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I've been through all the on/off the pedestal, recycles after even more recycles, painted black & split back to white, stalked, worshiped/hated/worshiped again etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda!

I'm far from the most experienced, but I've clocked up enough experience to know what they often do & often don't. Lets say I'm not totally wet behind the ears, but still get confused (which I've come to appreciate a little because the day I understand all of it will be the day I start thinking I'm BPD!).

I experienced so much of what I read on these boards about devaluing & how you go from hero to villain back to hero etc etc.

I also experienced all of the devaluing not just me as a person, but the kind loving things i did, the places we went... . basically when devaluing starts it's my experience that ANYTHING is on the menu!

Or maybe not quite everything!

Here's my explanation & question (born out of confusion)

Throughout the whole experience from when we first touched, right the way round the roller coaster track many many times & right upto today, there's ONE THING she's never devalued, and I don't know why!

She's ALWAYS maintained that our sex life was the best she's ever had, she'll never find that again with anyone else, despite her trust issues she trusts me explicitly in bed, she's always told me I've got a bigger than average 'tool'... . Ego boosting stuff I guess & makes you feel good!

The patterns of 'activeness' fit with others experiences, of the disorder, i.e full on, then withholding, then back to full on again. I can see it was used as a control tool as per the model of this affliction.

The list goes on & on about how great our sex life was & was never an issue. I don't really care anymore because I've come to feel so often lied to I see no real value in anything she says. I've never been made to feel like a sex god in any previous relationship, & equally never been put down over sex in any previous relationship. I guess experience of other girlfriends has left me thinking I'm 'ok' in that dept.

So WHY does a person who has no difficulty cutting you down, destroying you with the cruelest of statements & opinions, NEVER put down the sex she experienced with you?

It would be the ultimate 'bulls-eye' shot to the confidence & soul of a man.

SO WHY WHY WHY NEVER GO THERE?

You answered your own question.

"I see no real value in anything she says"

What she said or not said is the same thing ... .

Together it her message and you see no value in it !

I'm not questioning whether or not it's true!

I'm talking about the boundary she seems to have with devaluing it... .

Whether what she says is true or not, why is it the only thing she won't be negative about?

It could have been the hook that kept her abandonment fears from coming up to the surface.  Sex with your partner is suppose to be "the best ever"

Moonie75,    unreal… I could have written, and have wondered the same!  Mine ‘talks’ a big game regarding her sexual desires, and seems addicted to teasing guys and bragging to women (Histrionic PD as well, she craves attention).  But actually she’s not all that competent in bed, from my view and experience … and it’s nearly funny to hear her brag.  In fact, it’s childlike – which (thinking as I go), since we’re not having sex with ‘children,’ we can’t fully relate to... .   I bet their emotional immaturity is a major factor! 

Mentally, they’re like (in our case) little girls; confused, maybe scared, but intrigued.  It’s said they lack adult maturity …perhaps a mature woman can walk away from sex, assuming she’ll find it in her next relationship.  Does the BPD lack the confidence to think they’ll find it again?  As my on-again off-again uBPDgf loves to ‘talk the talk,’ I’ve made reference to her assumed ‘prior experience.’  She actually gets angry, letting me know she’s ‘only been with a few guys,’ and has their children as proof…  As we’ve also talked about ‘our problems’ (all linked to BPD, for which she always gives me equal billing ), sex has never been a complaint.

…which leads me to an observation ... . I’ve only mentioned to a close friend (who had no idea why) … but in the heat of sex, I’ve seen panic in her eyes.  Eyes wide open, looking into mine - and apparently terrified.  Not always, but something I’ve not forgot.  She’s had nothing to fear from me, and sensing her fear likely caused me to get closer.  Weird, I know they play the victim role (though forget why), but this seemed such an unconscious response in an unrelated act.  …so much to decipher.  But I’m right there with you in your every description (and detail) and look forward to an answer.   

Inside, yes yes yes & yes. I'm kind of pleased I'm not on my own, but also sad to know others are suffering the brain-burning confusion this brings.

I'd give my left arm to understand WHY, even in the wildest most evil rage filled dis-regulating moments, that boundary (and only boundary at that point) stands firm in her brain? 

It's the only boundary which stays in place no matter what, and even more miraculously, seemingly without any enforcement!

…thinking further … they’ve a ton of fears and insecurities; sex requires matching emotion and energy, are they really there?  Are they really with us?  Or are they ‘faking’ it …like they fake their way through social settings and life in general... ?  

So, to complain, they’d also be complaining about their own sexual prowess, or – open themselves up to the perceived criticism they’d so fear hearing from us.  They’ve so little self confidence, to even bring up the subject of sex, allowing us to possibly confirm their greatest fears, would be too much of a chance.  So they leave it.

Also, they’re always leading on and teasing guys or bragging to women … what if word got out that they’re not all they claim in the bedroom... ?  I agree they’d likely use some derogatory or demeaning comment regarding sex to cut us down in the heat of a rage …but do they REALLY want to go there... ?  Or, do they so fear our comments and complaints they instinctively avoid that (one) topic?  

…don’t get me wrong, we’ve had fun …and she’s open to much exploration (kinda like a child... ?), but seems always ‘hanging back,’ waiting for me to initiate …possibly with a fear of inadequacy – but with a real ‘Out There’ reputation to uphold.  Hummmm

Dear Inside,

    Interesting observation, to say the least.  It's been well described by psychiatrists that pwBPD have a higher probability of childhood sexual abuse and that the actual prevalence of this in the BPD polulation is probably much higher than known since this abuse is often so deeply repressed.  The need to have shame involved with the r/s (rarely discussed here as we "nons" are probably too ashamed to admit we were a part of something shameful) certainly suggests that they learned early on that shame and love go hand in hand.  I could totally see someone totally 'channeling' their deepest memories of sexual abuse as children during sex as an adult and giving you a terrible glimpse on their face of what they were feeling when the act happened then.  A bit scary.

LT

I don't understand how they can have a boundary remain in place even when they're having dis-regulated rage?

Doesn't that make it a 'regulated rage' due to one little rule on where they CAN'T take the devaluation ?

Lao Tzu, “A bit scary.”  …interesting point, basically a Flashback? 

She has talked openly of her childhood, and that of a life-long friend who was sexually abused.  But my uBPDgf convincingly told me “at least she’d not been abused sexually.”  But factoring in her BPD, and ability to lie …who knows for sure.  But she did/ has let me deep enough into her life that I don’t think she’s suffered sexual abuse …at least not as a child.  There were some crazy adult relationships, including having a gun held to her head …that I’ve not likely heard the half of.  I’ve never considered that trauma … until now…  Well, that may explain her fear of and/ or during intimacy… 

Does anyone else daydream of what a normal partner or lover might be/ was like?  One you don’t have to decipher a code of behavior and fears as deep as our BP’s... ?  Seems I’m attempting to remove the hooks … hopefully enough to move on…  What a trip ~   

Equally convinced mine wasn't sexually abused... Her issues come from Daddy running off with Mums best friend when she was just five yrs old. Mummy had a breakdown which terrified her as a child, & Daddy never turned up to collect her for the fun weekends he promised over & over. Perfect pickings for BPD to move in!

