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Is there anyway I can save my girls relationship with their mom? She has already driven one completely away with her chooses and behaviors. If I interfere it always ends up hurting everyone involved. We are just getting back from our first family vacation without her. She texted and called many times wanting the girls to contact her but none of them wanted to. She believes its my fault of course. I don't know what to do. I know she has to deal with the consequences of her actions but I feel like I should try and make sure some sort of relationship exists. I don't want to force my children into a relationship that isn't healthy. I guess I know the answer is to stand back and just be there for them but it doesn't seem right and I'm hoping someone has a different answer.

How old are the kids?

Who do they live with?

Just to add a few questions to Matt's here 

What has been going on recently with her that would upset the kids so much?

Is it normal for them to not want to talk to their mother?

mamachelle

17g, 13g, 13g and 7g. The seventeen and one thirteen live with me. She doesn't yell but is very aggressive when you disagree or have emotions. 17g was having nightmares about her and cutting. 13g with me is upset with decisions she is making and the untruths. Doesn't trust her anymore. 17g understands that there is illness. 13g just knows something is wrong. Other 13g is a caregiver like I am and is trying to take care of mommy. 7g is to young to understand. I don't believe they are in any physical danger with her. She just doesn't think about them when she makes decisions. Latest problem is that found out she took o e of the cats at her house and dumped it in the country. Similar things happen on a regular basis. She decides she doesn't want something in her life and removes it. 13g asked what would happen if she doesn't want them around her anymore. Told her that would never happen but I don't believe it. She is punishing the two with me by not letting 17g have the car we gave her for her bday and little things lime not letting 13g take her Wii to my house among other things. I just hate the hurt its causing and don't know if I can do anything without making it worse.

You're asking the same question we all ask at this point, but it's the wrong one.

(The answer is, no, you can't fix her relationships with the girls or others, but those relationships may turn out OK in time - out of you control.)

The right question is, "How can I understand and meet all my kids' needs so they will be OK?"

I'm sure the girls all want close relationships with their mother, but they don't really need that;  in fact, it might be best if they have more distance from her - not close relationships.

Kids have a lot of needs.  For young kids, number one is security - a feeling of safety - "I'll be OK."  They certainly need to feel loved, and they need guidance, and help with their intellectual growth, and with their physical needs like food and exercise - and lots more.  And each kid has her own particular needs at each point in time.

Your job is to understand all their needs, and find ways to meet them.  It would be great if they had two healthy parents to share that burden, but they don't, so you have to do it all.  (Or if you have family you can get to help, that will be great.)

My suggestion would be, find a family counselor, who can spend time with each kid, and with you, and give them guidance and tools to manage their stress, and give you idea and suggestions too.

And shift your focus from their mom - who is what she is, and not likely to change - to the kids and their needs.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense but still hard to process. Don't want her in my life but I still care about her. I see the things she is doing and how it hurts her. Spent a lot of my life shielding her from herself. Its hard to let it go. Even harder to accept I need to shield my girls from their mother. Its very confusing but I think you're right about family therapy. We are actually very happy when she is not involved so I have been putting it off. She's always going to be involved so I see the need for it. Sad thing is even when we are being a family without her I feel guilty for everyone being content. My relationship with my girls has never been better and their relationship with each other is the best its ever been. Maybe therapy can help me with the guilt I feel for giving up.

Well ideally you would have your own counselor, plus one for the kids.  That's what I did, and it helped a lot.

"shielding her from herself" sounds like one approach to "fixing" her - what we all try to do.  Doesn't work.  Either she will get diagnosed and follow the recommended treatment plan, or she won't.  More likely, she won't.  And then nothing you can do will "fix" her or "shield her from herself" or whatever.

(I will say this - some hope - my ex is doing much better now than when we were married, or at least I think she is.  The reason is that she has much less stress now.  The kids are mostly with me, and when they're with her, she always knows that if it's too much to handle she can send them over to my house.  They were 8 and 10 when we separated, 15 and 16 now, and they're both doing fine.  If they're with their mom too much - more than a couple of days at a time - that doesn't go well.  But she's glad to have them one or two days at a time, and sometimes just one of them at a time, and that isn't too stressful for her, so she seems to be functioning better now.)

