BPDFamily.com

now, i have grown to fully believe that the fault lies in ourselves, and to take responsibility when you should, but one thing i'm trying to figure out, is if i grew up in an environment where my father displayed NPD tendencies, and it attributed to me growing into who i became and who i am trying to heal and improve from, how do i not blame my father? also, where do i accept responsibility? and what level of accountability do i give myself?

also, how do i keep from hating him, if he still have some of those tendencies (though he has improved a good amount over the years), but he is still controlling, and using bullying tactics, and just always has to be right, apparently knows everything about everything, is never wrong and always have to win an argument... .   how do i not hate that someone especially if they present that to my mother?

I have struggled with a lot of the same questions you pose.

I have to admit, until recently, I still had some very strong feelings about my dad that were not so good.  There was a lot that I endured growing up with him - his anger, his narcissistic tendencies - which he still has, but as in your situation, has 'mellowed' a bit over time.

I'm not sure how old you are, but my good friend said that I need to start looking at the positive aspects of my dad, and take those more into account.  She also told me that I need to be very open with him, and if I need to create boundaries, to do so, but try and let him know where I'm coming from.

So, I did that.  I opened up to him and filled him in on the last 6 years of my life, in great detail.  He sat there quiet for a while, and then he said a few things that made me think differently of him.  I saw his empathy for me!  He even apologized, and said he knew that he had done some things raising us that have effected my sister and I, and was so sorry he didn't handle things differently.  In that moment, I forgave him, and since then our relationship has been so different - one that you might expect between a father and daughter, more loving and caring.

Some of it is forgiveness, and realizing that your father is just a person who has flaws like all of us. 

As for what you are accountable for?  Everything now.  You are an adult and can make your own decisions regardless of who raised you.

Fakename, I am experiencing some of the same issues with my NPD mom.  I have been her scapegoat for my entire life and she still treats me poorly.  All of this finally came to the surface in my r/s with uBPDh. I'm working through it with a T.

I think the main thing to remember is that we are responsible for our behavior as adults.

I am low contact with her now and don't plan to be alone with her for a long time.  It does help me to know that my mom was my grandmother's scapegoat, that she was hurt as a little child, and that she's never dealt with it.  So she had a histrionic/narcissist mother and grew up to be a narcissist.  I had a narcissist mom and grew up to be codependent.  I wish I hadn't let my kids be around her so much when they were little.

Want2know, it's wonderful that you were able to talk openly with your father about it and he validated you.

My mom was good mom / bad mom because of her unpredictable behavior.  Every other member of my family I can see grey, but not my mom.

The adult in me understands that she was doing the best she could and she fell apart sometimes, we all do, but the kid is still scared and in her room waiting for the dishes to stop breaking.

The chaos and feelings of self loathing played a huge part in my relationship with my ex.  Good ex / Bad ex and he was trying the best he could. I felt right at home.  It felt good somehow for him to treat me like crap and me lovingly forgive him for it.  I should have been forgiving myself for letting myself be treated like that.

I am in therapy and we are working on my relationship with my mom atm.  I am dreading and looking forward to it at the same time.

Well, I had developmental Issues which where never addressed. I had severe emotional issues that every time I tried to address with my parents as a kis, I was told to shut up. My dad stole from me a number of times, and mom just let him. And there was begrudging money for my school lunches, if any. And the physical abuse of being  left out in the sun to work, and suffering severe heat exhaustion, and my parents lying about it to the ER people. And not helping with my higher education. And discouraging my participation in the advanced gift scholarly programs.

They did do some good. Nobody is all bad. But I felt like a whipping post or an easy mark to exploit. And having to undo all this damage is a hell of a lot of work. I think these people were lazy spoiled boomer brats that never grew up. and only after my father has lost everyone near and dear, and undergone great physical pain and disability in the last few years has he mellowed and become less of a self centered jerk.

I am the first in my family to really address the issues, rather that shoving them under the carpet. I mean, these were intelligent people that had better conditions to work on these issues, like health insurance. Really, I think this is just laziness and just trying to game things to do as less work as possible.

Now, a lot of people are like this, and I have a non negotiable wall I put up for dealing with the hoards of lazy masses that choose this.

thanks all for sharing... .  

