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I recently purchased a book by Keith Ablow, forensic psychiatrist, called "inside the mind of Casey Anthony", knowing there would be some thought provoking gems in there. It is LOADED with them.

Anyway, the following paragraph (about Casey Anthony's mother) kept me up thinking until 3am:

“Enablers are power hungry and addicted to control. They make excuses for the damaging or self-destructive behavior of those close to them because it increases their importance as the seemingly “stable” center around which chaos and depravity swirl. Without sick people depending on them to stay afloat, enablers wouldn’t be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. They would have to focus on it, and therefore, feel it. And they will do almost anything to avoid that.”

I know we like to think of ourselves as "normal" victims of the bad, mean BPD's, but it's simply not true--our dysfunction isn't the same as theirs, but it is dysfunction nonetheless.

I'm more of a "fixer" than an "enabler", but I believe they belong in the same category and there is definitely overlap. I don't tend to make excuses for the dysfunctional people I surround myself with, and I become very resentful of their dependency. But I bend over backwards to find useable solutions to problems people didn't ask me to help them with. I don't surround myself with dysfunction more pronounced than my own because I want to look stable by comparison--but because I don't believe I deserve better. I mean, who else would possibly like me than someone now indebted to me because of all I've done for them? But I clearly recognize that the "fixer" is just as determined as the "enabler" to be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. Maybe the outward methods are slightly different, but the root motivation is the same.

And not only that, but all of this shares something fundamental with the personality disorders---a nonexistent or severely blurred sense of self/identity. Yes, I can pinpoint various things that brought this about in myself, but what is more important is how to replace it with something more healthy. Recognition is only the first step. And I've been working on this in counseling for a year now.

Comments? Shared experience?

It took me a long time to work through the wall I had up that kept me from dealing with past hurts.  I mean, once you aren't distracting yourself with coping mechanisms like trying to fix a dysfunctional partner, throwing your hands up and saying ok, everyone is going to have to do without my fixing to keep them from disaster, then I could start focusing on the feelings I wasn't allowed to feel and then self imposed from feeling.

I went through 12 step at celebrate recovery and went through my whole life experiences with my mentor.  She was not impressed with my ability to name off really bad things like a grocery list.  She said you aren't feeling this, most people cry throughout this process.  I'm such a failure.  lol  Then it started coming back in little bits, like my inner child was releasing some small things to see if I could be trusted.  If I could be loving and unconditional.  Then more started coming through and then one night, I sobbed all night long as the wall finally came down.  Now I let myself feel things in the moment, now I cry at those commercials that tug at the heart strings, I can cry on a dime because the feelings are so close now, accessible.  That is the good feelings, too, like joy and love are more accessible.

The first step in my healing was to put a kabash on any critical put downs in my thoughts, reworked those big time.  It started with learning how to love myself and my T was super unconditional and supportive, I was being reparented by her.  

This is a really good topic doubleAries-thanks for posting it. :)

I'm more of a fixer than an enabler too. I don't make excuses for people either; in fact, I'm actually very harsh on people and tend to assume the worst.

I've really stopped fixing though. I think that my abandonment issues are at the root of my codependent behaviors. My BPD ex talked openly about his abandonment issues and I think this is what bonded us together in the first place-our abandonment issues. I feel that I had one good parent whereas he had none-both of his parents were useless basically.

I think that fixing was a way to stop people from abandoning me. I thought that if I helped someone, then they'd need me... . they'd grow dependent on me and never leave me. I resented their dependency however the fear of abandonment was so strong that I actually preferred to care-take and fix rather than face the prospect of being on my own. I couldn't stand being on my own-I couldn't stand my own company... . I really didn't like myself and when I was on my own, I felt completely empty... . I just didn't think there was anything there. I didn't think I had an identity unless I was with someone. I defined myself as a fixer-that was my identity and it gave me much needed self-esteem, even if it was only a temporary fix of self-esteem and never really filled the hole inside me. It was basically better than nothing. I felt that I was nobody on my own-that nobody wanted me. When I was younger, I would feel very emotionally distressed if I felt that people disliked me... . it would actually ruin my day. My self-esteem was based on what other people thought of me-if people liked me, I thought that I was great whereas if they didn't, I thought that I was an awful person. I internalised other peoples' views of me all the time and took their opinions as fact instead of questioning it a bit more.

I didn't even want to look like the better one. Part of it definitely was that I thought I couldn't do any better so I was stuck with the losers/rejects. I felt that I was a misfit so I tended to gravitate towards misfits... . I had a really distorted self-image. It took me ages to realise that I was actually quite conventional and once I realised that, I wasn't as attracted to misfits. I realised that I was normal and that I really wanted normality. I never had normality in my life as a child and that's the thing I want above all. I would read psychology books, trying to figure out what "normal" was because I honestly didn't know. I knew that I was dealing with some situations badly however I couldn't figure out where I was going wrong. It was a very frustrating and painful time for me. I thought "if I just figure out where I'm going wrong, then I'll be fine"  but it took me so long to figure out and in the meantime, I felt like I was crawling in my own skin... . it felt unbearable... . I actually felt suicidal at times because I felt that I couldn't take anymore... . couldn't take any more pain, frustration etc. I thought "when will I feel better?" There seemed to be no end in sight and I seemed to be making the same mistakes all the time so I just hated myself really. I felt a lot of despair really.

I also think that enablers may cling to control because they're in an unpredictable environment... . around an unstable person all the time so they try to control whatever they can. I developed an eating disorder and I think that some of it was about numbing my feelings... . about escapism but later, it turned into a control mechanism (I started off by binging but eventually, I dieted and almost became anorexic). I derived an amazing sense of accomplishment from controlling my food intake. I would look at other people eating more than me in disgust-I'd think that I was so much better than them because I was eating so healthy... . that they were just pigs in comparison to me. That gave me an ego boost. Controlling my food intake made my emotions feel more in control... . I'd feel more confident and able to handle life in general... . it gave me a sense of empowerment that I previously didn't have in my life. I had this sense of hopelessness in my life and I only felt confident when I was restricting my food intake... . otherwise, I felt that I was nothing. (still warped sense of identity there).

It took me a while to realise that I had to address my eating issues in a serious manner... . that it wasn't really about the weight... . that there were underlying issues underneath it all and I only really achieved any progress once I started to address the emotional angle of it.

It's great that you're working on this doubleAries. You mention that you've been working on this issue for a year-I can see that you've really achieved great insight and you've got me thinking about it which is always a good thing. It's really hard work, trying to figure all this stuff out however I am so glad that you've posted this as it's something I'm currently grappling with!

Great thread, sobering. I do agree that cd and enabeling is not healthy for anyone and is full of (fueled by) distorted thoughts and beliefs,  ... . not dissimilar to the distorted thinking we lament with BPD. CD is also on a spectrum.  The Casey Anthony example of enabling would be at the extreme end of the spectrum, and learning about it as a cautionary tale can be a useful way to "see" and become more aware of traits even if you are at the lower end of the spectrum.  

Gives me a lot to think about.

One thing I am finally beginning to grasp in my counseling about all this is about the emotional aspect of it all. That has been eluding me for a LONG time. I have figured out this or that over and over, only to find myself right back in the morass I was trying to figure out how to escape. I never allowed the emotions that were forbidden my entire childhood. I thought I could think my way out of my psychological turmoil.

I grew up with a witch mother. While it is no longer an entry in the DSM, my mom fits the entire criteria list for Sadistic Personality Disorder (with borderline features) PERFECTLY. In some ways (except for someone actually being killed physically) the Casey Anthony example doesn't measure up to what went on in my childhood home. My "escape" from there was to visitation at my NPD alcoholic/addict fathers house, where I would be fondled in my bed until I cried, then was made to feel guilty for rejecting my fathers extremely inappropriate sexuality. Then I'd go back "home" (if that's what you want to call it) to the witch, and the psychological, emotional, and physical abuse. I had no control at all. None. I wasn't allowed to decide anything at all for myself--not my hair, clothes, music, how my "free time" was spent, when I would bathe, when I would sleep, whether I was allowed to eat, ANYTHING. Punishments ranged from being padlocked into my room, to being sent away to abusive fundamentalist concentration camps, to having my pets killed in front of me and being forced to eat them, to just being beaten senseless. I was never taken to a dentist, rarely went to a doctor unless it was absolutely critically necessary, and never taught any of the things necessary to independence. My mother didn't use waify guilt to wield her absolute control--she used the iron fist and annihilating rage. All the emotional oxygen was sucked from the room when she was there. My brothers and I were zombies. So was my stepdad. Displays of distress during her tirades only added fuel to the fire--we learned to "suck it up" and act like getting our faces slammed into the floor for the crime of eating food was nonchalant. There was a choice--express our anguish and watch in horror as she clearly and obviously fed off it, or deny our own selves, to extinguish our own souls and become invisible, nonexistent props. We all chose the latter.

