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My ex who I have been having limited contact with, though moving closer in last few months (intimacy, yikes)  has been going to his dark side in the last month,  depressed, antsy, out of sorts, unhappy at work, morose, snarky... .   and admitted last night he wants to sell his business and just travel on his motorcyle for five years, and admitted he wants to see other people (though has awareness that this is just a pattern he has done over and over and dating doesn't solve his problems).  So I said I support him in whatever he needs to do.  

He then wanted to share with me in what ways he has grown dissatisfied with me (so I can know what his needs are and work better to meet them)  and he is saying he can't make a commitment to me because

1) I didn't get the new  timing belt on my car adjusted in a timely fashion

2) he is irritated that I am taking care of some last minute tax paperwork for my ederly mother having recieved a call from her tax preparer on Friday (I was suppose to know or anticipate my help would be needed prior to the call somehow?)

3) and he's bored and stagnant because I'm not efferevescent enough for him.

4) Oh, and he is very disappointed in how I handled my marriage settlement agreement, I negotiated a 50k settlement down  from 70k settlement with my ex husband (posted about his here in a thread about a month ago) and thinks it was a loser move on my part to not insist on the 70k settlement.

He said this stuff is important to him and it bothers him deeply. He wants more (than me).  So I said "go get more, then.  My experience for years now is that you always become dissatisfied with me w/n 6 to 9 months and when we become close, so go find "more" somewhere else. You will not find it here.  I cannot make you happy, I support you in finding your own happiness."  I said I  support you in your efforts, whatever makes you happy, sweetheart.  But I've jumped over many, many hoops in my years knowing you in an effort to make you feel more sastified with me long term, and sooner or later, it's just something else. So, Rock on with your bad self, sweetheart, but I'm not going to try to talk you out of doing what you need to do.  Go find more somewhere else."  

He felt unheard of course, he wants me to hear his complaints about me so I can try harder to meet his needs.  He feels I don't do this.  I have done this in the past, but  it just hasn't fixed anything, and I won't keep picking up the same rope.    

I got sucked into that hurt and angry, fearful place for about 10 minutes, the one where I swing between finding his issues with me to be ridiculously nitpicky, mean spirited red herrings... .   and my own childhood fears that he is right, no one will ever really love me because I am not good enough.

I asked him incredulously... .   are you really implying or saying that you could love me and commit to me if I just had my timing belt adjusted sooner? THAT is what you turly feel prevents you from making a commitment to me? It's THAT important to you that you would ruin an otherwise perfectly good relationship over it?  He said YES!  And I said I'm sorry sweety but I think that is  just BULL!  BULL!  And how sad that this would be what keeps you from being content in a relationship.  This is not about a timing belt! This is about two people that cannot and will not stay in relationship, and will not and cannot stay in intimacy.  

He cannot stay in relationshp with me, even after 8 years of therapy.  And I clearly continue to have my own issues with intimacy in continuing to associate with men who cannot and will not show up and stay connected in relationship with me.  My dad couldn't (nice guy, but always leaves) and my ex-husband couldn't (nice guy but too busy rescuing the entire world and cultivating his image as a professional martry to even really know me) and neither can my ex who has BPD and always needs to exit once we get close and settle into something good that resembles a normal relationship.

This is NOT about a timing belt. Such bull!

Again, not surprised.  

What would it even be like to date someone who actually had the capacity to stay in relationship with me?   Would it just freak me out?  Would I move away from such a person because it would seem so weird if they kept showing up emotionally instead of doing the whole push pull? Could I even do it or is it just so forigen to me at this point... .   and these emotinally unavailable guys are so known to me,  like dear old dad, they are just such well known comfortable shoes that I slip into... .   and I have so much expertise in navagating THESE waters,  that I  wonder if I would even know what to do with someone who actually could show up emotionally and stay in relationship?  I wonder.  I seem to gravitate to these men who are this exact way; they all have differnt styles on the surface but really, it's all just about not being  able to stay in relationship or intimacy.  So, I guess I don't know how to, either?

Yes, this does seem like bull ~. Like I have said elsewhere, I have to be a btch with very strong boundaries because of the trauma I have been through. I would say, don't let the door hit ya in the butt.

Come on... .   what BS... .   timing belt? He sounds like a baby looking for... .   mommy?

Maybe the real problem with you is the same problem I had... .   didn't thow the louts out fast enough. Rather than an undefined character flaw you think you have, maybe it's the churn and burn rate has to be increased. What do you think?

MaybeSo,  Your post resonated with me.  After I would experience intimacy with my ex, she would inevitably find what seemed to be mostly insignificant reasons to push away.  At first, she would not even tell me what it was that was bothering her, but when I pressed her later on, she would say things that, in my mind, and I think most healthy people's minds, would not be deal breakers in serious relationships.  Most of them were things that could be changed or modified or accepted as differences, and so on. 

The point it that I think they find anything to justify them pushing away.  No, it does not make sense what he said about your timing belt.  But if it was not the timing belt, it would have been something else.  It is frustrating as all get out.  But I applaud you for sticking up for yourself and telling him you couldn't offer him that.  That is true growth.  I don't see this as being about you or anything you need to change about yourself. 

If you jump through that hoop, there will be another one, and another one, and another one... .

I'm sorry you are hurting, but good job on being good to you!  Your courage gives me strength and hope.

If I made better choices in partner selection (easier said than done, cause I'm obviously accustomed to the same old same old emotionally unavailable guy)... .   would I really need to have my dukes up all the time?  I don't think I'd have to have my dukes up if I chose better, right?


Yes, I agree... .   it's sticky though because I am a person who wants to 'work on' relationship if it's really working on relationship... .   but I don't want to just keep chasing the unattainable, which with this man, I feel that's what it's about.  I also think he was feeling shame about his darkness, and he couldn't just leave with my support of him finding his own happiness, he had to throw in how I have failed him, with the implication being if I'd not failed him in these ways... .   he'd be a happier man and willing to have me in his life.  So, he felt shame, and he had to make sure I was also struggling with shame feelings coming up in me before he left... .   and I started to go there, then checked myself.  I don't have to meet his every need for him to be happy, it's not even possible, and I don't want the job.

I think you are minimizing what is wrong with him, whether it is BPD or some other issues - from  your description this ex is big-time trouble.


No you wouldn't... .   in a normal relationship you but your love and energy towards making a good life and enjoying your time together.  When I think of all the time I wasted on stupid arguments and overall negative experiences with my BPDex it is sad.

Are you in therapy? Perhaps you could get to the root of these bad decisions by talking to a professional.

I am not religious at all, but Cloud and Townsend have a nice list for what makes a safe person. They are experts is the field of boundaries, so the religious overtone does not bother me personally.

Also the "hoops" thing Phoenix is talking about. This is extremely important.


"When John (Townsend) and I asked people to describe a “safe person” to us, they gave us these descriptions:

A person who accepts me just like I am.

A person who loves me no matter how I am being or what I do.

A person whose influence develops my ability to love and be responsible.

Someone who creates love and good works within me.

Someone who gives me an opportunity to grow.

Someone who increases love within me.

Someone I can be myself around.

Someone who allows me to be on the outside what I am on the inside.

Someone who helps me to deny myself for others and God.

Someone who allows me to become the “me” that God intended.

Someone who helps me become the “me” God sees in me.

Someone whose life touches mine and leaves me better for it.

Someone who touches my life and draws me closer to who God created me to be.

Someone who helps me be like Christ.

Someone who helps me love others more."

This resonates so much with me, too, MaybeSo!  One of my fears is that I've become too adept at jumping through hoops and working so hard at relationships, that if a truly available man came along now, I wouldn't know what to do with him.  On the other hand, I think I've decided that at this point I'd rather be alone than a hoop-jumper and a bull___ taker - can't do it anymore!

I agree with PhoenixRising, if it hadn't been the timing belt (huh?) it would have been something else.  And it will probably be something else later, unfortunately.  Good for you for standing up for yourself.    I think we sometimes forget that we have so much to offer, just by being ourselves.  I mean, there are people out there who would love to be part of our lives, and present for us,  just because we are. 

At least that's what my T says  :)  I'm still working on accepting that... .  

Ha HA HA!

This made me chuckle... .  

yes yes... .   I've have a psychologist I've worked with for about 8 years now myself!  This stuff, it doesn't just go away fast. And,  It is really only through this very challenging r/s with my ex with BPD and N traits... .   that I've really seen in all its glory how my own codepenence and lack of self worth and dysfunction has played out in my life.  I also do not mean to imply the men in my life have offered nothing of good or substance in my life,  or that the men I have chosen to love have been all bad... .   it's so so much more complex than that, each man I mentioned,  even with all his own issues,  has certainly brought things of great value to my life that I am grateful for.  But they aren't really able to be present in relationship.

I have a rich and full life, I do not feel like a victim, but I am just still learning.

I will probably never ever really solve all of this in one lifetime.  And that's ok.  

I'm not minimizing what is wrong with him, I have a pretty sound understanding of his issues; and I'm understanding my own more and more all the time, too.  I just don't have time to write all of it... .   I've been on here for about 5 years now, so many readers have seen so much of my story already anyway, these days I try to keep it short if I can, just the readers digest version, you know.  I geuss that could seem like minimizing his issues.  He's not really big-time trouble to me anymore (he was in the beginning because I didn't understand what he was doing and took his stuff peronsally and was very injured for a long time)  but, these days,  I take care of myself and know who he is,  and he is definately not able to stay in relationship or in intimacy.  None of it surprises me anymore.


