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Okay, I'm not sure this is something anyone can really help with, but I'm driving myself crazy right atm and so I figured this was the place to come to vent and maybe clear my head again. Thanks in advance!

Every time I think things are getting better I find more crap in the rabbit hole. (How's that for mixing metaphors?) I was just getting myself more pulled together, trying to move forward, work on my stuff to improve my r/s, and then... .  BLAM! Another crappy surprise.

So I hadn't heard anything about H's girlfriend in the past week or two. (We have an open r/s - just for anyone new to my story.)  Should have known something was wrong. Today I snooped a FB convo they had at the beginning of this month (hey, he left his browser open and didn't delete it. And, yes, I know I'm an idiot.) Anyway, it seems she's booked a plane ticket home, arrives next week, and is very excited that he's getting his own apartment for them to enjoy. (I already knew he was moving out next week.) They went back and forth about how in love they are and he said he's absolutely sure that he's doing the right thing by leaving me for her. :'( That he's been pulling away from me over the past 2 years and that the past 6 months have been horrible between us. (Incidentally, this is the timeline of him meeting her and then the 6 months was him deciding he was in love - coincidence? Only in his stunted little brain!)

So this explains why his mood suddenly improved over the past two weeks. He knew she was coming back. (Or not, I suppose it could be the new meds. Or any other random thing. Doesn't really matter anyway.) I'm also trying to keep things in perspective because I know that he lies to the GF about things too. So the conversation can't exactly be taken at face value, but it's all I have so that's pretty much where I'm at. I'm not going to start any guessing games.

So now I'm trying to figure out how to deal with the new info I have. Do I mention it? Ask some leading questions? Just be really blunt? I really do need to know whether he is involved with the GF 'in person' as this may affect my decisions regarding finances, sexual health, etc.

Logically I realize there is nothing I can do. I also realize that he isn't going to be able to maintain a r/s with the GF (I'd be shocked if she wasn't diagnosed as BPD too). So I'm not sure what's happening now but I see the cycles (and recycles) looming on the horizon.

Haven't gotten to the 'just file for divorce' stage yet. I'm looking for suggestions, while I sit in limbo for a little while, as I try to give myself time to sort through my feelings and see how things play out.

  That bites.

I've got one suggestion:

Decide how you are going to 'fess up about snooping in his FB... .  and reading all that crap.

Lies and deception suck. Really suck. Whether you are liar or lie-ee.

If you "know" something that you aren't supposed to know... .  and it is important, you need to talk about it. And trying to "trap" him into fessing 'up is yucky and invalidating.

I guess there is a conversation you really need to have. Hmm... .  which communication tools would work well for that. (I'll think about it later... .  maybe someone else will beat me to it)

   I've got nothing.  You're a much more patient person than I am.  If there's one thing I'm black and white about it's whether a relationship IS or ISN'T.  I'm not willing to compromise on that.  I'd be helping him pack his bags and waving good bye.

Yup. Needed to talk about it. So here's how it went:

I asked how GF was doing. He said he wasn't sure, she hasn't been emailing much lately. I told him that I was on FB, was snooping her page and came across a message that she'd booked a plane ticket. (He didn't ask for specifics and I didn't divulge any. Partially I'm a coward and partially I didn't want to get sidetracked before I had an answer.) He wanted to know when the info was from because apparently she booked a ticket and has now changed her flight date twice. So she's not coming back until "at least June but who knows". I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, but it would be a stupid lie because it'll be pretty obvious when/if she shows up here. I didn't even bother with asking why he didn't tell me she booked a ticket in the first place.

So that's part of it. Now is there any point in discussing his feelings? Because I already know that he's so out of tune with his own head that any random thing could come sputtering out depending on his current mood. It's totally pointless, isn't it? I'm also rather of the opinion that his feelings for her are his 'stuff' and I only need to worry about his feelings for me. I really don't need to get into his convo with her to ask about us.

I'm still in a fuddle. I just wanted to post an update for those following along. Thanks GK and Rockylove for the input so far! Rockylove, even though you say you've "got nothing" I still appreciated your post - you're right, the core issue of 'are we or aren't we' really should be the focus. I am actually beginning to lose my patience more quickly than I would like... .  I think you're one of the most patient posters on this forum!

Arabella, just wanted to say   and   .

Yuck.

I want to chime in to agree with you 100% that asking him what is going on with his feelings is rather pointless.  What he says won't be true the next day, may not be fully true then, and he probably isn't clear on what he feels or why he feels it.