@want2know, i'm 30/male... .   thats nice that you repaired things with your dad.

i know he does has some positives, but its hard to focus on that when i just cant handle his negatives. 

but frankly i dont have any interest in sitting down and having a discussion like you had, especially when i dont think it would have any benefit and i'm not interested in dealing with his manipulations and irrational justifications that would result in such a conversation... .   i think at one point or another, we have all said something - my mom, brother and i, and it doesnt really matter... .   he's too much like his parents and he's 62 now, cant see him changing too much and given the nature of my mom and brother and even me, on self-improvement, it annoys me that he doesnt do it on his own as well... .  

what bothers me the most is me thinking that i wish my mom didnt have to go through it and was treated better

i guess i just dont care anymore at this point and dont care to repair things with him, thats something he should do on his own and be proactive on his own.

That is a two-way street, and does not fall upon his shoulders to mend, even though he may have 'started it'.  It is your prerogative to keep things the way they are now, however, you will most likely remain in the same boat with the resentment if you don't change something, ie. perspective, take action, etc.  I am 48, and just had this change recently, so I'm not judging, just sharing.  :)

I understand how it makes it harder when you see your mom involved... .   she is also an adult, and accountable for her decision to stay and manage the situation.  My mom divorced my dad when I was 12, so I didn't have to live with seeing him interact with her in the way that he interacted with my sister and I.  I am thankful for that, as I'm sure that would have added to the resentment.

So, what is it that you are thinking you want to do?  We're here for you, to listen and respond to your thoughts. 

Hi fake name, I don't blame either one. My FOO contributed in a significant way to my choosing a man with BPD to be my spouse. My personality, beliefs and my best coping skill, denial, contributed to me remaining in the relationship for far too long. It's just the way things were. I have largely dealt with the xBPDh issues but the relationship problems between my father and myself remain unresolved and it is open and painful. He was never diagnosed with a mental illness, but was an angry, self absorbed, cold and controlling man. He was angry at himself, at his wife, at his children and the people he had to work with. He was fawning to people he considered educated or materially well off. My mother was schizophrenic and used me as a shield to protect her from his anger. I had no expectations from her so was never let down. I did from my father though and I was continually let down, he was never there for me unless it was to brag about some achievement. About ten years ago after he remarried I cut off all communication with him. I just couldn't stand listening to him talk about his now wonderful life with his new wife. I feel now that was wrong. He approached me several times, occasionally angry but most often in a kind manner asking me if we could somehow resume a relationship. I ignored his overtures. Again I think that was wrong of me but at the time I wasn't able to go to that place that somehow I knew would rip open old wounds.  Two years ago I had to go to that place after I separated from my xBPDh and it was hard and painful and I realized the feelings I had buried so deep were as much about my father as they were my husband. Four months ago I emailed him. It was a non judgemental non accusatory letter in which I wrote about my feelings growing up as his daughter and some of the painful occurrences that left deep scars. I told him I couldn't have a surface relationship with him but if he was willing to work through the issues I had written about with me then I was willing to do the work to heal our relationship. I have not heard from him since I sent the email. I was going to say I know it would have been painful for him but right there is one of the very things I am working on addressing in my life, assuming I know what other people feel based on only my own feelings. Anyway I have left it at that, but wonder if I shouldn't phone him and talk. I still don't feel ready for that but neither do I want to run out of time. There is always that.

thanks all for sharing and writing... .  

@want2know,

you dont think it falls on his shoulders, as a father of 2, and husband of a great woman, to try to improve himself and recognize how he treats people in his family?

there's nothing i can change but just make moves to have him out of my life and push my mom for divorce... . (she's at the point where she's also had enough and is only sticking around until i get settled (i'm unemployed at the moment)

saying anything to him won't do it anything.  and at this point, i think i'm just going to utilize something i've watched him do to my mom for as long as i can remember... .   give the silent treatment.  i cant and don't want to pretend to respect or like someone, and i really see know reason to do that here.  i'm really leaning towards if he says anything to me, i just wont respond and if he doesnt get the hint, i'll just tell him i dont have any desire to talk to someone like him.  i dont know how else to address it... .   i think that i'm being very straightforward.