Me too!

These lists (below)  are always interesting to me when I think about it from the perspective of the other; in this case, I certainly do not offer all of these things to MY ex w/ BPD.  So, I'm really not a safe person for him, either.




     

Maybe you don't really want a stable relationship - I mean, that's ok if you don't... .   is it possible these relationships make you happy?

You have been in T a long time, so you know all the information on self worth and accepting less than... .   it is all true.  You also know how to change it, doing it is difficult indeed.

If I take your words at face value - you know what this relationship is, you don't feel like a victim and you are likely not safe for him either.

IF all this is true - what's wrong this being what it is? 

Well, It is just disapointing I guess. That we can't be in relationship after all these years, and that I've not managed to be in a stable r/s after all these years.

Like many on here, I feel the desire to be in a long term stable relationship, but what I have manifested in my life is not that.

Maybe I just don't know how or don't want it badly enough, maybe I really am no better at it (intimacy) than he is.  Maybe a more secure person would just hear his concerns and agree, oh, yea, I could be more responsbile about those things, yup.  

I'm not manifesting what it is I say I want (a stable relationship)... .   so, maybe I really don't want it nearly as much as I 'think' I do.  If I don't really want a stable relationship... .   I guess I've done a very good job at meeting my own needs, cause this isn't really a stable relationship and never has been.  

I geuss there is nothing wrong with it, it's just disapointing. And if I really don't want a stable r/s I wish that it was more in my awareness so that it felt in alignment with what I manifest... .   I still have longings for a stable relationship, if I don't really want that, I would like the longings for that to abate.  If I don't really want a stable relationship, why do I long for it?  

MaybeSo,

I have a deep respect for you - the work you do on these boards.

So, do you want to kinda vent and work through this on your own or do you want a little SB tough love?  Your call and I respect whichever you choose.

Peace,

SB

Seeking Balance, yes, I am open to some tough love, I suspect it may mirror much of my own thoughts... .  

I get I choose this.  I get it's a repition compulsion.  I get I can choose to do what I want.  I see I do get something out of this less than stable relationships.  I suspect I may not be all that avialable for intimacy, either... .  

So, given that... .   fire away... .  

|iiii

I second that. I am spending more time here than anywhere ever, because I am practicing to get this monkey off my back. I mean, the life I have attempted to cultivate is basically a self designed sanitarium. Very few moving parts. Seriously, as much as I had lost in these sat few years, it was either do the Henry david Thoreau thing, or off myself via carbon monoxide, which I could arrange with surgical precision. I had to get rid of the nightmares. I have to work on the paranoia. I had to stop smoking. And I had to stop the desire to put a gun to my head. And I had to stop the desire to put a gun to other peoples head. Yes, pacifist bohemian homicidal me.

I absolutely cannot take any more sh!t in my relationships. What is it going to take for you? Do want to end up like I did? Do you really, really want to end up dissociating 12 hours a day? Like Gina Louise, my ex was a gifted man who became very, very dangerous because he did NOTdeal will HIS trauma. Do you want to push yourself until you snap?

Let me tell you A MAN celebrates his woman,  and works hard to make day to day life for her a little less crappy. Any other man is a baby looking for mommy SOB. you are just one giant nipple to these louts. And just to be fair... .   it is the same the other way around when nice guys get jacked around.

This: 
It's also interesting what you said about maybe not even wanting a 'healthy' relationship.  These patterns are very ingrained in me as well.  I have been in recovery circles for over 20 years, but really just started addressing the relationship end of it in the past several years.  Yes, it almost seems insurmountable to change at times. 

Sometimes I wonder if I will end up trying to partner with someone with similar issues again, but approach it from a different angle.  I really don't want that, though.  Gosh, I really don't.  The push-pull is just too much. 

The characteristics of a healthy relationship listed on from Maryiscontrary's post sound very nice to me, especially the part about accepting each other for who we are.  I don't want to have to pretend to be something I am not and continue to bend and contort myself to please someone.  It was killing me.

Best of luck to you, MaybeSo.   :)

Oh, I have no doubt your thoughts are correct - my question to you is this... .   are you willing to risk completely being alone and rebuilding yourself without a backup relationship and not settling to achieve your goal of a stable relationship?

The BPD relationship - nope, you likely don't really get to have him as your stability - you know the disorder, you know the recovery process, I think you have read The Buddha and the Borderline which shows first hand the push/pull even with being considered recovered.

Now, I am going to ask you this - does he know you are 100% pot committed and want a real, stable relationship?  These exact words, that you are willing to do the hard, he do DBT, the family DBT - all of it?  If you have not put yourself out there to let him choose all of this, well - maybe it is worth the risk... .   I dunno.

I can only give you what I am experiencing and how I am somewhat imperfectly walking down this path.  My good friend made a joke a few years ago when someone asked my type - "crazy, arrogant, smart".  GULP - the think is, that is my type I am initially attracted too.  Then, I justify and look for only the good parts and am shocked when it doesn't work out!

Over the last year, I have dated & ended things after about 6 weeks with 2 of these.  Yep, I was attracted, yep, I started to see the patterns and it was gut wrenching for me to pull away when nothing bad had happened yet.  I mean, I doubted myself (thank God for my best friend processing over and over with me), and the loneliness felt from ending them - not really even like my divorce, I mean gut wrenching which made no logical sense to me.

The point is -the only way we change is by changing... .   and it is frigging hard.  It opens up our deepest, darkest parts - and sometimes we go backwards... .   but I fundamentally believe if I consistently change my patterns, I will find a kind, consistent person attractive.  If I change my energy, eventually my energy of attraction will change.

So, I ask you - if you keep doing the same thing over and over - how do you think it is going to change?  The thing is, you already know the answers here... .  

Since you know them, what is it that you want in a stable relationship?  What do you think is going to be different than what you have?  Is it realistic of you to think this?  Stability comes boredom at times, are you ok with that?  

Is it possible that instability is giving you a sense of control on the predictable?  :)oes this seem safe to you?

And basically you are changing your habits, you are building countless electrical lines and connections in your nervous system. That is a lot of tissues building, which is a lot of protein synthesis. It's a he'll of a lot of work. And you also have to tear down old neural connective pathways as well. It's remodelling tissue, pruning and growth.

This is what makes change so hard.

But  I don't think the situation you just decscribed with your ex is healthy, either.

Oh, I have no doubt your thoughts are correct - my question to you is this... .   are you willing to risk completely being alone and rebuilding yourself without a backup relationship and not settling to achieve your goal of a stable relationship?

[i]I already did this.  He bullied my out of the house in 2011. Since then I've moved 3x, bought my own house, finished my masters program internship and continue on with my life.  I do not wait for him to become stable for me to become stable, I have put a lot of time and focus on my own life, it's the only way I could ever have even risked being in even limited contact with him again. [/i]

As for acheiving a goal of a stable relationship, I just don't know how I really feel about it right now; Honestly,  I seem to long for it. But, honestly, right now, is meeting a new man so I can have a long term relationship my #1 priority?  No.  I'm embarking on a new career, I have a new home... .   I have good freinds, I think I rather focus on those things right now, but, if someone nice came along in an organic manner (NO ONLINE DATING)... .   yea, I hope one day I can have that.

The BPD relationship - nope, you likely don't really get to have him as your stability - you know the disorder, you know the recovery process, I think you have read The Buddha and the Borderline which shows first hand the push/pull even with being considered recovered.

Now, I am going to ask you this - does he know you are 100% pot committed and want a real, stable relationship?  These exact words, that you are willing to do the hard, he do DBT, the family DBT - all of it?  If you have not put yourself out there to let him choose all of this, well - maybe it is worth the risk... .   I dunno.

I hear you.  He does work with a  :)BT therapist already, and also another therapist too.  And I work with my own.  I dont' know about family DBT etc.,.  We've been down the BPD label before, he doesn't like identifying with it; he identifies with having an attachment disorder, and that's about it.  He knows his T has training with DBT, but I have been soundly admonished for LABELING him in the past.  So, I don't even want to go down that road.  His therapy is his business.  I guess I don't want to get invovled in this therapy or make it have something to do with me; I do my own T, he does his.  If we got to where we could work with a skilled DBT couples cx, that could be beneficial I think, but I we tried couples cx 2x before and it was a bust.

I can only give you what I am experiencing and how I am somewhat imperfectly walking down this path.  My good friend made a joke a few years ago when someone asked my type - "crazy, arrogant, smart".  GULP - the think is, that is my type I am initially attracted too.  Then, I justify and look for only the good parts and am shocked when it doesn't work out!

Over the last year, I have dated & ended things after about 6 weeks with 2 of these.  Yep, I was attracted, yep, I started to see the patterns and it was gut wrenching for me to pull away when nothing bad had happened yet.  I mean, I doubted myself (thank God for my best friend processing over and over with me), and the loneliness felt from ending them - not really even like my divorce, I mean gut wrenching which made no logical sense to me.

The point is -the only way we change is by changing... .   and it is frigging hard.  It opens up our deepest, darkest parts - and sometimes we go backwards... .   but I fundamentally believe if I consistently change my patterns, I will find a kind, consistent person attractive.  If I change my energy, eventually my energy of attraction will change.