I think it might be useful to reflect back on what Connect went through a few weeks back when her bf went on holiday with a former sex partner.  You aren't in the same situation, I realize, because what your H is doing does not violate your boundaries, and what her bf did, did violate hers.  Why I think it's a useful parallel is just because he was so excited to do it, it was such a priority for him he had to put her through an absolute ringer to make clear he was going to do it come hell or high water.  Then, he went.  Then, a few days into the holiday, it all fell apart and he was suddenly all over Connect hoping he hadn't screwed that up too badly.

I suspect your H is entering the high point of idealization with his gf.  And once he moves out, and she arrives, and they're actually doing this longed-for thing ... .  it won't be all that, and suddenly, things will look very different to him.

I personally couldn't play this out because I've chosen not to participate in open relationships, but you've got your life arranged so that the terms of this may not run roughshod over your boundaries.  If so, I suspect if you just get a few pedicures and read a few good books and really spend a few months digging into some stuff you're really interested in, he'll be awfully into you.

I know you know this -- when you say you can see the cycles and recycles already -- but thought it might still be good to hear from someone else how obvious it is that he is peaking here with the gf, and this is going to burn out shortly.

xxoo

I am sitting here in disbelief and open-mouthed reading your post. I am so very sorry for the pain you're enduring. The caring, selflessness in me wants to wrap my big arms around you and give you the giant comforting hug that might help. The codependent in me is screaming at the top of my lungs (internally). It's amazing how clear things to can be to those outside of our situation eh.

I've read many of your posts. You are a smart and insightful gal. You have a keen mind and great ability to bring clarity to confusion - for others such as myself. I thought what you said was very telling. "Logically I realize there is nothing I can do." Then you said, "I'll see how things play out."

I've read once that the truth will set you free. Is it possible that this dilemma has nothing to do with anyone (not the H, not his lover(s), no one) except you?

|iiii


Perhaps that's not such a bad thing, arabella!  I find that's the time when I gain the most personal growth.  If my situation is causing me that much stress that I'm losing my patience, it's time for some changes.  It could be a firmer boundary, a change in the way I perceive a situation or whatever it takes to shift the dynamics of the situation.  Just because we know that our SO is mentally ill, does not mean that we need to live outside of our moral constitution or go against our core code of ethics to keep them in our lives.  

That really does suck.  I'm sorry you're going through this.   


Although I'm sure I'm just stating the obvious, this usually means something.  Maybe he's stepping over a boundary that you have or now realize that you want to have, maybe one that is currently unspoken.  And maybe you could use some time and focus on you.

Hi Arabella

As you know I'm not really a stayer and I may not have much to offer you except  . I do understand how difficult it feels trying to make sense of things down the rabbit hole so I'm going to offer some perspective from a place I have chosen away from Wonderland.

You seem very strong and clear about what your boundaries are. I do wonder if you need to spend a little time re-thinking them because from what you say my immediate reaction is that your boundaries seem to be suiting him more than you right now? I mean do you get comfort from another sexual/ emotional relationship while he does? That's not a question you need to answer on here it's just something to think about, or not. You may be absolutely clear.

My thoughts are that if you are clear about them then this might not get to you quite as much as it does. But then I couldn't do an open relationship so I may just not have the right headset for it. If it's an open relationship what is it that he is breaking boundary wise? Is it that he hasn't been honest?

You deserve to be happy and treated with respect. You are a good and caring person. That much I do know.

I am running late - have to get in the shower immediately. I can't reply now, but will later. You and I are living a very similar (but different) situation.  I could scream reading your post because I am in the same exact boat.  I was actually going to post and ask, "How do I act normal when he and I spend time together this weekend when I am so pissed off at him?" and I know that the only reason we are seeing each other this weekend is because his ex is out of town!

Not being self-absorbed, I will definitely reply to your situation when I get back. And I too can't help myself with Facebook and crap like that. (I swear I'm going to end up with cancer from this )

Hello Arabella,

So sorry that you are in the midst of this - it really sucks.

Patientandclear made a good point about comparing your and my situation feelings wise - I imagine you feel like I did with the holiday looming like a shadow you cant get away from.

I agree (and from my experience it was true) that when he gets his apartment and gf he wont like it. It will be wrong. His guilt will f him up and come out in rows with her. He will sabotage things with her.

 

I'm back. I don't know how to be supportive because I didn't know you were in an "open" relationship. I promise I'm asking with sincerity and curiosity, not judgement, but when you're in an open relationship, doesn't that mean that he's going to be with someone else? Are there rules? Are there limits on both relationships, like he can see her but not sexually or is his relationship with you more emotional and less physical? I don't know your story but I do know that being lied to is horribly painful and being misled and finding out that you were misled is enough to kick the air out of your lungs. It takes you to a place of Hell that is hard to describe.  When you trust and you believe or you derive some optimism from what you think is the reality of a situation, then it comes crashing down, it's simply like being stabbed in the heart.  I feel for you when you describe uncovering something you thought was the opposite. It's horrible.  I'm thinking of you.

