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Hi all,

I've been on the undecided board but I thought this post would be more appropriate here.

My uBPDw and I have been married for a very turbulent 8 months and her BPD behaviours became obvious about 6 months ago. She now wants to have children in the near future (ie next year or two). I'm 37, she is 32.

Can anyone suggest how I approach this subject without coming right out with it and saying "I do not want children until you have convinced me that you are emotionally stable enough to have them"?

I have made it clear to her that I do not think we are ready (i know there may never be a "right time", but our fighting is such that I do not want children at this stage). I have made this clear to her. I first told her that maybe we should leave it for 2-3 years, but I recently made it clearer by saying that I did not want to bring children into an unstable relationship. period.

The bottom line is I do not want children until I can see she is completely stable. Is it too unrealistic to expect her to ever be fully emotionally stable (from a non-BPD perspective)? Do I need to change my expectations about what I want out of this relationship? I know how much she wants children, and I wanted children until her BPD traits revealed themselves.

We're already getting into arguments about birth control, which is ultimately up to me as she thinks it wouldn't be such a bad thing if she got pregnant. I am being insistent, which for her is killing it every time we have sex, and that in itself is becoming a source of argument.

Right now, all I can see is an escalation of current turmoil x1000 if we bring a child into the equation. Added to the fact that I am far away from family and friends with no other emotional support. Not sure I can rely on her family for support either, as they are fairly emotionally disconnected from her. Now I just think that if we had children, I would be carrying the can and the whole thing would get a whole lot messier than it is.

We have tried MC but it kept turning into a blame game and made no difference to the severity of our arguing (the notion of "fair fighting" dosent exist). All I learned was not to answer back and to leave the house when things get out of hand.

The techniques on here are useful to "stop the bleeding" but how can things really improve if our BPD spouse does not address the BPD head on? Right now, I have no idea as to whether she is even aware of BPD, though she has accepted that she has anger issues and has started seeing a therapist. I can't really ask more from her at this point but I have no idea what form of therapy she is undergoing, and therefore no idea how far she is from potential recovery.

Any thoughts?

No thoughts. I think you're argumentation is right. Don't get children in a unstable household.

I was in the same situation. At first neither of us wanted children. Passing her 35 my stbxw started feeling she maybe wanted children. I then said we should speak about it, because we never wanted them, we were not stable and most of all in MY family there are illnessed that are passed over to next generations (me to blame!).

Joe/Very Scared - thanks for your replies. I know it seems like a no-brainer, but I do love her and I feel committed to her. I guess I need to know if there is any hope of a full recovery and if this is realistic before having kids.

I commend everyone who has children in a BPD-relationship. Its demanding enough being the emotional carer for your S/O.

 


stick with your boundaries and do not have children, till she gets some help and you see changes within her, and changes within her for a long time.

I think you know what you want to do, wait it out for 2 or 3 years, and see if any changes are made, cuz if she truly wants a child, she will better herself.

I am sure you have read on these boards about having children when the partner is full BPD and alot of chaos seems to follow.

and she is seeing a therapist, that is great! now lets see how long she stays in therapy and if there are any improvements.

If by fully you mean her having say 70% or more of her symptoms go away I would say that is close to impossible.  From what I read here on the staying boards the ones that get any better seem to get 10%-20% better and it is the spouse that learns to live with the BPD.

Do I need to change my expectations about what I want out of this relationship?

I think you might have to accept the fact that if you stick to this boundary you will not have kids.


I know there are things you can do to improve your living with a person with BPD but if she does not commit to getting help then I don't think you can expect much improvement.

I commend you on sticking to this boundary, I am so thankful I did not have a child with my ex with BPD, I see her own kids suffering and see a bleak future for at least one of them that already shows BPD traits as a pre-teen.

I should also mention that even if she does make some forward strides, for my ex stress always brought out the worst in her and there are many, many stressful moments with babies, toddlers and children.

good luck

Thanks guys, really appreciate your comments. I guess its a case of wait and see. All I can do is work on myself in the meantime and learn to use the tools on here more effectively.