Do the male BPD's also have the 'brakes' that stop them devaluing the sex lives with relationship partners, even while they devalue everything else in the relationship?

Moonie75:

“I don't understand how they can have a boundary remain in place even when they're having dis-regulated rage?

Doesn't that make it a 'regulated rage' due to one little rule on where they can, and can't take the devaluation ?”

Excellent question and description … for which I can only give further speculation.  I think their behavior is quite ‘regulated,’ always have – I’ve watched ‘the gears churn’ as she’s carefully and cleverly ‘staged a rage’ ... . carefully leading it in the direction she wanted to go.  Pure fabrication.  

But I consider mine ‘high functioning,’ and quite adept at steering an argument in her preferred direction – while sprinkling it with ‘just enough’ outrageous behavior to …convince a parent she needs to be taken seriously   

Lets see … through a child’s eyes, can they control rage?  Not if it’s real – only when it’s fake; and it’s often fake, a performance designed to achieve a desired effect.  As mentioned, I think they purposefully steer clear of sex.  Maybe not in all cases… but at least ‘ours.’  

I gotta pull away and begin my weekend ... . without her ~  I'll check in when I can - good post :)

So WHY does a person who has no difficulty cutting you down, destroying you with the cruelest of statements & opinions, NEVER put down the sex she experienced with you?

Moonie,

Who knows what your ex says about you to others; most likely you are being devalued sexually as well.  Just because you don't think something is happening within a disordered mind doesn't mean it isn't.  

I don't think anything is off limits, and you were most likely being objectified sexually, which is why she didn't devalue the experience to you personally.  Telling you how wonderful you were as it relates to her sexual satisfaction doesn't mean there was intimacy involved.  It just means you made her feel good.  

tailspin

Moonie75,    unreal… I could have written, and have wondered the same!  Mine ‘talks’ a big game regarding her sexual desires, and seems addicted to teasing guys and bragging to women (Histrionic PD as well, she craves attention).  But actually she’s not all that competent in bed, from my view and experience … and it’s nearly funny to hear her brag.  In fact, it’s childlike – which (thinking as I go), since we’re not having sex with ‘children,’ we can’t fully relate to... .  I bet their emotional immaturity is a major factor!  

I think there have been several posts here about this.  

As far as devaluing, there were lots of things that he could devalue, but never chose to.  The how and why he did something doesnt really matter anymore, its why I thought being in a relationship with no intimacy was ok for me.  

Hey moonie, I had the exact same things said to me in bed with my ex. I think of them as words used for tools to heighten the moment. I also recall her after the heat of the moment asking me if she was the best I ever had among other of her womanly features. I think the words were a two way street purpose as an ego boost for us, along with seeking compliments of the same nature back. One of those 'I want to be seen as perfect' sort of things. I don't doubt that she said the same compliments to previous lovers.

Why can't it just be something as simple as she's lying to you about it being "the best" to keep you on the hook? Even if you are broken up, it leaves the door open for her to hook up with you for a random fix.

We come full circle - "I see no real value in anything she says" ... . it's just a hook? Who knows ... .

To a borderline, sex=control. I saw through it though. I'm the type of person that likes emotional connection. There were times when I'd feel so totally and utterly emotionally disconnected from him and he'd want sex. I just got the impression that he didn't really care what I had to say-that sex would solve everything in the relationship and that really angered me. I thought "No, you're not going to fob me off here" basically. I actually had arguments with my BPD ex over the sex issue. My gut instinct just told me that there was something very wrong with how he viewed sex, that it wasn't normal or at least what I would consider "normal".

When I say that they think sex=control, I mean that they use sex as a means of getting: validation, attention, easing their abandonment fears (don't leave me, I'll sleep with you if you stay with me), to feel loved (having someone touch them in an affectionate manner can be soothing for them), easing their mood (if they're in a bad mood, then sex will make them feel better), stop feeling empty (I'll feel whole if I have sex, I won't feel so alone in the world), stop you being mad with them (lets have makeup sex). I think that borderlines know there's something fundamentally wrong with them and that sex is the only hook they have... that if it wasn't for sex, no one would be interested in them!

There's some confusion in this thread!

It's not in question whether they tell you the truth or not!

They can't tell the truth, we know this!

The question is about their self imposed boundary that stops them devaluing the relationships sex life, when any other aspect of the relationship is perfectly appropriate to devalue.

Moonie75,

Great points... . mine was the exact same.

She INSISTED that I was the greatest lover she ever had... . never deviated from that point, even in the heat of battle.

And she LOVED sex. It wasn't an act (and yes, on that point, I can tell).

Perhaps telling me that I was her best lover ever was really her reminding me that she was my best lover ever? And in so doing, she gave herself more power?

Also, mine was sexually abused as well, and she clearly used sex inappropriately. However, she enjoyed the h*ll out of it... .  

Why does it matter to you so much? Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade and say "this person is not good for me"... you don't need to analyse it to the nth degree. I mean this really kindly but I think you're actually torturing yourself even asking "why". Someone told me a while back to keep it simple and it is advice I've really taken on board. So I would say just keep it simple-if someone is devaluing you in many different ways, then it hardly matters that they're throwing you the odd bone by not devaluing your sexual performance.

I agree with that advice.

I wasn't torturing myself, I'm able to laugh about it to some extent.

I (and it seems some others) were just musing over boundary that remains when all else fall away.

I agree ! Sex is a way for them to feel wanted, "loved" and to placate their innermost fears (regardless of whence they come). Sex is a tool, a placebo for self-esteem boost.

However, it's impossible for us to make up for and to manage surreal, unbridled and overwhelming feelings when they have them. How can any sensible and loving man have sex "properly" with a girl who wants a stud in bed whilst grumbling and muttering all along and even crying because she thinks that she's fat and not wanted ?

My ex-wife had everything a man could dream of and when I would tell her about it, she would say that I was a liar. She wanted to strive for perfection whereas she already was smoking hot ! She was always overjoyed when another man was hitting on her, even when we were strolling in a street and that she noticed some men's lasting glances... .

She would accuse her ex-husband of rape, of conspicuously ogling at other girls, of depriving her from her sexual needs because of her supposed plumpness and of overall abusive behaviour towards her but she always said that he was great in bed. I'll never know whether it was true or not and I don't give a rabbit's foot about it !

Musicfan42, you say:

“To a borderline, sex=control.  …I mean that they use sex as a means of getting: validation, attention, easing their abandonment fears (don't leave me, I'll sleep with you if you stay with me), to feel loved (having someone touch them in an affectionate manner can be soothing for them), easing their mood (if they're in a bad mood, then sex will make them feel better), stop feeling empty (I'll feel whole if I have sex, I won't feel so alone in the world), stop you being mad with them (lets have makeup sex). I think that borderlines know there's something fundamentally wrong with them and that sex is the only hook they have ... . that if it wasn't for sex, no one would be interested in them!”

