BPDFamily.com

What is the general rule for replying to emails with someone who is considered abusive, dysregulated, etc.? Again, we are living together, D has been filed, my A has left messages for his A to discuss him moving out.  Typically I know the rule is not to engage but I also don't want to look like I'm ignoring the situation or allow him to make false statements about me.  I do feel a need to stand up for myself.   He did not reply to me when I texted him asking why our account was a negative balance so his statement is false. The day after the physical incident I went to my friend's house and he texted me something about me being out late.  I didn't feel comfortable engaging in his control and didn't feel it was necessary for him to monitor me.  This is all about him having the control over me and losing it.  He wasn't home last night again.

H said something about whenever I ask a question, he answers it but when he asks I don't.   Or I avoid replying to his e-mails or text messages.  False. He hasn't sent me any emails and the only text was the one after he came at me in the house when I was at my friends and was terrified to go home.  H said if I continue he will refuse to answer any of my inquiries.  Another threat.

I would like to reply something like: 'You have not spoken respectfully toward me in a very long time.  I texted you asking why the checking account is at a balance of  -$xx  and you never replied.'    

What do you suggest I do? Or do I not reply?

Also, an update to my situation that happened last week .  I decided to go to my doctor because from the impact of H grabbing the product out of my hand, my wrist ended up getting sprained.  The physician red flagged the situation I am in, asked many questions about H and his behavior, etc.  and suggested I move out away from him.   I told him I'd need to talk to the A about that, I would keep that in mind as that is part of my safety plan,  thanked him for the information. He knows I'm working with the counselors and the DIR report was filed. He gave me a printout report of the topics we discussed mentioning this is a DV injury,  so I am filing that away. 

Do I let my A know I filed a Domestic Incident Report? Do I provide the report the physician gave me as well?   

If you can, stick to emails.  Texts are not yet, as I understand it, considered as valid for communication as are emails.  Emails should contain "full headers" that contain transmission data from sender and to recipient.  Of course, the full header is lost when email is being replied to or forwarded, unless you specifically display them or insert them into the thread.  (Lesson: Saving only the most recent email of a string of emails generally doesn't preserve sending/delivery data of the prior emails.)


Anyone can twist and distort the facts to suit themselves.  You wouldn't do that unethically or unfairly, however your spouse has no such compunctions.  Accept that reality and deal with it accordingly.


All replies should be written with the court, evaluators or other professionals in mind.  You already know anything you write will not impact him positively, so don't reply for his benefit, your spouse is already a 'lost cause', instead reply for whomever may later read or review emails.  Also, just in case he may respond positively, keep replies (1) simple, (2) brief, (3) without emotional overtones and (4) to the point.  Your spouse will be blaming or blame-shifting, focused largely emotion-based and not fact-based - unless your spouse picks and chooses a subset of the facts.  If you do reply, keep it brief and stick to the facts.

This reminds me of the Far Side cartoon where it had a single scene with two captions - one was "what you say to your pet" and the other was "what your pet hears".  Yes, the pet side was mostly "blah... . blah... . blah... . blah... . "  Accept that your spouse or ex-spouse will filter out what is not acceptable to him/her.  Proceed accordingly.


Keep your attorney informed.  Your attorney should know which details of your case to keep confidential, even from the other attorney.  Be aware your A has other cases and scheduled court appearances so you may not always get through immediately, besides, frequent communication can become expensive.

+1  |iiii

i'm in the same situation. i don't want to engage, but i also can't let false statements hang out there. unfortunately, when i try to reply, he gets angrier and it gets worse. he is wired to be able to manipulate. it's amazing. it's like something gifted in his brain that i can't keep up with - and i was always pretty smart!  oh well.

Momtara and Sparkle13 - Yes, they open their mouths and lie so convincingly you wonder if you are the crazy one.  As far as letting false statements hang out there, you might say, "I'm not even going to dignify all of your lies about me with a response anymore," and leave it at that.  Tell other people the truth, but only on a need-to-know basis.  Most other people have figured out that he is a bit "strange."  By the way, you don't want the courts to conclude that he is crazy - it might complicate the divorce.  Do protect yourself as needed.  Open your own checking account in your name only.  If you link it to your existing account, transfers are easy to deal with. 

PS He is punishing you by the silent treatment?  How awful!  I bet you can't wait for him to come home and blame you and yell at you some more... .

Momt- ugh. Well he told me I'm his trigger and doesn't know why! Too bad I do! That's how my story really came to a head last year when I told him enough is enough. He didn't like that and just got more angrier every time I set limits or even tried giving him the benefit. After our one counseling appt. w his counselor we left and he told me that this is just the way he is and I'd have to deal with it.

When I started noticing his behavior I'd question him about something and he'd turn the story around so it wouldn't make sense. I'd be left wondering what was that all about.

Sbw- I like that reply! Funny I saw a friend who's hb works with my h. So we talked and she said she's heard my h is a know it all and hothead. I didn't feel so crazy after hearing about his work reputation! My story is on the other boards but yes, he punishes me with silence. That's what he did 3 weeks before a minor surgery- totally ignored me and the children then didn't want me there!

Sparkle, No, you don't have to "just deal with it."  You married "for better or worse" not for "worse and/or abuse, ha, ha you are stuck forever with me!"  Such an attitude is not an appropriate one for a husband or wife to have.  He won't like you letting him know this, but you are going to have to decide on and enforce some boundaries here.