Also, I find that keeping a diary of her episodes (and how I respond to them) helps me to keep track over time, especially as I am prone to forgetting completely the details... .

Just a word to the wise... .   hide that journal and lock it away.  My uBPDh found mine... .   ripped out a few pages and used them as material against me one day when he was mad.

My comments in the journal were very loving and caring fortunately... .   they didn't paint him black.  Mostly they commented on how I didn't understand how every time he got close he would turn on me.  Interestingly enough about two weeks later he told me that anytime that we get close it scares the hell out of him and that is why he acts badly.

Anyway.  Finding the journal triggered something. I recommend just hiding it carefully.

Allibaba

Don't do it unless everything is so stable that you foresee no big stressful events in your future.  I am amazed at how much this affected my wife, and she did nothing to let me know how I could help.  Now the kids are caught in the middle of a very messy divorce. 

Take precautions... . if you are responsible for preventing pregnancy, and use condoms... . be sure to dispose of anything that can get her pregnant... . yourself, completely... . like washed down the drain. Some guys put hot sauce in them before tossing, there are gals that don't know you that will get pregnant for support payments alone, you are married and she wants a kid and is quite unstable... . be careful.

Thanks for the advice. I know from experience that I can't rely on her to respect my wishes and so I will have to take all precautions. Its just that this is all becoming counter productive > my paranoia about it is already starting to affect our sex life and causing arguments between us.

Re journals - I keep them all on my computer. Need to be extra vigilant about that as well

Cheers

Can't tell anybody what to do, but personally I would advise against it. My ex had a daughter that was only 1 and a half, with her ex before me. It was unplanned, but I felt sorry for her daughter in the end, she would say it was good that the ex and father child wanted to see their daughter still, then the next it was I hate him taking her.

Also said she did not want her daughter confused so I had to commit to a serious relationship with her and then it all got crazy. Even a month after dumping we were in bed and she has her daughter in bed with us and I thought, this is not right and I actually felt bad for her ex.

She seemed to be a great mum most the time, but I feel her child will grow up to have issues too. The way she obsessed over her was ridiculous. To be obsessed with your child is understandable, but this was not normal in my opinion.

She would say things like I love baby,I don't want baby to grow up,also that some babies were ugly and her's was so cute. She also said I do not want her to go to school as I do not want anybody else in charge of her and she might get bullied. She also banned the parents of her ex (the child's grandparents) from seeing the child unless she was there,for whatever reason she made up to hate them.

Obviously your situation is different and not every mother would be like that... .   I just felt sorry for her daughter in the end and her ex, the father of her child.

I have two children (S5 and D1) with my uBPDh.  I think whether and when to have children is a very personal decision that only you can make.  It's certainly not the ideal arrangement to have children with a pwBPD.  There's an added dynamic because if I take the bait and bicker with my H in front of the kids, it's not only me who suffers.  I'm lucky because my H is a good dad.  Despite his issues, he lives by certain "rules" and one of them is that he needs to be a good dad to our kids.  He also is high-functioning and can be insightful at times, so I'm sure there are other situations that would be different depending on the level of functioning.  In addition, our children are young.  Although they are very defiant (my son is strong willed and my daughter is going through the early "terrible twos", I don't know if there will be issues when they get to be teenagers (more like adults) and won't follow the rules.

You could maybe wait on the decision until you've had time to practice the lessons and the responses become second nature to you.  I wish I would have done that before having children because now, with the added stress of raising a family, it's harder to make a conscious effort to use the lessons each time an issue arises.  Had I gotten them down first, I think I'd be much better off.

  Daylily

Hi Sammamish,

I was looking over this board with the intention of posting virtually the same question, so I decided to join this post instead - no intention of hijacking your post, so please please forgive me if it seems that way.

