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Continued from Apology-I... .


I know you weren't trying to - I appreciate yours and everyone else's words.

I have cried.  I do cry.  A lot.

But everything I wrote in the post above - it just eats at me.  Constantly.

And I'm not crying for my innocence - I'm crying for how far I've strayed, the knowledge of the horrible things I can do to someone I love that I never would have imagined, the loss of so much - because of me.

Oh, sheepdog, I'm so sorry you're going through this, sweetie. Truly. You don't deserve so have to struggle so hard. Your true self is still in here, still waiting for you to find her again - and you will.

I meant that right now you are paralyzed in fearing the reactions you might receive. You fear rejection from your husband. You fear judgment from a religious figure. You fear that your friends will condemn you, as you have condemned yourself. You are avoiding all of these people, in one way or another, based on what you imagine their reactions will be. It is not reality that you are living in, but a terrible world created in your mind. It is SO so hard to trust others when we don't trust ourselves. I understand that completely. But what if the key to learning to trust yourself is to take a leap of faith and trust some of those around you? Not everyone is worthy of trust, but many people are. I think you may need to reach out to see what the reaction will actually be rather than pre-judging others - or avoiding them because you fear what might happen. I have been forgiven for many things by those I have harmed - things that I could not forgive myself for. I had to accept that some others are just better persons than I, more capable of forgiveness - I am working on catching up and living to the standard that they set, because it is a much nicer space to live in.

sheepdog,


It is good you are crying.  That is a good sign.  I cry, too, sometimes I cry very hard.  There is not anything wrong with you.  You were doing the best you knew how.  You were probably deceived to some extent, and maybe not intentionally.  It's the nature of the illness of BPD.  I'm sure you had feelings for him.  I'm glad you are still with your husband, and I believe you will make peace there in time.  You are only human, as we all are.  We stumble along the best we can.  Keep on going... .

Phoenix

sheepdog, it's good that you are talking through this difficult situation. i wonder though, perhaps it's easier and less scary for you to call yourself bad names, to try and punish yourself, than it is to come out and tell the truth? it's not that i'm saying you should just say everything to your husband all at once without proper planning, but it seems that you are holding yourself captive by living in a lie. and perhaps it's easier to call yourself a bad person than to take steps to be a truthful person.

the letter that the exBPD has of yours, sounds like he's holding it over your head for blackmail. so mean, and manipulative. it sounds like the greatest fear would be your husband finding out the contents of this letter? what if you could first show this letter or talk about **all** of it with your therapist, no holds barred. also talk about all of it with some religious figure that you have respect for. in this way you can get a sense for how someone might react, and recalibrate yourself and fears about discussing it. and then, over time, put together a plan to tell your husband what's in the letter... . maybe a little bit at a time. let him know that you are scared to tell him, that you love him, and want him to know all of you. perhaps you can put together a plan to slowly let out all of the truth to the people in your life that truly have love for you--your therapist, religious consult, and finally, your husband.

the strength you've shown by not getting fully enmeshed with this pwBPD, and by having no contact for so long is great. and what it's uncovered is that you have some ideas that you've kept inside and don't feel comfortable discussing with any one. ok, so you made a "mistake?" and told a pwBPD--take this as a blessing that you were finally about to get this truth out of yourself. but, you gave it to the wrong person, perhaps the first time. now speak this truth to those who really love you--they deserve to know, what's more: you deserve the peace of mind!

i always believe that it's only a matter of time before all of the truth eventually comes to light. in this case, assume that at some point, everything you are hiding will be known by everyone--you have no control over this--but you do have control over how this truth comes out. it can come from you, from your strength and integrity, the same strength that allowed you to cut off the pwBPD (good for you!  :)). you don't have to wait for it to come out from the wrong source.

make sure that you aren't using self degradation to sidestep the difficult work of taking ownership of your truth.

i'm confident you have the strength and loving community to bring this all out, at your own pace and to the right people at the right time. hoping you know this comes from a place of respect and love!  |iiii

Thank you, everyone.  I really appreciate you so much more than you know.  You have no idea.

