BPDFamily.com

This is my need to vent (and a very long vent at that!), since I can do so safely here, and I'm not sure what advice to ask for.

My uBPDw, our D2, and I took a long-weekend vacation this past week and weekend.  We generally had a good time.  D2 loved it.

Once or twice a day my wife would throw in a remark that felt like she either couldn't stand me or despised me.  They were not direct, so I chose to ignore them.  My wife had D2 sit next to her for most meals, but otherwise I spent more of the time walking with, caring for, or keeping our D2 entertained.  When we would get back to the hotel, my wife would almost immediately start browsing online or read a book, again leaving me to D2.  (I love my time with D2.  It's just that this behavior is consistent even at home.)  Most families would not put up with a lot of these things, but aside from that, things were pretty good.

On our last day, my wife went through several small dysregulations.  She was visibly angry at me from right after we got off the plane, although I still do not know what triggered that.

Then we got home.  She put her feet up to watch TV.  I got D2 ready for bed.  My wife joined part way through the process.  At one point, I left the room to go get something.  When I came back, my wife was leaving the room and said "She's all yours, she told me to leave."  I asked "Literally?"  She said "Yes" and kept walking.  I went into D2's room.  Less than a minute later, my wife yells out that it would have been nice if I had said something, and that she would always say something if D2 were rude to me.  Then she slammed the door.

I did say something to D2.  But I did it in my way, quietly, and my wife did not to hear any of it.  I did happen to bring it up after my wife stormed off, but that was my choice of timing, and I comfortably stick by it.  And from having witnessed many of these interactions in the past, I can't really say whether D2 asked her to leave, or my wife offered it up to D2 (baiting, actually) and D2 simply said yes.

After I had D2 in bed, I went to check on my wife.  Non judgmentally, I acknowledged that it felt really crappy, asked what happened, and offered to talk.  She did not want to talk.  I told her I love her, I'm here whenever we can talk, and left her alone as she requested.  I did not try to discuss it (in the past even stating that I did say something to D2 would likely set my wife off, as it probably invalidates her perception of reality).  Maybe I should have mentioned it.  But in the past saying something about it was as good as JADEing.

Last night and this morning she said she does not want to take D2 to preschool.  When she confirmed it again in the morning, I got D2 ready and took her.  On our way out, I took D2 to say bye to mommy, and my wife was stone cold towards D2, barely looking at her, and not even offering a hug.

I checked in on my wife periodically today.  She did not want to talk, so I told her again that I love her and left her alone as requested.

On the last time, she said we should put D2 in preschool all 5 days a week.  I said ok and asked if she would check with the school on space availability.  Soon after, she let out her anger, saying she blames me for all of our daughter's lack of discipline (she's actually pretty good for a 2 year old), that I let her get away with anything (I am not quite as strict as my wife and try to resort to anger as rarely as possible, but I am quite firm with boundaries on what is acceptable), that she's "had it" with us, that she does not want to take care of D2 anymore, and then went back to more blaming.

I started trying to validate.  But when it shifted so clearly to blame and accusations, I tried to state that I see she feels that I don't care about her, that I do want to talk about her feelings and wants, that I can't deal with this right now, and that I want to pick it up again when things are calm.  I could barely fit a word in edgewise.  In fact, I had to restart and gradually get through it because she kept interrupting me with accusations.  In the end, I did get it all out, told her I love her, and left.

I don't know what of all this she will follow through on.  She normally doesn't.  I don't know how long this phase will last.  Recently, after I've been using the tools I learned here, episodes tend not to last more than hours to maybe a day or so.  But when she's gone this far, in the past it has lasted up to weeks or months.

But this time:

• I feel much more confident in that I am doing what is best for my D2.
  
  



• 
  
  I feel I handled myself better with my wife.  Perhaps I should have stopped the snide remarks on vacation, gotten her more involved in my talk with D2 after she apparently asked my wife to leave, handled interactions with my wife better last night and today, and walked away from the accusations sooner.  But overall, I feel I did reasonably well in those particular situations.
  
  



• 
  
  I feel confident in that if I am to blame for any of my daughter's behaviors, it is for a very small portion of it.  I feel my wife largely brings it on herself because of the way she interacts with D2.  And it really doesn't help that a 2 year-old can be very invalidating, and this really sets off my wife.
  
  



• 
  
  I feel a lot more comfortable in that most of this is my wife's "stuff", not mine, and I can't make her feel any different and I can't "fix" it for her.
  
  



• 
  
  For the first time I feel that regardless of what my wife chooses to do, I can't make her do anything (they are her choices to make), and I will figure out how to be ok.
  
  



• 
  
  Whatever she chooses to do, only time will tell.  Meanwhile, I know I need to take care of myself and my D2 (which of course is a whole area of dysregulation triggering!).
  
  



• 
  
  But, all that said, it still sucks and feels pretty bad.  I feel that knot in my stomach, and although I should be focusing on a lot of work that I need to get done, I am quite distracted today. 
  
  

You did good.

Change does feel uncomfortable at first. Your old unhealthy habits are pushing on you.

How do you think this impacts your D?

Well done!  This is what we mean when we say this work isn't easy.  And it's not easy.  It's disruptive and triggering for our spouses.  Stay strong and remain consistent.  You are doing what is right for you, your daughter, and even your wife (although she doesn't see it that way).

Keep us updated.

I don't know how this hasn't been pointed out already, but your wife was dealing with some rejection from you guys' daughter. Causing her to withdraw, and say she doesn't want to take part anymore with her.

Hang in there man. She's not getting any better but I think you are not making it worse. Keep up the good work, although no good deed goes unpunished in our world. You gotta find some music or a long walk or something to recharge your drained emotional batteries.

