease than you can now imagine.

It's a great idea to see a financial advisor and to run the numbers. Whether you stay or you go, it will be helpful and probably reassuring information.

Came to my mind that you can also dettach yourself from the situation in your mind at first. I read abt it somewhere, maybe its in "deciding to stay" board.

I believe it will give you some relief to be there, living together, but mentally you are out. It will prepare you to take a decision. It includes to move on with your life, meaning going after your interests, taking a course, finding a hobby, travelling with friends, whatever you find possible and appropriate for your case.

I take it back, you are not a servant, you are a slave. Servants at least have something in return, while with a BPD... . Thats from my experience, the 2 BPDs in my family use others as slaves and still its never enough for them. They play the blame card on people and I feel you have a lot of guilt going on, like you are responsible for her well-being! Im not saying leave her and never talk to her again, but seems to me you care more abt her than abt yourself... . Is your T helping you in that?

I was luckily only married for 4 1/2 years, but the dynamic was about the same. When I (Yes, I) was going to marriage counseling, our therapist mention one other patient he had that had been booted out of the bedroom for the past 25 year. For me it had only been several months at the time and this was one of several wake-up calls. Without it,  I could have ended up right where you are.

You also mention in one post how you want to work on yourself and improve until you can leave. You can't start to heal until you leave. When we get burned, we get away from what's burning us and run it under cold water. Then we dress the wound.

You obviously have a lot of anger and regret for the lost years. But you also raised three kids that seem to be doing quite well and you self-medicated through education. Not drinking, drugs, sex addiction, turning into a horrible person, or sticking a gun in your mouth. Feel you feelings then learn to forgive yourself and see the good that came out of the 44 years. Look at the years you have left, not the ones that that passed.  Worry about the legal/financial stuff later. You may (and probably will) end up with less but you'll be enjoying them on your terms, not hers.

I really don't have a whole lot of anger, but I did not understand over the years what I know today.  I regret not doing things to protect me, but that is on me, and not on her where I would be her victim.  I actually am my own victim.  I do still love my UBPDW and would never want to hurt her.  I understand she just has no capacity to love another person.  All that said, I can see how I was denied proper nurturing and love as a child.  I have been looking for love all my life and it has not been available to me.  I have just been LOOKING FOR LOVE IN ALL THE WRONG PLACES!  I have needed to look for love within myself.  I can see that no other can give me love that I do not take for myself from within myself.  That is a plague of Codependence.  As an adult, I must stop looking and longing for that which I will not find.  Yes, a loving Relationship is another issue altogether.

     My UBPDW has not thrown me out of our Bedroom.  I sleep in our bed, and most nights she does as well, but with a quilt, or pillows placed between us so she can feel safe.  Often she shifts herself so her head is at the foot of the bed.  I say all this is her problem and not for my worry.  If she trys to rage, I have left every time for the last year.  She has to self regulate.  Often she will move to the guest bedroom until she gets over what ever it is that she got dysregulated about.  Again, this is her stuff, and I just ignore it since I discovered about BPD two years ago. 

     From time to time, at meetings or other functions, I have been offered a hug from another woman, or even a man.  That always feels so good to me, and causes me to sigh at how my life became the way it is and I have accepted it for so long. 

Art

As for Detachment, I have a special way to describe it for myself.  I call it Detachment with Love, Understanding, and compassion, not anger and resentment.  If I harbor anger and resentment, I only hurt myself.  She cannot help or stop her BPD behaviors as she is Mentally Ill and suffering with this Disease.  How can I be angry, and resentful if I understand that?  I just can't. 

     The real issue is how I conduct myself in face of her Mental Illness, and how do I protect me.  First I must develop a Loving Relationship with myself, so I place a priority on my own needs and comfort.  This is my focus at this time, to gian some Codependent recovery such that I face my own needs first, and love myself first.  Through my childhood, and her disease, I have been taught to forgo my own needs in face of others needs and placing them before myself.  That behavior within me MUST STOP, and has.