An excellent summation (and copied to my files of “BPD Quotes” – around five 10-page Word documents I’ll occasionally read to remind myself how futile this adventure may be ).  So… sex it too important a tool to toss ... . and they’ll not make snide remarks about one’s sexual prowess due to serious aforethought?  And – they like it! 

That makes sense, and fits with my speculation that most of their tantrums are premeditated.  It’s weird how my (clinging)BPDgf agrees that ‘sex has never been a problem between us’ …and her apparent unwillingness to ‘blame our demise/s’ on it.  Admittedly, it’s likely what I miss most … along with what appears to be my illusional desire for a solid companion and r/s…

I am actually of the opinion that they most certainly can devalue the sex life too... . Just as they can idealize it... . With my BPD guy one of the things that connected us to begin with was just sex and a mutual openness, if you will and candor about sexual fantasies and I mean, he*k, I am from a scandinavian country, so we are sex addicts all of us, right... . ?  Anyway our sex life is fantastic, when it is... . that is... . Since he will often withdraw from sex either when feeling depressed, fears I will leave him, if we don't see each other often enough or also when we have had a period of really good times with a lot of fun and a lot of sex... . Sometimes I think the withdrawal from sex is due to the fear of getting too close, too intimate, since it has been very intimate and not just wild, but both intense and intimate in a way I think neither of us have experienced that much before... . But sometimes it is also a means to diminish me, especially in times like now when he flips and doesn't want us to have a r/s and starts rambling and ranting about seeing others that live closer to him... . i.e can be at his back and call more easily than I can... .

That is a form of devaluation. Not necessarily the kind where they say the sex is bador I don't feel like it, but more a means to make me feel deprived of it... . And also show a willingness to let go of even that, even though he thinks our sexlife is great... . Self punishment to prevent a feared greater catastrophe... . it is in these times he can say dumb as* stuff like: if sex is going to be a requirement for us seeing each other then I din't want to see you anymore... . I just want to be friends... .

Words that can occur like two days after him talking endlessly about a future trip together as a couple where he stipulates us having sex all the time... .

Anyway those kinds of statements serves to belittle me and make me feel like I am trying to force myself sexually on him and an attempt to create shame in me... . devaluation... .

When the sex part is the only thing they maintain that too is a form of devaluation, since they are all about feelings... . That is to say, well you are only good for one thing, and that is sex... . Or keeping the validation about being a sexgod or sexgodess flowing... . Which in a way is a form of devaluation too of the intimacy part of the sexual act... .

Sorry if I am being to open or blunt... . but I am a scandinavian... .  

Yeah, pretty much all of the time... . I look at my history and I am drawn to "crazy" women for a reason... .

Perhaps the excitement?  I really don't know

MCC

Hi my Family.

     MCC, yeah, you have to wonder about the 'flashback' thing going on.  No way to know for sure since the repression they need as a shock absorber for these heinous acts  (if they happened at all) must be incredibly powerful.  By the way MCC, while the excitement may draw you, it's probably the unwillingness that they have to acknowledge boundaries that keeps you on the line until the idealization really gets going.  If you think about it, you have 50 relationships that follow a very easily defined course: meet, engage a bit, take some time, engage a bit more, etc. Then, you meet someone who jumps to stage 5 after three minutes and may act like an old married couple the next day.  Not formulaic is, by definition almost, a lot more interesting, if only because you really don't have a clue what is happening next. 

     Of course, now that you 'have knowledge of the ways of the dark side of The Force'  lol you have a much better idea of what is going on and a much, much better idea of what is going to happen in the future. So, if you're wise, you put your light saber back in your pants  :)  and get out at light speed!  Darth Maul Smiley Face?: 

LT

Just a quick question Moonie: Have you ever thought about whether what your ex says to you about your sex life may not be what she says to others. My diagnosed BPD wife always tells me how much of a wonderful father I am and how great my fatherhood skills are. However to others she says the complete oipposite. I wonder if your ex does the same thing to you regarding your sex life.

It's not in question whether they tell you the truth or not!

They can't tell the truth, we know this!


I have a contradictory impression.  It appears to me that they ALWAYS tell the truth.  Let us here make a distinction between 'Truth" and "Facts".

Facts are fixed, unchanged, verifiable.  Truth is subjective interpretation of those facts.

So it seems to me that the BPD sufferers always tell the truth which is, as they perceive the facts.  As their perception and feelings change, their "Truth" changes too.

For a BPD sufferer, there is no distinction between "Facts" and "Feelings".  So if they are angry, their perception is that you made them angry, and so is their 'Truth".

Good topic, Moonie. I think musicfan42 answered the question well.

I would often say to my uBPDex that she mistook sex for love. My observation is that when they have done the wrong thing, are scared or fearful of abandonment sex gives them that sense of security that they need so much. When all else fails sex will make them feel better, wanted and loved and by overwhelming you with it it's the perfect tool to blindside you.

Mine always said that in previous relationships the number of orgasms she would have ranged from "one to none". I can't imagine the new guy has gone ga-ga over her if the sex was not overwhelming and he is not "the best lover she has ever had" like we once were. It's all BS and they fall back on sex to solve all the problems they cause and its a great way to blindside the new guy.  

But there is something more to the sex thing that I never figured out - my uBPDex masturbated a hell of a lot and always wanted more and more sex. Ten orgasms were never enough and she would still masturbate afterwards, masturbate in the mornings and masturbate while watching TV in the lounge room. Unlike what I've read in these forums, she never withheld sex or used it as a bargaining tool (except for the last two weeks where she tried to withhold).  

Actually my dBPDex told me he lies to people all the time, had no sense of identity, etc.  So, in terms of who they are and what they do, I think they lie, but what they feel, I don't think they lie about it - it's just that what they feel is constantly changing... . so in the moment its the truth, but it doesn't mean much.

Regarding sex though, I think that it's something really key for how a borderline thinks of himself.  Maybe it's really the only thing they can cling to in their fragile identity.  At one point, when I guess he really wanted to hurt me and was telling me he had moved on to someone else, he justified it in many ways, including the 'I'm a lover' line. And that one really gave me pause.  I think that yes, because intimacy is impossible for them, sex is the next best thing, or can replace it, so in their minds if they think they are "good lovers" well that's how they can draw people in. 

Acknowledging deficiencies in that area would probably make them feel utterly and completely powerless, it's kind of a place that they can't go to. What would have happenned if I'd challenged his "I'm a lover" statement - I feel bad even thinking about it.  It's like rejecting at a child's only hope for existence.

While my BPDex was weird in bed, he was (is) extremely physically attractive, so he still has power there... . like an ability to create desire in people, but can't actually ever deliver the goods.   

