BPDFamily.com

My dBPDh went on a rant lately about how "completely incompatible" we are. I validated that he felt that way and then inquired as to what sorts of things made him draw that conclusion. I got two lists: one of things he wants that are somehow incompatible with being in a r/s with me (not really), and one of things about me that bother him. Let me break this into two parts then... .

1. The incompatible items don't have anything to do with me. e.g. He would like to live outside of the city rather than in the middle of it. We have discussed this before and, fact is, I would prefer to live outside the city too. Also, he would like to raise ducks. Odd but, again, so what? I don't care if he wants ducks. I like ducks. There is no actual incompatibility here. How do I address this without invalidating him? He's convinced these things mean we should break up. Obviously there is more to it. I think he's projecting his frustration that he doesn't already have these things onto me. Maybe?

2. The things about me that bother him don't actually describe me. e.g. He says that he likes the outdoors and I "hate getting dirty". First of all, why would my wanting to stay clean make any difference to his enjoyment of the outdoors? Secondly, I am the one who keeps signing us up for outdoor activities, which he enjoys, and many of which involve both the outdoors and getting quite dirty btw (e.g. paddleboarding on the lake, trail runs, mud races, etc.) Well, he says he'd like to go camping but that I don't like to camp. In 12+ years he has never once asked me to go camping. I've never really been camping and so I have no real opinion on it at all. In fact, he said he didn't really enjoy it that much anymore because it's too uncomfortable, too much work, etc. He went backpacking in January (alone) and came back complaining about how uncomfortable he was and, I quote, "This is why I hate camping." I reminded him of this. Response? "Well maybe sometimes I just want to be miserable and uncomfortable." Okay then, I'm not stopping you. So, again, I'm seeing projection here. But he's using his projected image as a rationale behind us being 'incompatible'. How do I stop this? Or, at the very least, how do I avoid validating the invalid without being invalidating?

Basically, how do I block the projecting?

Dont, you are trying to respond to the illogical with logic. Can't be done, it will maneuver you into a position of JADEing, you on the defensive, and him into a position of leading.

Its's nonsense, you dont have to validate everything. Especially in the current situation you dont want to be bogged down in side issue irrelevancies. Stick to the black and white issues of you current problem, he is simply trying to muddy the water.

Its not so much that you block the projecting and other illogical things that he says, you just detach to the point where you recognize and don't take it personally.  You kind of get to the point where you recognize what's happening, and it loses a lot of its effect.   

This makes sense. So how would you suggest I respond? I mean, I have to say something in the midst of this conversation, and I'd prefer not to let him think I agree... . Part of the problem is that I don't KNOW what the black and white issues are. I actually have no idea what the problem is (aside from the fact that he's dissociated and has no idea what he wants).