Art

Art, Im not qualified as ur T is to give you advice, but I believe her situation evolved to that stage first, cause you didnt realize it (as most of us), and second, because once you realized it, you still offer excuses for her. BPD doesnt mean shes incapacitated. We agree theres some arrested emotional development, but still, its hard for me to accept that they are not accountable on anything!

You said "she didnt kick me out of OUR bed". For me, thats another clue that you gave her all the space to do whatever she wanted. Seems to me you have NO control. Why dont u leave the bedroom yourself? Why you always give HER the choice?

You may think its easy for me to ask such questions since Im not the one dealing with a BPDso, and you are right, but at the same time I may have a diiferent approach. :)

cristina,

     I am sorry if it sounded like I was excusing her Mental Illness.  That Illness has caused me much pain in my previous years.  I was actually acknowledging her Illness, and not blaming her for having a Mental Illness.  I have detached, and I am taking care of myself as best as I can given my remaining Codependent tendencies without regard to her. 

     This may sound bad to you, but when and if I go my separate way, I will Retire prior to Divorcing her.  I do not want to have my working salry used as a basis for her income when as soon as I retire I will be unable to live.  I know they want to base her living status on her past status, but after retirement, that status will be greatly reduced.

Art

You can have detachment in this way, but you still need to have detachment. Cristina has a point that your wife is calling the shots and that's fine. We've been there.

I'll meet you half-way on the disease/mental illness part. It's neither; it's a Cluster B personality disorder. It can be treated like a "mental illness" to a certain extent but no more than you would for alcoholism or drug addiction. If she was a severe alcoholic or an addict who didn't want to get help, you'd be in the same boat. But at some point their denial and blaming gets to a point that you need to detach before you end up destroyed. Unfortunately their MO is to retaliate when it's suggested they have a problem. A healthy person gives the accuser the benefit of the doubt and actually looks into it. A BPDer doesn't. They are WORSE than the alcoholics and addicts.

Lockedout, you are right, its not an illness, its a disorder. And thats a HUGE difference!

Art, why would I find it bad that you are careful regarding your assets? Actually I told you that it would be wise to talk to a lawyer just to see all the scenarios.

I agree that you have to work on your codependant issues, it seems to me you are still not completely aware of the situation. You sounded like your wife has a disease and she is not responsible for her actions. I cant agree with that.

Hello,

I know everyone is trying to protect and empower you so you can have and feel the right and the freedom to be happy. But after reading this thread, I think you´re just a fantastic person who is on a journey of growth, healing, and love, with such a humble and wise attitude. I think that being alone in the company of your wife must have been so hard, and being able to differentiate between the person that she is and the disorder that she has, is such a noble thing. I also believe that we must be able to see "through" the disorder and acknowledge the struggle and the loniless that they also must feel behind all that defense system, lack of self sense, etc... And to feel the "them" that somehow relate with us in some level that trancends the visible behavior. I don´t know what you should do, but it was inspiring to know about what you´ve been through, the compassion and meaning with which you live it. I wish you all the best.

Thank You all,

    In have read about 20 books about BPD and the associated behaviors, and unless all those Therapists, and Doctors are full of beans, Borderline Personality Disorder is associated with INSANITY.  The complete abusive life my UBPDW was subjected to with her siblings as children has in fact made all of them INSANE to some degree.  They are not living on the same planet as the rest of us.  Yes, they can be healed through greatly stressful teaching and therapy.  As a codependent, I feel I am INSANE to at least some degree.  Actually INSANITY runs rampant to some at least small degree throughout society.  The Cluster B personality disorders are just a measure of mental illnesses.  Next year, I understand that Codependence will have a new name and will be included in the measures with the rest.  All this really does not excuse them or even me for our behaviors.  I stand responsible for my actions and behaviors, and My UBPDW stands responsible as well.  We are each and every one of us responsible to ourselves, others who we have harmed, and to our higher power.  It is like what has been said, "Let the one who is without sin, throw the first stone."

    How can I blame her when I am not without blame.

