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And to think at one time I believed I understood about boundaries! Ah to be young and foolish again... .

If I try to bring anything up about the 2 of us like "what could we do to learn better communication that doesn't make either person feel defensive?" I get The Shut Down: "Just Stop." I hate this, I readily admit, since it feels very authoritarian and not the least bit like a partnership. I have tended in the past to just walk away since if I don't he'll go into the RageMasterSupreme and roar at me for making everything something HE has to change and let me tell you while i'm at it all the things YOU do to make ME upset!

i'm better at dealing with the roaring since I've learned that defending the truth just leads to more roaring... . I don't always catch right away that I should "take a time out" and have often realized i'm still sitting there like a pup who just got yelled at, with my head down and my ears back... . but one step at a time, right?

The big question for me is how not to give him what he wants (to make me go away) since I feel that would be rewarding negative behavior, right? while still preserving my own needs to speak without getting roared at.

Thoughts? Please?

Well, with boundaries you aren't really doing anything for him (although you having healthy boundaries is good for him too).  The best way to enforce boundaries is to allow the other person to simply feel the natural consequences of their behaviors.  People who yell and scream at others find themselves standing there alone pretty quick.  Maybe worry less if he's getting what he wants when you take a time out, just do it for you. 

Dreamflyer

Yup... . been there, done that.  My dswBPD told me recently during one of his rages that nobody likes me.  Nobody loves me.  Everyone thinks I am a terrible person.  Everyone hates me.  I am nobody.  I am not important.  I am toxic to him and everyone around me.  He does not want me in his life.  He hates me and never wants to talk to me again.

What can one possibly say to this kind of verbal assault?

He was looking for a fight and I did not give him one.  I said nothing.  Clearly he was projecting feelings about himself on to me. 

We talked about him and his unhappiness with life in general.  Then I left.  It took me 3 attempts to get out the door.  He was venting big time.

To make a long story short... . he called me the next day.  Like nothing had happened.  I have learned how this works and do not let it upset me.  It is part of the illness.

I just think he'll get his 2 year old tantrum way by me leaving. Would it be bad for me to say "i'm going to keep bringing this up till you listen because it's important for us to be able to talk about these things." or something like that? And then leave for my own sanity?


Yep, that "like nothing had happened" part is crazymaking. My H will usually say something like "and now you'll treat me different for 2 weeks!" which used to tap into my Guilt About Everything "gift" thus making me go "no it'll be fine." When lo and behold, things SHOULD be different because he's just been a gigantic behind to me.

So much still to learn... .

Dreamflyer

When your H tries to play the "guilt" game, I would suggest you not tell him things will be fine.  This is unconsciously condoning his behavior.  In times like this, silence speaks volumes.  Anything you say will only be fuel for the fire.

Important:   You do NOT have to make him feel better... . he needs to learn that unacceptable behavior has consequences AND that he is not the only one with feelings.  

I agree, it is fine to say that a topic is important and you will discuss it with him later when he has calmed down and is more receptive.  Then be sure to do it.

We all continue to learn how to deal with BPD.  Every day is a challenge.  This disorder is what it is, but at least we have each other, and there is great comfort in that.

We are so glad you are here, and we will do our best to help and support you.  

You are now part of the family.

i sometimes feel as if the manipulative aspects of disagreements aren't fully recognized. of course it's great to say that you could just leave or walk away if a pwBPD starts to get out of hand, but many times this is specifically what they want. walking away to defuse the situation isn't giving them consequences that at some later time they will process and think "perhaps i shouldn't rage so that she won't go away". i think often times they behave the way they do specifically to tell you forcefully--"shut the ef up and go now, i've won and furthermore your opinion isn't worth a damn to me". in this case leaving just emboldens them, now they know it works--but not really a big deal that they've "won", there's no winners here obviously. but for the nonBPD i feel being forced to shutup/grin-and-bear-it/be the "bigger person" = repression = emotional abuse which has long term affects. walking away to defuse things, while utterly necessary if your safety is at risk, can completely wreck you down the line when you can't express yourself.

in my situation, the most painful moments in my memory aren't from where she was raging, which i could later externalize as her issue and not mine. the most painful and frustrating was me never being able to express myself. every tactic was used to get me to shut up. to let her have her say and then to cut me off before i could express anything. no matter how calm or what my demeanor was my needing to discuss things were just portrayed as me being an instigator while she was already "so over it". as time went on i learned to control my words, my tone and posture and emotions. in a sense i feel i became better able to stay calm and communicate better. awesome, except i know at least some times this just pissed her off even more. and this is when i could start to see that the argument wasn't at all about communicating for her or about expressing her opinion about something, it was simply a way for her to be mean, or for her to try and prove that i was the one being abusive.

DreamFlyer99 what i can say is that i developed an acute sense of being grounded yet detached that allowed me to navigate during these arguments. i say grounded meaning present, aware and on your toes; detached meaning you're able to react less emotionally after realizing that a lot of the raging has a purpose. what if before your H's temper gets out of hand you could keep calm and composed and say "i truly don't want to make you upset, and if you are this is ok. but i'm not leaving, ok. i'm going to stay right here and if you like you can leave and i will understand and won't hold it against you." thing is if you do this you'd have to feel very safe and secure i wouldn't of course recommend doing this if you are in *any* way in danger ok? what i mean is, i had to find ways to stay calm, and then to call my ex out on her bluff. but this 'calling out' needed to be done in a calm way, b/c if not it would give them an excuse to call you some kind of abuser and change the subject.

again i want to say to be careful, being a woman with an angry man i want to make sure you are completely safe, first and foremost. in my situation, being a man with an angry woman i actually had the opposite issue. my ex started pulling this ptsd stint sometimes where she would act terrified like i was going to physically assault her or something. of course this worked on me many times, she'd cry lips trembling "just leave! i can't take it any more!" and i'd stuff my anger and leave b/c of course i would never want to frighten or provoke her on this level. i can't say she never had a real episode. but what i am telling you is that after listening to my inner voice i could see her whole frightened of me ptsd act as a fraud, as a way to punish me and get me to shut the ef up and leave without being able to express myself. a way for her to be the boss, take control; shut me down emotionally and move me out of my space physically. i explained in previous posts how i found out but feel i'm writing a lot so let me know if interested. but how i found out was to first recognize an inner voice telling me the truth of the situation. then i was able to stand my ground and not leave, as i was able to handle the situation calmly enough so she couldn't use me being an abuser or instigator as an excuse any more.