FWIW, I am in a similiar situation but a few years down the road. My 8 year old son avoids Mommy when she's "grumpy", and the rejection keeps the borderline cycle churning.

Many thanks to all of you.  It really helps to have some sane validation.


I worry that her mom's push/pull, inconsistent rules, invalidation, and frequent dysregulation will affect her.  I try to be as supportive, validating, consistent, and stable as possible for her so that at least she has one such parent.  I give her hugs and tell her I love her very often.  She has gotten quite snuggly.  My wife claims that she is not, but I think it's just that my wife rarely goes for hugs.

I feel that at some level it is working.  She has had far fewer and shorter tantrums and seems to come to me more when her mom is dysregulated.  She also recently started talking about how she felt while doing some things (e.g., happy, scared, mad).


I'm sure you're right.

I told my wife that I can't pick up D2 from preschool because I have to work.  She reluctantly agreed to pick her up.  They sounded like they had at least an ok time at home after school.  So maybe my wife has un-split my daughter, but I'm still split black.


Thanks.  I do need to keep recharging.

I suppose it helps to remember this too.


Will do.

Very well done.  I only wish I had the strength you exhibit.  I see many similarities in what I am going through with my dBPDW and our d3.  It is a constant balance between meeting the needs of d3 and then paying the price for being so close to d3 or vice versa... . your post has inspired me to brush up on the tools again, it has been quite a while since I have posted.  Again, congratulations on your strength and bravery!

Thanks.  Not that long ago I was right where you seem to be and remember it well.  Of the things that really helped me, the main ones that come to mind have been:

Some understanding of BPD, probably because I tend to be a logical thinker (although strong emotions can certainly get in the way).  The books SWOE and Loving Someone with BPD, and this website were extremely helpful.

Practicing and internalizing the lessons and tools available here.

Great support from wonderful people here.

Using the lessons and tools one situation at a time.  Put one foot in front of the other, as slowly as you need to.  Next thing you know, at some point you look back and realize that you're walking.  Then at some point you notice that you walked right through an episode and came out the other side alive.

It's a good cycle that has gradually helped me build up my confidence.  As has happened to me quite a few times in therapy, I often do not realize that I have really made a change until after the fact, when I see that I actually did it.

As united for now, briefcase, and others have pointed out, it's not easy and it will be uncomfortable.

To start doing all this, I also needed a strong motivator.  My motivators were realizing that I had become very ineffective at work (and realistically worried that I could lose my job) and seeing the negative effects that my wife's behavior and our home environment were having on D2.

D2 seems to be doing better.  It's amazing how my lack of confidence at home carried through to practically every other aspect of my life (I guess I can't split as well as my uBPDw can).  Recently I've noticed my confidence at work going back up too, which helps me do a better job.

Wishing you all the best.  Focus on your health and your needs.  Try the lessons and tools bit by bit.  And post here as often as you want.

Hi

Maybe she was jealous of the attention your kid got? ALso, did the vacation itself trigger this (a change, a loss of stable routine?)

Shatra

Probably both.

After a couple of weeks, I'm just following up on this thread with a nice little note on my D2 and (here comes the self-serving part) a little pat on the back for myself (at least I think so).  :)

I started this thread after our D2 told her mom / my wife that she wanted mom to leave her room when we were putting D2 in bed.  I had left the room to go get something, and they both knew that I was about to come back within a few seconds.  My wife dysregulated, split our DD black, left the room, slammed the door to our room, then promptly followed up splitting me black too.

Fast forward to two weeks later.  We're putting our DD in bed (well, actually, I do most of the routine with DD because my wife just wants to watch TV instead, and she joins towards the end).  Practically at the end of the routine, DD calmly says she wants me to go and mommy to stay.  I asked for confirmation to make sure I was getting it right.  She confirmed.  I said ok, gave her some kisses, told her I love her, wished her goodnight and sweet dreams, and walked out.

Seconds after I leave the room, DD says she wants daddy to come back.  So I do.  I smile and say "Oh, I thought you wanted me to leave, I'm happy to come back!"  DD smiled, sort of a comfortable smile, not at all a devious one.  She sat up in bed, and gave me a huge hug. 

It felt as though she was testing, just to see what the response would be.

As to my wife saying that she is giving up on me and our D2, that rhetoric ended within several days, and things are mostly back to the way they were before.

This is a good example of when you stay calm and apply consistent and reasonable measures, rather than being reactionary, the push back response usually settles fairly quickly and all the bluff and bluster fades away.

As you see this more often the threats bother you less, and become just obviously disordered behavior that is no big deal at the end of the day.

We would all love our partners to be "cured", but for most that wont happen but it is still possible to manage it to a level where you can still have a happy life.

All good work

|iiii

Thanks, Waverider!

It is starting to feel more comfortable to "stay calm and apply consistent and reasonable measures".  And this feels good.

BTW, I'm starting to think that your name here ("waverider" may be related to how you've learned to ride the waves with your pwBPD, rather than getting pummeled under them.  :)

Well, here we are, back from one more vacation, and my wife split my D2 and me black again.  This trip was with my family (FOO), which tends to be a trigger.  She was going to skip the trip altogether, but then one week before the trip she decided she wanted to go.

There were a few crises during the week.  This time, at least one or two people in my FOO caught wind of some craziness.  Then on our way back home, D2 was very tired and grumpy at one point and pushed my wife away.  She had done the same to me.  But my wife took it as "yet another sign" that D2 wants nothing to do with my wife.  My wife has been cold to D2 since then.

D2 actually tried to approach my wife and get close to her several times, but my wife claims that all of them were because of my prompting.  Only one was, and I admitted it.  All the rest were not, and I told her so, but she does not believe me.  I feel sad and angry for my D2 that her own mother does not trust her good intentions in these times.