I do need to hear this. I mean, I know this, but it's hard to make it sink in while I'm living it. I instinctively believe people when they write how they feel. I read the conversation and my gut leaps to the conclusion that those things mean something. But I know that's not how it works with him. I need my brain to catch up to the program here!

This is also not the first time this has happened. 10 years ago he left me for another woman. He wasn't so into that one, but it was the exact same pattern, same type of dysregulation and he told me the same things then that he is now. So I know how it goes. I also know this can't keep happening. I'm going to need a follow-up plan if/when he wants to recycle with me.




I think you guys are probably right. A lot of my reaction is likely an internal mechanism that's out of whack. I'm not sure my head and my heart always see eye-to-eye (I'm pretty sure they don't). My head knows the stuff I read is just words on a page, but my heart is devastated by the idea that he sounds so sure about getting rid of me. He said that I just know what to say to "manipulate him" (because, you know, the truth is so very manipulative - he just doesn't like it when those pesky 'facts' get in the way of his disordered thinking). So, what I know to be true, and what he says is true, are two different things. I need to radically accept that. As for boundaries... .  


Yes, excellent points you make, maria1, as usual! (Sorry to edit your post, I took all of it in, just snipping it for ease of digestion here.) I think in an open r/s it's quite often the case that the arrangement will suit one person more than the other at various points in time. I have casually dated other men but, for the most part, I find it's too much work and I'd rather spend more time with my friends or on my own. Not sure if this will make sense, but I actually get more out of the idea that I have the option to date rather than actually doing it. It's possible I have commitment issues.

I've been trying to analyse my boundaries lately. Honesty regarding major issues is very important to me. The lying and deception are very not okay here. And, okay, I haven't given enough info re this r/s with his gf. The history there is problematic. It's not the r/s itself, it's the trampled boundaries that are wound up in it. He told me they only had a casual sexual r/s before, then when she left the country he told me they broke up. I had asked him to end it b/c their r/s was causing problems with he and I and with her on/off fiance (they also had an open r/s but she started lying to her bf about her r/s with my H and... .   ). He and I are having r/s problems but I can't figure out what's changed or really what the problem is. So... .  fast forward to this February... .  I find out they never broke up, have been doing the LD thing, his 3 week vacation in January was to go see her, he's in love with her and wants to leave me. :'( I also realize he's in a major depression, suicidal, dissociating, and self-injuring again. So I stick around even though, clearly, I am PISSED and sobbing uncontrollably almost all the time.

Needless to say, this particular gf is a major sore spot for me. Also bear in mind that she's met me on more than one occasion, so I'm not just some vague notion in her head and she knew the score when she got involved. She also helped H lie to me about what was going on (at the very least she knows he is/was lying and goes along with it). So I really rather dislike this particular woman.

So here I am. Boundaries all trampled. He's just now (within the past 10 days) started to come back to reality, sleep (had insomnia), and is seemingly 'stable'. *knock on wood* Now what?


Yup. I know that feeling. Like the times my H has stopped in the middle of a conversation with me because he got a text from gf on his phone? Makes me feel stabby... .  I am, thankfully, getting past a lot of it. And I set a boundary - I will not sit around and be ignored because someone else texted you (I don't care who it is - it's just rude). He pulls this kind of stunt now and I just walk away and do something else. I think you should actually start a thread, Siamese Rescue, because this is actually an interesting topic unto its own and I wouldn't mind exploring it more!


Oh, he rows with her regardless. They don't particularly get along (probably because she's also meets the criteria for BPD - karmic justice?) They both feel guilty, and they both blame each other for everything, and they both think the other has major issues/problems. Hahahaha! Rabbit poop! He doesn't even need to sabotage it because they aren't compatible to being with!  Of course, this could drag on forever because neither of them will be willing to admit they made a mistake.

Maybe once he's out of the house this will seem clearer to me? Unfortunately, I fear that the space might just make me miss him and it will actually be LESS clear (if that's even possible).

I cross-posted with you SR! Thanks for coming back to post again!

You're right, there are some aspects of the open r/s that are just par for the course. There are indeed 'rules' though. Or maybe I shouldn't call them rules so much as boundaries? For example, the rule would be something like "you must use physical protection if you have sex with someone else"; the boundary is "I will not continue a r/s with someone who does not practice safe sex". The lying is a HUGE issue. I mean, lying to me about whether he's sleeping with someone else? eg. his vacation in January, I didn't find out until weeks later that he'd been with the gf. That is so beyond NOT OKAY that it isn't even funny. It is slightly buffered by the fact that I know the woman, it's not actually a new partner, and H is pretty paranoid when it comes to safe sex. HOWEVER, this is still not okay. And, as you said, having your reality shattered is, well, a special level of hell.