Yes, I think you are correct.  I don't see much changing in the way of who I draw to my life if I keep doing the same tango I do with him.  Though, I think the tango with him has changed, for what it's worth. I'm not devestated. I don't feel I need him. I understand his limitations, though it can still have a sting of... .   oh yea... .   how disapointing, he can't do this. We RARELY argue or spar, nothing is really UGLY between us, it's just that he's not going to stay... .   he's doing what he does, and I accept that, too.  He doens't live with me, I have my own place, I make sure whatever mercurial stuff he has going on cannot greatly upset my own apple cart anymore.

So, I ask you - if you keep doing the same thing over and over - how do you think it is going to change?  The thing is, you already know the answers here... .  

Yup, I get it. I do like parts of him and enjoy some of his good qualities. But, I have remained very disengaged through this,  I don't feel floored or anything over this... .   I have said to my best freind, the pain of this in the past use to be devestating, now... .   it's just sort of a dull, annoying ache.  

Since you know them, what is it that you want in a stable relationship?  What do you think is going to be different than what you have?  Is it realistic of you to think this?  Stability comes boredom at times, are you ok with that?  

Yes I think I'm okay with boredom.  I like when my relationship with him is really calm and probably boring.  I think that's why he said I'm not efferevscent enough for him.  Ugh.  I think what concerns me is that as a woman, no matter how much I understand his stuff intellectutally and don't really take it personally anymore,  it still gets me in that soft, sore, self esteem place when he says things like that.  You aren't efferevescent enough.  Ouch.  I picture some model in a beer commercial when he says these things.  Wow, how does one become more efferevscent?  He's one of the moodiest SOBs I've ever met when he's not feeling good, and he wants ME to be more effing efferevscent?  Huh?

Is it possible that instability is giving you a sense of control on the predictable?  :)oes this seem safe to you?

Sure, yes, my dad came and went.  When he showed up, he was like a visiting rock star. Then he'd leave, then he's eventually show up again.  I see that I am adjusted to this at a very deep level; this is, in a weird way, what love feels like to me, what family relating feels like to me, what closeness feels like to me.  Your loved one comes, then he goes.  It's not stable, it's just whvery very familiar to me.

yes, brain scans of pwBPD before dbt and after dbt prove this to be true.

As such, it will be true for us.

one of my favorite quotes about change:

"transformation without work and pain, without suffering, without a sense of loss is jut an illusion of true change."

How did you end up dating him again MaybeSo?

How do you even have room for a new, stable relationship with him an integral part of your life?  I mean, your are not single... .  

Could he just be "saying" he is leaving - you know, dysregulated and it will pass?  He says he's bored, so why not pick on you to start some drama?  Worked in the past, right?

You handled it well... .   honestly.

This post seems to have 2 themes for me:

1 - BPD partner and how to manage your feelings of worthiness while he is dysregulated.

2 - are you capable of attracting a more stable partner

Am I accurate in the themes, or am I misreading something?

Maybe he is projecting.

How did you end up dating him again MaybeSo?

Ugh. Match.com.  

How do you even have room for a new, stable relationship with him an integral part of your life?  I mean, your are not single... .  

I am pretty busy, I guess dipping into something with him in some ways was easier than starting all over with someone new... .   I'm not sure I have the energy to actually start all over again right now... .   Maybe I'm just being lazy.

Could he just be "saying" he is leaving - you know, dysregulated and it will pass?  He says he's bored, so why not pick on you to start some drama?  Worked in the past, right?

You handled it well... .   honestly.

Yes, he is dysregulated.  Yes, so why not pick a fight?  Yes, it's worked in the past.  I'm not biting like before, I'm saying I support whatever he needs to do. I think that leaves him feeling very odd.

This post seems to have 2 themes for me:

1 - BPD partner and how to manage your feelings of worthiness while he is dysregulated. YES

2 - are you capable of attracting a more stable partner  YES

Am I accurate in the themes, or am I misreading something?   YES, those are the two themes.

Yes.  Last time when he bullied me out of his house, he said having me in his life made his life feel cluttered and disorganized. 

Our house was lovely and well organized.

What he was describing was how he was feeling inside.

ok... .   I really think this is better suited to the stayers, Steph, UFN, Briefcase, etc  would likely be experts on this. 

The thing is, I think this is basic self talk for you.  Remind yourself the facts of the disorder.  Remind yourself that you are worthy and his latest outburst is simply that - an outburst rooted in his BPD tendencies.  All dysregulated times, cycle back around... .   once that happens, use DEARMAN to communicate your needs.

Again, I am not in a BPD relationship and I am simply telling you what I know they do over there - I, personally, do not know that I would actively choose this kind of relationship again.  It is simply too much work for me.  I cannot say this on staying, but this is PI.

That said, you went back to him for a reason and with reasonable expectations - these relationships do work, they have moments like every other relationship - maybe a little bigger - but all relationships have issues.

If you are wanting to end the relationship, that is a whole different discussion.


This part and how you do it, kinda not important until you figure out the direction of the current relationship - wouldn't you say?

Haha... .   I knew my ex for years before. We were casual friends. Then she moved to California and we became email friends. Then I moved to Washington and she came and visited and we had quite the romantic adventure. Then 6 months of flights. A magical long distance relationship. An engagement. She moved in with me. And... .   it all went downhill from there. We should have stayed a LDR.  

I knew another girl for a couple years. Always thought she was a bit crazy but she really took an interest in me and was very attractive. She lived with me for 4 years. She was better than my last exgf but when she did lose it she got angry. Scary kind of angry. She had a bad week and things were spiraling up. I packed a get out bag and left it in my car. She attacked me one day and I blocked her punches and maneuvered between her and the front door. She started insulting my manhood and daring me to punch her. I bolted out the door into my car and left my house at her mercy. I didn't come back until she was gone. She took all my furniture but wth I had my freedom. Oh God... .   I moved back into driving range of her area. She contacted me! Must be looking at my facebook page. She is married and with a child and wanted to meet up. Oh man.

Crazy gonna find a crazy magnet. Sorry... .   probably wasn't very helpful. Carry on.  :)

OMG - I need to make that into a T-shirt! lol

Sorry for the quick hijack

Humor is appreciated and much needed... .    |iiii

With that, much  to you, MaybeSo!

My friend, the fact you are bringing up your father in this makes me think you still have some work/grieving to do there. I think you were hurt, again. This is core stuff for you.

You're looking for comfort right now which is perfectly normal. What are your resources for comfort? Of course you have us.  

I think you also may be disappointed that you are starting a new career and you would have liked to be able share that. You have big changes there. With these things going on, anyone would feel a little off balance.

Yes. I've done much grieving regarding the old dad stuff in the last 2-3 years. You'd think I was about done by now. Guess not entirely, if ever. Sigh. 

There is some real truth to this.

I feel I am an expert in dealing with narcisstic men.

My father is a nice guy, but really, pretty codependent, narcisstic, and emotionally immature. And I love him. Have idealized him for many,  many years, even as he has let me and my siblings down over and over. This has set up a pattern of being with immature men who do really hurtful stuff and then thinking if I work hard enough it will get better and just feeling like that's what I can get, these kind of men.  Always earning their love.  If I can just get it right... .   then... .   then it will be fixed and they will love me.  I know there ARE men who ARE more grown up than the men I've been around all my life.  I know there must be some grown up men out there.  I wonder what they would think of me?  Would they even like me?  My freinds tell me men look at me a lot, and that I seem to not notice it.  My supervisor said I'm the only very attractive woman she knows that seems totally UNAWARE of the admiring glances and attention I get in public from men.  I do not take it in.  She notices it, and I don't. Why? What is that?  Attention from men, some of them no doubt maybe nice men,  makes me feel uncomfortable, why is that?

But put a man in front of me that wants to hold court, and I'm on it. He talks. I listen attentively and admiringly.    

This immature stuff from men,  and meeting their needs, this is what loving a man feels like to me.  I can be fiesty and stick up for myself, but I really can adore and labor tirelessly over a man who is really just immature.  I get way too mushy and sentimental and loving with men who really aren't grown-up and can be REAL JERKS to me in many core ways.  But all of them are at times really nice to me in some significant ways, too.  This only confuses the matter for me.  

But it always ends, it's not stable, it's just like the above, they need the nipple. My dad did not really parent me, he held court and allowed me to bask in the glory of his stories, his issues, his love life, his ups and downs and his coming and goings.   It's all about HIM. Always has been. I was the pefect mirroring object for my dad.  Always have been. If I'm not, he distances himself from me.  Just like my any man I've ever dated. All discussions are 98 % about HIM.  Same with my ex.  Maybe 2 % about me.  I can be neutral, happy or sexy... .   but if I'm anything else, sad, angry, perplexed, tired... .   etc, they don't want to know me AT ALL. This is the way of my people, this, it would seem is my normal, I am used to being around and loving immature, narcisstic, men. I'm good at it. I'm not proud of it, but I will say, I am good at it.  I listen and they talk talk talk talk about themselves. What do they want, what do they need, what they are happy about, what they are upset about, what I can do to make them happy, bla bla bla bla bla.  They in turn sometimes do really nice things for me until they get distracted and then theres nothing. They are not all bad, they are just not emotinally THERE and they are very young.  And they can be really hurtful and unreliable.  How my dad looks is always such a big deal to him, cause he's so handsome. He always needs a lot of validation.  My ex does too. Argh, so much work!  I'm really getting sick of these guys.    I do wonder what it's like to relate to a grown-up man who can show up and be like, a grown up man.  What is that like?  I've never really dated a grown up man.  I've dated professional, successful men. But they aren't really grown up.  

