BPDFamily.com

 Many of us had no idea that our BF/GF had BPD when we started dating them.  What were your earliest "red flags"?

For me the red flags were:

1)  on our first date, H told me that only one of his 7 siblings had children and no others would EVER have kids.  One month later we visited his family, and 3 were pregnant.  No accidents, all very planned. It seemed odd to me that he could be so "out of touch" with his siblings and their desires.  In truth, he was projecting his own thoughts... .   he couldn't imagine HIMSELF wanting kids, so he assumed that applied to his sibs.  BTW... .   his parents now have 26 grandchildren.  How more wrong could he have been?

2) When I took him to meet some relatives of mine, I was shocked by his lack of basic manners (grabbing several sandwiches with BOTH HANDS) from an offered plate, even though there were many others present.  The "both hands" thing was especially rude, but also the taking of way too much food when others were there was really ugly.  When I told him later that that was rude, he fought with me.

3 )  When we set up our friends on a blind date that we'd be going to as well, he ended up also committing all of us to visit a relative that night.  When we all tried to tell him that that wasn't appropriate for a blind date get-together, he refused to budge and the blind date was ruined.  It was major black and white thinking.  He kept claiming that he couldn't reschedule the visit to his cousin's home, because he "committed" to the visit earlier that day during golf.  Surely, if he had called the cousin up and explained that he had forgotten about the prior blind date commitment, and offered to come the next day, it would have been fine.  But, the Black and White thinking made H think that we HAD to visit THAT night.

I ha dlots of them but I turned blind eye. I was so star struck by her beauty and pesonality I ignored them but the were there.

1. Told me she OCD

2. told me she had suffered from aneroxia

3. said her daddy was a control freak and taht she was very hard on men.

4. said growing up her sister tried to alway steal her boyfriends.

5. her mother had BPD.

6. seh didnt like being around her family.

7. all of her friends were not in her age group, not even close. and when I was aorund them they treted her like she was their daughter and she acte like the were her a parents I found that very strange. all her friends were in the 65 year old age group. she is in her late forties.

8. Irrational anger. exploded on me in the first 4 weeks over something that was so silly. I remmeber thinking then wow what a temper and this dont make sense.

9. sex was off the charts and always wanted me to hold her down.

10. always had a storey of some sort of abuse that had happened to her.

11. all of her ex's ahd done her wrong. She might admit that it ws she that did the breaking up but that tehy always did something, never her fault.

12. every man she had dated was "the one" and would ahve married him but he always did something that couldnt be explined taht cause the relaitionship to end. But she always loved them so much.

13. told me right of that that taht she couldnt do a relationship. But convinced me I had changed all that. LOL

The list can keep on going. any one of these wouldnt be a problem in itself and doesnt mean BPD but when you combined them all it screams run.

In the first months of our relationship:

1. The day after our first night together (which was soon after we met), she was turning my single-male-bathroom into a pink-lady-kind-a-bathroom, stuffing it with things I didn't know existed.

2. On a party with a lot of my friends, she didn't care to speak to anybody and was sitting in a corner looking angry all the time. At our way home she put the blame on me, because I didn't introduce her properly and didn't involve her enough in my conversations.

3. Once I surprised her by visiting her earlier than expected. She started yelling at me... .  

4. She was having big troubles if I went somewhere alone.

5. She told me she was molested by her x.

6. She told me her mother was a man-hating loner (she was right about that!).

7. She told me she had a troublesome youth.

Back then I thought there were other reasons for her behaviour and that it would pass. It didn't, it became worse.

I should have been wiser.  :'(

1. He went into a rage literally days after we have "gotten together" and didn't talk to me for hours.  Said now that we were together he "expected more from me".

2.  Put me down in front of his friends because I didn't get a joke that was said. Told his friend, "stop trying to explain it to her... .   she never gets anything".

3.  Was really rude when we got together for dinner with some of my friends.  He just sat there and hardly said anything, even when spoken to, acting bored.

4.  Never held my hand... .   he said my hands were "too sweaty".

Wow... .   reading my own words really makes me wonder what was wrong with ME back then.  If my daughter was dating a guy that acted like my H did, I would be doing everything in my power to break up that relationship.

Oh... .   and on a side note... .   on our honeymoon we went skiing and he got upset because it took a long time for me to get my boots fitted (we were renting equipment).  Somehow it was my fault that there was  long line and he took off on the slopes without me and I skied the entire day alone ON OUR HONEYMOON!

I am so grateful for this board.   I am so embarrassed to even admit that such things happened and I have never told anyone about the honeymoon incident, but I know here, everyone can understand.  Thank you all so much!

SadwifeofBPD

many of us had red flags. And it can be for a while some relief to share about.

I see also the danger to get stuck in the past. What about your present? What are your next goals?

Hi Sadwife

Finding out that others share similar experiences is an important part of the healing process.  The questions you've posted here and elsewhere seem to have provided a lot of information for you.