As far as the letter, it's not exactly a letter.  Way back in the first couple months when things got physical, I wanted to save some of the texts he had sent me.  They were so loving and kind.  So I typed them up and emailed them to him.  He was supposed to print it out and put it in an envelope with some poems, etc. he had written me.  Except he never did.  I asked for them last year and he said his printer wasn't working and I asked him to email them back to me and he acted shocked and said that was too risky.  I know he had them last summer and I'm sure he still does now.  I can't really remember what was in them - a few I do and they would hurt my husband deeply but the rest I don't remember.  I haven't seen them for three years.  And BPD and I haven't spoken in ten months.

I have been doing a lot of reading on whether to tell and it seems divided.  Even my therapist at first was like 'you have to tell' but the last time I asked her she said, 'not necessarily.'

I am trying to figure out what my reasons for telling would be... . to make ME feel better or to clear the slate.  Ironically, I told BPD on more than one occasion that I wanted to tell and he said it would kill my husband and I shouldn't do it.

And then all of this:

-As I already mentioned in a post on this thread:  My husband is a photographer and when BPD moved in to his new place, we blew up one of my husband's photos and gave it to him.  Why did I do that?  It gives me so much anger that I did that.  What the hell is wrong with me?  And it gives me SO much anger that that beautiful, innocent photo is hanging in BPDs apartment.  I freaking hate it.

-The fact that we took BPD home with us twice.  He met our families.  He slept in my husband's childhood bed in his childhood home.  Yes, while he and I were physical.  The fact that he met my now-deceased grandmother and ate with my family.

-The fact that HE (BPD) knows.  Makes me want to scream.

-The fact that he supposedly had no photos of anything so I made him two photo albums with all of the fun stuff we'd done.  The fact that my husband, me, our families are all over those photo albums.

-The fact that sometimes I think BPD was a sociopath and that he is probably thinking my husband is a chump.

-All of the holidays and meals we shared.

-We went on a mini vacation with my husband, my sister-in-law, just to get out of town.  My s-I-l was going through a bad divorce and of course BPD was separated so we all went together and since we don't have much money any of us we got one room with two queen beds.  And we had me sleep with my s-I-l so she wouldn't have to sleep with a man she wasn't dating.  And yes my husband and BPD slept in the same bed.

He is going to feel so betrayed and small and I don't blame him one bit.

So many of you have talked to me about how hard on myself I am and how I don't forgive myself.  Let me turn the tables.  If your spouse did what I did, would you forgive them?  

Modified to add:  I just stumbled across the thread on this board, "Is It Okay for a Non to Have an Extramarital Affair?".  SO hard to read and I think the answer to my question above is no and I completely get that. 

  Hi, sheepdog.

The first thing I would like to do is commend you for your honesty. It is hard to be truthful when we are afraid it will mean others will not like us anymore. I think the fact that you are working to be honest with yourself and with us here is a really good sign that you have what it takes to make it through this.

Secondly, I can relate to a lot of what you are feeling. Once upon a time, I was in a situation not terribly different from yours. Coming clean about my unfaithfulness was very difficult because I had to go head-to-head against one of my biggest fears, which was the belief that my DH would eventually find out I'm not actually lovable and would leave me once he saw what a horrible person I was. It was a huge risk. But I did it because I came clean in confession and my priest said I needed to tell DH. DH was hurt of course but he did forgive me, and we have worked through it and built an even better life together. Going through the hard work of therapy was crucial because I needed to challenge the beliefs I had about myself, ones that came from trying to cope with abusive parents and that were so deeply ingrained that I had trouble imagining anything else could be true. You are doing some of that hard work right now.

I agree that you seem to be dealing with some very deep shame, and it is good that you are willing to take a look at that. This statement from the first page of the thread stood out to me:


What do you think is different about you? How come none of the rest of us has to be held to such an impossible standard? Do you think you are the only person on the face of the planet who deserves to go to hell for making this mistake?

Once upon a time, I thought that way. I thought God could forgive anyone else, but not me. Making a mistake--even a tiny mistake--in my mother's house might bring down her terrifying wrath upon me. I was not allowed to make mistakes. I was supposed to know better, to read her mind, and achieve perfection instantly in all things. She used my faith to shame and manipulate me. Lots of false beliefs crept in because of what I learned from her. I developed an understanding that God was like my mother. Parental relationships are supposed to model unconditional love, but my parents definitely didn't do that, so my understanding of God was naturally limited by that. I didn't understand that grace is for me, too. To a child, abuse from a parent can be indistinguishable from annihilation. My basic expectation was that if I wasn't perfect, I would be killed for it. And that is what I believed in my faith growing up, too (and maybe why you are so afraid you are going to hell for this). I think it is the source of my panic attacks--more than once I seriously thought I was about to die.