I honestly believed if I could just grow up and get away from my parents, I would be "normal". When I wasn't, I was devastated. All the vile put downs she told me about myself must be true.

Even after I figured out that my unconscious habits/patterns were geared around dealing with extreme dysfunction, and that was why I found myself square in the middle of extremely dysfunctional situations and relationships (where I could use the only skills I had), I still couldn't THINK my way out of it. I am still grappling with the idea that the internal psychological turmoil I seek distraction from is emotional in nature--not intellectual, and must be coped with emotionally, not intellectually. I don't know how. Emotions have never been anything resembling safe in my life. Now that I am beginning to experience some of them, I am frightened at the loss of control I feel during the experience. I mean REALLY frightened. It may take a long time to breach that wall, in spite of my determination.

"Funny" how it is so clear to me what needs to be done to "help" someone else, but when it comes to myself, I'm lost without a compass... .

Omg,

DA, the abuse you suffered as a child is just staggering.

Why can a child be tormented like you were for years and no adult stepped in to rescue YOU?

Agh! It makes me want to scream! God dammit! WTF!

:'(

MaybeSo, your empathy means more than you can know.

I never believed what went on in my childhood was normal, but since no one ever did intervene, I believed I didn't matter enough for anyone to intervene for. Like musicfan42, my "self" value became based on what others think of me. If they like me, I'm good. If they don't, I'm bad.

I'm not just trying to cope with emotions--I'm trying to give CPR to my soul, which is in a coma. 

   

I am so sorry DA. I have to feel that at sometime there will be incredible sorrow for anyone who has harmed a child. Total black bleak sorrow that overwhelms them to agony. No child should suffer and especially not suffer at the hand of a parent, the very person whose job should be to love and protect.

This thread has been enormously helpful to me. I have been spending far too much time trying to understand intellectually what happened. I think you're right, it's an emotional issue and it needs to be dealt with emotionally. The problem is I have gotten so used to stuffing those emotions away that I have a hard time recognizing them. My new motto has been:

Recognize it

Name it

Feel it

Deal with it

And although it can be hard to recognize, it's the feeling it part that is the more difficult. All the best DA. Thank you for sharing and encouraging. Cumulus.

I agree with you DA.

The 12 step program coined the term “enabling” – it’s a buzz word.

A person, who is self destructive, has no reason to change if there are no consequences. If rescued from consequences, they are enabled to continue on with the destructive/addictive behaviour. Is fixing, rescuing and enabling the same thing? I personally think so. Enabling is simply not allowing a person to face consequences.

At first enabling/fixing/rescuing provides a person with value. I know it did for me. My worth was dependent on how much I could fix. When it doesn’t work we can become resentful towards that person we are attempting to rescue.

My tendencies were the direct result of my unconscious reaction to my childhood trauma – growing up in a household with a BPD/alcoholic and enabling parent who I modelled my relationship style from. I carried the air of control - it was a facade/a mask - because I had none as a child. I was not authentically living my own life.

Yes, exactly!

My T keeps telling me that I am trying to do for others what was never done for me, but I keep picking out others it won't work on (for example, I am only a few weeks divorced from a bipolar w/ psychotic features, NPD, ASPD guy--18 years of trying to have a "meaningful relationship" with someone who CAN'T. Not even WON'T--just CAN'T. Geez, maybe next I should head down to a nursing home and find a guy who's had 7 or 8 strokes and try to have meaningful conversations with him, so we can both be frustrated out of our minds!).

My T keeps telling me I need to do these things for myself, not others (only). But honestly, I just don't know how! I know he's right, but I can't figure out how. It's like I have one foot nailed to the floor and I'm going around in a circle.

This may sound stupid, but does anyone know HOW one goes about accessing that thing Ablow is talking about? I know how to focus on it, but not how to feel it. T says just let it come--but it doesn't. I take time out every evening to sit down and either push myself to feel that which I am trying to distract myself from, or just let it come, or whatever, and it doesn't happen. I know something's happening, because a few months ago on my way to work I started crying and couldn't stop and wasn't sure why. Had to go home, because you can't just go around work crying. T said the barrier was coming down to my feelings that have been locked up since childhood, and that makes sense. But now that I know what was happening, it won't happen anymore. If I try to think about some of the really horrendous things that happened to me as a kid to prompt it, I just get mad. I can't summon up sympathy for the little kid who endured all that crap. I can summon up outrage, but not sadness, pain, fear--the things I know I should feel and probably do somewhere inside, but cannot find.

I had to be really conscious and simply step back and do some self talk “No clearmind, step back, this person is capable of looking after themselves. This is not my role”. It took a while to break the pattern. I firstly had to know why I did it. My self worth needed rebuilding.

My childhood dictated my actions as an adult. It’s recognizing that we are now adults with adult privileges. As a child I dare not say “No” otherwise I was hit – now there are no consequences accept on the occasion my guilt to contend with for not helping. Remind yourself that we no longer need to operate on childhood emotions. That being an adult means there are choices.

This goes for others too – allow them the choice to decide for themselves. Your value is not dependent on whether you fix – you have proven that – it hasn’t worked.

Emotional blocking is something I would do – I stopped dissociating when I healed from childhood. I wrote a bucket load – this connects the left and right side of the brain – kids from abusive homes can be very cerebral – thinkers not feelers. Its common! When you find yourself heading into your head – stop – and really ask yourself “How does it make me feel – in the heart and belly?” – start processing what emotions come up and write them down.

You need to get mad DA – get real angry – this is part of you healing from grief – feel – right now you are scared and don’t trust vulnerable emotions like anger and sadness – welcome to life! Trust that everyone gets angry – it’s OK – someone may have told its not.

Whats the worse that can happen if you get angry?

hit__

I cannot recommend this highly enough - The Self-Acceptance Project (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=196176.0) - some members really started to feel during this project.

  OMG is right. I read your statement somewhere that most people who had experienced abuse anything like you did were complete basketcases and you didn't know why you weren't. I didn't doubt you, but still, yikes! My mind can't even fathom what you went through well enough to properly get angry over it.

I can offer you some perspective on this, however:


My take on that is that you are protecting yourself from things you can't deal with. Right now you can't cope with the sadness this would bring up. If you feel angry, the anger protects you from the sadness. When you don't need that anymore, you will feel the sadness.

I'd recommend mindfulness: If you are feeling angry, then try to focus your attention on the anger, feeling it and experiencing it. Try to be curious about what this anger really is. (And don't be surprised if it goes away just as you are getting really interested in it.)

Hi DA

I have a thought or two that comes from my own experience of attempting to access emotions.

You said:


It seems to me that you're heading in exactly the right direction. Outrage is a very good start surely? And in fact you did say that you'd burst into tears on the way to work recently - so it seems to me that you're really not that far from accessing a lot of sadness too. But as Clearmind says don't be in any rush to get through the anger/outrage - whatever you want to call it. It's necessary too I'm sure. And I think a vast amount of anger is justified in your situation and needs to be felt.

The only other thing I'd say is something I always go on about (sorry!). I've found physical activities and therapies - like restorative yoga (it has to be the 'restorative' kind in my experience - very precise and slow) and cranio-sacral therapy - are great at helping to tap into deeply held and unexpressed emotion.

Wishing you well. WWT.

Hi doubleAries,

Reading your story, I feel anger that may be somewhat similar to what others are feeling as they read it!

Despite the frustration that you seem to feel as you work through this, I find if impressive to see how you are working through this.

For what it's worth... .   The severity of my experiences as a child were nothing compared to what you went through.  Yet it has still taken me time to work through it.  It has been a bit like an onion.  First there was a protective layer that seemed to keep me from even talking about it.  Then I would work through it and reach a plateau.  At one of these plateaus, I thought I had worked through it pretty well.  A few years later, I realized that I just had not been ready to dig deeper.  New emotions came up that I had not felt (or noticed) before.  Only then could I start to process those parts.

I told my T how frustrating it felt not to know how to address certain things.  She kept telling me that recognizing it was an important first step.  I told her that I found her answer frustrating too!  But sure enough, once I was able to peel back the things that apparently had to come before it, I would eventually reach what I was trying to get to.

It is still a process for me, one that I now hope I will continue for a lifetime.