If you had not noticed, I was attempting in my reply to  What about "anger" that isn't "righteous" that a pwBPD holds onto? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198288.msg12232245#msg12232245) to have you look at your "situation" from a more internally focused perspective - rather than the external - your husband with BPD.  

Where do you think you are at on your journey?   I note you are living in separate apartments and so it seems you are interested in moving on, yet your focus on getting more information about how difficult BPDs are will in fact hold you back.  

Like Surnia I wonder about whats next for you.  

 

1.  He said he hadn't dated or been in a r/s for 7 years.

2.  On our 2nd date, he showed me major scars where he used to cut and burn himself as a teenager.

3.  He would disappear for awhile after we'd get close. 

4.  He mentioned how he used to sometimes drink about 20 drinks in one evening.

5.  He mentioned having been hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital when he was a teenager.

These are just a few of the  red-flag ... .  

Before we met we were close online... .   instant message and video chats.

After a month she made it clear she had been sexual with someone and had to tell me. I didn't know what to make of it but it really pressed some buttons. I oddly don't remember it well (for once) but it was the first sign.

I noticed that she was oddly competitive with me about ridiculous things... . things that meant so little... .   Like who could type faster (unreal) or when she actually said she knew more about technology and gadgetry (what?)... . funny as I write this... .   it's come to mind that 1) I am an extremely fast typist and 2) I am very tech savvy... . On both counts much more than she is.

Funny that I just realized that as clearly she felt threatened over these absurd things.

She was a nit picking pain in the butt before we met... . constantly criticizing me... . and also of interest is that after all this time of us on and off again... .   She doesn't do it anymore... . I hope it's not just in remission... .  

The criticism, the need to 'one up' me was present for a long time... . I'm not sure how it is now... . I'm seeing her again next week and it will be a brave new world now that I have started speaking to her differently and made certain things clear that needed to be said in a way she can understand (like talking to a child)

In short she is a brutally critical of people... . judgemental to the extreme but doesn't outwardly seem it... . and If I am judgmental or angry, she can't stand it! If I speak badly about someone,,it's filed away and brought up... . as if I am a bad person... .

Oh the other red flag?

You mean how she spoke to a male friend in front of me and when I expressed concern she laughed and said, "he's just a friend. do you want to see his picture?" As if he was so unappealing he would be no threat... .   The man she wound up sleeping with and disappearing with 3 months into the relationship... .

Oh yeah... .   there's that I guess. 

How stupid is this post gonna make me look?

- Brought her oldest daughter (8) on our first date.

- 2 kids from 2 different men and an abortion from a 3rd

- 37 years old with not a thing to show for herself. Even after filing for bankruptcy 2 years                  prior for being over $72,000 in debt.

- Having me over at her house with her kids after our 3rd date in as many days.

- Openly admiting on our first date she hadn't had a relationship last longer than 3 months in the past 10 years.

- Her oldest daughter (8) telling her friends at school that she was gonna have a new dad... .     2 weeks into dating her mom.

- All previous bf's were all "losers".

- A month and a half after dating was my birthday and she got me a necklace with a pendant on it and on the back she had her name, her 2 kids and mine engraved on it!

- Never had a stable career of any sort.

And those are just a few... .     did I mention she was really hot?

that was a given... .  

My sister used to tell me to imagine mine as fat and ugly and I might feel differently... .

Don't worry about me.  :)   I'm definitely moving on... .   living in another city, working, spending time with family, etc. 

I wish my BPDH had told me that he had been hospitalized at age 20.  He kept that a huge secret until 18 months ago... .   after we'd been married for over 25 years! 

Oh, and this also should have been a red flag... .   Right before I met him, a mutual friend told me that he always lies about his age... . shaving about 2 years off.  So, when I met him and he told me the fake age, I told him that I already knew his real age.  I asked him why he lied about his age and he said that he wanted to be the same age as most of his co-workers (odd, since he wasn't that much older!).   The truth was that he wanted to hide the "lost years" when he was in psychiatric treatment.

Wow.  That's a huge one!

I am still in a stage on my journey where I think it's helpful to look back, even as I struggle mightily to move forward (don't want to make same mistakes again!).  I, too, feel I'm doing pretty well considering all my ambivalence with leaving someone I love, but I digress.  Red flags... .      red-flag   red-flag

I think of more and more of them all the time; it's almost as though I've repressed all of them and am finally acknowledging truth.  We were in our early 30's when we started to date.

1.  Brought pot and a bowl on our second date

2.  Drank a lot and drank alone.  When we would talk in the evenings, he often would tell me he had been drinking.

3.  Told me that his ex GF said he was the most negative person she'd ever known.

4.  Told me he'd moved to get away from his mother, yet he still talked to and visited his mother often.

5.  Was living in a borrowed house and had had some financial troubles.

6.  Flirted with a good friend of mine when we had a double "date" with a friend of his and a friend of mine.

7.  Told me about exotic trips he'd been on with his ex but never planned any trips or dates with me.

8.  100% ignored Valentine's Day a few months after we had been dating exclusively.  In fact, I was worried that I hadn't heard from him and went to his house - come to find out he had driven an hour away to buy marijuana.