Unfortunately, some people see boundaries as challenges and will attempt to step over them every time.

Have you read Splitting by Bill Eddy? There's a section in there about responding to hostile emails -- excerpted here on bpdfamily.com:

TOOLS: Responding to hostile email (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=133835.0#top)

Good advice in there, well worth reading.


I would send a very brief email: "This is the x time I have asked you to please inform me why there is a negative balance in our joint checking account by 5pm today. I emailed you on x day/date and x day/date, and asked you in person on x day/date. If I do not hear back from you by 5pm today, I will let my L know that you will not communicate with me about this."

You probably also want to know how he plans to pay bills and want confirmation that he is going to pay those bills?


Yes to both questions.

Sparkle

Any news today?  We are all worried about you.

Thank you.  Last night was absolutely terrible.  Yes, I spoke with my L and she is preparing the OoP, the stay away level to include the kids.  I also spoke with the DV counselor and she said he cannot take the kids like this.   She is including an order for him to be removed from the house, me to have exclusive occupancy, and immediate return of the children (which may happen tonght as she spoke with his L finally). I am supplying documentation for Just Cause.

She was going to walk this over to the Court House today but it sounds like if the kids are returned tonight she wouldn't have to rush over.  His L is contacting him and directing him to return the girls tonight. She asked me if I would be okay with texting him to confirm that he is bringing the kids back this evening. I'd be fine with that.

She is also asking how I feel about him having the kids while I'm at work tomorrow and Friday.  He has practices, is on break and is residing with his parents.  What do I say? Do I agree to this?  I thought the stay away order is that the kids would be away from his as well so should it be consistent?  I need to write back to her soon... .  

What are the usual arrangements for the kids? Consistency for them is probably the least disruptive option. If you can't take time off work to be with them, what other options are there for you?

This is a hard situation to read from a strategic staNPDoint. I can imagine that letting the kids spend the two days with their dad would make you look very reasonable and level-headed, even though your H took the kids and alarmed you. But psychologically, you probably want to stay close to them and make sure they're ok. I think a court would understand that too.

It sounds like your state might be different than mine, or perhaps it's the OoP that changes the circumstances, so your H has to return the girls. Whether or not he complies is another issue.

Hi Sparkle13

It is good to hear you are moving forward. It's so much like a massive game of chess when you want it to just be an action movie where you can just swoop in and save the kids ... .   and good and bad are clear cut choices. 

here's my .02

If the OOP is written that he needs to be away from the kids then they really should not be with him.

My amended OOP after the 30 days allowed for visitation only with mutual friends. It was a sort of weak "supervised visitation".

Your L sounds to be sort of ambivalent and going to you for the lead when really she should be advising you.

Personally I would tell her to go the court house and file today.

If you want to have visitation only at the parent's house with Dad then that needs to be written in otherwise I think you are violating the order already allowing him to be with the kids ?

If you don't want him near them then enlist a sitter or a neighbor that can take them to soccer or ballet and keep them away from the drama. I would do that.I did that with my girls. Babysitters are worth every penny when the other option is a BPD parent that is dysregulated and potentially dangerous.

On breaks, he typically would be at home with them. I sometimes take a day or two off to be with them as well.  Other options would be daycare, which I am paying for this week.  Or, I would have a family member watch them. I have a few options.

Exactly.  I know I need to continue to show I am reasonable but I am very concerned about my situation and making sure they are okay, especially after last night and previous episodes.

I also was told that he received a court appearance for criminal court.  Criminal charges were not filed.  I left a message with the DV center to see if they can look into this.  

M - that's what I thought, it would be a violation.  

Yes, you need to clarify if there will be visitation or not. If not, then don't have them with him for as long as the order allows.

This is my -- talking from the gut--- opinion so others may disagree but your H is dysregulated, he is getting some kind of support from his parents and is most likely behaving oddly and telling the kids and his parents all sorts of strange things.

Personally, I would enlist sitters and try to keep all visits if so included within the order-- with him supervised- spelled out- to the hour and to the day.

No picking them up from school, no surprises.

You need to channel that inner single Mom right now and not depend on him. It will be easier in the long run... .   really. But right now it is so much about filing the right paperwork and just keeping track of what your L is doing and direct your L as best you can to act in your immediate best interests and not keep trying to bargain with his L and with him. It does no good to bargain with a BPD parent with no consequences.

Mamachelle - thanks for getting back and for your input.  I agree that he is very dysregulated.  He is definitely getting support from his parents and in fact, he is most likely having them take care of the kids.  He's even trying to get me to agree on a Wed. through Saturday custody plan via text. 

Can you explain what would supervised visits mean so I understand it better? How does the OOP work with the visits? We include the plan in it?  She said we could work out a plan before the court date. 

I have to keep in mind that the kids safety and mine is our number one concern here.  I want to establish good guidelines now so things are easier down the road. 

Sparkle

I agree with mamachelle.  Allowing your h to have the children at this time is sending mixed messages.  I would find someone else to care for them.   How old are the children?  :)o they understand what is happening?  Are you able to communicate with his parents?

I do not know where you live, but in some states victims have the right to file charges.  If they choose not to, the County Prosecutor can still file criminal charges on behalf of the State.  This is done in circumstances where police and the prosecutor believe a crime has been committed, regardless of what the victim says.  It does not require your permission.

Ok- aieeee I will do my best but I know there is more and better info out there about how this all works.