Steps back, to get distance from the person with the problems, and focusing on how best to help the kids.

Yes, beeker, the therapy can help you. I tried to save my dBPD sister's relationship with her children. They finally showed me it wasn't possible unless my sister got help and admitted what she had done to them. That will never happen. N E V E R. So now, more than a decade later, 2 of them do not speak to their mother and one does sometimes. I just gave them the one thing I could give them: unconditional love. Oh, and I told the GAL that my BIL should have custody as he would ensure that his daughter saw her mother, where as my sister would never allow him to see their child. I used to feel guilt about the pain my sister was having. I don't anymore. She made her choices. That may sound harsh to you, but believe me, I tried to get her to see other options. My thanks from her: she blames me that she has no relationship wioth the older too, and limited contact with the youngest. They are all adults now, they made their own choices.

Made appointments for me and the two girls who live with me. She was OK with it because she says we are the ones with the problem. I don't know what to do for the other two but be here for them. Things change so rapidly with her its hard to keep up. I have read the resources I have been pointed to but I still make missteps. It is depressing to see people still having problems after dealing with this for a long time. It also helps to know I'm not the only person dealing with this. Thank you.

Some more comments about counseling:

* I prefer to call it "counseling" not "therapy" because "therapy" sounds like you have a "problem".

* It can be presented to the kids, not as a "solution" to a "problem" - then you have to say why you think somebody has a problem! - but just as a resource - somebody to talk with who will have good ideas about communication, coping skills, etc.

* I would not suggest talking to your ex about it at all.  Would you call her and tell her every time you take the kids to the doctor because they have a persistent cough?  Or for a check-up (maybe a better analogy)?  If it's time for the kids' check-up, you just take them - not something to argue about.

* My wife's lawyer tried to make an issue of this, but I just said what I did - "It was a stressful time so I found a counselor and took the kids, and that helped them." - pretty much dared her to take it in front of the judge.  My view was, nobody would hold against me because I did what I thought was best for the kids - especially since it turned out to be helpful to them.  The lawyer backed off, and the judge even made my ex pay part of the cost.

* Don't try to get the counselor "on your side".  She is a resource for the kids (and you), not a weapon in the parents' fight.

* I never consulted their mom about taking them to the counselor, but I also didn't tell the kids not to tell her.  No secrets.

* If at some point you are challenged, by the other parent or her lawyer, make sure to avoid suggesting that there was a "problem".  If you do, you'll be challenged to say why you think there's a problem - did a doctor diagnose a problem?  Who do you think you are, to diagnose the kids?  Don't say anything that might sound like "I took them to help with their problem."  Say, "They were under a lot of stress and I thought it would be helpful to them, and it was."

She works in the medical field so if I made a decision without consulting her other than emergencies it would be disastrous. I took them for a physical thinking it wasn't a big deal and the fallout was terrible for all of us. Because this is her profession she feels very strongly about this. I may have made a mistake in presenting it as we have problems and need help. I will try the approach you suggested with the other two and see if I get anywhere. The only reason we have avoided court is because I don't think she could handle "outsiders" hearing that she has

S done anything wrong. I'm not sure if she will go for it if she thinks anyone will say something is her fault. That's why I took the approach that the three of us had something wrong.

By avoiding the legal process, you are enabling her to continue pretending there is no problem.

I would suggest the opposite approach:  get an attorney and file a motion for the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator - a psychologist who can administer psych evals to both parents.

Get this stuff out in the open so everyone can deal with it.  Hiding it is making everything worse.

There is a substantial difference in our incomes. Although the judge suggested I ask for maintenance/alimony I declined. At the time I only had custody of the one girl and didn't ask for child support. Pay her a very small child support payment. I am doing fine on my own so the fewer ties I have the better I feel. Pointing this out to illustrate the cost of the trial would run through what little money I have set aside quickly. She used to use that fact to bully me and tell me all the things she would say about me in court. I finally said I would do what I had to to protect my kids and told her it wouldnt be about what we said about each other but what the kids said about the environment that we create for them now that we are divorced. I know that when the other girls decide they have had enough I will end up in court. I'm just trying to save as much as I can before hand. I have found a way to make it easier to deal with her face to face but I don't know if it is a good idea and will have consequences I can't see. When I went to pick up some of the girls things a friend came along. She was on her best behavior in front of him and it was the smoothest interaction I've had with her in a while. Still waiting for some kind of fallout but nothing yet. Does anybody know if it might be coming or has this approach worked with anyone else? If it works I may do this for pick ups/drop offs of the girls.