Sex with him was the weirdest I'd ever experienced.  At first, it felt like he just wanted to consume me, and it was way over the top. Then there were moments in sex where he just dissociated, lay there like a zombie, and it would last 2 seconds. When he was drunk or on drugs it probably worked the best... . but even then, there was ALWAYS something wrong.  Like one time, he got this demonic look on his face as we were starting to have sex.  Almost like he wanted to freak me out, make me feel unsafe.  Which is why when he trotted out the "I'm a lover" line - I was kind of shocked.  The best moments I had with him were when we were intimate without sex, now that I think of it. Cuddling, etc.  It seems like sex was destabilizing for him.

It's all kind of sad, really.

Hi all

When I met my exUBPD, he suggested we have STD tests before becoming 'involved'.

He said this was something we should both do, due to our suspicions over our then recently past lovers...

Later he used this to devalue me, insisting that it was primarily because of me that he suggested this, (what a hypocrite I thought)...

He also said to me in the beginnings, in this totally cold voice, (assuming I thought I had 'power over him' that "A little sex won't influence me, (insert my name here)".

Yet, as we became partial lovers and in a relationship, he went all out to really impress me, (going way overboard), infact I had to tell him to stop many times, because I had had plenty of pleasure, and the sensations of his attempting to give me more was too much... He wanted to do it all the time, several times per day, was always trying to lure me into the bedroom, walking around naked, drawing attention to his 'equipment', (he had psoriasis and occasionally it flared up on his thing). I found it funny and endearing mostly, and of course I was highly and primally attracted to him always, so it was never hard to tempt me, but occasionally I found it annoying too...

If I was busy, and didn't pay him enough attention, he could easily turn nasty again too, I just never knew, since I walked on eggshells the whole time anyway...

It was also nothing for him to turn on me like a black widow only minutes after making love... Yet I still was drawn to him powerfully like a 'moth to a flame'.

This was his hook I believe... the bragging about how good he was, the idolisation of my feminine parts, how I looked, how I smelt, and of course he felt gifted in terms of his own equipment too, bragging about it a lot... yet he gave the impression that the whole sex thing wasn't a big issue to him... as if he could take it or leave it, he wasn't some sex starved maniac, totally obsessed with it or women in general...

When he went out to intentionally hurt me, (for some imagined hurt I had perpetrated on him) he would devalue me sexually, once comparing me to his last serious partner, saying I wasn't as tall, wasn't blonde, she had a better body, and was more 'wild' in bed, that perhaps I wasn't wild enough for him...

I never recovered from that... .

He justified saying this to me, because he felt I had hurt him on purpose... . Yet I hadn't... The hurt I might have given him was not intentionally done, and likely was in response to some way more powerful hurt that he had continually done to me...

In the last months of our relationship, he shunned most affection, (not that he was ever that affectionate anyway) and also shunned any sexual contact with me... Accusing me of coming up to see him, and treating him like a 'booty call'...

This was a revenge tactic, because of the way he would turn on me after making love, I had often said to him that it seemed like that was all he had wanted from me...

Thing is, I never turned on him after making love, ever...

His excuse for shunning affection and making love, was mostly that he had lost more weight, (not eating) and he looked horrible, like a concentration camp prisoner... In his eyes, his parents, and my family (who prevent him from living with me in his eyes) are the Nazis... He often abused me, yet at the same time, treated me like I 'deserved it' since I am a Nazi myself...

His mind is that twisted, that he believes his parents are starving him, and he used to say that when he lived with me too, yet it was all in his own twisted delusional mind... . like most things sadly...

I hope he gets the help he needs, badly, before it is too late... or before he kills someone... (even if accidentally).

Maybe the sex was fine and it was all the other emotional chaos that upset the apple cart of the relationship?

Is it possible that her leaving regardless of the quality of the sex life may be more important to you than her? 

SELF-AWARE: When is good sex a bad thing?  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=136079.0)

My uBPDh is very focused on sex. He always said that is what our relationship was based on. I have only had sex with one other man (when I lost my virginity). After that, for the past 18 yrs - it has been only him. You could say he trained me to be how he wanted. Things really didn't get bad until after the 10 year mark. He started to paint me black occasionally. The emotional distance led to me physically not wanting to have sex with him. This sparked some abandonment issues in him. It convinced him that I must not desire him, that he wasn't good enough, or there must be someone else. He couldn't wrap his mind around me not wanting to have sex with him because I was upset with him. He cheated on me after that. I didn't totally cut him off - but it was not every other day like he wanted. His rational for why he cheated was that I didn't have sex with him enough. He couldn't transition from sex crazed teenagers into adults that have many obligations and can't always focus on the physical. It was literally the only thing he computed as love. He began referring to me as a whore and would periodically say really mean things to me (still does) if he felt like I wasn't giving him enough "attention". I do love having sex with him but cruelty doesn't exactly get me in the mood. It has been this battle for 8 years - during which I had a intermittent long distance emotional affair. He actually said to me that the guy could not possibly love me unless we had sex. For him, I believe that is true in his mind. I have been trying to detach to protect myself (I believe he is cheating again). He says he wants a divorce, he is moving out, blah, blah. Then he will say that he loathes the idea of some other man getting to have sex with me. Well ok. I pointed out to him that if we are divorced, who I have sex with is none of his business. He was being particularly mean for a couple of days. I was ignoring his mean texts (we work opposite shifts so we can go a few days without seeing each other). I was acting as unconcerned as I could. Yesterday morning, he showed up (while he was at work) right after I got home. I ignored him. He told me to come lock the door. I said ok and got up (he refuses to kiss me or have any contact). I went to close the door behind him - he turned, grabbed me and kissed me, told me a was a beautiful woman, and we ended up having sex. Ok - I probably shouldn't have done it but I love him and I was starved for affection. I didn't hear from him for the following 24 hrs. When he got home this evening - he ignored me, grabbed a 6 pk of beer and headed out to go party with his friends. It was as if yesterday didn't happen. Last week when he did a similar thing, I took it to mean I was getting painted a little whiter. I was promptly informed that the sex didn't change anything and that he just f**ked me like the whore I was. It made me cry. I do think that when he gets to feeling me pulling away - that is how he pulls me back. And it is very difficult to refuse any kind of affection from him. Especially when I want to stay and make it work. They are some confusing folks.  - pecia

Pecia that's pretty awful. :'(  I can see why you wouldnt want to have sex and get any closer to him.

For everybody in this thread-

One of the things the 10th beliefs from the lessons promote is
It really applies to a lot things in the differences of how a person may think sadly.

Here are the lessons on the beliefs that can keep you stuck:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=136462.msg1331264#msg1331264

Sex and intimacy are two completely different things. Intimacy requires vulnerability.

Since Borderlines fear intimacy - sex became an act for my ex. And for me too. If he devalued me what better way to avoid all the feelings and emotions than to have sex - it was used as a barometer for the "health" of our relationship. Towards the end we hardly ever had sex. He had an issue with that and told me it was one of the reasons he left!

Sex with intimacy ---> connectedness and shared experience not used for leverage in a relationship for servitude/validation.

MOONIE - if a women was to say these things to you again what would be your thinking?


Worth noting from this workshop... .