i'm so so sorry you had to hear your H say those words to you. even if you don't believe those words, and do *not* believe them DreamFlyer99 you are a gorgeous golden goddess!   but even if the words themselves don't impact you, the vile intent behind them hurts coming from someone you love so much. i truly wish you the best! if anything i've said before about staying calm and standing your ground interests you let me know and i'll try and explain more

THANK YOU, MammaMia! I so appreciate your warm welcome. :)

I was going to just copy the most important part of what you said into this reply, but it was ALL so good... . I am actually learning to stop my old soothing ways, but it's a heckuva process. I think the last "episode" we had was the first time I ever DIDN'T say "no, it'll be fine" or anything close to that. For this I thank my T who has helped me listen for that "inner voice" of which goldylamont speaks. I think that sort of response was just my confused way to survive so he'd let up, but slowly I learn what things actually "feed the need" for someone else to soothe him. My T says "he wants you to be his mother." (Well no WONDER i'm not getting any 'intimate' behavior from him!)

Thanks for verifying that things SHOULD INDEED be different after he's been a ginormous hiney to me.   And he so does not get that my feelings matter too, or that I even HAVE feelings to consider. That was such a surprise to realize after more than 30 years together, but then I didn't know myself that my feelings mattered. Let's just call me a "late bloomer" in the Mental Health department. LOL!

GOLDYLAMONT!

EXACTLY! I didn't copy all of your post for obvious reasons,  but OH MY GOODNESS that's exactly what I was feeling! Thank you for putting it into words and for being so supportive! (How DID you know i'm a "gorgeous golden goddess"? LOL)

My H generally isn't a physically endangering person, he was last year when his psychiatrist suggested they "see what you look like withOUT meds." (I still maintain any psych who says that must have an extra room in their own stinking house to let him stay!) And because I was so taken aback by his more threatening stance because I did find it scary, when we talked about it months later I didn't back down when he kept saying "oh you weren't scared, I wasn't scary" I just said "Yes, I was very afraid. You looked so angry and you were standing between me and the door. I was freaked out." No matter how many times he asked I answered the same. He's commented that he knows he was really over the edge and out of control during those months. Plus our daughter told him that I was wondering if it was even safe to STAY with him. So he does sometimes take in information, which is good. And he's medicated for his depression now too, which is excellent.

SO much of what you said makes such perfect sense to me, like it was a place my brain was trying to get to but just couldn't quite find the path. I absolutely feel like H's goal is to shut me down as quickly as possible (obviously he feels threatened no matter how calmly I try to express things) by reacting with his Litany he keeps close at hand of the million ways I have hurt him (and he's very creative when it comes to this Litany.)

I do feel in his case that the manipulation isn't necessarily purposeful, like premeditated, but is the response of a hurt and angry 2 year old. Still not appropriate, still hateful to the recipient. And as much as I am injured by these words, well, let's just say I've heard worse. And forgiveness is another whole subject for me to struggle with, just for my own mental health... .

Now , your wife on the other hand? WOW. You just put my brother's wife in a whole new perspective. I always thought she was a little "different" but now i'm pretty sure you were married to her clone!

THIS sentence of yours directly hits the heart of the matter for me:

       "the most painful and frustrating was me never being able to express myself"

AARRGH! This, plus my delightful childhood has set me up for the fibromyalgia I now deal with.

I sort of understand your "grounded but detached" and please feel free to share away!

DW used to try and go this route too with me and you are right.  That's what they want, to make you go away or in the case of DW tell just go ahead and do what you want to do because I don't want to listen/argue.  I however would not because I knew that is just what she wanted me to do.  Things have calmed down since I have put up my boundries and have been holding her accountable to her behaviors and words.  Still alot of flack but getting better.  The no one likes a door mat addage seems to be working... .

DF99 thank you for the kind words i know how hard and confusing it is being in these situations. makes me feel good that i could connect like that. my thoughts below:


DF99 i tend to see things different from some others regarding rages and manipulation. and this awareness came from my own personal experiments that gave me the answers i needed (i'll post more later regarding this). first principal to understand is the BPD's need/want to punish you, to consciously punish you and seek revenge on you, projecting their hate and rage reaction from early trauma onto you, their new and meaty target. yes, i would say that this revenge and punishment could very well be on "auto-pilot", but i would not go so far as to say it is done unconsciously or by accident on their part. if a baby cries and you give him a cookie, then cries again and you give him another, pretty soon he'll be so trained and crafty at crying because he knows he gets what he wants. in fact, the crying will be so practiced that he won't have to think much at all about it, he can cry on cue for that cookie. but because he's so learned in crying so that he doesn't have to think about it doesn't mean he's not conscious of what he's doing. he *knows* he wants that damn cookie--giveit!  :)

a pwBPD wants to punish you. wants to seek revenge on you for you slighting them (even if they made it up in their mind). they are fully aware of this and they are experts at doing it--because they are such astute students and rehearse aplenty the games of manipulation. it's a way of life for them, a way of being.

i would recommend viewing all heated disagreements with your H as conscious attempts on his part to manipulate you. is he really conscious of it? don't bother questioning it in the moment, if you are incorrect you can recalibrate later (you have this kind of ability/awareness of self that a pwBPD lacks). so for the purpose of experimenting and raising your own awareness try first determining the point where any emotional poison starts flowing from him. then keep your composure, remain calm and assume conscious manipulation on his part. i think you will start to see things in a totally different light. like i said, later on you can reevaluate to see if you were a bit off, in the moment just assume it's so. a pwBPD doesn't want a cookie in these moments, they seek to punish you, and they have trained to know just how.


