BPDFamily.com

Hello friends

It's been a very long and winding road since I first came to bpdfamily.com in December of 2011 during the tumultuous time of being in a r/s with my BPDg/f. 

After a rocky break up full of the normal nastiness, rage, etc we came back together under the delusion of being "just friends".  For a while though? it really seemed to work!  I learned many of the tools taught here, grew emotionally within myself and other than some minor, momentary blips we were pretty good.

The past few months though,  I've grown weary of being the emotional caretaker, this (what I now believe is happening) impending further distancing and parting of ways seems to be a rather natural thing at this point.

All the love in the world cannot cure or make any of this right.  I've tried, earnestly tried to be what she needed, while also respecting and caring for myself.

The sad truth is I need to move on, and taking the leap off the cliff has me reeling today.  My head is foggy, it aches, and there is this huge, wind sucking, gaping hole in my chest, a hole that I need to allow to close over and heal.  That little voice is telling me that I am doing exactly as she fears, abandoning her.  But I need to make myself the priority, love myself the most, stop this insanity.  God knows I've given it my best shot.

My heart is broken all over again.  This time the detachment and trying to let go come to me as an old friend it seems.  A familiar aching that almost paralyzes me with grief.  Grief shouldn't feel familiar though, heart ache shouldn't be a weekly illness to have to deal with.

I'm feeling deflated, guilty, and disloyal to want to no longer be in contact with her.  Not making any proclamation to her, (at least not today), she doesn't even realize what's happening in my heart and head, and that our daily phone calls, text messages, impromptu lunch dates, our usual activities will no longer continue.

I'm giving into my sadness today.  Tomorrow I'll begin my life as single, both in my heart, and to all who know me. I am my priority now, my feelings, my wants, my needs.   Even though XBPDg/f said we were just friends, we were waaayy more than friends.  I accepted the inablitly to recognize the relationship on her part, allowed that in order to not pressure her, because I loved her, I love her still more than I can put to words.  There is so much between us that is good... .   I've asked God why soo many times.

My heart is broken.

Oh CIF.   

It's haunting to watch so many people over time (I first found bpdfamily.com in Feb 2012 and came to Staying in fall 2012) try and try and change and change and still get trapped in a corner of the chessboard and checkmated in the end by BPD. The pincers of self-respect and our values on the one hand, & BPD-driven inability to trust and have confidence in love on the other, eventually leave no good options.

I've learned so much from you & am still learning from you. I'm proud of you for being true to yourself and also to the r/s and to your genuine love for her.  You certainly can be confident that, if this could've gone differently, you would have made that happen.

I am so struggling today, doubting myself.  Even though I spoke the truth, my truth with love, the disentanglement is almost too much this time.

I've jumped into a project to keep my mind busy, and I know my mind is within my control only, but I'm afraid right now... .  afraid I've caused hurt and damage. I know pwBPD don't process and think like we do, but this feels horrible, as horrible as the day first came here... .  sigh  

BPD sucks! I suck... .  

Hi Cardinalsinflight

I think it gets to a point where it's you or them. It sounds as if you have been choosing her for a long time and it has to be time to pull away and put you first. I know that it feels as if you are literally physically detaching and it feels impossible, as if you are ripping something out of each of you. But you are not

Read your first post in this thread again and know that is your real truth and that you don't actually have another option. You know you are way more than friends. You have to stop the pretense and look to you now.

So many people here can help you detach. It will be hard but you can put all that strength you have used to care for her so immensely and wonderfully into caring for you.

Feeling for you x 

Thank P&C, and Maria1

I had a  :light: moment in the night and I'll share the anology.

When you have a loved one, close friend, relative dying, who happens to be on life support and are faced with the choice of "pulling the plug", withholding nutrition, whatever the case may be, you think about it long and hard, seeking every answer, all the wise counsel at your disposal before making that awful decision.  You're at peace with your final decision and the day comes to follow through with end of life measures.  After it's done, you feel relieved, almost as though a huge rock was lifted from your shoulders.  And then, out of the blue comes this awful panic of "have I done the right thing, OMG, how could I have done that?"  The guilt, the enormity, the finality of your decisions hit you square in the eye.

Well, you know the rest.  Of course you did the right thing, you prepared, were thoughtful, you prayed, you sought counsel.

I'm in an ok place today thanks to some awesome friends who peeled me off the ceiling yesterday because I was having my, "OMG moments".

I went to church this morning for the first time in a long time, it felt wonderful and was humbling and very centering to me.

I don't know what tomorrow holds, but I'll be ok.  It sucks though, in a major way to leave or let go of someone you love so much.

If you love something set it free, eh?  :'(

CiF

  I remember seeing you go back into the r/s with your eyes open and determination to do your best. I'm so sorry that it didn't work out. 

Right now I'm thinking about a r/s of my own that seems due for a change or an end. (Not my wife--things are good there) But I've been thinking about it, deliberating with myself, and trying to work things out... .  But I'm feeling a smaller shadow of your dilemma.


Would that thing you are loving and setting free be yourself this time?

Wishing you healing,

GK

Thank you 

Well, after almost a week, my pwBPD reached out by text.  I was a little nervous about it but after thinking it through and a few deep breaths I responded lightly, politely but without truly engaging.

I'm continuing to make plans for myself with others, I'll not be available if she reaches out again to make plans etc.

I hate this part, it's like an aganol rhythm  :'(

Note to self: Must. Remain. Calm. Self-Focused.

CiF

How would it feel to change your number or block her? Possible?