I think part of my problem is that the boundary busting and me finding out about it are so disconnected that I feel it's hard to enforce effectively. H stole my thunder a bit too by being suicidal (really) right at the time I put everything together. This latest drama with the FB convo is only adding to the mess, not starting it... .  Do I just keep this stuff in my own mind for when he eventually tries for a recycle? I'm thinking maybe I need to just keep notes and then when he wants to 'fix' things use them to remind us both as to why he has to get into therapy. Does that make sense or am I wimping out on doing more?

Is it possible that there could be a benefit to you and your ability to have clear insight, to leave this situation entirely (even if only for a few months)? I dunno. Just asking.

Arabella  

His comment (to the GF) about how you know how to say the right things to manipulate him, really hit home with me.

As you say, here, "manipulate" means "bend over backwards to care for him in a non-intrusive non-possessive way, to let him be him, & still adhere to some notion of emotional health for both of you by hewing to the truth."

I realized we were in new & truly BPD territory when, for the first time he'd shared with me (maybe he'd felt it before), my ex responded to my big effort to understand and care about something important to him, by saying he felt I had a "hidden agenda."  It's as though you can fail in one of two ways: be overtly unloving or rejecting, which they expect; but if you don't fail in that way, and are actually listening to them and making room for them to be them, then you must be up to something, faking them out, sneaking something past them. Because no one would really ever care & love them like that.

No surprise that it hurts a lot to read that your best efforts & sincere commitment is received as "manipulative."  He won't maintain that position indefinitely, as we've been discussing here; but meanwhile, I can really see why cycling through this again after that other time 10 years ago makes you ask whether you are on board for another go-round.

This stuff is unanswerably unfair.

You mean go NC for a few months? I think in order to go NC I'd have to have made a decision in my own mind. My lack of clarity is sort of keeping me from that level of decision-making. I was/am considering LC, but I've now got this curve-ball where he's got a new (i.e. his regula) personality lately. I'm really... .  confused. I've got at least 4 months now where I won't be living with him, so there's that aspect. I'm also cognizant of the fact that the gf is still going to show up at some point and I don't know what I need to do to prepare myself for that. I would like my r/s with my H to be on more stable footing before I have to deal with the gf... .  Not sure if going LC or NC is going to help with that.


:light: This makes so much sense now! I was trying to figure out how his mind was twisting it around and your explanation just clicked the pieces into place for me. But UGH - it is SO unfair! No wonder I feel like I can't win.

So I answered jedicloak's comments by essentially saying I'm trying to do things to make this work. But then you remind me that I was trying to decide if I'm really up for doing this again. I do need to sort this out, don't I? Okay, so I want it to work or, if it can't, I want it to be my decision - not some default that happened because I behaved like an idiot or something I just sort of slid into. I think what I want is to fix my marriage by each of us fixing ourselves. I don't think we actually have many issues as between us so much as we each have our own 'stuff' that requires attention.

I heard in an Alanon meeting recently that control over other people (their behaviors, intentions, etc.) / places / things is an illusion. The only thing (we have a chance of controlling) is ourselves.

That quote really resonated with me.

Yup, I agree! I can't control anyone but me. I'm doing a lot of work to help myself. I'm learning a lot that I really wish I'd known sooner. Still, better late than never. As for him, I can't control him, but I can set boundaries and let him know what he needs to do in order to make things work with me. E.g. He needs to actually address his issues and participate in appropriate therapy. It's up to him whether he agrees or not, I have no control over it, but I can totally control whether I participate in this r/s or not.

Hi Arabella,

I wanted to chime in about something patientandclear said about manipulation. I have also been accused of manipulation regularly, apparently its one of my biggest faults   ! Its a load of bs. HE is the manipulator, as is yours.

Also when I am loving and kind and listening and explain how I have turned my life upside down to be with him he also asks what my hidden agenda is. He asks why did I do such a thing for him. I was pleased to see I am not alone, that this is not just me that gets these comments. It makes you feel like they don't really know you.

The sobbing all day is a normal reaction to what is happening - its best to get all that out.

We all know the long term outcome of this. He will be back. It will not work for him. The awful thing is the unfairness of it and how you get through the short term. You are clever and smart and funny and insightful - you have a lot of strength, its just so unfair that they have to have distance and THEN they get this. With me I found that I could only deal with my short term immediate feelings as I knew that my feelings would change so much that I couldn't make decisions on the long term until I got through that stage. Be patient with yourself, you are still in shock.  

