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It was 1:30 am when the phone rang and it was my ex-uBPD. 4 weeks ago my ex called me out of the blue to dump me coldly. One week prior to that we were planning our lives together, possibly marriage but most definitely moving together. One week after that he called me again just to drive the point home that it was over and it was final.

It has been a solid 3 weeks and 2 days with n/c which was and feels like an incredible feat but I haven't given in yet. As soon as I saw the phone ringing at 1:30am (which is unbelievable that he would call so late) my body began to convulsively shake, I felt like I was going to vomit. It was an instinctive impulse.

I saw that he had sent me two emails as well, upon reading them I couldn't believe how he had distorted things. We went from planning our lives together to receiving the cold call that it was over and how he had picked up with his old life (replacing me) on that very day. After he was finished giving me the dump speech he was sure to tell me that he wanted us to maintain our 'best friend' status, after all according to him we were family. I sat there stunned trying to figure out how one goes from being in such a serious relationship, planning your lives together and literally being so enmeshed together to 'let's still be best friends and that way we won't lose each other completely" or something like that?

Well I said 'good-bye' and made sure to tell him I wouldn't be calling him again and that it was impossible to be his best friend or anything else. Last word I said to him was good-bye. Tonight I received the two emails one of which says:

"It doesn't feel right at all being cut off from you. I don't know how you could tell me goodbye like that. Did you really mean it? or was it just the frustration and pain speaking aloud?  The thought of a finality between us is what is truly heartbreaking".  

Wow just plain stunned. He called me twice and I did not pick up but I'm feeling even more screwed up than I was before. I see that he is twisting even how the dumping happened and putting it somehow on me because I maintained n/c and even so he wants me to feel guilt.

Second email was saying how much he wants to salvage our connection we had as souls on a deeper level rather than holding onto emotional pains and hurts. He wants an answer from me if I desire to move on from him as though I never knew him and if so he wants me to express that clearly to him (as if him dumping me wasn't clear enough?). He says he wanted to contact me sooner but he has been fighting the urge to do so but that he simply can't endure it anymore. He said he is still hurting from the separation of my presence being withdrawn from his life.

He is asking if I have fought the urge to contact him or if not does my soul feel right not being connected to him. He ends it again by asking me to please tell him plainly and simply one way or the other.

I'm sitting here trying to process this with some amazing advice from a friend I adore and trust. I feel very twisted up suddenly (only he seems to have this affect on me) and I could really use some advice as to what he wants. I understand that I am at the height of this anxiety suddenly and just reaching out because in some ways I feel like I have been instantly re-set back to the beginning of this all. Its been three weeks in and I was just starting to feel a tiny bit of strength, not much but some and maybe enough to just continue. I feel like I have been set back now and what is worse he is demanding an answer from me?

I don't know what to do. I don't know whether I should answer him or not? A part of me wants to tell him to go fly a kite off a cliff, the other part of course is right in the heart of the entire dysfunction. Just not sure how to handle this? Any advice would surely be appreciated... .  maybe I just need to hear the same advice that my good friend gave me a million times?

I apologize for the run off sentences and any grammatical errors. I'm shaking quite a bit and feel very ill from the moment I saw that it was him calling me.  

Help  

Hi Crying!

My heart goes out to you. I have been there myself, and can only tell you how I got through those same sick, nauseous, feelings, one second, one minute, one hour, one day at a time. If you know in your heart that a relationship with a pwBPD will always be like this, cycles or pushing and pulling, pain and joy, and that it is not good for you, take control of ending it. Make up your mind not to accept and emails, calls, texts. Just end it. What's the point of talking about it? He will continue to distort your words, and you'll still come up empty. It's hard, turning away under these circumstances, I know. However, you must come to terms with the reality of the situation. How dare he want to maintain the deep soul connection with you yet "dump" you as you say, the way he has. Once you take hold of yourself, put your energy into the real soul connections you have, with your friends and family who really love you, and can fill you up, you will feel better. You need time away from the toxic influence of BPD, and the further you are from it, the better you will be, trust me, you will get better!

Best Wishes,

Val78

Hey Crying!

What Validation posted really triggered some feelings in me from pretty much my entire relationship with my ex.

I wanted to show you a bit of my own experience when it comes to re-engaging an ex with BPD.

I believe we must have gone through 2 or 3 big recycles.  One of the big recycles lasted for a couple of months.  I though the guy was gone and low and behold one day,

I get the sweetest email from him that I had ever received.  He had taken all those things that he knew about me and poured all of those things into the letter.

Even my love for astrology.  Thinking back it should have been pretty obvious what he was doing, but I was alot more naive then, and I found it cute.

I was hooked again.  The letter was only to get himself in the door again.  After a few months of sweet idealization, it all happened just the same as it did the last time.

and again, and again.

I can tell you first hand that it doesnt stop.  The ride just keeps starting over until you decide to get off.

Going NC is soo painful.  I have not spoken to my ex in 6 weeks.  When I left the relationship I held tight to something that I truly believe.

I can hurt for the moment by letting go, or I can hurt for a lifetime by continuing to live in his world and by his rules.

Why would I invite hurt back into my life with a few sweet words that I know wouldnt hold up on under the light.

My advice would be to stick it out and let go.  We are here for you and we know what your going through.  You will never be happy with someone in your life who

will fill you up, and then in a fraction of a second, Rip your world out from under you.

In the end of all of those recycles... .  after all the love, time, money I put into my relationship... .  it always ended back at 0

laelle

very well said and right on the money... .  im struggling mightily lately but its just for now not for a lifetime... .  you are 100 percent correct about that

chuck

Like so many on here I can relate, one minute I was the creates boyfriend she had ever had and wanted to get married, where we had even discussed the details of that day, then two days later she tells me she ran into her ex husband and they went to look at rings and were thinking of getting married again, I knew she was just trying to get a response out of me and I ignored it and told her I wasn't ok with the games and then I was painted black and banished from the Kingdom, what I realized is that my happiness is not dependent upon anyone but myself and I deserve to be treated with respect and dignity the same way I treat others, I agree with others here that the best course of action is to move on, we can't fix them, they have to want to get better and so many of them not to their fault but just how they are wired can't take responsibility for their actions in a meaningful way, so take it one day at a time and look to others for support everyone on this site understands what you are going through : )

Listen to your body - it has great wisdom. It is your protector and is telling you firmly "detach without regret".

Look at the ex as a great teacher ... .  of what you Don't need in your life. Ask yourself what drew you into the r/s and work on yourself ... .  we can never fix them ... .  just ourselves.

Metta

Words are seductive... .  as all humankind knows well.  Whether we are  Christian, agnostic or have another faith... .  one thing we can all agree upon that a serpent has a forked tongue.

One can argue the pros and cons of anything with equal conviction.

The advise my colleague has given you is a wise one:  Don't talk yourself into or out of anything.  Just listen to your body.  The every essence of your being is telling you that any contact with him is detrimental to the very core of your being... .  

You know at the very cellular level of your being that this individual is a threat.  Your body is reacting with extreme anxiety.

You may be showing PTSD symptoms.  Now to alleviate your anxiety at an immediate level, your first instinct will be to pacify him by agreeing to be friends.  Then the entire cycle will begin again.

What he wants from you is comfort and soothing.  Well, it is not yours to give because he can only be healed with clinical intervention and his own personal strict and long term adherence to therapy requirements.

Sadly all the love in the world cannot cure him.

Resist picking up the phone, use us for support, use your friends, use your family, try not to get entangled with any discussion of any sort.  Plain NC is the only way to go.  Your heart will hurt like hell.  Afterall you are in mourning.  It is a death of a dream.  It is the dying of hope.  Your heart will fight against it, your brain will tell you it is a good thing.

This ambivalence will simply kill your well being---physically, emotionally, spiritually, financially... .  

Your most precious resource is time and energy.  Use it well.  Use it wisely.

To satisfy your good altruistic impulses, volunteer for a good cause... .  like Red Cross, volunteer in a hospital, Library, Soup Kitchen... .  using time and energy to rescue an adult child is not a wise decision because it is an unfruitful enterprise.

If you were a trained clinician and this were a doctor-patient relationship, you could have helped him... .  within the parameters of any relationship---friendly or romantic... .  you cannot help him.

I hope you will consider counseling for yourself as you are going through a very tough time and getting a professional perspective will surely help.  Please do consider it.

God bless.

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PM sent.  

He makes no mention of you, your feelings. Nothing.

It's obviously off the chart selfish and I suppose "delusional' is an appropriate word.

Makes me mad. grrrrr.

You are getting all the great advice and support you need here.  |iiii

I re-read the emails but this time imagined they were coming from my ex. It's really interesting to read your ex's emails and see them as off the chart self serving and delusional.

Here's the interesting part for me. WHen I re-read them but this time imagined my ex was sending them to me, my reaction was completely different! It's chilling how when I read it that way, I feel the pull, the tug and the GRATITUDE that she is reaching out for me and expressing feelings.