He (your ex) triggered you. It's a trigger. How protected have you been from these prior to this reunion? I am finding that I can somewhat measure where I am in my processing/grieving by how quickly I recognize a trigger and how I react to it. The latter is a choice, that, I've learned, and it is not always easy. Oh boy, there have been a few times I wanted to revert back, then I tried the kicking myself really hard for thinking of reverting back... .   Be kind to yourself, you know your past, you're only human and you sound as though you're having growing pains. Trick question, how do you recognize a grown up? (Don't throw a shoe at me  :))

Ok - I am going to go back to you and managing your feelings of worthiness when someone becomes self-centered.  What techniques have you learned in your therapy & recovery?

Suzn is on point in that you are triggered by him suggesting that he is leaving.  Let's look at this from his lens - does he know this hurts you?  Well, he knows it can get a rise and you didn't in the moment - good job.

The other side is he may actually be bored and since it doesn't sound like you have a clear relationship, he may just be mouthing off.  I mean, I have mouthed off to friends (even friends with benefits a long time ago) when I was processing boredom.

I don't you know him or much about your relationship actually, but is it possible you might be wanting him to read your mind? Have you used DEARMAN to explain it once neither of you are triggered?

I know when my "worthiness" button is touched, I lose ability for perspective for a bit - and taking some time away helps me balance out.    I hear you that so much of your life has been dedicated to narcissists - and I am sure this is all triggering all kinds of core worthiness feelings in you.  That is ok - it is normal based on the fact he wants to leave... .  

Sorry to go on a tangent, but besides posting here - do you have any other means to get that negative energy out so you can see this a bit more clearly?  Running, boxing, yoga, crying your eyes out... .   any and all of the above?

I'm not clear why you think I'm not thinking clearly? Though I may be missing something... .  

He and I have done this for 5 years. I'm not bragging, more shameful if anything... .   it's just, this is what we do.

The only difference is I'm not nearly as hooked in as I was for so long. I'm bummed but I'm doing ok, regardless of what he does. I don't feel huge negative energy, I spoke with a good friend last nite right after he left. Shed a few tears, went to sleep. I'm sad but I'm okay. It's the same ol same old.

He cannot committ. He is comfortable for about 6-9 months, then he checks out and wants other women.

He does this with me, he does it with other women.

Last time he bullied me for three weeks until I left our home and fled to my own cottage. He

threw a party in my absence the week I left. He was online dating immediately and found the

new love of his life within a few weeks. He then left that woman. But when he gets like this, he

then compares me to the the the things he liked about the other woman. When I say enough! it's hurtful and insensitive to keep insinuating he wants me to be more like her ( before it was

yet another woman)... . He then feels like he can't share with me and feels persecuted. Yes, he

knows 100 per cent what I find hurtful. There's not even a tiny bit of doubt; we've done this for

well over five years. When he gets this way, I don't just imagine bad things will happen. They

happen.

He will likely go date someone else now.

Or not, but he is once again very unhappy. When he's unhappy, whatever r/s we have is on the

chopping block. This happens like clockwork.

If I listen quietly while I'm compared to other women and validate his feelings about the list of things about me that bother him derply,  it may stop the dysregulation. Maybe. But I don't want

to listen to him talk about other women and what he misses about them and what he wishes I'd

do more of. If it's the price of admission, my answer is no. I can't do it. We had a 5 year r/s, we

were like a married couple. I helped co parent his kids. He took many trips with me and my

family. He knows me very well.

When he gets this way he treats me as though I'm the left overs he has to succumb to in the

absence of the next best thing. I'm treated "as if" I AM unworthy. I think it should be triggering.

Who wouldn't be triggered? I don't buy it at face value, I know I'm worthy of more than what he

implies but it sucks to be near someone who sees you that way. And he seems to see me as

"less than" when he's in this dark place. The whole effervescence stuff is more comparison stuff,

too. The last gal was more social and bubbly. Ok, so go be with her. I'm me.

My way of coping is to get distance from him when he is like this 'cause it sucks to be around.   I don't want it in my home and in my space. I'm glad he's at his place and he's not here. And

while he is feeling this way, I don't really want him here in my home. It's bad ju ju. I don't like

it.

I like David Richos work on being a grown up; I see a grown up as a person who can take care of themselves, is kind and flexible and honest in relationships, is capable of grieving, can maintain meaningful long term relationships, and has realistic expectations.

Maybeso

I have read this thread and I got to this particular post and I got really excited. The reason I got excited is that I believe you are at a turning point in your growth. You are getting sick of listening. It worked for so long. Yes- it worked for me too and it almost still works, the only reason I realise it doesn't work is that I'm getting out there dating and opening myself up to different types of men. Guess who I keep going on dates with? Men who go on and on about themselves AND I'M BORED.

Last night I went on a date with one who did the same old stuff but kept getting distracted with me because he was attracted to me, he kept feeding me bits of attention. I could feel myself melting a little but NO MORE. I was still bored. I could see the me from a year ago. I could see the me from then carrying on seeing this guy, this charmer who had a kind of magnetism everywhere we went. Who I went for a meal with because he insisted i had to eat even though I was fine not eating, who the waiter shook hands with and the bar staff chatted with.   I'm not there yet. I should have just left but I carried on with the date. It was interesting to sit with us and see the dynamics at play.

You can change what you are attracted to. It will change, it sounds as if it already is. The more you see this pattern and the more you try and allow yourself to open up to different things and do the work you are already doing the more you will change. BUT IT TAKES TIME AND PRACTICE.

The big problem? There aren't many grown ups out there! This may take a while. But that's OK because you are enjoying the rest of your life. I got off my ex's hook when I realised I was bored with listening to him. One of the last times I saw him and asked how he was he said 'Maria, please can we not make tonight all about me?' Then didn't shut up for 2 hours.  :) I'm bored listening to narcissistic men. I am bored with repeating the same old patterns in my life. I can see that you are too.

Time for change. Time for a grown up in your life. Hallelujah.

PS forget professional and successful it means diddly squat I've decided. Happy with what they are doing and where they are in the world is what matters. Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan were professionals. Would you want a date with either of them?

Maria, I read yours and P&Cs and any posts re: limited contact and friendship with ex. and comment on them sometimes. I've been in a similar situation, or experiment.

Boredom is what it brings up for me regarding this recent saga. And I agree with you, I see it as a good sign. I am getting to the eye roll stage with this whole dynamic, and I think it's a good sign for me, as you say. There is very little juice even in this last incident with my ex; I do not feel panicked or freaked out. Im sick of my own attraction to this kind of thing, it's not mysterious and alluring anymore. I can see my upbringing did a number on me, but at least I see it very clearly.

Today I woke up in my own Home and it's so peaceful and nice. I just love it.

If I feel sadness or regret, it's just that I am sad that kids grow up with so many confusing, mixed messages about love and you get people like me and my ex. Really nice people, lots to

offer, but just so messed up in areas of attachment. I am sad there is something called BPD and

NPD that really prevents any stable connection as it's too frightening to get close. But, as I say

to many on this site, it is what it is.

He will be fine. He will do his thing, whatever that is.

I will be fine. It is what it is.

Ma'am, he sounds like an epic douche. Lol. Set mr. Batsh!t crazy free, as he cannot comprehend true value.

Really, so,e people need to be put intheir place, which is a sewer river.

Nothing important to add... .   since I'm not around much anymore, I just want to make sure it comes up in my "unread topics" so I won't have to search for it later. This is a good thread - one I want to keep track of.

I will say this though.  If he wants "effervescence," he should take an alka-seltzer.

I, too, am bored with the same ol' men (boys) that I've been attracted to over the years.  I'm at a place where I just can't stomach the BS. I've actually gotten up in the middle of a dinner and walked out because I was repulsed by what I was hearing.  I view this as VERY positive change - not polite, per se - but positive.  I would rather be alone than be with another man child.

turtle

oh... .   and one more thing.

For me, staying in a relationship with someone who is has moments of dysregulation like you've described here is just not an option. I'm not saying it's not good for you, but for me it negates/diminishes much of the work I've done on myself over the years and I'm no longer willing to take steps backwards - even if it's temporary.

Like SB said, I suppose there are people who can make these relationships work - the Staying Board seems to support this, but I often wonder how much truth there really is there.  Anyway, I'm not one of the people who can make Staying work. Realizing MY limitations has become key for me.  I'm just not willing to do it.  I don't want a life filled with the kind of BS you are describing here.  I don't want it if it happens every 6-9 days, 6-9 months, or 6-9 years. For me, the positive NEVER outweighs the negative.

But, that's just me.

turtle

Bravo for you! I wish I could have seen that! 


I agree that being exposed to this stuff sets many of us back and can hurt good progress. My relationship with my BPDex set me back a lot.


Me too.

Regarding staying really working, I don't know. What I figured out "working" meant for my ex, S8, and me, wasn't even close to what I wanted or thought was best for S8.

I read another post in this thread about how difficult change is. It is, on so many different levels. Not only are we going out of our comfort zone, but for many of us, change means going against what we learned through our FOO and after. Yes, our brain is changing, and that takes time. I'm so glad our brain can change!

