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Grey Kitty - you just saved me stepping on a landmine I am sure!  You are correct... .  giving him a self-help book would definitely be perceived as an invalidating act.  When I first thought of it - that notion crossed my mind but for some reason I forgot about the in[url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation)[/b][/url] aspect.  

I'll probably buy the other book for myself and I'll check out the mindfulness book for him.

As for limiting the verbal abuse, I really struggle here.  One of my husband's biggest complaints is that I don't listen to him or pay attention to his needs.  So he starts off explaining why what I do doesn't work for him and as he talks it turns into verbal abuse.  If I just walk about of the room when he's talking I feel like he will say that I am once again ignoring him.  I guess I probably need to get better at listening to him PERIOD.  I tend to block because there is so much negativity.  So how did you set the verbal abuse boundary?  I'm love the fact that there are people on these boards that have been successful with this.  Tell me your secrets Jedi Master!

There is a difference between listening and agreeing.

Validation is all about showing that you hear him and understand what he is feeling. You don't have to agree with what he says to validate that you understand his feelings.

In this case, he really feels that you don't listen to him or pay attention to him. His FEELINGS are real here, whether this is true or not. He genuinely feels hurt by this, that is real too. (All of this would apply to a healthy person or a pwBPD)

When he's feeling hurt, he starts to verbally attack you. This is where the boundary comes in:

Here's my recommendation for you: Start with the boundary.

Enforcing it with "I" statements is very helpful. When the criticism of you starts, you can say "I cannot handle this verbal abuse now." or "I need can't deal with this argument" or something like that. (You are saying something about your feelings instead of about his behavior, which is harder for him to argue/disagree with. Of course he can and likely will try, especially at first)

As a bonus tip, try saying that you will go away for a fixed period of time and honor it. The fear of abandonment can be triggered by just leaving. If they know it is only for a fixed time, it is easier to deal with. If you do this, STICK TO IT. Come back when you say you will. If the verbal abuse resumes, you can leave again; I'd recommend doing it for a longer time the next time, since it wasn't long enough for him to calm down.

The crux of this is that his feelings are real--but YOU don't do either of you any good by staying around and letting him berate you. It is an unhealthy coping mechanism for him, and it beats down your self-worth... .  lose-lose. You cannot stop him from talking about how bad you are, but you can stop subjecting yourself to it.

Read more about this:

How to take a time out (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84942.0)

Part two... .  work on validating him. Note that you can do this at any time, not just when he is getting dysregulated. It is much easier and much more effective when he isn't. Sometimes it can prevent the dysregulated episode.

I'm still working on validation--I think it could be a life-work for me, as I don't feel like a natural at it... .  and I know it works very well with everybody in my life, BPD or not. We've got a workshop on that too:

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation)

One last bit--If I didn't say it before, mindfulness practice isn't just for him. I highly recommend it for you. Especially because you can simply choose to do it yourself, whereas you cannot make him do anything!

Hope this helps!

GK

Sticking to working on yourself = great idea.  I wouldn't lose hope about the r/s though if both people don't want to do the work.  There are many people on this board who are having good outcomes even though their BPD is not recovering.  The reason is, it takes two for a tug of war.  If you get really good at not picking up the rope when the BPD is dangling it in your face, yes the BPD will continue to dysregulate and rage however the difference is you will not be engaging them in the same way and so the explosive, intensely emotional conflict is greatly reduced.  

The hard part is getting to a healthier place and practicing techniques like mindfulness, etc. so that you can make good choices when your buttons are pushed.  Oooh sometimes it's so tempting to tell them where to get off!  But it is possible to have a manageable r/s with an emotional wreck - depending how hard *you* are willing to work!

One postscript to that my description:

Don't get hung up on convincing your H that he is being verbally abusive. This is not a topic for debate. If you aren't comfortable with the conversation, just get yourself out of it, as gently and as quickly as you can. (And if you have to choose, pick quick over gentle)

There were times I nearly ran out the door saying "I need to go away. If I stick around any longer, I will say something that I'll regret"

GK

This is good stuff Grey Kitty.  I'm looking forward to trying it.  The only challenge for me is that I have a little boy and I am the primary caregiver... .  so do I shuttle him out of the house with me?  Interesting challenge.

You will probably get better advice from a parent than from me on that... .  but I would choose based on what would be better for the boy.

Does your H take things out on the boy? I wouldn't leave him to be an alternative target for the abuse/criticism.

Pulling him out on short notice could be disruptive... .  or could be a small adventure depending on how you play it.

If you can get away from the verbal abuse by just leaving the room, not the house, that simplifies things.

I am so far fortunate that my husband never takes things out on our son.  Only me.  Leaving the house usually triggers strong abandonment feelings in my husband (even when I say that I will be back in an hour).  I try not to leave the house unless I feel physically threatened.  Last time that I did it actually led to conflict in the garage (my husband took my wallet and when I asked for it back he scared the living hell out of me). 