One day after we got back, my wife ignores both D2 and me as much as possible.  At least she was civil in the morning.  By the afternoon, she's clearly angry at both of us.  I walked away from a conversation that was starting to go bad.

She then put a one-way flight on hold for herself to leave in a few days.  Who knows if she will follow through.

She says D2 wants nothing to do with her (not true in my opinion).  Says it's all my fault for consistently undermining her for the past 6-12 months.  I did a few things earlier this year, and after we discussed them I do believe I stopped, except in very few occasions where I felt the need to distract or deflect when my wife was really getting bad with D2.  Today she can't give me any specific examples of undermining.  I don't think they are there, but I realize that she believes what she is saying.

After the 1-hour time out that I gave myself, I checked back in with her.  I tried SET several times.  It started to escalate again, so I gave myself another time out.  She followed me and told me she is going to actively undermine me with D2 so I can "see how that feels".  I ignored her.  She came back a couple more times, so I closed the door.

Once again, I have no idea how long this will last.  If it's like last time, within a few days she will decide to try again with D2.  Eventually she will back off from splitting me completely black.  I understand that it is the nature of BPD, and there is nothing I can do about it other than control my own behavior and be the solid support that my daughter needs.

But this time again (maybe more so this time), I wonder if my wife will really follow through with any of her threats, and I wonder if I should start a thread on the legal board.

Ugh.  BPD can really suck.  I realize I'm throwing myself a little pity party here.  At least, each time around the cycle I feel a bit stronger.  Many thanks to all of you for being there and for your support.  And maybe I do need to start putting together a plan, just in case it does all go to crap on one of these cycles.

Still "staying", but unfortunately less optimistic at the moment.

Zaqsert,   and here's a big one for your daughter, too

I have to admit that your story triggers me.  Your wife behaves so much like my mother.  Jealous and paranoid and putting adult expectations on a 2 years old child, her own daughter, while she (your wife) behaves like a brat.

I'm not saying this to alarm you or judge what's going on, it's more of an observation and linking it to what went on in my own family.

I won't go into many details, as you already know them, you're living them.

I have an older sister and she got the brunt of mother's wrath.  Dad adored sis and tried to protect her psyche to the point of enabling later on, when she turned to drugs and all kinds of other things.  Mother sat back in judgment, blaming dad for everything under the sun.  It was his fault that her kids turned out the way they did.  She told me he didn't think I was his, to draw a wedge between us-- 'Look at how he treats sis so much better than you'... 'Your sister never liked you'... . 'It's always been us against them'.  And on it would go... .

Divide and Conquer crap to the max.  Just plain old dysfunctional.  And dad couldn't deal.  He was no match for the twisted logic spewed by his wife, the mother of his children.  And he never said one mean word about her!

Your wife is sick and may not recover.  This might be as good as it gets.  My heart breaks for your daughter.

I'm sorry to not have a brighter happier note to leave you with... .   Trying to find logic in an adult making accusations against a 2 year old just sends me over the edge because it's nonsensical.  Adults are to protect children.  Mother's protect their children.  Father's protect their children. 

I haven't checked to see if you posted a thread on the legal board, but think it would be a really good idea to get other's feedback.  What your daughter is experiencing is BPD in the making stuff.  Her little psyche is being damaged, her development grossly askewed. 

It's not a good situation at all for anyone to be in.

Take good care of yourself and your daughter   I wish your wife the best, too.  This might be a glimpse of what she endured while growing up and it just keeps on happening :'(

Phoebe, thanks for the hugs.  I really needed those.

Thanks too for sharing your story.  I worry about the effect on my daughter.  I think you're right about this being a glimpse of what my wife went through growing up. 

My T suggested that the first 3 years, and even up to the first 5 years, are particularly important for children.  She said that if I can be present and very stable for my daughter during those years, it can drastically reduce the chances of her developing a personality disorder.  There may still be plenty of stuff for her to work out in therapy, but she will be off to a better start.

So I feel like I'm "staying" until she is 5 and will then reevaluate the situation.  If my wife and I ever do divorce, I will do everything I can to get as much time as possible with my daughter.  But the uncertainty of the legal outcome is a risk that I am unwilling to take right now.  Hey, I'm not exactly adding any bright and happy notes here either.

Interestingly... .   A little over an hour after I closed the door so that I wouldn't have to put up with my wife's threats of undermining me in front of our daughter, it was time to wake up our daughter so that she wouldn't nap too late into the afternoon.  I asked my wife if she wanted to join me.  She accepted.  Then she proceeded to be really nice, reasonable, motherly and loving to D2 for the rest of the afternoon and evening.  Well, at least until she was too tired and had to go to bed (she's been taking something to help her sleep), at which point she bailed from most of D2's bedtime routine.  D2 loved her time with her mom (my wife), as I would have expected.

I can only venture guesses as to what drove her to act this way tonight.  I wish I could hope that it would last, but it seems more likely that my wife will continue to cycle with D2 as she has with me over the past few years.  I hate that my 2 year-old daughter has to go through all this push/pull cycling.

Yea, I understand and want to apologize for being so grim.  You have a good sense of what's going on and have your daughter's best interest at heart  

Hone up on the Lessons and tools and keep on keeping on... .

I understand, but no need to apologize.  I appreciated what feels more like a realistic view at this point.


Will do.  Thanks again!

That's exactly where it came from

and my peaceful escape is:

(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/lane-ends2/EBAY3/IMG_0140.jpg) (http://www.s1128.photobucket.com/user/lane-ends2/media/EBAY3/IMG_0140.jpg.html)

Beats locking yourself in the bathroom !

Very nice!  It sure does beat locking yourself in the bathroom!  :)

I thnk a realistic approach as adviced by 123phoebe is important, in particular looking at realistic options in case it all goes sour. Not that I am saying leave, but if it comes to it, having a plan helps. Also knowing it is there reduces the feeling of being trapped.