Objectification is another topic worth noting and exploring.

and yet... . pwBPD are soo vulnerable. But maybe not all of them show it. I don't know. Did anyone else have this experience? By BPDex's vulnerability was probably what really sucked me in the most.  I guess it's just that they can't trust people to whom they expose this vulnerability, so they show us their pain and then they slam the door in our face.

Want you to believe they are vulnerable! My ex had a life long pattern of relating the way he does - he is very resourceful and has picked himself up off the floor many times.

My ex was far from helpless - I thought he was - or more to the point my care taking personality wanted him to be helpless!

Need to feel empathy to feel vulnerable.

moonie said:

<So WHY does a person who has no difficulty cutting you down, destroying you with the cruelest of statements & opinions, NEVER put down the sex she experienced with you?>

tailspin responded:

<Who knows what your ex says about you to others; most likely you are being devalued sexually as well.  Just because you don't think something is happening within a disordered mind doesn't mean it isn't.>

i say:

well actually a lot of us DO get feedback from friends/family/etc re what the pwBPD is saying abt us.  and in fact, didn't WE get lots of feedback abt the ex's of the pwBPD from them themself?

IOW, my xBPDgf talked a lot of trash talk to me abt most of her ex's, so i imagine i have a fairly good idea what kind of stuff she talks abt/devalues.  and i never heard her devalue any of her ex's sexually.  in many other ways YES!  but not sexually.

btw, my ex told me all the same stuff you guys are mentioning:  i was the best, she felt safest with me, was more interested/aroused/satisfied/etc w/me sexually/emotionally/spiritually/etc than w/anybody ever before.  i am curious if she/they   said/say   THAT to EVERYBODY they bed?

i think moonie is asking a very significant question here.

icu2

 

For me personally ucmeicu2 - my ex told me the same thing - sex is a way to serve and a way to regulate emotions. Your orgasm was not yours... . we were objects.

musicfan, excellent point.  i'm gonna confess, for my own healing and to own part of my part in the r/s with my xBPDgf that that thought ran through my mind many times... . if it wasn't for the sex/making out/or even just cuddling i wouldn't have stayed.  once the sex/making out/or even just cuddling  started getting spotty, i had a hard time justifying staying.  by the time she said we "could be friends" (without benefits, btw)  i was like "thanks but no thanks!  too much trouble = not enough payoff!".  i didn't say it exactly, but i thought it.  

icu2

My ex devalued our sex life:

-She told therapist "I feel like he's been raping me for 6 months" in regard to our sex life while living together

-She told me "sex is not part of a relationship; our love is deeper now"

-She said I should "grow up", "we're not 15", and other such things with regard to me having a sex drive.

And yet there is the contradiction of her being touchy feely with any guys who talk to her, having sex on the first date, cheating, etc.  Perhaps it's not a contradiction to her, though, since she considers it immature horseplay with no intimacy involved.  Oh, wait, it's also violent and violating.

She was sexually abused (according to her); however, after hearing I sexually abused her as well, I don't know what to believe.  I tried to be very sensitive sexually, very attuned to her facial expressions and body language because of her supposed traumatic past.  :)espite my efforts, I was just another rapist.

Isnt the ability to switch so amazing?  Wonderful sex life while she is idealizing you... . once hooked, slowly starts to pull away... . leaves you wondering "what is wrong with me?"  I more than did my share to push her away and I will admit that.  I was by NO means a saint in the dynamic... .

Then we split.  She had her next lined up and was instantly able to be sexy with him... . nice feeling eh?

Then we would recycle and was now instantly able to be sexy with me... .

Wash, Rinse, Repeat... .

Then all of the jealousy that was used to hurt me throughout all of this... . talk about a vicious cycle... .

Mine was "sexually abused," but like everything else she said to me, I believe it about as far as I can throw her... . That was clearly just apart of her whole "victim" attention seeking behavior.

I had to walk away... . NC and that is how it will remain... . I deserve better as I am now able to demand better for MYSELF!

There are no limits with these people... . they will say whatever they need to say to get what they need at the moment.  They are selfish people and cannot possibly see how their actions impact other people.  They are just not capable!

MCC

MCC, I could not agree with you more.

horrifying similarity.  btw, i think i actually wrote earlier in this thread that my xBPDgf did NOT devalue me sexually but (and here's an example of being in denial?) your post gave me a jarring memory:  i was told by at least 2 of her friends/ex's that she told THEM about me the same thing she had told ME about them:  that i used/abused her sexually, pursued her relentlessly, and i was a stalker etc.  none of it true, either!  major projection on her part?  in retrospect, she's very uncomfortable with her sexuality and with people knowing she prefers women so of course she would have to lie to cover her tracks and deflect.

now i wonder if any of what she said abt her abuse was true.  i always knew at least some of it was exaggeration but now... .  maybe it was all made up!  b/c i eventually met several of the people she told me abused her and they sure seemed like nice normal people to me, not the monsters she painted them out to be.  we all had similar things to say about her whacked out behavior, however.  :light:

so anyways yeah, she DID devalue me just not to my face!  to my face, no matter what phase/stage we were in, she always told me some version of she loved me the best, the most, i was The One she waited her whole life for, her Soulmate, etc.  at first i thought it was weird but didn't take me long to join in her magical thinking and get carried away in the fantasy.  later she accused me of living in a fantasy!   lol  

icu2

From my experience, it's part of a major vulnerability.  I was just a "f***buddy" off and on for a long time, not part of his real life.  Even after the sex stopped we were friendly.  We dated for a few months, he loved me, I was home, it was awesome, and then... . he started pulling away.  Broke off the "relationship" wanted to keep the friendship.  Was afraid the relationship would end, and I'd leave.  Typical BPD the only way I'd stay is if we stayed away from each other.  Then within a couple of months, BAM he's back.  Then he looks for a reason to end it.  Our friendship is tight, we went away with a bunch of people, and on the way back he's telling me to go on dating sites, texting other women"friends".  and then vowing to me that he won't cheat on me, he's gonna stay celibate.  

a) the vacation was awesome, and the more his fear grows, the more he detaches... . he's currently not taking my calls, I leave an offhand message and I get a text back.  

b) I have to remember it's nothing to do with me, he was severely emotionally, physically, and probably sexually abused as a child.  I just stay myself and centered and he drifts back.  

c)unfortunately, he is one of the most giving and attentive lovers I've ever known.  And on a superificial level, I hate when he ends that aspect, and enjoy when he starts it again.  So how BPD am I?

I wouldn't call yourself BPD... . you love this person and are caught up in the addiction.  I think we tend to mirror them as well at times, so I can see why you could see that, but that's really not the case... . I have questioned my own personal sanity at times as well.  You're caught up in the cycle!

They break us down, but only if we let them... . eventually you get sick and tired of being sick and tired ya know?  We all have our breaking point.  Unfortunately, you have to wait to reach it... . but once you do, and start to reclaim your life you will find yourself wondering "why in the hell did I put up with that for so long?"