@cumulus,

i think i am going to put some blame on my dad for having adopted his negative traits... .   i did it through absorption, and as a kid i even treated my mom poorly cause i was brought up to not respect her through watching his behaviors.

i dont see the need to reach out to my dad and have a talk. i'm 30, he's 62, he's had plenty of time to change his behavior.  i just dont like seeing my mom have to live a life where she isnt free. and it affects my mental stability living in a house like this.  it causes problems for me. 

Fakename,

Sounds like I feel the same way about my mom as you feel about your dad.  I've been talking with my sister about the deal with my mom - she has a little different take on it because she was the "golden child."  Before this thread, my S asked me if I would consider talking to my mom honestly about what my experience with her has been, how it's affected me, etc.  Personally, I'm not ready to go there with my mom.  I don't know if I ever will be.  She basically blamed me for all the bad stuff she did to my dad and our family when I was a kid.  She has a "grudge" against me because I was born.  She told me this on my birthday two months ago, which I also share with her.  lol Even my birthday is all about her.

The way she treated me as a child was wrong and very neglectful.  The way she's treated me as an adult is just as bad - smear campaigns, projection, instigating situations with my sons.  My T went so far as to say she might have BPD traits as well.

A lot of people decide to go no contact or low contact with the pwNPD.  My T said I could have limited contact with her if I develop strong boundaries, which I've had trouble with in the past - obviously... .     Anyway, I think it's fine to go NC if that's where you are.

Daze

fakename--

this is a good question, but in my corner of reality has started causing me to be very careful of my wording.

Not just splitting hairs or playing semantics, but correct usage of words.

My mother is a Sadistic Personality Disorder with Borderline features. That diagnosis "doesn't exist anymore" in the DSM4 (and likley won't in the DSM5 either) so she just ends up in what Christine Lawson ("understanding the borderline mother" calls "the witch" category.

Do I blame her for the things she did to me as a kid? YOU BET. Do I forgive her for the horrific things she did to me and my brothers? ABSOLUTELY NOT. She has never apologized or asked for forgiveness, and I wouldn't "give" it anyway. For me, it would be the same as saying what she did was OK, and it WASN'T. Do I blame my NPD father for molesting me as a kid? YOU BET. As a young adult, I confronted him about it and not only did he not apologize, or even defend himself, he simply talked down to me and acted like I was ridiculous and petty for even bringing it up. Do I forgive him for that? NO. Do I HAVE to forgive him or my mother? NO.

Did the way I was raised effect me? Of course it did. I truly believed that if I could just get away from them, everything would be fine--I would be a healthy, well rounded individual. Well, it didn't quite work out like that.

Sometimes I am angry that I am carrying a cross that doesn't seem like it is really mine to bear, that was foisted on me. That my point of reference is dysfunction. But mostly I am glad to be an adult that can now defend myself and make my own choices.

Personally, the only thing I see "wrong" with blaming your parents is getting stuck there. When you can't get past it and use it as an excuse for your own behavior it becomes a serious obstacle. I still want to be that healthy, well rounded individual I envisioned myself as. I work toward that every single day. And yes, sometimes I am mightily frustrated at the obstacles in my way (like the warped point of reference) but I don't stop. Blame is the excuse of the personality disordered. I try to be very careful to not do that. I swore to myself I would never be like either of my parents, and I meant it. That means more than just being the "anti-parents"--it means becoming a SELF. Not like that, and not a knee jerk "anti" reaction to it either.

One of the HUGE moments of relief for me was last year in therapy when I told my therapist that I could not forgive my mother or father, and he said "you don't have to--why would you forgive things like that?" NOT forgiving it allows me to show myself that I value myself, that I don't believe it is OK for anyone to treat me the way my parents did. Getting angry about the way they treated me is what is allowing me now to also not want to be treated that way by others, the significant others in my life.

But it HAS to go further than that. If I am to hold them responsible, then I too must be responsible--for my own choices, ignorances, and shortcomings. And since I cannot change those things about others, I need to work on changing them about myself. Acceptance doesn't mean approval.

Doublearies,

Thanks for writing. It was really helpful.