2005- post his attack on me and after D was filed-- In my extended temp OOP my L wrote in child support as well as a provision for them to see their dad every Saturday and Sunday from 12-5 at a  mutual friends of ours. I dropped off and picked up. This is not true supervised visitation but it is something that can be legally recognized and written in to a temp order but for long term would probably not fly. Then again, I heard someone here recently had filed that all visitation with BPD Mom be at the grandparent's house and the judge signed the order.

In 2009 I sought--  Counseling for BPD dad as well as Court Ordered Supervised Visitation This is more serious and involves special centers where Parents meet with the children. I believe there is a charge as well to pay the supervisor. I was trying for this with my kids BPDDad after he physically abused my DD, then 9 and subjected both DD now 13 and 16 to various abusive and neglectful situations. Dad never complied and fled the state rather than go through it.We had a GAL (Guardian ad Litem) appointed and so this Court Supervised Visitation was a much more serious thing. Your DV counselor can give more information as can your attorney as can people here but I am trying to help you quickly. :)

Kids are 2 and 6. No communication can be done with his parents. In fact his mom's behavior is similar to his. The DV counselor told me that I could file criminal charges, but instead we went with the OOP. I have a call in to the DV center to see if they know what happened.

Great job so far - are the kids back with you now?

Check with the DV cousellor about supervised visitation arrangements for your area. I'm in Aust, but ours was set up through a centre that video recorded the entire 2 hour visit and had separate entrances for the father and the mother so that there was no chance of a disturbance and the kids were completely protected. The kids loved it - video games, board games, cool equipment - lots of fun. They were 2 and 4 and didn't even know that they were being supervised. It was relaxed for them, not for their dad.

Second stage was outside of the centre with an accredited supervisor. She would pick up the kids from me, transport them to the father for his 2 hour visit, stay with them the entire time and then drop them off to me at the conclusion of time.

Stage 3, my kids have supervised changeovers at the supervised centre so the visits are for 4 hours with the dad only, and return through the centre. Separate entrances, recorded start and end times and the staff observe his behaviour and demeanor. Rates are about $6 per parent but my orders state that N/BPDxh is responsible for all charges.

From what I have read Sparkle, there is no way that I would allow unsupervised visitation with your kids dad at this time. I would speak to the DV counsellor and see who they recommend. It's really hard to change the status quo and if you don't set the precedent now to best protect them, it will be impossible to undo later.

Every assessment we have now still comments on my demeanor (terrified of N/BPDxh) in the very first court appointed family risk assessment. I believe the kids have a better relationship with their dad now due to the hoops he has had to jump through. I still worry every minute they are with him, but I know that I have done everything in my power to make the situation as safe as possible for them.

Good thoughts from Kormilda and others -- once you make a DV claim, it's important to be consistent. If you say the father is a danger to you and the kids, and then say yes they can spend two days with him, you will not have credibility with your statements going forward.

Even if he has not been threatening to the kids, court is going to escalate his behavior -- that seems to be fairly standard among parents/spouses with PDs when they hit the court system. The stress makes it hard for them to function. N/BPDx was frightening and abusive toward me (especially) and emotionally/psychologically/verbally abusive toward S11 when we were a family, and then after date of separation, it went from eerily quiet to psychotic/manic rages that traumatized S11. Right now, I have S11 for 96% of the time. N/BPDx only sees him for 4 hrs Sat and 4 hrs Sun.

Ask for the most you can get because it will be whittled away at through negotiations. You will have to make some amends because your L will want you to appear reasonable, but at least start off strong. It sounds like your L is letting you lead, and that can be hard for nons because we aren't typically strong at being assertive and we let ourselves second-guess our instincts.

Hang in there   we're pulling for you

LnL

Kids are not back tonight. Okay, this helps me focus on a goal and I want to be consistent. I requested the kids be home tonight and he is not complying. We are filing for the OoP tomorrow first thing. I have to review the document. I will check about the supervised visits with my center. I'm curious about how this works. Both my counselor and L said its not good to abruptly take the children away from the mom.

I talked to my kids on the phone tonight. He has told my oldest that I don't like daddy anymore. I haven't spoken to her yet about the D. I couldn't say much but I told her I loved her very much. I think someone said on the other thread that he'd be doing this. How do I handle this?

Lnl- when you say start off strong for what I ask, what does that mean? Can you give an example?

So thankful for everyone's support here!

Hi Sparkle!  Hang in there.  Some of this is really difficult and other parts are just difficult.   

How to talk to your daughter... .     Depending on your daughter's age and maturity, you might explain that it isn't as simple as "you don't like him anymore."  What a jerk to say that to her!  Kids (especially older kids) internalize just about anything, so she has got to be wondering what would happen if you "don't like HER anymore."   You need to make her understand that the relationship is very different here.  Parents are a type of partner.  Both are equal and if one treats the other badly over and over again, the other partner can say, "I am not going to take that behavior anymore."  You can explain that this does not mean that you suddenly don't love him.  It just means that you won't live in that situation anymore.  He had a responsibility towards you as well and he is unable to live up to that responsibility.

Remember being in grade school?  Best friends break up with frightening regularity.  Sometimes they are back together in a recess or two, other times it is forever.

Your children need to know that this is not at all the same thing.  You will not stop loving them or leave them, even if they mess up sometimes.  That is because they are your children, not your marriage partner.  You have a responsibility towards them and they can rest secure in the fact that you will live up to that responsibility, even if you don't like how they act all the time.