MCC

at MCC, I couldn't figure out how to quote, but I loved the "eventually you get sick and tired of being sick and tired" today I decided to drive by the "other" woman's house.  then I listened to a friend of mine discuss cell phone tracking, and that's when I decided enough's enough.  I have to stop my part in the cycle.  And I've been around enough to see the cycle starting.  Eventually I just get tired of it, and go back to enjoying my life.  I hate to leave him, since so many have, but I need my life to have a certain measure of peace.  So as long as I have peace, inner and outer! and I keep enough people around who are good at keeping me grounded, I can deal with the person who can't, or won't, change.

In round 2 of devaluation with my exUBPDgf, i stopped having sex with her as devaluation progressed.

She craved sex.

As she launched missile after missile at me in devaluation, my sexual desire for her decreased.

With each wave of missiles that i deflected, destroyed... . followed by another... . they atarted to make impact.

This further killed my sexual desire for her.

Dont get me wrong, my exUBPDgf is beautiful and sexy... . without end.

In middle of devaluation, she tells me in regards to my decrease in wanting sexual intimacy with her... . "You provide the d*ck. i provide the p*$$y."

She actually said that to me. Word for word.

I didnt provide the d*ck for her ever again after that.

Killed the rest of my sex drive.

She continued to launch missiles at me.

And then would ask, "So you dont want to ___ me?"

I wanted to scream.

With missiles underway... .

I was busy intercepting all those missiles.

I never answered her question.

5000+ missiles were inbound.

My defenses at that point were overwhelmed.

I dont ever want to be viewed as a sex object again.

Maybe I'm in the minority with this, but I was never a fan of the BPD sex (overall, and on most levels).


She would talk the talk (i.e., a big act), but I saw right through it & even found it amusing. And she knew it. But, she kept talking the talk, anyway. I think that frustrated her; I also think that's part of the reason why she moved onto somebody else.


I've had BPD sex, and I've had non-BPD sex. I'll take the latter any day.


I found a great quote out there which rang true to my ears:

"In the end, a Narcissistic-Borderline woman tends to make a poor lover. Even if she’s mastered a range of techniques, sex is ultimately a mechanical act devoid of true intimacy. If you view sex as simply a mechanistic, impersonal stimulus/release interaction, this may be enough. If you view sex as a medium of expression in which you share love, lust, playfulness, raw animal passion, desire, tenderness and mutual fantasies, sex with this kind of woman will never be enough. Sex becomes just another empty and dissatisfying exchange with your partner."

Mine would definitely use it as a weapon against me.  She knew she could withhold and use it to manipulate it.  When she did decide to "reward" me, it was so half-a$$ of an effort that it really started to insult me and made me wonder "why are you even bothering?"

Last I checked, it wasn't covered with gold?

Just another way she would hurt me I guess... .

MCC

Just a note on the comparison with the description of a narcissistic borderline, that is a Borderline with diagnosed traits of the narcissistic personality disorder and should not be labeled on all people with BPD... . There are many differences between different people suffering from BPD alone... . In the DSM V there are at least over 150 documented differences in diagnose alone. And if you add to that traits of other PD's and or other mental illnesses then the amount is staggering... .

There are big differences in a borderline with traits of narcissistic personality disorder, that the quote is referring to compared to the selfishness displayed in the "normal" borderline disorder. Clinically all forms of selfishness can be described as different forms of narcissism, but then again narcissism can also be a healthy trait in all people... . So one have to understand the difference in pathological narcissism compared to more or less selfishness in a person... . One could say that there is a scale of narcissism that goes from healthy narcissism through different levels of selfishness and then at the end of the spectra the pathological form of narcissism. And it is what the quote is referring to.

The pathological narcissism goes way beyond lack of empathy or inability to at times understand how other people feel so to speak... . The pathological narcissist does not really feel any emotions, but is more or less socially trained in displaying emotional behavior when needed to serve a purpose. In a way there are similarities in pathological narcissism and autism spectrum when it comes to that... .

The more purer forms of borderline disorder is about overwhelming amounts of feelings as opposed to the narcissistic lack thereof... . Both stem from extreme fear of being unlovable to some extent. But the NPD has given up on love as a whole, whereas the borderline hunger for it and at the same time fears it... .

If the sexual act seems very mechanical one can therefor suspect pathological narcissistic traits are present. But as we all can see throughout this forum when this issue is discussed there are also many examples of pw BPD pretty much only being able to feel love while having sex. So the differences are many and often big from individual to individual... . And above all, not all pw borderline fit the description of a borderline diagnosed also with pathological narcissistic traits... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

Agreed. Excellent points in your post.

There are many varieties/flavors/intensities of BPD. And this also includes comorbidity with other illnesses, of which the rate is pretty high.


The reason that quote rang so true to me, is that she was BPD, NPD & HPD. (Not to mention the drug & alcohol addiction, as well.)

It was quite a mix, with different parts showing up in different ways at different times -- or even at the same time!


Cluster B's can certainly run the gamut... .

i'm not sure whether to laugh or cry... .   i'd say that "in the end" a lot of people make poor lovers!  this problem extends way beyond BPD, NPD, or any other PD.  at least in the USA, the number of married people or people in LTRs who complain about an unsatisfying sex life is staggering, personality disordered or not.

a long standing joke among comedians/men is that as soon as they're married, their wife no longer gives them oral sex.  a long standing complaint of married women is that their husbands are selfish, mechanical, uninterested and boring lovers.

for the record, i experienced higher levels of "love, lust, playfulness, raw animal passion, desire, tenderness" with my xBPDgf (with N traits) than i ever have with any other person.  isn't one of the main reasons it's so hard to detach from these people is precisely because of the intensity and satisfaction of that kind of connection?  for me it sure was/is.

icu2

At least for me, I think the psychological/emotional connection kept me hooked longer than the sexual connection did.


I saw through her "act" when it came to sex. The verbal stuff & the physical stuff seemed... . fake.

There was no *true* intimacy or love. I found it lacking in that sense.


Although I have no firsthand experience to compare it to, I'd imagine it was much more closer to having sex with a paid prostitute -- than to making love with a fairly healthy woman who shared a true relationship with me. (Yes, I have experience with the latter, anyway, LOL.)


Hey, you're not alone, as I've heard the opposite here... that the sex was amazing/incredible/etc.

hmm, i'm beginning to wonder how much "BPD" my xBPDgf was... .   or maybe she was just an unusual manifestation of BPD b/c well, ok for me i can't have great sex without there being a great emotional intimacy.  so when i say the sex with her was the best, it's only b/c the emotional intimacy allowed it to be.  it was actually much more about the intimacy than the sex.

it was very slow and tender (when appropriate) ~ wild and intense (when appropriate).  it's like the "appropriateness" had never been more spot on with anyone else b4, if that makes sense.  she looked me in the eyes. extensively.  she was (or at seemed like) she was more "present" more 'with me" than i'd ever experienced with anyone else.

that's why i am often so torn about having ended it.  i am not always 100% sure that i made the right choice.  as some others have expressed here, there is a real nagging thought that i might have ended it with the truest love of my life.

it's also very very sad and humiliating for me to think that what I experienced as the most genuine and authentic romantic connection of my entire life was in actuality the most fake and unreal of them all.  that is a mind blower!

icu2

I think your experience is similar to many others regarding this, and for many pw BPD the only time they can handle real intimacy is in a sexual situation. And for them handling intimacy in any other situation is instead way more difficult... .