Because you seem to be sharing from a Judeo-Christian perspective, here is what I believe now. You may take this paragraph or leave it. The record is pretty clear that Christ Jesus is incredibly merciful and loving. There is nothing you have done that He hasn't seen and forgiven hundreds and thousands of times before. You haven't come up with something that He's not strong enough to handle. Some of the most famous saints did things much worse than you. He suffered and died even knowing ahead of time all the choices you would make in your life, and he still thought you were worth it. There is absolutely nothing you could ever do that would stop God from loving you. Divine love isn't earned, and it isn't withheld. It is there whether we like it or not. We are invited to participate in the love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit even though none of us is really worthy or capable of doing so on our own. When we are open to accepting God's love, we can experience joy, even through the tears of repentance. When we choose to shut that love out, we feel torture. I think heaven and hell are a choice we make here and now every day, not  something some angry guy with a lightning bolt taunts us with to manipulate us. I think it's up to you whether you want to allow God to forgive you or not. Because if you want to be forgiven, if you want to be healed, those things are his gift to you as much as they are to any one of us. But if you don't want those things, he will never force them upon you. 

Again, I want to give you a big  |iiii for your honesty. I know this is hard. And I think there is probably still some very hard work ahead for you. But whatever happens, I know you can get through it, and God will not abandon you. Neither will we. You are not going through this alone.

Wishing you peace,

PF

My uBPDexh had multiple affairs, over the course of a few years (at least that I know). Some of the women were ones we socialized with, in groups. They came to parties I hosted at my house. Some were ex's coworkers, so we saw them at social events. Some of these women I was friends with on Facebook (none were really my friends). So, in some ways I feel I have been in your husband's shoes. I found out about that affairs because my best friend saw my ex out with another girl. When I confronted, he lied, lied, lied. I had been have doubts about his faithfulness, and every time I brought it up, it became my fault that I didn't trust him. True crazy making.

It hurt to find out the truth. Most of what I know I have found out from other people and pieces of the puzzle I have put together. Ex only once admitted he had an affair, and only with one of the woman. In fact, he was distraught that my grounds for divorce was adultery.

Even after filing for divorce, I still wanted to try to work it out, and I made a list of what I would need from him. One was complete honesty and transparency. I need to know what had happened, and a guarantee that  his actions wouldn't be secretive in the future. I also need him to end the affairs and contact with these women. He could not give this to me, so I needed a divorce.

In the end, where I thought an affair would be the deal breaker in my marriage, it was actually the lying that was the deal breaker. I could've recovered from an affair. I couldn't recover from be continuously lied too. Now, I know your situation is different because it was a one time affair, that has ended. I still just wonder if your on going guilt is about the lies. Maybe you still feel you are being dishonest with your husband? I still think I would have been more devastated to learn years later about an affair that was kept secret. Either way it hurts, but for me, knowing someone you love can keep such secrets from you for so long hurts even more.

Maybe revealing the truth does seem selfish (is it selfish because you want to protect yourself or your husband?). But, I think the deciding point is this: Is your marriage going to be ruined by the secret (i.e. will you beat yourself up and never be "normal" again because of the guilt) or ruined by the truth? In your mind, have your reached the point where moving forward in either direction MAY end your marriage? If so, then which way can you live with and say you tried your best? Since you asked, my opinion (as a spouse who has been cheated on) is that your husband deserves to know and be part of the decision of where your marriage is headed.

sheepdog, i was just reading another post, which had a link to a TED Talk on Shame and Guilt. and then something clicked, and rereading my post above i realize this was just the idea i was trying to express: Guilt v. Shame

Shame = feeling bad thoughts about yourself -- for example "I am bad", "I am not strong enough", "I am evil"

Guilt = feeling bad about your behaviors -- "I shouldn't have acted that way", "I shouldn't have lied", "I should have resisted this person"

I think it's important to look at Shame as our bodies way of alerting us that we need to process some Guilt. Shame should not be a state you stay in, it is the pathway to healthy Guilt. Reading posts I feel many are addressing the Shame you feel and confronting it with the Truth--you are not evil, you are not below forgiveness--yet I feel it's equally important to not pander to Shame; to realize that this shame is there to alert you to start feeling healthy Guilt.