SBW - great suggestions.  He is awful for saying that to her.  So his L yesterday asked him if he could return the kids and he told him no.  He had plans today. So now I need to revert back to my safety plan to make sure the kids are not around him when he gets the OoP. 

Also, children are prone to feeling that they're the cause of the problems because the parents are fighting over the kids.  Yet they may not share that sense of guilt, they may not even know how to verbalize it.  Anticipate that and ponder how to deal with it.  It would be good for the children to start counseling to help them with their feeling and the new situations and pressures they'll have to deal with.

Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison was recently revised and is excellent when dealing with alienation and involving the children in the blaming and blame shifting.  The introduction is especially powerful.  It states that the old advice to take the silent high road is wrong, you need to deal with the issues and conflicts, not ignore them or stay silent.

For the benefit of those who haven't read Divorce Poison yet, here's an excerpt from the introduction... .  

Sparkle

Good luck today my dear.  I hope things go smoothly.  You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Thank you -M.  Right now the OOP states that I am seeking custody.  There is nothing about supervised visits yet. Does this sound right?

Sparkle

I am sorry, I do not think I can advise you on that.  You need to do what you feel is best for you and your children. Your safety and theirs is paramount.  What does your L suggest? 

I am also sorry things have been so difficult for you.  Hopefully, they will get better.  Keep your chin up and take care of yourself and your babies.

The first step is the hardest.  Your path before you will be a hard one, just like ours were/are, but going forward, taking each subsequent step won't feel as monumental and overwhelming as that first one.  Once the legal system kicks in, whether protection or divorce, a lot of the current issues will be handled or at least addressed to some extent.  There will still be bumps along the way, some really doozies, but they'll be manageable.

There are various types of supervised visitation.  Some agencies provide a framework but usually the supervised parent is charged an hourly fee.  It's hard for that to continue for any extended length of time.  I don't know if the court would see supervision as being needed.  Court may order it at first, then have a social worker evaluate whether it is needed.

Also sometimes family members are stipulated as supervisors.  In your case that won't work and should be avoided if he wants the supervisors to be his parents since at least one of his parents behaves poorly as well.

In most cases the court expects supervision, if enacted, to be only temporary, figuring the immediate conflict will lessen over time and the poor behaviors will improve over time.  If some steps such as counseling are ordered and met then court will want to phase out or remove that restriction and be reluctant to reinstate it if there is a behavioral relapse without going through the courts all over again - expensive and time consuming.

For whatever reason, the agencies and courts generally, by my experience, don't figure exposure to some bad behaviors is all that bad and in need of continuing supervision.  (When I consulted CPS in my area, they saw my then-spouse raging at me in front of our child as apparently not 'actionable' and told me to call back if then-spouse started directing rants and rages toward our child rather than just me.)  To a limited extent that's a proper perspective since we can't shelter our children from literally all problems and stresses or we'd risk them growing up as unprepared for the real world.  The problem is that the agencies and court ignore a LOT of poor behaviors that don't rise to the level of their 'actionable' criteria.

Sparkle13-

At this point, you need to get your kids back.

What is going on with the visitation as per your attorney?

Something needs to be spelled out now regarding contact (none) or visitation (set schedule) or else he can pick kids up from school or daycare.

It can also be entered in with your divorce case as an emergency motion I think if the OOP is already done.

Talk to that L of yours as she seems to be leaving huge gaps here... .   I wonder if she is friends with your H's lawyer? This happened to 2 friends of mine in their divorce cases. Not fun.

ForeverDad and LNL and Kormilda and MammaMia and others I may be leaving out are giving you great advice.

I think in the bleary eyed early days I was saying to my 5 year old when she said similar things

"oh I still love your dad honey, I just don't LIKE him very much anymore. I want the best for him. We just can't live together any more."

Lots of hugs and reassurance and just sitting together reading and playing at the park. Anything to help keep you grounded.

You are doing great. Just keep pushing.

mamachelle

Getting the kids back is my absolute priority. My L knows this as well. This is the worst feeling to have to go through this and put them through this.  We just completed the affadavit. We are requesting many things including a mental health check along with the stay away order. Looking back I blocked out that he really has done and said some truly damaging things.  He has made suicide references  telling me just to take care of the kids because he wishes he weren't alive.  No person who acts this way should be around children.  Right now we are requesting no visitation. It's too scary of a situation to put my children in the hands of someone like this.  I'm going with what my intuition is telling me and for a very long time, I've felt this way. 

This is very difficult so I really appreciate everyone's replies and support.  Even filing today, I feel very fearful, unsure and nervous about how he is going to react, will he come after me, what will he do.  I will be meeting with my counselor next week. Things are pretty black right now but I also am starting to deal with alot of fear that I've had for many, many years.  That is a very good feeling.  I agree that things to keep me grounded will be very helpful.   I'm really trying hard to take one step at a time and making my children priority. 

You are doing the right thing.  Absolutely.

None of this is easy but you will find as others have said too, that you're reactions will be better as time goes on. The journey to start listening to your inner voice after shutting it down for so many years is really hard. You will probably constantly question how doing X might cause Y, P or 3 - but no one can guess how the N/BPD person will react.

Think about your area of influence and act comfortably within that - you know what's right and what needs to be done.