I've been dating my girlfriend for just about 3 years now, and we have a generally good relationship, I believe she is BPD although I think she's very mild, perhaps a 3 out of 10. Our relationship has been the usual up and down/push and pull but after I started to enforce the boundries things improved a lot and she learned to control her behaviour somewhat. She actually went for a period of 6 weeks without talking to me, late last year. Her behaviour has improved, slowly, over a period of time... .   baby steps... .  

She told me a while ago that she was going to want to have children, in a nutshell I told her that I would be willing to have a child with her but I was concerned about her 'moods' and I think she should 'talk' to someone about them. (that didn't go down too well with her!) Anyway, she hasn't had any major episodes for 4 months now (Yayyyyy... .   |iiii) and I'm kind of suspecting that she is actually talking to someone, maybe because she knows she needs to before we have children?

We've had a couple of small 'upsets' but nothing that can't be dealt with and forgotten about. When she gets in her 'moods', she' like a 4 year old. Pouting and resentfull, she usually clams up and doesn't want to talk, she can even turn into a semi-recluse state and just stay home and nurse her broken spirit. she is all about control.

Last week, we had made a date to go to Yoga together after work. I was a little late in picking her up from her apartment (8 minutes after our arranged time!) and she was a little tense, admittedly so was I (tense because I knew she would be upset that I was a bit late - but hey, I had to deal with traffic etc and it's not like she's never late?) so as soon as she got in my car I was hussling to leave and (apparently) I left before she her she had closed the car door properly. She gave me a nasty look and I didn't think to much of it... .   until she starts to dismiss me (Ugghhhhhh) by ignoring me when I talk to her and playing games on her phone. she continued to dismiss me for bout 15 minutes by which time I told her that if she wasn't prepared to stop, I'd just turn thecar around and take her home. Naturally, she didn't stop (expected) so I took her home and Yoga was cancelled for us. Anyway, long story short, she did (kind of) apologize later on in the evening, so that was cool.

We had lunch the next day (Friday), which was a bit tense but we survived and silly me thought that everything was OK... .   Saturday now, and I go by her apartment to say Hi and I had the weekend free so we could hang out together and have a good weekend... .   Ummmmm... .   NO. Not gonna happen. She opened her front door and then just walked away, no 'Hello' or 'Hi', nothing. So I stood there, in the doorway waiting for her to acknowledge me (we have spoken about this before) eventually (after me reminding her that it's the polite thing to do) she said "Hello' in a sarcastic voice and walked away again. Then she brings in her laptop and starts it up with apparently something she 'has' to do (B***S**t), more dismissals for me... .   she knows that I won't accept this so I tell her she can call me when she's ready to treat me better and I leave.

So I spent the weekend alone doing much needed chores around my house.  *)

All of this to say... .   how can she expect me to go ahead and have children with her if this is the way she's going to behave? Granted, she has improved her behaviour significantly over the past few months, things have actually been very good between us! This past issue is really only a  minor thing, no biggy, but in order to have children we would need to move in together (for a start)... .   what happens then? Is she going to continue wth her moods and make me live with them? Is her behaviour going to get worse? What happens when she's pregnent? Will she calm down a bit or use the pregnancy against me?

Hmmmmm... .   I have about a year to work around this.

Just a thought from a child of a BPDm -- I would spend some time reading the material regarding children of BPDmothers before you decide to have a child with her. Many of us struggle our whole lives to overcome the effects of having a mom with BPD and the effects of having a non-BPD father who did not save us/protect us from our mothers. I wish you well.

A lot of people find that they can't protect their child/children from their BPD spouse if the relationship ends.  That spouse will get at least partial custody and can make bad decisions.  She still has plenty of time to have kids at her age.  Wait and see what happens.

Sammamish,

Sounds like you already know the answer to your question... .   stand firm, do not have children with a borderline, for the sake of the children and yourself.  I had a vasectomy after the birth of our 2nd child and would not consider having it reversed for any reason (it was a few years after the surgery that I found out about BPD).  Stay strong!

I have a child with my uBPDw and really wish that we had waited a bit longer. It would've given me much better control with enforcing boundaries and other techniques. Having a child opens up a whole new suite of tools to manipulate me.