Maybe your wife will always be like this, or at least there will be no quick fix, and a quick fix is what will be required to avoid it affecting your daughter.

You seem to be doing a reasonable job so far. There is limit to what you can do physically. It is more a case of not letting it get to you inside your head. Mental separation if you like.

Being consitent with your D along with lots of hugs, kisses and affirmations will go a long way towards protecting her. Many who grow up in dysfunctionality can cope as long as there is one strong stable parent. It is when the dysfuntional one dominates and cowers the other that reall damage is done.

Hi Zaqsert!

I just wanted to affirm that you are doing so well being a stable, and loving base for your daughter. I know it must be so heartbreaking at times. My D4 still struggles, and is able to verbalise it a little more now, which is helpful. My T recommended doing some Mindfulness stuff with her regarding her conflicting feelings about her father eg "a part of me wants him to go away, and another part of me loves him and wants him to stay" that we are made up of ever changing parts etc.

My T does play therapy so I am going to take D4 along next session.

We do what we can, and I think the concern is always there, as 123phoebe experienced, of our partners effecting our children more than we realise. 

Love Blazing Star

Thanks, Waverider.  I think you're right about looking at realistic options.  Even just starting to think about the options is helping me feel a bit less trapped.


Not letting it get to me inside my head is something I still need to work on.  It feels easier than it used to, but I'm still working on this part.  Actually, feeling a bit less trapped seems to be helping with this too.


Most definitely.  My wife has said that I coddle our daughter too much.  I'm ok with that.

It's interesting... .   I noticed recently that I give our daughter hugs and kisses all the time, while my wife asks our D to give hugs to her (my wife) periodically, sometimes apparently prompted by seeing me hug our D.  Then my wife complains that I get more affection from our D than she does, when in fact I'm the one who is giving it.  It's just that she does not see it that way.  Ever since I started noticing this, it feels like I can't stop noticing it.  I suppose it may be some combination of entitlement, control, or self-centeredness.  In any case, interesting.


Thanks, Blazing Star!


The mindfulness stuff with your D4 sounds like a great idea, as does play therapy.

I'll have to find out at what age I could start getting some therapy for D2 (soon to be D3).  I know we've talked about this before -- any leg up for her would be great.  Paraphrasing Waverider, to help give her some more stability among the dysfunction.

Do you find that when your wife is in a generous and caring mode it is not about caring or giving, there is an underlying agenda about receiving approval or praise? In other words its not about the receiver it is really is about her getting her needs met

As  a result gestures are high profile/visible with maximum praise per effort, and at a time that suits her. As opposed to quietly putting a lot of effort in at a time that suits the receiver, regardless of whether convenient for her.

When I saw this behavior for what it was it was a ight bulb moment that explained what seemed to be a contradiction, between apparent generosity and at other times selfishness. It's not selfless giving, it is buying approval when they need it.

Unrelated, but in the same vein... .

My mom is like this with a lot of things.  She expects people to come to her, yet doesn't reach out to them. Then gets really mad and black-lists them if they don't reach out to her in the amount of time she deems appropriate, threatens to cut off future gifts and goodies, because how dare they!  Now mind you, she hasn't lifted a finger to make any sort of contact or get to really know these people/family members/gift recipients (other than life dramas) and has in fact insulted them on numerous occasions... .

A lot of the time, the gifts she gives are actually things that she likes.  She has purchased things that are unique to my interests (nice!), when I talk about these interests though... .  She shows zero interest and may in fact make fun of them, usually when it's least expected, because the focus isn't on her.  By gifting me something, the focus is on her.

This is the sort of thing that as a younger unaware person, I really let get to me; it was so confusing!  It looked like she was interested, but it sure didn't feel like it.  Then guilt would set in that I would even question anything about my mother who MUST love me.  I lost my sense of self and direction, because if my own mom wasn't showing an active interest in my life, then I must be a weirdo doing something wrong and I'd lose interest in my own interests   If I got more love and attention by focusing on her and her needs, by god I was going to get that love any way I could!  I was scared to death to have it snatched away.  After all, she really does have it harder than I do... .   And in rolled the fog... .

Fear  Obligation  Guilt

My sister on the other hand, fought her and fought her HARD!  No way was mom putting up with any of that defiance; she fought back harder and eventually broke my sister down.  There was no winning that fight.  It was a battle of broken and underdeveloped wills.  Everyone in the family lost.

These are issues that might need to be eased and quelled within your daughter over time... .

Your mum sounds like my partners family

Even with breast cancer, have they been to visit no, and they all live in same city. But they keep asking her to visit their family gatherings. They are the ones who are high functioning mobile not my partner.

They paint me white "for what I have to put up with". Her mum went out and bought me an expensive present on behalf of the family, something I was going to buy for myself anyway, in appreciation. Did it get my respect? No, as I see it as throwing money at me to get approval, and also to out source her duty of care. If the family really cared how tough i am doing it with BPD and Cancer then they would get off their butt and share some of that care and give me respite. But then whipping out the credit card with a whole lot of fanfare and buying a dose of approval without personal effort is easier.

So it is clear to me there is a degree of PD in the family background.

Yea, it's just so wrong and backwards.  And I would imagine it puts a huge strain on your partner; conflicting feelings = CONFLICT.  It has to be expressed in some way.  If her own family doesn't care then why should she

That is the huge difference between choosing to be in relationship and one where a child has no choice, or voice way too often.

Zaqsert, you have 3 roles to attend to... .  

You are choosing to be with your wife.  Your daughter didn't choose this turmoil, though she naturally loves you and her mother.  And you need to take really super duper good care of yourself through all of this... .

Stay strong!