CIF -

I've a couple of months behind you in this amazingly disturbing process and like you am dealing with the physical fall out (nightmares for me).  I have come to wonder at the impossibly high  level of emotional intensity that can create this many physical symptoms.   I was reading on a different website about the difference between intensity and intimacy, to paraphrase we pour intimacy into the relationship and they pour intensity and the end product is this very fraught bond. 

My thoughts are with you today.

It does... .  it hurts so many people and causes so much misery!

It also sucks the life out of you... .  stay busy and good luck on working on YOU!

I can't block, not yet anyway.  She's pretty high functioning, mostly level-headed.  With limited, non-engaging contact, she'll get it  :'(

I always thought I was really good to her, I didn't even want much.  Just encouraged occasionally, told that I'm important.  I didnt think that was asking too much, sigh... .  

CiF

Since this is the staying board - I am curious as to what you are looking for?

You went back as friends, as such - friendships do go through ups/downs... .  this is normal.  I take breaks from friends when their drama gets to be too much, I think a lot of people do.  However, the grief that you describe seems more than "friendship".   

Is the goal to detach a bit for you to get your boundaries/balance under control or is your goal to leave her life forever?

I'm well aware this is the staying board, what I'm not well aware of is exactly where I belong atm.

The dynamic has become really jumbled, I thought long and hard before even hinting I had an issue with the down turn of the "unship".

We were waaayy more than 'just friends'.  And ups and downs are normal yes, I've become accustomed to that. 

I suppose I'm more needing to reestablish a couple boundaries, stepping back to do so.

I don't know how it will play out, I just know that something has to change and I'm the only one who can... .  

I'll land somewhere eventually.

Well, you are on the right board if you are simply taking a timeout to reestablish boundaries... .  this is why I was asking because the title seems you are leaving, but since it is the staying board and you have a relationship, it seems maybe you just needed a timeout.

Have you considered using DEARMAN technique to explain what/why you are changing the dynamic a bit?  This way, you are not knowingly pushing abandonment buttons, yet establishing some new boundaries.

I initially thought I'd be better off on the Undecided Board.  What I'm wavering with right now? Would it be better for me, to just let this go, all of it.  Sometimes I really don't think she would notice.  I know how I sound right now too... .  

Thanks SB, my T is on hiatus right now and seeing what I write helps me to process.

I'm not sure where all this "crap" inside of me is coming from, my own abandonment issues I guess?  ":)o unto others... .  " I dunno.  I feel like I've lost my wings

CiF

Hmmmm, thought we all did things at our own pace?  Could I not have "been winding down" IN MY OWN TIME?

I've been on Staying Board, been supportive to those who are there because I understood how difficult it is to navigate these BPD waters.  I'm by no means an expert, But with all due respect, isn't it for me to decide to switch boards?  I'm struggling yes, I'm human, yes!

I'm also very much involved with someone whom I love deeply who is afflicted with BPD.  If I can't come to bpdfamily.com and process, with the hope of support? What's the point here?

I realize how I sounded, muddled, who of us hasn't had muddled, effed up days being in these relationships?

So much for take your time, nothing has to be decided today... .  

CiF

  CiF, my heart really goes out to you, especially because you sound so confused and conflicted, and all over the place emotionally.

At the beginning of this thread, you sounded resigned to giving up and moving on, even though it hurt.

Yesterday, you just sounded lost and confused... .  as if the happy part of your soul had just gone AWOL.

Today, I don't care which board the mods move this thread to. I just care about how you are coping. 

It sounds to me like you were trying to let go of some expectations with your gf, and now have noticed that you didn't do as well as you thought... .  and some of those missed expectations turned into resentment and came back and took a big bite out of your heart.

How can we help you now?

GK

I know it is frustrating to be undecided about where to be and what to do.  Looking over at choosing a path, you are on that track in that you stopped the bleeding and took a step back to look in the mirror.  Good Job!

Whether you slowly detach into not really having a relationship or you are going to go back - it seems you want to work on some boundaries... .  

Since you said you did become more than friends - do you know how that happened so you can set firm boundaries to protect your own emotional state if there is a next time?

I think, from reading her story, that CiF wants to be more than friends, and they have been more than friends, it's just that her pwBPD doesn't care to acknowledge that explicitly.  I don't get the sense that CiF has ever (till now, & maybe not now) sought to enforce a boundary of being friends only.

Hi CIF!

I'm so sorry that you are hurting.  One thing we can always count on is that these relationships HURT!


I get your frustration about having your thread moved.  We post where we post for a reason and it's frustrating to have that taken away.  You wanted to clear things up on the Staying Board and I respect that so much! 

It's not fair for us to to assume that you want to be more than friends or that you have been more than friends or anything else.  We want to hear from you... .  how you are and what you need from us to be able to move forward with your life.

What's important here is how YOU are feeling and dealing right NOW.  These relationships -- and where we put them in our spiritual purse -- is what's important. The importance we assign to them is what gets us through today, the next day, the next week, year, etc.

How can we help you CIF?  If you need to wind down in your own time, please feel free to do that!  We all arrive at the end gate differently.  There's just no road map or time frame for this stuff. And... .  You do NOT suck!

turtle

The important thing is your decisions are made with your eyes wide open, you know the "whys and where fors". It is a subjective decision made from a position of knowledge and clarity. That will make your future more productive and reduce the rose colored if onlys.  Unfortunately you have to have really tried to make a difference, and lived the dysfunctionality, and failed in order to reach that point

I know one thing for certain, I'm in self-protection mode with limited contact while I figure it out, and while I'm figuring it out, I'm still in some sort of relationship with my pwBPD.