*ahem* Projection! *cough cough*


This is costing me a fortune in disposable contact lenses. I finally gave up yesterday and switched into my glasses. Then I was pissed off that he was responsible (well, you know) for me having to wear glasses when I wanted to have my contacts in. Jerk.


Did I mention my patience is running a wee bit thin atm? *sigh* But you're right. I am having trouble seeing past my immediate turmoil. I know this isn't a healthy way to live, I'm just trying to stumble along until I can get my feet back under me properly. In the meantime I'm tripping over myself and ranting at the lovely people here who are apparently infinitely patient with my bumbling (thank the heavens for that)!

But that long term planning thing? It has to happen. I can't just live in the moment indefinitely. I can't just keep reacting - I need to be a little more steady. This turmoil is wrecking my brain.  

Long term planning... .  there's an idea. When is he moving out?

I'm also curious how he sees this moving out. Well, scratch that, I don't want to look inside his head!   I mean, what does he say about moving out?

Specifically has he said anything about how it impacts your marriage? Options like

"Just need space"

"Trial separation"

"Moving in with GF" (OK, he didn't want to say that one, I know)

Or another choice?

And what about time spent together with you then? Has he discussed expectations there?

More importantly... .  what do you want during this time?

BTW, as far as Projection goes... .  after a while I decided that whenever I was accused of something I wasn't doing... .  it was a cue that I should look and see if my wife was doing exactly that. And often she was.

Brief side note from your thread... .    Sorry, Arabella.


Just in the last 2-3 months I started to notice the same thing.  At times it can offer remarkable insights into what may be going on in my wife's mind.

He's moving out in 4 days. What does he say about moving out? Well, before he said "I don't know" (angrily) to pretty much every question. He also said it was too late for therapy and our window to do that was closed now. Then later he said he'd consider going to see a T with me. And I haven't spoken about it with him since he started to stabilize because I'm a wimp.

So I started to ask about how he saw our separation today... .  But it kind of flowed out of another conversation that he didn't agree with me on (i.e. him lying, mostly by omission, to a friend of his about me). I want transparency, he sees no reason for it - something about keeping parts of his life in separate spheres. I told him we didn't need to all hang out but I don't like the secrecy aspect and that it bothers me. I didn't push it but it put him in a cranky mood. I mentioned he'd told his friend we broke up. He said he told this friend he was moving out but not that we broke up (uh-huh, right) so I asked how he saw this separation - whether it was a 'therapeutic separation' or something else. He told me I could think of it however I liked. I asked if he thought we'd see each other. "Probably." And that if it was supposed to be a therapeutic separation kind of thing then that would require his participation. "Well, what do you need me to do anyway?" (irritated) Not really helpful. Then I got "Can we talk about this some other time?" He was really rather annoyed at this point and I just said "sure" and let it go. He went out for the evening anyway, mumbling something about being home "sometime, eventually, whatever" (still annoyed and practically flying out the door). Now I feel crappy again. *sigh* So I texted (I know, I know... .  just STOP, right?)... .  So I texted him to say "Sorry if I pissed you off earlier" Got back "No worries" Sent "Meh. I worry. Don't want to wreck our evenings" No response to that but I know he's out with the friend so he'll be ignoring his phone now.

What I want is my old, reliable, kind H back.  Aside from that... .  Well, I still want to work it all out. I want to see him. I want to not be left in the dark about everything. I want to move forward. I want to wake up from the nightmare. Or... .  what were you asking?

By definition, doesn't 'projection' have to be something that they are experiencing/doing themselves?

I think I got excited that H was seeming so much more stable recently. I was so hopeful. But I was talking to myself, out loud even, telling myself not to get too excited, not to get my hopes up... .  but I did anyway. I so wanted to be able to have a conversation like the ones we used to have. I wanted to be able to ask questions and get answers. I'm just so disappointed. So sad. I know this was only a little setback, but now I find myself wondering... .  Maybe he is better now and maybe he really does truly think things are hopeless. Maybe he's right? Maybe it isn't the BPD and I'm just being delusional and stupidly optimistic? I don't know what's real and what's not anymore. I'm comforted by the knowledge that he'll be back tonight so I can check in with him. But, at the same time, I know that in a few days he won't be coming back, there will be no more checking in. This doesn't feel right at all. :'(

Sending you hugs tonight x   

All I will say is that your H is moving out, and he is obviously planning to have women other than you visit.  If anything else, your H might serve those papers first.  Though based on his behavior, he may be doing you a solid.