Grounded/Grounding -- i get this from Karla McLaren's book. it's soo good:


there's a chapter on the exercise to actually ground yourself, and basically it boils down to focusing on your body, imagining a strong cord of energy running from your core straight into the earth. if you breath normally and imagine this energy pushing further and further down, like a root, all the way until you can feel it reach the center of the earth. this is grounding.

i couldn't actually visualize this chord so well during the heat of the argument, but practicing this technique beforehand allowed me to be there, in the now, during arguments. to know what my body was feeling and to know just what to do, because i was calm and accepting. my body was grounded, i was still emotional! yes, but i wasn't a slave to my emotions, i could just monitor them. i don't like the term detached so much in these situations b/c you don't want to be off in lala land imagining your off on some beautiful beach away from the drama. detaching--this coping mechanism can be helpful during trauma but we want to avoid it in this situation--we want to be fully aware, accepting, strong, grounded.

i just thought of this, but try picking your favorite predatory animal, like a snow leopard, panther or wolf. and imagine being this animal who just picked up the fresh scent of it's next meal. aware, unafraid, watchful, grounded, listening, in the moment, about to get it's prize. try to reach this place in the heat of an argument. the prize will be what you learn

a story from a previous post where i was grounded and called out my ex's manipulations for what they were. she knew what she was doing. took me a few times being made a fool to figure it out though:

Bruceli, yet another place where our BPD's coincide... . I think you're right, i'm going to need to work on consistent boundaries around this problem. But please explain what you mean by "holding her accountable to her behaviors and words." i'm not sure I understand that--one thing my H is really really good at is words and promises, and bless me, ever slow to learn, it's taken me 30 odd years and a therapist to figure that out. I always believed him when he explained away why nothing in our house is finished: "this or that happened" "I've been really tired" etc etc etc. Because this or that DID happen, and he HAS been really tired... . but nothing is finished, and it's all about him and not about the rest of the family. So I don't quite understand the "holding accountable" bit but it sounds like something I should.

I've just been avoiding most conversation about any of the zillion hot topics that send him over the edge, but I know I can't do that forever. It's soul killing.

Still learning, still not having fun... .

"New and meaty target"? HEY I thought I was a golden goddess or some such thing! (har har.)

Sorry goldylamont, I did something weird there and the whole thing looks like a quote... .

DreamFlyer99, now you are teaching me! i haven't heard of the histrionic stuff i will definitely look into it thanks for that.

and you are correct that it doesn't really matter whether he's conscious of his actions, what matters more is how they affect you. i feel like looking at situations from this perspective though can perhaps shed some light, open our awareness to what's going on. there's plenty of times i'm sure i had disagreements with my ex where although she was foul, i don't think she was consciously trying to manipulate. but the cutting me off from the conversation--i feel like that was a purposeful/conscious tactic to punish me (at least in my case).

another time i caught her purposeful manipulation was when i figured out that she was purposefully rekindling arguments. the more understanding and respectful i would become the more she would get passive aggressive, say cruel things and drag the argument out. much of the time i would want to express myself, but other times i truly wanted to avoid conflict, i would let her know it's best we don't talk more so that we don't say hurtful things... . let's give each other a break until we can be more respectful and constructive. but she'd find a way to push on, trying to get me to blow up. until one day i asked her why she was carrying around her iphone--it was my calm grounded state that finally cued me into the fact that she was recording our arguments on her phone. and had been recording me unbeknownst to me how many times? so, when i didn't blow up and become the evil abuser she so needed me to be, she kept pushing and pushing and pushing, so that she could record me being out of control, listen to it later and build up more hate for me i guess. to my knowledge i don't think she got anything worthy. when i confronted her she decided to play me stuff she'd recorded of me from days ago saying how horrible i was. i can honestly say that i was **proud** of what i heard! i mean, i was angry in the recordings, maybe let out a curse word here or there but no name calling or anything too vile. the whole situation was ridiculous. but i guess what i'm saying is that i had to be really really aware of my body and in tune with my gut instinct... . i don't know how the hell i suddenly knew she was recording me, an inner voice told me during that one argument b/c it just didn't feel right. why was she still pushing my buttons--because of that damn phone!  lol it doesn't get much more conscious than that.  :)

it doesn't sound like your H is recording you or anything, but i did want to share some valuable insights that i learned because i was able to stay grounded and trust what my gut was telling me in the heat of the moment   |iiii

and now i'm off to learn about histrionics!

and, you are the great golden goddess!

I am just a newbie here at this forum and have only lived a year in a relationship with a man with BPD, (undiagnosed, but positively so). I have however lived in a much longer relationship with a man with narcissistic personality disorder. And the behavior you are describing with instigating conflict with the sole purpose to cause pain fits that bill to a par!

I think sometimes, at least in my country the tendency is to diagnose women with BPD and men with NPD sometimes clouds the clearer view... . In essence I think traits of both very often exists side by side within the realm of on persons personality disorder... . And my guess would be that strong traits of either narcissism or perhaps even histrionism might be present in your ex girlfriend.

I bring this up because I can notice some significant differences both in my ex NPD compared to my present BPD man when it comes just to this... . Where the malice intent was all the more present in my NPD and more of a guilt-ridden flight mode is present in my present BPDbf. He can sound just as mean in the moment, but remorse and guilt always follows and the fear of loosing me shines through. My ex NPD truly wanted to hurt me, tear me down, whereas my BPD wants the conflict to just stop, because he feels overwhelmed... .

I too usually work through a mindfulness mode... . staying calm, aware and grounded and weighing my words carefully... . I learned it during the relationship with my N, so it comes somewhat natural now with my BPD. And I think that is what makes it possible for me now to see the difference... .

I really like your posts on grounding and about remaining calm and collected! And also zoo recognize the agonizing feeling of never having the right to stress out my view on things and always the feeling of being in the loosing end of the rope... . Especially with my Nbf... . It is much easier to get through to my BPDbf, at least when he is in a calm mode... .

Anyway you write really thoughtful and interesting posts! They make me think a lot! So Thank You!

scout99

When it comes to boundary time, I cut out the "we need to/should do" co operative suggestions. Boundaries are about me, and what I am going to do about it. If I leave it is because that is what I want to do. I dont care if that is what my partner wanted me to do or not, their wishes are irrelevant and it is not a contest, nor an attempt to teach them a lesson. It is simply to ensure that I am not subject to the consequences of whatever the behavior is. She can sit there and smugly think good riddance, I wont care and she will know it.

I have found that taking the "contest" out of it has taken the point out of it for her, as the contest is what they thrive on. As a result my boundaries are rarely high conflict anymore and I just subtly impose them where necessary and there are few extinction burst tantrums anymore, at least not much more than regular folks.

Yep.

The way I look at it is, 'This (whatever it is that's not my value, makes me feel uncomfortable; I'm going to back way off' (my boundary).

The pwBPD in my life, responds quite well to this.  It's something he understands the need of, s p a c e.  And comes back around quite quickly.

