BPDFamily.com

Hi all.

Without laying my whole story out here, I have been in an emotionally intimate friendship with my uBPDexbf.  (Readers Digest version: He broke up with me suddenly for reasons that made little sense.  I was devastated but respected his decision.  He wanted to remain close, we discussed getting back together, he got cold feet but again wanted to remain close, we did until I discovered he was pursuing a connection with another exgf, and I asked for no contact, which I maintained for 10 months.  We reconnected when I felt I could accept that he wasn't taking the steps I'd thought he was to deal with his intimacy issues and maybe be with me -- he hadn't prioritized our r/s, I learned I was one of a string of women to whom he'd said the same over the top love of my life stuff, etc.  I offered a friendship and meant it.  He pulled me very close emotionally, to the point when we were sometimes like partners without the sex or overt commitment, but would periodically withdraw when we got very close.  He said he was working on individuating & not getting lost in a r/s like he has all his life.  I completely respect that.)

A few months back, he suddenly left town.  I was sad about it but supportive.  Before he left he said he was thinking he would come back eventually, after traveling for a bit.  But a month after he left, he wrote from a new city he'd been in for 36 hours & said he'd decided to move there, pretty much at random.  I wrote back and said, essentially, why are you starting over?  There are people here who know & love you, including me.  He didn't react well to this -- silence for 10 weeks.  I finally reached out to him, and we've been having a painful, but honest, email exchange for the past few weeks about how much he didn't like my questions, about my need to be able to be honest with him, about how crappy it was that he stopped talking to me after having said I should never self-censor with him and that he would never just disappear on me, about how he didn't understand what my problem with his leaving was ... . at various points we have both said our friendship is precious & we don't want to lose it.

Some of the exchange has been mean and hurtful on his part.  He used his normal trump card to fend off closeness with me, reminding me that this is "only" a friendship and suggesting that I have a hidden agenda for it to be more, to capture him, etc.  He particularly didn't respond well when I reminded him that it was me who suggested we not try to be lovers and partners again unless he addressed his intimacy issues -- it was almost like "no, I rejected you, you did not reject me."  He accused me of hubris, not examining my own "stuff;" said any expectations I'd had of him were my projecting qualities onto him he does not have, and then acting like he misrepresented himself [short answer: he has repeatedly suggested he wanted to be very intimate with me only to leave, so yes, I think that is accurate; but all I've said about this is that if I'd known he was "itinerant," as he is now describing himself, I would not have allowed myself to care about him in the way that I did].

Finally I said it did not seem we would be able to have this conversation because neither of us feels safe; that I did not know how to create a climate of safety; he keeps saying that he wants me to be honest with him and then he reacts very angrily when I am; that maybe we needed to pull back to a place of just providing "news updates" to one another about our lives.  I did say that if he could see a way to repair and get back to a place of deeper connection, I'd be open to that.  All my advisors including folks from this board, who read the nasty-gram he sent me last week, found it abusive, if that gives you a flavor of the dynamic.

Yet after I sent that "let's step back" message, he responded with a self-critical, open, warm message saying he thought it was worth going through this struggle in order to have a meaningful friendship; that you only avoid hard places with someone if you don't try to go anywhere important with that person; that he was sorry for being so defensive, that he doesn't know how to maintain a line between himself and another person & he therefore gets it wrong a lot; that he does feel safe with me (!) and that he will try to create an environment in which I also feel safe; suggesting that we both need to use "I" statements and not characterize one another's feelings (a good observation about our exchange).

My question for y'all:

I don't feel safe with him.  Not a bit.  In a way, that is where all this started.  He keeps building relationships with me and then leaving them unilaterally.  I have never attacked him for this, I keep withdrawing to what I feel is safe ground with him, only to have that new ground give way under my feet.  Finally, I said something about it, and it prompted, first a prolonged silent treatment, and then, a rage (he is almost always a silent rager, this is one of the only times he has actually expressed anger openly to me).

When he says he will try to create a climate of safety for me ... . should I tell him why it is that I do not feel safe?  I was surprised to read him saying he feels safe with me -- it's an extraordinary statement from someone who doesn't feel safe with anyone; who broke up with me; who has just emerged from feeling pretty attacked by these mild questions I asked him about why he is constantly starting over.  So I don't want to blow off this exchange about "safety" -- it seems important.  And I had just proposed stepping back our r/s because neither of us feel safe.

But I don't know how to address the issue of my emotional safety with him without going into territory where I'm saying he has hurt me.  As we know, that's not easy ground for someone wBPD.  Should I venture into this?  If so, any advice about how to do it so he can hear me?

It sounds like you do have hopes / expectations for him to stop being borderline which is fraught with push/pull. Closeness will lead to distance and with some distance there may be a swing back toward closeness. This doesn't feel safe to you (it's acutely uncomfortable, but it is diagnostic of this attachment disorder). It is fair to say how you feel. You are essentially letting him know that his inherent need to push/pull feels emotionally unsafe. What are the expectations?

That he simply acknowledge or validate your feelings? He might be able to do this... .

That he stop exhibiting a borderline organization in his relating style? (stop the push/pull?) He likely will not be able to do this... .

What steps can you take ( or perhaps take steps as a team ) to feel more sense of safety

since feeling safe is an issue for both of you right now?

I wonder why you guys are sparing over projections and expectations? At the core, don't we all harbor hope/expectations that the BPD go away and we get to have the healthy version of them in our life minus the push/pull b.s. He may have used unflattering words or examples, but at some level isn't he correct that you hope to capture the good again if possible? Bottom-line, isn't that valid? So why not validate the valid?

I don't especially feel safe with my pwBPD, either. But, what got me into really crappy territory was expectations that he help me with my feeling states eg., stop making me feel so unsafe!  But he can't do that for me!   I had to do it for myself! Oh sure, sometimes he fostered a better sense of safety, but then bam! He would do something that then fostered a complete sense of unsafety... . Cause of his push-pull stuff.  Its borderline. But that's what he does. I had to find ways to provide my own sense of emotional safety despite his push pulls if I chose to be relating with him.  His push pulls became less dramatic when I stopped adding to the drama, and focused on ways to sooth myself and cut him out of the equation (crazy isn't going to help!) ... . don't expect him to assist.  Sometimes he does assist, but

other times he doesn't! Up down. Push pull. Its hard! It's a do it yourself proposition!

Hmm.  Excellent point.

I started drafting a "my safety issues are ... . " message to him this morning & it actually felt good to imagine explaining myself to him. He keeps challenging me to show my real feelings & says he wants to help me feel safe. The idea of seeing if we can get anywhere worth getting with this is so appealing.

Maybe as you say, I'm hoping he'll stop being BPD. I'm wondering though ... . do you think that sometimes at least, your r/s with your pwBPD is enhanced by him understanding why this is hard for you? Has been hard for you?

I think my situation is challenging for me right now, because of his departure. We are sparring over attachment, connection, the significance of our r/s, because he left & seem to think it wouldn't make a difference, & it does make a difference to me. And I tried to say so, & he didn't like it, but now we're maybe talking about it, & it feels like the first deeply honest conversation we've had about things between us for so long.  It also feels like a big risk to be so honest with him.

My conundrum with him is always whether to step back to safety or step forward & take a chance, knowing that our hopes and instincts don't parallel each other and we are both now fearful of and yet desiring closeness.  When we are not very open w/each other things can be very painful. With openness we have sometimes gotten to some pretty neat places. But with openness comes risk, including that he wll continue to leave in various ways that are still painful for me.

I like what he had to say about the use of "I statements".  "I" statements are moving far away from codependent territory.  Being open and honest with the way you feel.  Not about what he does that you don't approve of, but how things make you feel.  How you feel about life in general!

I remember early on how my guy was walking (away?) super fast... .  

We were going to the symphony and he was walking miles ahead of me towards the entrance   I had heels on and couldn't keep up!  :)idn't think I was even supposed to, I mean... .   So, I kept my cool somehow, caught up at my own pace, enjoyed the music and the atmosphere (not him!); he was acting weirdo, can't even really describe it other than a dark presence, there was a lot going on underneath the surface, enough for me to realize... . ya know, this guy has real issues and something's more than not right... .  Had a quiet ride back to my house where I told him how I felt... .  That I felt demeaned, discounted, alone and like the air had been let out of my balloon.  Here I was looking forward to a fun night with him. A beautiful night of music and culture, with him.  Sure, I enjoyed the music, but to feel like the person that I was so excited to spend this time with couldn't get away from me fast enough?  :)idn't want to be with me?  I'd of had to run to keep up with and barely spoken to for an entire evening?  No, it just felt too out there for me and I wouldn't put myself in the position to feel like that again.