This weekend instead of just leaving the house or leaving the room when my husband was on edge and taking it out on me - I went out and worked in the garden the two times that he got verbally abusive.  It did work.  On Saturday he joined me in the garden about an hour later.  On Sunday he asked if I could come back into the house to do something with him.  He was not abusive after he rejoined me.

On Saturday morning at breakfast while he was berating me for something really minor (I only bought 1 bag of large pancake mix instead of 2)... .  I realized that I have absolutely no idea how to protect myself anymore.  No idea how to even start setting boundaries.  I have become so conditioned to taking verbal abuse like a martyr.  Its crazy.  To be fair, I think I conditioned into this with my BPD mother as a child and my husband just continues to push boundaries of acceptable behavior.   

Anyway, our weekday mornings are particularly bad before he heads off to work.  That will be the first place I look to start.  Not sure where to start by at least I know that that is the first situation that I need to deal with.

  For some reason, I find it almost heartbreaking to hear how much you do just accept the verbal (and possibly worse!) abuse.

FYI, taking your wallet and keeping it from you to prevent you from leaving likely meets the legal definition of domestic violence. Since things HAVE escalated to that level in the past, I recommend you read more about it for your safety!

TOOLS: Domestic Violence Against Women (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0)

Now that I've said that, I'm going to address the situation you DO have, not the one you might have:


|iiii Seeing your role in it is step zero--now you know where to take the first step!

|iiii I want to remind you what enforcing a boundary really is, and what it is not. It is not telling him that he cannot do "X". That is a rule, and he will (likely) continue to break it. A boundary is in the form of "If he does X, I will do Y to protect myself". He can choose whether to do X or not. But if he does X, YOU choose to do Y, and he has absolutely no choice in the matter. The way that you are asserting your own power in this makes such a difference!

I also want to point out that when you stay and listen to his verbal abuse it is bad for both of you. You, because it tears you down and makes you feel like you deserve it. Him, because this is a terrible way for him to cope with his own uncomfortable feelings, by (mentally) putting them on you, then yelling at you for it.

He needs better coping mechanisms than that... .  and as long as you let him use this one, he will continue. You can't tell him how to cope differently, or force him to do something better... .  but you can simply take this option away from him by not being there to receive the verbal abuse.

So how to do you do it? We have a workshop here on How to take a time out (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84942.0), and I recommend you read it for ideas and inspiration.

If you relate the whole conversation of one of those weekday mornings, we could identify places where you might try changing your response... .  at this point I'm guessing how things go.

If you are completely overwhelmed and not sure what to do, I remember one member here writing that she would just go to the bathroom so she had a minute to calm herself down and think about what was next.

Are you feeling ready to start on it and do something different tomorrow morning?

When H gets verbally abusive or I feel like he is escalating that way, I usually take our son (11 mo.) and say, "come on lil guy, let's go for a walk" or whatever.  Usually 30 - 60 min is all we need for H's emotions to come back down out of the stratosphere.  I think it's probably beneficial to our boy to see us handle situations like that in a healthy way.  Though it's tough, I'm careful to never say anything negative about his dad as we're heading out the door, because I don't want to be passive agressive, and I also think that has the potential to set H off even more.

I imagine if DS ever asks why we're going on a walk or whatever I'll probably just say something like, "daddy just needs a little time to himself" or something like that.  It's much easier if I can see the signs of escalation and head out before he blows up.

Thanks for this reminder.  To be honest - I keep wondering.  Wondering if I had to stand up to him as part of this whole process.  I'm glad to hear that its not going into a power struggle because I will LOSE every time.  I keep wondering as he's going on and on about how horrible I am... .  why can't you just speak up.  Don't be so silly... .  and yet I just sit there.  His dad says that because I don't say anything... .  he thinks that I am not listening and don't care.


Agree wholeheartedly.  That is why I take so much responsibility for letting him get this far down the path.  Clearly I am just as unhealthy as he is.  Now at one point in our relationship I stood up and said -- I love you but I can't take this... .  and I moved out for a while.  We didn't break up... .  I moved just up the road.  The place where I fell down is when he asked me to come back - he explained all the horrible things that I do and I promised that I would do better.  The problem is that I can see where he is right in SOO many ways about how I manage my life poorly (forgetting everything under the sun, not planning in advance well, being very disorganized).  He's OCD as well so takes everything to the extreme (needs his sandwich to be cut the same way every time). So ying and yang aren't meshing some days.


I probably can't do a whole conversation but a typical morning mess might go like this:

Me:  Husband - what do you want for breakfast this morning.

Him:  Food.  Like every other day.  Stop asking stupid questions.

Me:  What kind of food?

Him:  I don't care.

So I bring in eggs and toast and bacon.