I strongly recommend that you don't make the same mistake.

Thanks everyone for your comments. It given me a lot to think amount  |iiii

I appreciate comments from everyone, particularly those of you who have children. For me, I am sure I do not want children until I see a prolonged period of stability. My w can have major tantrums every other week. Major meltdowns occur maybe once a month, though she has def improved since going to therapy. I would want to see a minimum of 6+ months of relative stability before I could say things have improved. Realistically though I will need to wait for a year or so and reassess the situation. I really want to be open and honest with my wife about all this, but all I can say to her is that I dont think we are ready to have children at this stage.

Mr Mom > thats great that your g/f has been relatively stable for 4 months, I hope it continues - do you have an idea how long you will be comfortable with the current situation (ie if current behaviours remain as they are) before you consider having children?  I'm guessing it would be difficult for a pwBPD to conceal their symptoms for a prolonged period.


S

My wife and I had two children and, outside of our getting used to each other in the marriage phase, seems seemed to stabilize--for the most part.  The sudden change strikes like lightning, my wife suddenly began to push for divorce, and almost seemed to take on an alternate personality.  Our kids are now left in the middle of a confusing mess, a living hell.  While I would never give the decision to have our two great children up for the world, my posts about what I have very recently gone through may help you to understand why you should really consider not having children while you have the choice--my four year old son has really been affected by the sudden insanity of the fall out and looks at me with teary eyes that seem to wonder when everything will be okay, like it was when his mom cared about him, again.  It breaks my heart every time I have to think about the ulterior universe that my family now lives. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198385.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198385.0)

BPD is an attachment disorder. Think about it this way. People with BPD tend to get triggered by intimacy, fears of engulfment. This is something we do not understand if we do not have BPD. This also triggers feelings of abandonment. These feelings tend to be pretty overwhelming.

Having a child is a life changing event. There is nothing more intimate than giving birth to another human being, or sharing that experience with the person you have created that child with. The father of my children does not have BPD but we were NEVER the same again after we had children. It changed both of us into different people that no longer clicked in the way we did before.

My BPDex said to me a couple of times he wished we could have a child together because it would be the ultimate bond, the ultimate way of staying together forever. In the same week he could tell the mother of his own child he wished she were dead. He didn't think he had BPD but he does say his 'depression' started around the time his child was born.

To anybody thinking of having children with anybody. Think long and hard. You take on a huge responsibility when you have children and you tie yourself to the father/mother FOREVER.

I wish I had properly considered my own and my then partner's emotional maturity when we decided to have children together.

Hello Sammamish

 

My story and experience in a nutshell, I have three with my exBPD. None were planned and I now know she sabotaged birth control at least once in order to get pregnant. I was perfect and she uber conservative church going etc... .   (according to her) 

Long story short, with each child, the 'craziness' got worse to the point that today we have shared custody and she sees them a few hours a week putting them on the bus then she is so pre-occupoied with texting the latest bf that she merely yells at them and hustles them off to get away from them. She is firmly convinced she is a good mother but even my 6 year old comments about mommies behavor. I have told folks that even animals have a better parental instinct then she does.

I dont know yours but would strongly caution you. It seems like they only get worse with children because it requires attention and dedication, something that changes like the wind for them. Women go through hormonal changes with childbirth and that only compounds the BPD issues. If she is not willing on her own to address her issues and start practicing a little empathy, I think there is a very small chance for any real change and or improvement.


I think there has been some good advice above and most of all, give it time and stick to what your demands are. Your child will be ever thankful for it. I also would strongly advise you to read "The Borderline Mother".  That book has been such a help to me in trying to raise my children in the environment that they are in with their mothers disfunction.

Me personally, if I could go back and do it over, would not have children with mine. I love my children dearly but am convinced if I had not had them with her they would have had a functioning loving mother. Something that their mother seems to be unable to do.