He made up some excuse that it was cold out and he wanted to get inside.  He then went on to kinda babble that he's just not happy, I don't even know about what, us, life in general, I didn't care at that point.  I said quietly (there was no yelling or high emotion/drama) that I'm not happy either right now.  He asked what that meant and shrugged my shoulders and said that I feel really sad right now, I feel like ___ and I don't ever want to feel like this again.  He looked at me with the saddest look on his face and I slowly shook my head no, like I mean it, I will not feel like this again.  He left.  He didn't call me that night.  I slept alright!  I spoke my truth!

He called in the morning, sincerely apologized and hasn't done that since, hasn't made me feel 'less than'.

That is one of my limits.  I will not spend time with a person that makes me feel less than.  I don't care what the reasoning behind it is.  If they're a total buzzkill and plain old rude to boot, I don't want to spend time with them.

So yea, "I" statements can work in certain situations.  It's also super important to know what your boundaries are and to do what's necessary for yourself to lead a happy, contented life.

Don't think too much about what he thinks.  But, how do you feel?

When we get deep in touch with our feelings, they become easier to own and express, no matter the outcome... .

   

That's a great story, Phoebe.  Thank you (as ever) so much for sharing that window into how you've evolved a viable dynamic with your pwBPD.

Do you take from that that I should in fact name the things that make me feel unsafe in this r/s?  They are pretty fundamental behaviors -- silent treatment, impulsive leaving, accusing me of trying to capture him.  MaybeSo seems to be saying that the (ill-advised) point of doing that would be to hope that he can work on those things, avoid them, do them less, out of caring about me.  Well ... . I admit that is not exactly the typical BPD storyline.  Can you help me to understand if what you are recommending is different than that?

I would say he has reached my limits.  We formed a bond, he left.  We formed another bond, he left again.  When I commented about it he went silent for 10 weeks, and he was accusatory about my attempts to discuss it.

Now though, he says he wants to help me feel safe, and he wants to discuss how he had a hard time knowing where the line is between himself and other people.  This is sort of an overture to talk about the core dynamics between us.  Is this a time to accept that invitation?  Because this is his response to my saying I was at my limits with those other behaviors.

Hi P&C,

It does sound like your guy wants to open up your conversations again and I can see why you are so wary of this given what has happened before. The difference is this time he is inviting the deeper conversation.

I let my b/f into some things about me that I hadnt shared with anyone and I was really scared to do this esp as it was so so rocky and following on from rages, silent treatments and him even ending it. The difference was that I did this not out of wanting to hear his response it was more that I wanted to tell him how I felt and my history/issues. I still used the tools in this conversation and used "I" statements and also told him I didnt need any responses from him. I kept things general like "in relationships I think... . " rather then my usual "in OUR relationship I think... . " It really really worked for me which was such a surprise as that was not my intention. He now says he feels closer to me, can see that I do in fact trust him at a core level (whatever i say to the contrary about his behaviour) and he says he understands me better and that I am not withholding stuff from him. I also got the impression that my emotional distance over this undisclosed issue has been making him feel like a bad person and that I didnt like him somehow (they are quite astute about spotting us withholding sometimes arent they?) Of course sometimes our distance is because of the eggshells... .

I dont know if thats any help as its all about timing and their BPD waves. But if those things line up then a good deep convo can do wonders. Maybe you could start with a few "I" statements about how you feel about r/s's in general rather then your r/s with him?

I am new to BPD so bat this out the water if its off field! Wanted to answer as you have always been so great in your posts to me  

Connect, thanks so much, that's very timely.  Yes, he definitely feels like I am withholding important information from him.  We actually have never talked at all about our breakup or anything that happened after, since we reconnected.  It's all unspoken, all the hurt I felt, all the hurt he felt when I requested NC and kept that up for 10 months.  I've assumed it was my responsibility to keep the area clear of that stuff, if that makes sense, since we were agreed this was only (what a misnomer!) a friendship, but actually, it was close enough and now the issues are deep enough, that I can see his point that we kind of have to be more in, or more out.

It's scary for me to open myself further after him leaving again.

Glad to help! I was shocked at how much my b/f pinned on me "witholding" things from him. He sensed there were things I had going on that I was not talking about. These were past things for me but of course he didnt know that and perhaps thought they were present things. I was surprised that he could tell this about me. Amazing really.

He said that me talking to him had put a small bit of weight on his shoulders but had in turn realeased a ton of weight off his.

With your issues being about the break up and him etc I can see that this is a much more delicate convo to have and needs careful navigating so its not too personal for him (and they can feel attacked cant they) Thats when the "general" stuff comes in I feel. And the "I" stuff. Mine said he wants a best friend in a r/s and he could sense that I wasnt giving that. You could try for the best friend approach maybe? You want to be there for each other? Maybe try him on a small part of it first and see how it goes rather then do it all at once. I told mine at the beginning how much I valued him as a person and that got it off to a good start straight away. Perhaps say how how you would like your r/s to look like where you can talk about things - talk about what you want rather than what you dont want. If you refer to things that make you emotionally unsafe keep them general like "I always like to feel I can just call someone i am close to to just chat even if we havent talked for a while"

This is a bit rambling as am at work!

I'd be honest and say that he's right!  Not so much that you're trying to 'capture him' per se, but that you've tried to hold onto the good stuff because when you suspect he's pulling away from you or angry with you, it makes you feel _____?  And those feelings make you feel _____?  That you realize they are your feelings to own, not trying to drop anything heavy on him, it's just that these are the things that go on inside of you and that you can understand how it affects him, too; the dynamic then becomes a little blurry and what is good between you becomes a mishmash of all kinds of other not-so-good feelings mixed in.

What makes him feel emotionally safe?  I'd ask him that, too; 'What makes you feel emotionally safe/unsafe?  Can you help me to understand?'

I think I'd keep it short to begin with, a few honesty statements, a couple questions maybe... .   I wouldn't get into your original relationship break-up stuff, or his fundamental BPD behaviors of impulsively leaving, silent treatments etc... . But, how it makes you feel when the two of you aren't connecting.

I agree.

Its not that I think its bad idea to share how you feel, I think what is triggering is messages that say... .

I'm unhappy and it's your fault. Fix (how I feel) or else.

As opposed to... .

I just want to share who I am and how I feel so we can be honest and connect and I want you to be safe to do that, too... . and I take responsibility for my choices and my feelings... .

Also, I think it's important to validate when they read us correctly.

PwBPD are often extremely intuitive and can read the tea leaves a mile away. They often

overdramatize the stuff they sense... . but often, they are correct or at least in the ball park of

some truth. You got to validate the valid.

If they say "you hate me and never trust me"... .

On this board... . most nons go straight into JADE... . about how they don't HATE and they don't

have trust issues, or get into arguments about who is projecting a lack of trust onto whom... .

And the whole thread reeks of anger and mistrust!  

If it's valid, validate it!

"sometime I do feel like I hate the way we fight"

"sometimes I really do feel scared and untrusting"

My difficulty for 4-5 years was not avoiding sharing how I feel... . That was never my

problem! I was never as careful as you are, P&C, I was going to share come hell or high

water, who cares if it ends the R/s, if it was really important to me... . he heard all about it!

The difficulty with my style of communicating was... .

I shared how I felt with the undertone that it's all his fault that I'm feeling this way.

Very codependent. I wanted him to fix how I felt.

This was what I had to work on.

"I'm unhappy and it's your fault cause you do XYZ... . "

Is different than... .

"I feel emotionally unsafe... . I own the choices that got me here, I'd like your assistance to feel a bit safer if you are willing,  maybe we can work as a team so both of us can have

more safety?"

"And yes, I would love it if things were more stable like in the beginning of the relationship, theres a part of me that would love to get that back, but you are important to me and I accept we are in a different place right now."

My ex is USE to being blamed for everything... . since childhood.

He gets triggered with messages (however honest the feelings shared may be) that indicate he's a bad person, he's an abusive person, I'm having a feeling state that is all his fault and his responsibility to fix,  he is broken, he is going to get left or punished for being bad.

And by the way... .

While I pleaded with him to be honest with me... . The reality is, if he told me something in all honesty that scared me (I feel like I don't love you) I would totally punish him for sharing!

If we want to have a honest connection, we have to be tuff enuff to hear and sit with the truth... . and sometimes the truth for the moment is really yucky!

My issues were never not sharing, and I was never as super careful about sharing with my guy, he almost always knows where I stand... . which is why after 6 years he does trust me, he knows I do not bull him and I am honest... .