I'm detached enough to not be personally upset or offended. I realize that the issue isn't me - or the ducks, or the dirt. Where do I go from there? If I go along with the conversation, as I've done with various matters in the past, he tends to entrench the idea and decide he's right.  The last thing I need is H to decide that I think we're incompatible.

~~~

Here's an interesting thing that came up in conversation with a friend today. This 'identity' he's currently adopted - camping, country duck lover - was the persona he had while he was with his previous long-term gf (before I met him, ~14 yrs ago). They were together about 5 years and he thought they'd be together forever, except he dissociated on her, left her for another woman (sound familiar?) and, when he came back around, she told him where to shove it (go figure). He never really got over it. Is it possible that he's lost me as his 'mirror' and so he's reverted back to the last stable 'mirror' identity he can remember? Not that I have any idea what to do with that information now that I've thought of it.

I think you can drive yourself NUTZ trying to analyze this.

My participation in a conversation of this nature (if on my A game) would be:

Hmmmm... .

Interesting... .

Sounds like you need to do some camping... .

Sounds like you need to buy a duck... .

Sound like you need to get dirty... .

Sounds like you feel we are incompatible... . I feel differently!

I'm not sure reflective listening actually reinforces behavior he isn't going to act on or not anyway. It doesnt imply agreement to let him know you hear his feeling. If he really feels you guys are incompatible, and you fight him over that feeling, in my experience THAT invalidation is what helps them feel even more like there's irreconcilable

differences. Being heard and understood and feeling safe is pretty intoxicating... . Validation and reflective listening is not the same as agreeing.  also, if he is truly disassociating it may be game over until he's himself again... . there  is little you can do to control  that ... . but staying relatively calm won't make it any worse.

Just keep reflecting back what you hear him say. Try to stay calm.  Add your take on it as needed ( i hear you feel XYZ, I respect your feelings,  and I feel differently... . I feel very compatible with you).

Do not JADE.

You can't control what he does.

Already there! lol But, yes, I agree, there's only so much that can be done. Then again, I don't really have a lot else to do while I play the waiting game with the dissociation.

I think I'm trying to clarify in my mind how to disagree with him while still validating him. I like your examples, MaybeSo. I told him that he should go camping and that ducks are very nice. He told me I don't understand. I agreed that maybe I don't. I said I thought we'd discussed a lot of these things before (like, verbatim, before we got married - didn't say that bit) and were comfortable with our differences. He said that was a long time ago. I agreed with that.

Yesterday he hinted at possible reconciliation in the fall. Today he told me that our r/s was "like flogging a dead horse." Then he proceeded to make plans to go for a run with me tomorrow morning. Then he told me we have no mutual interests. We then discussed doing yoga on Friday and a renting movie we both want to see.

I'm having trouble with one of the lessons. I read somewhere on here that it's invalidating to follow up validation with any sort of "but" statement. Like the 'but' will negate the preceding validation.

So I'm looking at something like this:


Is it invalidating? It's essentially saying, I know you feel xyz, BUT I feel abc. Or, I hear you say lmnop BUT I don't agree with your take on it. Is this okay?

Well, the point I want to get across is that emotional validation is about letting a person know you "get" how they are feeling. It's sometimes referred to a "feeling felt". It's not about wholesale agreement or walking on eggshells. It's not being a doormat, though it wise to choose your battles carefully.

It feels good when we feel "felt".

I work with a lot of folks who struggle with really bad habits: like serious drug addictions etc.

When an addict says I feel I will die without my drug, I validate that is truly what it feels like, " of course it feels like you will die without the drug... . it must feel incredibly painful and

frightening."

In the past I use to do intellectual sparring;

You won't really die w/out the drug

It's your drug use that is killing you

That's not true

Logically, you are more likely to die from continued use of the drug then stopping it.

All of those statements are arguably true and sound; they are also emtionally invalidating

and it gives the person a sense that they are not being heard and understood.

Do you know that just validating the feeling instead of arguing or sparring over it is

So much better and moves things along faster and builds so much more trust and rapport.

It also is HUGE time saver; i use to waste so much time with intellectual arguments. It's a

waste of time to argue and then waste more time repairing the bad ju ju created from the

argument.

No where in my validation do I endorse drug use; I'm simply validating a real feeling, which

is very soothing. They are usually able to hear other truths or observations sooner and with

more calm if

they are feeling felt; eg;, of course it feels like you will die without the drug. That is normal.

AND I see that the  drug is already causing damage (truth... . and I am not in anyway

disagreeing with the original feeling... .  It's not a "but", it's an "and". ). Both are true. I am not sparring.

Also... . you will at times need to speak your truth or assert yourself, even if he doesn't like it.

To always refrain from doing so is just walking on eggshells.

I hear you feel we are incompatible... .

Might lead to... . and I feel really compatible with you ( if that's TRUE for you).

Is it?

Now, here's the rub. Don't say it just to spar.

In reality, there are likely parts of him that feel incompatible for you, too, at times. No?

You dont seem to feel especially compatible with his current behavior, for example. Right?

No relationship feels 100 per cent compatible all the time. Right?

Assert yourself if it's authentic for you or it's a boundary.

There is no BUT in this statement. The "but" tends to indicate they are wrong, and your view is the correct one, rather than the two view points can coexist.

eg. Think of it like arguing about music, he is telling you that heavy metal is the only true music, and you prefer country music. Using the but example you might have said something like "I can see you like heavy metal music BUT country is better">>red rag to a bull, not going to resolve anything. Better "I can see you like heavy metal music, I really prefer country". You dont need to back that up, and need say no more, your preference is not a reflection on what he likes, its just you being truthful about you

I saw your middle post this morning.

He sounds pretty confused... . we are incompatible... . flogging a dead horse... .

Let's see a movie!

Is he feeling scared?

Is he feeling confused or frightened?

If you felt you were incompatible with him, what would that feeling lead to? Frustration? Anxiety? Panic? Sadness?