9.  Also, had no interest in spending another major holiday with me - just didn't get at all why that upset me.  I went to a party alone where everyone was with their significant others, and I had no answer for where my BF was.

10.  Was hot and cold with me.  We would spend a romantic weekend together and then he would blow me off.  Other times, he couldn't get enough of me and wanted to spend more time together than I wanted (I was and am very independent and like alone time).

11.  Feel on hard times financially about 6 months into our dating, and he moved in with me - we were dating exclusively and serious but were not engaged - I had no boundaries!

12.  Told me his mother had never liked or been nice to any of his girlfriends

13.  Got mad at me on our wedding day (still brought the incident up years later)

14.  Got mad at me on our honeymoon.

I could make an equally long list of wonderful qualities and things he did to woo me -- but I do think it's important to focus on some of the warning sides that I saw but wanted to (and did) ignore.

here is what I remember looking back 20 years ago from when we first started dating.

1. One of the first times I was at her house she had me read this chapter in a book about this woman who was sexually abused by her husband and he would make her sleep with dogs (this was soph year in high school)

2. She was shy quit and couldn't even look me in the eye

3. She would get super jealous if I would even talk to a friend that was a girl.

4. She told me she wanted to run away when she was in 8th grade

5. Wouldn't let me meet her parents or goto her house unless they weren't there

6. Lot of love/hate get together/breakups in highschool

Since the first years - jealous/clingy/would get upset if I would do anything without her.

Found out about sexual, physical, verbal, menatl abuse over 20 year period

Would try to fight over little crap - I'm not an argumentative person

Would get jealous if I or my daughters were sucessfull

never had a good dream in her life

her fantasy was to see me with other woman

pain during sex or looked at sex as her wifely duty

would get physically sick if we needed to goto her parents

hated her family - I would have to drop off their b-day cards, etc

would cut people out of her life for perceived wrongs - no matter how minor

the lists can go on and on - but looking back I was a dumb teenager to even see the signs

I would say the first warning sign was a general unreliability.  Just a simple invitation to dinner would never go as planned if at all.  Complete lack of ability often to do anything the next day she committed to the day before.  Long term explanation was that she was in multiple relationships and more than likely push pulling everyone.  Never knew what was going on under the surface until it was to late, if I noticed that unreliability with someone new I would no in future it's a bigger problem than what is portrayed on the surface.  She even bragged one night she was a master if disguise which proved to be the case big time.  She had an ego about her ability to duck and weave, truth caught up with her in the end with me anyway.

Oh boy!   Red flags!

Despite me being 44 when we met, he told me he was 36 and I felt very self conscious of our age difference.  Although I have always looked younger than my age.

When we tried IVF 2 years ago (unsuccessfully, phew) there was a problem with his dob on the system

I thought it odd, checked his drivers licence and saw he was 2 years older than he said

I didnt  tell anyone

Then his work colleague mentioned his approaching 40th birthday last year and he just froze and I just pretended I knew.

When I calmly asked him about it he said I was the one who "got his

age wrong" and he "just went along with it"!

Sadly this was a clumsy effort at trying to catch up on some of the 5 years he had spent in the wilderness deregistered and an effort to reinvent himself, he also changed his surname.

He simply tried  to bury who he had been.

Sadly, it takes a lot more than a name and age change

Another red flag

We had only known each other 6 months, went to a party, I caught up with a lot of schoolfriends, some male

The next day I received an email from someone saying they were at the party and what a good time we had kissing and that I could meet him at the gym

It was laughable so I showed my partner

His reaction was just plain weird

I suspected it was him and said I would get my IT friend to trace the email account but he discouraged me, told me to delete it and forget about it.

It was obviously a test

Chillingly I was at his place the following week and saw the fake email address of the fictitious guy scribbled on a note lad beside the computer beside rows of curious looking figures which I now know were betting odds

I have never let on

If I thought about all the red flags I would hate myself for putting up with so much for so long

I am forgiving myself and trying to move on

always wanted to be with me, alot

said the I love you after 3 weeks (i did not say anything back, it was too soon)

cared more for me than his children

started moving his stuff into my place within 3 mos

had alot of jealousy issues

had alot of anger issues

tried to have me "change" by wearing certain clothes and always painting my fingernails

ahhhh the list goes on... .  

Too late.  I am worried about you.  You've got a lot of unanswered questions - most related to validating your experience. It's an indicator you may not have moved on.  Believe me, I've been there.  

Have you seen or are you seeing a therapist right now?  If so, what sorts of things did they ask you to examine?

I didn't say that I have "moved on".  I said that I was "moving on."   After 28 years of marriage, it would be silly to think/say that I've "moved on" after a month.  lol 

Yes, I have unanswered questions.  Of course I do. I didn't know much about BPD for so long.  I didn't know much about alcoholism.  I didn't know much about depression. 