However there are many individual differences, depending on as discussed now here level of comorbidity with other disorders such as narcissism on one hand or coping strategies on the other as well as individual relationships to sexuality as a whole... .

In my personal experience first with a guy w NPD and then with a guy with BPD, the differences between them was huge!

My NPD bf was very sexually intense but not in an intimate way, except for the beginning of the relationship while he was still sort of "hunting" for me... .  And then was very attentive to what he thought or picked up on I seemed to like... . (mirroring). But once our relationship was established things changed.

Then it became not bad, but then again not particularly intimate and it was pretty much all about him, his performance, (get me what I need as fast as possible), and then his satisfaction... . And sometimes even somewhat mechanical in a way that differs from how shall I put it... . bored sex that can occur when a relationship is tired or stuck in a rut... .

He also used it more towards the end to blow off steam... . when suppressing aggression... .

My BPD guy was quite the opposite! He was very intense sexually and the intimacy level was very high! A lot of eye contact and experimental and also very attentive to me and what I liked... .

To him sex was however very exhausting emotionally, and he often experienced headaches and lack of sleep in connection with sex... . He sort of gave everything he got into that... . But it also drained him emotionally so when dysregulating he often withheld sex as a means to contain his feelings and to prevent getting too intimate... . Since intimacy triggers so badly his fear of abandonment... .

He could literarily give me mind blowing wonderful sex, and right after begin to fret I would one day leave him... .  

Confusing to say the least... . And me assuring him of the contrary helped nada... .

They represent just two people, but at the same time they were extreme opposites of one another... . So the variety is extensive... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

Dear icu2,

    You really hit the nail on the head, IMHO.  Many people here feel the sex was the greatest ever, but for me (and this will sound so ridiculous that I hesitate to type it) it was not physically different but emotionally transcendental, if you will.  I often thought that I had only one 'mystic' experience in my life and that was with her, sexually.  It was, for me, the emotional bond that was so crazily elevated beyond the normal plane of my existence (hey, I said it sounded ridiculous).

    And yes, that is why it hurts so badly that they, who we feel so strongly (and incorrrectly) had exactly the same feelings for us that we had for them, could just drop that like an empty beer can.  Even worse is the notion that this mad depth of emotion is 'true love', i.e. other r/s are chopped liver.  We won't find this in a normal r/s because a normal person doesn't mirror us like the pwBPD does.  My personal opinion is that what we feel for the pwBPD is love for the image they mirror -- ourselves, and we confuse that image with the mirror projecting it.  The love we feel so intensely is really just narcissism on our part, just as Narcissus himself actually fell in love with his image to the detriment of his life. I know that's hard to accept, but I think it may be true for many, if not all of us.  The funny thing is that once you accept this, the pwBPD just really seems to have little power anymore.  You explode the false concept of love for her and understand that you actually tapped in to the mother lode of power that actually created your personality.  I've discussed this elsewhere here and I know almost everyone feels (as I did until a short time ago) that they truly and completely loved the pwBPD, so this must be incorrect for them. If you can get over this barrier, though, you will find that the pwBPD becomes completely irrelevant very quickly.  Just sayin'... .

LT

well lao tzu i am so glad that you did type it!  doesn't sound ridiculous to me at all.  in fact, it sounds exactly like me.  we often used the word 'transcendental' to describe our experience, as well as magical, mystical, connected, one, oneness, floating, joy, bliss, etc... .   it was emotionally orgasmic.

i still can't quite wrap my head around THAT translating to me being in love with myself b/c she was intensely mirroring me    but i am thinking about it.  thank you for your great explanation.


it's kinda sick, kinda scary, like we have experienced something we were never meant to.  a pandora's box.  it blew a fuse in my mind.  will i ever be the same again?  can i?  should i?

icu2 

Musicfan... . I seriously had to see if this had been my post!  This describes my sex life with my husband to a T.  Sex = control, no doubt in my mind.  H can be pissed at the world and 10 minutes later come to bed and initiate sex.  He blames the problems in our marriage (including his "anger issues" on the fact that I don't have frequent enough sex with him. 

We had a long "discussion" several weeks ago about how awful I was making his life by not having sex with him.  When I told him that it's hard for me to want to have sex with someone I am not emotionally attached to, he told me that I needed to separate the emotions from the sex and just have sex for the pure enjoyment of having sex for the sake of "saving" our marriage and making him a happier person.  When asked what he would do to aid in this "fixing" of our marriage, he responded that it was all up to me and he was not going to make any efforts whatsoever, because he has been trying so hard for the past 3 years but I haven't been perceptive to any of his efforts.  For the record, there have basically been no efforts, at least from my perspective.

H never touches me unless it is in a sexual, groping way.  We were on a long car trip over the weekend and he wanted to hold my hand, which would have been fine except that his version of holding my hand involves having his hand between my legs groping at my crotch (with our S8 and S12 in the backseat, no less).  Then he gets mad when I push him away, and acts like I am the one with the problem.  I have told him over, and over, and over, that I don't mind if he touches me but why does it ALWAYS have to be sexual?  He never hugs me, only comes up behind me and grabs my butt or breasts while I am in the middle of cooking supper or doing something  - I think he does it because my hands are busy and I'm defenseless.  I have asked him repeatedly not to do it but again, I'm the one with the problem.  H constantly makes sexually provocative jokes, turns every comment into something sexual, grabs me in sexual ways and randomly says things like "wanna be tied up" or "have you gone 'toy' shopping yet" or "are you wearing a thong"... . I have specifically asked him not to say these things to me but he continues.  When we were dating we would drive past an attractive woman and he would say "I bet she would look great sitting on my face".  Again, asked repeatedly for him to stop because it made me really angry and upset but he always said he was "just joking" and I just needed to lighten up.  Sex has always clearly been an issue with him and I am so past done with it.

The only time H ever tells me he loves me is after we have sex. Then he wants to cuddle and be all affectionate, which makes my skin crawl.  Over the weekend I gave in to sex both Saturday and Sunday night because I didn't want to deal with him having one of his "lack of sex" rages.  After Saturday night, I didn't expect him to want it on Sunday night as well, but he started making advances as soon as we went to bed.  I tried gently moving his hand from all of the sexual locations several times and he eventually said in a snotty way, "so do you just want to go to sleep or what?"  This is code for, if you don't want sex I am going to be really pissed off at you and keep you up all night talking about how much of a prude you are and how much of a disappointment you are as a wife.  So I gave in for the sake of avoiding that argument.