Him:  Typical.  I can't believe that you are serving me the same thing for the 100th time.  You have absolutely no imagination and no creativity.  It is clear that you don't listen to me either.  You are a human doing rather than a human being.  You have absolutely no awareness about anything in your life.  No wonder you have no friends and no relationships.  The only thing that you care about is that stupid job of yours.  You should go quit and waitress and learn what it is like to live like a real person instead of putting all of your energy into that stupid job.  Also, You know I can't eat gluten and that it messes me up for days.  No wonder I can't get back on my feet with you messing everything up all the time.  I'm sick and I can't even get 3 proper meals a day.

Me:  (insert radio silence because I don't want to trigger him)  He gets upset if I serve the same gluten free stuff every day.

Fast forward --

Him:  Why haven't you turned the lights on in the house.  I have told you a 1,000 times to turn the lights on when you come out.  Next time I will break everything on this table.

Him:  Why didn't you put an icepack into my lunch.

Me:  Because you told me not to. 

Him:  I told you not to when it was -30 outside.  Now its 80 and everything in my lunch is hot.  You are the biggest idiot I have ever met.  It blows my mind that you are so successful in your career.  If you put half the energy into your home and me as you do into raising that baby and doing that job, our lives would be good... .  but for 10 years I tell you the same things over and over again and its obvious that you don't give a s*** about me.  You are an idiot with no common sense or self awareness.

Him:  I'd ask you to help me out to the car with my stuff but you would mess that up so I'll just do it myself.  If you want to help me in the mornings - do it right.  Its easier for me to do it myself.

Door slams.  Screeching tires out of the driveway.


Yup - let's do it.  And thank you for your care and concern.  I'm really ready to live another way... .  I just don't know how.  Oddly enough I have been to a competent therapist and he's far more focused on my husband than me.  I come off as very high functional because of my professional career and it masks a lot of the real underlying issues.

I'll check out the other links.  Thank you.  And sorry for the NOVEL.  Kind of hard to relay a conversation without a bit of writing

Hmm... .  those breakfast conversations really suck. I might try a couple options:

"H, would you like bacon and eggs for breakfast?" (or whatever you plan to cook)

or taking it even a step further... .  

"H, I'm going to have bacon and eggs for breakfast. Would you like me to cook you some too?"

(Instead of the open question he doesn't answer then blames you for doing the wrong thing)

When the diatribe starts, I would say "I'm not going to sit here and listen to verbal abuse." and pick up my plate, and move into another room out of earshot.

(That would be you enforcing a boundary of not accepting verbal abuse!)

The other thing I might consider doing is having a conversation sometime other than breakfast time... .  and informing him that if he wants to criticize your cooking, you won't cook for him anymore. (But read the workshop on S.E.T. before you do that.)

How does this sound to you?

Just to offer an alternative, I've found that questions (especially open-ended ones like "what would you like?" really raise my dBPDh's anxiety and it usually manifests as anger, sometimes as a rage.  I decided to try not asking him about things and it's been working beautifully.  For example, on the weekends when I'm making breakfast I will simply make him eggs and bacon if I feel like it, or sometimes I don't.  What's weird is, I think he prefers it this way!  I never would've guessed that (since it's not how I operate), but my best guess is that he feels so much pressure on him when questions are asked and I'm looking at him waiting for an answer - when life just happens and he has to adapt, that pressure is no longer there.

Your H sounds much different than mine, but I thought I'd throw that out there anyway.  If I was in your situation, I might try it anyway because if he's going to get abusive anyway, at least you wouldn't have to spend the energy asking questions and making him lunch, etc.  Boundaries are always great to enforce, and I agree that those convo's really suck.   

Interestingly enough I didn't read your response until this morning Grey Kitty... .  

But I happened to use that tactic anyway.  Husband, would you like Granola with berries for breakfast this morning.  He grunted YES and we got on with our day.  He managed to leave the house without verbal abuse or door slamming.  YAY. 

He didn't like what I made him for lunch but (YAY) took it anyway and gave some acceptable alternatives for other days.

I agree that the open ended questions put too much pressure on him.  He's not a morning person and he starts work at 6am lots of days so he has a hard time getting going.  Lizzie, I appreciate the thought on not giving him options.  We tried that for a while and it didn't work.  Made him feel like I didn't care about him and didn't communicate with him. 

Some days are better than others.


  One question though.  Do I have to call it verbal abuse.  We have talked about it as abuse before and that seems to trigger him.  Can I just say "Husband I am not comfortable with you speaking to me like this?"

Thanks again for the great reinforcement.  Its amazing how support from people you don't even know... .  can make a situation easier.

|iiii Hooray for little victories! Good job on your part!

There is no need to mention verbal abuse, especially if triggers him. He's already somewhat triggered, making it worse is the last thing you want to do!

For me, saying something about why I'm leaving, like "I am not comfortable with this conversation" works.