It's wild to see it that way and it's distressing and depressing how we can be grateful to be pulled back when all we were really doing on the truest of levels was participating in a sick relationship in which we were either caretakers and coaches and getting our 'fix' and in my case the 'reward' when things were going well, an constant, endless 'soundtrack' of 'you are the most wonderful romantic man in the world", "You love me. You really love me"... .  over and over and over... .  and contrasted with constant 'compliments' for things that were mundane, such as "I love how you clean up the kitchen and do laundry. I love a man who can do that", all the while the underlying message is 'if you don't do that or if you disappoint me, I will judge you on a deep level and it is PROOF"

These examples are milktoast boring nothing things, right?

And yet they are extremely INSIDIOUS.

The relationships and dynamics are insidious and addicting and damaging with a BPD partner.

Only by ripping it apart and seeing it for what it was and WHY we didn't head for the hills is one of the questions. But more than that, I believe while we do have specific areas of our own personas that hold the answers to the 'whys' of our attraction to the BPD individual, there is also specific damage as a result of these relationships.

I believe we needed extreme examples of our own issues because 'normal' relationships were/are boring and didn't give us the insight we 'needed' on some level.

Hope this has some meaning to you. It was really a very different experience re-reading the emails and putting myself in your shoes.

But the cold, detached advice you receive and as another poster pointed out, by simply listening to your body, you will know what to do.

I think it's good he reached out. It challenges you, it disrupts the fragile peace... . But you will be stronger when you resist.

Crying,


I agree with what some others have already said... .  Definitely listen to your body -- as it is telling you something important!


I went thru something similar before, myself... . And I'm a fairly tough guy. :)

After an intense situation occured between BPDex & me, for about a week afterwards I was so scared of running into her at a certain time of day (we used to work at the same company, ugh), that my hands & lower arms were shaking uncontrollably for a good 10-15 minutes each time.

Nobody -- man or woman -- has *ever* caused me such a physical reaction like that before. Tells you a lot right there.


For your own sake, you need to stay away.

Personally, I've never had to block phone #'s or anything like that. But I do know that some here do have to do that, depending on the situation.

Hopefully your ex will find somebody else or something so he can leave you alone.


In the meantime, you can always find lots of supportive  here. This is a truly great site & community!

Only you can decide what to do. 

But Id say run and never look back! Seems simple, but I know its tough.  Emails are just a way to get you to answer back and there is the rollercoaster all over again... .  

Take care of yourself.

Thank you all for your advice. There is so much there that I needed to hear.

Validation78 when you wrote "how dare he want to maintain the deep soul connection with you" it hit another nerve because the audacity of him desiring to maintain this for himself really at my expense while never being accountable or responsible in any meaningful way just as  Mark2430 stated. This is so true because his email reads that he was amazed that I said good-bye and meant it as though how dare I. He tried to make me feel guilty by saying that he needs to know if I want to erase him and pretend like I never knew him. It's a heavy manipulation when he knows that I'm trying to do what people do when they are dumped, move on. Only they never want to give us that liberty or freedom.

There are so many gems in what all of you have written here that I need to ponder. What you said nolisan about my bodies reaction hit me because to be honest I didn't even realize or process that my body was telling me to run. What Hurt llama said also blew me away and that was that he makes absolutely  no mention of me or my feelings. "Nothing" as Hurt llama so blatantly ascertained with a sharp awareness stating the delusion in my ex and his abject selfishness. It is all about him in the end but he will twist it so that I feel guilty and somehow entwined in his Soul of needing him. Nolisan that was truly brilliant and allowed me to look at it from a completely different perspective. Interestingly I was completely blinded to that and perhaps it was the most obvious indicator and signal. Thank you!

And as Chuck said the suffering is only for now and not for a life time. Things I need to play in my head over and over and over again. The other thing that struck me was Hurt's reflection on just how insidious they can be with a double message implied. That was brilliant so I'll just re-post that part ""You love me. You really love me"... .  over and over and over... .  and contrasted with constant 'compliments' for things that were mundane, such as:

From Hurt llama -

"I love how you clean up the kitchen and do laundry. I love a man who can do that", all the while the underlying message is 'if you don't do that or if you disappoint me, I will judge you on a deep level and it is PROOF"

These examples are milktoast boring nothing things, right?

And yet they are extremely INSIDIOUS.

The relationships and dynamics are insidious and addicting and damaging with a BPD partner."

That is what exactly how it always was. I felt like I was living inside a subtitled movie he would always say one thing (to set me up) but imply a veiled threat underneath it all, watching me and waiting for the moment he could use it against me and crucify me pinning his fears and everything he hated on me. Insidious is probably the best word I can think of. Hurt llama there is so much in what you write and process and I find that to be true of all of you which helps me in ways that I know I could not get out there in the world. This is the place where I am able to find a means to cope with it all and learn along the way.

Laelle what you said about being essentially exploited until we are back at 0 with 0 is a haunting truth, only each time we have less and less and are driven to a greater depth of despair. That mountain we need to overcome seems to double in size with each time we are torn down and used up. Well those two email and receiving 2 phone calls at 1:30 am made me feel that instantly. There was no consideration once again for me or my well being. It was pure selfishness to call me at 1:30am with his needs while clearly not being cognoscenti of what he has done to me. The thought of him trying to make me feel guilty after doing what he did as though he has done nothing wrong and I should just be grateful that he doesn't want to cut our Soulful cord just puts me in a spin of the worst kind.

I know as I wrote this response in thanks to all of you I am venting my own continued twisted feelings because it's going to take a while for me to process this all again. The thing that amazed me was the clear and violent response of my body which lead me to have to take an ativan because I was literally convulsing and felt like I was going to have a heart attack while my body couldn't stop madly shaking. It was crazy and intense and such a powerful instinctive response that I was left dumbfounded.

pallavirajsinghani I want to thank you so much because everything you wrote reached me with also an intense impact. I can't argue with your logic and truth because ultimately I know that to be true. My love can't cure him and yes it is the death of my dream and maybe even the one dream I wanted the most in all my life. Saying good-bye to that does feel like a death and that is why this whole thing is so utterly tragic in so many ways. Your also right that I appear to be suffering from PTSD symptoms and I do need to sit down with a counselor and work some of this out. I'm so raw right now and I know all of us can relate here that I can't trust myself yet. I can't trust my heart and I fear this perpetual weakness that I keep trying to conquer daily. I do plan on making an appointment to see someone so thank you.

So, I'm fighting still and I know that. I have not responded to his emails and feel really numb and at the same time like I'm a bleeding mess. I wouldn't even know what to write even if I tried because this whole thing is so crazy to me. There are so many things wrong with this as Hurt llama said, there was no mention of my feelings or taking any kind of responsibility for any of what he did as Mark2430 stated. Val is right when clearly pointing out why the heck would I want to maintain my Soul connection with him as though we are still one (one sided) after what he has done. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a world where you can have your cake and eat it too and that is what he is accustomed to in his perpetual selfishness.

He doesn't think he needs to be accountable but instead he feels entitled to keep his reward so that he can feed and siphon me for his use because it's all about how much I love him, no matter if he is killing me along the way for that love I have for him.

It's all so twisted and I can't help but feel violated emotionally because he manages to even twist how he ended it all yet in his head he can still have me on his own terms, so that way he doesn't really lose anything. Instead he can maintain his total dysfunction while placating himself with me so that he never has to be accountable or look at anything he doesn't want to. By me staying in his life I will be allowing him to continue living in his dark bubble of denial. In essence I will act as a reward perpetuating his twisted delusional dysfunction which in truth will only serve to send him a mixed message in further screwing him up, if that is possible.

It is true he desires to be soothed and I was his greatest soother. All his replacements I guess didn't work out for him the way he was hoping so now it's about trying to pull me back in with the one thing he knows would affect me - our Soul connection which always felt so powerfully deep. Well I'm seeing just how deep that little pond really was after all. When I looked at the water it looked like there was no end to the reflection when looking down upon it. When I put my foot in I realized to my utter surprise that it is only half a foot deep. I stand there amazed.

Apologize for this but honestly I just need to put my thoughts down here and try and work out what is so clearly a twisted reality.

I have found this thread incredibly strengthening and a excellent reminder of the subtle power and guilt shifts that happen in the aftermath of BPD breakups.

My ex kept in touch with me for about two months after he suddenly left me.  We were writing about politics, life, poetry, science, philosophy, everything but us.  But it was so painful.  I didn't understand why he'd ended things with us, why he'd refused to work on the issue he pointed to as the reason he ended it, despite calling it "tragic" and "awful" and saying I was incomparable and he would always miss me.  Finally, I told him I needed time and space to heal, and needed no contact.

He immediately spun responsibility around the way your ex did in these emails, CryingWings.  He wrote that this "ordeal" had changed him profoundly, and that he didn't understand why I had been unwilling to meet and talk.  In fact, I had all but begged him to reconsider his decision, but he kept reiterating that he was sure it had to end.  What would have been the point of seeing him in person--so I could sob in front of him and literally beg?