Instead validating her feelings by telling her what she wants to hear... . I have been validating but "slipping in" that the feelings that she is having are due to her PD.  Trick here is not directly saying so. 

As I have mentioned in previous post.  DW is aware of her PD but has not "fully" come to terms with it.  Hence forth why I believe she is so forth comming with her statements like I know what I do to you and sorry, sucks to be you doesn't it. 

Example... . when DW says "I don't love you"... . This is her projection that is you can't possibly love me due to the fact that I am so screwed up and unlovable... . My reply now is... . I understand how you feel... . why take a chance on loving me when people in your past who should have loved you unconditionally ( e.g. mom, dad, ex's) hurt you so badly before. 

First time I threw that one out there I fully expected WW3, but to my surprise she just looked at me for awhile and said nothing... . Of course after thinking it through for awhile she said that I was totally wrong and it was me.  Once again the I can not be wrong reply, but then a cuple of hours later she will say in her PD abck handed way... . " you think you are so smart don't you!"  After while I had come to learn that that is her way of saying thank you for understanding... . De-Coded PD speak... .

wow bruceli, that is GAME! |iiii who are you? Billy D Williams? Obi Wan Kenobe? That's a Jedi move there, wish i had that one in my tool belt before  :) It's honest, diffusing, compassionate, validating and not fake in any way

i feel like this in this thread i've been trying to share my experiences not with boundaries, or ending an argument. which takes practice and grounding also. what i was trying to address is the even trickier art of trying to stay in the conversation, because you have something to say. it's one thing to peacefully shut down an argument and take your own space. but it really took some mental kung fu for me to deal with things when my ex would shut things down and use her "condition" to end the conversation, whilst claiming i was the one out of control and wanting to argue, when i just wanted respect and to talk. so this is why i mention the grounding techniques and my experiences to address the issue of the nonBPD not needing to put up boundaries to stop anything, but to use boundaries to stay calm and grounded so that they could keep their partner there and express what they so much need to.

and Scout99--thanks so much for sharing! Yes your comments on NPD also ring a bell for me. Do you know that my ex accusing me of being a Narcissist is what brought me to seek and find out about personality disorders and find out about BPD? Crazy eh, when we broke up she tells me i'm a Narcissist, full gaslight mode. i immediately checked in with several friends and asked them if i were selfish, i'm super confident and ambitious at times and i thought (stupidly) "maybe she's onto something"? several friends saved me and told me they thought i was one of the more caring, stable and sharing people they knew (i didn't mention why i was asking them, but this is what they told me). it wasn't until a full year later, until i fully grasped the concept that the emotional poison my ex would sling on me was actually what she was guilty of that this old argument popped up where she said i was a crazy NPD. so i literally went to google and typed in "is my ex girlfriend a narcissist?", and soon found out about BPD which i had never heard of before.

it's funny because in my case, i feel like a pwBPD is like a lazy pwNPD  lol i'd call my exBPD a part-time NPD.  lol i still think mostly just BPD though, even when i searched on google NPD didn't seem to fit i just was throwing a hail mary out there. but when that hater phase hit, it was *all* about her, and *all* about revenge/punishment, so with her i feel like she was a BPD tamale with a little NPD hot pepper hidden inside--you could eat the whole thing and be ok, but that one bite was HOT!  :)

and, still got to do my homework on histrionics. thanks for sharing

I do this too, but my partner now has fully accepted she has BPD and will now even ask me if this thought or action is typically BPD. I do tend to link various actions to components eg black and white thinking. But you have to be diplomatic and it is also a matter of what level of awareness they have of having a problem or even BPD. Definately only to be brought up in more grounded moments not in a crisis time.

Care has to be taken not to give too much information or BPD can be used as an excuse to do absolve responsibility... . ie "not my fault, I have BPD"

For those of you who have loved ones who accept their diagnosis of BPD, I congratulate you.  However, many pwBPD refuse to seek treatment and/or even acknowledge the disorder when diagnosed.  They firmly believe everyone else is

mentally ill and they are innocent victims of their craziness. 

This complicates the entire process of communication  tremendously, and it provides pwBPD the protection of believing they are "normal".

This is very, very difficult.

Who's expressing what and about whom?

It sounds like this might be stepping into therapist territory a little.


From my understanding, boundaries are for us, they're absolutely ours.  No matter how calm and grounded I am, it doesn't mean a hill of beans if my pwBPD is dysregulating and could even come off as condescending and invalidating if I try and keep him there to get my point across all calmly, adding more fuel to the fire already burning within him.  :)ysregulation is part of PUSH mode.  He pushes, I go away.  :)oesn't even have to be physically removing myself; it can be a mental detachment if we're out somewhere-- because I'm not going to walk down that pathway of his.  I'll stick with my own.  I've found that doing this is a form of validation for him; that I hear what he is saying = 'I'm freaking confused and need space to figure this out!'

How can I argue with that?  I'm pretty much feeling the same way.

When someone is dysregulating, emotionally stomping all over the place, sometimes it's best to move out of the way until the situation is more stable, for everyone involved.  It takes practice and patience to remove ourselves from their 'moment' to get in touch with ourselves, while creating healthy space for them to self soothe and come down from whatever horse they're riding.

There's not a thing I have to say that can't wait until a better time.  And he's much more receptive to hearing what I have to say when he's had the chance to feel and process his own emotions and sometimes the consequences of his behavior.

A lot of the time I haven't had to say a word, because he's learned from butting up against my boundary that I can and will take care of myself, over hanging around for   :'( .  I'm better able to nip things in the bud now before they become big old deal breakers :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em

Know when to walk away and know when to run

You never count your money, when you're sittin' at the table

There'll be time enough for countin', when the dealing's done

I  Kenny Rogers lol

 

My partner went through a long period of blocking the diagnosis, even though she has accepted having psychiatric problems all her life. One day, well after I knew about it and was active here, she just announced this is what she had. Then immediately went on a cycle of demanding appropriate therapy and ODing when she could not get it immediately, then when T was lined up she just didn't go. The transition from denial to acceptance was far from smooth.