Don't overthink what might happen. It causes so much pain and the possibilities really are endless.

Trust yourself.

If you don't trust your L, or are questioning the response, have an open chat with her about how you feel and where you think their might be gaps, ask her to explain her point of view. If you haven't already, get a copy of the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder [Bill Eddy Author] and share it with your L.

Education is key. And breathing, don't forget to breathe and try and find some peace in the chaos.

Sparkle, it is okay to protect yourself and one of your major responsibilities to protect your children.  It isn't your fault that you are between a rock and a hard place with him.  I'm sure you would have preferred a happy, stable home. |iiii

Yay-- I finally have them! After a very long, exhausting  week, the children are now with me! I picked them up today. They were so excited to see me. 

So of course there was a part that didn't go so great. My L advised me to ask H  for our home safe. He took it. He texted me accusing me that I took them. We went over this a month ago and he said he moved them before his surgery. When the girls ran out, he gave me their bags and handed me my papers. He told me I can't have the kids papers because he has legal rights! I simply disengaged immediately... .   he was clearly mad at me.

I am more at ease tonight for sure.

I'm so relieved for you!  You must feel like having a dance party!  Or sleeping well for the first time in several days.

Yep, when my H moved, the first thing he wanted to take was ALL of our paperwork.  Realizing this, I grabbed my files out of the file cabinet and hid them.  So I have my paperwork and most of the kids' stuff.  I also, not by my planning it, have some other, vital paperwork that I needed to prove ownership of certain assets and that he has a BS and can support himself.  God is good!

Sparkle

Awesome!  hug your babies tight tonight.  I will bet they are happy to be home with their Mommy.

Was he served with the OOP today?  I would seriously encourage you to change the locks on your doors for added protection.  

I hope you get some well-deserved rest, you and the girls must be exhausted. 

I'm thrilled for you Sparkle!

My cynical side always questions whether the N/BPDxh wants the kids out of spite/perceived fairness, but because they don't have the skills to parent and haven't done it before, maybe they can't cope?

Guess we'll likely never know the reasons, but so happy the kids are back with you.

Take care and goodluck with the next steps too.

That's great news -- what a relief. Do they seem to be doing ok? How are you doing?

About the kids papers. There isn't a pressing need for them right away, is there? I'm guessing that you mean birth certificates, SSN, and passports?

For now, maybe you can ask him for copies, and then during your custody settlement, if you get sole legal custody or primary guardianship, make it explicit that you should be awarded the originals.

Yay!     

It was very much a HUGE relief for me!  The kids are doing wonderful!  I'm doing better and slept a little better last night. Although we were up pretty late,. My oldest keeps saying how good it is to see me.  My youngest is too young to really understand it all but she was so happy too.   

It's not urgent at all. With the papers it's the SS cards, title, I believe the deed to the house, my vehicle title, and of course the bonds for the girls that he's accusing me of taking.  I'm just learning about how this all works so I'm not going to worry about it right now.  It's just the whole theory behind it as to why he's keeeping it, to show his control and how unreasonable he is.  So the affadavit was dropped off yesterday and hopefully I will hear today.   I'm not sure when or if he will be served the second OoP.   This is a complete affadavit that is requesting different things including the OoP. Maybe that would happen next week?  I was told if I am granted occupancy of the house I could change the locks then.

Kormilda - that is so true with him.  He hasn't shown much parenting behavior before the D began. Now all of a sudden he's pretending to be this incredibly awesome new father.  I doubt it will last.

MamaM - yes, I am very exhausted. I really haven't slept well in a very long time with him in the house.  Once the locks are changed I think things will be much better for me as we move forward.

SBW - yes!  We love dance parties!  It was so great to finally get them back.

Question: What items should he be taking?  He can still get into the house and he is taking things. I noticed he took the table his parents bought the kids.  Should I start making a list of items I notice are gone?  Some of the stuff I don't care about. 

Take photos or videos of the entire house, including contents of drawers and cabinets, ASAP.  You do need to document and track in case that information is noteworthy later.

Accept that some stuff is gone or disappearing.  Yes, it's a shame that he took the children's table.  Yes, it's partly a statement to you that he can do what he wants, but I figure he'll claim his parents bought it and he took it so that the kids can use it when with him.  Hard to counter that.  You'll have to decide where to pick and choose your battles, not everything can be challenged or is that crucial.

Meanwhile determine which sentimental items are most important to you and transfer them to a safe location he can't access until you get better security.  Secure or make copies of legal documents and account records.


This is typical, it's an exaggerated emphasis of the human tendency to want to put our best foot forward.  A mask of seeming normalcy, involvement and concern.  In time it will falter and fade but for now he has to put on a show for family, public, court and his own neediness to control.

Sparkle

Ask your L what he is legally able to take and how to safeguard your personal belongings.  He will definitely need his

clothes, etc. and is entitled to them.

You just do not want to come home and find your house empty.  I really would change the locks as soon as legally possible.

That may sound paranoid... .   but better to be safe than sorry.

I don't want to sound like a total cowboy here -- I'm actually a rule follower in most of my life, to a fault.

But there is this weird area in family law where things are legal, and you must do those things or else you face consequences. Then there are things that are legal, and people don't follow those rules at all, and somehow everything seems to work out just fine.

If it is your safety -- changing the locks -- and he is taking stuff out of your house, then ask the L  "When people in my situation have changed the locks before being told they could by the court, what were the consequences?" Find out if your L thinks the court will tolerate your desire to feel safe, even though you don't have legal permission.