This subtle twisting of responsibility became so confusing.  When I did then meet with him, he said "I always thought we'd talk" -- even though he'd never asked me to.  And after we discussed the alleged issue for a few  minutes, he decided it wasn't a problem after all, and "should we try again?"  And it was left for me to be the one to insist that something big had happened for him, something we needed to take more seriously and deal with.  I quoted back to him some of the things he'd said in explaining the breakup, and he had no memory of them.  He ended up getting cold feet about getting back together because I insisted that he would need to do some internal scrutiny and figure out what goes on for him when he approaches intimacy (during the breakup, I'd learned that he'd had a very similar pattern with many other women, which I didn't know while we were together).

So as you all are analyzing with CryingWings, there was this subtle shifting of responsibility for what happened, so you'd have thought I had broken up with him.  Just because I'd accepted that he meant what he said, and basically pulled the shreds of my pride and dignity around me and didn't fly to his side, ring his doorbell in the middle of the night and beg, I guess.  Also, he simply didn't take seriously how devastating this had been -- he didn't act like it needed to be understood and prevented from recurring, it just needed to be forgotten.  He wanted to be back together ... .  he wanted that good feeling again ... .  but the work needed to get there, no, he just wasn't up for that.  Much as I longed for him to show up and reclaim our wonderful r/s, it was just so lame.

While we were still discussing what to do, I went away out of cell and email range for three days.  When I got back, I could tell something had shifted -- again.  He was being reserved and holding back.  Like yours, CryingWings, my whole body was screaming at me "danger! danger!"  I was on full alert for an attack.  I literally did not sleep for a minute that night.  I was rigid with anxiety and fear.  We'd planned to meet the next morning & I ended up having to put it off till the afternoon to try to get even an hour of sleep so I wouldn't be a complete mess while trying to talk with him.  Sure enough, when I got there, even though he wanted to kiss me and make out passionately, the message ended up being that maybe he didn't want to be in a r/s at all, and maybe we should just do baby steps, which appeared to be making out occasionally with no commitments, expectations or statements of love.

I won't detail everything that's happened since, but it's basically been a long story of him arranging to have emotionally intimate access to me but without any commitments or even acknowledgement of the nature of our relationship. He's found new ways to betray my trust and love.  And that basic pattern -- of him getting to keep all of the good stuff without any accountability to or responsibility to me -- got set in those early days after the breakup, in the very same kinds of exchanges your ex has initiated with you.  I just want to say: take the interpretation you wrote out above very much to heart.  It is an accurate map of the insidious, subtle ways this can mess with your mind and sense of obligation and responsibility for a very long time.

PatientanClear you hit the nail on the head because that is exactly what seems to be happening. My ex found a way to change the number by which he was calling me so that I didn't recognize it and I answered it. The first question he asked was "how are you really doing?" I was mortified and I think I couldn't speak for the first 10 minutes of which he spoke to me in an agony.

I just got home from my 12 hour shift and it wasn't even 8pm (no time yet to eat dinner or anything but he called) he couldn't wait any longer because he tried to call me Saturday night and I did not respond to the phone or emails. He was upset with me and asked why I didn't answer because he knew I was online. I asked him how he knew and he told me he follows my you tube account (I have various of which he follows all of them to track whether I'm home or out) hmmmmmmm for someone who dumped me 4 weeks ago he seems to be on my tail big time.

Anyway I ended up on the phone with him 'hooked in for 4 hours' surprise surprise. I'm emotionally spent and I tried talking to him about his symptoms and compared it to mine so that he wouldn't be as defensive. He seemed more open to what I had to say. The entire conversation was about him not wanting to lose me but not wanting to commit like yours... .  go figure.

I put a spin on him and just let that spin go... .  his head was all confused and suddenly for the first time he didn't know what to say. He doubted his own reasoning for once... .  and seemed to not know anymore what the truth was. That was a moment. I was not ok with him wanting to have me in his life under the guild and duress of 'unconditional love' without being accountable and owning up to that or not. If not than it's over. He said he was terrified to put his heart in my hands and be completely vulnerable and a victim of what ever pain and disappointment I would cause him on account of all the things that I already caused him and made him leave me".

He asked me "so do we continue then and try and break these chains? Do we try in this relationship then? I could not give him an answer I just told him that his version of reality was obscured and not the truth. I gave him the real versions and challenged him. For the first time I ever remember he was speechless and finally said "I don't know what is real anymore". I told him I needed to sleep and the last thing he said to me was "I needed to hear your voice and I will call you Wednesday night".

This is a fall but not a complete fall... .  I recognize it and somehow knew that I needed to just have this to fully close the door. He is open for the first time hearing about his symptoms and I gave him plenty of examples. I was the over powering voice for a change on the phone and he did not fight me. I don't know if that is typical in this case but I can only imagine that it is. He was angry that I ignored him and did not respond to him especially knowing that I was online because he was tracking me.

I feel dumb but I don't think I am. I think I will come out of this ok but somehow I need to go through it like this. Maybe I'm delusional and I wouldn't doubt it but I'm still trying to figure it all out. He kept repeating that he does not want me out of his life no matter what. At the end he was considering trying again in light of the slanted reality versions that I put before him that he was guilty of with me. I said nothing... .  committed to nothing and lead him to think that I am undecided about everything other than the fact that he left me. The rest is up in the air.

Everything you wrote about Patientandclear sounds like this experience to a T. Right now I don't know who is playing who but I screwed with his head in a way that he wasn't expecting. He literally said he didn't know what was what anymore and he wanted to learn more about 'these symptoms' which he actually for the first time did not deny.

I don't know if it is part of his game. That is what I have to ascertain. I'm exhausted... .  beyond belief. Feel somewhat helpless in this because he knows me in a way that is so 'deeply me'.

My ex use to love to speak in poetic, dramatic form when he wanted to convince me to speak to him.

We are like Romeo and Juliette.  Its like the greatest love tragedy in the history of literature.  He would have been better to compare us to

Beauty and the Best or Lady and the Tramp.

I couldnt keep losing him every time he pushed me away.

I stopped chasing him because im better than that.

To continue to invest in stock that keeps crashing doesnt make you stupid, but it shows you might want to have a look at the possibility that you have a bad investment broker.

I'm doing that now.

I know but I will admit that it felt good hearing his voice after what felt like torment for 3 weeks and 4 days. Suddenly everything felt normal again (which is the dysfunction). I realize that he was hot on my trail keeping track of when I'm on line because of my youtube account (music fanatic) and that is how he has been tracking me day in and day out.

In essence he was adamant to talk to me knowing exactly when I would be home. He was perturbed that I did not respond to him since Saturday night at 1:30 am and had to wait 2 days, which appears to be his limit.

The strange thing is that he did not initiate getting back together just asked to stay in each others lives because he did not want to live without me in his life. I did not agree to. He said he didn't want to live without me... .  that on one else compared. blah blah blah... .  I have to ride this out for what it is. He asked me if I purposely kept away from contacting him (ego question)... .  he needed to know that.

He kept going on about how we were connected first as brother and sister in The Lord and as best friends... .  couldn't that suffice. When he realized that was not sufficient to me he was open to what I had to say although he was willing to let me go, at least that is what he said.

He said he now wants to build bridges to the hurts so that we can move onward to a renewed 'thing'. I have no idea what ever that was or what that meant. He was intent on building new bridges to give us a new start. I can't help but see the recycling and the same devaluation that he can't help himself from. I'm allowing this part of the process to be a part of my own. Maybe I need this to really be done but I'm honest... .  after weeks of tormented pain and agony tonight was a relief even if it was not real and a sham.

He is his own worst nightmare... .  he will find everything to sabotage so what ever head way I have done tonight I can bet will be destroyed by his illness by the time he calls me on Wednesday. One thing is for sure... .  he is and can't bear the thought of life without me in it even as a friend. However... .  I cannot do that.

Oh man this is so hard... .  am truly tired and don't know what the heck I'm doing in this all. 3 weeks 4 days n/c and then this. It seems to be by the book for BPDs.

Could use some advice. I'm so mixed, torn and God knows in love with him.

CW ... .  a few disparate things.

First, you aren't stupid by any means to have had that conversation with him.  I would give a lot to ever have had one full conversation with my ex about our r/s after I had learned about BPD.  (I only learned about BPD months after the reconnection I wrote about above.)

But what you wrote above needs to be your guidepost.  You stand in a very perilous position when you are the one to force him to confront his behaviors.  These are defenses to which he is deeply attached, that he thinks have served him well over the years.  There is rarely any long-term thanks for being the one to pull aside the curtain and reveal them.  Forgottenarm, a member here, once wrote very insightfully about her ex that he didn't seem to like that she really knew him and loved him despite these wounds & dysfunctions.  He preferred her to consume and be persuaded by his false self.  He did not appreciate that she saw deeper than that, because he could not believe anyone who really saw those things could possibly stay and love him.