Shame is not the truth--you are not bad... . but your behaviors are. And why this distinction is so important is because there is no power to change the Shame, because it is a lie. But you have all the powers bestowed to you to change your Guilt. Guilt is the Truth. You don't need to change a lie about yourself; you can use healthy Guilt to change your behaviors.

So, this is what i feel i meant about "taking ownership of your truth". Through the great suggestions of others here, realize Shame for the lie that it is. Then allow yourself to see the Guilt you feel as the truth of your behavior-- then realize that you have full power and the strength to change your behaviors.

www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame.html

My spouse has had more than one affair. I recognize much of my own story in what Free One has related above. It's the lying that got to me, not the affairs. The affairs I can forgive, but the continued lying is awful. An affair I can see as being moments of weakness, or attraction to someone who is a novelty, or a need to explore - all kinds of things, really. But the lies... . Well, that is something he is doing to ME. It is about ME. As if I don't deserve the truth. Like I am some kind of idiot and won't realize something is amiss. Like I'm not grown up enough to handle the truth and so he's going to edit it for me. It's infuriating and insulting and degrading (the lies, I mean). Personally I will always prefer having the truth. I never again want to be the last to know. I feel ill just thinking about how other people knew and were talking behind my back while I tottered on, oblivious to it all. Ugh! THAT is what made me feel small and betrayed - knowing my H let others know more than I did. Knowing that he put others' feelings, his own feelings, ahead of mine - even after he realized how bad it was. His thought was to save himself rather than deal with me.

This doesn't mean I think you need to tell your H if you think it would do more harm than good BUT, if you do tell him, you need to be prepared for a full confession. Brutal honesty. The worst things in the world are the things I make up in my own mind - the truth is always less bad than what I can come up with when left to my imagination. And if your H ever suspects that something is wrong, please don't lie about it, because that just makes it worse. If it isn't going to stay a forever secret, then you voluntarily offering the information before he suspects will likely go a long way to his being able to forgive (at least that's how it is with me - obviously I can't speak for your H).

I think the others here have also offered some great insight. YOU are not a bad person. What happened was wrong. Mistakes were made. You can't take it all back. But you can make the future better and part of that process is learning to forgive yourself and to accept forgiveness from others.

I remember the first time my H had an affair, he tried to end our r/s afterward by telling me that I couldn't forgive him so he had to leave me. I was willing for forgive but he wasn't willing to let go of his own shame so that we could be together. That made me so angry! He was the one who messed up - and now he was telling me it was over because HE couldn't get past it? How dare he tell me what I could or couldn't forgive? I can't even explain how upset I was. I told him he OWED it to me to get over it. I know that's not how it works, but that's how I felt. Long story short - he cheated and I was the one who had to do all the work to convince HIM to stay. I think that might have been the worst part of it, aside from the lies. Just my perspective, but perhaps it's a different angle to consider?

Dear SheepDog,

I have been off the boards for along while due to a situation in my family. One of my daughters has had serious health issues and I my energies were directed toward her healing and taking care of grandchildren plus working.

I have read what your posts and would like to answer.

My exH was unfaithful from the beginning of our marriage, it took me along while to understand he was unfaithful.

At first, when all was disclosed and I read his emails and love letters to another woman, my co-worker, my heart was shattered. The reality is this-he has never apologized in any manner that would warrant my forgiveness. His denial and minimization of the affair is what hurt... . more than the affair in and of itself. Our marriage ended due to his denial and minimization of his actions. Had he the ability to comprehend how his affair hurt me and had he the ability to apologize and attend to our relationship... . I would have been able to get past it.

We have been divorced now for almost seven years. Recently, he discussed with me having been sexually abused as a child... . when he did, and he did this without apology of his affair, something inside of me shifted. I looked at him with compassion, a compassion I had not felt toward him in many years.