What is better now is that I am honest AND I take better care of myself (my own emotional state, my own choices)... . so he isn't constantly on the hot seat feeling judged and blamed.

MaybeSo, that is unbelievably helpful.  I'm going to come back & read & re-read before I answer him -- which I haven't been able to do yet.  What I've been writing doesn't feel right.

I am still confused though!  Phoebe often says don't worry so much about how you are going to make him feel.  MaybeSo, you are giving excellent insight into how to avoid making him feel like I think it is his responsibility to fix my feelings of being abandoned (by him).

And right now we are right in the middle of a conversation in which he has asked some important questions that I think he did want me to answer, which are smack dab about our relationship.  I feel like dancing around and not answering them is missing the first real chance we've had to discuss what happened with us; and missing his request that I be honest about my feelings.

But I don't know how to talk about that stuff without seeming to blame him or put it all on him.

Here are his questions -- maybe you can help me figure out whether to answer them and what to do with my actual answers which are in brackets.

(i) [I wrote that I can accept he is itinerant but I wouldn't have allowed myself to care for him as I do if he'd presented himself to me that way at the beginning.]  His question: So you projected qualities onto me I don't possess and now are upset with me?  Are you saying I misrepresented my self?  [My true answer: no, I don't think you misrepresented yourself, I think when you told me you wanted a partner, a house, a yard and a tree in the yard that we picked out, you mean it to be that way; but that is who you appeared to be at the outset, when I first came to care about you.]

(ii) His question: Are you saying you can't care about someone who is not in the same locale as you? [No ... . I am saying though that it makes a difference to me whether we are stuck emailing forever, or whether we can go listen to music, listen to a talk, have dinner, go to a gallery together, and use what we see together as the substance of our relationship]

(iii) [I wrote: I do not build something up only to pull it apart] His statement: You and I are in different universes.  [My question: what do you mean by that?  Do you mean I do pull things apart, as in, I also left him and I am not taking responsibility for that?  Or do you mean that things just do come apart and that's the way it is?]

My emotional safety issues with him, if I were to go the route of describing those, are that he leaves when things get hard & doesn't stay to repair and fix with me -- he did that when he broke up with me, and he did that this time when he went silent for 10 weeks and only answered when I reached out again.  And also, that he unilaterally changes our r/s just when I feel I've found stable ground (like you say MaybeSo, my safety issue is that he has BPD, I do see that).  And also, that he thwacks me over the head whenever I say something about my actual feelings, which I think he reciprocates, with "this is only a friendship." 

About the latter issue: I feel like I have been honest with him about this all along, without delving into the background issues of feeling abandoned & betrayed.  I've said I'll miss him, I'm sad he's leaving, and so on.  Without trying to hang onto him.  So what is it now that he feels I am hiding, that I need to surface, other than this scary stuff he really doesn't want to hear -- that he abandoned me, that that hurt like hell, that I feel like I have PTSD as a result, that nonetheless I tried again to be close to him in a way I thought was reciprocal, only to have him unilaterally change the terms of the r/s suddenly?

I am hiding the part where I am still devastated that he left me.  But he doesn't want to hear about that, does he?  I was less devastated while he was still here, because we were doing something that felt worthwhile and equal, even though it was not what I originally thought.  When he left this, it made me feel it is all utterly transient and not as important to him as it is to me.  It doesn't seem like I want to be telling him all that, does it?

I will respond more later... .

But I think Phoebe and I are on the same page.

I didn't change my communication style from codependent to adult as a means to make him feel safer or walk on eggshells or avoid hurting his tender feelings... . or to better ensure he doesn't run away... .

I am working to change my codependent style because it doesn't work. Period. It isn't a helpful relating style with my pwBPD or anyone.

As a by product of being less (co)dependent, my pwBPD feels safer because he isn't being assigned blame for things he has no real control over... . eg, my feelings.

I hear that (& if you can respond more later, I'd be grateful). As a slight tangent because it's not like I am gloing to respond in this vein, but as a question aBout co-D vs. adult frameworks ... . when we say our feelings are not their responsibility, what do we do about the straight up betrayal part? Where he asked me to share his life with him, reassured me no end about how great it would be, & then bailed? That IS his responsibility, isn't it? I get that it's not helpful to process it with him that way, but I'm not wrong for putting blame there, am I? I didn't make up that expectation.

Where I think maybe I might go with him now though, is to say that while he presented himself that way initially, that was not true this time around, & I offered a friendship without any such assurances or promises. Yes his leaving now has triggered that prior feeling of abandonment, and yes I made some assumptions about things continuing this time that I probably had no reason to make.

Yes, it is his responsibility.

Co-dep way: "This was your responsibility and I feel angry/disappointed/hurt/betrayed. Therefore you should own up to your responsibilities and make it right. (Internal dialogue: you better do this because I am afraid to make tough decision I fear I need to make)

Adult way: "This was your responsibility and I feel angry/disappointed/hurt/betrayed. I don't like feeling that way, so this is what I am going to do. (internal dialogue: because I am not afraid to make tough decisions which need to be made)"

An adult decides what to do when someone does not live up to standards you expect. It requires bravery to make tough choices.

 
Similar to what sunflower says... .

We sometimes get betrayed or have the rug pulled under us in life.

How we want to handle this, including what we want to do with our feelings and what decisions we make going forward about any experience we have is ours.

If I am standing close to you and you hit me in the face, I will instantly feel shock, anger and pain.  But beyond the initial instant of 'feeling' of shock, anger and pain... . which is instinctual... . beyond the first initial seconds of that feeling state... . I have an entire universe of which to choose what I want to do with my anger and my pain and how I want to take care of myself going forward given the REALITY presented.

Do I want to stop being in this person's presence so I never get hit again? Do I stand at a safe distance that makes it nearly impossible to be hit again so as to protect myself? Do I attend to myself and take care of myself given that I was just hit?  :)o I set boundaries with the person and act on them consistently? If the person cannot respect my boundary do I take steps to take care of my OWN boundaries?   Do I accept the reality that this person sometimes hits (maybe they have a form of physical tourtettes and they just can't help it!)... . and take steps to make sure I'm safe enough given the reality of this person?  

or... .

Do I want to stay in same or similar close proximity, and complain that I was hit,  but never do anything to attend to myself, eg., I don't take steps to move toward safety, I don't attend to my own injury, I don't accept that you are a person who sometimes hits (as I have experienced it first hand now!) I refuse to make rational (and tuff) decisions based on the reality that this person sometime hits,... . and while staying close and complaining to you about being hit... . bam... . I get hit again!... . so I start to complain louder and harder... . "how dare you hit me... . you are abusive, you are xyz"... . but I'm still standing there, close enough to be hit, I've not taken care of myself, I keep thinking maybe if I talk enough you will stop being a person with tourettes that hits... . I never even step away to attend to my injuries from the first hit or make rational decisions about the reality that I'm standing close to someone who sometimes hits... . But oh I complain each time I'm hit... . I complain and I suffer, and I try to change the person who hits into a person who doesn't hit, and sometimes they promise they won't hit anymore, and bam, they hit again!... . and I get hit some more while I'm complaining and now I am angry because they hit and they promised they wouldn't and they did it again... . and I get more and more angry and more resentful and sometimes I start to hit back too... . they deserved it after all... . they have been pushing and pushing and hitting and hitting no matter how much I do for them ... . they won't stop hitting!... . no matter how close I stand or how much I love them they won't stop hitting!


Your guy pulled the rug out from under you when you had a romance with him. Right?  

You then decided on a modified friendship (knowing he is unstable and changeable) and he pulled the rug out from under you again and moved. 

There is nothing stable about this guy.

He is showing you that he is very changeable he has proven that from his actions from the beginning... . he feels one thing on Monday (you are the love of my life) and then he does something different on Friday based on a different feeling he is having (I love someone else now, I'm  moving now).

This is who he is. This is who he is. This is who he is.

He is correct in that you probably do have your own projections that fuel a movie you have in your head about him that is not REALLY HIM. We all do this to an extent!  He is accusing you of being human.  OWN IT. It's okay!

You wouldn't have invested so much into him emotionally if you knew he might be intenerent? eg. unstable? Really?  I think you knew there were risks there, and you took the risk. This was a risk. And a fairly gutsy move on your part. Own it. Right? Nothing wrong with that... . own it!  

You guys can spar all day and twice on Sunday about whose projecting and who did what to whom... . bla bla bla... .

Get into a place of ownership and self-care and reality testing and tuff decisions and grieve your losses... . and decide if this guy is worth all this hard work... . if he is, cool, if he isn't... . that's okay, too.