Thanks for sharing the piece on enablers.  I found it very helpful.

 

Hi all

I guess I've been a bit of a fixer too, but mostly, any people who asked for my help always got served my boundaries to start with. I told them that if they asked for help and I could give it, I would give it, not at their whim or demand, and not if they weren't prepared to help themselves.

I also said that my help was not an eternal on tap supply, available whenever they snapped their fingers and they also were not to become dependent/reliant/expectant on it.

I would explain that I have a pretty high radar for being taken for granted, and as soon as that radar goes off, or they overstepped the mark, or tried to take more and more, the supply would cease forever.

As far as the BP in my life was involved, I tried to allow him to retain his own sense of independence as much as possible, yes I helped him consistently, but I was careful to not help too much, I have remained as distant as possible from his own dilemmas, because he needs to learn to deal with the consequences of his own choices in life.

To a degree he is independent, (stubbornly so), but in others, he is as dependent as a young child, such a 'catch 22' mix in there.

This has often made his life much worse, and still is, (and I have to hear about it!) but I just leave the solving/resolving of it up to him, as he wishes, but trying to retain my own boundaries at the same time.

The one area I failed in the most, was enabling his projections/rages/dysregulating, I guess I became a bit of a sponge, (instead of a mirror).

There is also the fact that abused women often blame themselves for the abuse inflicted on them, so this has definately been a factor in my relationship from the very start. I was manipulated into believing I deserved the way he treated me or talked to me, because I was too 'friendly' too popular, had too many responsibilities, had too many 'friends', or worked too much.

I also had built up guilt at failing myself, and becoming argumentative and hurtful at times. As we all know, the scales of our responses/reactions are nowhere like theirs, but they use any dirt on us as a tool to manipulate us and guilt trip us forever, they also use it as justifications for their ever consistent future attacks.

If they get us to react like they do, they win, even if we might only react 10% of the time exposed to their hate like this, and their efforts are 90%, they will use our 10% as fodder and justification for their future abuse, (to which they can then cry out and be the 'victim' and call us the abusers! or call us out for saying things that 'hurt them and make them feel bad'. (choke!)

I also failed from time to time, in retaining my own emotional equilibrium in response to his projecting/acting out/painting me or us black, and he successfully transferred or dumped all that onto me, and I soaked it up at just all the wrong times really. Sleep deprivation was his tool for transferring his crap onto me, or not giving me peace or respecting my rights or limits. If I said Stop, or 'I am not going to have this discussion any longer right now, as I do not want us upsetting ourselves more at this point', he would ignore me to the point of extreme frustration. If I carried out my rights to leave his rage/rants, I would be verbally abused and dumped anyway, (inevitably where he was heading things after his rants).

I understand all the tools used here, for validating, SET, not Jading etc, but when you are faced almost immediately with a snarling dog, none of those tools are going to work from the start. I refuse to validate someone who is ranting on in an extremely verbally abusive and hateful way, whether some of his/her feelings are valid and pertinent or not.

I often feel like my primary role in this relationship has been therapist. This is not me thinking I am a therapist, I just feel like one, and often every day at least.

Over the last 50 days or so, (saw him only twice in person), my contact has been limited to daily talks on the phone, which only go well on the days he has money, as he starts to run out, he begins to dysregulate more, as he is forced to spend more time at his parents, no money left to drive off and avoid them.

They supposedly now have been telling him to leave almost every day, (but he is still there, because the reality is, that he has no money and no job, to go elsewhere anyway). The whole situation is maddening really, and I hear about it every day, but the irony is for me, that when he lived here, his focus was the same, on what everyone else was doing, instead of himself.

His parents informed me how much he told them about living here, and I knew that was the case, even though BP professed to only talking to me about his problems, I knew he was denigrating me and this house and my family/friends behind my back. He was also painting things out to be quite different to the truth of the matter, twisting facts to make his stories make him look like the victim.

I knew better though.

Yet I was accused constantly of being a 'backstabber' and a troublemaker and not keeping our relationship 'private'.

How could someone who regularly stood out on the front lawn in front of the whole neighbourhood, or took his rage to my workplace, or any public place, call our relationship 'private'?

I shudder at the memories of the public humiliation sessions he inflicted on me during his time staying at my home, and his insistence on becoming enmeshed in 'helping' me at work.

As I said, if a  person is already raging almost immediately, (like my BP so often is) I am wasting my time trying to have a normal, logical conversation at that point it is already too late. I have witnessed this in my partner so much more often, that I often wondered why I even bothered to stick around hoping he might calm down, or I would say the right thing, or use the right tool and all would be fine again. It never was going to be.

Once in a while, the tools would work, but I found mostly that those tools only served to give him license to act like more of a jerk than he already is capable of.

It was doubly difficult to do, after I asked him to move out, and our relationship was reinstated as a Long Distance one for the past 15 months.

I have suffered a lot of internal conflict about whether or not I am doing the right thing, and the whole situation right now is only driving that home even more.

I am accused of never seeing BP, yet when I make plans to go spend time with him, I am fobbed off, he is miserable that he is at his parents, and at the general state of his affairs. He will work hard to convince me that he wants to see me, but both times over the last 50 days, have ended in assaults or property damages when I had to leave because he was being verbally abusive again.

Yet he wants to stay in touch on the phone every day, and hang on to me, and tell me he loves me, and just make general conversation about life in general. It is really frustrating to me, and I have tried to make him see several times how unfair this is to me.

He keeps telling me I will have to be patient, just like he has been, (allegedly waiting for me to have time to have a relationship and life with him for 3 years now).

Then he puts the hard word on me, about leaving my home and setting up a place with him, because now it is about time it is about him and I, not 'my family'.

But he has not done anything for the past 15 months about contributing to that 'place of our own' and privacy together. I keep being made to feel that the onus is on me to provide it.

Quite honestly, I am very reluctant to. He had the chance to stay on here, and resolve his differences with my boarders, but he chose not to, dismissing them and I as idiots.

Yet he blames me and them for his lot in life, and us not 'being together'. Funny, over the last 15 months of my input, I was under the belief I was in a relationship still and he certainly helped me believe that when it suited his purpose enough.

Sure, he has done some things to try and improve his own lot in life, but not seriously enough. He has used his toxic parents, as the excuse for not finding a job, and being able to leave there. Yet, for the past 15 months, he has received $240 a week unemployment, plus made often weekly extra money, (around average of $70 per week). Not to mention regular cash loans from such providers, with high interest repayments over a month.

He has had weekly assistance from me, and his parents, plus he has never had to pay board there, or pay for utilities, or anything. He lives there for free, and he lived here for free too. Sure, now and again, he might have contributed a substantial amount, but nothing consistent or reliable, and anything he did contribute would be taxed back by his running out of money again every week, so he would only end up getting back what he put in.

What to do?

I stress and obsess over this every day, because I just want some resolving, and to know where I am going, and some answers that make sense, but I never get them, there is always the same old crap, the same old excuses, then the inevitable dumping, denigrations, projecting, painting us black etc, weekly. I really want to end it, and move on with my life in a big way, but don't quite have the heart to do it just yet, strange, I should, after his assault and other damages lately.

It is maddening that he can not see me in person for so long, but still talk on the phone every day, and keep dangling me on this stick. I feel I am being lied to, whilst he tries to secure new involvements, and quite honestly, I want to move on and have a life myself, even if I am heartbroken, and not looking to date or become involved again.

DA - do you have any childhood pictures of yourself?  If you have any, put them into the fanciest most beautiful frames you can buy and keep them around to start getting in touch with that beautiful, sweet, adorable little person.  This is a suggestion from the book The Narcissistic Family in reconnecting with those lost feelings.

You DO matter doubleAries! It's sad that you had to experience such abuse as a child-that no one intervened on your behalf. It makes me feel so angry. I just want to say there is help out there and you deserve it to get it just as much as anyone else. As a human being, you have intrinsic value/worth. Everyone will need help at some point in their lives. I think that going to therapy is a really courageous act. I didn't realise it was at the time however when I look back, I realise that I was actually very brave... it felt scary but I still did it anyways. I didn't know whether it would work or not however I was willing to do the work. You have that willingness and bravery too so please give yourself credit for that. You're going to therapy, doing the work and you ARE worth it.

I had a lot of negative self-talk because I felt that I wasn't good enough... my father was always criticising me! It took me time to learn to apply positive self-talk to myself. It sounds cheesy however it does actually work! There are some threads in the workshop section of this website on it.