Art

Art, you are welcome. I hope you keep us posted on your improvements. :)

That said, I have to disagree with the "insanity" definition. I havent read as many books as you have on the subject, but Id be very VERY skeptical if they use the word insane for BPDs. Insanity has to do with dellusions or hallucinations and even so, doctors use it in rare cases.

BPD, as I understand it, has more to do with mood. They are not insane. From my experience, I can see they behave very rationally to reach their goals and that includes manipulation, lying and other control techniques. And they know exactly on whom they can apply them. Often they rage at family, but not at work or in front of outsiders. An insane person would do it regardless of anything.

I understand that you are in this situation for decades so its hard to see clearly. We are not here to judge, we are just expressing our views, no one is throwing stones, we are somehow in the same boat. Im afraid Im telling you things you dont like to hear, but thats part of a discussion, isnt it? :)

I hope you seek support from your kids, they may have witnessed a lot, although I believe her behaviour escalated since they left home and you are her favourite target.

Wish you and all people out there lots of luck.

Cristina,

     What I have been talking about is the dance we do with our BPD partner.  I, as a codependent was drawn to her in a codependent way where I needed to be needed and wanted to supply her things I should not be supplying, and placing her needs before mine, and she was drawn to me because I gave her the needed attention and a dysfunctional focus.  I can see all this now after I have been analyzing what was going on with us.  This must be part of my recovery so I can recognize my own dysfunctional part and in the future, stop this behavior on my own part.  At first, I was like most others not yet able to see my part of this Relationship, and I was the Victim.  Now I see I am not a victim, as I was part of my own misstreatment and abuse.  She is and was a very good Mom.  I even saw that back then.  She nurtured and cared for our three sons.  When not in school during summers she set up activities to keep them busy every day.  She took then to Musieums, Science Centers, Library, and entered them in all kinds of activities, swim team etc.  They all became so much more than even the other kids because she was home and active with them.  Everything negative was pretty much just between herself and me.

Art

Living with a PWBPD is a life of chaos and confusions.  I have been walking on eggshells so long and been blamed with a thread of truth so many times that I have a hard time with who I am.  Talk about a crazy life.  It could be worse, I could have cancer or even worse.  Wait!  I do have a cancer!  I had to deal with the effects all day today.  Because I leave at the first sign of rage at me, she spent most of today raging at others talking to me during her rages at them.  I am not sure about a boundry for that behavior.  When I get tired of listening, I walk away and go upstairs.  I am upstairs now, and the house is quiet.

Art

Hi artman, checking in to see where you are at.

I believe, and you may or may not agree, that being in limbo (aka undecided) as to the future of your marriage is tiring, exhausting and confusing.

Million dollar question artman - good place to start

Nothing changes without change - right?

Being where you are right now is tough. So I ask you, as a senior member of bpdfamily with over 2000 posts and over 2.5 years tenure on the board - how can we, as staff and as members support you from here on in?

All you have helped me at least get to the place I am amd growing/learning.  Are you saying to stop posting?  It sounds like I may be a bother to you.

I guess I will check out.

Art

artman, sharing stories and what each of us endure is part of the process - it helps for a while - we like to feel validated. There comes a time where we all need to work on the tools available to us - use some centering and calming techniques/communication tools to help make our situation better.

I can see you have worked on you - that is great and I commend you - I have been a member for almost 2 years myself - I have seen your growth.

Your wife will not change and we need to decide if we can begin to work with the tools available to us! This board is here for you as much as is for me and other members - how you use it is always up to you - you need to walk your own path. I would certainly like to help you move forward so that your marriage and your situation improves rather than maintain status quo.

Does that sense?

Clearmind,

     Yes, I appreciate your help.  I have been into the lessons for absolutely all the boards.  I especially like the L6-taking personal inventory board and the workshops.  I have even downloaded info that was presented in the workshops.