I probably will always have unanswered questions. 

Okay. You are "moving" on. What are your thoughts about engaging a therapist to help with that?

What makes you think that I haven't?   I think you're expecting too much from someone in my situation.

I didn't realize that educated professionals could have serious things wrong with them.  My family doesn't have mental disorders, so I wrongly thought that people who have such things are in mental institutions or can't manage a normal job, etc.  I had no idea that people with serious mental disorders could do well in school, graduate at the top of their class for undergrad, go on to grad school, etc.  I just didn't know about such things.  

Also, since H is an engineer and people in that profession have a reputation for being kind of nerdy, awkward, etc (at least it did 30 years ago), I just thought that H needed a little guidance on social situations.  And, again, at first he was willing to learn some of these social niceties.  

People in his profession also have a reputation for being rather stable, so that also misled me.  

(Hey, it's like the college football coach I dated a couple of times who turned out to be gay.  I never would have guessed that a college football coach would be gay.  But, there you go! )

My only real exposure to "mental disorders" was with a neighbor family.  The parents were first cousins to each other, and they had 4 children.  Only one child was "normal."   The other 3 were "disturbed" (that was the term they used.  I don't know what their real Dx was.).  However, none of them did well in school, none of them worked, etc.  They were mostly home-bound.  So, that was my idea of people with mental problems.  

So, when I came across some situations with H that struck me as odd, I just thought, "well, no one is perfect."   I thought H was just lacking in some social skills (the food grabbing), and that his lack of knowing his own siblings' procreation intents was simply "being a guy".

I remember when we were invited to dinner at a co-worker's home (H and I worked at the same company when we met), and RIGHT after dinner, H got up to leave.  He didn't know that when people invite you to dinner, you don't just "eat and run".  The social expectation is that you eat, maybe then move to the living room, chat, maybe have dessert and coffee later, etc.   But, you don't leave as soon as you finish your dinner plate!   Again, I just thought this was a lack of "social skills."  Once I explained the "social expectation," he seemed fine with learning that new thing.  Again, this was early on when he wanted to please me.  lol

I thought the "blind date fiasco"  was another example of lacking social skills.  H had told me that he had been very shy until he was thru undergrad, and only started dating when he was in grad school.  So, I thought that his wild-haired idea that sabotaged the blind date was just another example of being rather naive about dating, social skills, etc.  I knew nothing about "black and white thinking," the rigidness of not being able to see "gray areas," etc.  

H and his siblings had told me that their mom didn't "waste time" teaching them manners and such.  I thought that was odd because she was from an upperclass home (her father was a senator), she had attended the best boarding schools (where good manners were the norm).  She had been a debutante and had gone to a top woman's college, so idea that she wouldn't have shared "the basics" with her kids was weird (My T insists that MIL has NPD.).  Anyway, H seemed eager to learn manners.  He even later chided his mother for not teaching them to use a coaster when setting a drink down on wood furniture.  

Obviously, if his family had told me that H had had a mental breakdown as an undergrad, and that he had gone to a P as a child, and other various stories that I learned about MUCH later, I would have been "clued in" that I was dealing with a much more serious situation and I would have ended the relationship early on.  Heck, I didn't even learn about the college mental breakdown until 18 months ago!  That was shocking.  

I'm someone who likes to understand "what happened".  My sister (a T) says that I love to learn, so she's not surprised that I want to know more about BPD, etc.   I'm not someone who can just "close a door," move on, and never think about what happened.  Maybe if the relationship had been rather short-term, that would be a different story.  But, a person doesn't just "move on" quickly without reflection on a relationship of 30 years.  

Hi Sadwife,

To the question why I ignored the red flags:

- I was naive: the same reasons you mentioned,

- I was arrogant: I thought I had good insight in people back then,

- I was a dreamer: it all started fantastic, we were made for each other, this is meant to be!

- I probably am somewhat codependent: because of having a lot of responsibilities (I thought back then) in my childhood I always have taken responsibility for everybody. Because of that I never could set AND hold my boundries.

- I was afraid of the future.

- And last but not least: I really loved her, so I wanted to try again and again, against better knowing.

All things together: I'm not about blaming, but if somebody should take the blame for making my life miserable: it's me (I don't forget her part of harrassing and abusing me, but that's another thing).

Hard lesson, but I hope one that will bring me wisdom in the future.

For me,the reasons I ignored the red flags was my low self esteem.  I believe all the bad things he said about me.  I kept trying to "change" myself and make myself better, so that I wouldn't be dumb, moronic, uncaring, etc.

Nobody had ever talked to me the way he did, nobody had ever put me down, yelled at me, or made fun of me the way he did.  I guess I just thought that I deserved it, that I was all the things he claimed I was.

If you hear something very often, you'll start to believe it. I went through it myself: at a certain moment I did start to believe I had the narcistic tendencies she told me I had.