Another tip I read is to get index cards and write kind things on them and read them when you feel down. I used to do this and it was like having positivity & kindness at figure tips all the time. By "kind things", I mean writing affirming statements like "I am entitled to help just as much as anyone". "I am worthy". "I deserve help". "Seeking help is an act of bravery". "I am a lovable person". These are just some suggestions. It'll take a while for the messages on the index cards to seek into your subconscious however I would say give it a chance... just try it out and practice it.

I think that DBT is helpful too. I thought that DBT was a "soft" approach initially however that was because I was still being too hard on myself. I thought "oh well I need to get on with it and just move on" however I needed to give myself kindness. I didn't know HOW to be kind to myself-I literally had no idea whereas the DBT skills have taught me how to be kind to myself. It was a skill that I had to teach myself.

DBT actually talks about how anger is a secondary emotion and how there's primary emotions like fear, sadness etc underneath it. There's also a lovely bit in the emotional regulation section about how we need emotions for survival etc and that really helped me to learn to validate myself and my emotions. Here's a DBT skills handbook with all the DBT skills on it if you want more information on it: www.bipolarsjuk.se/pdf/Handbook%20in%20DBT%20Group.pdf

Thanks, all.

I guess what is mostly frustrating for me here is that I got a pretty good long ways on all of this on my own, without therapy, and I have felt angry about what all happened to me for a very long time--I seem to be stuck there. In my early 20's, I went to a counselor who insisted (without bothering to hear the extent of the abuse) that I needed to forgive my mother so I could have a loving relationship with her! I haven't spoken to my mom in 22 years and I have no plans of starting now. Through my brothers and their varied contact with her, I see that is the correct choice. We all went through absolute hell, but as the only other female in the family, I was singled out for extra special torment. Seeing emails she wrote that my brothers have forwarded to me, "mom" doesn't appear to have changed even a little bit.

I have made great progress consciously and intellectually. Not so great of progress unconsciously and emotionally.

I have a really good T now (for almost 2 years), and imagine my surprise and relief when I told him I was having a very difficult time forgiving my parents and he said "you don't have to. Why would you "forgive" someone for treating you like that?" We talked about that quite a bit, as well as the difference between acceptance and approval, and that "forgiveness" certainly is NOT the end all healing tool to reach inner peace.

Abuse is also a spectrum. And just because my abusive childhood was at an extreme end of the spectrum doesn't negate anyone else's level of abuse. In fact, I have come to see that in many ways the neglect I and my brothers endured was as damaging--maybe more damaging--than the over the top blatant abuse. The blatant abuse was shocking certainly, but became a distraction of sorts from the insidious neglect. My brothers and I actually looked forward to neglect--it meant we weren't "in trouble". We did NOT recognize that it also meant we weren't valued or cared about. Not being valued or cared about became the goal, the golden standard. This is pretty deeply ingrained (from the get go, really). It is now an unconscious pattern, habit, "norm". The access to changing it apparently is through the emotional realm--something I am not at all comfortable with. SIGH... . I'm still trying to THINK my way out of this--the only way I know how to approach things.

"... . enablers wouldn’t be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. They would have to focus on it, and therefore, feel it. And they will do almost anything to avoid that.”

OK... . Ablow makes it sound like if you just stop the distraction and focus on the internal psychological turmoil, the feelings about it come. I don't find this to be working for me. I must be doing something more, as he says, to avoid that, even though it seems I am trying to face it head on. But I can't figure out what (there's that word again--"figure out" instead of FEEL).

I'll check out these links provided and ponder all your words here. I'm having a hard time describing what the problem here is. If I could do that, it wouldn't be the "missing link" I'm in search of... .  

I know this really well.  Intellectualizing and thinking of the reasons is pretty familiar.  Knowing the why's for awhile seemed to help - then it didn't anymore.  I eventually had to deal with the emotions.  That took some time.

My father is bipolar and level of chaos/abuse was all over the board with his mental health- emotional, verbal and physical violence.  I thank god nothing sexual but the other stuff was enough.

I'd say I went through an extensive grief period in my late teens early twenties trying to make sense of it.  

One moment that was a real awakening was when my godmother and I were talking about it and she told me its okay to be hurt by it.  It's okay to feel it was wrong despite the reasons and whys.  And that it wasn't for me to fix.  I didn't have to make it better for anybody else but myself.

Weird thing now - my perspective on my father (and mother - they are still married) is different.  We still have a relationship which surprises me sometimes because for a time, like you mentioned, I had dreams of leaving and did leave.  It took quite a bit of work to get to a place where I wanted a relationship.  That's not for everyone though.

A lot of enabling I did/do is born out of not wanting to deal with or knowing how to deal with conflict.  I didn't learn about boundaries or assertiveness at home.  I had to learn about that.  Thinking and saying no and limits wasn't a bad thing.  This has helped quite a bit in curbing enabling.  

Giving myself permission to do the things I need has brought me a lot of acceptance and forgiveness in all this considering I didn't think I would be able to.  Go figure. :)

This is an eye opening thread to me, because my emotions often times seem buried, and my feelings are very important to me.  Then, sometimes they seem wide open, like I'm super emotional when I shouldn't be.

Anyway, this idea of breaking through to your emotional side reminded me of a strange series of events that took place when I was with uBPDx.  During the idealization phase when things were going really great, she'd treat me really kid-like.  It felt like we were 2 kids playing around.  But then, for some reason, one night I got seriously emotional about things that took place in my childhood.  I remember it so well.  I started bawling about getting picked on at school when I was a kid.  It felt good, cleansing, but I was like, WTF?  Why is this happening now?  It happened a few more times, again about really old stuff that was stuck deep down.

There was another time about 12 years ago that comes to mind, now that I think of it.  Again, weird circumstances, I struggle to remember exactly what triggered it.  Actually, now I remember:  a friend of mine was tetering on the brink, acting really weird.  So I let him stay with me for a few days and we had these really long talks, getting to the root of what was troubling him.  It got to the point where he started bawling.  Then, a day or two later, I started bawling.  Maybe it was because I could relate to his stress (we are both fatherless) and knew exactly what he was going through at that stage in his life, or at least pretty close - being in proximity to that, to someone else, with similar pain.  And, while I think of it, it happened to a couple of other people who were also there or close to the situation.  It was really strange.  We would just talk and talk and talk, asking pinpoint questions, getting deeper and deeper.  Then boom, bawling.  It was like this strange power had come over us.

I'm sorry, I wish I could give some helpful advice or something like that, but reading this just brought all this back to me, thought I would share.

thanks yet again.

BOUNDARIES... . whew! Now THERE'S another topic! My T says this is my main issue. And like you, David D, I can't access my feelings at all, and then I'm waaaayyy to open (frequently with the very people I shouldn't be open at all with!)

GM, my exH is bipolar (with paranoid delusions, NPD and ASPD)--I know what that world is like! We've only been divorced for a few weeks, after 18 years together. We still work together and (thanks to counseling--believe it or not, he goes too) that's not too bad at all. Until the next "episode" that is... . I've been on him for years about taking responsibility for his own mental health issues instead of dumping it all on me---just learning in the past year that he CAN'T.

My mom? Doubtful we will ever create anything resembling a respectful "relationship". We never had one to begin with. My mom has never ever told me she loves me. Ever. She HAS told me repeatedly that she hates me, wishes I was never born, wishes I was dead, etc, etc, etc. Why? Because it's true--that's how she feels about me. I'm the no-good child. I struggle with whether it's because I'm BAD, but I know I've been hearing it since I could remember (at least age 2--how BAD could a 2 year old actually be?). Since I've seen nothing over the years to indicate any change in her at all, it isn't a matter of "learning how to use SET tools with her" or something--she's a dangerous person, and I would be foolish to interact with her. When I got old enough she couldn't just punch me in the mouth, her creativity in sadism really bloomed. I spent countless hours undoing damage, defending myself, and explaining. Yes, some JADE, but much more than that--sometimes explaining to police that I did not do what she called them and said I did, or explaining to employers that no, I wasn't mentally ill, that was just my mom projecting and gloating and cackling about the results (which always sounded crazier than her). No--there's no going back there. That's a bridge better left burned. Now, if I can just stop recreating it... .

I'm tired of "fixing", I'm tired of no boundaries, I'm tired of hateful self talk, I'm tired of trying to think my way out of my feelings. I just don't know how to do it differently or I would.

Forgiveness... . I sometimes view it as simply accepting what happened and moving on and forward with my life.

DA, it sounds like you have very good reasons to continue to avoid all future contact with your mother, even if you do forgive her for what she did in the past.

