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Well, 4 1/2 hours of sitting and talking with my exfiance last night. Yikes. No yelling, no real hurtful things said. He swears he left because I was mean to him - he said he meant everything he ever said to me, and he wanted to marry me up until that point.

We got into a fight in July and I threw my ring across our apartment. We patched it up immediately and we were fine. During our last fight, which wasn't major, I took my ring off and put it down, because I was done fighting and wanted to go to bed. He swears I threw it down and "you don't get to do that twice" - we obviously disagree on this.

He said he went back and forth and it was hard because he saw how upset I was, and hurt, and felt guilty for doing that, and also for me being good to him. Ultimately, he said he just couldn't handle being hurt anymore.

I told him that his actions were not those of someone who loved me, and that he was terrible at expressing his feelings - because I had the rug pulled out from under me with no warning. He agreed that he should have talked more to me and expressed things more.

He kept saying the standard "all good things come to an end" and "better now than later". I of course told him we didn't know what the future holds, and the one thing we could have counted one was the certainty of each other.

He said that he's learned about himself and he's speaking up for himself more. He talked about the new girl he's seeing. He told me he doesn't love her, he's not thinking of a future with her, or anything, and speaking up for himself with her instead of being sad. He told me she knows everything, and even has told her how sad our situation is.

The two things that bother me is that he mentioned his concerns about me getting upset with him, and "starting fights", yet mentioned he's had a few arguments with the new girl already. Additionally, he was concerned about my drinking, yet told me he got really drunk about a month ago and passed out, face first, onto a curb. He woke up in an ambulance. He also bragged about quitting smoking, yet split nearly a pack with me.

I don't know how I feel. It's bittersweet and melancholy.  I miss him. He said he misses me too. There was no talk of reconciliation, but talk of getting to a point where we were civil. He does say he has sleepless nights and he gets sad - but then remembers the "bad" and he knows he made the right decision.

He kept bringing up the fact that we got into a few tiffs since the split, and I "spewed hateful ~" at him. This is true, and I'm not proud of it. However, I was in so much pain that HE caused. He doesn't understand it.

Last night was the first time err, EVER, that we sat down and talked face to face. He left in November. He told me he wasn't ready to talk before now, and I told him I needed the conversation to happen months ago - that it made it much more difficult.

He said he cares about me, and always will, and worries about my well-being. He told me I look too skinny and probably should eat more.

When we left, we each gave each other the longest hug ever, and just stood on the street like that. He kissed me on my forehead, like he used to do, and that was that.

He sent me two messages, via Facebook, since. One when he got home and another, longer one this morning. I haven't responded. I think I'm stronger from the conversation to go total NC - something I haven't been capable of doing.

Are you clear on what you want lostkitten?  My BPD ex missed me when we split, and she tried to reconcile and create a friendship with me, since she had the self-awareness to realize that things were good when we were just friends, and didn't get triggered until we escalated to a physical/romantic relationship.  Well, people I consider friends don't treat me like she did, and it's crap anyway since there was continuous sexual tension between us when we were supposedly just friends.  Can't blame her for trying, but when we both get our core trauma triggered in creates a loaded bond that is pure chaos, and I just can't go there, for my own health and sanity.

Is your goal complete NC now?

Yes, my goal is complete NC. If we happen to run into each other, I feel our conversation the other night will remove any awkwardness and animosity. I cannot be his friend at this point, or ever possibly, due to how he handles himself.

I've ignored the (now) 6 Facebook messages from him, one email, and friend/follow requests on Facebook, instagram and twitter. I'm not sure of he thinks the conversation clears the slate, or excuses his actions. He keeps asking if I'm alright and feeling better - I do not know of he's doing this to make himself feel better or to keep the door open. I will not be responding.

Mine did the same thing.  My take is a pwBPD fears abandonment most, so they never want to let you go all the way, mine found me again on Facebook after 25 years, plus they are full of shame, so if there's a possibility that you hate him or similar, they're driven to fix it.  I needed to learn that it wasn't an attempt to reconcile of recycle the relationship, just a knee-jerk reaction to abandonment and shame.  And of course any interpersonal relationship with a pwBPD will be chaotic, as you know.  Do what's right for you.