Good luck! I am not trying to be negative but realistic. I saw the red flags in mine but choose to believe that time and two working together can make it work. When one tries then yes but me doing 110% and her nothing did not work.

(Love the name btw, any German?)

Saw a post on the topic... . are you sure you want to be where this poster is;

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=199389.0;topicseen

I'm hearing a lot about BPD moms.  The dads have their own issues.  They are used to being taken care of by their wives.  It's hard when their children suddenly start coming first.  My BPD husband can at times be a good, caring father, but at many other times he wants all of my attention and doesn't want to do anything for the kids if he doesn't have to.

Yeah, she's been alot better over the last 4 months, no doubt. I wonder why/what for? - I'm wondering if she's talking to someone, or maybe she's talking to herself/reading some books etc, who knows? But the fact remians that she's improving - And by this, I mean she's not had a 'raging' session. There have been 'minor' incidents though, but they were defused in a relatively short period of time - I take this as a good sign because in the past they would have developed into a rage, but they didn't. Don't get me wrong - she's not cured, she can still be as stubborn as an Ox with a headache and a bad foot - but she's moving in the right direction, for now.

I had told myself that I need to see her stable (reasonably) for at least a year. As long as she can go for 12 months without raging at me, keep her tantrums under control and at least consider my opinions (she doesn't have to agree with them). So far, so good... .   fingers crossed!

Incidentally, I made a conscious and carefully considered decision to either stay with this relationship or not. Obviously I decided to stay in it, and for many good reasons - I really do love her and I know she really loves me too. We do have alot of things in common and she can be a very loving and affectionate person among many other things.

In order for this relationship to work, there had to be some "M.O." (modus operandi) on my part;

Firstly I need someone who I can talk to and confide in, someone to help keep me 'grounded' and someone who I can vent my frustrations to and discuss recent issues with. So I see a therapist who is great at this kind of thing and it really helps. I don't have any family anywhere near here or any friends who would even begin to understand this, so - a shrink it is! Anytime I feel the urge to talk, vent, justify my feelings, get grounded etc - I go to the shrink - great guy and WELL worth the money it costs!

Also, I have to understand that when things go south, I can't blame myself. When the 'blame game gun' is blasting in my direction, my 'suit of armour' is there to protect me. Her bad moods belong to her - not me. If she wants to blame, rage, insult, dismiss me - that's her problem, not mine. Which brings me to;

Boundries!; - Crucial for maintaining the 'suit of armour', amongst lots of other things.  - I will NOT put up with being dismissed, controlled, insulted, blamed when I know its not my fault (but accepting blame if it IS my fault), 'told' what to do (or wear, or say, or be).  For example - when she's anxoius or upset with me for some reason, she has a tendency to dismiss me, usually by ignoring me and playing games on her cell phone/laptop or anything generally dismissive towards me, I would ask her (nicely) to stop being dismissive (a good way to do this is to say " <what you're doing right now> is making me feel dismissed) and suggest we talk calmly about the problem or how/why she feels this way. If she doesn't stop with the dismissals, I'll ask her again to stop and say to her that if she doesn't stop, I'm going to leave/turn the car around and drop her home/go to the <thing> on my own/do it myself, etc etc... .     I give her as long as I feel is necessary to accept my request, in her own mind (usually around 30 - 60 seconds) and if she doesn't stop, I don't ask again, I just do what I said I would do without hesitation. I try to stay polite and I'm very carefull to try NOT to give her amunition for future resentment (make sure I drop her home and see that she gets inside her front door OK, say goodnight nicely, etc). Then I just leave her alone, to stew in her own mess that she created in her own mind. Sure, she blames me (or tries to), she may not speak to me for a day or two, but that's her loss, not mine.