Good luck moving through this--I'll just say that for completely different reasons a completely different (and non-abusive) FOO, I know not being able to find my own feelings all too well. And don't know that I'm doing too good a job figuring out how to improve on that count.

DoubleAries,

I just have to say that you are amazing.  Coming through what you have, and working on yourself - I am so admiring of your attitude and what you have accomplished. The comment about enablers wanting to avoid their own stuff hit home for me.  My needs have been so repressed that I have trouble finding them at all, and it's much easier to just focus on my partner's, or family member's needs, since they are right out there in front and easily recognizable. 

I resonate very much with your question of "how?" when it comes to feeling feelings, and doing things differently.  I actually posed that same question to my T: "How can I learn to do something that I've never known or experienced?"  and  her reply was: "Just like you learn anything else, read, trial and error, coming here to therapy, etc."  Huh!  I guess that kind of makes sense, I mean how else will we learn except by trying and practicing another way? It seemed too practical a response for an issue so deeply felt, and it has been a challenge for me, but with baby steps and practice, I do see a change, and more importantly, Ifeel better.

You are a wonderful model for us here taking inventory, thank you for sharing your struggles, it helps all of us, too. 

heart

I just needed to second that DA.  I bought the book, almost wished I hadn't. It is like having the wind knocked out of me reading about Cynthia. Because I fear I was much like her, more than I can admit to myself at this point. How did I let myself get there? Why did I allow myself to become that person. I think I was manipulated and controlled into it to a large degree but where was my thinking at? This is one of the reasons I find it hard to go back. To see where I was and not to have had the tools back then to comprehend what was happening. It makes me wonder how I could ever have been so stupid. And now this shame for having been that person and a need to figure out how I can forgive myself. Cumulus.

DA I think part if the reason I tried thinking my way around all of it was a way to find acceptance.  I thought it it had to look a certain way.  It doesnt.

I've noticed that it isn't some grand gesture.  For me it became more about permission to allow myself to acknowledge that there were awful things - like my dad threatening to run into a boulevard of oncoming traffic - along with the other parts like a strong support system other places - siblings, cousins, friends, family etc.  Forgiveness was more just acceptance - good, bad, and ugly - that I can't change the past. And I can't make it better.  That was it.

Im not advocating you have any relationship with a person you don't want to at all.  Some things - the only forgiveness is to leave that person alone.    As for feeling these things rather than thinking about them - with the old wounds I got to a point where I was all "felt out".  There wasn't a whole lot to feel left.  I became indifferent to those old memories after rehashing them for so long - like an old book I had read a hundred times there wasn't anything new left to find.

I do know that sometimes my reaction time to events emotionally is on a lag.  So like when I got together with my ex events that would normally register immediately with someone didn't register with me.  I was very used to wild and erratic - like the movie King of California style - I didn't notice until things become intolerable or cross major boundaries.  Then my intial emotion is anger which I have to walk myself through so I don't do something stupid.

But it still takes me quite a bit to be ruffled or emotionally upset.  I guess I prefer to be happy, it feels better. 

Boundaries and defining normal was/is the biggest hurdle.  They help me to "recognize" when things aren't okay. 

Many points made here have given me pause... .

First of all I have to say doubleAries, I can not imagine. :'( :'( I m pretty good at being strong and in control of my emotions but had misty eyes reading some of your account. Im however amazed also how you have been able to process things as you have. It goes to show your strength and will to rise above it.  |iiii

I had to think a bit about in another conversation on this board where childhood Schemas were discussed of how we are essentially 'programmed' in our formative years and how it creates the blueprint of our future in how we react and also the environments we then tend to gravitate towards. It was like this thread, an aha moment for me. When I did some reflecting on it, it made perfect sense. My childhood was not all roses but there were of course disfunctions and I now understand much about the 'path' so to speak that led me to end up with a BPD.

I am also starting to see so much why and how I have become a co-dependent in a sense to the BPD. Or in other words, I ask myself, why the heck did I need to walk that journey and what am I to gain from it. I am a person that I could never have imagined a few years ago. Almost like the snake handler that is bitten by the snake on purpose. With each bite he dies a little and yet becomes stronger. It obviously did something to and for me in the bigger scheme of things and I m still processing it.

Along those lines, I have read some pretty in depth stuff over the last few years in trying to understand my exBPD, myself and how to best be a parent to my children. But on the other side of the coin, Some of the simplest and strait forward things made the most sense and taught me the most.

'As a man thinketh' and 'The science of getting rich'  were instrumental in getting the 'noise' in my head (negative self talk ruminating etc) to lesson. Basically I m learning what I give life in my head, and that includes space to my exBPD, the more of a presence those things will have in my life.

Im starting to understand better that the things I give passion and thoughts the most, become the most plentiful.

Dont know if this makes any sense to anyone. This thread has helped to solidify that a bit for me

Thank You all!

A great big thanks to everyone participating in this thread. All of you have given me lots to think about (if not feel  ) and research.

cumulus, my stomach hurt all the way through that book. Still does. The dynamics of the Anthony family aren't all that similar to my immediate FOO, except for the emotional oxygen being sucked out of the universe by my mom (although my paternal grandmother came to mind often while I was reading--she participated in turning one of my uncles into a nonfunctional alcoholic who couldn't leave home or get a job and was mean as they come, while she defended him relentlessly to nearly delusional lengths). But an important thing I took away from the book is that not having good boundaries (and the solid reasonable values behind those boundaries) isn't just about us getting walked on. It's about us walking on others too. Pushing ourselves on others, trying to make others conform their behavior to helping us distract ourselves from our fears and internal turmoil. Ablow pointed out a couple of times that Cindy Anthony acted as she did because she didn't/doesn't have boundaries. And he's correct.

I want to thank all of you for your supportive words. Sometimes I forget that actually, I've come pretty far (especially on my own!) and really pulled myself up by the bootstraps. I only see how far I have to go, and feel like a writhing mass of protoplasm or something.

But I know I have a long way to go emotionally too. One "event" that comes to mind was many years ago, a friend asking me some details about one of my childhood horror stories. She looked skeptical as I was telling her. I wasn't sure why. Later, she began sort of avoiding me, and finally I asked her why, what had I done wrong or offensive. She finally told me that I was a liar, and she didn't want to hang around with liars. I was pretty stunned--what had I lied about? She told me she didn't believe my story about what happened to me as a kid (and this was only what we kids in my family called a "medium velocity" story--there were worse--a LOT worse--things that happened) and that she couldn't figure out why I would make up such weird things. It took maybe another 6 months to get more info, and from another friend we had in mutual--that she believed anyone who had endured such a thing would be sobbing when they told it, and I was just too "matter of fact" and nonchalant about it, thereby making it unbelievable.

This was the first time I'd gotten such a clear outside view about my own emotional detachment. I've pondered it a lot ever since. If I ran into her all these years later and told the same story--this time with emotion--she'd likely just think I was a sociopath or something. My T also asked me once "and how do you feel now about that happening to you?" and I launched into a rant about how my moms behavior was outrageous, etc. He said "yeah, I know--so how do you feel about it? How did you feel about it at the time it happened?" All I could come up with was "angry". When in reality, I was probably terrified, hurt, alone, powerless, many other things, but I don't want to lie and say I remember emotions that I don't.

I know some people repress memories. I don't have repressed memories. Just repressed emotions. I remember what happened. But I don't remember how it felt. I remember crying about some things (not about others--I'd have gotten the tar beat out of me for crying) but not how I actually felt. I have empathy for others and what they've been through. I guess I don't for myself. And I guess that probably leads to expecting others to fill that emptiness inside for me. Which is pretty rude and co-dependent.

It's not so hard to imagine if you weren't allowed to have them, or scared of the consequences of having them, or punished when you had them, why it might be difficult now to tap into them. 

You are courageous.

I have to though. Not just because "it's good to have emotions". It's effecting me physically. I have myofacial trigger points all over my back and neck from being so tense (and not even noticing because it's "regular/normal". That kind of tenseness has caused me adrenal problems, and also causes digestion problems (sympathetic and parasympathetic response systems--relaxation [or parasympathetic nerve response] is when digestion happens properly--fight or flight mode [or sympathetic nerve response] doesn't allow proper digestion. It's not good to be hyper-vigilant all the time!)