She 'forced' me into individual therapy for my problems, so later I could speak to her and her P about us. Strange thing, but I'm glad she did and I'm glad I did. The talking with her and her P didn't happen, because she broke up (broke me down) before it took place, but my T-sessions helped en help me: my T assured me I'm not narcistic, that I'm a normal guy, with some issues regarding his self esteem and keeping boundries and with a lot of stress and pain from this failing r/s.

So: believe in yourself and stick to that believe.

I agree with a number of your reasons.  

Along with being naïve, I thought that I could teach him what he lacked (which I thought was just the social skills issue).  

I was at a point in my life, approaching mid 20's when I thought it was time to "settle down".  He had many of the traits that I thought that I wanted in a future mate:  never married before, college educated, same religion, intact parents, family seemed normal (but I lived 2000 miles away, so really didn't know), good job, etc.

 H never called me names or anything at first.  His BPD at that point was presenting in a more limited fashion.  The name-calling began after we'd been married for 15 years... .   also when his drinking began.

This is a big one:  I was used to taking care of people.  My mom depended on me to help with the younger siblings.  I knew how to cook, clean, sew, change diapers, etc.  So, when H didn't know how to do anything, I just pitched in and worked.  Big mistake.  Also, when my dad and siblings would come over to fix things, I would ask them to show my H how to do these things, and I let them talk me out of that.  I should have insisted that they show H how.  H would watch TV or go golfing while others fixed stuff for us!

Interesting how our childhood influences our behaviour in our r/s later in life.

Same with me: I had two very loving parents, but they're big problem was: they trusted me for 100% (I was the youngest child, quiet, never had any problems, did good at school). Because of that they intervened almost never and let me sort things out myself. And I did, even when it shouldn't be expected from a child I think. That has fed my feelings for responsibility, but also my lack of self-esteem (never heard when things were good or not).

Twenty+ years later I find myself in a r/s that doesn't anything good for that weak points... .  

Another red flag that I noticed after we were married for awhile:

When we were with other couples, I noticed that the wives could ask their H's do things (such as "take that out of the oven," or "could you please set the table" or "could you move the wash into the dryer," etc), and their H's would gladly step up and do those things.  Wives could also "correct" their H's without there being any big deal.  So, if the H was asked to get the ranch dressing out of the fridge, and he accidentally got something else out, the wife could politely say, "that's not the ranch dressing, can you go back and get the ranch dressing," and that wouldn't be a big deal.  With my H, doing any of those things would have been a big deal.

When our children were babies and we were getting ready to go out.  H was dressed and ready to go, I was on the carpet dressing the babies.  To get things "moving along," I asked H to please grab some diapers and put them in the diaper bag.  H barked back, "don't give me things to do."   wow.  It was so odd that someone who was "ready to go" wouldn't be willing to help his wife get things ready for the babies so we could leave.


Unfortunately, that last listed sign wasn't evident before we were married.  That would have spoken volumes to me.

SadWife:  Same goes for my H.  Very, very difficult to ask him to do anything.  Sometimes, no problem, he would do it, but other times, YIKES! He made me feel like the most needy, incapable person because I asked for help.

And your example about the wrong dressing... .   I hear ya, there would be hell to pay if I ever told him that he brought the wrong dressing.   Somehow it would have been my fault and he would say something nasty to me in front of everyone.

Even when we are "moving on," we can often still be saddled with still trying to pitch in and work too much. We can also end up on a would/coulda/shoulda path that takes us off the healing that is our goal.  

Even though you live separately from your H, I assume you still have need for contact. There's going to be situations where you will still likely want to "pitch in and help".  There are Boundaries (https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a120.htm)

to be set - whether divorcing or reconciling.  What are some areas that you may still be inclined to be "helpful?"

My BPDw was allways wanting to help and very active, untill she decided to leave me. When I look back I think that's about half or 3/4 a year ago.

But honoustly: I just had to ask and she would do it. Not in the way I wanted it or on the time I wanted it, but she did.

Never have felt that she was lazy or unwilling to do things.

To who? My H?  I'm not doing one thing for him.  or do you mean something else.

I think that many of us are so affected by our FOO's that we don't see/know about red flags.  My FOO was very normal.  Intact family, no addictions, no disorders, stable income, etc.

So, when H and I got married, we immediately began looking for a home to purchase.  It NEVER dawned on me to ask/require that H commit to doing X amount of work around the house if we purchased a home.  Because of how my FOO operated, I just ASSUMED that spouses would be so excited and proud of their new home purchase that they would WANT to spend at least one afternoon each weekend working around the house (including outside).    Our first home was brand new.  No yard had been put in.  There was a LOT to do.  Yet, after we moved in, H made it very clear that his golf/gym schedule would remain "as is".  That meant that he had NO intention of doing anything for the house.  His comment was, "You knew that I golf and go to the gym several times a week before we got married. That's not going to change."