The tragic part is knowing this much, he does not treat himself with compassion. He is very cruel to himself and lives with toxic shame. Yet, he has not figured out how much he hurt me.

There is such a difference between someone who breaks their marriage vows and expresses no remorse for their actions or ever gains insight as to why they did what they did and continues on their dysfunctional dance, and someone who realizes how much they hurt themselves and their partner and has the courage to face themselves and their life history.

You have that courage and beauty inside you, it is your gift.

C

I agree with this.

I think the point raised about honesty and transparency is important.

In the beginning I thought I had a wonderful marriage because we never fought. Truth is we were just never honest. We stuffed resentments and avoided confrontation and played like everything was fine, unless we were being passive-agressive. I had a black-and-white  my-issues and deep toxic shame, and stuck DH on a pedestal while beating myself up. The truth is, we both have flaws, we both make mistakes, we both needed help learning to communicate our needs and feelings. My infidelity wasn't just because I was a horrible crazy person with no boundaries or gratitude or self-control who would risk her children's happiness and jeopardize a perfect marriage because she didn't deserve it (this is how I talked to myself back then). It was also because my "perfect" marriage had some pretty major weaknesses, and those weren't all my fault. It took both of us working together to find those and strengthen them. My unfaithfulness was a symptom of deeper problems, not just in my own thoughts and attitudes, but also in the way my DH and I managed our r/s. If this particular symptom hadn't shown up, it would have been something else.

You are doing some hard work right now. I agree that your courage is a beautiful gift. You will survive this and whatever comes next.

PF

i just ran across this quote and thought of this thread:

Thank you SO much to all of you.  Besides my therapist, who I can't afford to see weakly, I only have the people on this board to talk to.  I feel so lost alone and crazy much of the time.

At my last therapy session, my therapist said what many of you are saying.  But I am so *strong* on what I am feeling.  Some of you who shared your experiences of your spouse being unfaithful mentioned he/she was borderline.  My therapist talked about 12 step programs.  Let me preface this by saying that I am so very sorry that any of you were cheated on.  I hope I don't botch up what I'm about to say.  But as I told her, if you are borderline or an alcoholic or have a drug addiction, then you have a *reason* for your awful behavior.  There is a reason you do/did what you do/did.  I have no excuse.  I am not mentally ill and from what I've read here and from my own experience with BPD, cheating is usually par for the course.  And when you are stoned or drunk constantly, you are not in your right mind.

I am not mentally ill (though my therapist said I have 'the pathology of codependency big-time).

I am not a drinker or a drug user.

I have no excuse. 

I would expect God to forgive someone who is sick in the head or who was an alcoholic who now sees what they did.

I have no excuse.  If this had been a one-night stand, maybe I could forgive myself.  But our physical relationship lasted a year or so.  No, we never had sex but our physical-ness was vey physical and besides, I am of the mindset that if you kiss someone other than your spouse that you are cheating (my husband feels the same way).

I don't know why I am being called courageous.  That is not something I would say I am.  Maybe back when things were horrible between me and BPD but now, no.

My therapist does not want me to tell my husband yet.  She wants me to be able to know the answer to 'why did I take up with BPD and lose myself and go against my core values?' 

I see her point but I am so very confused with this process and I think she felt (actually I told her) my frustration last time.  I am trying to figure out why but I don't know why.  She wants us to figure that out, then deal with husband, then go to why I am a raging codependent and the possible sexual abuse.  I don't know.  Doesn't one have to maybe do with the other?

She said I need to:

-get right with myself

-get right with God

-get right with my husband

She wants me to start reading the codependency book.  She wants me to see that a 100% codependent and a raging borderline is the 'perfect match' - for him.

Just feel lost and like a hamster on a wheel with all of this... . spinning, spinning, spinning and getting nowhere.


C12P21 - I hope things are better now with your family.   

goldylamont - that quote is beautiful and I am going to let it sink in and try to grab hold of it.   

Your childhood and unmet emotional needs have everything to do with your vulnerability in this relationship. It is clear as day to me, and seems just as valid a defense as any PD could be. You seem to be thinking in black-and-white, making sure you are always "bad." Has this always been how you look at yourself?

Your T seems to have a good plan mapped out. Take a step at a time.