Okay, wow! there are a lot more things to think about--i'm going to try to pull my thoughts and questions together for all these responses. There are too many things for me to quote correctly, so I think i'll just count on everyone having read the other posts, okay?

goldylamont:

I think the main things i'm pulling from what you say are that by knowing and trusting yourself and your instincts (which I think matches up with being "grounded" you were able to "hear" what was going on with the ex more clearly and see where she was going with her actions. The extra valuable part of that for me reminds me of my T telling me that "you have good instincts, you just don't trust them." i'm learning to trust them finally after years of struggling with the "truth" both my mother and H have put on me in their projecting ways. My mother likely had uNPD traits and definitely uBPD traits, and I think the vulnerability I saw behind the scenes in her might have been because over the years she may have had some tiny realizations that her blaming things on everyone else didn't quite ring true, but she was one who "didn't need counseling." (Okay, but all your children sure did! LOL)

So my biggest takeaways from you are: be open to and aware of what is going on in the interchange and look for patterns, and then trust my instincts on them, and I might just learn something! And remain conscious of my responses. (Why's it gotta be so hard?)

I also, when I think back to last year, remember some very aggressive verbal attacks that seemed much more just that, an aggression, rather than a defensive stance. this I could see might be manipulation. He's much more in a place now to REACT in a push away action than then. Interesting.


Scout, my Scandinavian relative from the great 99 tribe,

Reading your post made me wonder how it is you have picked 2 different people to be in relationships with who have PDs? i'm curious since it's no picnic!

Waverider:

Truth, boundaries are about us! And maybe I will never be able to discuss some things with my H and just be frustrated forever, I hope not. I just need to figure out how to protect myself by bringing things up without using invalidating words, and decide where the line is for my boundary to keep from being pushed away verbally so vigorously when he hates what i'm saying. I guess that's the thing, I need to still try to talk, but know what precise boundary at what precise time I will whip out of my toolkit and lay down to save myself. HAAARRD

"Taking the contest out of it" is something I have started learning... . but boy do I need to stay on my toes! IT'S EXHAUSTING BEING SO STINKING CAREFUL ALL THE TIME!

And this: I cut out the "we need to/should do" co operative suggestions.

So would it be better for me to say "It's important to me to learn how to talk without making you feel attacked?" or is that STILL too off?

123Phoebe:

The way I look at it is, 'This (whatever it is that's not my value, makes me feel uncomfortable; I'm going to back way off' (my boundary). My T has talked a bit about values, like where my values are different from H's values. I think I need to ask her more as it relates to boundaries, since it seems like this could be key. it's certainly something I don't really understand yet. But backing away every time I say the first sentence and he reacts by getting defensive means I never get past the first sentence. SIGH. His wanting space is all on his terms--I should be in the room when he's relaxing (whether that's on the computer or watching tv) BUT I should NOT be in his space if I want to talk about our issues. It's a quandary.

Bruceli my "same boat" friend:

Ah! So your w knows she has a PD? That's something, and I'd imagine it puts a different spin on it. My H is undiagnosed and doesn't seem to be interested in going to therapy to figure out why he can't talk about anything deep between he and the woman he's been married to for nearly 37 years... . this is difficult. And validating, isn't it supposed to be things that aren't just telling them what they want to hear, but more about letting them know that we do hear them? i'm trying to do that, but I definitely need to read up on it! That was a lovely compassionate thing you said in response to her. :)

MammaMia!

This is where I live, in the land of the uBPD who will NOT admit he has any issues. Very frustrating for me since I've been in therapy for 12 years now, and I still feel like i'm disentangling the mess of me. And difficult? It's a regular joyride.

I THINK I may have commented on everything I meant to now! LOL


LEARNING: it's the life long school!

Thanks all for your responses.

OOPS! I tried to put goldylamont in yellow (as close as I could find to gold lol) but you can't see it! Use the force... . it's there... .

Why do you need to tell your partner this? If you are asking them they are not going to teach you. An illogical person cannot teach you a logical method

If you are not asking, but merely defending yourself in a conflict then you are heading toward JADE.


You are telling them how they feel. Ask, dont tell, better to say ":)o you feel attacked when I say XYZ, that is not my intention". This is a concise example SET, you are paying attention(S) asking (E),clarifying your position (T)

Dear DreamFlyer99!

Thanks for inviting me into your great 99 tribe!   I feel honored to recieve that!

And about your spot on reflection... . If you only knew how many times I have wrecked my brain with that particular question... . Because I really don't try to seek it out... . To the contrary... . So far I have only been able to figure out two things... . 1: I do have a great tolerance for peoples "irregularities", that is I am a rather accepting kind of person when it comes to peoples peculiarities and differences. And I wont discard or judge someone for seeming weird or withdrawn or extreme or whatever. Quite frankly I think most people are somewhat weird, so who am I to judge?

2: I am somewhat kind and generous as a person and however smart, also a bit gullible when it comes to believing there is something good in everybody... . And that we all deserve a break... . And for some reason I think maybe those kinds of traits in me, makes me interesting to men with PD's... .

I don't know... . ? Thankfully I am currently in therapy so maybe I will find out!   

You see I have also had a relationship for many years with a man who (years after we split up), went through a psychotic episode where he started imagining things and became extremely paranoid... . He was in a new relationship, but wasn't comfortable talking to her. But we have always remained good friends after our break-up so he chose to reach out to me being terrified of what was happening but refusing to see a doctor... . (paranoid)... . I became worried and took him in to live with me for a week since his home created the fears and so on... . And being a journalist at the time secretly called everyone I knew within the psychiatric field... . Who all warned me saying that he was going to become violent and told me to get him to a psychiatric clinic at once... . Which I knew, knowing him, wasn't going to be possible, at least not then... . So I decided to do exactly what everybody told me not to: keep him in my home, (so I at least could perhaps call for an ambulance if things were going to get out of hand... . And then again break the rules and apply logic to the situation... . And to my surprise that worked! He came out of his episode and is five years later still doing just fine!

But to get back to your reflection... . I have a feeling that most men and women who find themselves involved with partners who turn out to have a PD all pretty much have in common that they have descent, (not to say big) heart   and great tolerance. And those traits ought to be very appealing to people who's insides mostly are in turmoil and who in different ways have lost their faith in both themselves and in love somewhere long ago along their winding path through life... . ? I think it really is that simple, and that complicating it with diagnosing co-dependency as a reason is to as we say where I live, to cross pass the creek and go all the way to the ocean just to get some water... .

I'm not saying it can't be so in some cases... . But I don't see any of that in my situation... . It has however taken some time, especially the last time, wit my ex N, before I started to realize something wasn't right with him... .