I frequently have to remind myself how very, very difficulty change is. As was stated in that post, it involves a sense of grief, of loss. Currently, I feel myself holding on because of the fear of the loss and of the grief. I also feel anxiety about whether or not all the effort and pain I go through to make the change will make a better life for me. I have to really use my wise mind to change. I push hard just for baby steps. One thing that is helping me is that I have learned to self-soothe (I still need to practice this more) and, more recently, I have learned to "pat myself on my back" for every thing I do, even for the little things.

Here's a big hug coming through the internet.   

AnotherPheonix   |iiii  |iiii

Wow turtle, thank you for being so articulate. You come off far less hateful than I... .   my description for how I feel, is literally baking in the right hemisphere,  where the metaphors and explicatives reside, and not regular polite person speech.

I get really, really upset at arrogant, presumptive, entitled behavior similar to when maybe so has described. I mean, there is no SET or DEARMAN that will work on these people. The only thing you can do is cut them off, or if you must deal, planning things so that you have their proverbial cojones in a nice brass vice grip that you will tighten until they comply. That is, you either go NC, or very agressively keep the upper hand to insure compliance. It makes me I'll to thnk that one must deal with fellow flesh and blood so heavy handed, but these people work on a zero sum game. Either not play the game, of be on the positive side of zero.

Maryiscontrary -- TIME... .   time is what tempers the hatred.  When I first started making these changes in my life, I was so over the top about it -- heels dug in!  Remember the movie "Network?"  All those people hanging over their balconies shouting "I'M MAD AS HE! AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!"  That's how I was in the beginning -- and it wasn't pretty.  I was soo HARSH. As time goes on, the pendulum swings back and forth and eventually it settles in a more "normal" range. 

That doesn't mean I can't get my panties in a twist over bad behavior -- I CAN, and DO.  Sometimes, we are required to deal with people that can't be easily removed from our lives (like family members,) and that's where I still struggle.  However, in other situations, I have finally come to a place of calm about all of it.  I mean it really does get pretty simple with most people.  I have defined what is and isn't acceptable to me.  If I CHOOSE to put up with poor behavior, that's on ME.  I can gripe about it all I want (and trust me... .   I still do that.)  But in the end... .   if I elect to keep someone in my world who I KNOW is toxic... .   then I will get exactly what I allowed.

turtle

I can relate the boredom experienced when people with narcissistic traits go on and on about themselves, basically dominating the conversation, leaving little, if nothing for you to say.  My father is a lot like this.  What I've been finding, though, is I can speak up in the conversation... . even cut in to what he is saying if need be to get my say in.  I've found that if I'm assertive in this way he will stop what he's saying and listen. 

I think for a long time part of me felt like I did not have a voice in these situations.  I do have a voice, my feelings do matter, and I am important.  Sometimes I felt like my FOO didn't want to hear what I had to say, or maybe they were afraid to, or maybe they were just too self-absorbed to notice.  It doesn't matter.  What matters is that I get my needs met.  And if I cannot get them met in those circumstances, it is important for me to go to healthy people who do listen and care what I have to say. 

I've found that I have the power to control the amount of contact I have with people who tend to drain my energy (if I let them).  I can't cut off all contact if I need to.  I did just that with both of my parents and my sister for nearly 4 years.  They didn't understand at the time, and they probably still don't, but you know what, tough sh!t.  That was for me.

Meant to say, I CAN cut off all contact with someone if I need to, and I have!

I read you loud and clear and... .   GOOD FOR YOU!

What civilized, articulate souls we have on this thread. I have maybe so feels better... .  

I am in the same boat as you here.  I have found I still may have an attraction to this energy as it is FOO familiar, but when I recognize it... .   I step away now.  That old saying, others will treat you how you allow yourself to be treated is so true.


Can I get an AMEN up in here  lol

Don't tell me. . .he's about 50 as well. . .

Middle age + narcissism = run 

Hilarious.


Hi Turtle!  Too funny!  I managed not to tell him to "F-off" when he started in on me,  but, honestly,  it was hard not to... .   the words were right there wanting so badly to come out.


Yea.  I know.  Yuck. He doesn't seem to get that a lot of his behavior when he's dysregulated comes off as hurtful or odd; to him,  it all seems normal. Like there isn't anyone on the earth who wouldn't feel like he feels and tell me the things he tells me. And I'm thinking, who does this stuff?  He implied his T even told him, he needs to let me know what his needs are. Yea,  maybe, but in a way that is palatable and makes sense in context.  That is still missing, completly.

To be fair, he has been very nice and very helpful up until he went to the dark side.  Once he goes to the dark side, as usual, what it always feels like to me, is that he is a TOTALLY different person than when he was feeling better.  

I would have jumped to work some more on the Staying Board in the past; but now. eh.  I don't know.  I don't really want to work that hard anymore.  We parted as freinds, so I don't feel the need to go fix anything, really.  

As mentioned, this was of my choosing.  I know he has this handicap (illness, disorder), I knew it was just a matter of time. He's done some good work in T (at least it sounds like it when he's not dysregulated) so I suppose I drank a bit of the Koolaid again in putting a tiny bit of hope aside that maybe this aspect of his cycle would be less or different with all the good work in T and with almost a year of us going NC... .   but so far, it seems pretty much exactly the same cycle.  After more than 8 years of therapy.  But, I wasn't holding my breath.  That's for sure.


Yea I'm drawn to this energy, too,  it's so normal for me. I think from now on I am going to be very aware and active about noticing and handling this energy with people and stepping away or asserting myself.  


I do!  




Ha Ha Ha!  Yup! You got it, we are both 49 years old; he seems pretty freaked out about aging, I'm sort of taking it in stride.  

 

Ah yes... .   "the dark side."  Once you realize that "the dark side" exists, you have to decide if you are willing to put up with it because "the dark side" WILL surface.  History proves this.  I get that "they" are one way when they are feeling better, but -- for me -- and I'm speaking for no one else here --- that "dark side" is not something I'm willing to deal with. Once a person shows me that "dark side,"  I'm OUT!

However... .   we are talking about YOU here, maybeso.  So... .   when the dust settles and he returns (as you know he will,) what then?  What are you going to do?  Repeat this pattern?  I understand if you say that yes, you will repeat the pattern.  It's ingrained in us and VERY hard to break, so I get it if you return.  We've all done it.  I'm just trying to figure out where you are.

turtle

This may sound awful, but... .   I don't really care what he does.  I have my own place, and I love my own place.  When he is feeling really good and is helpful and sweet, it's kind of hard to turn that down.  Having a man help you install a new remodel on a guest bathroom or hang heavy, new light fixtures or heavy pictures etc., that's valuable to me in and of itself. He's good company when he's not being a douche and he helps me with things that I'd have to pay to have done otherwise. I do of course have to pay for help sometimes anyway, which is fine, but it's easier when he visits and he likes to be helpful that way. I would never allow such an arrangement in the past, but today... .   I'm letting my narcissism out a bit.  He's a peice of work!  And if I do have him in my life in some capacity, I want to make sure I get something out of it, you know?  And this time, I have!  He has been very helpful around the house.  This imacts my life in a positive way. I have something to show for my efforts.  This is how I have been viewing it.  I don't know if that's wrong or what, bu that's how I have been framing it.  My house is really done up nice right now, in large part to his help.  So... .   when he goes to the dark side, I send him on his way and I have my own, lovely home to be peaceful in and enjoy.

When he goes to the dark side, it's not like he stays with me or like we live together and I have to just suffer through it, like before. I only see him on weekends anyway, if he's being a douche, then I take distance and he doesn't come up to my place.  I don't have to live with his negativity.  I have my own place.  

I don't want to marry him, even when he's not in his dark side.

I don't want to live with him.

I don't really want anything from him other than a bit of his company when he's in a good space, but it's not a requirement.

I just live my life regardless, I do what I like to do, and my job, and my freinds... .  

My life doesn't really pivot around him and his moods.

So, I guess I just move along. I'm not really invested in what he does or doesn't do.  I may not see him for the next 6 months, who knows?  I'm not invested or pining away about it, either way.  :)oes that make sense?

That doesn't sound awful. It sounds realistic.




yes... .   actually that makes a lot of sense to me... .   but I question the validity in it.  Invested.  Not invested.  Care. Don't care.

If this is how you truly feel... .   what value does this relationship have?  Does a heavy door installation and some help with a remodel really make up for all the BS?  Maybe it does.  But what happens if Mr. Douche returns to help you around your house and someone shows up that you are really interested in?  That may or may not happen... .   but what if it does?  Do you just summarily kick Mr. Douche to the curb and treat him with the same disrespect he's shown to you?  (I'm a fan of that on some karmic level - and I would LOVE reading about it, but I think we're supposed to be trying to be better than that - lol)

Just curious.

turtle

Speaking of the dark side, I know a thing or two about it, but that's another thread!  Haha.  Anyway, on my way home from work last night they played an old song on satellite radio by George Harrison called Beware of Darkness.  I thought it was apropo.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YELBLoOxfms

And if he returns and you "hook up" again, isn't that the whole mixed message idea?  As in... .   if you only treat me like ___ on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays --- I will still like you (if you help me remodel my house) ... .   but if you throw Friday into the mix, I won't speak to you for a month.  Exaggerated, I know... .   but you get my drift.