PF

A 'reason' and an 'excuse' are not the same thing. We ALL have reasons for everything we do - otherwise we wouldn't do them! A mental illness or an addiction (also a type of mental illness) is just another set of reasons, not an excuse. An excuse makes things all right, it justifies. It excuses the actor. A reason is just that - an explanation. It doesn't make it right. What the cheating pwBPD, or person with addiction issues, has is only a set of pre-defined and easy to label reasons. You have reasons too, Sheepdog - reasons that are just as valid as any other persons' reasons, ill or not. So what if your reasons don't have a convenient label attached? That does not make them less valid, nor does it make you less of a person, or less deserving of forgiveness. Sometimes our past experiences and personal histories just brew a perfect storm to cumulate in a crisis. We react poorly. We realize it and work to change, we work to ensure it never happens again - and these things are what make us deserving of forgiveness. All of the perfectly labelled reasons/justifications in the world do not entitle a person to forgiveness. YOU Sheepdog are the perfect candidate to be forgiven. And you are - you just don't believe it. You are determined to NOT be forgiven (except that you don't really get a choice with God - He forgives whether you believe it or not, whether you want to be forgiven or not, whether you accept it or not).

The codependency work might be very helpful to you. If that is a major part of your personal interaction framework, and your T seems to believe it is (she's probably right), then that is very much like an addiction or mental illness. It is a distorted way of living/thinking and it affects the ability to make healthy decisions. It is a reason you might want to explore.

Have you any further thoughts re speaking with a religious figure? Your T sounds like she is working hard to help you, but perhaps a another opinion, another voice, might help you to sort out some of your spinning thoughts. Just thinking that sometimes a fresh perspective opens doors in the mind.

Take care, Sheepdog. You're going to get there! We see your courage in your determination to improve, to move forward, despite how much it hurts you. You're braver than you think!

Reasons. Excuses. Whatever you call them, they aren't what you need.

One thing I learned here on bpdfamily.com was that when I was accused of something, don't JADE. Don't justify, argue, defend, or explain it. All of those things are invalidating, and none of them change what you did OR what you are accused of. I learned this in the context of how to relate to a pwBPD, but it applies in a much larger context than that.

JADE-ing when a healthy person is upset with you doesn't help either, they just aren't likely to go into a fully dysregulated rage at you over it.

Taking it one step further, it doesn't help to JADE to yourself over things you regret. And what you are doing is talking about excuses or reasons that you don't have.

What works is compassion and forgiveness.


I believe that God has already forgiven you, and would forgive you if you did the same thing and worse a thousand times over. I do not believe there are any limits to what God can, will, and does forgive.

I don't know whether you will find it easier to start by forgiving yourself, or to start by accepting God's forgiveness first.

I'll go with your T's advice to work things out with yourself and with God before you work on things with your H.

 

  Sheeps

(You have mentioned religion, and I have understood it to be in the Christian context, so forgive me if I'm wrong on that.)

Isn't the beauty of God and the Grace of God that He forgives all who seek forgiveness? We are all entitled to it. We all deserve it. No one is perfect. NO ONE.

I would urge you to learn more about codependency. Melody Beattie's books are very helpful, as is a 12-step program. Please don't take this to mean there is something "wrong" or "broken" about you. Codependency is a result of learning dysfunctional coping skills, behaviors and habits. Overcoming it is just a matter of identifying these areas and replacing them with more effective skills.

I disagree with the cat (this may be a first!) - I think you may need the reasons. And there are always reasons, complex as they may be. But these aren't for your H, or anyone else, but for yourself. Sometimes it is very difficult to forgive ourselves if we can't understand ourselves. (Although I'm sure there are those who can and do, so don't this as my saying it's the only way to do it!) I definitely agree that you need compassion and forgiveness. So I suppose the question then is just what do you need to get yourself there?

Good point about JADEing. It's not helpful. And I think that JADEing behaviour is much of what previous posts were commenting on re being hurt by having been cheated on. At least for me, the cheating wasn't anywhere near so hurtful as the JADEing that followed.

Sheepdog,

I would call it being human or part of the human condition.  No one is perfect, nor can we be.  You did it because you decided to!  It made you feel uncomfortable later on, so it's your decision as to whether you want to learn from this part of your life or not.  I've found that if I do not learn the lesson, I will repeat it. 