One thing that rings incredibly true to me that your ex told you on the phone is that he is scared to give you his heart & then be vulnerable to the same disappointment and failure that caused him to leave you in the first place.  I think this is one of the most honest, full statements of the BPD core reality you will ever here.  I've heard versions of that from many of the members of this board who've been honored by deep, honest, self-reflective conversations with their partners about what this condition really feels like.  The core dynamic is one of disappointment, and the devastation of being disappointed by an intimate partner.  Likely because of some original trauma they experienced, they are certain (not fearful -- certain) that they will be disappointed, and the pain of that is unbearable.  With each new love there is a momentary break in the certainty, a hope that disappointment can be avoided.  But then something happens that disabuses them of that, and you fall from this impossible-to-sustain position of being the one who will not disappoint, and then you become terrifying, because you have the power to hurt greatly, and they cannot stand that fear.

Once that happens, he is right, you see.  You will disappoint him and that will hurt him -- unless he has the skills to process this & to filter out your love and warmth from the day to day disappointments that inevitably will occur.  And it's a trap for you, because the more you try not to disappoint, the more suspicious he becomes that you must be concealing something or have a hidden agenda (the phrase my ex used about me toward the end of our intimate friendship) ... .  the better you are, the higher the stakes, and the more scared they get to believe in your and the r/s.  An awful trap for you both.

My final thought for you: this thing he is doing of offering you to "be in his life" in an intimate way but without fully getting back together ... .  I am one of quite of few on these boards who have played that out (I've posted a lot about my efforts to have an intimate friendship with my ex on Staying, though it doesn't sound like you are inclined in that direction--I'm sharing this with you more so you can have some perspective on what your ex is offering you, and why).  I've come to see it as a BPD special situation -- it's like the closest thing many pwBPD can get to sustainable intimacy.  Because they can dip into the well of emotional proximity, love and warmth for as long as they can stand it, and then back away for a while, without really violating any obvious rules or expectations ... .  because after all, you're just friends, right?  So they don't have to break up or feel like an terrible person when they have to, say, disappear for two weeks because their closeness with this other person freaks them out enormously.

I concluded, after I learned about BPD, that this might be something my ex could do and sustain, so I tried it.  I let him come and go, and he did indeed need to go ... .  we'd get super close, he'd freak out & pull away, then he'd return.  It got so I sort of trusted that cycle and could live with it.  In the course of doing that for 7 months, I came to see that there are genuine good intentions behind that, maybe more so than the continuing romantic/sexual recycles we read about so much on here.  I respected my ex's instinct that he couldn't be my romantic/sexual partner and I made that my boundary also.  I think we operated with some integrity toward one another for a long time on those terms.  But it was no ordinary friendship on either side.  He was my partner in the oddest way in all but name, and in that we were not sleeping together, during that time.  It was one another we would share random little vignettes from our days with; we'd often be each other's last text of the night; we poured out our hearts to one another.  I don't think your ex's impulse to want you in his life in that way is ill-intentioned, probably the opposite.  He is probably trying to hang onto the good, pure feelings he has for you and leave behind the messy betrayal part, that he associates with sex and romance.

Many people on here report their exes talking about wanting to keep the emotional connection but not have sex and by all means not Formally Acknowledging The Relationship.  One member here, Cardinals in Flight, calls the resulting unacknowledged primary r/s an "unship."  It's a real thing pwBPD seem to want to do and to be able to do -- to a point.  Another former member I correspond with has a pretty awesome sexual and constant emotional r/s with her "ex" who is really her partner, but he keeps insisting it is not really a relationship and he is actually searching for another partner.  A friend of mine in real life observed about my ex that "he can only be intimate with you by denying that it is happening."

I say this not at all to recommend it -- my experiment in this regard ended recently in a very painful way (he still ended up betraying my trust and I still ended up disappointing him) and I no longer think this arrangement is likely sustainable long term any more than a romantic/sexual r/s is -- but to validate that what your ex is driving at probably seems to him to be something more pure, true and sustainable than a romantic r/s.  And he is offering it because you really are very important to him and he really does feel connected to you.

None of this helps to determine what you want to do.  But maybe it will make you feel you are involved with a real human being who is not a terrible person, just because he is enormously emotionally compromised.  I think a lot of what is discussed on this board as pwBPD keeping exes around as "narcissistic supply," etc., is really a much more understandable desire that they have not to completely lose people they tried to attach to, just because their attempt to have a romantic partnership inevitably was destroyed by BPD.

I suspect all you will have to do to figure out what you want to do about a future r/s with him is watch and wait.  If you ask him to sustain a commitment to working through his intimacy issues in, e.g., DBT, and say you will consider resuming a romance with him after 6 months of DBT if he still wants to do that ... .  and if he does that ... .  I'll be pretty blown away.  I wouldn't be surprised if you encounter a significant withdrawal by him now that you have shared with him that you have this clear view of his issues and flaws.

But I don't think he is a monster trying to manipulate you with talk of your deep connection & his desire not to lose it.  My guess would be that he ultimately will be unable to maintain that connection with integrity, as a lover (as you've already experienced, since it sounds like he immediately resumed a r/s with someone else? as did mine, BTW, which caused me to spend 10 months in NC) or a friend.  But that doesn't mean the impulse isn't coming from a place of genuine warmth toward and connection with you.  It's a tragedy for him, too.

Let me ask you, when you were with him how did that make you feel?

All of it, the good and the bad? What made your relationship so awesome for you?

Im not trying to discourage your contact with him, because its something alot of us want so desperately to reach out to the people we love.  Trust me, I understand your need there.  

I thought exactly the same thing as you when you said you felt "stable" after you contacted him.  If I could just talk to him, I wouldnt feel this pain anymore.

I wouldnt feel THIS pain, but I would feel the OTHER pain.  For me, I know THIS pain will end, but the OTHER pain will continue as long as I allow it in my life.

I wont live with a lifetime of being devalued and feeling like I need him to breath.  Screw that.

Just know that you can ALWAYS change your mind and stop contacting him.  

FOG is one of those things that keeps us stuck and going back.

Crying,

Come on girl, you can get past this. Keep up the n/c !

I know its tough but remember the support you were giving me when I got the snail mail ?

That was at my day 41 of n/c.


Plow on, remember the past hurts and put the good stuff on the back burner.

That letter / note dropped me to my knees but now at day 55, it is way in the past.

I think too that it is a 2 step forward 1 step back, but overall you will make progress.

Block the phone.  Block emails.  Struggle on with the n/c.

It gets better with time.

Monty

Hi Cryingwings

Everything other members have said to you on here is absolutely true (such profound and moving thoughts from amazing people on here) and you will have to find your own way which I imagine you are trying to do right now.

I believe that your physical reaction is of an addict reacting to a hit after withdrawing for a time. You will feel calm for a while.

I split with my undiagnosed boyfriend a year ago. He dumped me but said we had to be best friends or he would kill himself. He became more and more dysregulated and I found out he was seeing someone else. In the end I went NC. He wouldn't stop contacting me so I changed my mobile number and email address. I even got the Police involved. After 10 weeks he tracked me down on a dating website and I caved.

Long story cut short I have had contact on and off with him since. Never kissed or been intimate but the first time he came back I let him sleep in my bed one night. My goal then was to try and plant the seed of BPD in his mind because I was desperately worried about him and still very tied up in caring for his welfare, to the detriment of my own. I went NC again shortly after as he just bombarded me with phone calls. I have 2 children who I refuse to let be involved in any of this again, or in any of my relationships.

He is currently in contact. He jokes about the fact that I won't give him my phone number and his current tactic is to prove just how fine and happy he is being single. Because I am happy single.

Cryingwings I tell you my story because people with BPD NEED people in their lives. He needs you close. He feels a strong love for you and a need to be with you but when it gets too close he cannot bear it.

You think you can help him because you care deeply for him. You will do anything you can to help him. You will also do anything you can to get back to the first dream you had before it all went wrong.

You cannot get back to that dream. It has been shattered and it will keep on getting shattered.

If you can, change your phone number and your email. take down your youtube account/facebook or any way you have of him staying connected. Do this for both of you.

If you really feel you have to stay in contact try to avoid any physical intimacy. Do this to protect yourself. He will absolutely pull back as soon as you reconnect fully.

I really feel for you Cryingwings. This is a terribly confusing disorder. I cannot cut the strings to my ex even though I think it would probably be the best thing for both of us! I am waiting for my next opportunity however and wishing I'd stayed stronger the last time he got back in touch.

Strength to you x

Sorry you had to go through that CW but well, you had to.

One of the questions that gets batted around here is 'did/does or BPD partner, love us?" and after a great deal of thought being certain that mine does, I'm now of the mind that she loved what I 'represented' and in the same way, I loved what she represented. Another 'standard' way to look at BPD love is that their love is akin to a young child's love. I've agreed with that and I still do but what age is that 'child" emotionally? I've thought immature love my ex had was that of a 12 year old or a 10 year old (depending how I looked at her) but the accurate age of this 'child's" love is more akin to a 2 or 3 year olds.