Some people get up and leave without a comment, but I don't like doing it that way., especially because everybody makes up a story about the reasons under those circumstances... .  and a pwBPD will often make up a rather toxic/destructive story

The result is what matters--removing yourself from the situation, and not having to listen to his verbal abuse.


In my case, when things were getting really bad between my wife and myself, she was searching on her own and found a reference to a "CompassionPower" workshop for couples having a lot of conflict... .  and when she read the material, she noticed that SHE was being verbally/emotionally abusive to me. To this day, she gets upset at the thought of a BPD label, but she fairly early on accepted that her behavior toward me was abusive. I do count myself lucky that she had that much self-awareness and was able to work on her issues... .  many here don't have a partner with that capacity... .  that is where my 'comfort' with mentioning verbal abuse came from.

Thanks for that Grey Kitty.

Interestingly enough when my husband is in a good place he knows that his behavior toward me during the outbursts is wrong and he'll even call them abuse.  He grew up in an abusive home and he'll even comment how he scares himself at times because he is worse than his dad was. 

He actually has a high level of self awareness.  As I mentioned my mother is a high functioning BPD.  About 7 yrs ago, she and I were going through a lot and I went to a therapist who suggested BPD.  I had a printout of it and brought it home.  My husband was going through a bad personal situation at the time (ironically he was functioning very well) but he was seeing a therapist regularly.  He read the printout and said oh my gosh wife... .  that describes ME!  He took the printout to the therapist who said DEFINITELY NOT - I think that you are Bipolar (he's definitely NOT).  I want to throttle that therapist because my husband diligently went to him for a year and all he told him was SORRY THAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH THIS BUT YOU JUST HAVE TO AND YOU'LL PROBABLY NEVER GET BETTER.  What horrible damage that stupid therapist did!

Anyway, when he's complaining about me - any mention of verbal abuse or aggressive behavior makes him worse.  He starts to believe in his own head that I have caused him to act this way.  I have tried so many times to lay down a boundary verbally.  Clearly I wasn't doing it correctly for our situation.  I thought that it was about making them aware of the boundary and then standing my ground.  I'm relieved that its not... .  he sees laying now of verbal boundaries as an invitation to fly right through them.  I think saying "I'm not comfortable with the conversation and then moving out of the room might work better."

Well let's see what tomorrow brings.  The good news is that he just started a healthy job that he is really enjoying.  I notice when he works - he does better.

Another bad morning this morning.  He woke up at 4 am and could get back to sleep so by 5:30 (when he wakes up) he was on edge.

I triggered him because he was standing in the middle of the kitchen in front of the refrigerator and I was trying to finish up getting everything ready.  I said EXCUSE ME.  Then he went off that I am the rudest person that he knows that I should say EXCUSE ME I NEED TO GET TO THE REFRIGERATOR.  I was silly enough to share a situation at work with him last night.  I work someplace where people are really sensitive and I am a 'Let's get this done' kind of person.  Occasionally I upset people.  Its not a major issue.  My boss says that he likes it because at least I get the job done.  Anyway I was sharing with him that the work environment here in Canada is so different from the US.  People are much more sensitive.

Well he unleashed that on me this morning.  Once again telling me that I am rude and inconsiderate and I have no friends and no life because of this.  I'm really social and have always had a crowd around me before I met my husband.  I struggle with him because

* he cancels plans when they don't suit

* he arbitrarily decides that he doesn't like people

I now find it easier to just make friends with people that he already associates with (for example if he makes friends with the husband, I work to like and make friends with the wife)

He then started on how he didn't understand how it takes me an hour to make 1 sandwich.  So... .  he normally leaves a half an hour after he gets up.  In that time I take the dogs out, if the baby wakes up I change him and give him a bottle, I make his breakfast (this morning bacon and pancakes), make his lunch, give him a protein shake and make him a cup of coffee to go.

He left the house saying that he really hates me.

So why I didn't I walk away while he was expressing all this hatred and criticism.  At least I got to the bottom of it this morning... .  he had me cornered because I was trying to finish his lunch.  I didn't want him to storm off without his lunch.  I don't walk away from the verbal abuse because I am normally right in the middle of finishing something. 

Do you feel good about yourself taking care of his needs (breakfast AND lunch) while he's berating you?

It is your choice--this morning you could have just left the kitchen instead.

NO!  I really hate it.  I feel like I should give him fair warning when he's in a good place that if I am in the middle of fixing him breakfast or lunch and he starts in on me then I will abandon whatever I am doing and leave.  Is this a good idea to give him advance warning? 

For "deal-breaker" boundaries, for example, "I will not be in a relationship with somebody who cheats on me." or "I will not stay in a relationship with you unless you are getting treatment",  I wouldn't feel good about enforcement out of the blue.

You can enforce boundaries with prior warning or without it. Even if you don't explain, he will catch on pretty quickly... .  especially if you are consistent. When the consequences are smaller (lunch and breakfast, in this case), I don't think notification is critical... .  do whatever feels right or whatever feels possible.