Admittedly I accepted our unship for what it was, a relationship without acknowledgement or a label.  I was treated well for the most part with the usual ups and downs of BPD navigation.  I learned when to pull ME back, that has worked, until now. 

I don't know if I can keep this up until we just aren't even in touch anymore, or if that would even happen?  I just do not know... .  I'm trying not to "drive it", centering on myself.

I guess only time will tell?  I want to be sure, I'm not sure of anything right now.

I apologize for being moody, but I felt disrespected in moving my thread.

CiF

I totally get that. TOTALLY!

No worries, CIF. I'm glad you're protecting YOU!  That's the most important thing now.

turtle

Moody is ok - and this is your safe place while you figure out what to do next with your BPD.  I assure you it was not a sign of disrespect as much as there are VERY clear guidelines on staying and the water you are navigating means a discussion of leaving or at least detaching pretty significantly - stuff that doesn't bode well as a staying thread or leaving thread  - thus undecided.


That is ok - we all need to put some self-protection in place at times while we figure out things. 


As some wise members on staying say, "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck - it's a duck".  You were in a relationship and you had expectations.  This is the looking in the mirror part and getting really honest with yourself.  Step 3 in choosing a path

My question is - if you want a true relationship with her - it is ok... .  just own it.  Did you or do you want a "labeled" relationship and is this even an option?


Well, certainty is not something any of us get... .  how much I wish that was not true.

I am a problem solver - using facts - if your initial post is a vent, that is ok - it seemed, however, that you were looking for solutions, not simply some validation or a cookie cutter answer.  If that is true, I urge you to look at step 4 of choosing a path and then step 5.  Taking the time to do this can help in determining what is in your best interest... .  if I were you, I would post it here - so you can see it in writing.

No matter the path you choose - there are tools and approaches to help.  Again, needing a break from time to time is normal in BPD relationships, but one must also be mindful that being in a relationship with a pwBPD means a certain responsibility of NOT disappearing and reappearing.  What do we say when they do that to us?

CIF - there is no right or wrong in this and nothing is certain - but choosing a path by writing out the realities of if you stay or go and the boundaries and personal responsibility you assume with whichever path is something that should be well thought out and taking a step back to do this is healthy.

Peace,

SB

Thanks SB, here's what you said that brought some things to mind... .  "No matter the path you choose - there are tools and approaches to help.  Again, needing a break from time to time is normal in BPD relationships, but one must also be mindful that being in a relationship with a pwBPD means a certain responsibility of NOT disappearing and reappearing.  What do we say when they do that to us?"

I'm confident that I have been a true constant in her life over the past 2+ years.  When a break was necessary, it was she that pulled back, and kept to herself for whatever time she needed.  I became accustomed to that, and also realized it had very little, or nothing at all to do with me.  I reassured always that I am here.  These pulling back times, as folks here on bpdfamily.com describe, come after a period of intense closeness, good times, open communication.

The relationship does quack  , so when I got the old "we're just friends, I don't want to hold you back from dating" speech, I was floored.  It's almost like I needed to be "reminded" that whatever it was we had, wasn't real.

And I can't figure out why, if I said something, didn't say something, I can usually pin point the trigger. (She also said she was not interested in dating or being with anyone)  So do I believe her? Kinda sounded like a get lost yanno?  Then she calls the next day, on schedule at the time she usually does, but the rest of the week has been sparse because I'm not initiating anything.  I'm detaching a little more than what is usual for me.  Purely to protect my heart and overall well being while I try to sort this out.

So, if I stay? am I going to be reminded on a regular basis that I'm not special? To disregard all of the outward appearences?  The actions that totally betray her own words?  

I don't know which path to take right now.  If I do as she suggests?  it'll be me leaving her.  If I just kinda go along right now without a particular purpose? I look like a doormat, neither of which sound very good to me atm.

CiF

Hi there

Sorry if I'm butting in but can you not 'stay' in a less intense way? It's what I'm trying to do with my ex, jury not yet in on whether it works but does anything work fully? This is a disorder after all!

I can still use the tools, still work on my boundaries, still live my life. For me, as long as he's not in my head and I'm not triggering him I think we are doing OK. I have no control over the triggering stuff but I try and stay light. It's early days. I abandoned him last time he pushed and I don't want to do that again. I don't want to abandon me though so I need to keep assessing. If that assessing tips into obsessing I will seriously need to reconsider.

I don't know if that helps but I don't think the choice is only between staying as you were or leaving. Maybe more of this is in your hands than you think.

That's kind of what I've been doing past couple of months Maria. (and NO WAY butting in!  )  I was begining to feel more and more used.  I know we have all heard this, and done it, but I was giving too much with very little return, or less than what I could accept from her knowing her BPDness.  All of my standards, for lack of a better way to say it, have been adjusted to go along with her history.

When there is an issue, and I know what the issues are this time, I get thrown under the bus.  But there is usually one tiny thing to set the decline in motion.   I did say to her that this hurts me and I cannot keep doing it.  Of course that was wrong... .  

As I said last night, the contact is limited, ergo less intense until I can wrap my mind around one path or another.   I'd never have this problem telling anyone in my life to take the proverbial hike if they were treating me as she does.

Thank you Maria, you have great insight. 

CiF

This is eerily familiar.

These are hard relationships no matter how you slice it. Sigh.

My post a couple weeks ago about a very similar issue, started on Personal Inventory, got moved mid stream to Staying, then locked at 4 pages just when it was getting into deep waters. I may reconstitute it on PI, but, the bumping and locking makes for a rather disjointed processing experience.