What specifically did your or my BPD partner love about us that we both believe they never will find again? I believe we are right, that our partners never will what find anything close to what you and I offered them but that is misleading and not an indication that the love we received was any more 'authentic' or real than their 'love' towards anyone else.

The reason I feel this is that I was not my authentic self with my partner and I did my share of using my creative abilities, my insights into their persona's and in many ways, I 'manipulated' her. The more 'successful' I was in manipulating and practically 'brainwashing' her as I suppose she was 'brainwashing' me, the deeper I got wrapped up and slowly but surely lost my perspective on what precisely was happening. At times when I could not maintain this 'face' of some sort of 'special being' and she would grow ice cold and seemingly extremely together and rational and I would feel I lost my 'power' over her, my anxiety would skyrocket. But we both had this simbiotic reliance on each other and a relationship that was at the core clearly extremely dysfunctional and false.

I knew all this on most levels as it was happening but continued to miss the damage I was putting off by continuing to manipulate her in ways that I do not think anyone else will be able. By super succeeding in my manipulations, I was super feeding the idealization that I craved and relied on. As this dynamic continued, my true self slowly eroded as I justified my actions every step of the way. I was in control, no question and I mitigated my risks of which I carefully 'calculated' by 'knowing' I could not get really that hurt as long as I always had an escape plan in effect.

When she moved 3,000 miles from her home to my home, after selling most of her processions and uprooting her life, my panic set in. She was the perfect partner when she settled in. My dream, my fantasy, my reality. Her anxiety quickly fired up and she turned and started firing both barrels of her guns at me declaring how sick I am and how I desperately needed anger management.

I had a few sleepless nights before I took her out to a local park for a walk and unceremoniously told her it's not going to work out.

She barely reacted. WHen I returned home, the ring was on my night table along with a watch I had bought her. We agreed she would stay two days before flying home. We went to dinner that night and she was perfectly composed, she even gave me a sly sweet smile saying, "You crazy ass" and she seemed happy and to admire my decision.

What a lingerie show I got as she packed. She used every possible trick in the book to get me to have sex with her. At one point I handed her back the engagement ring and literally went into the bathroom and dry heaved. I felt like I was going to black out. She handed the ring back and we went to sleep in the same bed. No sex.

She returned home and she started mind games and I maintained my own. She returned a month or two later and we had great sex, dramatic fights and we referred to that insane visit many times in romantic, exciting times that we both 'enjoyed'.

We continued to hurt each other, take it to Defcon Five and each use a WOMD (weapon of mass destruction) on each other. Yet we never lost touch and even after the blasts, once the smoke settled we continued to dance of connection, each of us holding onto that connection for dear life, even though I had and she had other partners.

This same dance had continued all the way until not even 3 weeks ago when I finally decided to give it a real chance and changed my mind 48 hours later after the obvious realization I have been and will continue to feel 'unsafe' and that I just couldn't have a life in which I would have anxiety every time I wasn't with her and never trusting her around men.

In the second week of NC, all sorts of feelings are coming up. Waves of them... . Re-experiencing countless interactions and seeing them in my mind much differently.

The incredible sex for instance. Was that really about me or her? The last few times we had sex, I started looking at it differently. And it was masturbation with her using me as she could use anyone and the freedom I felt with her and the fantasy I couldn't do those things and enjoy them in 'functional' as opposed to 'dysfunctional' relationships is just that. A fantasy.

The hardest part of No Contact, for me is not about contact at all. Ultimately it's not even about her. It's about re thinking not just this relationship but how was I before, during and after and what damage did I take from this relationship 3-4 years ago and carry it foreword in every subsequent relationship? And most importantly, what is it in my life, inside of me that has been exposed and can I 'fix' myself as to be able to no longer see my ex as I have seen her? We brainwashed each other.  I was walking on eggshells, I was craving appreciation, attention like a child. Did these need exist in dysfunctional ways before meeting my ex BPD partner? Yes. Were they ever this bad in my adult life? No.

Am I damaged from close contact with a mentally ill person for a number of years. Yes. Can I more easily 'fix' myself than she can herself? Heck yeah. She most likely never will 'get' it, even with the superficial therapy she is starting, medications and so forth. But it's not my problem any more. Not my job. I don't wish her well so much as I did. I think in these 'well wishes' continues a connection. Any connection at this point at least is a bad connection.

Does any of her thoughts, feelings, and what she does now matter to me? Less, less and less.

To look at ourselves plainly, solidly and in unflattering light in the mirror is brutal. It's easier to focus on their obvious illness than at our own internal and Original Pain that was re-activated by a relationship with a BPD. It's easier to get a 'fix', connection with them and the high we get in any connection, even bad, allows us to not focus on our own Original Pain in our lives and with them.

I don't have a choice or maybe I do. But I will not destroy my life for short term cheap thrill highs to be connected to her or anyone else.

It's our turn to fly.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCX8VJIYgM8

A 4 hour conversation is not a conversation.  His anxiety is very high and he needed just to hear "a" voice to help him alleviate it.  I have seen this pattern repeatedly with the BPD sufferer in our lives.  The phone has to be picked up immediately, the text has to be responded right away, the email has to be answered that very minute... .  this sense of urgency shows that their brain is in fight or flight mode... .  that the adrenaline level is very high.  I believe that this type of contact prevents an immediate panic attack.

I also believe that this call is not indicative of a desire to change, rather it is indicative of perpetuation of the same past patterns. 

"I feel threatened when you take your attention away from me.  My very welfare is threatened.  And when your attention is completely on me for more than a 4 hour duration... .  let's say, as it would be in a relationship, then I am afraid that you would suffocate me."

This is an ego which has not reached maturation.  It is emotionally at an infantile stage.

I can quite easily believe that the relief that this 4 hour conversation provided to him might as well empower him to turn around and go to a bar and pick up another woman.

Please understand that this post is not a criticism of this mental disorder.  Their pain is real, their constant and desperate measures to alleviate that pain unfortunately are dysfunctional.

CW you are one of my newest and best friends.

I love this post in it's simple truth. "A four hour conversation, isn't a conversation."

But you know how I see it as that the feeling if his anxiety as pallavirajsinghani posted is not only HIS anxiety, it's probably yours too. Or at least that's how it has felt precisely to me in my own experience when I cut her off or she disappeared on me.

All you need to read and know you have read and do know. Facing it all is the hardest part. I'm trying to do the same now and I do understand and sympathize with the difficulty of rethinking, reordering this weird symbiotic dysfunctional bond we made with our BPD partner. We played with fire, that much I know is true for us both.

Pursuant to our PM's here's the official war rant.

We are warriors. We are in battle. We made a choice. Failure is for failures. We know two failures and we don't care what they do. We don't wish them well. We don't wish them poorly. Our wishes for them are giving energy we need for ourselves.

Let do a lot of talking here. It's 'process' and it's good.

But let's make no mistake, this battle we are in is a real one. We are battling for our future for our present. If we give up in this battle we know our fate. We have no excuses.

The hard part is in detaching, disconnecting.

The harder part is facing ourselves in the aftermath and seeing thing for what they were and what they are.

Embrace this battle, this struggle. Relish it, roll around in it because in this epic struggle/battle holds the keys to our future health and well being. We are not often given this gift of clear battle lines.

(I am channeling Troy, Conan and Patton lol)

We have nothing to fear except fear itself.

Failure is for failures, not for us. - Hurt llama

You don't need luck. You need resolve. You have it.

CW I wrote you a poem.

God I love battle. I do.

I love standing up.

I strive for not wanting annihilation of my enemy. But there's time for that later.

Right now winning is all that matters. If I need anger. I have all I need. If I need

strength I can lift anything. I cannot be stopped. I will not fail.

Failure is a choice. It is not my choice. It is not possible.

There is only one way. The hard way.

I accept it will be hard. That's why I love it.

I accept I will take back the power I so happily gave up.

I accept the second battle that is looming after the first.

That battle is the Ultimate. That battle is for our true Souls.

That battle has nothing to do with our BPD partners.

That battle is the defining battle for the rest of our lives.

We're not playing games or maybe we did.