No yelling, no real hurtful things said... .  why?  Because he needs you now.  And he has sufficient emotional distance not to have his disordered feelings triggered.  That will change if you choose to re-engage with him.  His behavior will re- cycle.

He swears he left because you were mean to him.  Let me elaborate that for him: he left you because he swears he believed you were going to leave him (abandon him) and so he left you first.  The problem is, you never intended to abandon him.  The problem is, he will always imagine that the ones closest to him will abandon him.  This is in the nature of his disorder.

Right now, since he's been distant, he is not dealing with his disordered feelings so much (with you).  But this will change.  His behavior will re- cycle.


So what does he reasonably expect of you?  That you never, ever for the rest of your life take off your wedding rings?  Because the minute you take it off, he will expect that you intend to leave the marriage?  

Or is the problem not that you might occasionally take off the ring, but rather when he is experiencing his disordered fear that you will abandon him, if at that instance he also sees you not wearing your wedding ring, then this only adds fuels to his disordered fear?


He saw how upset you were.  But he couldn't handle being hurt anymore.

I would argue that for pwBPD, they will always place their own feelings (even/especially the disordered one) ahead of the interest and feelings of their loved ones.


His actions were, however, consistent with someone who suffers from BPD.  People with BPD (pwBPD) act impulsively... .  when they have the emotional impulse to act.  If/when his (disordered) emotional impulse is: this woman who says she loves me is going to abandon me, then he will do what he must to avoid that abandonment.  He will abandon first.  Because the person who leaves first is the abandoner.  And he can not bear to be the abandoned.

He might agree that he "should" have talked more.  But what is he going to do?  Convince you that he is right for acting on his disordered feelings?  What does he see when he is experiencing his disordered fear of abandonment?  He sees you convincing him to stay, telling him that you have no intention to leave him, while his brain is screaming to him that you are only saying this to catch him unaware.

When he is in his (disordered) emotional state, everything you do is interpreted in a way that supports his (disordered) thinking.  For pwBPD feelings = fact.  Or rather their disordered feelings will alter their perception of what is real.


And I would argue that it is a certainty, while he is unrecovered from his disorder, that he will be overwhelmed by his disordered feelings again.  His behavior will re- cycle.


Well, I would argue that his feelings were very different before.  When you didn't hear from him before, I'd bet money that he was planning on a future with her.  That he did love her.  Even worse: now that he is getting close to her, his disordered feelings are escalating (again).  He is becoming convinced that she will abandon him.  And I would argue that *this* is why he is now coming back to you.

For now (while he is devaluing the new girl), he doesn't believe he's ever loved her, that he's not thinking of a future with her.  Instead he's going to tell you, that he's always loved you, that he has always thought of a future with you.  Until his feelings change.  And your role will be reversed (again) with the new girl.

Let him prove that "she knows everything."   Why don't he make it possible for you to speak with her?  Or is his word enough?

Don't trust what he says.  Trust what he does.  And what has he done?


Why should he be concerned about you getting upset with him, if he has no expectation that he will do anything to upset you?

As for the drinking and smoking, that sounds a bit like projection, no?  He drinks too much, so then he *projects* his concern about drinking onto you.  He believes he's quit smoking, but no not really... .  

Trust his actions, not his words.


He wasn't ready?  Or he didn't need to talk to you before now?

What if he spouts out that his feelings for you now are completely different?  After this conversation he's realized what a huge mistake he's made?  What will you do then?


These are his words.  But what have his actions communicated to you over the last several months?


I think the contact you had with him may make it more difficult for you to go NC (in the short term).  Your interaction with him was mostly positive.  This kind of experience will fly in the face of what you've been working on understanding about his issues and his disorder.  I hope what I've written put this experience in a context which reinforces your efforts to dis-engage from him.