This time it went a little faster... . But I must also stress out that there is a huge difference between these two men! On so many levels! So I can clearly see now why there is room for these two different kinds of PD's, who in some aspects share traits, but differ so much in others... .

BUT! I am still indecisive about how far I am willing to take this "relationship". I am as a person willing to do a lot for the people I love and have in my life. But I do draw the line very firmly in the ground and have a defined limit that I won't cross... . And that is that it won't be possible to have me in their lives and live as if they are completely unaware of their problems... . He will have to start out seeking help if I am to be willing to enter into a more long-term solid relationship with this man. Thats my boundary! That's the same boundary I set up for my ex N, when I finally had been able to figure out what the h*ll was wrong with him... . I then told him I thought we needed help. And he chose to discard me... . And I let him... .  It was extremely painful, make no mistake about it. But I am so glad today that I held my fort and didn't budge there... .

Thanks again DreamFly99 my 99 tribe sista' :) for raising this question too, it's important to vent and talk about our motives or what is driving us too!

Scout99

Sorry for being a newbie and maybe asking a Q that has been posted hundreds of times... . I have been able to figure out what SET means and works, but what does JADE stand for and how does that work?

I would really appreciate some help with that!

Scout99

Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain... . it puts you in the defensive because you are trying to use truth, logic and fairness. They are are using whatever makes you retreat from your position, they have no rules. They will keep pushing until you are unsure of yourself and compromise on your boundary.

In effect it doesn't work and needs to be avoided at all costs

This is such a powerful thread!

What a great read for all dealing with a pwBPD.

Thank you all for sharing! We need to get our game on with these sufferers... .

Peace to all Jedi masters... . im still a youngling!

AHAH! NOW it's starting to make sense! Thank you, Waverider! I am struggling to make sense of what seem like the twists and turns of conversation with a uBPD. Clearly I need to read up on JADE and SET. Sometimes I have difficulty trying to find the things on the site I want to read up on, but i'll hunt them down... . SO--no telling him he feels defensive when I bring stuff up (EVEN THO IT IS OBVIOUS.) i'm trying to understand the "tell" and "ask" situations, so I think I need to yack less on here and read more.


Phew--I was gonna have to go look that up to understand. Now I know my middle name must be JADE, cuz that's how I spent the past 30 odd years with my uBPDh, trying to defend myself by arguing and explaining that he had me all wrong, I could never understand--we have spent HOW many years together and you clearly don't have a clue about who I am? (signed, DreamFlyer Jade 99. lol) Silly me, not realizing for decades that logic and rational thought did not have a place there!

And how on earth did you figure out what SET meant? impressive. You definitely have the intelligence of the 99 tribe. LOL


Wow Scout99, your paragraph of explanation describes me to a T! Apparently I am too kind and forgiving and accepting and seem to be drawn to people with issues. And I also am one of those who feels like second chances (all the way up to 30 odd years of chances, apparently) are a given. So yes, I have accepted that sometimes that means you get stepped on. There must be a similar mentality to many of us nons. It's like with the Fibromyalgia I have, it seems to be a "gift" given to many people who are the caretaker type, who have given their all to taking care of others, and eventually their body says "BOOM! Here's a "gift" of Fibromyalgia to make you start taking care of YOU!"

i'm interested in how a person puts it to someone who can be so explosive that "I can't handle this anymore if you don't get some psychiatric help!"


It is good to share--I do feel so much less crazy knowing there is a commonality to these relationships and that i'm not alone. I do wish though that it mattered to H that his way of living/reacting is causing ME suffering too! But I guess that's why we need to learn about the JADE and the SET and the IGSI? (I just made that up. it stands for "I'm going slowly insane."  :)

I too need to learn from the Jedi Masters, tho I feel much too old at 59 to be a youngling!

Step by step and little by little I am learning... . tho I still can't seem to learn how to quote right!

"Bruceli my "same boat" friend:

Ah! So your w knows she has a PD? That's something, and I'd imagine it puts a different spin on it. My H is undiagnosed and doesn't seem to be interested in going to therapy to figure out why he can't talk about anything deep between he and the woman he's been married to for nearly 37 years... . this is difficult. And validating, isn't it supposed to be things that aren't just telling them what they want to hear, but more about letting them know that we do hear them? i'm trying to do that, but I definitely need to read up on it! That was a lovely compassionate thing you said in response to her. "

Let another fly last night... . DW says... . " you are the most un-affectionate man I have ever been with" to which my simple reply was... . "Why do you feel that way?"  Total shut down on her part and no reply, no argument and no ragging.  Just a quizzical look in her eye.  She that I would try to defend that one but I didn't... . However due to not getting the response that she expected, she proceeded, after much thought, to what I call HYPER-CONTROL the rest of the evening till ambien kicked in... .  But on the bright side no arguing and noragging... .

"It is good to share--I do feel so much less crazy knowing there is a commonality to these relationships and that i'm not alone. I do wish though that it mattered to H that his way of living/reacting is causing ME suffering too! "

I believe it does matter to them and once again use DW as a template for this... . She now readily admits to doing what she does as a matter of control, inflict pain and cause unbalance.  All projection and done to make THEMSELVES feel better.  Example... . I am in so much pain and I feel that you are not so I will take all that I know about you and use it against you so you can be in as much pain as I am... .   Nothing like hearing your SO tell you that one huh?

HEY! I didn't do too badly on that quote thing! maybe there's hope for me learning some of the useful stuff about dealing with my personal BPD!


And SHE'S the unaffectionate one, right? So was this your basic case of projection? Or was she just seeing if you'd take the bait? Interesting. My H doesn't bring up anything as a test, he'd rather watch tv or be on his computer or talk about work or half-listen to me talk about my day and perhaps grunt like he's heard me... . He and I have talked about my great need for affection (only one of the unaddressed needs in my life) but i'm the one who has to get close to him/lean up against him/ASK for affection! and HUH. My H is an ambien user too. But he takes lots of stuff and drinks enough too that i'm never sure when it's a good time to talk/try to be affectionate, etc so I mostly don't. It's not a good way to live. YOU however seem to be making headway! Very cool. You're really learning how to avoid taking the bait and more proactively choose your response.

i'm just so frickin' tired of the dance. It's killing me.