Yes, and as in your case the child can think this is normal and develop unhealthy coping mechanisms, and as you have reminded Zaqsert, looking after himself to make sure he is safe and grounded is the only way a child can know the difference and not take dysfunctionality as a role model.

It took my partner until only recently, and she is now 50, that in fact her family are not the "perfect" family they portray to be. I think this is because they are all damaged in some way, yet high functioning. My partner is low functioning and as such is the weak link in a damaged chain, so took all the strain

Oh sure, so did the focus go primarily on your partner, to take the focus off of the rest of the family?

My mom made my sister the focus.  Instigated.  Then blamed dad for 'spoiling' her (protecting).  Would rant that sister ran the household, it's all about her and would tell me "Just watch how dad panders to her.  She has him wrapped around her little finger".

I could see the discrepancies, would try to soothe my mom's emotions, my thoughts would get shot down and eventually I caved.  I needed to believe in something.  I needed to get some needs met!

When sis eventually turned to drugs, it was a free for all!  Man, all the family issues could be directed right towards her!

yep, alcohol and med abuse made her the no hope loser. Yet alcoholism killed her dad during the same time, but that was hidden because everyone liked him and he did it in secret.

Anyway lets no get too far ahead of Zaqserts issue and hijack this thread, as issues like this are a long way off hopefully...

Point of this being Zaqsert, dysfunctional backgrounds can have a long lasting ripple effect if you dont keep a centered influnce on kids. Hiding and denying there is an issue can be extremly harmful. It is best if they know Mum "acts a little nuts" at times, rather than just put it in the dont mention it basket as though its not happening

Phoebe, my wife sounds quite a bit like your mom.  She has an uncanny way of not reaching out to others, expecting them to reach out to her, and getting angry when they don't.  With my FOO she will even try to tell me that they ignored her despite the fact that she was being really nice to them.  She used to try to pit me against them too.  Now I finally learned to validate her feelings (at least to some extent) and then not take the bait.

Waverider, no worries about any thread hijacking.  I appreciated the tangent.  Quite a bit of it applies to my situation.

I do need to take care of myself some more, to help all this get to my head less.

Great point too about talking about mommy's anger and bad moods rather than trying to ignore them altogether.  Sometimes my daughter will even ask "What happened to mommy?"

Thanks again for your support and suggestions!

My husband used to just stare at our infant son when he was in a triggered mood.  I hated that.  Our son would cry, not understanding why daddy wouldn't respond to him.  It only happened once in a while, but it was hard.

You are clearly doing a good job and doing the best you can to shield your D2 from your wife's childish emotions and her putting adult emotions/motives on your daughter.

I think it gets very hard to do.  I am separated from my husband now.  I admire you for hanging in there.  Sometimes you can keep it up and protect your kid and make it work.  I'm glad you had a nice vacation anyway.

Zaqsert,

I have posted before and I want to commend you on working so hard on a difficult situation.  My mom is BPD and my dad was my rock.  I didn't turn out perfectly normal (ha ha obviously because I am married to a uBPDh) but I have no PD (I have been tested).  I am a successful, self-sufficient professional woman and mother and its because my dad was there for me.  As I got older he'd say, "I love your mother more than anything but she's acting crazy... . don't worry about it... . it isn't you."  He didn't have the tools that we have and he was terrible at boundaries.  But simply the fact that he could recognize the behavior for what it was, not get emotionally enmeshed, and continue to provide stability for me -- went a long way.  You are making a huge sacrifice for your daughter and going about it in as healthy a way as possible.   |iiii


Agree wholeheartedly from experience.  My dad wasn't good with emotions but he was my rock and he didn't let my mom completely dominate.

Thanks, Momtara and Allibaba.  At the moment I'm wondering how much longer I can hang in there, but I'm still hanging in there.  Having followed your posts, you both clearly show a lot of strength in what you are going through.

I just found out today that my boss thinks I'm not doing a good job, and he transferred part of my responsibilities to someone else, at least temporarily.  I couldn't even feel much of the anger over it because I was too busy caring for D2 after my wife dysregulated again today, split me way black, and went on to ignore our daughter.  It wasn't until after I had D2 in bed that I could start to feel the anger and disappointment over my job situation.  And a significant factor in why I have not been able to perform well has been all the drama at home.  Accepting, detaching, and the rest of the lessons have helped, but perhaps a bit too late.  Well, maybe this is something I should take up on the Taking Personal Inventory board -- I'm not quite sure where it belongs.  At the very least, I will set up a session with my T.

Hi Zaqsert,

I remember reading your post about wanting help with a DEARMAN script before and then I happened to see this thread.

I read something helpful today and I thought I'd share it with you-

"The care you give yourself is the care you give your loved one"

I actually saw it randomly on a carer's website however it really appealed to me. It's understandable that you're under stress given your current circumstances however I would urge you to take good care of yourself and be gentle on yourself. I think that setting an appointment with your T is a great idea. Even little acts of self-care such as going for a walk will help. Keep seeking out support on the website-you seem like a great dad to your daughter :)

Hi Musicfan42.  Thanks.  I do need to take better care of myself.  Something as simple as a walk does sound like a good idea.  Tomorrow I'm going to get a massage.  My wife booked it for the two of us.  I'm pretty sure she will go through with it too since she needs it, but I can only imagine the looks I may get on the way there and back.  It's good that those tend not to get to me anymore.

I really appreciate the support that I get from so many of you here.

On a positive note, it seems I may be getting better at using SET.  Background:

- D2 dropped her fork on the floor at the beginning of dinner and asked me to pick it up.

- I smiled and told her that since she dropped it on purpose, I will not pick it up for her.  I reminded her that we do not drop things from the table.

- My wife told her it's not nice to drop things like that on purpose.  She said "We've talked about this before, so because you dropped it on purpose, no more hit_ after dinner."