Several ways to reduce the risk of exchanges:

* Do it at the school, right after school - one parent drops them off in the morning and the other picks them up.

* Do it at a public place, like McDonalds, where there are always people around.

* Do it at the police station.

* Have a non-family adult third party present.

* Audio record the exchanges, if that is legal in your state.  Maybe even let the other party know you are recording.

My kids are older - 8 and 10 when we separated - so we could do exchanges at my ex's home, and I never leave the car, so it would be hard for her to accuse me of anything - none of my prints in her house or even on the door-knob, and the kids would say I never left the car.

I'm really scared. Does it really get so bad that I have to worry about fingerprints? I know it is getting worse and worse but I keep think it will level out. Can it level out? I've read a lot but obviously not enough. I feel like if I prepare for the worse I'm inviting it to happen.

Lots of us have experienced violence and/or false accusations.  Maybe that will never happen for you.  But it's way better to avoid it than to deal with it.  So if you can work out a way to do the exchanges where you have no direct contact with the disordered person, that may be best.

I have a video and an audio recorder with me at all times when I pick our two boys (14 and 10) up at their moms. XBPDw knows it since I said so in court and whenever she tries to come near me I point the video recorder at her. I was in jail for two weeks because of false allegations so I no longer take any chances.

What i have observed is that as our boys got older (she left 5 plus years ago) they began to see things more clearly. I used to pick them up and they would vent for a half hour or more. I listened and validated a lot. They figured out how to deal with their mom when they are with her. Both have different methods and they work for the most part. I see mom slowing distancing both of them from her because of her actions. That is her problem. I didn't cause it and I can't fix it.

I have experienced a lot of false accusations but they always seem to be something she can't prove and I can't disprove. I guess that's the point. I already save and print all texts and she knows it. She stopped texting for a while and started calling. I wouldn't answer so she would leave a voice mail until I told her I saved those as well. Now she think she is texting things that show her in a positive light especially when it is about the girls but because she is BPD she doesn't see how it really looks. I just let her go on thinking she's making herself look good and save them for what looks like a unavoidable court date. Having a recorder for the face to face meeting is good idea. I believe I'll buy one today. Maybe it will work the same way as letting her know I'm saving text/voice mails. The girls have a pretty good idea what's going on. We talk about it for what feels way to much but it is getting easier. They just feel abandoned. 17g and I had a long talk with 13g about how her mother might react if she chose to live with me so nothing is really a surprise. Hurt the first time she said she wasn't surprised by something her mom did just disappointed. I haven't completely gotten over the fact that this isn't my fault so comments like that hurt twice. Once for them and once because I feel guilty they have to feel that way.

If at some point she calls the police and says you hit her - or threatened her - or tried to hit her - it won't matter whether she can prove it or not.  You will be arrested and charged, and your life will be changed for the worse.  The charges will be on the internet forever, for any potential employer or anybody else to see.  You will be guilty til proven innocent, and there may not be a way to prove anything (though if you are audio recording maybe you can prove it).

I was arrested and charged, but the police report prove the accusations were false.  Cost me $5,000 and a night in jail, and huge stress and hassle.  And I can never get the charges off the internet (but the posting about that doesn't make it clear that the charges were dropped, only that I was charged with ":)omestic violence - assault".

Best to avoid any chance of violence or false accusations by never being alone with someone like this, without a non-family adult third party present.