I am always surprised how utterly physical emotions are! My T and even my medical doctor have both asked me "so what did you do with those angry or other feelings when you were a kid?" Well, I stuffed them. I swallowed them whole. Next obvious question--"OK, so where did they go?" (as if they are physical, which they do seem to be!) Um, I guess into my gut. And muscles. And the weight of the world on my shoulders (upper neck and back pain gets so bad at times my neck "freezes" up and I can't move it. That's been going on since I was a kid). I'm 48 years old now. That stuff is taking a very physical toll on me now. Just because I "escaped" from my mom, doesn't mean I escaped from myself and my own patterns, and the tendency to gravitate to situations and relationships where I can use my extreme coping skills! It's hard to combat the negative self talk when I SEE myself falling into the same hole, and can't seem to stop it from happening. That only adds to the internal psychological turmoil that I then start seeking to avoid (since I can't figure it out/think my way through it).

T keeps telling me it's OK to do for others what was never done for me, but that I have to be able to do this for myself as well. Try as I might, I don't really understand what he's talking about.

When I was about 11 or 12 years old, all my female friends at school were starting their menstrual cycles. I intuitively knew this was inherently dangerous at my house. My mom was extremely threatened by ANY other women (and even girls to a lesser degree). I do remember being very stressed out about this for many reasons, including the simple fact of not being able to talk to her about it--menstrual cycles are shameful, after all. But mostly just knowing deep inside that her hatred for me was going to escalate severely. Instead of starting menstrual cycles (which all you women know are certainly effected by physical/psychological stress), I developed OCD instead, which I was careful to tell NO ONE about--not even my trusted older brother. It was horrible. I had to count every single footstep I took, and in very specific patterns. If I didn't do it right, I had to go back to wherever I started from and start over. I did not believe that something bad would happen if I didn't do these things. In fact, I argued with myself nonstop about it, until I was in tears nearly every day. I KNEW it was nonsensical, yet I couldn't stop (it wouldn't be a compulsion if you didn't HAVE to do it). I couldn't explain it to anyone, because I knew they would say what I had already said to myself a zillion times--just stop doing it. AND I COULDN'T. And I had to deal with it by myself. Everything had to be symmetrical--if I brushed my right hand against my leg, I had to do the same thing with my left hand. I had to start all "footstep patterns" with my left foot and take 4 steps within each sidewalk section, and count them in sets of 4's. Even if it meant walking pretty funny. And I couldn't let anyone see me doing this, because they would surely ask me why I was doing it. AND I DIDN'T KNOW.

This was a torture worse than any my mother could dream up. I thought I was crazy. But my logical processes were working fine. I suppose compulsions stem out of the emotional realm--they sure caused a lot of anguish!

I no longer count my footsteps, and haven't for years. I got through it alone. But sometimes the patterns it created still appear--I catch myself counting how many times I cut the carrot or potato when I'm cooking. But I can stop. It's not a compulsion anymore, it's a residual pattern. Weird... .

I see it as cutting yourself some slack, like you do for others.

"I have empathy for others and what they've been through. I guess I don't for myself. And I guess that probably leads to expecting others to fill that emptiness inside for me. Which is pretty rude and co-dependent."

We were made for attachment as human beings, our attachers are a bit sque'd but can be realigned.  You have been through so much and you took care of yourself, all by yourself.  You didn't do such a bad job of surviving.  Give yourself some credit.  You could of gone done a completely different road, took a lot of strength and courage to get to where you are now.  You had to work through stuff most kids never had to contend with in their families.  Time to do a little idealizing and putting that little girl on a pedastal for doing what she could to make it through.

DA, it is really encouraging to hear you describe the ways that you are high functioning or coping with all the crap you were dealt. Because that is not the same as being unscathed.

Is believing that you weren't really damaged another one of those coping mechanisms that isn't serving you as well now as it did in the past?

  Everybody,

I too, have come from an abusive family, like many of us on this board. Mine wasn't as severe as some, like yours, DoubleAries, and some of the other posters in this thread.

I have disagree with the author of the book where the quotes state that an enabler or codependent person wants to focus on another person's to avoid focusing on his/her own issues. I didn't want to. No way. It was the lonely child in me being driven to because of my fear of losing a relationship if I didn't. In my family I was taught to focus on the other person's issues, such as "walking on eggshells" around my father.

All of this emotional work is fairly new to me. I started it about 1&1/2 years ago, with just getting in touch with my feeling. Only in the last 3 or 4 months have I really started to probe my inner mind through inner-child and similar work.

About getting in touch with your feelings, I used to have that problem. I learned to not express them when I was growing up, so I've had to learn how to feel them and work with them. I'm at the working with them stage now. I've read that helping children learn to identify what they are feeling and how to handle them is an important part of parenting. I certainly wasn't taught that.

So, I'm working on that now, as well as self-love, acceptance, and care.

What I found helped me get started with accessing my feelings (and I've read posts from others in the past that similar methods helped them) is to do something to amplify your feelings so that you can access them better. Later, it will get a lot easier. For me, it was screaming in the car (parked) or in my apartment when I got upset, usually because of something my BPD exw did (in my apartment, I had to start screaming into my pillow because my cats would start pawing at me, and doing other things to try to soothe me  :) ).

At first, I was just able to feel that I was very angry, but it didn't take long to start being able to figure out what was upsetting me and more details about the emotion, such as fear, mental pain/abuse, etc.

Congratulations, DA on your courage to change!

AnotherPheonix  |iiii 

DoubleAries,


What do you get mad and outraged about?

AnotherPheonix  |iiii 

I need to correct this statement. I'm much better at accessing my feelings, but I still have to work on/at it.

AnotherPheonix

You are not alone! We are here to support you and help you. You matter. You are loved. You are very special and wonderful!



From your posts, I can tell that you have so much grit, determination, and courage, and you have an amazing amount compassion and caring for others.



I've read that codependents/lonely children give to their BPD/NPD partners what they would like to receive. What did you try to give your partner? How can you give that to yourself?

I only decided to answer that question for myself last week (my emotional self is with yours in the intensive care unit). I gave my wife unconditional love, compassion, and understanding. In my next meditation session I told myself that I loved myself unconditionally, both verbally and emotionally--whoa--I felt my emotional supply go up a couple of levels. I've told myself that I love myself in the past, but I'm not sure I sent the unconditional part of the message so clearly. I've also been working on self-compassion and understanding, which has also helped my emotional supply. I had been drained for a couple of years.

AnotherPheonix  |iiii Lots of   and 

  How are you doing, DoubleAries?

I've read several of your posts on your background, and you haven't just overcome: You've done so much. Wow!

I hope you don't mind lots of hugs and compassion being sent your way.

 

AnotherPheonix  |iiii

Thanks, AnotherPhoenix.

To all, I think I'm making some really good progress. I had a long session with my T yesterday and yet another of my half-baked theories was thrown out the window. Earlier in this thread, I threw in the sort of addendum story about OCD. It's always felt kind of like "on top of everything else... . " but I now recognize it as central to my coping methods. When things reached the tipping point emotionally for me, I began to exhibit OCD symptoms that were intensely excruciating--worse than anything else I had ever had to deal with. Because THIS is where I could allow myself to experience the emotions that were forbidden elsewhere. It was also secret.

After almost 2 years of counseling (with a T who specializes in Personality Disorders and the families of those with PD's), my T laid it out for me yesterday. He said "I've watched you closely for 2 years now, and spoken with others more specialized than myself in some of these things. While I've seen traces of many different things in you--like PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, and codependency--you lack the required criteria of any of these that is the beginning of making them diagnosable. I think we are finally reaching the crux of my original question to you of 'how did you deal with all of this?' Because there are many methods used by family members of the personality disordered to cope with the dysfunction, but your situation was extreme by any standard, and your coping method would have to have met that challenge. Your descriptions of OCD are indeed OCD behaviors, but once again, do not meet the required criteria that would make it diagnosable. The OCD behaviors were simply your way of seeking control in a situation you had no control over, of wrapping up tightly and logically that which was not bearable--your emotions surrounding the undeniable fact that your own mother hated you, and your father used you for narcissistic supply--and at the same time, allowing some of the emotions exposure, but 'hidden' as agony and distress at the OCD behaviors themselves."

:light:

All this time, I myself have read about these things (PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, etc, etc) and saw pretty much the same thing. But I certainly believed that if there was anything I could be "diagnosed" as, it would be OCD (conveniently not addressing the fact that I don't exhibit those symptoms now, and you don't just magically "overcome" OCD or any other disorder). And the reason I thought this was not based on the criteria list (because most of those didn't apply) but on the intensity of my anguish over the behaviors.

This makes sense to me now. There were no obsessions (a main component of OCD) and only one of the list of compulsions really stood out (counting--but not the superstition around "lucky" or "unlucky" numbers). 1 (or 2) from the criteria list does not make a diagnosis. But I can tell you--the overwhelming distress I felt was horrific.