I was so annoyed at myself for not having the foresight to get some kind of commitment from H before we bought that home. Once purchased, I had no leverage at all. Weekends would come and off he'd go to the golf course or gym.  My parents and I were the ones who put the yard in, put up shelves and stuff in the home, etc.

I knew nothing about BPD/NPD at that time.  If I had, I would have recognized H's "entitlement" attitude.  He felt that he deserved all that "free time" and it didn't bother him a bit that others were carrying the home chores burden.  We both worked at the same place, so we both were working the same hours, so it's not like he could argue that he was working more outside the home... .   although he did try to once argue that he "earned more."   I pointed out that I only have 24 hrs per day, just like him.

Thank you for your kind and supportive words.  

Yes!   I can remember being at a friend's home for dinner, and she was trying to get everything together.  She could "bark" (I don't mean rudely) requests at her H and he'd do them.  I also remember being shocked when after dinner she was returning some food to the fridge and she (not rudely) commented to her H that he hadn't put something back correctly so she had to rearrange stuff to fit the food.  I remember being shocked because I know that if I had ever dared to criticize H for where he put something, there would have been "hell to pay."

  It wasn't always like that.  Early on, I could "correct" H.  Many times he would argue with me, but since I'm good with details and have a fabulous memory, I was nearly always right.  My sister, a T, says that H and I have a "marble game" going on.  H perceived that I had more "marbles" than he had.  H perceived that every time I was right, he had to give me a marble.  Since he thought I had too many marbles already, he began fighting tooth and nail to keep his few marbles.  So, as time went on, and I'd be right about more and more things, H began using harsher tactics to prevent me from winning another "marble".  I can remember one time when H stopped the car on railroad tracks at a stoplight (cars stopped in front of us, and cars behind us).  I told him that that is illegal and dangerous because then the car becomes trapped if a train comes.  H didn't believe me and harshly verbally attacked me.  We were on our way to my parents' home.  The subject came up at my parents home and my dad firmly told H that it is illegal to stop on RR tracks and also very dangerous.  H accepted those words from my dad (who H respected).

Anytime I had to ask my H to do something, he expected/demanded that the request be peppered with soothing statements like, "honey, I'm really busy, and I know that you're busy too, but I really need help with XXX.  When you think that you might have a minute, can you please do XXX?  I understand that you might not have time, and that's ok."   OMG... .   couples shouldn't have to talk like that on a daily basis.  There should be a developed rhythm and it should be totally ok for any spouse to (nicely) just say, "hey, can you move the wash to the dryer?"  without paragraphs of words surrounding the request.  

I talked to my sister today and she brought up an incident that I had forgotten about but was a red flag.

BPDH has difficulty figuring out priorities.  He's unable to properly designate that an important task needs to be given top priority (done first), while a lesser important task needs to be done later.  In his mind all tasks have the same priority, so just do them in the order that you "like".

For instance, if we were going to have company for dinner and the front yard desperately needs some weeding, but a bedroom closet also needs cleaning out, H wasn't able to grasp that the weeding is more important at that moment since the guests will see that, and they won't be seeing that some old clothes in a closet need to be gotten rid of. 

At the time that this flaw or trait appeared, I thought it was weird, but didn't realize how that trait would rear its ugly head over and over again.  I didn't realize that he may not be able to distinquish the difference between what is more important and what can be done later. 

I see a lot more gray area in this than a true "red flag."  Its a dynamic that takes two. 

Your sister is right, you are both playing this game of marbles.  A game of marbles requires two players.  If one of them decides to not play anymore, the game ends - even if the other person still wants to play. 

It's the same with a relationship dynamic. If one person in the relationship changes their own behavior - the dynamic (the interactions between the two people), by definition, will also change. It's important to not confuse changing the dynamics of the relationship with changing the other person - you can't change the other person you can only change your own behaviors and, as a consequence, the dynamics/interactions.

So you have some choices:

1.   Stay, and keep playing marbles (continue the 30 year pattern)

2.   Stay, and stop playing marbles  (change your end of the dynamic)

3.   Leave, and take your marbles and go home (divorce and move on)

Which way are you leaning?

Sorry, but that's not what my sister is saying.  She does not believe that we're both playing this game.  She thinks we're being affected by the dynamic.  Actually, everyone that my H disagrees with is affected by this dynamic.

She believes that my H, when completely unprovoked  (and she's been around him a LOT), flips out and is playing the marble game.

For instance, my sister was involved in this incident:  Sister and I were having a discussion (H was NOT part of the convo, but he was there.).   She and I were talking about our favorite Cary Grant movies.  She was trying to remember who the leading lady was in a particular one.  I said it was XXXXXX.   H interrupted our convo, and said that I was wrong and that the actress was YYYYY.  Sister had her iPhone with her and looked the movie up and announced that it was XXXX.  H flipped out because in his BPD-mind, he had to give me a marble (that I don't want or give a flip about.)

I guess you think that BPDs should be able to say whatever the heck they want and shouldn't ever suffer the indignity of being told the right answer... .   otherwise we're all playing a game.