- I thought to myself that she should have warned first, but instead I just repeated that "we don't drop things from the table on purpose."

- Then I decided to validate our D2.  I said "Maybe you dropped it so that we would pick it up for you."

- And followed it up with a new option: "Since you dropped it on purpose, you can get down and pick it up, then I'll wipe it off for you so you can use it."

- During my last two sentences, my wife got really angry.  She said I undermined her "again".

- I really had no idea what I had done to make her feel this way.

After I finished putting D2 in bed, I went over to my wife and said:

S:  I said something that clearly made you feel undermined.

E:  It feels really crappy to be undermined.

T:  I need you to explain what I said that made you feel this way.

She paused.  Then, still furious, told me that when I offered D2 a reason why she might have dropped the fork, then that undermined my wife's statement that dropping the fork was "not nice".  It felt like such bizarre logic that I just said thanks for explaining it to me.  At least I got an answer, which is more than I have gotten on other occasions.  She also said that at no time did I tell D2 that I agree with my wife, further undermining.  I ignored this part.

zaqsert:

WOW... . |iiii you are coping so well. This is almost exactly what happened to me. My BPD H just decided he gave up on me and doesnt want to communicate with me ever again. That's because after 8 years I still do not know what triggers him to get upset and I dont know how to comfor him. Even though he is not talking, he didnt mean separate. I still do my part as a housewife, housework, fixing meals and paying the bills. He just talks to me like normal when the kids and others are around and gives no response or some really mean hurtful words when we are alone. Only say something when he wants me to buy him cigarettes or food. Did your wife do that? Like ignore you when you guys are alone? It's been two weeks now and I have been texting him and telling him I love him and stuff everyday. Getting no response and I am not sure if I am in the right direction. With my 1 and 3 year old, my H gets super jealous when they come hug me before him when we pick them up. And if they call mommy first instead of daddy in the morning when they get up. Your W may be a bit over board already, but what I do to keep my H not feeling too unimportant is that I make my H do certain things with the kids and I don't get involved unless he asks me to. Like he would be in charge of doing all the baths, taking them to swimming and outdoor play. He is doing okay in front of the kids and once in a while he would raise his voice in a way that my 3 year old gets scared, but immediately he will explain to him why he is upset. When my H gets upset at me and starts raising his voice, I thought my 3 year old to say ":)addy, don't be upset" and he would soften and hold his anger till the kids go to bed at least. I am worried too about my son because it seems like he is losing his temper very easily lately and he is unsure why himself when I talk to him. I hope it's just part of a normal "terrible 2 n 3" stage.

Counsellor did suggest leaving him... . because his action is a form of mental abuse... . and in the long run, it will just damage me and the kids. But I still love him and want to try until he gets to a point where he is out of control even in front of the kids. Is there any hope?

Hey there Zaqsert,

One of the things that I have struggled with (at times) is doing a good job at work while all the craziness and drama was going on.  For me personally, I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve and I have history with my company and a good professional reputation... . so when my husband started to lose it... . I just told my boss.  It turns out that his wife is Bipolar and he went through a time that culminated in him physically dragging her to the doctor for medication after what he described as 2 yrs of hell.  I got the impression that he never would have shared that information if I hadn't stepped forward. 

Now I tell him anytime that there is a major dyregulation and so he knows when I get less efficient that there is something going on.  He appreciates this because he knows when there are times where my focus will be elsewhere.  This is the solution that works for me only because my boss and company respect me very much.  It could have easily backfired but to date it works for me.

One of my boundaries is that my husband cannot interfere with me at work.  I used to drop everything and run home if there was an issue.  I cannot do that anymore.  One of the ways that I protect myself and my family including my husband is by protecting my job.

Just thought that I would throw those 2 cents in.  Hopefully they are helpful.

My T usually won't see anyone under 6, but feels as she knows me and knows how things are with my D4 that she (D4) would be okay with it now. So I guess it may depend upon the therapist?

Love Blazing Star

Zaqsert,

I came back to your thread to read your experience because it brings me comfort, again.  I feel like we have such parallel situations, except you are so much more mature and further along in your handling of wife than I am.  I am here, because once again, same as always, my dBPDw has shredded me tonight.  Amazingly even after a great day and night, where I tried to do everything right.  One miscalculated statement on my part, because it was late, I am tired, horrendous week at work, stressful few days financially, and I slipped, and spoke a hard truth.  She had lost something that we found tonight was in my car, and she actually got irritated with me and attempted to blame me for not finding it in my car yet... .I had had my fill, because she has been extremely petty and emotional all week, and I said, "how come you always blame everybody else when something happens... .", well I saw the switch in her eye when I said it, I am sure you know the one, and right then I knew I had sealed my fate for the evening... .so now she is divorcing me again and wishes she never met me - not to mention that we have been married 10 years and have 2 children, then tonight she wants to put D to bed - who told her mid routine that she wants daddy - so now I have turned our daughter against her, and we have some kind of weird relationship, according to my wife.  Sometimes, I really get sick of playing the game, but what is the choice... .I refuse to give up one day with my children if we were to not be married... .I am so highly irritated with this turn of events tonight, I don't think I even know what is normal any more - I live on egg shells.  Sorry for the whining and pity party, I just needed somewhere to vent. 

Hi George2,

It's really tough riding that emotional roller coaster.  I'm sorry you're going through all that.

If you don't mind my probing, I'm curious about a few things... .

To what extent do you feel responsible for your wife's feelings or her happiness?

To what extent do you believe you have control over her feelings or happiness?

To what extent do you feel obligated to try to help her feel better anyway?

If she were, actually, to divorce you, to what extent to you think you would be able to change her mind.

I suppose what I'm getting at are FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt) and whether you feel you are focused on what you need for you and your kids vs. what your wife tells you she needs, which I'm guessing changes often.