It's the only sane thing to do.

You guys are great.  GREAT.  Thank you.  That helps so much.  Thanks for understanding what I did better than I do :)

What's funny about the adult decisions vs co-D decisions framework is that, here, I made adult decisions the whole way.  I just can't explain them to myself :)  And I get worried that maybe they were wrong, that I was supposed to stay closer and keep getting hit.

I guess that's because it's relatively new to me to act that way.  Somehow my superego is guiding me way out ahead of my ability to put words on the reasons for how I handled this.

Hi P&C,

You have got some excellent advice and this has turned out to be a really insightful thread to me.

In the midst of our break-up my ex said to me "the trouble with you is you don't want the man you met". . .I actually said nothing but inside I was seething because my feelings were focused on how I had seen him present himself to me.  Since, I've considered this a lot.  He was right.  The man I met was a womaniser, he was obviously a liar because he was doing that to his partner with me, he didn't have a history of commitment, etc etc.  I decided to ignore those things   and somehow thought it would be all different with me.  It (eventually) wasn't but I really do have to ask myself why I was so surprised.


I think you have to may make him feel safe about this.  He seems bothered that you want more.  As others have said you may have to reiterate your honest feelings that you would have liked a r/s but the acceptance of friendship.


I should imagine he is right about this.  It is most probably just as hard for him to imagine your reality as for you to imagine his.  The thing is now can you meet half way.  At the moment I think he is being incredibly honest, and as another poster said don't be scared of his honesty.  He is offering to try and make you feel emotionally safe - that may not mean giving you all you ideally want (as in what you had at the start) - but as Phoebe said list a few key things, see how it goes.  One of my bad habits is I want everything talked about and sorted yesterday. . .I've realised this stuff can be a long, long process.

Good Luck  

P&C, this is super tough stuff and this right here kinda sums things up (in my mind).

He's moved away and it was his decision, his choice, his right to do so... .   Unfortunately, it's left you with a lot of mixed up feelings, that need your tender loving care.  He can not make this 'right', only you can make this right in your mind.

If it's important for you to have this man in your life as just a friend in some way, the conversations will in time naturally go towards-- 'I went to a fantastic exhibit with so and so (girlfriend?  new boyfriend?  by yourself?' and bought a piece by 'artist so and so'; ever seen his stuff?  Here, I took a pic, what do you think?'

As opposed to, 'No, I can care about someone that doesn't live here, but it makes a difference that you can't attend these great events with me in person, because you betrayed me and moved away.  I haven't quite come to grips with it yet and would like you to understand why I feel this way... . '

It just seems like a lot of pressure and bad vibes for both of you to cope with.

If you want to be his friend, be his friend.  If you want to get things off your chest, then do it for yourself, knowing that he's going to strike back because that's what he does and plan on dealing with the aftermath solo.  There are ways to lessen the blows using communication tools, but the fact remains that the two of you are coming at this from entirely different angles.

I guess, get it into your mind, that unless he moves back, your relationship is going to be way way different than it was at the beginning-- a place that you let go of and offered him a deep viable friendship in its place... .

Is it enough for you?  Is it too painful for you?  Whichever path you choose can you describe it to him in terms that's respectful to both of you, placing no blame or shame on either one of you?  Come at it from a deep place of honesty and feel good that you are able to express yourself in ways that speak of where you are now.  Not necessarily where you've been, but how far you've come?  Can he meet you 'here'?

I love this quote:

“Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow.  Don't walk behind me; I may not lead.  Just walk beside me and be my friend.”

-Albert Camus

Re worrying your decisions were wrong: This is a lifetime of invalidation talking. This is a part of your own core wound. A lifetime of invalidation has made you (naturally) not trust your gut instinct, doubt your decisions, wondering if they are right. This is hard core stuff, P&C. You must work this out in therapy. (Do you have a T? If not, I strongly suggest you get one today - yesterday if possible). It took me a year in hard core weekly therapy and literally learning how to date and countless rises and falls through the process to trust myself, to trust my own decisions, to pick men who can give me what I need and what I know I deserve.  And I still come back here to remind myself of that (the triggers are now mostly caused by one person only - my mother - who now I know is N).

Re making adult decisions the whole way - I am happy to hear that. What decisions would you say those were?

The hard, hard, super hard thing about this to me is that I thought he was that.  After many years of picking men who used and hurt me, I chose him because he presented himself to me as the opposite.  He would care for me, he would prioritize me, this thing between us was so special and unique.  You guys all know how that feels.  But no, I didn't have any reason to doubt it.  And while we were together I was in this happy, calm place of having finally taken care of myself.  I was fine being alone before him.  As I said to him when we first got together, "there's nothing better than being alone, except being in a really good relationship."  I thought that's what we were doing together.

The devastation of what then happened was that I had to apply my new lessons about taking care of myself in a context where I had felt really safe trusting another person.  I didn't expect to have to defend myself against him, too.

SM15000, in my case, he presented himself in a way that I had no clue was false.  He claimed to have been alone, too, waiting for the right person (completely untrue, but I didn't know that).  And on and on.  So yes, that thing your ex said about you not wanting the man you met -- trying to accept the man my ex actually is has been a big process of letting go of many, many aspects of who I thought I fell in love with.  He is a different person.  I have felt that there were core attributes of his that are shared, between the man who introduced himself to me & the man I know now.  Those are the ones I respect and like.


Well, when he first left me, I didn't chase him.  I said I thought we were losing a lot (theme!), we could have repaired and learned and helped each other grow, but "this is all voluntary," and if he needed to go, he needed to go.  I also said it was going to hurt for a very long time -- how right I was.  He made a few noises about changing his mind but then reiterated that, no, it needed to be this way.

Then when he wanted to stay in touch, and kept sending tender indirect overtures which nonetheless did not address what happened, I tried communication about other things, and it proved very painful, so I asked for no contact.  His response was a strange mass of projection and regret.  He wrote as if I were the one who left him, he didn't understand why I hadn't been willing to talk, that this "ordeal had changed [him] permanently & profoundly," and that he was incredibly sad.  I called him because I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on.  We met, we talked about the ostensible reason for the break-up, we resolved it in under 20 minutes, just like I'd always known we could, and he wanted to get back together.  I said I would try, IF he would try to figure out why he had left me so suddenly at the first hard hurdle, and how that could not happen again.  (I knew nothing of BPD at this time.)  He then got cold feet, said a T told him he should not get back in the relationship because, among other reasons, he would end up hurting me again; he said he wasn't sure he even wanted to be in a r/s at this point in his life ... . and instead of slogging through the "baby steps" relationship w/o commitment or clear understandings with one another that he proposed, I told him he should try to figure out what he wanted, and if he wanted me, and had some insight into what had triggered his sudden departure before, I would try again with him.  In the meantime, because I respected the work he was doing, when he asked to stay in touch, I agreed.  And we did for a little bit, till I stumbled on evidence that he was reconnecting in a deep way with his exgf, a woman he had denied any deep involvement with to me -- but I'd learned in the meantime he had discussed marriage and kids with.  At that point I asked for NC because the "special relationship" I thought we were having seemed a lot less special, and he seemed to be not doing the work he'd said he'd do, but rather, just looking for a different woman.  (He did date her in the following months.  I don't know the details but from what I heard from mutual friends, it was a similar path of devastation -- she wanted marriage and kids with him, he made her think he would do that, then he bailed.  For about the 8th time with her.)

We spent 10 months in NC.  He reached out to me once during that time, I considered, and decided I wasn't ready to truly be his friend, and warmly & gently told him that.  When I thought I could just be his friend, I reached out.

So throughout this, for once in my life, I feel like I've recognized that, much as I want it to be otherwise, he cannot be how or who I wanted him to be, and I've allowed that to be true and not tried to change him or make him be what he wasn't.

This juncture is a different kind of challenge, I guess because before, we were dating so when he broke up with me he had to acknowledge it was a change.  This time, his move really did change things for us also, but he hasn't wanted to acknowledge that, and when I try to get it acknowledged, he fights back with "no it doesn't, and anyway, if you want more than this you have ulterior motives."  I think we can sort this out with the communication approaches you all are urging on this thread.  But it's a second big loss for me with this man.  I barely survived the first one -- seriously, it has had such a traumatic impact on my life (yes, SF, I have a therapist, the third in a line since this happened, and all we've achieved is understanding that this abandonment was like a parental abandonment to me -- healing from those is just damn hard, and sometimes, there's not much to do except accept that it happened).