My ex called me to tell me she was kicking our oldest (12 at the time) out of her place and I needed to pick him up or she would have the police take him away. She claimed he pushed her. I was there in about 15 minutes. He was outside, by the curb, sobbing. He had a school bag on one side of him and another bag (with clothes) on the other side. I got him in the car and ex came outside. She started ranting and I calmly said I wanted to leave and I would contact her later. When my back was turned she either slipped or threw herself to the ground. She had a scrape on her hand. She called the police and claimed I snuck up behind her, picked her up, and slammed her into the ground. Our son testified I didn't touch her. Ex contradicted her statements made at the pretrial. I was found guilty of disorderly conduct and sentenced to two weeks in jail.

I take no chances at all anymore.

Thank you. She tried to get me to meet her at my house for pick up of the girls. After reading what you said I stuck to my guns and told her we would still meet at the convenience store which happens to have cameras. I could see in her eyes when she got there she was unhinged. You saved me a lot of trouble. I am not taking any chances anymore.

Our court order states during pick up that the person in the car remain in their car and the person in their residence remain in their residence until the other party drives away. This was put in after I went to jail. The second time after jail I was at her place to pick the boys up she came out of her place and started to walk towards my car. I turned my video camera on, stepped out of my car, and pointed it directly at her. She was at least 20 yards away but did see what I was doing. She immediately turned around and went back into her place. A few pick ups after that she did the same thing. I stayed in the car and pointed the camera at her approaching. She turned around. That was two years ago. Since then she has tried a few variations with different pick up locations. I have the camera on as I am arriving. When she approaches I simply point it towards her. She keeps her distance. I download all videos onto my computer. I know I sound paranoid but I haven't figured another way to keep myself safe from false allegations. I only communicate through email. I don't have texting on my phone. In an emergency our court order states that voicemail is the only other form of communication. In the last two years I have only used voicemail once. Ex uses it on a regular basis. I do not believe any would constitute a real emergency. Last year ex started calling me from various phones. I stopped answering my phone with numbers I didn't recognize. This went on for about three months. Many times she would hang up and then call back and leave a voicemail. None were emergencies. I had six phone numbers added to my phone from this. This way I knew who was calling. My emails are short and to the point. They only pertain to the children. I get emails still that tell me what is wrong with me. I used to get about 35 to 40 emails a month. This lasted for about 4 years.The last 6 months the number has been reduced to about 5 a month. I saved them all just in case.

Apparently her and the new boyfriend went to my house first for the pick up. Had. My youngest with them. Got home and the front door was wide open. I want to believe the best and think my daughter went in to get something because she has a habit of leaving it open but of course I still feel uncomfortable. I was going to bring it up till I realized I was probably being baited since she didn't bring it up. We tell each other every time we bring one of the girls by to get something. I no longer feel comfortable doing that at her house because she is moving and I'm afraid she will move something and claim I took it. Should I tell her the girls need to take what they need for their visit with her and not bring them by or just tell the girls? They would all understand except the youngest but I feel weird telling them they can't visit their home when they are with their mother. And I have learned from all of you that the if she thinks her behavior can be documented she keeps it in check. I am waiting for the barrage of contact I will receive now that most of the details are settled and she realizes I have no reason to contact her.

My ex has lived in at least 4 places since we separated in 2005 and divorced.  I have not been inside any of them.  Not once.  I cannot risk it, even when I've gotten rare invitations, as I recall maybe two.  Her emotions and perceptions are inconsistent and she still ranges from "pick up or drop off our child here" to "I will call the police if you pull into the parking lot".

On the other hand, I have once allowed her to bring in her relatives for a tour of the home.  That was years ago and I will not allow it again.

I am firm with my pre-teen that if he is ever alone at my home I do not want her to enter on any pretext, whether it be bathroom emergency, hunger emergency, thirst emergency, get homework emergency, whatever.  Everything is an emergency for my entitled ex.  However, he also knows I will not enter her residence and especially if she's not present.

Of course, our separation was high conflict, my ex has filed harassment, stalking and worse against me, so I have no choice but to be very, very cautious.

With most of the property divided and paperwork done I have had no reason to contact her other than the girls. I'm afraid she thought I was finding excuses to talk to her because I was still hoping for reconciliation. I am not sure how she will react when she figures out I don't want to talk to her for any reason. From what I understand that will be when it gets its worst. I was hoping with someone else in her life it might not happen but from what I'm hearing here she doesn't want me she wants me to want her so it doesn't matter if she moved on.