I was just trying to sleep but found myself just fueling my anger towards my dad so had too much energy to fall asleep.

As I was laying there I was thinking how I need to do what I can to not be like him and what I need to improve.

When I gave up alcohol I stopped blaming others and my parents for who I am and the mistakes I've made in my life. I accept that it's my responsibility. But it's like he's this poison in my life that continually affects me and that's why I don't want anything to  do with him.  He's too much negativity. And it's not good for me.

What bothers me the most is I want my mom to be able to live  without being constantly criticized, never appreciated and feel like she can't do anything she wants cause he's so controlling. I'm just really sick of it and I guess it's cause he threw a his at fit on Saturday.  2nd time in a month. And now he's giving her the silent treatment again. Last time it lasted like 7 days. I'm sick of her having to live like that and I'm sick of living like this and in such an environment. It's really discouraging and makes me feel like not wanting to do anything.   

I guess when I was asking if people blame their environment or their families for contributing to how try are now, is partly because I needed to know if this is something I should have overcome. Why did it affect me so much and so negatively throughout my life and not my brother (he's very successful and just purchased a 5 million dollar apartment. And he's a great guy. Humble, kind to me even though I was a troublemaker as a child and likely added to the family problems.

I plan to ask him that now that I think about it.


I'm worried that I'm going to lash out on my dad in just a terrible angry burst and say how much I despise him as how he acts like a 5 year old with his controlling and bullying antics and how I just think he's a terrible person. But I also worry what effect that will have in the house and that he'll take it out on my mom.

He always threatens to leave whenever he gets angry. And I really wish he just would. My mom is more than financially stable and so doesn't have any dependence on him. But she needs me  to get settled first before she says she does anything.

I'm holding her back.

I really feel like I hate the guy. I can't have respect for someone who is always right, blames everyone else for everything, apparently is an expert on everything,  is a bully, acts like a child and everything has to be his way or approved by  him. I'm just sick of it.

Daze,  thanks for writing. I can relate.

Do you think going lc or nc while we live in the same house is ok?

We already have little contact because I just don't like being around him but obviously that doesn't help in how he treats my mom or acts in general. Do I tell him I don't want anything to do with him?

And I also grew up constantly beig told things were my fault. It really had an affect on me. I heard it from all over. My dad, mom, brother. I thi k there was so much chaos I. The house that everyone took on the trait of having to throw the blame on someone because he was always doing that to my mom, so she and my bro just naturally followed lead. I could be wrong.  But I know I picked up some of his negative traits just by osmosis I guess.

I don't know. I'm feeling down about it all. If I wasn't causing so much trouble may e things would h e been better or if I took my career more seriously there wouldn't be this stress which causing these problems.

I don't know. Could use some Insights

Just me two cents. Number one, why doesn't your mom defend herself? my mom was the same way, and while on the surface, it made my father to be the sole ogre, she was pretty crappy herself, and was perhaps even more of a liar. Addicted to pain? Dont know if this applies, but could be food for thought?

It weird, but I am moving out my resentment. It is transforming into an instant eject button for crappy people. I don't have the finesse or ability to participate in complex crap games,as I know I always come out on the short end. So guess what?  i Refuse to play. Civil disobedience.

Fakename,

Evidently this is a common issue in dysfunctional families, where one member becomes the scapegoat for the family's problems.  I am just learning about this phenomenon even though I lived it and it's been a shock.  It's normal to experience feelings that are all over the place.  It will take time to put it in perspective and begin to heal. Here's a blog on it that explains it in a nutshell.

www.lightshouse.org/lights-blog/outcast-scapegoat-or-black-sheep-of-the-dysfunctiona-family#axzz2QX6Lx8nL

You and your brother have different experiences because you are different people.  That sounds simplistic but it's true.  Sounds like he was cast as the golden child and you were the scapegoat. My parents have always told me that my sister has "handled things better" than I do.  Very invalidating.  :)on't compare yourself to your brother.  :)on't let this hurt your r/s with him.  My mother hates both her sisters and she became bitter over it.  My T said the golden child has a vested interest in the status quo even if they don't realize it.