Well, since it's an open r/s the other women in general aren't really a particular concern of mine. For reasons stated, the current 'serious' gf is another story... .  but, again, not exactly a lot for me to do there. I know you weren't necessarily meaning to be taken literally (or maybe you were), but I doubt he'd serve me. He might call me and tell me to serve him. No, seriously, he would do that. He'd make me do the actual work.  

And, yes, sometimes I wonder if I'm even doing the right thing by staying. But then he gets better and I get my hopes up and... .  Well, we have had over a solid decade without this sort of thing happening... .  And... .  and and and. *sigh*

Personally, I'm of the opinion that having an open relationship is a bad, bad idea with a pwBPD involved.  For one, in order for such a set-up to work, one has to be secure in where they stand in the relationship.  Someone with BPD probably lacks that, to say the least.  It's the whole instability of identity thing.  Plus, with BPD, allowing them to play around is like pouring gasoline on a fire.  Instead of a means to explore their sexuality with others, it becomes a coping mechanism.

To pivot back to the specific scenario you posited, I would take the serious GF, well, seriously.  Most open relationships do have limits, and being this close to setting up housekeeping with another person without the other person in the relationship being involved is a huge one.  I agree with you in that how he's going about it is manipulative.  That said, this is bpdfamily.com, not Facing the Nice Myth In Your Head.

Wow. I haven't thought about this situation in this way... .  I have to agree with everything Illuminati just wrote above. Well said.

I can certainly see the validity in not having an open r/s with someone suffering from BPD. That said, I do believe it really depends on the individual and how well they can manage the disorder. The open r/s has been working for us for the past 10 years, so I don't think that is inherently the problem (at least not until now). I may reconsider the whole thing based on recent events, but I don't think now (soon perhaps, but not this week) is the time have a discussion to try to change that dynamic. Of course, coping mechanisms are necessary too... .  It's only a problem if it prevents a person from achieving some other growth (imho).

I do indeed take the GF seriously. I wouldn't be in such an emotional state if I didn't. If I thought this was all okay I wouldn't be so upset. Now I need to decided what to actually DO about it all. He knows I'm not okay with it. He also knows I won't be dragged into the quagmire. Last time he pulled a similar stunt I ended our romantic engagement - he got me as a platonic friend when I felt that I had time/energy for him.

Arabella, was this during that six month episode 10 years ago, when he came back later & said almost like he had been dissociating that he didn't know what he'd been thinking?  How did you make the transition from friendship back to a romantic relationship, and what were the terms/boundaries/requirements you had for doing that, if any?  Was he to engage in therapy about these issues (and did he?)

Yes, exactly, that was the time. He hadn't been diagnosed with BPD yet (that was years later) and I'd never even heard of BPD at that point. I had no idea I was dealing with a white rabbit!

We'd been seeing each other more frequently as he stabilized so it wasn't a huge stretch to turn our platonic dates into romantic ones (we had previously been engaged to be married too). Boundaries included: no get togethers with the now ex-gf, no dating around while we were reestablishing things (too distracting), I wouldn't move in with him right away (we'd lived together for the 2.5 years prior to the break-up), he couldn't blame me for his leaving (he really didn't anyway), and he had to show me I could trust him again (i.e. no lies or deceptions - he gave me access to all of his online accounts too, email, etc.)

We didn't go for therapy because there really was nothing wrong as between us. I know that sounds really odd, but we didn't fight, didn't disagree over any major issues, etc. Plus, he seemed to take responsibility for what had happened, he was all "This was my fault, I don't know what I was thinking, it was such a mistake, I can't believe I did that to you/us, it will never happen again, etc." Of course, I was paranoid it could happen again, but he assured me that now that he'd experienced it he'd never repeat the same mistake. He knew what he almost lost, etc. I said if he didn't know what caused it how could he know it wouldn't happen again. He insisted and I sort of gave up - I mean, I figured if he couldn't even remember half of it, what was the point in trying to discuss it? Obviously, in retrospect, I made a huge mistake there. I shall not repeat it.

I posted a new thread with an... .  interesting... .  update to my situation. It is seeming soo similar to that time 10 years ago. But yet it's not quite. But it is... .  

Thought about starting a new thread, then decided just to return to this one, figured maybe my update would make more sense if I tagged it on here.

So H moved out today. I thought I was prepared. Thought I was going to be okay. We had our first T appointment together today. We even have plans to see each other tomorrow. We have a race we're running together this weekend. The GF is committed to staying where she is and isn't coming back to this continent before mid-July (at the earliest).