Thank You,

Art

Artman, I know that I personally am hoping and hoping to see you let go of the "study" of codependence and take action to begin to break the codependence. Each time I think you are about to spread your wings and fly . . . you write another post that has an eerie resemblance to at least a hundred other posts I've read.  :) I guess that shows I am a codependent fool too, as I am still eagerly expecting to see something new. Like maybe you consulted with a financial planner. Or maybe you brainstormed with your sons about some relief for you. Or maybe you did an initial, free consultation with an attorney in your county. 

You remember what "unitedfornow" always says on the Staying board: "Nothing changes without changes."

What will it take for you to make a change?

 how can we, as staff and as members support you from here on in?

Art, My Friend:  This is a question meant to lead you further into introspection.   With this question begins your journey of navigating a different minefield. 

It is not meant to make you stop posting. 

Your first step was understanding what was involved (a mental disorder).

Your second step was to understand your role in the dysfunction (co-dependency).

Your third step was to admit that the lack of intimacy is unacceptable to you.

Now we need to help you either accept the status quo or to change it in order to be at peace.

Before we can help you, we need to know which road of the fork do you wish to take.  We will be there for you either way.  We see you stuck at the fork agonizing at the status quo. 

We are your friends and well wishers... .   always were, always will be.

Oh, pallavira, thank you for putting that so well!

I have a few thoughts if you are taking the "staying" fork. Like, now that you are so fit from 24Hour Fitness, how about checking out the chapter of the Mountaineers in your area. It is perhaps the most active in the U.S., and many of their members are retirees. . . . You can invite your wife along on the hikes, or, if she declines, you can set out all sorts of glasses of water for her in advance so that her needs are taken care of.  :) And then you can go off with the warm, energetic and outgoing folks who are the Mountaineers. And things will begin to look very different.

Art, just a few thoughts I wanted to share with you. For background information: I am 35 years old and I recently joined this forum after my (assumed) BPD girlfriend of 2.5 years broke up with me.

My relationship lasted much less time, but I see a lot of similarities. (Although I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you after 36 years). I would like to tell you about it, and ask some questions after:

She is a sweet, wholesome, pretty looking 28 year old woman who loves children and comes across as a kind and caring person. She gets up early and works consistently, yet resents having to do so and would always jokingly mention that I should provide for her.

She did little around the house, and the worse the relationship became, the less she did. She claimed a lack of motivation.

As she pushed me away more and more, I tried to pull her back to me more and more. I became needy and more and more submissive. I cooked most meals and did about 90% of the chores around the house. She took all of those services for granted, and would burst out in anger when I would make sarcastic comments about her laziness and lack of investment in house chores.

I guess deep down I thought that she would appreciate me for doing these things for her. It also gave me a good feeling to give to her. But she despised me for it. She would get furious if I asked her ever so nicely to do something for me. (like ironing my pants when in a hurry to leave or bringing me a bottle of water to on a hot summer’s day).

Even during the honeymoon phase, she was uncomfortable with too much intimacy. For example: except for special occasions her kisses were mostly dry pecks on the lips. After the honeymoon phase, sex started to become an issue. She started to refuse more and more. She also began to use it as a weapon against me. The more she resisted, the more I tried. The more I tried, the more she resisted. When it did happen, she liked it a lot, always wanting more. It seemed as though she had a mental block that, stopped her from fulfilling her sexual desires. Until it stopped completely about 7 months before the breakup.

I too found myself trying to hug her and being pushed away- or worse, being told not to hug her when I was merely passing by her.

She used the salami technique: she gradually stopped all the intimate acts until there was nothing left. (no more kisses, no more hand holding, no more hugs, etc).

Now to my question:

Conventional wisdom has it (ask any dating/ relationship guru), that submissiveness and neediness are not attractive traits in a man. Approval seeking behavior and being a slave to a woman is not attractive. (I too made this mistake).

The question is: is the inability of your wife to be intimate with you a result her BPD and you being emotionally too close for comfort? Or is it possible that your needy behavior and the perceived lack of confidence is the cause of her lack of attraction?

I ask about you but it equally applies to me.