The good thing about this is now that you understand better what has happened, you can reject the scapegoat role.  Before, you couldn't reject it because you didn't understand it except maybe on an unconscious level.  If you can afford therapy, please look into it.  If not, read books about children of narcissistic parents and see if there are codependent meetings in your area - including Al-Anon.  There's a lot on the Internet too.  Get therapy as soon as you can.

I think it will be hard to go NC with your dad while you are living with him.  But you could definitely go LC and take good care of yourself so you can find a job and move.  The main thing now is not to make the situation worse so that you can get out on your own terms.

This realization began for me a couple of months ago and the worst of it has been hitting over the last month.  It's hard to experience, but it will be so worth it to come out of it as a healthy person.

Keep posting ---

Daze

   

@maryiscontrary,

there's not much my mom could do to defend herself... .   she'll voice her side of the argument and stand up for herself, but then he just gets louder and more dramatic and there's really no winning with him... .   he HAS to win the argument in one way or another, so she's not gonna just kill herself and keep beating a dead horse... .  

my mom is pretty much everything i aspire to be... .   very hardworking, always active, very smart, is an individual, doesnt gossip or anything like that... .   she just focuses on herself, likes to meditate and learn about her soul and that's really what she's all about... .   she's probably the most incredible person i've ever met... .  

so how would you refuse to play if you were in a situation were you lived with the person?


@daze, thanks for writing, i'll reply later... .   heading out to my part-time job... .  

regarding your mom:

Iron. Clad. Boundaries. A nice start is that she leaves the area when he starts opening his pie hole in a non constructive way. He wants to win. She does not have to participate in the retarded game.

she does not have to be in the same room with an a hole. Taking the power out of his blowhard.

@daze,

that was a great article, thanks... .

one thing i dont get though, is that i dont feel like i can call myself the scapegoat knowing that had i done better in school or didnt cause needless troubles, some things could have be avoided... .   i feel like that is a fact... .   so i did contribute to some of the problems in our house... .  

i used to have a good amount of angst towards my brother and didnt like him much, but then i got older and i love the guy and all he has done for me. i feel that for the most part, he's one of my idols... .   (my mom contributed to him changing his mentality towards me and giving me the chance that i've changed since i was a kid... . )

anyway, i dont compare myself to him anymore, and i know that everything he gets he really deserves, was always a very hard worker and had his priorities straight. he'a a great guy.

also, i cant help but wonder, but how should i expect a parent to act if their 30 year old son still lives with them and is unemployed for over a year now... .  

Fakename,

I hear you.  I don't think it's a blame issue.  More like a way to understand things that frequently happen in dysfunctional families.  I have spoken with people in my family - two grandmothers, two aunts, my sister, and my dad - for more insight and they shared quite openly.  My paternal grandmother figured it out when she saw John Bradshaw on Oprah in the early 90s.  She also saw a psychologist, bought me a couple of books, which I read. I related somewhat but didn't put much stock in "psychobabble."   lol


This could be me too, but I'm not too hard on myself because I was a kid.  Plus, I've been on my own since I was 20 (47 now), educated myself, and built a career and business.  The weak area in my life has been in choosing men who are not good for me - having had two marriages and one longterm r/s with men who were not emotionally available - which makes me question my emotional availability and maturity level... .      :)  My alcoholic uBPDh was my wake-up call.

There's appropriate guilt which feeds growth / change and there's inappropriate guilt which can feed shame.  I can't speak to your experience.  All you can do is try to understand what has happened, learn from it and heal, and make the changes necessary for the life you want.  What else can any of us do?   

Daze

@daze,

thanks for writing and being there for me.

so i'm feeling better... .   the anger subsided for now, though i antcipate it coming back if he yells at my mom again... .  

but in any event, i'm not gonna be rude or anything, if i have to, i'll just tell him that i dont feel comfortable around him or talking with him... .   otherwise i'm just focusing on myself.

i feel good... . cycled a tough 40 miles with a friend, worked out afterwards... . i'm gonna sleep well tonight... . gonna do some productive stuff then fall asleep to a good movie.

i feel good right now. maybe cause i understand things better, maybe i'm done blaming myself or others, and just going to focus on what needs to get done... .  

thanks all for your help and insights, it was actually really tough for me when i first posted about this... .   also felt good to tell someone... .