I'm a mess. And I feel like an idiot for being a mess. I knew this was coming. I mentally walked myself through it a zillion times. I talked to other people about it. I talked about it here. I'm still crying over here. I cried when H was leaving and that stressed him out and he got angry. I wanted to at least look strong when he left. I wanted to be as cool and collected as he was. I wanted him to think I would be fine and dandy without him! No dice. I just cried and cried. I'm so disappointed in myself. Why isn't this getting easier? :'(

You're disappointed in yourself for crying and feeling terrible when your husband who you love leaves you?

Oh Arabella I just want you to give yourself a break. You express your real emotions and your husband gets angry. I'd forgotten that my pwBPD did this to me too when he ended our r/s but wanted to stay friends. He said something like 'are you going to keep making me feel bad?' He kept on saying it and in the end I said if he wanted to see me he couldn't stop me being upset. He couldn't control me expressing my emotions. And he stopped having a go at me about it. I had no idea about boundaries then or what I was doing but I was laying one down and it was very clear. I could not control my emotions and was not prepared to try because I was dealing with the emotional fall out of his actions, not mine.

You have nothing to feel bad about. Please, please, please don't feel disappointed in yourself for being upset in front of him. Why should you hide your emotions? Why do his have to trump yours? Him having a disorder doesn't mean you have to stop being who you are. It mustn't, (surely?) mean that Arabella.

  

Oh Arabella ... .  nothing at all wrong with that. Some of the hardest, best advice folks gaveme on this board was to be myself. Be true to myself. The reaction of our pwBPD to that may then have to be adjusted to & dealt with, but we can't cease being real peolple just because they may not love it & may react poorly.

I showed my pwBPD my dismay about his impulse choice to move away. Despite all kinds of pledges that he wouldn't disappear on me, he disappeared after I communicated that, as warmly & gently as I could. Obviously it didn't work for him that I conveyed my feelings about what he was doing. I haven't heard from him since (that was 7 weeks ago).  I paid what feels like a big price for showing what I feel about the loss that this r/s involves. But ... .  pretending we're not affected is impossible and false. It is what it is.

That sounds like a really hard moment.  I hope it feels better, and mostly hope you give yourself space to be sad and don't feel the need to fake an indifference you don't feel.

Thanks guys. It means a lot to have your support here. I've cried myself into a doozy of a headache.

I'm not upset that he got upset (which is a good improvement for me, I think). I wanted to be all calm and detached (well, appear that way anyway) for me. If he's pissed off about my crying, well, he was leaving anyway so at least I don't have to deal with it. Not ideal, but whatever.

I wanted to be all aloof, not to make him feel better, but to sort of preserve my own dignity - to show him I don't need him. I hate that he gets to look all independent and pulled together and I'm a needy mess. I'm throwing my own little tantrum here that I didn't get to show him that I could be okay without him. I wanted to be strong, you know? Even if it's not the whole truth - I wanted to show off my work, my tough self, instead of my heartbreak. At least I didn't ask him to stay.

It's easier to look objectively at the situations of others than to live in your own Hell.  I can visualize you crying and him leaving. I wouldn't beat yourself up about crying. Screw it. You know, there's only so much posturing we can do when we're dealing with these people.  I just had to restrain myself from calling them a rude name, trying to keep in mind they have a "mental illness" but it's just obnoxious that so many people are in so much pain because of their illness. 

You know, because I've told you, I'm also a "stayer" and always prepared to stick with it  no matter what, even if it means that i get destroyed in the process.  I sympathize with you as a stayer.  I understand it. 

Still, I want to share with you that i've uncurled from my ball, reached out to friends, relatives I haven't seen in a long time.  I've managed to force myself to go out and socialize. The whole time I'm carrying this body in a body bag thrown over my shoulder - it's him, I'm carrying him and his butchering of me like a large purse. It compromises everything I do. Still, I'm doing it and I'm hopeful that one day I will walk over to a dumpster while I'm out and throw the body in there and walk alway with less baggage.

You're so deeply into this, deeper than I was into mine despite my 7 year tour of duty, so I can't make suggestions to you about removing yourself from him or the situation.  I just WISH you could say "umm, you've got tremendous problems, you'll always have this emotional carousel, there will always be a revolving door of people screwing with our relationship, I deserve to be a man's one and only, there's no end in sight to this journey of agony, when it's good I can't enjoy it because I know that bad is up ahead. Goodbye"

I'm desperately trying to embrace that mindset but it's so painful.  Seems so impossible. He's moved out? I would try everything within your strength and support of your family and friends to imagine him dead and unavailable for any kind of a relationship down the road. That sounds harsh, but I'm over here trying to carve out a survival plan too. 

I feel for you... .  I do. 