If you do decide to notify* him, I don't recommend specifically mentioning breakfast, even if that time of day is the most common problem time.

I would just say that I'm not going to remain present when he is (insert your choice of verb here... .  ) criticizing, verbally abusing.

*notify, NOT discuss, NOT negotiate. This is YOUR boundary. YOU have the power to enforce it. He has only one choice in this matter--to start verbally abusing you or not to do so. The consequence of you departing is not something you should give him any input on!

Then be absolutely as consistent as you can be enforcing this boundary. If you "try" and enforce it 80% of the time, you will get a lot more pushback over it. And yes, it is normal to get pushback when you start doing this. Be strong, be consistent. Read about Extinction Burst and Intermittent Reinforcement (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0)

Breathing deep and finding the strength. 

Thank you.  If nothing ever changes then it will keep getting worse.

My hesitation, by the way, relates to the fact that he is diabetic and I have been trained that missing a meal is a HUGE HUGE deal in our house and he sometimes has nausea before eating so the task of meal prep got put on me.

He used to be on insulin and he would storm out of the house without a meal and then say - see you made me mad.  Its your fault I almost died of a low blood sugar.  Now he isn't on insulin so that isn't much of an argument.  He's got a super fast metabolism - so missing a meal makes him lose weight.  I just need to remember that its his choice - not mine to do so.  I need to let him suffers the consequences of his actions - if I want him to find his own way.

Kind of scary how codependent I have been... .  

The saying I've seen (signature of one or two senior people I really respect here for a while) is this:

Nothing changes without changes.

I do believe that abusive situations tend to slowly escalate over time... .  unless the victim changes the game, usually by enforcing boundaries or leaving. When I write about boundaries for verbal abuse, I feel like such a hardass... .  but it is the only way I've found that works. So embrace that part of yourself and go for it!

I know you've got it in you!

One thing about me is that I have got THICK SKIN.  I never even thought that you were being hard with your advice. 

That is why its so surprising that I don't enforce boundaries with my husband.  I wouldn't let ANYONE else get away with that kind of behavior.  My relationship with my BPD mother has improved 100 x since I started with the boundaries.  We actually have a normal relationship (never would have thought that possible 10 yrs ago). I have it in me... .  just have to do it.

Allibaba, we cross-posted there. Sounds like you know how to do it... .  just gotta breath deep and do it. You know how much it can help with your mother... .  I'm betting it will help as much with your husband!

Given that he does have worse consequences than most people would for missing a meal, I think you would be very reasonable to give him some notification about this, pretty much how I said earlier.

I'd probably add an example of what he said to you at breakfast while you were putting his lunch together, and tell him that if he does that to you, you aren't going to listen to that while you take care of his meals.

P.S. I didn't think I was being too hard on you... .  just asking you to find that hard part in yourself.

I am going to start small and concrete. 

Husband - I am not comfortable with the way that certain conversations that we have go.  If you call me a "stupid f idiot" or any other crass variation then unfortunately I will have to leave the conversation.  I know that I adore you and I believe that these types of conversations are not good for either of us.  If I am in the middle of preparing a meal for you then meal prep will just stop and you will have to find an alternative.

Its funny.  Boundaries with my mother are totally unconscious now.  I COMPLETELY forgot the pain of the relationship before I put them in place.  It was a nightmare!  She was insane and I was her punching bag.  It took probably 2 yrs of work.  Sometimes we would go weeks or even a month without speaking.  I had faith that she loves me and that I am important to her and regularly reminded her (like with an email sometimes) when we weren't talking.  Strange that such a tough situation is so faint in my memory now.

I just took a walk with my dog and I was thinking about the journey that I took with my mom.  It was long and painful.  How in the world could I have forgotten it?  How in the world didn't I realize that setting boundaries with her is the same concept as setting boundaries with my husband.  I was terrified in the beginning.  I never told her that I was establishing boundaries, I just stopped letting her walk on me. My mom never called me names, but I would get these long emails, middle of the night phone calls and in person lectures of how ashamed she was of me and how I had become a different person (I hadn't).  She would try to control me.  When it didn't work she got angry.  I think that she even told relatives that I was suffering from mental issues.  Any time that she was upset, she would turn on me. Ironically, my husband was a great source of strength in learning how to deal with her.  He reminded me over and over again about the good in her and taught me how to love her but not accept bad behavior from her.  When I was scared that I would lose her, he taught me that I was more likely to lose her if I kept letting her abuse me. 

How could I have completely forgotten about this... .  it never even crossed my mind that this is the same type of situation.  I stopped answering the phone in the middle of the night.  I stopped responding to the crazy emails.   I started telling her that I loved her. 

Its crazy how my mind compartmentalized the situation with my husband.  Thanks for helping me to remember this.  I know that I have the strength to do this now.  I just have to find that place within myself that realizes that if I don't do this then I will lose the relationship anyway.

 |iiii I'm overjoyed to hear the tone of what you are writing--I hear the love and caring for yourself especially, and your H giving you the strength to do what you know works. 