I feel for you, on all counts.

I wrote a reply earlier but lost it on session timeout without realising.

I think I said this:-

What stands out to me is this


Yes, absolutely I'm afraid. This is the illusion of the relationship or unship that you were seeking. It was for me too. I needed the special feeling my ex gave me (and boy did he) because I didn't get that I could find that special feeling for me, that's exactly where I need to find it actually. Nobody ever told me I was special just for being me, nobody ever loved me just for being me. I'm learning to love myself for being me. It's a tough journey but it's absolutely necessary if I'm going to fill the void that BPDex or an other person might fill for me.

I think my ex does see me as special, but only through disordered thinking. Only because he needs to see me as that because I fill his void so well, TODAY. Tomorrow his void will be of a different shape and Maria1 won't fit quite so well but that void is always there.

So... .  once we lose the illusion that our friendship/ relationship is so special, that they really see us as any more special than the next person, what's left? That's for you to decide. I'm still working that out for me. In assessing that I am no longer obsessing about my ex. If it begins to tip from assessment to obsession I need to reassess.

But I don't want to abandon him because I can't be bothered with the hassle of it (my particular failure last time he pushed at my boundaries).

I wonder if you really need to think about where your boundaries are. Boundaries are for YOU. They aren't any good if you bend them to fit around her needs because you want to keep hold of her or because you want her in your life on any terms.

So she needs a daily phone call. Do you?

What do you want Cardinalsinflight? What do you need?

Absolutely Maybeso. None of this is easy. 

Staying friends in a less intense way... .  ok, in theory this seems reasonable.

But, let's be real - in the real world, pwBPD are charming as hell when they are "on".  The "on" and idealization is a hook and we all get that feeling of being special.   That feeling of special starts to numb rational thought in us and we then begin to think - it won't happen again.

IMHO - and I can only say this on the undecided board - the ONLY way to be friends is very superficial, nothing intimate or personal - and frankly, what is the point?  That is not my definition of friend. Can I be pleasant if we run into each other in a social setting, sure - but sharing my life... .  nope.   I don't want the underlying feeling of "when is the other shoe going to drop" - it is not a healthy feeling to live life like that and if you don't, then we seriously are deluding ourselves... .  it is untreated BPD for goodness sakes.  Read the facts, we are not some special relationship that is going to make that go away.

Now, if my wife would have not broken a final boundary the last time, my butt would still be on the staying board.  I was married and my core values meant that I would have worked really hard on my side of the street which means radically accepting this and using the tools appropriately.

Almost every person on any of these boards has used the term "soul mate" - is it really reasonable to think we can be casual friends with a soul mate?

Again, if you want to try and be friends - know YOURSELF.  Have clear boundaries, be in therapy to keep yourself in check and do a constant inventory of your expectations... .  this seems like a lot of work for a casual friend.

Now, if you want to be in a romantic relationship - then do it.  There is plenty of support on the staying boards and there are tools to use that do work.

I have pointed to the stops 4 & 5 in this thread because this is really the key - rigorous honesty - otherwise, this is simply a rinse/repeat and a lot of rationalization.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to keep someone around they love - whether for convenience, loneliness, etc - but this is a mental illness that shows itself in intimate relationships - as such, don't you think it is completely predictable that a pwBPD is going to push/pull when any threat of abandonment - REAL or PERCEIVED happens?  We cannot control the perceived abandonment, you know... .  and when we need a break, it feels like real abandonment to them... .  how is a casual friendship realistic?

I know MaybeSo, Maria, P&C, CIF - all of you have tried a version of casual friendship and without fail, each of you ended up in the same tailspin.  I am sorry that each of you have been hurt, truly.  However, until the reality of BPD is embraced and a complete inventory of your needs is assessed - don't you think these casual friendships are kinda gonna have a version of this same ending?

It's ok if it does and if you want to ride the ride - just own it.  You want to ride the ride and don't blame the pwBPD for showing BPD traits when you are hurt.

I may have stepped out of bounds on this post, if you are offended, I sincerely apologize.  I am only 1 person with my opinion.   Each of you are very kind women, from an outsider - watching you all go down a similar path with similar results - I am not sure if you want a real opinion or simply validation that your feelings are hurt - maybe both, I dunno. 

What I do know, after an intimate relationship with a pwBPD - being casual friends without EACH of you having completely separate, happy lives seems a bit like trying to walk a tightrope during a hurricane.

I am owning it. It's actually up to me what the point is. If you don't want to do it with your rc that's up to you. If I don't want to do it that's up to me.

You're making a judgement on something I'm trying to do with my ex. You ask me to own it as if you don't believe my feelings as I state them. I can't do anything about you believing me and I don't need you to. If anything my ex creeps me out. I'm not in love with him. I'm making an effort to stay balanced and, as I said, watch myself for different feelings.

I'm not special. My ex isn't special. We can get together here and there possibly and it might be ok. I'm a very different person to you Seeking Balance. But I'm becoming more and more ok with understanding that we are all very different.

You haven't offended me and I hope what I say doesn't offend you.

This is ALL good, very valuable... .  thank you.

Here's what I know for sure: I am in love with her, she knows it AND participates, her actions, our activities are that of a couple.  We (did) communicate daily, more than a superficial level, I liked that, it fits with what I like in a close r/s.  But I didn't tear my garments or throw myself off a cliff if I didn't hear from her.