I haven't written back to him yet.  Because I'm taking my time, I sent a short message saying essentially "I am writing you, I'm thinking about what I want to say to match what you offered, and meanwhile, do you want to send me your news?"  His response: "yes, yes I will, within a week."  !  Nothing like a clear marker of where exactly we stand.  Very arm's length right now.  That's hard because while he was here last year, we were in nearly daily contact, mostly initiated by him, and I was his confidante.  We are not there any more, due to a combination of his changes and what I said and his reaction to it.

Thanks to some of you in this thread, I know that this can change and deepen and strengthen, depending on what I put in & what he proves to be willing to put in.  I think I am willing to try, this time, without unbounded expectations of who he can be with me.  But I still have a lot of sadness about his repeated failure to stay.  I will try to deal with that myself and not put it on him.  MaybeSo and others who have had to process that, how do you feel that sadness and still remain in connection to the person who hurt you so much with the gulf between what they asked you for and what they then delivered?

Through grieving. Through grieving your losses.

I grieved the loss of my ex, what I thought we had, who I thought he was, the loss of the kind of r/s I thought we were going to have, the loss of promises not kept, I grieved the loss of him much the way you would grieve the loss of a person who died... . and I also grieved (through this experience) some very old losses, the loss of a father, the loss of a fantasy/projection about father's and lovers and men and what they can or should provide me, or what they promised to provide and never did. As a kid it was quite tragic, devastating really, the losses I suffered... . as a kid I wasn't really even aware of how tragic my losses really were, it was with my ex that I 'felt' it all really painfully.  But I'm an adult now, not a kid anymore, I can manage my losses now, in ways I had no ability to as a child,  and I can provide for myself today the way I couldn't when I was a kid. It didn't feel that way the first 5 years with my ex... . I felt devastated and traumatized... . but I feel really grounded now.  I think it's because I finally really just let go and grieved my losses.  All of them.

P&C, same here as MaybeSo said.  Grieving and lots of it, with faith that it wouldn't last forever, so I let myself do it.  Really succumb to it.  Brought up all kinds of stuff from the past-- from earliest memories childhood up til now), sort of reliving it through a different set of eyes and openness.  Forgiving a lot of things I didn't even realize I was holding deep resentment towards.  It has been the most cathartic experience, I mean... . whoa.

Also, realizing that my very own expectations were way out of whack.  Seriously, I had a way out internal script going on that I wasn't even aware of!  One that told me about all the ways I'm not good enough, and I'd act out/act in/behave/react in certain ways following that stupid script!  When I realized that, it changed my life.  I can change my life!  It's been up to me this entire time that I've been waiting for someone else to do it for me.  What?  Oh my god, I gotta get busy... . There's some really groovy stuff to catch up on! lol

I welcomed it.  I was so tired of wondering what in the world someone else was thinking, doing, feeling bad over it and why why why!

Why am I not wondering about myself?  :)on't I owe it to myself to at least take an interest in um... . myself?  What is it about me that ______? And __________? And _____hit? And ______________?And  _____?  What makes me tick?


Get to know and accept the yourself you've always dreamed to be!  Take the focus off of him (he has BPD, he's going to do hurtful things) and put it smack dab and center on yourself   

Your process sounds so healthy, cathartic & great, Phoebe :)

My problem is different I think.  I knew myself, was good at organizing my life to make myself happy.  What I didn't have was someone to be a primary reference point in all that.  I was fine without it.  But here he came along, promising to be that, and man, it was So Much Fun.  So Much MORE Fun.  Than by myself.  And yes, he proved to have attachment issues, and he couldn't be what he said he would be, and in the process, he sort of stripped all my enjoyment out of my previously meaningful life, which is all still here, it just seems not nearly as meaningful as it used to.

That's the magic trick I can't seem to undo.

P&C, you've mentioned that your ex-husband was abusive, you've been agonizing over this guy for a while now... .   You're a self-admitted codependent in the past... .   Why do you think this is?  Why do you choose unhealthy -vs- healthy?

I, too, thought everything was rosy and that I knew I myself... .   I didn't know ___! lol


Why?  Why were you so quick to fall head over heels for him?  I mean, how long was your romantic relationship, really?   Knowing what you know about him NOW, why is it that your life isn't as meaningful as it was before you met him?

I get it that he presented himself in a certain way; I think it's safe to say that most of our pwBPD presented themselves in pretty amazing ways (mirroring).  Why did we attach to them so strongly though in record time?  If we were all so pulled together with meaningful lives, why didn't we walk the other way when the red-flag started waving around?  Why did we think we could change them back when they kept telling us and showing us in certain ways that they're not really the people that they presented themselves to be?  The people we believed them to be after lots of evidence to the contrary?  What makes it so hard to ACCEPT them as they are?

Why do we lose ourselves in these relationships?

I know why I did.  And once I started putting the puzzle pieces together, life became even more meaningful!


The magic trick is getting to know yourself.  A deeper understanding of yourself.

These relationships are so much more than BPD traits; they're what those BPD traits bring out in us... .   These things have been with us for a long long time... .  

My pwBPD challenged me to look within.  I took him up on it

Yea, I have always been a grounded independent highly functional self aware person, in or out of a r/s,  too.  Maybe a little too independent, as in overcompensating a bit? a bit too defended, pretty careful, pretty controlled... .

Turns out... . i was not as self aware as I thought i was. I knew parts of myself very very well for sure, But there were some other parts of me that I was barely aware of until this relationship messed up my whole schtick. Clearly! Mind blowing, humbling, and very worthwhile... . digging a bit deeper to find those parts.

He doesn't strip meaning from your life, P&C.  The key fit the lock for a reason.

I think you're kind of skimming the surface here.

You guys crack me up.  You're like my big sisters (only I might be older than at least one of you) who don't let me get away with any b.s.

I was attracted to this guy because I thought he was emotionally present, available, cared for me, listened to me, had been strong enough to be alone (ha!), and so on.  He turned out to be very very different.  I didn't stay after this became clear.  And I had all that NC time once I realized I cared too much about someone who had trouble caring about me in return in a recognizable, reciprocal way.  Someone who was going to hurt me if I stayed around to be hit (metaphorically).  This are all traits I'd acquired in the aftermath of my earlier crappy relationships, and in my 5 years alone since the end of my marriage.  I don't think I was repeating any patterns up to that point (the point where he left me).

I guess where one can ask questions is why I came back & tried to be close to him in another way, after he left me.  Arrogant belief that I was so special I could defeat these patterns?  Stubborn need to have been right originally, that there was something worthwhile to this connection that had otherwise crumbled in my hands?  Actual affection for this man?

I think whoever said above that I took a risk when I got back in touch, knowing that he wasn't stable, is exactly right.  I did take a risk.  Maybe there is some instinct in me that says that what is risky is worth having.

But I think mostly, I came to love him when I thought he was the opposite of risky, and that feeling just never altered even when his behavior did alter, enormously.  It's as if, once I've awarded that feeling to someone, I feel I cannot change it.  Hmm.

I did write him an honest, responsibility-sharing, adult-communication reply this morning.  He has not responded.  I can feel myself detaching from his response.  I am really not worried about whatever it is.  That feels good.

I had an interesting feeling for a few minutes tonight.  I suddenly started almost gasping for air, as though I were coming out of some kind of suffocating environment & I finally got to a place where I could breathe.  It felt wonderful.  I think I need to find a different place for the connection with this guy than I have been giving him.  I know several of you on this board undoubtedly have seen that for a long time :)

I've asked myself these questions. . .they're good questions to ask.  I never took my ex back after I ended the r/s but I wanted him back.  I think part of me ended it in the thinking that it would test him and ultimately change him because I was so special.  Plus, although I didn't think I was wrong in my key reasons - he was unfaithful and emotionally abusive - I thought the loss of us would be enough to change him. 


 

This is what I was trying to explain earlier perhaps not very well.  Although my ex showed some dodgy behaviours in the beginning he was brilliant at spinning it so you would think he's the victim.  Then for many years (talking 7/8) he presented himself to me as all I ever wanted. . .when his behaviour altered, as you say, the shock was immense to me. . .I would say it has taken me 2 years for this to really, really sink in.  To change my Prince Charming schema of him    


That is good  |iiii  You may find yourself slipping back in to wondering and worrying. . .I did.  Now I have a little mindful 10 mins and let it go.  Good Luck  

In the beginning, you got the validation, affection, and understanding that you needed your whole life.

The rest of the time, you spent chasing that same validation, affection, and understanding - on a carrot stick, sometimes there - but most of the time just... . slightly... . out of... . reach

And feeling... . hoping... . "if I only did <x> ... . maybe I will finally... . reach it?"