NO WAY! She SAID that? Whoa! Very self aware of her, yet still so stinking twisted. I have told H that when he acts out it sets me back a good 2 weeks on my pursuit of physical health with my Fibromyalgia. So at least he knows it DOES hurt me. And i'm not kidding, I always go into a flare because of the underlying pain response to the emotional pain of it, and 2 weeks seems to be the minimum it takes to come out of the flare and be capable of the same intensity of workout as I was prior to the acting out.

(I even sound tired to ME today!)

"And SHE'S the unaffectionate one, right? So was this your basic case of projection? Or was she just seeing if you'd take the bait? Interesting. My H doesn't bring up anything as a test, he'd rather watch tv or be on his computer or talk about work or half-listen to me talk about my day and perhaps grunt like he's heard me... . He and I have talked about my great need for affection (only one of the unaddressed needs in my life) but i'm the one who has to get close to him/lean up against him/ASK for affection!   and HUH. My H is an ambien user too. But he takes lots of stuff and drinks enough too that i'm never sure when it's a good time to talk/try to be affectionate, etc so I mostly don't. It's not a good way to live. YOU however seem to be making headway! Very cool. You're really learning how to avoid taking the bait and more proactively choose your response.

i'm just so frickin' tired of the dance. It's killing me.


And you are the big winner... . 3 for three... . Again, our SO's must be twins if not atleast somehow related.

I don't anymore because this is part of her game.  Say that I don't but when I do and did... . she would pull away, say not now, swat my hand away, etc.  Another of hers is that she wants me to persue her/chase her, then says that I hang around her too much and that she needs space.  How do you chase/persue someone who doesn't want you around? LOL... . Crazy making for sure huh?

Same here, beer wine, hards, ambien, xanax, valium.  I have NEVER known her to pass up a drink of any kind... . Daily the equivalent of 5-8 beers... . last night being the 4th... . 5 beers in about 3 hours... . oh and 1/2 an ambien and a full valium because she ran out of ambien :)

*mod*

Hey guys can we try to use the standard quote buttons and formats, it gets a little hard for the newer members in particular to keep track of who's quoting what with all the different use of colors and fonts for quotes.

Waverider

Sorry Waverider! I kept trying to use the quote format on that one further up but I couldn't get it right so after an hour I gave up and just wrote the darn thing with their names in color. I wanted to answer but just couldn't figure out the quotes that day for whatever reason... . I think maybe I should just answer in a separate reply for each person if i'm having too much trouble?

If you want to use split quotes, use the quote tab instead of reply. Delete the bits you dont want then, then copy and paste the bracketed quote html codes above and below the bits you want. That will put them in assigned individual quote boxes.

Quick option to qoute part of a text is to highlight text you want and click the speech bubble at top of reply box, this will put them in dialogue boxes but they will not be attributed

If you are in the reply box page you can also insert quotes by scrolling down to the prior posts under and select to insert those quotes into your reply. Then edit as per first option

"Speech bubble"?

post reply box, tool bar above, yellow square second from right, next to hash symbol. This will place quote brackets in reply box, paste your quote between them this will give


This will be unattributed quote, though you can replace first quote bracket with author qoute html>>

DF99 -- YES! precisely, exactly, uh huh, yes :) you put into words what i was trying to convey better i think than i have.   :)

i speak openly of manipulation, punishment and revenge, and becoming aware of these behaviors from a pwBPD... . because really you already know it's going on... . but sometimes our conscious mind doesn't want to see these things. or admit that we are experiencing them.

you mention that you have been married over 3 decades to your H--and this speaks volumes to the amount of love that must exist between you and your H to make the r/s work. so i always want to be careful when mentioning manipulation/punishment/revenge for the simple reason that nonBPD's already have to go through so much devaluation in the r/s that looking at things from this perspective can be painful b/c in a way, are we opening the door to devaluing the r/s even more?

So, I *don't* mean to imply that anyone's SO is only an all-bad-evil-person all the time. however, i've read plenty of posts from people suffering from BPD to know that many are well aware that they want to punish, that they purposefully start fights (sometimes for no reason, sometimes to control you) and openly admit to being manipulative and cruel, on purpose. not all will admit or know this, but many do. they may have trouble controlling these urges, or even feel remorse sometimes, but they are often aware of their behaviors. And in these situations, if you are being punished and/or manipulated--how do you know? Well, how do you feel? If you are grounded and can keep some composure, then trust these feelings and you will have access to truths that your body has been yelling to your mind to try to make it understand for a long time. In my case, my instincts, my body was telling me for a long time "hey, you *know* you're not violent or scary towards her, right?... . this person isn't afraid of you--this person is punishing you" but it took a while for me to trust this feeling, to gain the composure to know exactly what to do to confirm that i was right.

dysregulation may show a lack of control but not necessarily a lack of awareness

There is acute awareness of the moment, but the fight or flight rush they are on overrides appropriate control or perspective. The motive of that moment is precisely that. That moment only. It is not the same motive as previous moments or any following moments, it is survival mode in the face of perceived threat.

In fact the awareness is heightened, the ability to show extreme mental dexterity when dysregulated is one reason you do not try going head to head with a pwBPD by trying to wing it.  This is the time you pull out your preconsidered boundaries.

Goldylamont said:


Oh poo. I think my T would like to say that to me, but she knows how I am unwilling to assign mean traits to anybody. (My much more in-touch daughter calls 'em like she sees 'em, but me, I gotta believe the best of everyone, even in the face of someone obviously trying to hurt me!)


Holy crapness, yes, this is true. But I am finding that as I understand more and more who each of us is in the relationship, the more clear the boundaries become, and the boundaries are meant to clarify the relationship and so are a thing of "good," right?


Well, MY body has certainly been yelling at me for a long time! And I didn't listen, so BOOM, Fibromyalgia! Under it all I did think I knew who I was and what my intents were, I just didn't trust myself enough to stand firm in those things. But I KNEW in my heart that I wasn't mean, I always tried to be respectful, but somehow my head didn't believe that, it believed the lies i'd been told about the person I was. But I just thought "what the heck this man has gone around the bend" but it often felt like he was just reacting to a perceived wrong in an extremely angry way, which was bad enough since I always thought "how can someone who is supposed to love me treat me like this?" but never got to the punishing idea. My emotional alarms just went off in "MEAN!" "INTENTIONALLY HURTFUL!" kinds of ways, which probably equals the manipulation/punishing thoughts. Cuz I felt like he did intend harm, it wasn't "accidental" that he called me by my mother's name when he knew she was the person who had hurt me the most.