At this time last year? I was becoming acquainted with a potential new person in my life, after the first "we are only friends, I don't want a gf" speech.  I didn't hide it and she went nuts!  Soo, after another heavy discussion whereby I stated firmly, " you don't want me, WTH?". She agreed that she had not moved on, I hadn't moved on, we liked where we were, and yes we were more than friends.  

As far as blaming her? I don't blame her, I'm just trying to understand... .  and I do own loving and wanting her, but where I struggle now is the cost too high to me?  I love me too!

I was good with that, her actions showed me she loved me and wanted to keep me around, at least I thought so.  I don't push myself on her.  We don't live together, no way to smother her with the busy lives we have. Just confusing, again.

We did well, up until a few weeks ago (actually since about the first of Feb) there began this decline and disconnect.  I made the mistake of asking about it... .  

That's a bit more history. The facts.

CiF

Nope, I am not offended at all and I agree we are all very different - no worries.   |iiii

Casual friends is a great conversation on staying or undecided boards - however, on leaving board when people are barely hanging on, this advice can give a false hope when they need to be detaching.  

History and facts are good, gives a much better picture of where you both are - which is in a relationship 

At the end of the day, you hit the nail on the head - you don't want to be casual friends, you want a more traditional relationship... .  and when you brought up the pulling away - she pushed even more, right?

Do I understand correctly?

I believe that a non can maintain a friendship with a pwBPD after some sort of denouement.The friendship will be unconventional, just like the committed relationship was.

In these situations, the paramount issue for the non is pain tolerance. If one is in dire distress over the devolution of the relationship--it is best to avoid the infliction of further pain. As was pointed out, if one adopts terms such as "soul mate" and if there was a marriage, then perhaps a devolution in relationship status is simply too painful for the non.

If a non confuses idealization for love and all the concomitant perks that make being with a pwBPD so enticing--then reaches the erroneous conclusion that their somewhat illusory partner is their soul mate; that is a teachable moment. It's certainly arguable whether an untreated pwBPD can ever be anyone's soul mate. It's also arguable whether soul mate's even exist. It's a rather amorphous concept.

Probably one of the most important lessons I learned being with a pwBPD for over 7 years was not just to radically accept them, but to admit to myself at a core level, whether I possessed a bohemian spirit or exhibited a more conventional disposition. Trying to fit an unconventional person into a conventional relationship box is self-sabotaging.

If you take a few of the negative relationship-busting traits that a pwBPD might possess--lying, infidelity and manipulation, it is rarely as heinous compared to when an allegedly sane adult commits those same acts. The non has the power to transcend conventional relationship expectations while still possessing determinate (albeit unconventional) boundaries.  An analogy can be made to the US Sup Cts line of reasoning in their most important cases involving the death penalty and life-without parole for juveniles:



"To start with the first set of cases... .  establish that children are constitutionally different from adults for purposes of sentencing. Because juveniles have diminished culpability and greater prospects for reform, we explained, they are less deserving of the most severe punishments.  Those cases relied on three significant gaps between juveniles and adults. First, children have a "`lack of maturity and an underdeveloped sense of responsibility,'" leading to recklessness, impulsivity, and heedless risk-taking. Second, children "are more vulnerable... .  to negative influences and outside pressures," including from their family and peers; they have limited "contro[l] over their own environment" and lack the ability to extricate themselves from horrific, crime-producing settings. Ibid. And third, a child's character is not as "well formed" as an adult's; his traits are "less fixed" and his actions less likely to be "evidence of irretrievabl[e] deprav[ity]."  

Does any of that sound familiar?

To me it is a little like where you put a personality disorder in terms of learning disability or mental illness. It's actually something else altogether I believe but I don't necessarily believe that cutting them out of my life is the right way for me, if I can find another way. But that's just me and I appreciate I am in a minority! And as I said the jury is out on whether I can.

I didn't think this was on the leaving board? It started in staying and got moved to undecided I thought.

The intimacy is triggering. The intimacy is there. The push/ pull will come and go so you can only decide whether you can stay in and ride that or detach. I don't mean to belittle that decision I'm just trying to help clarify it. She won't help you with this. You can't let her make the rules. You have to set the rules for you and that is in evaluating your boundaries and what you actually want in your life.

SB, in answer to your question, yes! Questioning the distance created more distance.  Until it didn't, lol.  As I've indicated, I'm not initiating, but letting her come to me. And she has reached out, sweetly on a couple of occasions.

Conundrum, (ain't that the truth!)  We had a good, seemingly deep emotional connection, soul mate? Dunno if I believe in that theory.  To my knowledge, there has been no lying or secret relationships.  I realize from reading here that is possible.  I also believe that I had a fairly good grasp on her emotional limitations, ie; child like mentality in some regards.  I made accommodations, and worked at just accepting it as a part of her. We didn't get to really know one another until AFTER the romantic rs ended.  It's even been discussed how rapid we both fell into the initial idealization phase and how that was unsustainable, let's be clear, Ifell for that   

I suppose what I'm feeling is some of the growth I've done, or work having to do on my own issues and so, some of this seems less acceptable in some way.

It does indeed bite to hear this blatant denial, guess if I want to continue I just have to lethat go.

How do I really know she means what she says? I know there isn't an answer to that... .  gaaaa

CiF

Maria, I'm a minority with you, as of now anyway... .  

It's contrary to everything I believe to tell someone you love them, and leave them, it's why I'm here.

CiF

Right.

My ex has been in Therapy for over 8 years.

He still does this push pull. And not just with me. When he dated another woman last year, it was in the 4-6 month period when started w/drawing and feeling contemplative about her, too.   And others, too.