Afterwards, I cried silently as H tried to cuddle up with me and have his arms and legs draped all over me.  It makes me angry and sick to admit that this is happening in my own marriage.  Worse yet is that he is clueless as to how this has affected me over the past several years. He is incapable of understanding where I am coming from - I have tried explaining it to him but he is unwilling to get it.  I was molested when I was 6 and he insists that I am the way I am because of that.  I honestly don't believe that is the case.  Sure, maybe I am more likely to feel "abused" or used because of what happened to me as a child, but I don't feel as though that has had some horrible long-term impact on me, meaning I survived that and don't dwell on it every day.  What really makes me angry is that H probably thinks that our marriage has taken a turn for the BETTER because I gave him sex 3 out of the last 6 nights.  Ugh.

My biggest fear is that I will not ever be able to have a normal sexual relationship with another man.  H even told me as much... . that he "has concerns" that if we split that I will do the same thing to another man (deprive him of sex). 

The bottom line for me is that there is absolutely NOTHING to the emotional side of our relationship.  H is incapable of having a truly emotional tie to anyone.  He doesn't even know what to do to try and get that.  Because of that, our sex life is basically non-existent.  I have told him that our sexual needs are different and maybe it would be best if we split and found others who were more in line with our personal needs (which is when he told me I would ruin it for all future relationships as well). 

Hi again and very interesting post.

Hi to javamom

I am so sorry you are going through this with your husband, it really hurts, and invades all your personal boundaries when dealing with this in your partner. More so, when like you say, he takes no emotional responsibility for why you might have begun feeling estranged from him sexually, infact he takes no responsibility at all for anything by the sound of it.

I am guessing here that if you brought up the idea of therapy together and individually, he would scoff that off?

At any rate, you are right to feel the way you do about this, and don't let him coerce or manipulate you into feeling any different. It sounds like he doesn't have much respect for women at all the way he carries on sexually, especially in front of your children too. I am guessing, after experiencing sexual abuse, that this would be all the more confronting for you too. So sorry. Being sexually abused as a young child really sucks, and it messes around with your sexuality for ever. Not to mention, we end up attracting partners who sexually abuse us more!

I guess until we have dealt with the core issues it produced in us, that will be our path, I am hoping I can begin to really heal now, as I too was sexually abused by my best friends older brother at the age of 8. He had been psychologically/emotionally and sexually abusing me the whole time his younger sister and I were friends, and he got away with it too. Once that horrible day happened, (the final straw and the worst ever) there was a confrontation in my friends room, with her parents and brother. When it came out what he had done to me, he began raging, picked up a coffee table, and threw it at his (adopted) Mother's leg. She had bad varicose veins, and the table hitting her leg, must have ruptured one of them, so she was rushed off to hospital. The brother, (then 14 but very tall and strong) achieved what he set out to do, draw the focus away from what he had done, by creating an emergency. After that, I was not invited back to their house, and they moved away to the other side of town. I am guessing my friend was instructed to stay away from me then.

It was never resolved adequately, and I didn't start to come to terms with it, until I was in my early 20's, when the realisation began to hit me. Of course, this didn't stop me being affected by it, and during my 30's, I began to hit back at men a little, as a single woman. I'm not saying I did really nasty stuff, just that I wanted to use them the way they often made women feel, and it worked too. But I didn't like myself very much, and eventually I came to terms with the fact that I was really only hurting myself more!

I'm not sure what your experience has been in life when single, (and how you dealt with the pain of that abuse) but it seems you are dealing with the pain of it all over again, in your marriage. Can you access therapy for yourself if your husband won't attend? Have you considered this?

Please do, as I am not sure what resources for free are available in your country, but there are some very good ones here. The internet is a good place to look.

Take all that you can, and need, so you can continue to have your feelings/pain validated, since it certainly seems that your partner is not willing to respect how you are feeling about this or even obey your boundaries.

With BP (in your partner) as an issue, it must be making things that much harder for you again. My best wishes for resolving your situation... .

My recent exuBP partner sexually abused me too, and just the same, in the early days, he thought nothing of provoking nasty horrible fights, and then like magic, wanting to go to bed and make up! If I (rarely) wasn't up to it emotionally, he would turn on me, but then even when I did, he could turn on me minutes after, provoking me again, and justify his actions over something 'I had done' to hurt him! Maddening and so painful... .

Even at times threatening me if I didn't feel like it, that he would find another woman to meet his 'needs', then he would turn around, (just like that split person they are) and make out he was a big sexual prude, that it wasn't ever that important to him, and he could take it or leave it. Even accusing me of treating him like a booty call, once he stopped living with me, (too violent and unpredictable to live with) and returned to sponge off his elderly parents.

The person I was with before I met BP was exactly the same, but worse in some ways. We were together for 2 years, and he had been cheating on his wife a large part of their marriage, (of course he felt justified too since she felt estranged from him). He did not tell me this at first, but I had always suspected this, if anything, he told me the biggest pack of lies ever, and it wasn't the first time I had been lied to and set up by a married man either. That made it all the more disgusting to me.

God, I could go on and on, but I won't.

Just that my heart goes out to you, I know you are being manipulated into taking the blame here. Please don't believe it!

regarding sex and/or emotional intimacy, i think i may be a rare case of being right in the middle on this. i see for many people that the BPDx seemed to be the best sex in their lives and then for others it seemed mechanical and fake after a while. Also for me regarding "love" of intimacy, I've felt the same degree of love and passion from other healthy women... . but unfortunately for me my exBPD got to me right when i wanted to settle down...

it's hard really for me to remember specifically, but to me the sex was simply "great"--great because i loved this person and was really attracted to her. but i've had "better" sex before and after her, with women i truly enjoyed and respected (some of whom i loved). i'm sure my ex perhaps used sex to control me, etc., but i was unaware of it. there's only two things i can think of that were weird--early on in the r/s we did something in bed and it was great... . but then after that it never happened again. it wasn't a big deal to me that it never happened again but at any rate i'm thinking she just used that early on in the r/s to try to fool me into thinking she was freakier than she actually was.

the only other experience that comes to mind is one time that i didn't want to have sex with her--and i forget specifics but i know it's because she was being so damn cruel to me for days. well, when i said i wasn't in the mood, she was **pissed** that i would turn her down; and this just made me want it less. she was incredibly selfish, i would try so many things to keep our sex life fun and active but the one time i didn't want it b/c of her cruelty she just piled on more.

and, i totally agree with a couple other posters on here regarding the initial question about BPDs not crossing the boundary of saying that sex with you was bad--i'm sure my ex would tell other men that sex with me was bad. i don't know this for sure but i'm just saying that this is in her evil nature. i distinctly remember her telling me before our (only) fake-recycle, when she was trying to reel me back in about a guy she was dating. her words out of the blue "... and, i don't want to give you too much info, but sex with Otherguy just isn't that great. He just isn't... . attentive... . ". This was about control for her, IMO. At this point she wanted to pave the path to reel me back in... . who knows really though. But I don't doubt for a second that she capable of trashing our sexual r/s to others this is someone who lacks all integrity and honesty once you reach the hater phase.

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