It sounds like his brain is working really hard and switching gears a lot, he may be feeling mentally exhausted and very conflicted. For most people, this can be very distressing... . disassociating can be a vacation from that tangled mess.

Just remember... . It feels good to feel "felt". It's very soothing. It can help organize and clarify our complex emotional states.

People sometimes feel very complex emotions about an important relationship. Love, hate, need, fear, boredom, obligation, all of it can be in there together.

Waverider - thank you for the clarification re the 'but' statements. That makes sense to me. I think that what the other article was also expressing was that focusing too much attention on how WE feel, rather than simply validating how THEY feel, sometimes comes across as invalidating. Like they will only hear our 'I' statements and miss the validating part altogether. I think what I need to focus on, in light of what you and MaybeSo have written, is making sure that I validate him first (and often!) so that I can stick my own truth on in small portions at the end. Does this sound like a good approach?

MaybeSo - Thank you for your responses here! I've been finding this very helpful. You're right, part of the point of validation is just to return the other person to 'baseline' - to bring the level of arousal down so that we can move on to more constructive things. I tend to forget this bit. Oops!


Have I mentioned that I'm a professional arguer? lol (But it is actually true, I get paid to disagree with people.  ) The problem is that it kind of goes all or nothing for me - I'm either methodically pulling apart an argument, trying to mediate an agreement, or I've turned it all 'off' and I'm a bit of a doormat. I'm not so great with my validation skills (clearly).

I like this idea of it feeling good to feel "felt"! It's so true.

He is definitely confused. I don't think he's able to sort out the mess of his feelings or attribute them to their source. So if he's stressed about one r/s he carries that over to every r/s. I found out today that he stopped talking to or emailing one of his friends. She's very nice and he really enjoys hanging out with her. He hadn't respond to any of her attempts to contact him for a week and a half (usually he answers her within 24hrs)! She got worried/angry and finally sent a drunk email basically saying "what the heck?" He said he was stressed. So it's not just me. what the heck indeed!

I actually am not sure if he really thinks we're incompatible so much as that's all he could come up with in an attempt to figure how he feels. There's a lot of stress coming from his other r/s - a lot of confusion, frustration, anger, anxiety, and jealousy there. I think it's getting projected onto me but actually has very little to do with me. Which just brings me back to my original problem of trying to block the projection. I, and my r/s with H, are taking the brunt of the fallout from this other r/s. I think it's easier for h to assign his feeling here rather than fight with the other person.

This has been a common theme with PDw also lately.  When ever she brings it up however none of it makes sense too.  After much thought and doing as best as I can to get myself into the PD mindset.  I have come to the conclusion that when they say that we are incompatible I believe that what they are truly trying to say is that they are PD and we are not... . Now that's logical... . Seems to make sense... .

lol lol lol  |iiii

Thanks for the laugh, it's made my day :)

Made me laugh, too!  :)

The other thing to watch for is which ones need your truth, and which don't. Consider the great examples that MaybeSo provided:


Note that for 5/6 statements, validation was enough--no need to even mention your interest (or lack of interest) in ducks. The only one that was important enough to speak your truth on was the incompatibility! ( lol Don't say you're right, you have BPD and I don't!)

Omg - I just imagined telling H that he's right because he has a PD and I don't! lol Can you even imagine? hehehe

So I was reading the workshop thread that got bumped up here on the Staying board (as well as its root thread). Very helpful! Here's my next thing then: I think it is actually useful to me to know where H is coming from. So, while I hear all the time that I should 'stay out of his head', and I do get that concept, I think that it is important sometimes for us to understand where some of the feelings are coming from. It's 'Level 3' validation - to be able to figure out the actual feelings, the primary emotion, rather than just the secondary spewage.

(Linehan's 'levels' concept outlined here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation.msg810293#msg810293 )

I've noticed myself that if I validate the 'surface' feelings (eg. anger, frustration) I am often met with "you don't understand anything." Hmm... . So if he's going on about how incompatible we are, what if I tried this:

"I'm hearing you say that you feel we're not compatible. It must be very frustrating and confusing to love two people who are so different from one another. Do you feel like you have to choose sides?" I might follow up later with, "Are you feeling frustrated by your options? Maybe we can come up with some new ideas that will take some of the pressure off." (He keeps telling me he feels pressured to make decisions "about everything" and that this is stressing him out.)

The thing is, I wouldn't have thought of these things if I didn't guess where his head was at regarding the relationships. It's no good for me to validate the invalid. He is not actually angry at me or frustrated with me, etc. Steering the validation so that it points to the actual source of his distress seems like it would be both more validating and also help him to then go deal with his emotions (once he's been helped to realize what they are). Does this make sense? I also know that the gf is extremely invalidating - this is constantly raising his level of dysregulation. Ugh! Hoping some of these skills can counter some of that!

Sometimes just asking lots of questions while volunteering few answers is an easy principle to adopt. Its not answers they are after, but a mechanism for letting out the thoughts, a form of soothing. This is true for most people, pwBPD are just more sensitive to potential judgements.

A jumbled kind of thinking aloud if you like. Whereas we tend to think and consider before we speak and engage others. But they may think aloud which drags in your input and can disrupt or invalidate their undeveloped thought process. By them actively dragging you into this thought process it kind of self sabotages it, and off it goes on a tangent. So prompting questions are the go here rather than offered solutions.

This is SO TRUE! I've noticed that H tends to just give me a sort of stream-of-consciousness sometimes. Those 'conversations' generally go very badly. Afterward, he'll tell me that he was "just trying to tell me how he feels" - but there's no editing and the thoughts conflict, and there are random 'facts' thrown in, etc. I had always assumed that whatever he said was what he meant to tell me. Now I'm thinking that, no, it's just whatever pops into his head at that very moment. It's sort of 'mid-stream' so-to-speak. No wonder it always goes nowhere. More questions. Gentle nudges. Got it!