I do agree with Seeking Balance that that this is what untreated BPD LOOKS LIKE.  Oh, and, in my case, this is what treated BPD LOOKS like, too!  This is to be expected.  It has nothing to do with you.

I do not think there's any hope for any r/s unless I am in acceptance that he does this pulling away periodically. And then he comes back. And then he pulls away. And then he comes back.  It's often after a period of hightened closeness that he feel dysregulated and pull away. THAT is the defintion of BPD or an attachment disorder.  

I'm experimenting with what the push pull looks like if I don't follow my same (dysfunctional) steps of becoming panicked and reacting to what he does with my own push/pull, instead, I am experimenting with calmness.

Oh, you feel like you need to date or time away... .  wow, well, I guess you have to do what you have to do.  I support you in doing what you need to do.

 My job is to stay calm and keep doing waht I have to do for me.

 

Funny, he isn't dating.  In the past, I'd have been so hurt during a pull away, that we'd break up and then he would start to date and then later we would get back together... .  bla bla bla... .  

What if instead of going into orbit when he starts to do his typical w/drawal thing,  everyone just stays calm and we just completely eliminate the middle part where everyone freaks out and breaks up?  

Basically, keep calm and carry on.


1) I have not called what I have a casual freindship. I honestly don't have a word for what we are right now.

2) I am not in a tailspin!

3) I am not hurt. I am fine. More than fine. I do feel hurt sometimes, this is part of life.

4) I am not blaming my pwBPD or expecting him to be something other than who he is; and if I do find myself doing this, part of why I'm in contact is to examine and stop those behaviors IN ME, I'm examining and changing me, I am not examining and trying to change HIM.


I feel very much in conscious ownership (as much as a fallable human can be) about my current choice. I FULLY expect that he will do a push-pull.  The form it takes sometimes still surprises me, but I fully expect a push-pull. He will likely continue some form of push-pull forever.  I'm not living in a dream world and I am soo over thinking I or anyone else is so special that he won't be who he is.

If I have a conversation with him (or anyone) that stings... .  may I come here to share and process it?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I'm not sure what I'm trying to do now makes any sense here.  I want to process  what is happening inside of ME, but I notice I spend most of the time explaining and helping others anxiety about what I'm trying to do, and what I'm trying to process and learn gets lost in the explanations.  So I think I need to just stop JADING about what I'm doing and maybe not try to process it on bpdfamily.com.  JADING didn't work well in my relationship with him, and it's not going to work on this board, either!  

SB, you don't have to be sorry for me that I got hurt. Truly.   Humans get hurt sometimes.  I'm okay. I will get my feelings hurt sometimes, I will at times be disapointed in life, with him, with others... .  that's life.  I'm not so special that I won't ever be hurt or disapointed by people.

Personally, I like the work that I have been doing ON ME since seeing more of my ex.  I like being able to feel that pld familiar sting... .  BUT use my wise mind to calm myself and see his stuff as belonging to him, and my stuff as belonging to me.  I find it helpful for me.

I find it difficult but helpful to practice loving detachment; to stay grounded in my own life even though I have this person who may be good at idealizing or is charming when he feels good.  With all I know now, I like being able to stand back and observe what is happening, taking neither the idealization or the looming depression personally.

I like stepping back and letting him have his own feelings, no matter how 'stupid' or off base I think they are... .  I like knowing they are HIS feelings and I don't have to fix them or change them or take them personally or do anything but manage my OWN feelings.

I like that I'm not responding to his crap the way I did for five long years.  I like that I can set it aside and just let it go.   And at times, I bring some crap to the table too. I like seeing what is mine to  own, and beleive me, he is NOT the only one with issues with intimacy, at my worst I can be an insufferable, anxious, codepedent control freak.   I have issues, too.  

Maybe he will take off tomorrow and I won't ever see him again.  I don't know.  He is his own person, I support him doing whatever he needs to do.  Right now, he likes spending some time with me and I'm learning a lot being connected in a different way to him.  We do not have a label for what we are.  We do not have a timeline. I'm just living my life one day at a time.

WE don't fit into a neat box or definition of freindship, or lovers, or couple... .  we are NOT just freinds with benefits, I can say that for sure. I don't fool myself that we are only freinds, it's certainly more than that.  But, SB... .  honesly, I don't have HAVE a name for what we are that fits into a neat category or label. If I say friend, or ex,  it's because I don't know what else to call him... .  I'm not trying to get out of ownership of my choices... .  I just don't know what to call it.  I think that's okay.  Ex feels good because frankly, what we are doing now seems different enough from our past relationship, that I do feel it's an EX relationship.  I have divorced or left the kind of relationship I use to have with him, and we are definately doin something quite different.  There is still push/pull, of course. Dealing with the risidual of a pull-away right now, as a matter of fact.  And I feel fine, better than fine.    

I like that when I wake up in the morning I'm neither on cloud 9 (depending on him) or in the depths of hell (depending on him).  I do NOT depend on him, I depend on myself and he along with many others are part of my life.  I like that I'm fully engaged with my OWN life and he is just a part of it.

I like realizing it's my responsibility to make my own life meaningful and to feel happy within myself. He does not bestow me with the feeling of being worthwhile or special, and therefore can't 'take that away from me' when he is not in a good mood or dysregulated.  He may be a drag to be around while in that space, in which case, I can take my own space.  But he doesn't determine for me my worth, my specialiness, or my happiness as a human being.  In his pain he may poke at those things, because mysery loves company, but he can't take it away from me unless I am operating under the dellusion that those things belong to him and he either gives them to me or not. He does not give me my value, specialness or worth.   They are mine to own or not; that is my job and  my responsibility.