Does that sound familiar?

Does that remind you of anyone else you know? In your FOO perhaps?

I don't recall you saying if you had a T?

Hi guys,

This thread is so very useful to read. Very deep and lots to think about.

Am following this one avidly. Am interested to see how this goes P&C 

Yes, it felt just like that.  Well-put.

But no, I don't recognize it except from other romantic relationships.  No FOO pattern like that.  And yes, so many therapists!  Three since this unraveled two years ago.  The woman I've been working with for the past year is a trauma specialist & is I would say sort of sympathetic to my ex and to our r/s, which is helpful in some ways in that she supports my instinct to be creative and not so black & white in thinking about what this is & could be; but sometimes I think she's as in love with the guy as I am.  Anyway, the idea was to work on what I (and my prior therapist who is not a trauma specialist) identified more than a year ago as traumatic loss.  She's decided this is like the loss of a parent for me and that feels right--a parent who was loving and then disappeared or was taken away.  It has often felt like at that level of frantic-ness and need to restore the relationship.  I don't know why.  Patrick Carnes says it doesn't always originate in FOO patterns, sometimes these losses can originate in adult relationships.

He has not responded.  It was a lot to give him, for sure, and I'm not reaching any conclusions based on that.  But I think I posted above that, a few days back, I wrote him a note letting him know I was working on a more full response, and meanwhile, did he want to update me on his news (what's been going on in the three months since we were last in real communication)?  He answered that he would, yes, he definitely would write--within the next week.

So we are definitely in an odd place.  I know enough to know that it will not stay this way exactly, though.

Yes.  So true.  When he went & got into another r/s almost immediately, instead of doing the work I'd given him the space to do & that he kinda said he sorta wanted to do  , it was a whole new level of shock, because I realized he'd given up on the story of our special-ness and decided maybe he just had the wrong woman.  That was almost too much to assimilate because of course his whole story with me was about how qualitatively different things were with me.

SM, your reflection that you never took him back but you wanted him back is subtle and it captures how vulnerable I've remained to this guy.  I drew some lines but I barely believed in them enough to maintain them, and yes, I drew them in part in order to have a stronger r/s with him.  I didn't leave him to be gone, you know?  I left him to have integrity toward our r/s.

Hi P&C,

I'm glad you are having moments of feeling less detached from the outcome/response. This is a good place to be. Sounds like you had been holding your breath and last night you finally remembered to breath!

Question for you.

Have you shared at all here or on Personal Inventory anything about your FOO?

When you write "no foo" issues, I don't know what that means. Does it mean you were never beaten and locked in the basement? If so, good! Me neither!

But, I really don't know many human beings that have no family of origin issues. I know some human beings that insist they have no family of origin issues... . they often clearly are sitting on some family of origin issues!

Don't we ALL have FOO issues? Not beating/basement stuff, you know... . but family issues. Anxious mom, distant or absent dad, divorce, separation, illness, depression, moving a lot, bullying, painful adolescence... . are you saying you had no emotional or material challenges growing up?

Yeah.  Pretty much.  Three therapists later, no one can identify a thing in my FOO that creates this need to chase the almost-attainable reward of validation and understanding.  One therapist finally said "I know what your problem is.  Everything was TOO nice when you were growing up, so red flags don't appear in your mind when something presents itself as too good to be true."  Meh -- maybe.

I have had a series of betrayal-infused relationships since I was 16 though.  And it seems like maybe I've gotten caught in a narrative where I deal with people I trusted who end up hurting me, by fixing that & getting them not to hurt me, through my extraordinary performance, understanding, merit ... . the same stuff people often develop when they need to secure the love of a parent ... . but that started when I was a very young adult in a series of very unfortunate romantic relationship experiences?  Who knows.

Not sure it matters where it comes from, as much as that I see it for what it is, how it doesn't work, and, um, stop doing it.

Again, my heartbreak this time is that that's exactly what I thought this r/s was: a place where I would be seen and taken care of, not something that would test my tolerance for mistreatment.  That was the theme of us getting together: we were going to step away from past patterns of tolerating abuse, both of us.  And so to find that actually, it would be the uber-betrayal, going from the safest place to utter abandonment in a nano-second -- that was really, really scary to me.

No kidding. I was one of them.

When I was just dipping my toes into this site (while still in r/s with my ex), during one of our countless breakups, I called for a free consultation the woman who shall remain nameless but is well known on this site as she offers opinionated, cut-to-the-chase BPD articles

After 15 min on the phone, she wanted to stop talking about my ex and start talking about me (and me thinking, "huh? why would be be talking about me, isn't HE the problem? That's why I called you, woman!)

Woman: tell me about your childhood

Me: oh, I had great childhood!  (   )

Woman: yeah? What about your family?

Me: Parents divorced, mom pretty much raised me on her own

Woman: And how was that?

Me: Dad is cool, saw him on weekends. Mom, she's great, she did the best that she could. She... . <blah

blah blah for 5 min>

Woman: Sunflower, your issues are not with your dad. Sweetie, your issues are with your mother.

Me: <made face like I just ate a lemon and thought, huhhh? what are you talking about?>

Low and behold... . ahh... . what a FOG that was... . for my entire life, I didn't realize I was in the fog!

Then as time went on, came the funny memories of things that I had at that time thought were normal - endless fights with mom... . me screaming on top of my lungs when fighting with her for as long as I can remember... . once, when I was about 10, even screaming at her in tears, "am I adopted?" (because I could not fathom a mother would treat her own child that way)

And, as they say... . the ball rolled... . :)

P&C,

Did you ever notice the love shown by (either) parent was conditional or that as long as you were 'good' you were praised more. 

Did your parents make you 'feel good' for being good or helpful or understanding?

Believe me, I'd expect to find something like that at this point, and I've looked.  Therapists have looked.  Friends who are therapists have looked.  Nothing there, unless you go back to really primal stuff that is nearly universal, like, I was the oldest kid & when my sister was born I had to wonder whether my parents would still love me, and, my folks believed in crying it out & I undoubtedly had attachment panics as a baby.  Oh, and I read Disney fairy tales, and no one told me they were crap.  Seriously, that may have been the most damaging thing my parents allowed to happen to me.  I tell my daughter they are crap :)

Other than those very common things, nothing.  No divorce, present, loving, supportive parents, no death, no loss, no bullying, always affirmed and validated, told I was loved no matter what I did, blah blah blah.  Seriously.  Maybe the tiniest bit of extra approval for being a good and responsible kid.

I guess I am replying on this just because it can feel confusing on here for people without significant FOO issues, when folks say "this is not about this relationship."  I think sometimes, it actually can be about this relationship, or at least, patterns in adult relationships, where the damage originates.

Again, not sure it matters where it comes from, as much as recognizing what it is and that it needs to be dealt with.  For whatever reason, like SM says, I have a really hard time not wanting this guy to want me.  Not making that some important test of my value.  I spent months last year turning myself inside out to understand him perfectly, to be on the same page with him, to be what he needed me to be and where he needed me to be, in hopes that that would be enough (not necessarily to reunite as lovers, but to get him to trust me, to get him to stop pushing me away).  Ugh.  Hard to think back on it now.  My impulse to over-perform and secure love in that way -- it's bad, no matter where it comes from, right?

On the issue of origin though, could any healthy person possibly not be rocked by someone who very very persuasively appeared to care deeply for us, flipping a switch and telling us they made a mistake, never mind; or when they start acting like all these important things that connect us are not nearly so valuable as they initially believed?  I mean, it's pretty bad in itself, is it not?

I don't think that's universal. . .crying it out isn't attuned parenting.

And the Disney stuff has got a lot to answer for! 

I'm off to see Germaine Greer speak now. . .that'll sort me out  lol

You rock, SM15000!  Seriously.  That exH of yours is missing out.  Which at some level I'm sure he knows.

And if crying it out is enough to do this to a person, I am so, so glad I pursued attachment parenting with my daughter.  No wonder she looks at me like I'm off when I'm sad about this relationship.  Hopefully she can be secure enough in my love to know that she should not mess with people who cannot love her.  At least I can be a massive "teaching moment" for my kid.

My friend who is a therapist just challenged me about why I am trying to repair this -- again.  I said it was because he said he felt safe with me & wanted to make me feel safe; because he discussed his difficulty knowing where the line is between himself and another person, and how to defend that; and because I feel like he was not wrong to challenge me on my having an expectation I had no business having at this point.