I think the best thing I ever did for my r/s with my wife was that sort of realization that I could survive if I lost the relationship... .  and I could be firm and loving, but not put up with bad behavior... .  and let her deal with a broken eggshell or two. If she couldn't stay and deal with that, it was her choice. In my case, she chose well, took a path of healing, and we are joyfully together! While it was the last thing on her mind at the time I started enforcing boundaries, she did eventually thank me for it :)

 I see you going down that path again!

Its a new day and it feels good to realize that I have already gone through a similar situation.  It just proves to me that I can do it.

It will be harder to set boundaries with my husband than with my mom for a number of reasons.  

1.  He lives with me.  

2.  He has had some health problems

3.  He has a stronger personality.  That's ok.  My first one was the practice run.

Did I mention my mom and husband share the same birthday (different years obviously!)?

One thing that I started doing one week ago (when I started this post) was I started asking my husband to do things around the house with me.  

If I am cooking dinner and he's watching tv I'll say - can you please come chop up the onions and tomatoes.  At first he said "I'm tired.  I worked all day."  I said "So did I.  Please come help."  Then he said, "but I'm crippled" (tired from working a manual job all day) and I said "if you can work hard for them all day long then you can help me for 5 minutes with dinner."  He actually started laughing.   

If he asks me to get him something from the bedroom and he's in the kitchen - I'll say "I'm busy right now.  Why don't you go grab it."  If he says, "Because my ankle is sore."  Then I tell him "Oh ok, well let me finish what I am doing and then I will run and grab it."  This is helping a lot for days and nights.  I think that when you start to serve a BPD they think that you are their servant and treat you accordingly.

UPDATE:

Small little bits of SUCCESS!

Well, we had a really good weekend over here and it wasn't just because he was in a good mood.  

He woke up in a TERRIBLE mood on Saturday.  It started at breakfast.  He started into me and I stood up and said "I really don't want to say something that I don't mean so I need to leave this conversation right now."  He basically followed me around the house escalating but I didn't take the bait and eventually (within 5 min) he backed off.  He was supposed to take me to get my car first thing (it had been in the shop all week) and he said "I'm not wasting my day going to get your stupid car and you can't drive mine.  Why don't you call one of your nonexistent friends to take you."  SOO... .  I did.  I called one of my friends and she said SURE.  Well once he realized that I had another option he said.  Forget it.  I'll take you to get your car :)

On the way there, he wasn't great.  I told him that is he continued to speak to me in that manner then he could drop me off on the side of the road.  That is my new plan with road rage and verbal abuse that occurs in the car.  NO matter where we are... .  or what is going on... .  I am going to ask him to pull over.  He would never leave me in the middle of nowhere... .  so I believe that it will be an effective boundary.  I told one of my friends my plan and she said she'd be available if I do happen to end up on the side of the road.  :)

Fast forward - we all ended up having an excellent weekend... .  Working together and getting our house in order (gardens, lawn, inside etc).

He even woke up really late this morning (problem with the alarm) and only had 15 min to get out of the house.  Would you believe that there was no verbal abuse.  I'm amazed!

Well let's see if we can do this tomorrow.

Starting to put boundaries in place is changing my life.

2 weeks ago I posted something on this board about not even knowing how to limit the abuse any more.  I was so lost.  I had almost given up and just accepted that I would be abused verbally because this was the situation I had chosen.

Grey Kitty jumped in with a couple of suggestions... .  and in 2 weeks I feel like I living with another person.  My husband helps out around the house.  He does laundry, dishes, gardening... .  I look at him and perceive him as stronger... .  I feel less like a victim and a martyr.  He is actively helping me manage money around the house.  He's starting to be less dominating and more caring.

2 weeks may not seem like much to people whose BPD significant others only fly off the handle occasionally... .  but mine was going off the handle multiple times a day with a Major incident at least once a week lasting multiple days.  THE BEST THAT I COULD EXPECT was a verbal berating (abusive) for an hour in the morning before he left for work. That was a good day.

Granted external factors are helping (he's really enjoying his new job, getting his self esteem back, we haven't had much additional outside stress)... .  but he's started in on the abuse when he doesn't feel well and I have been walking away.  So far so good.  I can almost see a normal life.  Just hope that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a freight train.   lol  Have to keep reading the lessons and be ready when the stress hits.

But I realize that yesterday my husband lost it (so obviously things aren't perfect around here) and I was able to keep things under control. He threw a bunch of stuff in the kitchen and I calmly told him that I was really tired and needed a nap so I'd be in the bedroom.  He came in and out a few times and slammed the door but I stood my ground.  The outburst lasted all of 20 minutes.  Afterwards he went and picked up all the stuff that he had thrown around the house (that never used to happen)... .  and snapped back to normal.

 |iiii  Fantastic news, and keep up the good work!