Another thing I'm currently working on is to live my life for me. I have my own friends, my own hobbies etc. My g/f and I were supposed to start going to yoga last week, but lo & behold, she got anxious (because I was 8 minutes late picking her up after work) and she dismissed me on the way, so I turned around and dropped her home. So this week, I didn't invite her - I went to yoga on my own (I'm a yoga virgin BTW!) I loved it! Had a great time! I'm going to do this every week! Next week, I'm going away on a long weekend break, staying at a nice hotel and meeting up with a few good friends for some car racing action. Also planning a vacation RVing in Texas with my son (13) for August, white water rafting, nitro boat racing, cowboy horse-riding, camping, etc... .   :) sweeeeeeeet!

Anyway - it's Sunday and the couch is calling me. Hope you all have a good week.

'relative' stability may not be enough.  you'll still walk on eggshells.  definitely give it a period of many months.

Thanks for your thoughts/experiences. I am pretty clear about what I should do and right now her current dysregulation is making me even more resolute. She has been downright belligerent these last couple of days! I just couldnt imagine bringing children into an already difficult situation. Though I also realise that I am 50% responsible for making an effort to improve the relationship, especially as she has been going to a T, in addition to practicing SET and  Momtarra, those are v positive steps you have made, I really need to start seeing a T again myself. Also I think I am way too flexible with my boundaries sometimes... .

SlimMiller - thanks for the recommendation. btw the name samammish was chosen for me by these kind folk at bpdfamily : )

Well, my 'staying' days were the 15 years before I joined here.  By that time we were separated.  The 7 years since then have been focused on my parenting.  My friendships have suffered, so has my religious efforts.  I'd like to share a bit.

When we married I/we were in love.  Yet, from the beginning there were hints of problems.  Not major, many I didn't even identify until looking back years later, but enough for friends including the dear friend who married us to tell me she was "high maintenance".

She had conflict with co-workers.  She claimed to have strange symptoms that weren't quite identifiable.  The only thing everyone agreed on was tendonitis.  Thyroid issues?  Epstein Barr?  Lupus?  Claims of minor feelings of seizures?  I had a relative with fibromyalgia so of course she got diagnosed with it and then promptly never mentioned it again.

I had been a religious volunteer for over a decade before we met.  There were enough problems in the next 7-8 years that I felt we had to leave.  Huge change of life for me, but I did it for her.  At her new job, she came home complaining about her co-workers.  Another job, she complained again, even filed a grievance against her boss for something truly minor.

Would I have described her as BPD?  It was all small stuff, so maybe not.  But she did talk of suicide once in a while, over the years her periodic rages worsened and were more frequent.

After over 10 years of marriage, we talked about having a child, even went to a reproductive specialist.  She got pregnant after a HSG test (afterward we were told 1/3 get pregnant with just that test).  I had thought that she'd be happier with a child, able to enjoy her life seeing through the eyes of discovery of her child.

Sadly, that was half true.  She saw through the eyes of her child, yes, but saw her own childhood past.  She became paranoid over probable abductors behind bushes, abusers in stores, day cares and schools.   She drove friends away, my family (hers was already mostly estranged) and then I was the only one left and I saw I was next.

Toward the end the only time I could really expect her to be nice was when I was ill.  Sadly, I didn't get sick very often.

As much as I love my son - and I would never want to lose him - I have to admit it was not a good decision to have children.  It amplified her problems, issues and fears.  In her case it made her relive the bad in her childhood.

Whether my ex has Paranoid, Borderline or whatever to varying extents, I can't say, so far as I know no one has diagnosed either of us.  But having children (such as for someone in my circumstances) doesn't fix problems, it just makes the current ones vastly more complicated, especially if the marriage later implodes, a real risk for members here.  What can maybe reduce or balance the risks is her being in therapy and - most important - whether she is applying it in her life and improving.

ForeverDad, thanks for sharing your story. I have read many cases where BPD symptoms were not obvious at first, but only become more pronounced when children arrived. Most of us have seen red flags of some sort, but its impossible to foresee the sort of physiological changes eg post-partum depression and hormonal changes that childbirth brings. Interesting as well that the arrival of children brought back negative associations with your w's own childhood.

I guess my w's behaviour has become so obviously dysfunctional that she is not emotionally mature enough to take care of a child. If only I could make this clear to her without labelling her, or making her feel as if she is the one with the problem (I know I have my own issues).