Anyway, no, my sister doesn't think I'm playing the game.  She does not think I'm a willing player (or anyone is for that matter except H).  And, since she's an expert, I trust her judgment.

Hey SadWife!

Big fan of Cary Grant here. "Insanity runs in my family, it practically gallops" (from "Arsenic and olde lace" movie). ;-)

I relate to your story of creating a scene when they are confornted with their mistakes. Mistake in a ridiculous issue, nothing important, by the way. For me its exahusting to walk on eggshells all the time, being carefull cause anything may trigger them... .   Even if you are extra-careful, no guarantee all will go smooth. I still struggle with the idea of "not triggering them", of learning how to deal with them. Whats the point anyway? Is that a relationship? Where one does/ says whatever and the other is all cautious? 

I can see that you understand.  :)

H gets very upset upon learning of his errors.  I don't just mean if a "live person" tells him, but if he finds out thru another source.

For instance, if we sit down to watch a football game, and before the game starts, H announces that his team will win by X points and no one contradicts him (and maybe even says, "I hope so.", but then his team loses (and his prediction was wrong), he becomes VERY upset and I'm usually the target of his anger.  If I'm not there, then it's someone else.

My sister says that "being right" is at H's inner core.  It's his being.  She says it's running in his blood (figuratively).  He was always told that he was the "smartest person in the room" when he was growing up.  It was his "label" and the only thing that he was really proud of.  So, when he sets himself up and then is wrong, it's like his whole foundation crumbles. 

So, no one is "playing" with him.  He does this all to himself, virtually all by himself. 

Sadwife, my H too used to have a HUGE problem if his team lost.  It wasn't even about him being right or wrong... . I guess he felt personally attacked or something.

For instance, one year his team lost the SuperBowl and he was mad for days... .   at me!  Now, how could I have possibly had anything to do with that!

Yes, they do take these things personally as if a team losing or an election candidate losing is a personal criticism.

My sis says it's because of their immaturity, they've blurred the lines and kind of become "attached" to their teams/candidates/whatever, so they feel personally wronged/attacked if their team/candidate/etc doesn't win.

Hi Sadwife,

In my past days of analysis of my W's BPD behaviours, this rephrase of a well known philosophical question helped me to come to terms with my role in the dynamic - noting the word dynamic - in its use as a noun - is by definition about the interaction between "forces."

When a pwBPD rages in the forest, and no "non" is around to hear them, are they still a pwBPD?.  :)

Arguably, no, they aren't - since no one is affected.

But you are affected by his BPD, and so are your sons.  The interesting thing about BPD as a disease is its profound impacts on others - and whether others think they are playing or not, they are "in the game." - even if it's as a trapped spectator trying to get off the field.  

There's only so much to be gained by analysing the game reels of the opponent - your primary purpose needs to be to use what you know about BPD to add to your own play book.

I would argue that "yes they are still a pwBPD" because THEY are still affected by their illness.  They're still subject to impulsive decisions that can endanger them, they're still more prone to be suicidal, etc.

You see, H has "been in the forest" and he did endanger himself.  He went into the woods to find our lost cat.  While in there, he did make some irrational decisions, impulsive decisions, and almost got himself killed falling down a cliff.  so, yes, they can be a pwBPD when they're all by themselves. 

I might argue that a pwBPD that is gagged, put in a straightjacket, and is heavily drugged might be a person that no longer has BPD.  lol


It's rather insulting to imply that a trapped person somehow is "playing the game."  That would suggest that a kidnapped hostage also is "playing the game."  That's a slippery slope that you're on and it is blaming the victim.


My primary goal is to learn more about my H's "brand" of BPD to add to my playbook.  There have been recommended techniques and suggested "boundaries" that may work well for some types of pwBPD, but they aren't working wth my H. 

the last few weeks being away from him have been wonderful in so many ways.  No "walking on eggshells", no worrying that some "outside" force will upset him and then he'll take it on me (something with his job, traffic, etc).  No worrying that a mistake that he's made (losing something, breaking something, etc) is going to cause me to be the brunt of his anger.   

(Honestly, I do wonder what he's now doing with his anger.  He loses things CONSTANTLY.  and, he breaks things often (because he's not gentle or careful), and usually, I'm the target of his anger.  But, since I'm away from him, he must be resorting to something else (probably drinking more. ) 

As much as I'd really want to be permanently away from him, we really can't afford this.  I'm not confident that there are any "techniques" that would work with him.  He really never wants to be defused.  He WANTS to be angry. 

I don't know if this is a BPD thing or not, but H showed a complete lacking of social skills when I met him.  It was clear (to me) that he lived in a world without noticing the protocol around him. 

I think I've read that you took it on yourself to "correct" or make up for this deficiency.  This is the part we bring to the situation.

Once you've realized you ignored the "red flags", and your efforts to "fix" the problems have failed, the challenge becomes what, if anything, can be done about it now - if you are trying to maintain a relationship with you pwBPD.