Best wishes, Schwing

Great post schwing. Helped explain what was going on when I would go through the same exact thing with my ex in past

Ehmm... .  putting down or throw the ring is quite the real thing and not imagination. A partner is not a mind reader, so no matter the intention, it will probably be perceived as a very real abandonment. Same thing goes for spewing hateful things. Both actions are punishments and unhealthy for relationships. Part of the core of BPD is to blame instead of taking responsibility. Justifying or doing the same is not helping anyone.

For a healthy recovery from BPD relationships, I think it's quite important to make sure that you're responsible for your own well being and actions. Not focusing on the ex, rather on yourself and what you can do to get a better life. Hopefully LostKitten will move in to a future rewarding and enjoyable relationship without these characteristics.

There are few things that concern me here – the main one being that of contradictions and the fact he sees it very differently to you.

This is all crazy making behaviour which in the end only hurt. I also had the “after break up” chat and it was invalidating. I recommend that folks don’t go back for THE chat because this scenario of not seeing things the same is very common.

The other thing that stands out is his lack of boundaries – him telling you about discussions he has with his new GF! And the new GF being subjected to discussions that should be kept private between you and him. This is a huge red flag!

What part of this discussion has helped you move to NC? And while NC is only part of the solution how can you work towards emotionally detaching from this man? What is it you want for your life from now on and what limits will you set with others who attempt to stomp on your boundaries?

Thank you all for the sound advice! Personally, meeting with him, after having insight about BPD, was so helpful for me to start to heal my heart. What he did isn't okay, and I am still dealing with the hurt from his actions. However, after meeting, I feel confident in going NC and putting the pieces of my life back together - without him in it.

I think he's possibly unraveled a bit from the conversation - i've gotten six messages from him on facebook, one email and he's been tweeting very cryptic things. However, all are going unanswered and ignored, which I am proud of myself for. He chose to leave. I would have done anything it took to help him, and fix us, but he chose to leave - therefore, I will not be there to help him through this.

The sun seems to be coming out, slowly, but it's coming out.

kitten,

Most of us have gone back "one last time" to hash it out, to have a civilized conversation, to get closure, etc, etc, etc.  The difference between finding our own closure and re-cycling with our ex is the degree in how much we actually believe what they said.

Someone who desperately needs you will say absolutely anything to get you back.  I would put little weight into words that lack any substantial actions to back them up.  I think you already know this.

Stay strong and keep posting!  Your journey of self-discovery has just begun 

tailspin

I got an email from mine a few weeks ago that said in part "I miss you and I want the best for you."  Yeah, OK sunshine, remember last August when I was the scum of the earth?  Thanks to you guys I now see it as all need and no real concern for me.

lostkitten, you are doing great!  I'm so glad you can see that the sun will come out for you again. Stay strong :)

I think it's hard to go NC after a contact way after the r/s is over.  There is something in us that doesn't like to hurt another person.  They play into this.  With tales of woe.  We have to take on a bit of healthy narcissisism to break the re-engagement.  We have to put our well being first because they certainly aren't going to do that.  The recent contact by my ex, over his issues and how he feels mentally unstable.  Validated that he is BPD.  It also brought back some sadness over what could of been, missing the good parts and sadness that he truly does not care a bit about me.  He could go through DBT and get over the anger part but the narcissist in him will never change, that total self absorption, that is core with him.  There really is no possibility of any sort of r/s with him.  Oh well.  Time is my friend, the more time passes, the better I feel.

I see recent email contact by my BPD ex as filling two needs for her: 1) I left her, so she took the opportunity to say more or less she would have left me, had she been more 'self-aware' at the time, and 2) she apologized for 'her part in the ugliness', said she misses me, loves me as a person, and 'wishes the best for me.'

Hanging around here and learning about BPD for a while, the whole thing was clearly an attempt to use me to soothe her, which I was really good at when we were together, even in the face of all the abuse, but she doesn't get to use me to meet her needs anymore.  Mine matter more finally.