Sounds to me that you have a great bargaining chip- as unkind as calling a potential child that is- but honestly telling her to get more help first- if the desire to have a child is strong enough... .  

Just be warned, however, that a pwBPD could agree to anything in the moment and then not follow through with it.  Of course this can vary from one person to the next, so I can't say in your particular situation.

In my case, my uBPDw and I had a big blow-up just as we were working on getting pregnant, working with a reproductive specialist.  If I had only been aware of BPD back then, I might have realized that all the crazy-making things I was seeing were probably related to a personality disorder, perhaps amplified by hormones, rather than just the hormones themselves.  She was on pretty heavy doses for fertility procedures, poor woman.

She gave me an ultimatum related to the topic that triggered the blow-up.  It was unreasonable, but I did agree to a modified version of it.  In hindsight, I should have had better boundaries.  But the situation was getting so crazy that I started to withdraw.

She picked up on this and pleaded with me to talk with her.  I finally said that I need several things to stop.  No more cutting people out of either of our lives.  Listen to my feelings and find a way to open up to the fact that what I say about my feelings and intentions is true.  I said this will probably take hard, uncomfortable work on both of our parts, including lots of therapy.  She owned up to what she was doing, acknowledged it as a pattern that she had done for years, and said she would go into her own therapy.  It sounded good, I took the leap of faith, and we continued with the fertility treatments and procedures.

Soon after, we got pregnant.  Now we have an amazing D2 who I would not trade for anything, ever.

But my w's commitment was short-lived.  When she did go to her own T, it sounded like she kept it pretty superficial.  Then she stopped it.  In marital T, she often reverted (and still does) to blaming me for everything.  Our marital T periodically tells my w that she really should go through her own T, but my w promptly ignores or forgets the recommendation.

I sank to a new low place for me several months ago.  Thanks to the wonderful people here at bpdfamily, SWOE and other books, and going back for some more of my own T, I've been digging myself out and learning to focus on me and my daughter.  Things are somewhat more peaceful at home, but it is still not the home life that I would have chosen for me or for my daughter.  At least I am finally learning, and learning to change myself.

I come from a place of understanding what a woman wants in terms of kids.  I desperately wanted babies all my life, and in your upper 30s, your window can close quickly.  However, she is young enough and unhealthy enough that you really have to push her to change things.  Don't be so eager to give her what she wants (in an effort for peace) that you make easy demands on her and go ahead with having children.  You both may have to wait a little bit.  Or it may not work out at all, or it may, but luckily she is 32 so you have wiggle room. 

I realized I've got an interesting but very different perspective on this, and perhaps it will help someone.

My wife knew she didn't want children before we met. I was always OK with this. Her mother was an alcoholic, and didn't have much time/energy for her, or when her mom did have energy to send at her it was all too often in the form of terrible rages. She didn't want to do THAT to anybody else, and was afraid she would.

About 20 years later, my wife's BPD symptoms started getting worse... .  and it pushed me to change things... .  and then pushed her to change things... .  Now I would say she has cured herself of BPD. FYI, she did have a real turning point that felt very different from the times she got over an episode and split back to her "good" side. For the first time, it was clear that she really had a deep understanding of  what she had been doing, and she wasn't going to do it anymore.

Here's the interesting point... .  my wife is now past the age of being able to have children... .  and finally believes she could raise one without doing the sort of damage she was subjected to growing up.  Fortunately, we don't have real regrets about our choice.

This is perhaps harsh, but I would absolutely not have a child with a pwBPD.  Here are some reasons, all of which I've witnessed:

(1) The child is likely to inherit BPD -- wrecking havoc on the child's life and the lives of others

(2) The BPD parent will likely alienate the child from the Non parent, making up wild accusations like sexual abuse

(3) The BPD parent will use the child as a pawn in a sick game of power against the Non

(4) The BPD parent will likely provide the child with the most awful parental guidance relating to all sorts of things, and will emotionally abuse the child

(5) The BPD parent will sabotage the child from becoming independent with a full-time job and spouse

I could not facilitate this with a clear conscious -- no matter how beautiful I might view by BPD spouse.   

kids will make things worse not better and bad for kids too

I posted earlier in this thread but wanted to add a couple additional insights.