It's where I am at, and I don't have any answers.  I love my W more than anything but some the self destructive and relationship destroying behaviors that were present at the beginning still remain. 

Right!

The problem was that while I certainly noticed the lack of social skills, I thought it was just a situation of "nerdy engineer who hadn't dated a whole lot".  H was VERY willing to learn/correct these short-comings.  If he had stubbornly clung to his "poor social skills ways" I would have been more clued-in that I was dealing with something more extreme.


A related red flag that I should have realized was more serious is the lack of "walking around smarts."   His solutions to many problems were often DUMB and short-sighted.   

  I had often heard my dad joke about highly educated people being "book smart" but lacking "common sense," so I thought that was the case with H. 

I realize now that with a pwBPD, their "solution" to many problems is whatever first comes into their heads and whatever is easiest for them.  If putting Duct Tape on the broken item works (at least for a day or two) then that's fine with them.  If going out and buying another item is easier than checking to see if you're using the appliance correctly, then that's fine with them.   (I can't tell you how many times H would definitively declare that something was BROKEN only to find out that it wasn't plugged in, or he hadn't turned it on, or he didn't have something set correctly.  He'd loudly declare it to be broken and would get annoyed if I looked at the item to see what's wrong.  He'd say, "don't look at it.  I KNOW it's broken."  And then I'd quietly go plug it in or do some super simple "fix".   

Now, you may say that I should have let him think it's broken but this would happen 2-5 times per week.  We couldn't afford to be constantly buying new stuff because H hadn't turned something on or plugged it in.

Yes. I agree with this wholeheartedly about my ex. It is a red flag that I dismissed because most of the problems were regarding himself minus me. But when he left, I was part of his endless perceived problems and his solution was to take the easiest road. Accepting responsibility for himself was too hard for him. Plus it would mean that he had to actually admit to people he made mistakes. Anything to keep his perfect healthy facade alive. So Yes, big red flag!

Another red flag was that his ex was always at fault which I believe now isn't completely True.

Another red flag was when he said we shouldn't have gotten so emotionally attached. Wth does that mean? Isn't that what happens when you reach a point of comfort to be vulnerable and honest with someone? I didn't get how he suddenly felt like saying those words after we opened up to each other and knew every secret and aspect of each other.

So sad and bizarre... .

I'm still kinda speechless on that last red flag that came too late... . a few days before he broke up with me.

Yes, I bet this happens often with ex's of pwBPD or pwNPD.   A friend of mine was married to a pwNPD and he used to say all these awful thing about his First Wife.  My friend didn't meet the First Wife until a few years after she (my friend) divorced her H.  Once my friend divorced her H over his frequent infidelities, she met the First Wife.  My friend learned that the First Wife had divorced the guy over multiple infidelities as well.  Turns out, the First Wife was a nice lady and the two became friends... . and still are today... . 20 years after my friend divorced her H.  The exH now has 5 divorces  and he's likely blaming each divorce on each wife.

Yes. I'm sure it happens a lot.

I'm seeing it unravel before my own eyes except now I'M the bad ex who's at fault. My ex had revealed that he told his new interest about us. And just THINKING about how he painted his ex before ME, makes me cringe at what he might be telling this new interest. I'm far from perfect but even my EX couldn't answer me when I asked what I did wrong or a reason for him painting me black. BUT I'm sure this new outside influence will react to whatever he chooses to portray me as.

I don't think his ex wife was an angel because several people have said that she wasn't the most pleasant person... . the exact word from everyone was that she was a B@#$%. But regardless,  I can still see how my ex could have contributed to their divorce. It takes two to make it work, right?

I cringe a lot at the thought of what BPDH is saying about me to people who don't know me.  They probably do think that I'm Attila the Hun.  My H tells them that I've been unfaithful (100% not true), and he tells then other half-truths or stories that might have a grain of truth to them but without context or the full truth, it will seem like I'm horrible. 

In your case, I would still be hesitant to really believe the people who say that the ex-wife was a B@#$%.  We have no idea if any bhityness was the result of outrageous behavior from her spouse.

I remember when my sister-in-law's NPDH abandoned her when she was 8 months pregnant with their second child.  He left for another woman.  One of my SIL's siblings actually said, "well, you know that she can be very bhity to him."   Well, I'm sure she was.  Her H was constantly lying to her about his whereabouts, lying to her about spending money (on other women!), lying about needing to work so he wouldn't have to do any childcare, was no help to her during her pregnancies, etc.  That would drive many of us to be rather "bhity".  lol

So very true.

WHY was she bhity? Very well could have been years of him possibly driving her insane with the type of behavior he's shown me in the last few months.

Just never know. He can go telling his half truths about me to this new person but I'm not worried about him painting me black to our mutual friends at all. And he very well KNOWS this. He has kept our relationship from just about everyone. So the smear campaign starts and ends in with this new person as well as himself as far as I'm concerned.