(Gee, should I be looking to see if you started a new thread already, or just be an optimist?)

Ha ha - I do have a new thread (husband is going through some stress since Wed) and wanted input on how to handle something.

But I'm just letting him go through it.  Its not my right to try to make him better or take away the pain.

The boundaries are working well so far.   I have not sat through any verbal beating since I first posted to you and I started my work.  I can tell he isn't feeling loved... . so gotta work on being loving and kind with detachment.

Thank you.  Again this is literally changing my life. 

I suppose I'm getting push back when I remove myself if the conversation turns to blaming and I'm feeling that it's potentially going to get ugly.  My bf said that my silence speaks volumes because it's something that I don't want to hear.     Well, yeah... . I don't want to hear a bunch of garbage even if it has some grain of truth.  He will pick one part (or even one word) of what I'm saying and twist it.  It seems to work to walk away to some extent though... . at least we both calm down.  Of course there can be no mention of what we were discussing when things get heated or it will start all over again.  Some things are better left unsaid.

Doesn't it suck when you realize it's not always a great idea to say what's on your mind?  I used to think you should be able to completely bare your soul in marriage, but in my situation I think that is not wise.  Self-preservation and long term goals are only recently becoming important enough to me to bite my tongue.

Alliba I can relate to EVERYTHING you are saying here. One of my main struggles is exactly what you mentioned about canceling plans and finding things wrong with people. I find myself catering to his every need. If he befriends someone then like you I try and do the same so we might actually get to do something with someone else for a change and feel normal. Grey Kitty you give me hope. My husband really is trying lately and we will be seeing a psychologist. Appointments are for next week. I just need to learn to be stronger and set boundaries. This forum has been so helpful and I'm continually amazed at it all. I just can't believe I find myself in this situation. Being strong and knowing I don't have to put up with it helps and just having all this knowledge. At first I let it break me down for the first year and a half until I realized what was really going on... .

  I understand... . I think that we all got into this situation initially!  For me it was probably 5+ years... .

I have to reiterate that the steps that Grey Kitty has suggested here are ACTUALLY WORKING.  This is over the course of a couple of weeks... . Initally I mentioned that I was so frustrated that 'I didn't even know to not sit like a bump on a log while I was being verbally abused'.  Grey Kitty jumped in on this post and gave a few recommendations.  I was able to put them in place and BAM the dynamic in our house has started to change in a positive way.  That is not to say that we don't still have our moments.  My husband still has a meltdown about once a week but overall there are so many positives.  For the first time in years, my husband is helping out around the house and we are starting to live a balanced life as a family.  I expect LOTS of steps backwards (don't we all)  lol, but overall I feel SO SO SO much better!

Thanks  Allibaba, I guess I missed that post. I will definitely work on putting this into  action. I do see a big change when I do stand my ground, but there will be less madness I believe to making a concerted effort... .

Jeansok,

This post started off as something else (I was asking for book recommendations for husband for DBT that didn't mention BPD).  Fortunately I was informed that giving him a self help book would likely be perceived as invalidating... . and it rolled off into this discussion (I was desperately looking for a way to stop the beratings).

It was heartbreaking actually.  I would just sit there and listen and listen while my uBPDh tore me to shreads every morning.  I am a professional woman (with a high stress, high powered job)... . and I couldn't even walk away when my husband (who does a much less intense job) called me a STUPID piece of _____.  Often my son (a toddler) would be sitting there too.  I felt paralyzed.  I knew enough not to JADE... . but not had tried over and over to implement boundaries and it wasn't working.

When I am implementing boundaries I am a strong, competent woman, good mother, good friend, good wife, good lover etc.  When I'm acting co-dependent... . well my whole life seems to fall apart. 

I believe that Grey Kitty changed the name of the post and chopped some of the less relevant stuff out of it... .

So... . the most important things that I learned here was:

1. boundaries must be implemented with consistency otherwise it is much more difficult to get the effect.

2.  it doesn't matter whether my spouse has 'buy in'.  Focus on what is important to me.  In fact telling him about the boundary may just be an invitation to him 'to break the rules'.  You can work this stuff right in the moment.

3.  Some people walk away without saying anything (and it works for them) but I don't think that its fair to my spouse personally.  If someone was going to walk out on me in the middle of a discussion then the least they could do is tell me why.  'I am leaving this discussion because at this point I am worried that I will say something I regret.'

4.  Start small.  Its hard for my uBPDh to understand why what normally works isn't working and like a toddler he will throw a tantrum.  For me - I narrowed it down to two things both related to Verbal abuse

1.  When he starts calling me names

2.  When he starts telling me why I am the scum of the earth (should never have been born - stupid, disorganized, etc.)  I decided that I would have two strategies - one for in the house and one for in the car.