My L never told me it was ok to take half of everything, but she told me in other ways that it was common, and she indicated that the courts just shrug and get you to do a financial affadavit. He will have to account for the stuff he has taken, but it will only be given Craig's list value. Something that cost you $1000 will be valued at $100, for example.

When I was at your point in my separation from N/BPDx, everything I did felt aggressive and radical. Now I look at those actions and see them more clearly as reasonable, strategic, and smart actions that helped me take care of my own interests, which included what was best for S11. It was radical for me to hide with S11, and it was very radical to re-enter our home and take half of the furniture. I didn't even get a slap on the wrist for that.

Always good to check with your L, of course. 

Livednlearned has a point.  The old family court saying does make sense in a way - Those misbehaving seldom get consequences and those behaving well seldom get credit.  A corollary is, It's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission.

What that means is that except for some gross actions and certain technicalities a lot happens in family court cases that never gets much of a reaction from the court.  So the question is, do you feel the need and ability to be the slightly misbehaving one in this limited aspect?

The problem is that we generally don't know what courts really care about or react strongly to.  That's where a lawyer comes in, they can generally think like a judge does or has had experience in the past whether a certain action will trigger a judicial reaction or consequence.

Due to the minimal amount of data that the courts want to put on the record (appeals of court decisions generally can only reference what's on the record) it is evident the courts want the divorce to end without a clear winner or clear loser.  Hence they don't like to point fingers unless they really have to.

In your case, if (1) your spouse is not staying there anymore and (2) you've got fears about your spouse, it's not unreasonable to change the locks before getting the pending paperwork rubberstamped by the courts.  I won't say that it's right or wrong, you can decide, with or without your lawyer's input.

What might happen if you do change the locks?

• Spouse may break in anyway. (not nice, keep the 911 number handy)



• Spouse may have his lawyer protest. (may not go far since spouse isn't living there any more)



• Court may order you to give spouse a key.

Notice the second point.  If he's not sleeping there any more, you may have de facto residency, though informal, not (yet) court ordered and spouse can contest it.  If you have the 'residency' even if not official then you could maintain that you can change the locks and not give him a key until a court states otherwise.

Notice too that it's unlikely for you to end up in jail for merely changing the locks.  Yes, spouse may call a locksmith, however a locksmith, if aware of the separation, would likely be unwilling to get in the middle of the conflict.  Yes, spouse may get the police involved.  The police will pressure you to lower your guard, they are after all trying to defuse the immediate situation.  All you have to do is say you don't feel safe with him entering unescorted (police offer "peace visits" for just such circumstances to collect personal items) and likely they won't push any more.  (IMHO as a non-professional and non-lawyer.)

I haven't heard anything yet regarding the order to show just cause. Yesterday he talked on the phone to the kids. He told my oldest that if she wants to come over she doesn't have to ask me for permission and she should call him and he will come and pick her up. That is crazy! So if this happens I am guessing I tell him no, the kids are to stay in their residence in order to stay consistent with my DV claim and the new order, correct?

He also was asking her a zillion questions. I could tell the reason behind it wasn't because he had a true interest. He said he will call every night at that time.

I also asked the DV center about the criminal charges. She said they could be coming from the police. I could call and see if its in relation to my report. If the OoP gets approved he would be given those papers as well.

At least we all slept in today after this week... .  

It's very likely that the criminal charges are coming from the police -- it's different depending on where you live, but in some states, law enforcement presses criminal charges separate from what you may have filed. Many DV victims change their minds (sometimes they get recycled, sometimes they are too afraid), and in general law enforcement do not want to be called back to the same house for the same reason over and over and over again. So they file criminal charges and may call DV survivors to testify. In some jurisdictions, failure to testify on behalf of a criminal charge against your abuser can be considered a crime itself  :'(  It's very messed up. Not saying that will happen to you -- it's different everywhere. Unfortunately, DV is so common and law enforcement and the courts deal with it in different ways, sometimes begin aggressive about prosecuting it as a crime can endanger the DV victim even more. Especially if he or she is put in jail for not testifying.

Once you start looking closely at family law, you realize how blunt and unfair an instrument it is for resolving human conflict.

Dear Sparkle - It is all about control... .   his need for it and your escape from it.  Keeping that in mind has helped me defuse many ugly situations with my ex.

Sadbutwiser- very true. I keep telling myself this- that essentially he is losing control. This evening he talked to the kids. He asked my oldest five times if she had a nice day, who we went out with, did we go out to lunch, did we go to dinner. C'mon, he is trying to find out what I'm doing with the kids. He has no interest in them. After he asked me if he could take them tomorrow. I told him I have plans. He threatened that he has legal rights and he's going to do something about it. I simply refused to engage.

Sparkle

Keep up the good work!  Do not engage... .   that is what lawyers are for.

 |iiii  Keep walking Sparkle.  You are at an interesting phase.  He hasn't really figured out that you have figured him out.  It can be fascinating to watch.

That's so true. It's one of the parts of coparenting with a BPD ex that is so surreal. You are going to change, but he won't. And he won't understand that you have changed. Being so close to mental illness is fascinating, altho very tragic and said, too (goes without saying!). Made me very philosophical about what reality is and isn't.

Unfortunately BPD "reality" will never on the same level as ours.