Isn't there a part of you that really wants to say... .   "ride off on your motorcycle with your alkaseltzer and be happy." You can let him go... .   forever... .   and he can leave you in peace.  Then you'd never have to do this again!

turtle

It's so very hard to keep them at a safe distance though isn't it? Because you open the friendly door just a little bit and they wiggle a toe in and, before you know it he's remodeling your house?

My pwBPD has an awareness of how he damages relationships and that protects our 'friendship' somewhat. I hope. I try not to let him do anything for me but that hurts him, because he wants to help me. I'm not sure we can get anything from them for us but we have to try and find something because friendship has to have a pay off that isn't just a codependency feed.

Maybe it's just gotten a little too close, for both of you?

Ok, so the poor little baby is scared of aging and has a dark side. Well BOOHOO.

He is just being helpful to distract your from all the other BS he has done. Bait and switch.

I tell you what, if you would like to massage your narcissistic side here are some ideas.

Take all favors, let him pay for everything. If he is good in bed, take it all in, no pun intended.

When he starts btching, get scarce and be dismissive. Create a boundary that if he starts btching, you will change the subject and make yourself unavailable.

If he want to date... .   lol... .   make him wear rubbers. LOL!  Make him wash before he is with you.

I have scored a bit high on ASPD traits, even though I have tons of empathy. it's the asperger combined with extrem defensiveness.

But, don't get me wrong, if you want a business transaction, totally structured,  I can give you a ton of advice on how to approach it like a rAtional robot.

Is this what you want to do. Because I am not sure the others can help you. But ruthless, calculating mary can help you structure this "arrangement" so that you have mostly all upside

Lol... .   so whaddya think?

You say you've done this. How so? Would it be fair to say when you got bored you reached out to him on match.com? Finding your way past the boredom and being truly alone and being ok with it for it's duration is the goal. I remember telling my T I was bored, of being alone, I was only seeing her twice a month back then. Guess what I got? A standing appt once a week, to get me through the boredom. I'm not trying to convince you to end your r/s MaybeSo, that's your choice of course.


This "boredom" you speak of here is completely different from experiencing being truly alone.


I don't think anyone is suggesting you are freaking out or feeling panicked. What I did read repeatedly throughout your thread are the words "no one will stay" (basically) and that you were taken back to core feelings from your childhood. The worthlessness, the disappointment, etc... . Forget the BS, what about this? If you truly long for a healthy r/s working on this first will be key.

You speak of your regrets and sadness, you have much to grieve MaybeSo. My hopes for you are, not matter what your decision to continue this r/s, that you will give yourself much deserved time to grieve these past hurts. You are worth it.

Suzn,

I have been alone most of my life.

I was alone raising my daughter from 6 to 15; I was not hooked up with anyone.

Before my marriage to daughters father, I was without a bf for about 3 years while I finished my first degree.

Last break with my bf, I left, relocated and bought my own home under my own steam; we were mostly NC for about a year.

I met him in 2006 on match.com. My daughter was getting older, and it was time for me to

venture forth and date having been alone since she was six.

I can be alone. Truly. Alone is not a problem for me. If anything, I can lean a bit reclusive. I am very comfortable being on my own. I'm not bored being alone at all. I'm an introvert, I love my

solitude.

I mentioned "panic and freaked" not in response to any comments, but as a comparison to how

different it is now as compared to 2 years ago ... .   2 years ago, I'd be panicked and freaked out.

Now, I no longer feel panicked or freaked out like I use to;  that's all I meant.

Im in agreement that grieving is important; I have grieved more in the last 5 years about FOO than I ever have in my life. I'm speaking of FOO stuff on here as I've been grieving and working

on this very deeply. I actually see this relationship as the catalyst to so much old grief from the past; its been in some ways a gift because of this, though painful. Am I all done? No, but I've

come a long way on that count. A very long way.

Turtle, I'm in the middle of a remodel project right now; I asked him to leave. I don't like being around him when he's this way, remodel or not. I will move forward anyway.

But when he's happy, he's good company (in light doses) and he's helpful. I also am helpful to him, but, I over did my helpfulness in years past. I worked for years on his house when I lived there, and spent probably 15k on moving 3x when he would go south. This feels like I'm taking better care of myself and recouping some of my losses from before. I worked tirelessly to make his life nicer for five years, I helped raise his two kids, did a lot of remodeling and repair and design work of his house/yard. This feels like I'm getting some of that back now for me.  I like seeing him put some effort back into my place. He feels guilty about some of his behavior and helping out lately makes him feel like he's not such a jerk. He makes much more $ than I do.

Works for me! I have a habit of giving but not receiving. I've let him give this time; it feels incredibly weird as I'm not used to it, but it's been good for me.

We have no committed r/s or promises. If I meet someone else I would be honest about it. I hate dating but sooner or later I may meet someone. If he has no commitment to me, then thats the way it goes I geuss. ?

He could meet someone tomorrow! That would be more likely!

When I read what he said to you, it got my hackles straight up. . .how dare he, who does he think he is - it triggered me to the heartless, callous things my ex said to me when (although I didn't realise it at the time) he was in dysregulating mode.

With an objective head on I realise in this state they are 'feeling' these things for real but they say it in the most spiteful way to off-load. . .the boredom, the dis-satisfaction with work, and so the need for attention off other women to buzz them up. . .but they transfer it all onto you.  It's not you, it's them.  Nobody can be everything to someone, and offer a personality to fit every mood    You handled it the best way you could because it's either that or "f**k off".

I mention the 'age' thing because before I questioned the 'personality disorder' aspect of my ex, I thought he was acting out a mid-life crisis.  I maintain he was/maybe still is?  I think these psychological feelings of ageing triggered/or exasperated his disorder.  You may find there is a period of 'storm' coming. 

I could not find the quote but I think you said you were on the phone to a friend because basically it sounded like what he said still 'got to you' somewhat.  I think this is where being involved with them - on whatever level - becomes a chore, and as you say boring. . .especially if this becomes more frequent.  Whatever 'type' of r/s you have with someone - committed and monogamous, open and casual, platonic - you're entitled to respect.  To me, he's gone over the line with this.

My apologies, when SB asked you how you ended up dating your ex again you said match.com. I thought you REconnected with him on match.  :)

I so get being happy with your own home, it's an accomplishment to be a home owner. I spent many, many days using working on my home as a coping technique, not knowing that was what I was doing at the time. It's productive so I certainly recommend it to anyone. Is it possible that some of your projects are coming to a close and with your daughter grown and with your being able to distance yourself from your ex emotionally that this grieving process is getting more "demanding" of your attention? Demanding might be too strong of a word but does that make sense?

I learned what kind of energy working on my house took though. Not that it was bad, I just needed to focus, I put the tools down a year ago and just recently picked them back up. I truly believe the saying "the answers are inside you." It wasn't until I no longer had any distractions that I was able to dig deep and work on me. I get the reclusiveness too, I tend to lean more towards this myself at times. It's just easy. I do make myself get out, not saying you don't. 

This grieving process was really good for me, I can't say there won't be more times of the need in the future. I think this process continues on, meaning if I lose a good friend, I need to grieve it. Or another memory from my past resurfacing. I do know, for me, I want to be more available if and when I do meet soemone. I refuse to allow myself to settle, I have invested my time and heart for the last time in a r/s where I end up feeling just as alone, if not more alone, as when I met that person. I won' t settle for a lack of substance and depth, the lack of the ability to give back in a reciprocal way from anyone.

I had one of these in my life for awhile too.  Not a BPD person, but still... .   a dysfunctional person.  I enjoyed spending time with this person on a limited basis because he was fun to be around.  Not an honest bone in his body (which I didn't know at the time,) but we had fun.  Never a cross word, same interests, easy-going, lots of laughter, etc.   And... .   there are times that I miss that.  However... .   I don't miss his ___storm of dishonesty.  And that's what pushed me over the edge. For me, there's no amount of comfort or familiarity that is worth putting up with that darkside.


Isn't it interesting?  Helping out makes him feel like he's not such a jerk... .   yet he IS.  If he thinks that helping you with a remodel erases his poor behavior, he's sorely mistaken.  That's always a concept that is wasted on so many people.  The only thing that erases poor behavior, is TRUE CHANGED behavior.


I get this.  Like you, I gave, and gave and gave and gave and gave... .   with VERY little in return.  It feels good to get a little back, even if it's loaded with BS and conditions.  Eventually though... .   that gets very old... .   and boring.


It WOULD be more likely for him to meet someone tomorrow... .   God help her.

You sound good to me Maybeso.  Like you are in the "observer" mode in your own life. "Observer" mode is one of my favorite places to be!

Going forward, it sounds like you aren't really tied to the outcome of this situation one way or the other and that's probably a good place to be with someone so "iffy."  I just hope he stays away. Why stay tied (at any level) to someone like this?

Hi Maybeso  

I admire you and Phoebe123 as mentors b/c I am in a similar situation with my SO.  My adult life mirrors yours greatly as far as being a single mother from the time my child was 5 and really not having any significant relationships until the BPD one that started when my child was 13.  I enjoy my solitude and actually crave it to keep centered.  I don't have a problem being alone, but I do have the false belief, like you, that I am unlovable and I will die without having someone really see me and love me for me.  After our second break up and 6 months of NC, I was able to unlock my childhood false beliefs and start nurturing my "little girl".  I also looked at relationship patterns and I too, am redoing what I saw with my parents over and over in one way or another.