Where a kid of 10 or 11 came up with this as a coping method (I never even heard the term OCD until I was in my 20's), I do not know. What I do know now though, is that--again--I don't have repressed memories. I have repressed emotions. I have struggled to access the emotions surrounding those memories (some of which are pretty awful and would seem to lend themselves to easy access of the emotions). But when I think of my bout with OCD, the emotions are RIGHT THERE. No getting around them, no evading them. I think I finally have the answer to "so where did all those emotions from a truly horrible childhood go?" They got wrapped up into a very symmetrical, organized, thoroughly counted package  

Where it all goes from here--what I now do with this information--is a different chapter I suppose. My T has been bugging me for a very long time to write a book about my childhood. I haven't been able to because it seems so fragmented (even if vivid). I also know that at least one of my brothers would go berserk if I wrote a book airing what to him are "family secrets"--and he's diagnosed ASPD... . he wouldn't just verbalize his anger. But who knows? Maybe I'll do it anyway. Can't imagine who would want to read something like that. 

Wow!  That is a huge insight!  Using OCD techniques to survive.  Very interesting, a child attempting to have control over something to deal with the emotions and the abuse.  And it kept you from going down a more disordered path.  Wow!

Last weekend I had this intense desire to watch the movie Aliens 2 with Sigorney Weaver.  I search it out on comcast, agree to pay the $2.99.  For some reason, I wanted to see a woman protecting a little girl against really bad monsters.  Sort of reminds me of now, Big Rose Tiger helping little Rose Tiger escape from the dark place.  Sigorney kicks alien butt. You might enjoy watching this sometime.

I think there are quite a few folks that would benefit from your book, it's not so much about the bad stuff, it's feeling so alone, an outsider to the world.  As if you are the only person that had a rough time and then they read your book and feel not so alone and hopeful that things can get better.  Your bro doesn't need to know about it, there are lots of books in the world and you can use a pen name.  :)

I'm excited.

I wrote 3 paragraphs on the book a few weeks ago and then got completely and utterly stuck. This realization changes things completely for me. I have finally found the "door" I've been looking for, the access to inside myself. And I wrote 12 pages in one day on the book.

DA I haven't posted in a long time. Your story touched me in the fact I too went through some severe abuse as a child. I thought I was puttering along and had dealt with the issues until I met another of my siblings and found out not even my father loved me. I was the black sheep the bad child.

What made me bad was I spoke the truth. They (my dis-functioning family) didn't like the truth. My mother became jealous if me around the 6th grade and though the abuse was bad before it became worse after. My father was a very ill man, bipolar with other mental issues, and a child molestor. My step father walked around with blinders on and my step mother did the same.

I am angry that they justify my mother beating me so badly it looked like she broke my cheek bone, jaw, and ribs for taking a diet pill. I literally can't remember my mother EVER being truely nice to me unless there was an ulterior motive. Like someone calling and turning her in for abuse or spending our survivor benefits on drugs and such.

To me it seemed I was the reason for all her failures. I was an ill child and had to have major surgery at the age of 4 1/2, and for some reason I became the child they didn't like. As a matter of fact there are only two pictures of me when I was young. There are no baby pictures of me. There are so many more things including some quite recently. Right, wrong or indifferent I was never defended. I was bad regardless of the what happened. I didn't even have to be in the same room and some how it was my fault.

I have found a wonderful man. I was single for a little over a year before I met him. In March we went and met my family and he got to see the dysfunction. I got to see the dynamics and how I responded. He advices me to cut ties to them and let them go.

For some reason this visit has opened up old wounds. I realized I am alone in the family fact. I realized if I died tomorrow the only thing my mother and my sister would do is play the part. It would garner them sympathy. If I didn't call them they wouldn't know if I was alive or dead. To be honest they don't care unless they need something from me.

I don't know who I'm enabling because I do tend to be completely honest with people. I did enable my ex and should have told him to piss off the first time he screwed up. I don't understand how normal relationships are suppose to work. I try like hell and have been told I try to hard. How is it after all the therapy I had an am basically back to square one? My personal growth has actually reversed. I am back to feeling like a failure and a worthless human being. Sorry I didn't mean to hijack this thread, just some thoughts I'm having.

Hi Glad to be away, and welcome back.

I don't at all consider this to be a "hijacking" of the thread--in fact, if you read through the rest of it, you'll see it kind of morphed into exactly what you are talking about.

I do understand what you are talking about. My family's dynamics are beyond bizarre. There was no "normalizing" any of it, because it was just too weird and violent for that. A question my T has asked me over and over is "how did you get through this? What coping mechanisms did you use?" and I kept saying "I don't know" which doesn't make sense at all. Pretty important events to not know how I dealt with them.

I came home from school once and put my school books in my room and saw that there was a very large butcher knife sticking out of my pillow. I stood there for some time, trying to decide if my mom or my younger brother did this. To this day, I don't really know (it would have been "defiant and selfish" for me to ask), but I finally decided it must have been my younger brother--my mom wasn't quite that "subtle".

Even though everyone in my family was very well aware that our mom had some pretty serious issues with feeling threatened by ALL other women, they still like to pretend (and expect me to as well) that the reason I was singled out for extra abuse was because I was defiant and "strong willed". 

While I knew my mom was stark raving mad, I was much more swayed by the rest of my family's opinions. That was what caused me self doubt.

The coping methods we develop to deal with the dysfunction in our families becomes deeply ingrained--automatic. We don't even think about it anymore, we just do it, even though the situations we are in now as adults don't call for these kind of coping methods.

Hi DoubleAries,

As a side note, I found what you learned about your childhood OCD behaviors to be really interesting.

There was a period (I don't remember quite how old I was) when I felt that if I did certain things with one hand (or one side of my body), then I had to do the same with the other to keep it symmetrical.  There was a particular pattern of taps that I would sometimes tap, say, with both hands.  But the pattern was asymmetrical.  So then I had to repeat it starting with the other hand to get the symmetry back.  To this day, I still remember the pattern, and at times I find myself doing it almost unconsciously as a way to help relieve stress.  During the period as a kid, I also remember feeling the need to smell my hands after washing them in a public restroom, especially if I felt the towels there weren't the cleanest.

Then at some point, those behaviors went away.  I never really thought about it before, but perhaps mine was also a sort of coping mechanism.

Hi zaqsert

OCD is an anxiety disorder. While true OCD (meeting the DSM requirements) is believed to be both biochemical and psychological (how could it not be both? When our minds and bodies are separate, that's called "dead", OCD behaviors (not diagnosable) are definitely thought to be coping mechanisms for anxiety, and often (but maybe not always) the type of anxiety that involves loss of control and the attempt to regain it.

In my newest round of research, I seem to be finding that OCD behaviors (versus diagnosable OCD) almost always involve counting and symmetry (very much less so the obsessions).

It's weird, because I've always known the OCD behaviors fit into this puzzle somehow, but just not how. Now in my case, it seems to be "the key". A lot of things are falling into place for me.

My T and I have gone around and around about my mom. There is only one "diagnosis" that fits--and it fits so perfectly it's scary (meets all 10 of the 9 required criteria  ). Problem is, that diagnosis "no longer exists". In the DSM3, there was a listing for Sadistic Personality Disorder (my mom fits Millon's Sadist PD with borderline features). It is still viewable on Wikipedia, but was taken out of the DSM for various reasons, mostly political.

As I have recounted before (via my T and my own experience), my childhood was extreme by any standard (guess you'll all have to wait for the gruesome book). My T has done a lot of research, and says true sadists are extremely rare, and that of the case studies he could find, more than 95% of those were men. Female--and mother--sadists are really, really, really rare. And of the case studies he could find, the no-good child of that mother was, in each case, a multiple personality disorder, and any other children of the sadist mother also had very extreme issues.

This of course causes me to be filled with self doubt (like so many things do), until I read that required criteria list for SPD again. I made up a little "test" of sorts to make sure I'm not actually a histrionic PD   just making crap up. I sent my older brother (who always thought I was just taking it all too hard, even though yes it was CRAZY growing up like we did) a list of various anonymous (unlabeled)PD symptoms, scattering the SPD symptoms in there, and asked him to put a red X next to the ones he thought pertained to our mother and email it back. I did the same thing with my youngest brother (but not our ASPD brother--better to steer clear of him  ). I expected similarities between our choices, but  didn't expect that all 3 of us would pick EXACTLY the same symptoms, without exception. Which is what happened. And each of us picked ALL of the SPD symptoms, and some of the BPD symptoms. The same exact ones.