Game over. Sorry ladies. it's our turn.

wow i've learned so much from this thread. CW, i totally understand you wanting to connect like this with your ex. this is just a short suggestion--use the last self-empowering communication you have with your ex to catapult yourself, with strength into your next round of NC. my ex contacted me recently after almost 6 months NC, and i'm sure it's just b/c she feels lonely b/c she ended r/s #2 for her, badly i've found out through the grapevine, and wants to use me as support.

i'm just flowing here--but many people have alluded to this, i just found out about this term here. the "want to have his cake and eat it too" is Triangulation (read definition) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0) i believe; so he can still feel intimate with you and then do what he pleases with other women. awesome! so great for him! but does he think of your feelings? i think most would say that no they don't think of your feelings, b/c they are emotionally immature. i tend to disagree, i could be wrong, but i don't really think they give a damn about your feelings at all. not because they can't, but because they choose to see themselves as the victim always.

it's totally understandable to feel good after having such a deep convo with your ex. in the same way you have to trust your body to tell you when to go, perhaps you can broker some kind of deal out of this--like, of course we are all striving for complete NC. me too! but then some part of us feels like we will slip and have contact. boo :) but, well, if we do slip, perhaps we can try and be smarter about it and make sure the contact we have is self-empowering rather than devastating. it sounds like for former was true for you with your last contact. i wonder if there's any way to hold onto this truth and use this energy to circumvent the inevitable downturn of things if contact continues?

also, so much good writing here i'm still processing some things people have said about keeping in contact with ex. i have some xBPD-kryptonite on my side right now, b/c i'm with a good woman and love her... .  but yesterday i found out my ex just moved back into my neighborhood, a few houses down. last night she parked just one car behind mine. so, i see i'm going to have to learn to deal with this crap going forward, lol.

i got some more to say CW but will save it for later. thanks for sharing! and, i think you know inside that you are worth waaay more than just one peg on a triangle, don't give yourself hell for leaning on it a little bit, but learn to use it for your own personal advantage and growth  |iiii

==

writing his words gives him power.

posting his words takes from you

you know what you need to know now.

you always did.

the talk last night was great.

stop thinking about acting... . be the fist. be the sword. hesitation, thought is now the enemy. it fogs the mind. it slows reflex. it will kill you.

This is the first battle.

This is EASY

Next battle is for all the marbles. It's 1000x more difficult and we don't have 'them' to distract us from it.

Their words sap our strength. There is nothing in there to help us. Their words to us, as our words to them feed them, weaken  us.

I sense Trilogy... .  haha

===

They do not exist anymore. They were "X", they were "Y" now they are children that don't matter. It's what it must be. How long it takes us is our choice.

This is the EASY part.

The next battle is the real one. It will be 10x, 1000x harder... . I won't fail. Will you?

I know i sound crazy…and I am not good at subtle and I know I am one focused mother f'er when it all clicks together.

I know your way, other peoples way is not necessarily my way. I need to remind myself that I am where I am through my own twists and turns, just as we all are.

But I am sharing my unedited  thoughts that are my way of living and being… I am regaining consciousness. You speak about way of Warrior. I got that. Being a warrior as I keep saying and as you know, is meaningless without a battle without  Victory. Or dying trying.

I take no pride in beating smaller weaker opponents.

Our BPD partners are children not worthy of the sword. Their blood is not necessary.

I envision a true epic battle... . I see it. I mean i literally see it. It's like Troy, Conan and all the rest.

I see children on the battlefield. i protect us both by moving past and making sure my horse doesn't crush them. I see 10,000 maniacs on horseback with swords and weaponry coming as I am distracted with a child.

This battle that 'just started' was over long ago. The real one awaits.

Onward.

Perfect!  Thanks patientandclear, that helped a lot.

I got an email from my ex pwBPD last weekend, which really shook me up at the time, but I've had time to process.  It's now clear that she feels badly about how things ended, misses me, and more or less left the door open for a friendship, should I choose.  And I could feel the shame, like she needed to send that email.  I deleted it and didn't respond, and won't, but originally I saw it as another malicious attempt at manipulation, and P&C's viewpoint is more likely the truth; she wants the good, which she misses, without the bad, which she equates with sex and romance.

So what I'm thinking about friendship is what I need from people I consider friends is compassion, empathy and validation, and what I got from her for most of the r/s was criticism, judgement and devaluation.  She's not qualified to be my friend, and I'm certain that's where the r/s would go if we tried.  NC, one day at a time... .  

[quote author=fromheeltoheal I deleted it and didn't respond, and won't, but originally I saw it as another malicious attempt at manipulation, and P&C's viewpoint is more likely the truth; she wants the good, which she misses, without the bad, which she equates with sex and romance.

So what I'm thinking about friendship is what I need from people I consider friends is compassion, empathy and validation, and what I got from her for most of the r/s was criticism, judgement and devaluation.  She's not qualified to be my friend, and I'm certain that's where the r/s would go if we tried.  NC, one day at a time... .  [/quote]
thumbs up.

I am truly blown away by everyone's response and currently am too exhausted to reply because there is so much there. The amount of profound information that is at the heart of the truth in this all is something that I see within all these responses.

It is going to take me time I know to recover from this and that is partly why I am utterly weakened by it all as Hurt llama stated... .  his words ultimately weaken me and leave me in one way or the other as victim lover but without being the lover even. It is a type of cage for me and as Goldy put it while I am existing in this prison my ex is having his cake and eating it too.

I told my ex this expression last night and his response was"

"I'm not eating any cake because I'm not able to have you the way I want and need to. Don't you see I am suffering so how then can you say I'm having my cake and eating it too? Life is nothing but suffering but I cannot suffer you hurting me. I can suffer the world as long as your in it with me. I can't imagine my life without you. I NEED you".  L

He told me that I ruined him for other women for the rest of his life but that even if he had sex with someone way down the line it wouldn't mean anything because it is only me that he is invested in and needs. He actually feels he needs me in the way that he can have me to survive. Hence why being with me intimately does nothing but trigger him driving him to the extreme of all his fears, insecurities and agony which results literally in physical and emotional torture for him.

That is why having sex with a stranger or who ever poses no threat to him while I pose the greatest of all threats. He needs me but he can only have me in the way that that is safe while maintaining an intimacy without true commitment or sacrifice.

I asked him if we were in a room together do you think you would just keep to that friendship? He broke down crying and said if you were in a room I couldn't do anything but want all of you to myself and nor could I resist that with you but it torments me because you have too much power over me. He made reference to when he lost it and went psychotic hitting and strangling me out of a perceived jealousy that wasn't even real. That terrified him and since then loving me is his terror so he has to love me in the only safe way he knows how to without losing control.

It isn't that I don't get it because I get it all. The issue is that he will never give me what I truly need or want. He is incapable of rationally loving me with the normal healthy balance of dealing with the disappointments that come along the way of a relationship and learning as well as forgiving. For him one error is makes being able to love me final. That is to say that when I hurt him whether it is a real or perceived, that one action is enough to end 'us'.

These betrayals to him make having a relationship with me impossible and finalize any attempt.

As we can see there are double standards because he still wants me to be his intimately but not intimately. These are on his terms and serve to exclude him from having any real accountability, responsibility or sacrifice. That IS having your cake and eating it too.

Palla's observation with regards to his severe anxiety and Hurt llamas noting mine as well leads me to truly see the addiction patterns that we both established together. Interestingly he stated that if I did not pick up the phone this time around he didn't know what that would do to him. He alluded to the fact that it would send him spiraling out of control. The normal state for him which I noted is always having this feeling of being out of control therefore he has to do things specifically in order to desperately gain that control.

It appears his general state of being while interpreting everything spoken and unspoken, done or not done, answered or not answered has a flight or fight automatic response attached to it as Palla has so wisely stated. I see this in how he handles what he thinks is possibly rejection or anything. I knew that in his head he was taking note of how long it was that I did not respond. He was keeping track and knew I was home therefore he knew I was avoiding him. This literally sent him to the edge and finally by Monday he waited to see my you tube coming online which was the indicator that I was now home from my 12 hour shift. It was literally within 5 minutes of putting my you tube playlist on that he called me. Yes this was anxiety and almost near panic.

The first thing he asked me was "why don't you want to talk to me" Why did you say good-bye? Why did you not answer the emails? Why did you not pick up the phone when I called you because I knew you were up? Do you not feel the agony when we separate? Can you really live your life without me in it? And then repeat again "why don't you want to talk to me?". I think I was speechless for a few minutes and in that time that is all he kept asking me.

The 4 hour conversation was indeed not a conversation but some form of harm reduction or re-establishment of the perpetuated dysfunction that essentially keeps me in a very special little prison that only he gets to have access to, while he comfortably remains in the prison that is his safety and perpetuity as Palla has plainly stated. Yes he does not desire to change anything but rather just have his crying wing all to himself selfishly while under the guise of loving me and needing me. Yet too much of my love for too long a period drives him away overwhelming him and forcing him to feel oppressed and like Pall stated suffocated.

This was evident when at the end he was pulling away completely confused because I made him doubt the things that he thought he was seeing. I made him question his version of reality with enough evidence that the opposite truth was possibly the answer. The opposite truth being that he creates the distortion in order to not have to face the love he actually is feeling making him vulnerable and afraid. At the end of the 4 hours he was spent, more confused, more raw and utterly exhausted.

He said "can we start by building new bridges one at a time? Can we take this one step at a time?" At which point I could feel his fear resurfacing for the love I made plain for him to see. He said in leaving off "Let's be faithful then. I'm glad to hear your voice and I will call you very soon". At which point I alluded to the fact that the 'very soon' comment made me feel like I was being kept hanging again on his terms, to which he responded Wednesday night". End call. He had also reached his limit on all the symptoms I was explaining to him while making reference to his behaviors. I never mentioned

BPD or anything specific.

So now we return to him pulling away for a day or two only for him to boomerang back to me.

Does that not make me his captive? Round and round and round we go only we keep stopping at the very place we never started.