In order to deal with them effectively, we need to think like them.  Anticipate and rationalize how they will react, and then tailor our response to try to avoid that reaction.

It is like living in two parallel worlds, isn't it?  Perhaps reality varies depending on how you view it

and interpret it.

Thank you for the wonderful words of encouragement!  I am very thankful for all of my friends here!

SBW -  Interesting comment.  Keep walking and moving forward is what I need to do. All of my energy that was put into him and trying to help him, fix him and that constant fight is now being put into myself.  I felt a bit of relief this weekend with him not near me.  I even felt a slight bit of empowerment which is new for me.   That's true.  He hasn't figured it out yet but this past weeked I can tell his energy changed.  Last night's conversation with the kids was more subdued.  He is trying to get the scoop as to what my every move is while he is losing control quickly.

I discovered he took the power cord to our tv. Another method of his to 'punish' me so I wouldn't be able to use it.  Too bad I already got a new one.  Still waiting to hear on the status of all of the paperwork.

This would be something good to use as an example of how the separation went down(hill).  Some of the people involved in your case won't be moved by his innuendos, insinuations, subtle retaliation, blaming, blame-shifting, bad-mouthing, ranting, raging, etc but hearing that he stooped to the taking the TV's power cord may get through to them.  Seemingly minor but very revealing.

:) :) :) :) lol

Thatagirl!  I changed my own spark plugs, air filter, oil and got my car smog checked - all without his input.  It passed!

He took the weed wacker.  I asked for it back and asked to borrow the chain saw.  Nice!

Sbw-- Wahoo! :) For a split second I felt a sense of empowerment.

Paperwork is still at the court. I followed up and it sounds like it was something administrative that is holding it up. My L told me not to discuss custody or make arrangements with him. He tried threatening me over the weekend and said he has legal rights. He texted me he's picking the kids up for an overnight this weekend. He told my oldest she doesn't have to ask me to go with him- that she can just call him and he'll pick her up! The anxiety started for me; she looked confused as to why she wouldn't ask me. He's completely putting her in the middle.

Ah... .   That's what's missing from our shed. The weed wacker! I knew it looked bare.

During a divorce, it is extremely important to keep your sanity. Stay grounded. The ex-spouse will try to throw you off-guard to get you say something they can use against you later.

Be calm when you ask for your tools back.  Regarding your kids, I received a really nice piece of advice from another member - stay calm and tell them you and their dad will work all of that out between you.  (even if you privately think it will end in shouting matches)

Being direct with my spouse about the things he says to the kids, in a calm way, has taken him by surprise.  I asked him if he had told the kids this or that.  He evaded. I asked again, pleasantly, more specifically.  He answered in a sideways manner.  I informed him that the things I was hearing were making me paranoid about him and explained that it wasn't helpful.  He claimed ignorance.  (this is not credible)  I allowed him to bow out gracefully, but the look on his face told me that he had to respect me.  It has been a long time since I saw that kind of respect on his face.

Of course your daughter has to obey you.  Be calm and pleasant and clear with her on that issue.  Your calm will give her peace.   

I'm making a list of items that have walked.  There are a few gifts he gave me that he took. That's for down the road.

SBW - that is great advice to let them know that he and I will work all of that out.  That will help with my oldest. I like that sense of staying calm about things. 

Last night he texted me that he is planning on picking up the kids this weekend for an overnight and returning them the next evening.  My L told me not to make any arrangements with him. Plus, having the DV claim and new OOP in the works, I have to keep consistent and firm. My intuition has been right on and I feel he is dangerous.  How do I respond to this text?

VW - yes, staying grounded is so important and I see how he tries to throw me off balance.  I believe he enjoys doing this.   

What did your lawyer say about changing the locks?  Do you have to wait until after he is served?

If you feel he is dangerous, do not let him near the children or yourself. 

As soon as I get approval for occupancy of the house, I can have them changed. I hope that is soon so I can relax knowing he won't suddenly appear.  Through the DV center, there is a resource where they will change them for me at no charge. I may have to make a consult and show them the OoP, but that would save me some money at least.   

I agree.  I am not allowing him near the children or me.  It's very easy to slip back into his world of "sweetness"  but I know his game.  I just have to remember how I've felt for years and the past few months, how scared I was for us three and that time he attacked me.  I haven't replied to his text message telling me he is taking them this weekend. I notified my L of the message and that I have not responded.  Still waiting to hear about the OoP. 

Perhaps your lawyer could approve a simple response such as this... .  

There have been increasing difficulties in our communication, actions and agreement with the separation and parenting arrangements.  It has been hard for both of us and the children.  It would best to let the court do its job and decide the parenting schedule.  As the one who has done the majority of parenting in the past and due to the difficult situation right now, I consider it best during this short period for me to continue the parenting until the court provides guidance or a decision.  You are welcome to call daily at a reasonable hour such as between hit  and hit to speak with them, but do try to avoid sensitive separation topics, as you can understand.

They are young, the calls would likely be rather brief.  Generally a period after work or dinner but not too close to bedtime works for most people.  Allowing phone contact is one way to show you're not blocking all access.  They are young enough, though, for you to monitor the calls so the conversation doesn't veer off into inappropriate topics, blaming, pressuring, etc.

Note that it is very generic, not blaming him but just acknowledging or validating that it is a difficult situation.  In other words, it's a somewhat passive message, not aggressive but also not addressing unmentioned specific concerns.