But.  I just went back & re-read the whole recent email exchange with him, and really, it sort of reads like having a relationship with myself.  He says various things that fall well short of understanding me or even trying to understand me.  He's annoyed at my efforts and at me.  He makes some bare efforts, true, more than many pwBPD, to explain himself to me.  None, really, to understand where I am coming from.  Not a hint of "I miss you too."  Not a hint of "yeah, I get that that was a lot for you to create a friendship with me after all that ___ that happened with us and I get why it's complicated when I keep leaving, but I sure am glad you stick it out with me."  Nope.  Sort of a tired tolerance for my foolishness, and then at the very end, this breakthrough to a different level of self-scrutiny, where he shares that part of this is his fault and it has to do with policing the line between himself and someone else.  I'm such a sucker for that.

I know right now he is "in love" -- maybe not with a new person, but with a new place, a new plan.  I am not part of that.  So I am hard for him to attend to.  This reminds me a lot of the dynamic you describe with your ex, MaybeSo -- he only sometimes remembers that actually, this is very important.

So hard for me to know what to do with that.

ditto

P&C, no doubt your parents love you, it's nothing like that.  This sentence jumped out at me for some reason though, I don't know.  Were your parents over-protective at all?  Like, compared to your friend's parents?  :)id/do they seem to overcompensate, or anything like that?

It's interesting, is all... .

I used to put my mom on a pedestal and would feel super guilty for even entertaining the thought that she might not have my best interest at heart.  Kinda like, don't even go there.  Stop.  La la la, so anyway... .

I remember being out with another couple and we're all laughing and bitc**ng about various family members, telling our stories of kookiness, when one of the other people laughingly says to my pwBPD, "What's a funny thing about your family?"  He replies, "I can't relate at all to your conversation, my family doesn't have those issues".  I about fell off my chair!  I have experienced some weirdness with one of his family members, first hand.  I know there are issues.  We ALL have them.  Every single family has a dynamic.

I'm not at all saying you have BPD, P&C, please don't take it that way.  It's just that we learn a lot of coping methods in our childhoods that don't necessarily suit us in adulthood, type of thing.

My guy lives in a land of denial.  Same as your guy does. Same as millions of other people do... .  

What could possibly make us exempt from that?

I had to figure it out, cuz I had to know if I was in denial too... .  

Yeah, I know there often is something, but I have looked & looked, with lots of therapist help, & don't see FOO experiences as the root of this need to regain love that I once had that is then "taken" from me.  It's a pattern since I was 16 though.  Again, I don't know that it matters where it comes from, as long as I address it.

I need some help addressing it just now

So I wrote, my honest, open, responsibility-sharing message, two days ago.  He has not responded.  And of course, in the message, I said my safety issue in our ongoing communication is when he disappears and doesn't deal with hard things with me.  I said I didn't know if he could help me with that but if he could, it would really be great.

I said other things too of course, acknowledging what he said about having difficulty finding the line between himself and another person, affirming that I don't want a hypothetical romantic relationship with someone he isn't, I want the actual relationship I have with the person he actually is; and acknowledging that I had let myself assume he would stick around, when we built this cool friendship in the past year, but also acknowledging that unlike last time, when he promised me a life together, he didn't give me any reason to believe he would stay.  I said that my disappointment about that is my own issue to work out.

So this is now testing my detachment from his response.  The non-response is tough for me, though I did tell him I was not talking about small withdrawals, and that I don't need him to share all his processing with me, and I'm OK with space, which is true -- it's just that last time it was 10 weeks and that was different, and here I tried so hard to write in a way he could hear.

I suppose this is like MaybeSo said about being hit -- he has not responded before, it hurts me, now I'm standing around again to see if he does the same thing again he did before.

This is also hard because last year, I did do a lot of walking on eggshells -- I was very careful in how I dealt with him to avoid triggers.  And it worked, to an extent.  We got a lot of fun, non-threatening time together and built something.  Now I'm trying to be myself and express my needs in the r/s and he doesn't like that I am expressing needs and wants.  Or he doesn't like those needs and wants.  And therefore, he is gone.

I need to care less about that, right?  Not more?  I do feel pressure to please him in order to get love.  Right now I am not pleasing him and I am being excluded/cut off.

I am feeling some confusion about the intersection between radical acceptance and "he is who he is," and, "be yourself, and it's OK to say what you feel."  I think I've interpreted radical acceptance and "he is who he is" to mean I am not supposed to express any desire that things be different than how he wants them to be, or any feeling at odds with his optimal arrangement.  Can one of you advanced people help with that -- what is it to radically accept that he is who he is, and still be authentic in the relationship?

Is it that one is honest about one's needs and feelings, even the ones we know the other person is unlikely to be able to handle; and yet, if the other person cannot meet those, you don't insist that they do, you meet them some other way?

What is the point of expressing needs and feelings that we know the other person is unlikely to be able to handle?

P&C, I'm just wondering if there's something you feel you haven't yet said? Is there some "ultimate" message you need to convey to him in order to be at peace?

Do you need something like "validation" from him that you've been deeply hurt?

(Hi KateCat!  Always good to see you!)

No, I don't need that (validation that he knows he hurt me) -- not at all.

I want(ed) to continue the interesting, rewarding r/s we were having over the past year, a r/s that was growing and in which we seemed to be developing increasing trust.  All that got thrown off kilter when he left town and changed our communications dynamic (went from frequent in person meetings, daily emails, near daily texts about small things like "I bought that computer" or "it's snowing!" and medium things like "read this quote -- what do you think it means?" to big things like "I shared my work with this art curator and she was critical and that was hard to hear" ... . to no texts, email every few days, obviously, no in person meetings), all without seeming to register that that was a big change.  Then announced he wasn't coming back, even though when he left, the last plan was that he was probably coming back.  Then I asked some questions about why he was trading in the old for the new, and he just abandoned the conversation and, for all intents & purposes, the friendship.

What I want is a meaningful relationship with him, if that is possible -- to find the ground we can share that works for both of us.  It is not clear if that exists.  I'm trying to find that out.  My way of trying to find it out is to have a conversation that he seems somewhat open to having -- that in his most recent message, he seemed to invite -- but seems to find very difficult too.

Who could resist inviting communicating with you?  :) Probably not even him.

This could go on for years!

We can also radically accept ourselves, which helps us be authentic.

Walking on eggshells, saying it the way we think they want to hear it, keeps us from being our authentic selves. It's a guessing game more than actual growth. If the pieces don't add up, where's the line between persistence and wasting time? There's a difference between doubting a connection and there not being one.

If we're really being ourselves, grinding away or walking away are one and the same. It's all heading in the same direction. When there's a choice, the answer is "Who am I really?"

Have you seen a new book out called 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist'?  I have read parts - it may be helpful to you.


There is nothing wrong with expressing your feelings to him but you have to do without implying he has to change or do something about it.  You'll have to decide your wants and actions but sort of,

I want you to keep in contact more goes to - I've decided that I need consistent contact in a friendship to feel emotionally safe

I want you to trust me more -  It's important to me to have friendships where people build trust

Why are you trading in the old for the new - I've realised that friendship may involve changes but some consistency is important to me

You can't change him or expect him to make you feel better, that's the radical acceptance but you can still hold your beliefs & values and remain in control of them.  You may not become so invisible to him then  :light:

You are getting there on radical acceptance, but not quite:

It means accepting that he is who he is, including wanting various things he wants.

It means accepting that you want what you want also.

If there is a conflict between what he wants and what you want, accept it as well.

It doesn't mean when there is a conflict between his desires and your desires, don't say anything about it. (That is a failure to be authentic in the relationship)


Yeah, expressing needs and feelings that somebody isn't likely to be able to handle is a problem. That's where the tough choices for you come in:

You can let go of those needs and keep the relationship. You can look elsewhere for those needs, and keep the relationship without them. Or you can test the relationship... . and it will be stronger if he passes the test, and likely fail or be much reduced if not.

Whatever... . I see you working hard on your tough choices. Good work there.   Not easy work.

P&C, this is super hard because your relationship is down to email only.

Is this enough for you?

Can you continue to be interested in his thoughts and endeavors without being a physical part of them?

It seems that the common ground at this time anyway (Radical Acceptance), would be sharing a friendship through email.  And not everyday emails.  Things change when friends are no longer in our sphere.  Every day life gets in the way of connecting with people on a daily or even weekly, monthly basis.

What does friendship mean to you?  Have you asked what it means to him?

Put yourself in his shoes for a sec... .

Here you are out traveling around having a ton of new experiences!  You've got this friend back home that you used to go out with, but promised you an enduring friendship with no strings attached in its place, no ulterior motives, just pure friendship.  Everything seemed so cool, although you could somewhat 'sense' there was more going on underneath with them.  You backed off a little whenever you sensed it and everything was cool again... .   A little drama here and there concerning your behavior and how it bothered them, but not enough to end the friendship or anything.