I think some of the turning points for me were:

- Finally realizing that no matter how much I tried, I could not make my wife feel better or feel happier.  Her needs constantly changed, and I kept ending up a few steps behind, over and over.  So I stopped trying.  I am trying to get better at validating her feelings, but not getting on the roller coaster with her.

- Some combination of realizing that it's ok for me to enforce my own boundaries (including not being verbally abused) and realizing that I have no control over what she chooses to do, seems to have gotten me to a point where if she really were to leave, I don't think I would stop her.

- Each time she threatens to <fill in the blank> and then acts as though that never happened, I see her threats as less and less credible.  So I get less and less worked up.

- Practice, practice, practice (with the tools).  Less than a week ago my wife dysregulated and accused me of turning our D2 (almost D3) against her.  I walked away from that conversation faster than I ever had before, so I had far less exposure to verbal/emotional abuse and, for all I know, she may have had less time for the feelings to set in.  We barely interacted for the rest of that night.  By the next morning, it was as if nothing had ever happened.

Hang in there, stay strong for you and your kids, and keep posting.

Since this thread has gotten kind of long, feel free to start a new one of your own since it may get more views and responses addressed specifically at what you are going through.

Its times like that that causes me an internalized eye roll, then just get on with life. The lack of consistency means that no matter what wild threat or promise is made it will blow over and doesn't necessarily need my involvement. Which in fact can often prolong it

I am doing what I believe to be right, and that's enough for me.

Sometimes i too often "loose it" and react not the best, make things worse. Thats OK too we are just human, but I have learned to get over it quicker too.

Thanks Zaqsert and waverider.  I appreciate the support.

Zaqsert, to answer your questions, generally, I believe I too often feel responsible for her moods, emotions, outbursts, thus, her condition.  Rationally, I know this not to be true, but living the life with a BPDw has made me completely reactionary to her, and whatever mood she is rolling into.  What is really crazy, is that she accuses me every day of being controlling, but I feel I am constantly controlled by her moods.  I think since the birth of our D4 and now S1, I have even been worse, because I feel like I am constantly trying to prevent the cycle to dysregulation.  I really feel exhausted most of the time, and do find so much joy and solace in my children - but she manages to try and ruin that too - again, accusing me of turning our daughter against her, "mothering" our children and taking her place, and choosing my daughter's side over her.  As far as her divorcing me, I think I spend the hour or so afterward trying to convince her not to divorce me, filling her full of co-dependent BS, and then after she comes back to earth, getting so angry with her.  I really would not fear the divorce if it wasn't for the children.  It terrifies me to think she would try and take the children and I would see less of them - yes, that terrifies me and gives her power over me with the divorce card... .I am pathetic.  I am a highly trained professional in my job, and yet, with my wife and her anger (screaming, throwing and breaking things that mean something to me, threatening to leave me), I am pathetic.

Tonight was interesting however, as she and I had made plans to have dinner at friends house.  30 minutes before we were supposed to be there, she calls and says she is not going, she feels sick (although she had been dragging the children around all afternoon shopping).  I first flipped out (wrong, I know), because it is once again embarrassing making excuses for her changeable and flaky ways - but then I decided to take D4 with me and go eat, let the kids play, and enjoy it - which I actually did, probably too much.  When I got home she was a happy as can be - but then because I wasn't excited about all the stuff she bought today, which she forced me to look at, she got mad and said I put too much pressure on her to dress the kids a certain way, etc... .(again, this is my fault?)    

George2,

It sounds like you have a good understanding of your role in things (you know intellectually that you are NOT causing the issues but that you have allowed her to behave badly and placated her).

It sounds like you don't want to continue this way.

Where can you start making changes?

In my life, in the interest of keeping the peace I let my husband get away with murder and then he got worse and worse to the point where we had no peace (ever).  When it got to be too much I started making some changes.  


I am a highly trained professional too.  I remember feeling incredibly pathetic that my husband controlled things the way that he did.  If it were me, I would select the most dangerous and damaging behavior and start with some boundaries.  I'm not going to lie -- its the toughest step in the world.  There are lots of men on these boards that have advise on how to protect yourself.  

Does anyone else KNOW what is happening in your house (therapist, family, friends)?  I found that no longer protecting my husband's bad behavior with silence and excuses was important for me.

Hi George2,

Good for you for going with your D4 to dinner at your friend's house!  Keep doing things that you need, both for yourself and with your kids.

Similar to allibaba, I also stopped making excuses for my wife earlier this year.  If she decides not to go somewhere, that's her choice.  I will no longer cover up for her.  I feared my wife's wrath at first, but now it feels better to be honest and not continue to enable her.

pwBPD (people with BPD) tend to project more than others.  Your wife may not like that she is controlling.  But if she can't handle the fact that she is controlling, she may project it onto you instead, accuse you of being controlling, and tell you how horrible you are.  As I've come to terms with that about my wife, it's interesting how her projections can often give me insight into what may be going on in her mind.

It sounds like you've figured out by now that trying to prevent the cycle to dysregulation is a futile feat.  You may manage to do it successfully on some occasions, but her needs and triggers will change.  What works once may not work the next time, and if you defuse one bomb then another one beside it may go off.  It's really hard after playing the fixer role for so many years.  The thing is, you can't really fix it.  Only your wife can learn how to regulate her own emotions.

Everyone is different, so I can't say to what extent your wife would actually follow through with any threats of divorce.  In my case, I used to plead with her not to divorce me and pleeeease come to marital therapy with me.  Then I started to treat the threats as verbal abuse and started to walk away from them instead.  Interestingly, I have not heard threats of divorce recently.

I can also relate to being a highly trained professional, on my knees (or worse) at home, which affected my work too for a while.  I suppose that's why many call BPD "crazy making".