In any case, my T says this is a less than once in a career opportunity for him too, and he really wants to know how I made it through this without becoming Multiple PD. I keep insisting "just lucky", which he's not accepting as an answer. And this is how he has finally convinced me that my story needs to be told and published. I'm 20 pages into it now. And every evening that I work on it a little (I couldn't do it chronologically, so I decided to just make "categories", my neck and upper back hurt so bad it feels like the muscles are being shredded by razors. And my stomach hurts so bad I have to take peppermint capsules to keep from throwing up.

AND I actually feel some emotions while writing some of the "incidents" out!

DoubleArias

Please continue with the book because I would love to read it. Just with what you have posted here you have shown a resiliance to the adversities you encountered in your formative years. You also prove that there is some choice in a way with how one develops coming from that environment. Reason I say that is that so many even professionals give some an automatic 'out' for unacceptable behaviour and conduct because they were a product of their environment. Which yes I agree to some degree but I too had a few pretty drastic things to deal with as a kid but I have no need to, as my exBPD does, hurt other people because I was hurt.

Also thanks for mentioning the book. I did a bit of research on the reviews online and because of the bad reviews rented it from the library. I am half way through and it gave me a bit of a deep in the gut sick feeling at times and mainly because I see the exact description of what shaped my ex. Including her inability to sever ties with her mother and she continues to allow her controlling mother to suck the life out of her. She has 6 siblings, none of whom are even remotely functioning on a socailly 'normal' level. I see so many glaring examples including the time I tried to talk to her mother about her (my ex) when i was still pretty niave. Before I had the whole sentence out she interuppted me and started to complain how her HER life was. Sounded so like Cindy Anthony

I love the discussion on OCD here as well. I have a few habits also that I now recognize. Tapping symetrical and patterns,... . a certain amount of steps in a certain distance, of course equal amount of steps with my right foot as the left. Most of those things have (had) completely gone away until I met my exBPD and then I remembered them again. I must be in a sense repeating childhood Schemas and needed a trigger (thus my ex) to re-live it... .

Starting to feel... .  be real gentle with yourself.  It's rough to start feeling the repressed emotions but they don't last forever, I promise.  Good on you for writing so much!  I suppose OCD is a way to feel some control in an out of control world, I'm starting to understand the hoarding my dad does and looking for evidence of it in some of my coping mechs... .

Rose Tiger -- yeah, I guess hoarding is an OCD thing too. I have slight traces of that--no major hoarding of crap, but like keeping the yogurt container because it might come in handy for something. When really I don't need or want it! I bought myself some really pretty dishes, but find myself eating instead out of the saved plastic containers. Have to "save" the good dishes for company (that doesn't come).

I'm beginning to worry a bit about the emotions. Am I just torturing myself for no good reason? Is there really any benefit to experiencing things from the past? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel, or am I just wallowing in things better left buried? If there is value in proceeding, and battling nausea and razor shredded muscles, then OK--I can hack it. But if it's all just self torture, to no real end... . (ah, the self doubt creeps in again)

slimmiller -- yes, the book continues on. I never looked at the reviews for the Ablow book, I just grabbed it. I find the Anthony family saga intriguing because it has similarities to my own family. But if the book has bad reviews, I'm not surprised. It's gut wrenching stuff, and many people find that "distasteful". I haven't forgotten the lashing that Joan Crawford's daughter received for her book "Mommy Dearest". You don't poke a hole in the holy shroud of idealized motherhood without some pretty serious backdraft.

I agree that there must be some choice in coping methods--all be it that the choices of small children are rather limited. And I certainly don't claim that just because I'm not a multiple personality, that I am unscathed. Far from it. When I left home (kicked out at 15) I was a real mess. It has taken me many years to become "just" codependent, insecure, and neurotic  lol

But I do agree--I didn't become like my mother either. I didn't become a sadistic witch with a need to lash out at others. I'm sure I've hurt people in my life, but not with a belt or board or fist. Not in an out of control rage. And certainly not for "pleasure". What was done to me is not an excuse.

I have figured out over the years that our childhood coping methods--refined and upgraded--draw us to and draw to us the kind of situations and relationships where we can utilize our "skills". These coping methods have become automatic (subconscious) through repeated practice. We don't think about them anymore. We just do them. Then don't understand why we are involved in what we are involved in. Why would I marry--and stay with for 18 years--a paranoid delusional person, who told me from the outset that he was diagnosed with schizophrenia? gee, I don't know... . but hey! if I could "help" him and "fix" him, then he'd be eternally grateful and like or perhaps even love me, right? Plus, as a bonus, I could use my extreme coping methods to cope!

I do believe that one of the things that made a big difference for me (as an adult) was cutting off contact with my mother 22 years ago. Too bad I didn't do the same with my father... .

Fellow Multiple-Aries: I often comforted myself with a thought, that I was not made to be multiple-aries without reason. Universe gave us burden, but it gave us tools and strength to cope with it too 

I was not as horribly abused as you were, I was just neglected. My mother has never shown anything that even remotely can be described as "love" to me, and yet, I have  a sister who has very different picture of our childhood. She was her favorite. I grew up with deep feeling of being in mercy of others, like... . I was fed and given clothes because it was my mothers responsibility, but thats it. I was not wanted anywhere, I was a burden and I was just barely tolerated in this world. I still often find myself feeling that me even living in this world must be some kind of accident, and I'm sure I will always have those feelings in certain situations. It took me long time and hundreds pages of journaling to even find that feeling. Our shame and pain is deeply buried.

For my healing it was necessary to cut all ties to my mother. I have nothing to do with her, and I will never have. Period. I don't care if she is my mother, she gave me birth and thats it. I am not going to feel myself obliged about it to her somehow.

I cannot suggest you to do the same, most people think doing something like that is cold and heartless. You do as you feel right inside of you. I never felt I did something wrong when I cut all contact to my mother. It had to be done.

I have always been trapped to my intellectual center too, and I could try to understand things so much that my brains literally hurt. And I have a one track mind, so when I was determined to understand something, I could not think anything else. I was obsessed to find out the "truth". Getting in touch with my emotional center was crucial moment for my healing. Too bad I have no idea how I did it! I think I just asked my Higher Power to deal with my pain. And so it came out. Of course I had to do the work, but I think my trust that there is a Higher Power (whatever it is), that will guide me if I just ask, gave me the courage to let it all loose and out in the open. I know how frightening it is. But I did not want to continue my life as it was and live with that pain anymore, and the thought of nothing changing in my life and me keeping circling with same issues was even more frightrening. I was ready to do the work. You will be too when time is right.

The thing is, when you have once had the experience of letting the present pain out and living through what ever it gives you, and noticing that nothing bad happened, infact, you feel much better than before, the fear begins to go away and next time is easier. I have a feeling you are dancing around the pain and not letting it touch you. It is your Ego protecting you. It is it's job. Tell it it is OK to give some slack and see what happens.

Double Aries - Yes, yes and yes.  If you don't allow yourself to get in touch with feelings, you'll never feel the good ones!  My family is littered with auto immune diseases, rheumatoid arthitis, hashimoto's thyroid, endometriosis, all diseases where the body attacks it's self.  All from surpressing those feelings and hating ourselves at the core.  I got the endo, such a pain to deal with, had surgery, went organic in diet and much better now.  Those feelings are going to make themselves known somehow.  It's like peeling an onion to work through all the defenses.  Inner child will open up a tad to see how unconditionally loving you will be, how accepting.  When she feels safe, she'll let you into the deep parts.  You cry, you feel like you are going to die and then... . you feel better and like a 20 ton weight has lifted from your shoulders.  Light at the end of the tunnel kind of thing.

Also, as you get healthier, the healthier partners are who you will hook up with, you'll have no patience for unsafe people.

I watched a movie this weekend, Love Happens with Jennifer Aniston.  About a guy that teaches grief workshops, saying I know how you feel because he lost his wife 3 years ago.  But he was lying, he had never grieved, he was avoiding it, he was scared to deal with it.  Good movie.  

Very thought-provoking thread, DA.  Thank you for your candor and openness.  It sounds like your therapist is one of the rare ones... . competent, challenging and extremely patient.  If I could offer any words of encouragement it would be to... . be patient with yourself.  Your survival skills have served you well; protecting your sanity

for all these years by placing your emotional development on hold until you are completely "safe"---safe from an intellectual staNPDoint... . and an emotional one.  If your therapist wonders why you didn't develop multiple personalities as a survival mechanism, then perhaps the process of unraveling/unveiling your emotional self is going to be equally complex and perplexing.  I imagine it's a process that can't... . won't be rushed into "being".