I am basically carrying on like you are with your SO.  But I wonder, when he is not dysregulated, is he able to reciprocate emotional giving, not just do repairs around your house?  When you are interacting with him, do you feel seen and appreciated as a special, precious person?  That is what makes it worthwile for me.

Ultimately everyone has different goals.  Stay mindful, appreciate happiness in the moment and don't try to set personal goals based on other people's advice.  (Including mine  :))

Got to get to work.

Take care and my thoughts are with you through this experience

Hi Rossanadann,

Thank you for your post, will likely respond more fully later when I'm have time. But yes. When he is not dysregulated he is very fun and treats me very well. He really can be a very lovely person when not dysregulated.

Does this really work for you in the overall big picture?

Back to the 2 core  themes that we clarified earlier:

1 - BPD partner and how to manage your feelings of worthiness while he is dysregulated. YES

So, you have managed your feelings of worthiness, because you talked about the root causes and have processed what you needed to do to protect yourself a bit while he is dysregulated.   So, is it fair to say - applying radical acceptance - he will trigger your core worthiness fears by his NPD behavior - you will go through a version of this processing each time he does.

It isn't like we never get triggered, it is in knowing our triggers and having a plan that is the key. 



2 - are you capable of attracting a more stable partner  YES

Here is where I see a disconnect in what is likely to happen versus reality.  Again, you said I could ask the hard questions, so here goes... .   in your bio, things ended in June 2011 - exactly how long were you away before getting back together?  HOW did you get back together?  I only ask this because you are a staple on the leaving board and I had no idea the limited contact you referred to was really, for all putting it out there ... .   a relationship - even if sorta a friends with benefits.

I don't think you will attract a more stable partner until you learn how let yourself have healthy intimate relationships - we really will attract what we are around.  If you settle for unhealthy - how are you going to recognize healthy?  I mean, so many of the articles on this board talk about the cycle of dysfunctional relationships and this falls into that criteria.

I get that you have been in T and I also know you have done a ton of work. There is no real right/wrong way on this and rarely do people go to the depth you have for recovery.  If you choose to keep your BF in your life in this way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.  Be aware of your triggers towards unworthiness and process as you have - fantastic... .   honestly.

However, to think that staying in this pattern will result in some other healthy relationship, I think you know that is unlikely - you have had enough therapy and read enough books to know this.  If this pattern works for you, which it sounds like it actually does - how can you reshape your own thinking that will allow you to accept this for what it is?

I see this thread has been moved from PI to staying - it seems this part of your question was more about PI, so I hope you take in in that spirit, not in staying spirit.

What he said to you also got my hackles up.  He can't find his own "effervescence," so he projects onto you.  No bueno.  I realize it's part of the disorder, though, and with a pwBPD, it's par for the course.  Still... .   got my hackles up reading what he said to you.

I know what you mean about, "Who does this stuff?"  After reading one of my ex's recent, cold, self-centered emails, I asked my T friend, "Who IS this guy?"  She said, "He's a wounded soul who doesn't know how to love."

I agree, sm, about respect being mandatory in any kind of r/s.  

Hi Maybeso,

I can see that you are a very intelligent, articulate person. You have been taking a deep look at yourself and your FOO issues. I also have FOO issues around my father and I am just starting a similar journey. Your insightful posts have clarified a few things for me in that area. I have been hovering over them for a while but it was good to see them clearly written down.

This situation with your ex does seem to have triggered a lot of FOO stuff for you (as it would) and I think it's really healthy that this situation has resulted in you thinking about YOU and not HIM. That's a healthy place to be and worthy of a big pat on the back. I am not there yet but would like to be able to do that at some point soon. Where I am right now a situation like yours makes me wrap myself up in knots thinking about HIM! So well done to you - it sounds like you are doing a good job there. Whatever path you take you will be ok with the frame of mind and situational reflex you have achieved for yourself. On a less serious note - get a dog! Honestly the happiest time in my life and when I picked the best emotionally available men was when I had a dog, all my maternal and attention and caring feelings went to her! When she sadly went to the kennel in the sky my ability to choose wisely seemed to go with her. Strange but true, the void left seemed to be the right size for a BPDbf to fit into!

I noticed this too -- and there's nothing that I've read in maybeso's posts that indicates she's staying.  Anyway... .   since this is now on the Staying Board, that means I'm out.

turtle

MaybeSo, I didn't see this till it got moved to Staying. Wow. What is it with these guys and their 5 year"travel the world" projects?  As you know, mine has embarked on just that.

And that departure and his subsequent announcement that he would randomly move to another city, did force a crisis of sorts for me, because try as I might, ultimately, I found "oh, great, I support whatever you thunk you need to do" to be at odds with my own sense of loyalty to the r/s and to what it means to genuinely care about and be connected to another person.  And I ended up protesting it, ever so gently & nicely, because to let it pass seemed like a form of self-abandonment.

That decision probably ended up costing me the r/s. After 8 months of nearly constant post-NC communication, he's disappeared completely. It's been a month since I wrote, & he's just gone.

So I've spent lots of time since, some assisted by y'all on Staying, debating whether it was worth it. In that thinking, I've mulled a lot about the limits of what one can accept, even from someone wBPD, in the name of radical acceptance, without doing some damage to our core sense of value and worth.

I feel like you ex's announcement of his planned departure, his statement of his boredom, his disrespect for all the dedication & beauty & insight & commitment & loyalty you've contributed to his life over the years that is embodied in "I'm bored" & "I'd be more committed to you if you'd handled your timing belt better" & "I wish you were more effervescent" (!) ... .   those things just ARE toxic to your self-worth. They are to anyone's, no matter how much you understand about BPD & how much you try to depersonalize and detach emotionally.

Fundamentally if you need to detach so much emotionally that this stuff doesn't hurt you (for me, enough that his sudden choice to completely change our communication dynamic, our ability to see each other, his permanent home, had no ability to hurt me or make me sad), what is left?  You know?  I think this is the inherent problem in trying to maintain these post-r/s intimate connections with pwBPD.  To survive, we have to strip it of almost all meaning.  If we start to sneak in some meaning, thinking there might have been some change & learning, as you say was sort of happening to you... .   we are setting ourselves up for hurt & a fall.  Yet if we don't ... .   what's the point?

Hi Maybeso

I can really relate to your thread... .  

I have flipped-flopped around in my mind so much until it's fallen out at times!  Trying to figure out what the hell is going on here?  What IS this relationship?  It's craziness, hmmf.

Until I committed to the fact that this IS the relationship, and I must be pretty darn content to have spent almost a decade in it

We all have our own tolerance levels to ~weird~ circumstance... .    And a lot of the ~weirdness~ comes from my end.  I'll catch myself going into fight-or-flight mode now and get into Wise Mind; AMAZING!  Wow, to be able to catch my own neorosis totally freaks me out in a good way, a way that I can actually change my own behavior and thought processes... .    Good stuff |iiii

To see this relationship for what it is; a deep caring for someone who holds the mirror image of myself.  Kooky.  

The good outweighs the bad as far as I'm concerned lol  I am crazy about my guy.  Whether our more-than-what-"healthy"people-define-as-friendship will withstand the test of time-- I don't know.  He might meet someone else.  I might meet someone else.  Who knows?  But BPD doesn't even play a factor in it (in my mind anymore); people find other people to hang with all the time, even in the most 'seemingly normal "committed" relationships'.

Maybeso, if it works for you, it works for you

If he's being a douche, chalk it up to BPD and whether or not he crossed an important value of yours.  When he crosses into 'don't even go there' land, let it be known in a way that you know he understands.

And in the meantime, consider it history in the making lol

I just don't even take it that seriously anymore, because when I do I know it's my own issue and I can handle it.  He cannot handle it at times, but I can.  He'll do things to push me away and it's like, 'alright, I know what the score is'... . do my own thing and here he comes... .  I think that's 'effervescence' in his mind.  A little drama goes a long a way... . lol

These guys will do what they do and so do we... .    It's fine!  It's what actually defines the craziness!

I hope you're feeling good and that you don't get too down deep into the recesses of your mind.  Although, that can be good, too!  Sparks ~creativity~ *)

This is your life!  Make it special

I completely agree w/you Phoebe that if it's good for us, it's good.  I think you've done an amazing job of illustrating that & demonstrating how not to let the BPDness be toxic.

But I feel like that is pretty unusual, maybe partly b/c of your skills & attitude, but maybe also because your guy hasn't decided to take off on a 5 year motorcycle tour of the world.  If he did, you were saying on my thread a couple weeks ago, you'd tell him it was NOT ok with you, & would pretty much end the r/s & disengage.  Like you're recommending to MaybeSo here, if her guy crosses an important line.  You were conveying "there are things that just cannot be swallowed or coped with or accepted even in these special BPD relationships. Some things are antithetical to a r/s."

I just want to say, MaybeSo, that your explicit & between the lines message in what you've written on this thread sounds like you're saying  your guy is in that territor, where harm is being done despite all your analytical understanding & skill @ BPD wrangling & detachment.  I hear "wow, that hurts."  I also recall a certain wise poster (named MaybeSo) writing a while back that it's a mass delusion that one can have sex w/o emotional involvement (at least a sustained sexual r/s w/the same person).  So what we've got here is emotional involvement and some creeping hope of change, and then a rather overwhelming dose of "I don't recognize your value and may not be here tomorrow."  I just feel like there are few human beings on the planet for whom that is not a poisonous cocktail.