I'm really not okay with any of this and I am through this understanding how lethal all of this truly is, but I am not there yet. The already existing wounds that I have been striving desperately to heal from have re-opened and now I've returned to a bleeding mess.

I at this point could use some kryptonite but I understand that first I need to rest and try not to process under this exhaustion. I am not losing sight of the abuse factor and if anything this latest 'attack' is serving a purpose that is yet unfolding for my betterment even if I currently seem like I've landed right in the middle of his magical spell.

I do believe he means what he tells me. I do believe he loves me. I do believe he is truly trying in the only way he knows how to but I do also believe that this torture will never end unless I stop it because I know he won't. I know he will do everything to keep me bound to him because I am the balance and center that he is missing.

PatientandClear is completely correct in stating that he is offering to be still mine intimately without the commitment, responsibility, accountability or sacrifice. In effect just as you said it Patient he wants to be with me but without being with me. For him this works perfectly as it is not too close but not too far. It is safe and reassuring allowing him the option of being physically there when he feels strong enough to make that type of connection with me without any form of commitment or change.

So now that we have established that this is the perfect scenario for this underdeveloped child as Hurt llama stated, we can also establish that for me it is a non-existent relationship which essentially just serves him while I remain the bonded servant slave. There is no happiness here and there is nothing to foster, grow or nurture in a reciprocal sharing.  

I want to reflect on all the great wisdom and knowledge that has been shared in hopes of all of you helping me through this. There is so much there and in truth I am ever grateful to all of you.

I know I don't want this and like Laelle, Hurt, Maria, Pallav, Monty, Patient, Christina and delgato have said this isn't living and I deserve better. I know I have screwed up and might again a couple of more times until I finally just do what it is I have to do and that is finish the book. I think in many ways my relapse is more about visiting the cemetery for the last time. Something about this is giving me strength and confirmation of what it is that I already know and even though it appears to be the reverse I think just maybe I have to do this before I finally do truly say good-bye.  

Yet another contradiction but I can see how all of this is in a way necessary for me. It isn't what I wanted because I was getting through with the n/c but even so this is serving a purpose. I am overwhelmed by all your responses and deeply thankful to you all.

I know I have a long way to go but I have to believe that I'm getting there. Sorry for the long response considering how exhausted I am, it surprises me that I wrote this all.

Fromhealtoheal what you just posted was amazing and I needed to see it that way. Much to think about with everything everyone has written here.

Hey CW,

Your process is your process and all the words I say or anyone else can only make just so much difference. It was the same for me and probably most of us.

It was suggested here for me to go NC before I was ready. I just couldn't do it and I didn't know exactly why.

As Green Mango posted recently as well as the thread I pm'd you says, there's more to no contact than disappearing, which is itself an aggressive act.

Ultimately and eventually it's an organic act.

I'll put down the sword down and not slay any dragons for a few hours. All this War is killing my back anyway... . lol

Just remember, you have the power with you at all times.

Just click your heels together... .  

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooM-RGUTe2E

My CW friend  ... . you know how much I care and understand. And I know you want and need honest feedback.

I have trouble reading your post to be honest, I can only read a couple of his sentences at a time before reading something else and coming back to it. It sounds like brainwashing to me but I also sense your own wanting to 'have your cake' and eat it too.

I think you have known for a long time exactly what you had and you invested and played along (maybe) mitigating your 'risk' (as I did) by using your powers to play with his mind in a way he played with your mind. And around and around it goes.


CW, is it possible in some ways you got exactly what you wanted?

I've been in the exact place and well, maybe I will be again. For all my warrior words, I am vulnerable to even a child because I supplied that child powerful weapons of mass destruction.

Easier to invent a nuclear device than to disarm and dismantle.

Cryingwings

I did not know that he had physically hurt you. I know you are exhausted right now but i am concerned for your safety and I think that has to come first which is why I write this now. It changes my perspective about contact. Is there a local domestic violence organisation you can talk to?

Please don't see him under any circumstances. He sounds very unstable. I don't doubt he has very deep feelings for you and that you don't want to do anything to upset him. But I don't think contact with him is safe. He is stalking you.

Please keep posting here.

My ex never hurt me but I was scared when he completely dysregulated last year and I contacted the police who were great (UK). I changed my locks too. With hindsight maybe I over reacted but he was pretty crazy back then. He sent me pictures of his friend and texts of what his friend was offering to do to 'sort out' his ex wife. It was totally bizarre and made no sense.

Please put your safety first.

Thank you Maria for your concern. That incident occurred one year ago and has traumatized him. To this day that is what makes him terrified to love me. I think the incident literally magnified his fears and emotional dis-regulatity. I'm fighting the bond which feels psychic and completely empathic just to try and break free from the destructive pain cycle of not really being able to be together but yet not being able to be apart. I need to find a way through this and I know I will just not today and maybe not tomorrow but hopefully soon. I can't cope with this anymore, its ripping me apart. Loving him feels like its killing me and I don't ever remember feeling this much pain ever especially with Love. I'm in agony when I'm with him and I am in agony when I'm not with him. This is too much. I can't handle loving him anymore.

I'm safe however because he lives very far from me.

Thank you for such kind concern.  

The hopelessness of it all is likened to a tsunami that you have absolutely not power to thwart. According to the conversation we had last night you would think there was hope and a new path set. There is no new path... .  that is an illusion. I sit here crying because the stark reality pummels me even though we spoke in a hope and in a true desire to cling to each other. It is not so. I'm writing this because other's need to know the dire difference between a desperate hope and what both parties truly suffer and feel after the connection.

That is to say that after he hung up the phone... . and we went our separate ways... .  I could feel his fears and demons over riding any progress made to only emphasize everything he deemed fit to sabotage based on re-living the things that for him were deal breakers. Nothing I said even thought it appeared that progress was made helped. I know that because I sit here feeling that, feeling him and his isolation. There is no hope. He will continue to perpetuate his reality which will ensure that he is cut off from any true love.

I am alone... .  and he is cutting me off as I write this. I can feel it. I know it... .  and nothing I can do or say can change it because his illness is greater than any truth or any Love, no matter how strong.

Tomorrow he will call me as he promised. He will have resigned himself once again to his isolated prison. Again my heart will be broken but I know that I can't keep enduring this over and over again. I will ask him to free me if he truly loves me and in this way I will sever what I need to in order for me to move on.

The 4 hour conversation last night would have made anyone believe differently. He wanted to try again and was desperate for it but I can feel him and his great battle. I can feel that he cannot allow himself to believe or trust no matter how much he loves me. This is a reality that I feel in connection with him, the only man I have ever been connected to in this way. I feel him... .  feel his thoughts... .  his heart and although this may be inexplicable it is true. When I post tomorrow night I can only say that it will be confirming the very thing I speak of in this post.

Perhaps that will serve in some way to help others. I don't know... .  the pain is too great and regardless of his illness he is one of the most beautiful souls I have ever known or ever will know.

It is what it is... .  and I don't believe or at least I don't feel that my heart will ever properly get over him. He was my One and only, only it could never be. Have to let go... .  because there is no other option. I can't see another way because there is torture insides every aspect of this. The thought of being friends is equally an illusion that I know he is clinging to. It cannot be because in the center of this all is far too much love, jealousy and pain.

In the end ... .  there can only be a good-bye and judging by our conversation last night this sounds the reverse of everything we spoke about. But the tears that stream from me are because I know the truth regardless of the fantasy.

God give me strength. Truth really does hurt more than I can contain in my body.

I tried to correct the above version but something went wrong so I'll just post the corrections here: Apologies for the trouble.


The hopelessness of it all is likened to a tsunami that you have absolutely no power to thwart. According to the conversation we had last night you would think there was hope and a new path set. You would think that we were resolute upon a new 'faithful' avenue as he put it. "Let's be faithful now and build new bridges". He said to me "be faithful... .  I don't want a world without you".

There is no new path... .  that is an illusion. I sit here crying because the stark reality pummels me even though we spoke in a hope and in a true desire to cling to each other. We can't beat these odds because an ant cannot defeat an elephant that tramples it. It cannot be so no matter the desperation in both parties. Truth prevails and both "FEEL" what that truth is.  I'm writing this because others need to know the dire difference between a desperate hope and what both parties truly suffer and feel after the connection. The desperate hope and the reality are two different things and neither can meet ever in the middle.

I feel my Spartan even after we made so many advances... .  or so I thought. That is false and I can FEEL it. The reality is that it cannot be so. This torture is never ending... .  and I have had too much. The patterns repeat themselves like clockwork and I am left victim and Lover. Victim Lover. I can't wait forever... .  for something that will never change or heal. In his process I am being destroyed and not because he wants to hurt me but because he can't help it. He can't help it or protect me from it. I see the torture in his eyes and in his honesty for all its confusion. He is in agony and what is worse his agony is only made a far worse burden knowing what he is doing to me. Yet he can't help himself. I'm raw and I know there is only a good-bye. He must let me go because I am too linked inside him unless he frees me.