WAVERIDER said:




"THAT MOMENT ONLY" and "SURVIVAL MODE IN THE FACE OF PERCEIVED THREAT"

Those REALLY help clarify for me-- this must be why it feels like the pwBPD hasn't collected any new knowledge about me between their episodes of off-the-rails rawness. They are still in that child mode of just scrambling to fight off the hurt, but now they have big-people words and actions to fight with. This clarifies why logic/explaining/etc. doesn't work and ONLY those "preconsidered boundaries" will work: i'm basically dealing with a 3 year old at the moment in the adult's survival mode.

Lots of interesting yet quite basic concepts to mull over. And lookie! I found the speech bubble! thanks Waverider :)

One more small realization occurs:

Since each of us is the only person to pull out our "inner grown-up" as needed, my job in the situation is to reinforce the boundaries I've decided ahead of time will take care of me, since I have no ability to get the other person to pull out that momentarily missing grown-up.

Huh. Makes so much sense.

Just to compound the issue, you have authority over a child having a tantrum, but not over BPD adult, especially if they have had a lifetimes experience of throwing tantrums... . You are dealing with professional tantrum throwers. Try giving them "time out" and see what happens... . That's why you have to  resort to giving YOU "time out"

DreamFlyer99 i wanted to quote your initial post to get back to the initial issue you were asking about. There's good advice here about leaving the situation if your H gets disregulated or rages, however initially you mention that before this happens you get The Shut Down ( lol I love that term by the way  :)) which is the situation i've been trying to address. in fact, i'm realizing now that both of the situations i mentioned, i feel like i got the most insight out of it because i figured out the whole play and called her on it before she was able to rage to manipulate her way out of the conversation.

Oh Waverider, TRUE DAT.

We are in a place of relative calm at the moment, but I still find him "high maintenance" at times since he's used to having other people do things for him at home and sometimes can use up all the air in the room. I just had surgery and am supposed to be keeping it on the down-low so he doesn't ask ME for stuff, he asks our son! lol But needing to rest is a great reason to just take myself away and have a nap or read in another room. He has the big need to just have me nearby (I assume it's the "I can't stand to be alone or lonely" thing) and i'm quite enjoying giving myself the occasional needed "time out" just to be alone! And yup, I need to keep drumming into my head, "I only have control over my own actions" till I get that firmly in place and realize I have no authority over his moods and tantrums. (I love that "professional tantrum thrower" thought! So true.)


AHAH! I see what you're saying! And as you can see, I "see" in Capitalized Phrases, such as The Shut Down. All of life just feels more organized to me that way.

DreamFlyer i've been meaning to come back and post again--thanks for your response to my last post, I'm glad it caused an "AHAH" moment 

So, my last post here was actually edited by the moderators as I inadvertently posted a quote that I had gotten elsewhere on the internet. So not all of the text is there.

Soo, staying within board guidelines I won't quote but will explain the last of what I was trying to convey--this has to do with looking at abuse from a pwBPD as sometimes Overt, and other times Covert. And I feel there is a lot of great advice and info here about how to deal with Overt/obvious emotional abuse (meaning your SO is completely disregulated or raging at you). In this case, you just leave the situation.

However, I feel your initial question though was regarding Covert abuse--what you call The Shut Down. So, this is specifically what I was trying to address--Covert abuse. Not raging, not out of control behavior where the best thing is to just let it drop, leave and protect yourself. But, before the person escalates to this point, sometimes your instincts are telling you that something is wrong... . you feel manipulated or as if the person is punishing you. And I would feel this "covert" punishment in a variety of ways. Sometimes I would feel that arguments were being instigated with me even when I was in the mode of trying to calm things down, walk away and make peace. Other times I felt just as you did, that I was being "shut down" so to speak as punishment--basically being disregarded or ignored as punishment, but I didn't understand why. I think you already get what I was saying but just wanted to clarify as i hadn't gotten a chance to come back and update this since it was edited.

thanks DreamFlyer, best of wishes to you!

Interestingly, Goldylamont,

today was another case of the "covert ops" from my H. I said something he didn't like and i'll even admit I probably could have said it more kindly, but his reaction was to just walk out of the room. when I walked into where he was a couple of hours later, he got up and left THAT room. I actually asked, "soo, are you punishing me?" His answer, "no, I just feel depressed so I'll go upstairs where you don't have to have me around." (my comment had been that i was frustrated about him not coming home to do something we were going to do together.) But that was the first time I connected the idea of his actions which speak so loudly possibly having a punitive reasoning behind them. He seems to typify the emotional immaturity part of his uBPD, and that always has made me feel guilty. So now, if I put 1 + 1 together, if I am being treated like I Have Been Bad by telling him my feeling about the situation, there is some effort to push me to react in a way that will make him feel better about himself (he can't have been in the wrong by not doing what he had agreed to!) then it must = 2, some manipulative behavior whether subconscious or not.

My clue that he himself felt guilty about not doing what he said he'd do is that the guy I have trouble getting affection from came and put his arms around me I think to try to soothe me out of being upset (this was before I made The Comment and he left the room.)

You are throwing out the words and trusting what your body is telling you. You are awesome for that!  :)

DreamFlyer I was reviewing some highlights from one of my favorite books and immediately thought of our discussion. I hope this doesn't sound silly but I feel happy (proud?) of how you are trusting your body/emotional instincts in these situations, reconnecting the mind with body.

Below is an excerpt from a beautiful book that I hope you like. The book is written by a well known horse trainer who started one of the first equine therapy centers using horses to help women (and men) suffering from trauma and abuse. The trainer herself was previously in an abusive relationship and through her work with horses rediscovered her intuition, will and connection to her subconscious. I hope you enjoy!

**in this excerpt, Joy is a patient to the author. Jason was Joy's former (abusive) lover. Noche is the name of the horse used in the therapy session.

Glad i'm not a horse! i'd be down... .


My T would say something similar. She made the comment sometime back, "your instincts are good but you don't trust them." As I try to trust them I feel more wholly myself, yunno? It's like a rebirth of chunks of me in a way. So, no, that doesn't sound silly!

Thanks for thinking of me. :) The book looks interesting for sure.