And I am just coming to feel that "so, care less then" (not referring what I hear you saying, Phoebe, but rather to a lot of advice about depersonalizing, no expectations & detachment as strategies to not be destroyed by these relationships) doesn't really engage what is going on w/us in these situations, b/c if we don't much care, whether they stay or go, what is the f'ing point of all this? I guess many of us could argue that the point is that when it's good, it's good. I just feel like some of the abandonment & denial of our worth does harm no matter how well we understand it.

P&C, MaybeSo's guy hasn't actually left yet.  It could be the BPD doin' the talkin'.

I believe, it's our attitude and the beliefs we hold about ourselves that makes a huge difference in any relationship, or just life in general.  That's not to say we don't care deeply for others, it's accepting that we have no control over what another person chooses to do, especially another person with a disorder.

And I have 'detached' for far less than threats of moving away.  When it hurts me, I detach.  And as I've said numerous times, we all have our own limits.

Wow, lots of really good input, thanks to everyone, truly.

I'm not on a regular keyboard so can't reply as thoroughly and with quotes as I'd like but will start.

To be clear, I do not enjoy his company when he gets dysregulated. When it moved to comments I found hurtful, I did feel triggered. I wanted to put distance between us for the time being, and I did. It got just slightly heated, but it never got into an ugly argument. And I took care of myself by ending the visit. Not with a huge amount of drama-trauma, or any huge declarations about what it all means for the future. It was just more like, you are unhappy, I cant fix if for you but support you doing what you need to do, now bye bye. I already have a boundary with him about comparing me to other women; so, while he

started in that direction it was ended quickly.

In the past, this would have floored me. I would be devastated. Just emotionally gutted.

I cannot stress enough how good it feels to be this distanced emotionally from his stuff. Yes

I don't like hearing what he said, but I am not devastated. I do feel I've come far enough to

stay pretty grounded and I do see it as dysregulation and not personal.  That doesn't mean

I have to like it or tolerate it, and I don't, or stay and argue about it with him, and I did

not.

I took space. Yes it touches some old sore spots hearing a man you feel warmly toward, tell you "you are not enough". When he gets to that place, it has  to stop.  I can see even more

clearly ... . ,he was itching for a huge blow out reaction from me to off load the crappy way he has been feeling; this was brewing for about 2 weeks. I did not move into my usual dance pattern with him... .  I

started a few old dance steps ... .   and then caught myself.

This is a guy in a depression that has a habit of off loading it on loved ones. He knows

exactly the soft places to poke; it gets a reaction, and BAM, I'm acting out his suffering and

discharging it for him and with him. All the fireworks and dramatics  are just the same old

dance steps. He did not get that from me.

This IS different.

What does the future hold?

I don't know. And I'm okay with not knowing.

This is very different; in the past, I'd be a total anxiety ball in having to label or define what we are and nail it down or tie it up; committed, not committed, broken up or not, timelines that had to be met, having to know exactly where this is going or be miserable not knowing, needing answers that aren't there. I'd be on the phone trying to nail it down, are we still together, a couple, taking a break? How long? What are the rules?

Today, I dont know and I'm fine not knowing. I don't know what the future holds with him. Who knows? I love not caring. That's not the same as dislike or total indifference, there are things about him I like and I care for him. But it's not crucial. It's not mission critical to MY well being. I feel fine. This is very different.

I don't thing I'm totally free of whatever imago match this personality style holds for me, but I am much more free of the hooks that use to really do a number on me big time. Part if me wants to face down the beast and deal with it once and for all. To me, it's like taking a bit of poison to build up your overall immunity. Or, exposure therapy to get over PTSD or a phobia.

This 49 year old wounded man thinks he would be happier if I were more bubbly or everevescent. Ya, it's a totally crappy thing to say,  but it's also kind of stupid. Its not real. It's horrifying at first, getting a glimpse of the monster under the bed, but if you turn on the lights you can see, its just a pair of old shoes you left there.

It was a crappy, insensitive thing to say. Fighting with him, holding onto it, being devestated, mixing it up with my own long buried issues of self worth (not even realizing it at first)  that was when I totally bought into it deeply, emotionally... .   and his words would haunt me for months, like a nightmare.  Not anymore.  I didn't like it, it was yucky, triggering... .   And the evening ended without fireworks. It was time for him to go. He took his dysregulation and crappy feelings with him.

And I feel at peace.

This is very different. He doesn't have the power over me that he use to. This feels good

and very different.

lol  You're awesome!

Hi P&C

I do think my choice is unusual. We could probably put a disclaimer on this thread "don't try this at home." Lol

Seriously, I'm processing my stuff here, and it's just my stuff, it shouldn't be seen as a recommendation or template for anyone else unless it resonates or offers something of value. It's just a process I'm churning through right now. I know there's no one size fits all.

I do feel it's near impossible to be intimate with someone and feel nothing.

I think im more emotionally detached then i was before... . But I don't "feel nothing" about this man or my time with him, and his comment hurt, because I do have warm feelings and a

history and a connection there. I'm just not hooked into it at the same, deep, visceral level

the way I used to be before, if that makes sense.

Connect, I actually think your idea to get a dog is really interesting! I can see all that good unconditional positive  regard spilling over into attracting healthy relationships!

maybeso, thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart, for your honesty and for being so transparent. i struggle with all of the issues that you do, and am going through the same process and growth and questions that you are. this post has really helped me. much love to you, in the continued struggle for clarity and peace! 

Yes yes and yes. I can relate. I can practice my stuff in a way with my pwBPD that I can with nobody else because you know what? It isn't all him! It never was.

I say do whatever you need to do Maybeso. You are your own leader and you didn't, as I understand it, start this thread asking for advice on whether you should cut him out of your life. The ability to grow as they push and pull, the ability to stand firm and continue on your own journey of self discovery is worth it to me. If it isn't worth it to others then that's OK too.

I don't think emotional intimacy can be part of the deal with a person with BPD traits/ attachment issues unless you are striving to have a relationship with them. It's my choice not to want that and how I try and handle my contact, albeit with advice from those who have experience of living with the disorder.

Every individual is unique. Every relationship/ friendship is unique. We all have our dealbreakers.

Also by moving this from PI to staying your original question is lost/ changed and I think that isn't positive. My view is there is more complexity to this than cut BPDex out and you'll be able to find a way to stay in a healthy relationship. Or stay and make the r/s more healthy. It is not so black and white.

I'm wondering if you may be choosing to hide yourself in an emotionally unavailable quasi relationship because the time isn't quite right for you yet. This relationship is further practice for you of facing your fears and playing out the new you with men you are outgrowing.

Just an extra thought or two.

As you said, even with 8 years of therapy, when he is dysregulating he continues to say hurtful/spiteful things with no awareness.

Can you expand on the boundary thing above. . .so, you have had to put a boundary in place about him for example, making comparisons with other women.  Does this involve you telling him to go, you leaving or whatever if he does it?

Do you mention the fact he has done it when he is calm?

What will you do if he continues to do it. . .or do you accept it and your boundary is just to not inflame the situation?

All you have said I totally get, especially the 'flooding' like situation to 'face-the-fears' of BPD.  I think this is why sometimes we feel we want to re-engage.

Being free of the "need to know" what the future holds is pretty freeing for ones soul!  Allows us to kinda, carpe diem!, if you will  *)

And I'll just say this about a dog... .   awesome people hang out at the dog park   :)

You rock MaybeSo, we think and process in a similar fashion, I can relate!

CiF

Sm15000,

Right, I know!  After 8 years, you would think!

I've done about 8 years of therapy, though, too.   And I still struggle to separate and tease out what's an old childhood wound from someone's elses crap, too,  but I'm doing better at it.

His comment while crappy, was also a kid with low self esteem who externalizes all scary bad feelings. He is very wounded, probably with less awareness. There's a part of him that thinks I have the power to be more of something that will make him feel loved and that i can provide something (everevescence) that will take his pain away. When I don't do that, his deep fear is that I withhold it because he is unworthy, too.  that's too frightening; it comes out as a demand to

a mean mommy... .   "you need to be more... . , ". He has to make himself feel better, I can't do

it for him. And the same goes for me. He can't make me feel worthy or not, it's in my

hands, my responsibility, ultimately.  Neither of our parents were in the room when we had

that talk, but it in a way, they were. That's what I want to get clear on. I don't know if he

will ever get clear of old ghosts in the room, BUT I want to! Every time I yelled at him for being a jerk it just reinforced for him that I was just another abusive parent.

My experience has been he starts talking about other women when he is getting dysregulated and feels crappy.  Something bad is happening inside of him when OW get brought up, almost without fail. He may look calm, but his face looks fearful and sad. All the OW stuff has something to do with his own lack of self worth, or maybe even deeper into some emptiness that I don't really understand fully. He thinks I'm withholding something from him, that would fill the emptiness. That feeling of emptiness is the one of the criteria for BPD that I actually don't personally understand fully cause I do not feel empty inside. This is where it goes to something deeper with him, than it does for me. The next new pretty mirroring object WILL make all that pain go away. For a while. Then it's back to the same pain again and again.

Basically, in the past, I was so hurt by his comments that the whole thing would just

explode into an ugly mess and we both feel even more traumatized and more wounded.

Today I'm just saying, dude, I can't fix this for you. You'll have to do this for yourself.

And the boundary is, I will take space when I need it, cause it was a sucky conversation.

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