I do not promote or advocate that what I am doing is what anyone else should be doing; I'm not advocating for anyone else, I'm simply doing this for myself.   And I'm simply processing my own stuff.  


I think what needs to be addressed is not that their are charming folks who can make us feel special and the dangers of those people, but our own illusion that we aren't  already special without those charming people. This is ultimately an inside job, not an outside job... .  regardless of NC, LC, or Contact.  

I get that CIF  

I'm not waiting for my BPDex to change or love me. If anything I'm waiting for the day he finds another woman who fits so that he doesn't have so much need of me. He needs to be married- it's what suits him. He's struggling to find someone.

I think we probably could have made a go of it if I didn't have my kids and before I'd got to the point of absolute mistrust. I think he is more self aware than others and I think he'd do the therapy, he has had faith in it before.

But he isn't who I want for a relationship. He certainly isn't my soul mate and never was. I probably believed he was. I did feel deeply, deeply connected to him for a long time, or what felt like a long time.

Maybeso, almost everything you say touches some place in me where I can relate.  Most especially the lack of label to what I call our "unship". I don't need a label, but I am single outwardly, even if I may be committed in my heart.

You're right about not getting all discombobulated with the pulling away, it's what they do. Just gotta go with it I suppose and grow thicker skin? Isn't there always this tiny lil undercurrent screaming to your inner self, "is this the time they leave for good?"

And so, my reason mind would tell me that I need to just not care or someow transcend the chaos to the point of being unable to feel the pain of these push/pull occurances.  Now, help me out here, I'm 52 years old, been getting in touch with, and working on feeling for about ten years... .  How does this help me?   I feel as though I'm on a gerble wheel, like one of those circular BPD arguments that I've learned to step out of... .  

I'm going to distract myself, I've worked it up again (the self) 

CiF

Ha! I'm going to be 50 next year. Maybe we should just get together and dump these bozos!

Seriously, I can't tell you how or if this helps you at all... .  to do what you are doing. Only you can know that.

It has personally helped me for the reasons I listed above in my post; the implication being, for a long five years I wasn't taking very good care of myself, and now I am, I wasn't doing the things I'm doing now,  and I find it useful to do those things while being in contact with him. I have never had nearly as volatile a r/s before with the push/pulls etc., but honestly, I have always not taken good care of myself INSIDE of any intimate relationship and that is what I need to work on. I am perfectly fine on my own, it's IN a relationship that I get lost. That is why this is beneficial for me to work on this.

An argument could be made that I'm not taking good care of myself unless I am not connected with him at all; but, I know me, I know what my issues are/were in relationships.  I know this has been helpful for me, for now.  How long?  Who knows. I know I like having my own place and wouldnt live with him while doing this!


This has always been my biggest fear. My dad left us when I was five. I'm looking at that fear and dealing with it. The fact is, he could also get into a car accident and die tomorrow. There are no guarantees. My dad was married to my mom for 20 years, and he left her and us for another woman. There are no gurantees, no perfect relationships, there is nowhere on this earth where we don't sometimes get left.  People sometimes leave.

If he leaves for good, I will be okay.  

If she leaves for good, so will you.  

I agree with you 100% on this being an inside job  |iiii

I also should not have lumped you all together in this because each of you are in different places - I was simply lumping the disappointed outcomes in unclarified relationshippy/friendshippy whatever these are... .  - I am very aware each of your journeys and core stuff is quite different and in different places - my sincere apologies to each of you.

Also, processing here is fine as well; I did clarify was this supporting BPD friend trend a vent/validation post on staying or action oriented/problem solving... .  I would imagine being in a BPD relationship you need to have a vent place, which is why I asked the question specifically.


Ok - don't kill me for asking this please, pretty please ... .  when you brought it up, did you use DEARMAN and was it a conscious conversation on your part or did it just sorta happen?

I did the chicken sh$& thing and emailed  . Actually, we have this thing where we email our thoughts and discuss in person, it's worked in the past. Only happened a couple times.

Not just venting either, I'm doing well and coming back from some really big stuff this past year, so maybe I'm having growing pains? In every area of my life, I'm happy right now.  She tells me she likes being with me because I calm her, my upbeat, sunny disposition

(ok, I had to lmao writing that cuz I seem anything BUT right here in this place)

Anyway, in using an "I" statement,  simply said I felt very far away from her and disconnected and could we fix it.

In my mind, it was short, sweet, and to the point. Is that accusatory? I didn't mean for it to be.

CiF

Well, if the email thing works for you both that is cool, sometimes it is easier - but in this case it sounds like you think it triggered her, and her distancing herself triggers you and has you questioning - do I understand this correctly?

What, exactly was happening that was making you feel far away anyways?

Not doing our usual, normal activities, just asking me to do things for her, dumping all the crap from an overwhelming job, which I do understand and am happy to listen and support.  But never asking about me, or listening to me, just disrespecting me, and taking me for granted.  I make suggestions for plans and they get shot down, yanno? Became really one sided and frankly she seems miserable all the time.  We've been here before, this time seems darker.

I have to be able to have a voice or else this is futile and why bother?  When a friend tells me I seem off? We talk about it and get to the bottom of what seems weird or off.

yep, I know this game - yep, it sucks.

How do you feel when this happens?


Darker is not good or fun... .  do you think it is possible she knows she is darker, thus pushing you away since she has no reserves for her needs... .  your needs may be making her feel guilty?