Then you find this pretty amazing town you hadn't even imagined being drawn to.  You can't wait to tell your awesome friend about it!  Hmmf, they don't feel as enthusiastic about it and start questioning why in the world you'd do something like that?  And get all deep about it, saying the 'love' word and whatever... .   You're over it.  You just want to feel good about something you're doing for yourself and thought you could share it with your friend.  You spend a few days there feeling icky about something, not necessarily about what your friend said, but the place doesn't feel right for whatever reason and you're off traveling some more... .

Out of the blue after a couple of months your good friend sends an email!

In it, it says that they don't feel good about not connecting with you.  They want you to know why they don't feel emotionally safe because of some pretty heavy feelings on their part about your leaving tendencies.  You have NO idea what to do with their feelings, can't really make sense of them, it's coming off like you're 'in a relationship' and they're expecting you to be able to share your feelings concerning theirs!  When you don't know what their feelings really are or what they mean!  Confusion!  What are you supposed to do or say when they're right, you don't live near each other anymore.  You can't do those things together.  Yep.  Okay... . Do you say, 'sorry I hurt your feelings?'  You don't know what to do?  You're not moving back anytime soon.  You just ignore it after a while, can't deal with it.

They didn't act this upset when you actually left.  What gives? 

What happened to that enduring friendship that was promised?

         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking at it from this possible point of view, does it give you a clearer perspective as to how to address certain things and let your feelings be known in an honest way while respecting and Radically Accepting what is?

I'm sure that is how it looks like from his perspective.  What it leaves out, of course, is that he pulled me very close & treated me like much more than a friend for many months -- months of special plans and conversations and topics and meeting family and so on -- that he initiated.  Until traveling & then the new place took the place of that.

That is the issue I am processing.  This was like another breakup except, because of the "friends" label, he didn't have to account for stepping away from it for no particular reason.

When I asked in an earlier thread, Phoebe, how you & others who have these sort of undeclared special relationships would react if your pwBPD just suddenly moved away & wanted to pretend that you'd only ever really been email buddies -- just at the point where you'd made some seeming breakthroughs through a lot of mutual effort in the relationship -- you said it would be close to over for you. You'd explain this isn't what you had in mind, you'd retreat to a very superficial level of engagement, and that would be it.

Maybe you are asking me if that's what I want to do, too, when you ask me if email is "enough" for me?  Well, sure, it would have been enough if we were normal friends.  We were not normal friends -- as you said once, this is not a normal friendship with an ex.

So I think my answer is yes and no.  Yes, I probably will continue to email him.  No, it is not enough for me to continue to care about him in the way that I have.  He broke things with me, again.  Even though he is now in full retreat from any acknowledgement that it was ever any different than this, could have been expected to be any different than this.  I know differently.  I thought this was special.  I've been reminded that it wasn't really all that special, to him.

He responded to my message, BTW, after several days.  He said it seems we both projected onto the other & were both disappointed.  I am too exhausted to ask what he meant by that, nor, I think, does he wish to be asked.  He moved on to report his news, shifting into more normal communication, though I can tell from the font type that he cut & pasted the "news" section from another email message (so that's making me feel pretty special, too).

We're done with the drama.  And I am not going there the next time when he suddenly starts acting like I am super-special and important again.  Just not going to follow.

|iiii

We don't need anybody else to tell us or act in ways that show us how special and important (or not) we are, P&C.  When we have a solid view and foundation of ourselves + a decent understanding of what personality disorders are all about, it makes it easier to separate what's our stuff from their stuff.

Grieve the loss... .   The good stuff is real.  The bad stuff is real.  The bad stuff doesn't magically go away because the good stuff makes us feel amazing.  And the amazingly good stuff doesn't go away on account of the bad stuff.  It is what it is and we're a part of it, like it or not. 

We  c o n t r i b u t e  to the dynamic, we're 50% of it.

All of the lessons and tools and info available here helps us with all relationships, not just BPD ones.  Mostly they teach us how to have a better relationship with ourselves  

And that will get us places we never dreamed imaginable :)

This is a horrible realisation because it seems so real.  I said much the same thing to my ex and that it was a hard lesson to learn.

Now, I can see it is not it was not special but that it cannot be maintained.  It won't make you feel any better at the moment P&C because it is raw. . .and the fact that you went in for another round after 10 months of NC and feeling more enlightened and aware of the issue might make it doubly hard to bear 

But, I think when you process this you will heal. . .and in a different way, a stronger way. . .and whether you keep contact or not, you will be able to manage this much better 

Hey P & C,

I knew someone who had an idyllic childhood.  She was 26 and pregnant with her second child when I met her.  She had relationship from 15 to 18 with insecure controlling high-school boy.  She met her ex-husband in college, married and had first child.  He cheated and proly had BPD traits.  She then started a relationhip with father of second child.  He is emotionally cut off and narcissistic.  When I met her, she was pregnant and very preoccupied with her partner.  Over time, she was able to emotionally detach from her fantasy relationsip and then from him as a partner.  Why did she have this pattern with A-hole partners who were immature and not able to reciprocate in a healthy romantic relationship when she herself had parents who were great role-models and she had a very strong sense of herself? Hmm... . not really sure, but some possibilities are:

-having a "serious, grown-up" relationship as a young teenager may have a big impact in influencing our actual grown-up relationships b/c it sets a pattern.  It can be positive if our partner is loving  and allows for individuality or it can be negative if not.  My son has been dating his girlfriend since he was 15 and they are inseparable.  I have monitored the "emotional environment" of the relationship and they are open about when they have problems.  This situation is rare.  The kids are pretty together, all parents communicate, and one of the kids has a mom who does this for a living.  As a mom I am not crazy about it, but it is reality and I make the best of it. 

-She is the oldest girl with a younger brother.  Maybe she is oriented to "caretake" men (I have a little brother and I know I have this orientation)

-She had self-esteem issues right around the time she met her teen bf and they seemed to be alleviated by the relationship, so maybe she made the association of "having a romantic relationship makes me feel better about myself"

So IMO, it is possible to set this up without major FOO issues.

With that said, are you happy?

I mean is your preoccupation with him/relationsip with him intruding into normal functioning?  Is affecting your mood to the point that you are having a hard time functioning or other relationships are suffering?

If you are generally happy, functioning well, and have a good quality of life, I don't see anything wrong with your preoccupation.

Do you want to reduce or eliminate your preoccupation at this time?  If you do, then why?

You are having a relationhip with this man.  It may be unaknowledged, lopsided, and based on fantasy, but it is a relationship.  I guess whether it actually is a relationship could be debated, but it is a life experience for you and are learning things from it.  So it is useful to you and has purpose.

Take care :)

These relationships can assist you in strengthening your own developmental gaps for the very reason that they are so hard!

An ordinary childhood may simply not be enough in our current culture to strengthen a healthy sense of self... . with the loud messages we get 24/7 from Disney and Hollywood and Madison Ave... . don't most kids grow up thinking on some level that a huge part of life is about finding that special 'other' to complete you? And to do that you have to be pretty enough, witty enough, sexy enough, thin enough, bubbly enough, alluring enough, smart enough, wear the right clothes, drive the right car, make enough money... . To stay grounded and to have a solid sense of your own worth in commercial America today would take a very extraordinary upbringing indeed.

Non clinically, your guy is a commitment phobe. Unable to settle down, a Casanova, a player, a heartbreaker, a wanderer, an escape artist. They are out there. See the movie

Somethings Gotta Give, Jack Nicholsons character.

In a therapists office she might make a chart note regarding 'attachment issues'.

No matter the label or variation on the theme, this style of relating has been around forever.

It felt special so it was, it just doesn't last. He has attachment issues, so he doesn't stay.

But, if he didn't have attachment issues, it still would not have stayed the same. It still wouldn't felt SPECIAL forever.

You stay together, you get married, now your lives are about daily living, kids, a mortgage.

You snore, he farts in bed. How many married couples who STAY wake up and have that

rarified sense of how incredible they feel  and how romantic and juicy and swept away this

relationship makes them feel?  Probably zero. Real life and real relationships do not make us feel fantastic and special in  that way.

Because bottom-line it's our job to assign meaning and value to our lives, that's an inside job.

It is painful to have loved them lost... .

It is also painful to have never loved at all.

On this board, we have all at least had that dream experience of falling in love and feeling we were part of something special... . many folks would kill just to have that feeling for even one day!

But it never really lasts like that, anyway. Even if he were to stay.