As allibaba mentioned, whenever you make changes, be prepared for an extinction burst.  My wife's was big.  Allibaba's husband's was huge.  But if you hang in there long enough, they tend to get past it.

At the same time, I agree that you should hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  I commend you for working on your marriage.  All of us here will support you in whatever your goals may be.  Meanwhile, the protection that allibaba refers to is that some extinction bursts are massive.  I personally found it eye-opening to read some of the threads over on the legal board.  After I got past the initial shock, I felt that if things ever do turn for the worst, I will be better prepared to protect myself and our daughter.  I hope I will never need it, but it is comforting to feel that chances are pretty good that I will be ok (and not blindsided).

Hello Zaqsert and Allibaba - I cannot tell you comforting it has been reading your posts.   :)  I have felt so alone fighting this illness for so many years - I would be lying if I said there aren't many nights I have just cried and prayed and ask "Why?"... .I consider myself an intelligent person, and yet this illness has floored me for so long.  The conditioning has been trying to predict the tidal wave and stop it before it crashes into me - but as you know, that is nearly impossible.  I have gained the best success by working some of the tools - as silly as they say coming out of my mouth - they seem to defuse her.  For example.  My mother, God love her, is a completely selfless woman who would give the coat off her back to someone.  She of course, has beat her head against the wall for the ten years my W and I have been married.  She actually has done remarkable, and has given her so much time, love and gifts - dropped everything to see her, and tries to consistently be there.  The hardest thing for me to still comprehend and stomach, is how mean, vicious and venomous my W can talk about her to me - so I found myself in the unenviable cannot win situation of trying to explain my Mother's comments to my W, which in her brain, made it that much worse.   She can on the other hand be so amazing to my Mother and can and has done many things for her... .it is just the other side, when the worm turns, and it is so hard to hear - granted, I am very close to my Mother and she is in her 70's - it just breaks my heart to hear the filth that can pour out of my wife's mouth.  If you met my wife though, she is the sweetest, kindest, and most timid person (most of the time) - I really think I am the only one that sees this side of her - although my parents have now seen episodes.  Sorry for the long question, but the question is:  How do you recommend dealing with this about my Mother - I have found the only thing that works has been the times I have lied to her, and agreed with her twisted view of my Mother.  I do understand the root, as most older women, my Mother can speak bluntly at times, not cruel, just truthfully - and of course, I have discovered that someone with BPD cannot handle the truth when they are dysregulated.  Thanks for allowing me to type here.  Good night to all. 

This is a good question, and most of us have had to deal with this. This is were you have to accept their reality is twisted and you are unlikely to convince them otherwise. As you realize though, agreeing to things that go against your morals just to keep the peace eventually eats you up.

It is hard but you have to let a lot of this wash and simply use empathy and support, while keeping your truth. But it is not necessary to convince her of your truth. Agreeing with her will provide intermittent reinforcement. So she will believe that if she perceiveres long enough she can get you to agree against your will. So NEVER do this. But leave her to her opinions.

eg If she believes your mother is a witch that just crawled down the chimney, don't try saying she is not. Focus more on saying that it must be awful for your wife to think about people like that. You are glad that you don't think of your mother like that. That is a short example of SET... You hear what she is saying, you are empathizing that it must feel bad to think that. Your truth is that you dont see it that way. At the same time you are not invalidating the way your wife feels.

Not saying it will avoid conflict, but it will reduce the fuel you add to it, and you will feel less frustrated in yourself. Neither will you feel like you are betraying your mother.

My partner has this issue with her own mother in the sense of oversensitive pwBPD being spoken to in a frank no nonsense way. Things are misunderstood and misconstrued the whole time. They are toxic to each other

I'm really, really glad that your parents have seen some of the episodes.  Do you ever talk openly with your mom about your wife's mental illness.  I found that calling it MENTAL ILLNESS and being really honest about it with those who are close and those that I can trust has made a world of difference for me.  It keeps me rooted in REALITY or at least MY REALITY lol.  Sometimes we can even have a laugh about it.  My husband is under stress at the moment and yesterday he actually told me that "I am the reason that the US has the problems that it has right now."  Before I might have gotten really depressed that my husband felt that I was that bad... .now I can laugh.  It is actually funny.  I'm American but I haven't live in the US for YEARS and even if I did I'm just a grain of sand... .how could I cause the US's problems?  lol


  I agree wholeheartedly with waverider.  Sometimes my husband goes off on the most bizarre tirades about my family.  My father is also in his 70's and he doesn't have a nasty bone in his body.  He has Alzheimer's and its hard to hear the horrible things that come out of my husband's mouth about him. 

My husband sometimes says that my family's lack of organization and structure and morals and values caused my dad to 'lose his mind' (haven't heard it in a while but this is an example).  Now my dad was the most anally organized human being I have ever met.  He woke up at 4am every morning.  Did most of the housework... .walked the dogs... .worked full time (my mom is high functioning BPD).  He used to hang up his trousers with the fly facing the WEST, same hangers for all clothing, 3 inches between each hanger.  Clearly his Alzheimer's was not caused by a lack of structure in his life.  I do not JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) my actions or beliefs with my husband when he is dyregulated.  If he wants to believe that my dad caused his illness... .fine what business is it of mine.  I know my truth in my heart and that is what matters to me.

Now if he starts to make comments about me being a disgusting human being... .lack of organization, structure etc and it is becoming verbally abusive then its time for boundaries.

Waverider provided good guidance on another posting

demands>disengage

abuse>boundaries

If my husband starts demanding that I spend less time with my dad.  I disengage with the conversation (change topics) and move on.  If he starts to be abusive then its time for boundaries.

We're so glad that you are here!  Oh once a pwBPD stops getting the reaction that they are looking for from you on certain topics they usually move on to try to find something else that will trigger you.  :)