Think of the subject of this thread, ":)eciding whether to have children with BPD spouse"... .Many members here never 'decided' to have a child, their spouse or partner just did it.  Some were told "I can't have children" or "I'm on the pill" - and the members ended up with a child, sometimes more than one!  Yes, no contraceptive method is foolproof or guarantees 100% reliability, but the success rate drops significantly with a spouse or partner who is willing to secretly sabotage you. :'(

I learned the hard way... .Having a child hoping for the spouse to feel better or feel more positive is not only having children for the wrong reason, it also vastly complicates parenting especially if/when the troubled relationship fails (or implodes).

I actually thought my exH's issues would get better if he had a kid.  There were certain behavioral things he got in line when we had kids.  However, and this is a big however, he couldn't control his anxieties.  If you have kids, there are a lot more things to worry about and things out of control.  And as mentioned previously, the kid is now an unwitting pawn in the whole dynamic you have - he/she is going to see the arguing, the tears, and the kid can be used against you, can be taken away from you, can be used to maintain engagement with you. 

A 32 year old woman has plenty more years to wait before having kids.  Don't rush in.

do not use children born or unborn as a bargaining chip, nuff said

I seems that you have already received a bunch of replies on how you should not consider having children. I would have to agree. Even if your wife did start BPD therapy (if she doesn't then there is no hope for a stable marriage) and you were starting to have a stable marriage, having children would/could be a whole new set of triggers.

I love my husband dearly and that is why I am staying to support and help him during his therapy (if he had not started therapy it would be over already) but I thank the lord above we have no children together and never will. He has three children with his ex-wife and that is hard enough. I have two kids from a previous marriage as well and mine are already out of the house.

I think that if she is aware of her anger issues then the logical side of her would definitely not want children, right? Is wanting children her way of trying to make things better for herself? I know that many BPs crave love and affection. If it is at all possible, could you get her a new puppy or kitty? It could be therapeutic for her if she likes them.

I don't think you should side step the issue; I think you should be very direct with her. She has to start hearing the truth and from you would be best. If and when she starts therapy for BPD she will respect your openness and honesty with her.

I believe "be very direct with her" could be another way of saying have a clear stated boundary.  If we aren't clear in what we say or do then that leaves a wide range of interpretation up to the other person and that makes it too inviting for it to be interpreted or reinterpreted incorrectly.

Whether you are the best person to inform a pwBPD about issues may depend on the overall relationship.  In Staying we will assume you have at least some level of communication that isn't high conflict (contrasted with leaving or divorces).  One problem many here have faced is that the emotional impact of the relationship on the pwBPD is a barrier that is difficult to get overcome.  It all depends on whether the person will actually listen.

My H got a commitment out of me when we were trying, too - that I would do ALL the work for the kids.  At that point I wanted children so badly (it was when we'd been trying for a while) and I agreed.  Who knew he'd mean every little thing - he wouldn't even do the tiniest thing, and he very very rarely softened on it.  not only that, he made it harder by, say, waking me up in the middle of the night because I'd left a diaper in the bathroom... .interrupting my one hour of sleep when I was caring for the newborn.  You keep tiptoeing, agreeing to more and more stuff, and you get boxed in and eventually things come to a head.  I didn't know about BPD and didn't know to set boundaries.  And I was not in a position to bargain - we were married, we were trying for a baby, I wanted one.  Believe it or not, I really did do pretty much every little thing, including staying up almost all night for months.  It's lucky I was healthy enough to do it.

My reply doesn't say to not ever consider it, just not now - you'd have to see a real period of improvement first, and working on therapy.  Not a short time, a longer time.  If she wants kids and wants you to stay, she'll commit.