Better to look a needy mess, know your hurting, and be working on dealing with your problems... .  

... .  than to look independent and together, while being completely messed up inside, and not know where to start actually working on it.

And I gotta say, it seems better, stronger, and more genuine to let him know that what he is doing to you hurts like hell!

 

P.S. You DID show off your work and your strength. That's the part about not asking/begging him to stay, etc.

Siamese Rescue - you know what? Good for you for getting out there and living your life!  That body is going to start decomposing in the bag and, not only will it get lighter, eventually it will smell bad enough that you'll be happy to pitch in the closest trash can! (Err... .  was that too literal? lol)

You make a lot of good arguments for leaving, SR. Sometimes I have these flashes of 'what if I just left him?' - it's not like it hasn't occurred to me. I think I would actually be fine, odd as that may seem. I mean, I know it would be messy and hurt like hell and I'd have days of regret, etc. but I'm pretty sure I could do it. Right now I just don't want to. I'm not 100% sure why either. Well, now, that's sort of weird, isn't it? I mean, yes, I love him... .  But you can love someone and still leave. Hmm... .  There's obviously more to it but it's less clear when I've got a crying hangover (although I don't want to leave still, but there's an eerie calm after the storm).

GK - thank you. Yes, you're right. Despite appearances, I AM doing better than he is! Not asking him to stay was good. I think I'm improving (slowly).

Thanks for the hugs. It's been a rough road recently... .  

Hi arablella,

I'm sorry you are going through such pain right now.  I truly sympathize.

Just a few observations from the sidelines . . .

Reading this entire thread from the start - you don't sound like someone who is very comfortable in an open relationship.  It sounds more like something you compromised on and have accomodated for a while now.  This arrangement sounds one-sided since he's the only one who really takes advantage of the open relationship.  

Now, he's told the other woman that he loves her.  He's moved out.  She's coming in July. Even under the terms of your open relationship - these things are clearly not ok with you.  Even if he crashes and burns with her (likely) it won't undo the damage to you.  No one likes to feel like they are the consolation prize.    

We've all tried to pound the square peg of their behavior into the round hole of our values in an attempt to hold things together.  The result usually looks something like this:




You sound like a very intelligent and capable person (present conditions notwithstanding - we've all been there  :)).  Listen to your own instincts about this stuff - trust yourself.  You are walking an unsustainable path right now.  Find your truth, and then live it.   Don't pretend with him that this is all ok.  This clearly isn't acceptable to you.  

It's so easy to talk about redlines and "deal breaker" boundaries here.  It's also easy for us on the sidelines to see them and think - I'd never allow that to happen to me.  But in truth, for many of us here on this board, one of the hardest things we will ever do is decide to enforce a "deal breaker" boundary.  The turmoil and conflict within ourselves can feel overwhelming and paralyzing.  Many times we blink and hesitate, playing for time, hoping the pwBPD will "come to their senses" and relieve us of our obligations to protect ourselves and stand up for our values.  Sometimes it works and we get a temporary reprieve.  But, there is always a next time, and the ground we didn't defend last time is always harder to re-take.

You know what's right for your life.  It's incredibly hard to work through these issues when they are staring you in the face.  Believe me, I know.  But, keep working and your path will eventually seem so clear, and so right, that you will have the confidence to proceed despite anything he does or says.  This can take many forms and doesn't mean you have to end the relationship.  It's about taking control over your life, you get to choose what that path looks like.  You aren't the victim of circumstance here.  

Thank you, Briefcase. Phew! I know. I have got to get to that sweet spot where I know what I want. I'm hoping that a bit of time will allow me to see more clearly - you know, now that the 'cloud' is gone.

I told H yesterday that I was feeling like a consolation prize. I didn't come up with that term but I will use it next time, it's very accurate. I just said that it felt like he was more interested in me now that the GF was less interested in him. I need to be a priority for me - not some default to fall back on. If he can't see that, well, I'm betting someone else could. I could do better. I'd even just be better off alone at that point.

I haven't had a major issue with any of the gf's prior to the current one. Spats, sure, but they were resolved and the boundaries that were in place were respected (even the minor ones). My firm boundary with the r/s with other women is that if they become a priority over me then he can have them entirely and me not at all. We can be casual friends, but all of the extras get transfered to the new girl (chores, responsibilities, financial stresses, family obligations, shoulder to cry on, etc). That's how it went last time and that is how it will go this time.

Umm, could you give me an example of a path that would keep me from negatively reinforcing my boundary without ending the r/s? I'm seem to have gotten stuck in black/white thinking over this and it always seems so all or nothing. I really would like to explore other ideas.

Thanks again!

Just wanted to send you some hugs from the UK