Well, a nonBPD friend, you are right - but this is BPD.

You are right though - you get to have a voice, this is very important.  Your needs are not being met and she may not be able to meet them, she kinda told you that by saying maybe you should get a girlfriend.  Granted, her approach leaves a lot of room for improvement, but it is possible she meant she knew she was failing you and in this dark time she cannot do much better.

DEARMAN is a technique where you get to have a voice, yet say it in a way that may be heard.  Also, when I use this technique I find that I can help clarify what my real needs are and I can critically ask myself if the BPD can do this now or if someone else could meet that need for me.

Do you have it in you to try using DEARMAN for the same problem so you can perhaps see the differences?

Here is a cheat sheet on it.

DESCRIBE

Describe the situation when necessary - sometimes it isn't stick to the facts and no judgmental statements

"I've been working here for 2 years now and haven't received a raise, even though my performance reviews have always been positive"

"This is the third time this week that you've asked me for a ride home."


EXPRESS

Express feelings/opinions about the situation clearly.

describe how you feel or what you believe about the situation.

don't expect the other person to read your mind or know how you feel give a brief reason for making your request.

"I believe that I deserve a raise."

"I'm getting home so late that it is really hard for me and my family. But I also really enjoy giving you rides home, and it is hard for me to say no."


ASSERT

Assert your wishes.

Ask for what you want.

Say no clearly.

Don't expect the other person to know what you want them to do if you don't tell them (don't expect them to mind read).

Don't tell others what they "should" do.

Don't beat around the bush... .  Just bite the bullet and ask, or say no

"I would like a raise. Can you give it to me?

"But I have to say no tonight. I can't give you a ride home so often."


REINFORCE

Reward people who respond positively to you when you ask for something, say no or express an opinion.

Sometimes it helps to reinforce people before they respond to your question by telling them the positive effects of getting what you want or need.

The basic idea here is that if people do not gain form complying with a request, at least some of the time, they may stop responding in a positive way

"I will be a lot happier and probably more productive if I get a salary that reflects my value to the company."

"Thanks for being so understanding. I really appreciate it."


STAY MINDFUL

Keep your focus on your objectives in the situation

Maintain your position

Don't be distracted on to another topic

Two helpful techniques for staying mindful:

1. Broken Record

Keep asking, saying no or expressing your opinion... .  over and over and over

You just don't have to think up something new each time, just keep saying the exact same thing. Keep a mellow tone of voice... .  your strength comes from maintaining your position

2. Ignore

If the other person attacks, threatens or tries to change the subject, ... .  IGNORE, the

threats comments or efforts to divert you. Just keep making your point. If you respond to these attacks, you have allowed the other person to take control of the situation

If you want to deal with the attacks... .  deal with them in another discussion.


APPEAR CONFIDENT

Confident tone of voice

Confident physical manner

Appropriate eye contact

No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, etc... .  

How confident to act in a situation is a judgment call. There is a fine line between appearing arrogant, and appearing too apologetic.


NEGOTIATE

Be willing to give to get

Offer and ask for alternate solutions

Reduce your request

Maintain your no, but offer to do something else or solve the problem another way

A helpful skill here is "turning the tables." Turn the problem over to the other person, ask for alternative solutions.

"What do you think we can do." "I am not able to say yes, but you really seem to want me to. What can we do here?"

"How can we solve this problem?"

If i ever get another chance i could try?  I honestly cannot imagine being able to get these thoughts out uninterrupted or without the smack talk, but I try.  There's usually manipulation involved because I do communicate pretty well in normal circumstances, she flusters me. It can be about me initially, then it's allllll about her.

Thank you SB.

I meant try now - here - practice so when you are in those moments you can use them.  SWOE suggests this... .  it is kinda like practicing 100's of free throws in basketball practice so when the shot comes in game

CiF -- it seems to me that clarity about the question will help in finding the answer.

Do you feel "I want more, not less," and are you therefore looking for strategies to encourage/coax/relax her into being more engaged, proactive, open to intimacy?

Do you feel "recognizing she has uBPD, I am willing to let her come and go at her own pace and in her own rhythm, but there is a threshold of overall intimacy and closeness and frequency below which this doesn't work for me, and I am trying to determine what that is?"

Something else?

I think that I am done.  The pain is greater to me being with her on the fringe, than without.  I'm tired of  being the one kicked to the curb when her life gets rough, that's not how I engage with those i love, or want a rs of any kind, labeled or unlabeled to be.

This isnt about me, I get that.  But she said the words, and I can take them and use them how I see best works for me, today, in MY life.  I matter, I have a heart and it needs to close over the space she occupies and always will.  I'm being told no, I can't have more, and so I need to listen... .  now.

Thank you all, from the bottom of my heart for taking your time, putting up with my emotions and for caring enough to write to me these past few days.

CiF

This is really hard, this letting go stuff! I've done ok, and with the exception of one SOS from the pwBPD, there has been no attempt to re-engage.

I'm not suprised, but of course we all hope a little bit deep down that we are missed and wanted.

I've had some super introspection type times over the past several days and it feels really good.  I miss my pwBPD, a whole whole lot.  But every time I think of the super good times, I try and temper them by remembering how alone I feel when I'm with her, the disrespect, the taking for granted and it helps me right myself.

I'm not miserable, but I am missing her.  And I also see just how un important I really was. 

Hang in there all you peeps trying to get over the first miserable, panic stricken days of making the decision to let your relationships with your pwBPD go, it's really a move in the right direction.

CiF