For the house - if he starts up I say "please don't speak to me like that.  If you do, you can finish your own ______ (fill in blank here)."  Our scenarios usually involved me making breakfast or packing his lunch.  For some reason a lot of times I got paralyzed because I didn't want him going to work without his meals... .   Kind of twisted.  He is saying the worst most horrible things to me and I am worrying about him not having a sandwich at lunch.  CODEPENDENT cough.  My husband is a competent man... . if I stop in the middle of making him breakfast or lunch he is TOTALLY capable of 1. finishing it.  2. making something else.  3.  buying something out!

For the car - if he starts driving with road rage.  Calling me names etc... . then I tell him "if you keep speaking to me like this then please pull over and leave me by the side of the road."  I started carrying a purse again with a charged phone, cash, etc in it and spoke to one of my friends to warn her that I may be sitting on the side of the road and need a ride :)  I hear that its important in a car not to provoke them more.  This boundary seems to be working for us because frankly my husband is totally paranoid about my safety and I am VERY important to him.  The LAST thing that he wants to do is leave me on the side of the road where he can't protect me (IRONIC isn't it).

I couple of years ago I thought my husband was NPD and I found a self help book online that talked about boundaries -- but the biggest thing that kept it from working was that I kept saying to him "You cannot treat me like this." and he saw it as an invitation to prove that he could.  Now I realize that he can treat me however he wants to... . but that doesn't mean I need to accept it. 

Sorry for the novel but it was actually a good recap for me.  I hope you get something out of it.   lol

Allibaba, actually this has been extremely helpful. And the in the car part, sometimes I just sit there and pray he we don't get into an accident when he's raging. This is very helpful, I have recently said something similar but not really knowing what I was doing. When he starts with the name calling and such I will try this everytime instead of taking it so personal like I tend to do... .

I was surprised by how quickly my uBPDh reacted (in a positive way) to the boundaries.

I do think that there were a couple of other factors in play... .

1.  I think that he would be classified as high functioning... . and I think that helps.  I think that the way that I didn't put any responsibility on him was actually making him feel like he wasn't worth responsibility.

2.  A therapist had also identified to me (just based on my visits) that my husband just didn't feel like he was adding much value to the world (a lot of insecurity)... . we had moved to a new country and he has struggled to get back into his career... . and has taken a lower paying, lower responsibility job... . The therapist suggested that I try to steer him toward something that would help build back self-esteem.  I realized that because of anxiety trying to get him back into his career of choice might not be the best idea... . but found a volunteer activity that I knew that he would throw himself into and that he would be naturally good at.  He has gotten involved with it over the last few months and its really helping him a lot.

3.  Even though my uBPDh has realized that something has been wrong for a while and even though he agreed to see someone -- he ended up backing out.  I realized that my attempts to get him into therapy were actually invalidating (constantly confirming that something about him is wrong).  I realized that I had better work on keeping my own side of the street clean first.

Anyway GOOD LUCK!  I hope that you have a positive result.

Well I guess if realizing that you can't continue in the current situation is STEP 0

And learning how to use proper boundaries to limit the abuse is STEP 1

Then for me STEP 2 is learning to get better at Validation.

My husband was in a mood this morning... . and it was very very interesting because since I started effectively implementing boundaries he has basically stopped calling me names and the overt verbal abuse has stopped... . but this morning coolly and calmly he was laying into me. 

First off I was very grateful that there was no name calling and I was very grateful that the outright... . 'you should never have been born' type comments were missing from our dialogue.  He also didn't once call me stupid.  SMALL VICTORIES!

Second I knew that I was leaving the house for work shortly... . there was a built in escape.

But I realized on the way into work that not once had I validated his feelings this morning -- DOH!  No wonder he feels like I don't listen to him.

The last thing that happened before I left was I asked for his paycheck.  We had discussed it yesterday and he had asked if I would deposit it today and I said sure.  So I brought it to him and asked him to endorse it.  He said "All you care about is money. Once you start caring about me and my needs again then you can deposit my paycheck."  HMMMM I was actually doing him a favor... . but hey ho.

I came to work.  Looked up the validation tools discussion that Grey Kitty posted earlier in this thread... . read it and then sent a message saying "Hey.  I know that you worked hard for your paycheck and I can understand that me wanting to deposit it into our account makes you feel like all I care about is money.  Anyway love you and hope that your day improves."

He checked the message about an hour later and immediately called me to give me a report of what he was doing (his version of the white flag).  I think that validation may have saved us from spinning off into conflict.  These are powerful tools.

You do have those steps in the right order. I still don't think I'm particularly good at validation yet, or that I consistently notice when I should do it. I remember that doing more validation with everyone was my new year's resolution... .

I would add one other step that you need to do prior to validation being effective:

Make sure that you aren't saying things that are invalidating. It is way too easy to do that in a conflict situation... . and two pounds of validation are completely contaminated with an ounce of invalidation mixed in.