After he hung up the phone... . and we went our separate ways... .  I could feel his fears and demons over riding any progress made, plaguing him and magnifying the same fears to kill any progress made. Everything he deemed fit before hand to sabotage our love was relived after our 4 hour conversation, making them deal breakers once again. Nothing I said even thought it appeared that progress was made helped. I know that because I sit here feeling that, feeling him and his isolation. There is no hope. He will continue to perpetuate his reality which will ensure that he is cut off from any true love. I know it's a hard thing to believe but I can feel him and I can feel his thoughts. Perhaps that is a testimony to how intimately we have been entwined because it was always that way since the beginning. Tomorrow's call will confirm what I have written here.

I am alone sitting here a world apart from him... . and I can feel he is cutting me off as I write this. I can feel it literally. He is making justifications and returning to his paranoid version of reality. I know it... .  and I feel it... .  and nothing I can do or say can change that because his illness is greater than any truth or any Love, no matter how strong.

Tomorrow he will call me as he promised. He will have resigned himself once again to his isolated prison. Again my heart will be broken but I know that I can't keep enduring this over and over again. I will ask him to free me if he truly loves me and in this way I will sever what I need to in order for me to move on.

The 4 hour conversation last night would have made anyone believe differently. They would have had false hope but I've been there before with him. I know he wanted to try again and was desperate for it but I can feel him and his great battle. I can feel that he cannot allow himself to believe or trust no matter how much he loves me. This is a reality that I feel in connection with him, the only man I have ever been connected to in this way. I feel him... .  feel his thoughts... .  his heart and although this may be inexplicable it is true. When I post tomorrow night I can only say that it will be confirming the very thing I speak of in this post.

Perhaps that will serve in some way to help others. I don't know... .  the pain is too great and regardless of his illness he is one of the most beautiful souls I have ever known or ever will know.

It is what it is... .  and I don't believe or at least I don't feel that my heart will ever properly get over him. He was my One and only, only it could never be. Have to let go... .  because there is no other option. I can't see another way because there is torture inside every aspect of this. The thought of being friends is equally an illusion that I know he is clinging to. It cannot be because in the center of this all is far too much love, jealousy and pain. In the center of wanting to be friends for his protection he will continue to fight his desires for me and so the punishment will follow as it always does.

In the end ... .  there can only be a good-bye and judging by our conversation last night this sounds the reverse of everything we spoke about. But the tears that stream from me are because I know the truth regardless of the fantasy. I am crying without wanting to cry... .  it is simply a response that I'm not in control of. That means that everything I am feeling is true and can't deny it even though I am desperate to believe the opposite.

God give me strength. Truth really does hurt more than I can contain in my body. I am helpless and know nothing I do can help him or help him to help us. Nothing. It is a barren waste land where life doesn't stand a chance. I have to let go and let time heal me, if it can.

I'm not certain that it can but I am a victim either way and have no choice it seems.

Just tears.

Cryingwings

You are accepting the unbearable reality of Borderline Personality Disorder. It is impossible to love them and impossible to leave. But leaving saves you when they do not want to save themselves.

Acceptance hurts more than anything. But it moves you forward. The only way out is through. Time will help you, I promise. We are with you 

Hi Crying; hope you're feeling a little better?

I feel for you, caught up emotionally and trying to make sense of the nonsensical.  The disorder will never make sense to those of us who aren't disordered, and trying to make sense of it just pulls us down the rabbit hole.

A BPD's need to attach is a matter of life or death to them, because they do not have a fully formed personality, are not whole, so need someone else to 'complete' them.  So they're extremely good at it, and those hooks get all the way in to our psyche and our heart.

No amount of love or reason can fix him.  You cannot fix him.  The best thing you can do is save yourself, you know this, and detaching hurts like hell.  You mentioned he lives far away, so did mine, and that can help.  The folks on this board care and understand, and we're here, and it might be better to find someone live where you are to be with you and help you walk this path; it's hardest in the beginning.  I went to Vegas a week after we split, because I just had to get the hell out; it worked temporarily, and the hangover sucked.  But hey, whatever it takes; you know the cycle with him will just repeat indefinitely, so maybe you doing something radically different is what it will take.  Please keep us posted.

So well said and obviously important for all of us to remember. I needed it too.

CW, asking him to let you go, pleading with him that way is not something he is able to do.You can't fix him. Asking him to let you go is like asking him to kill himself. You are not responsible for him.

This stuff obviously is classic patterns of all sorts of addictive behavior from both of you. it's brutally hard to unwind it.

There is no shame in seeing a specialist in trauma or a good therapist to help support you. Medication shouldn't be ruled out if you are feeling as you can't stop.

More support is better from those around you. Do you have Al Anon near you?

I'm sorry to be reading this. Sent you some information via PM.

What happened to my Warrior friend?

Joke! We all get hit hard and we help each other up!

I'm here... .  we all are for you. 

Thank you so much all of you. I feel like I was hit hard last night and feel a bit clearer. I was reflecting since speaking with him Monday night that this is exactly what is meant by toxicity and as you stated it gets in your psyche which is self-destructive. Maybe I was purging a part of me in preparation because that is how it feels.

The way you explain their need to attach due to a missing core explains his desperation and that can no longer be my problem as this whole thing is simply just crazy toxic. I know I had a relapse which triggered me due to my past traumatic experiences causing the obscurity of reality. Simply he triggers me and is triggering me even more so the deeper this co-dependent  dys-function goes. 

Thank you my dear friend Hurt llama for pointing those things out that are all true about my response in addiction co-dependance. I am seeing a counselor and my doctor. My entire past coupled with my ex is a dangerous brew. The combination is too volatile and loaded triggering all my past traumas. This I feel I am discovering more and more as I see the devolution and true nature of the r/s and illness not excluding my own issues that are related to my past traumas. I am truly seeing just how toxic this all really is and how dangerous it is for me.

All the advice and everything I have read is a huge help. I feel like I have had a crash course in this all because I spent the better part of the past two years trying to figure out what he was suffering from and what the actual reality was between our dynamic. We enabled each other because we are both suffering different dys-functions. Mine is related to my past traumas and his to the disorder. Combined it is simply lethal essentially destroying us both. 

I actually feel some relief and the advice to perhaps do something entirely different in the detachment is a great one. The shift and pre-occupation with new stimuli is a good diversion. In many ways I see it would have been easier to continue the n/c.

Thank you everyone truly. 

That's so great CW! 

You have a strong will and you keep coming back to doing the right things for yourself, in spite of the tremendous almost gravitational pull we all seem to face. I can't believe I feel it towards my ex, even after all I have posted and done.

I"ve posted several times the analogy of breaking our addictions and the relationship with BPD partners as living in Crazy Land and being on a ride that makes us sick... . and when it stops, we need to get back on for more. I guess this really is like heroin addiction. It's the worst.

You sound much better today and I'm glad to see you doing the right things to help yourself.

CryingWings i can see you are working things through in your writings. this is good! i know book recommendations are a long shot, but i like to give them when the thought surfaces--i read this book a year ago just prior to breaking up, it's written by one of the most talented horse trainers alive. the author is a woman who uncovered secrets about her past abusive r/s with her husband through working with abused horses. i believe she started the first (or one of the first) equine therapy centers, treating mostly women suffering from abusive relationships. i LOVED this book and feel it can give you a clearer picture of why you feel physically sick sometimes when dealing with the ex... .  a horse would know this right away :)

The Tao of Equus: A Woman's Journey of Healing and Transformation through the Way of the Horse

www.amazon.com/Tao-Equus-Journey-Healing-Transformation/dp/1577314204

Thank you so much Goldy. I do believe I am that horse judging by my past trauma and this triggering r/s experience. It makes a strange sort of sense that I am only now discovering. My past made me the perfect partner in some ways and perhaps that is where I will find healing in all of this. I will most definitely be reading that book.   

patientandclear, you have just given me a lightbulb moment here.

Thank you.

Now my ex's actions and words suddenly makes a whole new kind of sense.

Now his "We're more than friends, we ARE MORE!" (after me saying that there is no such things as more than friends, you either love someone like "that" or you do not)  suddenly makes sense.

And I think back to something he said during a very honest and lucid conversation.

"I don't know what I have done to deserve you as my... .  what ever we are. As my Sweets. But I am so glad I have you and I don't wanna lose you."

And now, for the first time in 8 months, I miss him. I miss him so deep in the core of my soul that my body literally hurts. I have stayed out of touch, I have stayed off the grid, I have fallen off the radar. I have taken away all his options of getting any information about me from anyone. I have ruminated, I have growled, I have questioned and I have been angry. But until now, right this moment, I have not grieved.

Thank you for giving me words that let me grieve the loss, the death of our dreams, everything.

Survived Love -- I've felt, and feel, exactly as you wrote above.     What's really awful is that even with understanding and compassion, our pwBPD are afraid of us.  And their defenses and reactions to that do incredible damage, unless we can completely detach emotionally, in which case, we don't have much left of the connection that originally made all of this seem worthwhile.

I hate BPD.

ME TOO!  :'(