If the answer is that the problem lies with the neediness- would it not be possible to change the dynamics by changing your behavior? (I don’t know if that is possible after 36 years).

Am I being naive or is this possible?

You've gotten some good, honest feedback from the group here.  We all want to help.  Whatever path you choose, you won't walk it alone.   :)

And I feel for you - I stood at that "fork in the road" for a while myself.  It took some pressure from the group here to help me along the way too.  That's what support groups do!

You have many friends here and no one will judge your decision.  We've all seen how hard you've worked to get here.  We also see that your work isn't quite done - it never is when you're undecided.  We want to see you take the next step in the journey is all.  Are you ready?

After being Married to my UBPDW for over 42 years, I was going to therapy and after six therapists, I finally had found one who helped. He told me to read "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me", and "Codependent No More".  Guess what?  All the lights came on.

    After finding all I could (just like the Engineer I am) about BPD, I shifted to My Codependence.  I established Boundrys and stopped rages. Things were going better without rages.  I began detaching as I previously said.  At this point, I have detached to the point that if I were alone I would be just fine.  I wrote the letter to her just to get a perspective of how she would react and attempting to get a better insight to where she is.  I, now realize that she is absolutely not able to give intimacy like holding hands etc.  I have noticed very slight things, like when I try to hug her, she is now allowing it at least briefly and even raising her hands to my sides (Not hugging back, but at least showing some response).  At this point we have been married for nearly 45 years.

    This may seem low, but I am finally at the point of retirement.  I am looking for a new Consulting position, and getting ready for the big change.  Once that happens I will be in a position where I will just open up all the way and let her know where I stand in our RS.  I figure that will be the beginning of the end.

Art

Art, we will be here for you all the way.  We just see you agonizing at the status quo and want to help you through this too.

... .   and hugs my friend and lots and lots and lots of them.

     Don't get nervous now.  I am indeed a married woman!

:-)

OK everybody... .   send our good friend Art a lot of hugs.  We all could do with a good squeezy Barney the Purple Dinosaur group hug.

After following your recent posts, Art, take your pick... .   !

hug    or man hug 

Sorry Gentlemen:  I thought that all hugs were neutral... .   didn't know the difference between a man hug and the "other" hug.

Take your pick Art. :)

Art, you just made my day! I promise you, we old dogs can learn new tricks. 

Thank You all for the hugs.  I am just not used to getting them at all.  I always keep myself busy doing home improvement Projects.  I have recently been remodeling the fireplace in our Living Room, and completed the fireplace in the Family Room.  Recently completed remodeling the Kitchen with all New cherry cabinets and quartz counter Tops with new SS appliances.  There is always something new to keep me busy.  Recently my UBPDW has changed her mind about my projects being so very bad and such a failure, and has been complementing me on doing a really good job.  I really don't know if the letter had anything to do with this change of heart or not.  As per my yearly custom, I invested in another $6k IRA max CD again this year.  I think that made her happy as well, but it saved us about $2k in taxes so it is a very good investment indeed.

Art

Art, I've been seeing you since I arrived here, and I just want to say that I see you are getting uncomfortable sitting on the fence... .   and I'm one more guy who is here to support you as you are, and when you make a choice too.

 

(I guess I'm more used to hugs than you are  :) )


Perhaps it will be the end. Or perhaps it will be the beginning of something different.

Remember to use the communication tools we've got here when you decide to open up. They really do work better. And don't be afraid to ask your friends here to help you apply the tools better when you are ready to try. 

Yes, Communication is a key to success in one way or another.  I have been working on DEARMAN, and I believe I got set fairly well.  My T said to not forget about just good old clear communication rather than complicating with over dooing it.  Thank You, and I did get a lot of help with my letter in the first place prior to giving it to her.  My T did say she expected my UBPDW to react the way she did, but now she seems a little better and easier to get along with.  My T also told me my UBPDW could probably NOT be able to deal with Intimacy as her Mental Illness would prevent her coping with it.  Just too fearful.

I do understand that.

Art