ForeverDad has a nicely worded letter there.

   I do find that a businesslike attitude with my ex is helpful in getting him to stay calm.  He isn't used to it, so he cannot respond in patterned ways, it also puts him in the mode he has to use in public.  My ex tries to move conversations into certain areas.  You can step back and see it if you don't get actually involved in the conversation.  It is like a chess game, and he is very good at board control, but also very predicatable. My every move is to neutralize so that he cannot steer the conversation.  Hope this helps.

Great suggestion FD. Very helpful and that helps me to reply with a neutral business reply. Almost like bringing it down to my level-headed level. Instead of feeding into his drama and conflict.

I would respond in a professional manner, much the same as I would any client that I didn't know that well.

A few times my N/xhBPD would rage at me for talking to him as a client instead of my (then) husband. He was offended that there was no emotion and I think it was the first time he realised that I wasn't going to be the same old Ms-nice-wife and comply to his irrational demands or die trying.

To not feel pressured into a certain response to keep N/BPDxh happy was liberating for me!

just considering it means you are putting your kids and your needs first, and that's awesome! Great work!

Hi Sparkle13,

Have you seen this article yet:

"Warning signs you are dating a loser"

www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html

It has great advice for leaving an abusive relationship at the end.

Be careful of too neutral a tone to your voice or too defensive posture like arms crossed etc. Try for tired and depressed with neutral message as described above. Its funny, but it works to jam their radar---  they want to feed off your anger or newfound happiness. If you appear depressed then they leave you alone because you are useless to them. 

mamachelle

Me too. I can't count the number of emails I received from my N/BPDx calling me heartless, callous, cruel, unfeeling, cold. He has even called me an icepick. 

Except for one or two emails, all of my communication to him has been businesslike and neutral.

Another possibility is that you document that he is not picking up the kids, and you email him and cc your L and his L. Then sit back and watch the fireworks. It will cost you to keep your Ls in the loop like that, but then his L will start to see the behavior. It seems like most Ls eventually realize that their clients have a problem regulating emotions and are too impulsive to really counsel.

To not feel pressured into a certain response to keep N/BPDxh happy was liberating for me!

just considering it means you are putting your kids and your needs first, and that's awesome! Great work!

Kormilda - Thank you!  I do feel a sense of pressure right now when I respond. He's yelled at me for not responding to his chaos. I simply don't feed into the drama anymore and I know he wants me to. Obviously more control methods.  So hopefully I can get to that place eventually where I don't feel that pressure and his communications don't affect me. Right now, it's very difficult. Let me know if you have any suggestions.  

First he said that the kids don't have to ask permission and he'd just come pick them up. Yesterday's phone conversation, which ended up being very late in the night, he told them 'Mommy has to approve me to see you this weekend."  Obviously, I am not approving it at this point.  He also said he has big plans for my daughter's new room and there's lots of room in the closet for all of her stuff.  I'm sure.  I am having a tough time with these conversations.  I'm trying to block out what he says but I can tell the method behind it all.  He even forgot already that yesterday we were out at an activity that we do every week.  His true self has to come out soon.  Not surprised at all.  

I'm confused and this seems very scary to me.    Just heard from my L.  Husband's L will be served with the Order to Show just cause in the next day or so.  The only thing the judge decided on was that the children be returned to the marital residence and an attorney was decided on for the children.  I'm not sure why the OoP wasn't approved, but my L said the other items will be determined at court or on a later date. 

Sparkle

The OOP is paramount to your safety!  Is there something in place through the DV people?

I do not understand why they are not enforcing the full OOP NOW. 

Does this mean he can still come and go as he pleases and have access to the children?

M - just the first OOP - the one that is the warning so he can't harass me, etc.  He's requested to take the kids overnight this weekend and I cannot let this happen.  I think this is why I feel so confused with all of this. 

As of now, he is out of our home, but technically, yes, he has access to the house if he wants and comes back.  I have no clue if he's there when I'm away and I don't like that.  Part of the order was to include occupancy of the house so I can get the locks changed. 

I'm going to ask my L about this. 

I heard back from my L. I have to appear at court and the attorneys will meet and talk to the judge to figure out a temporary arrangement. If he and I don't agree the judge calls the case into court and issues a decision.

His L called my L and is asking for permission to take the kids overnight this weekend or during the week. How do I reply? I really don't feel comfortable with his plan. Plus I am trying to stay consistent with the DV claim. The week doesn't work due to his work schedule. My L wants me to tell her what I'm offering as right now nothing is in the works. I feel he is dangerous.

Tell him no... .   you have plans with the kids and then do something to get them out of the house on the weekend.  Do you have relatives nearby who can help with the children during the week?

Doesn't your older child have school during the week?

Okay- thank you. I feel so pressured at times.  I'm thinking the suggestion about the week is coming from my  or his L. He's at work till 6 sometimes later with a second job. Both are in school settings during the week.

I wonder if sometimes Ls do this as a way to see how serious the DV is.

If you are prepared to hold your ground and feel he is truly dangerous, then tell them that. Be prepared to allow contact by Skype or phone or whatever (supervised visitation?) -- make that part of your proposal so you are seen to be supporting a relationship between the kids and their dad. Meanwhile, show that you are also concerned about their safety.

If you think that he is a danger, say that you are concerned about his temper and want there to be a custody evaluation and recommendations for anger management before determining a custody schedule.