What is the lesson, Sheepdog?  Addictions aside we are all capable of making decisions that we might later regret in some fashion.  But that does not mean we are 'bad' people.  It doesn't mean anything, really.  What are you going to do differently today?  Forget about the past.



Phoenix.Rising

  to you sheepdog.

One of the things that broke my heart the worst in my marriage is realizing that N/BPDxh would never forgive. He forgave nothing. Every mistake, every problem, every negative thing added up, and just kept building, until all those mistakes and errors were a huge mountain. If you don't forgive, I don't know how you can grow. I don't know how you can feel true, deep, real love. For yourself and others.

Did you do something wrong? Yes.

Are you a bad person? No.

Was your action forgivable? Yes.

Will your husband forgive you? Unknown.

Can you forgive yourself? Unknown. 

Will God forgive you? By my definition of God, yes. Wholeheartedly.

What people here are trying to tell you is that your forgiveness of yourself, and your love for yourself, is possible. But you have to let it in. You have to believe in it more than the mistake.

Sheepdog,

You were in an abusive relationship with a man who is BPD. Focusing on whether you are good or bad, right or wrong, responsible or not responsible, is actually part of the abuse.  

If you want to heal from this, you have to let go of the good/bad thing. You have to focus on why you believed in him.

You have been given very good advice and encouragement. I want to add this... . you have courage because you are facing YOURSELF. Remember the poem I posted awhile back about the Red Road? Our greatest enemy is ourselves... . and you are facing you. 

1 Corinthians 13:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

You have gone through an ordeal that has shaken the foundation and core of what you know to be true about yourself and now you are facing another truth-that you are human and flawed and did something that has caused you considerable pain. Your courageous act is your willingness to comprehend how this occurred, and the "whys" and the why is probably rooted in childhood.   

I hope this helps... .

English Revised Version (ERV)

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

Definitions for 1 Corinthians 13:11

Became - Was exactly suited for; was fitting.

Clarke's Commentary on 1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child - This future state of blessedness is as far beyond the utmost perfection that can be attained in this world, as our adult state of Christianity is above our state of natural infancy, in which we understand only as children understand; speak only a few broken articulate words, and reason only as children reason; having few ideas, little knowledge but what may be called mere instinct, and that much less perfect than the instinct of the brute creation; and having no experience. But when we became men-adults, having gained much knowledge of men and things, we spoke and reasoned more correctly, having left off all the manners and habits of our childhood.

Barnes' Notes on 1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child - The idea here is, that the knowledge which we now have, compared with that which we shall have in heaven, is like that which is possessed in infancy compared with that we have in manhood; and that as, when we advance in years, we lay aside, as unworthy of our attention, the views, feelings, and plans which we had in boyhood, and which we then esteemed to be of so great importance, so, when we reach heaven, we shall lay aside the views, feelings, and plans which we have in this life, and which we now esteem so wise and so valuable. The word "child" here (νήπιος nēpios) denotes properly a baby, an infant, though without any definable limitation of age. It refers to the first periods of existence; before the period which we denominate boyhood, or youth. Paul here refers to a period when he could "speak," though evidently a period when his speech was scarcely intelligible - when he first began to articulate.

I spake as a child - Just beginning to articulate, in a broken and most imperfect manner. The idea here is, that our knowledge at present, compared with the knowledge of heaven, is like the broken and scarcely intelligible efforts of a child to speak compared with the power of utterance in manhood.

I understood as a child - My understanding was feeble and imperfect. I had narrow and imperfect views of things. I knew little. I fixed my attention on objects which I now see to be of little value. I acquired knowledge which has vanished, or which has sunk in the superior intelligence of riper years. "I was affected as a child. I was thrown into a transport of joy or grief on the slightest occasions, which manly reason taught me to despise" - Doddridge.

I thought as a child - Margin, "Reasoned." The word may mean either. I thought, argued, reasoned in a weak and inconclusive manner. My thoughts, and plans, and argumentations were puerile, and such as I now see to be short-sighted and erroneous. Thus, it will be with our thoughts compared to heaven. There will be, doubtless, as much difference between our present knowledge, and plans, and views, and those which we shall have in heaven, as there is between the plans and views of a child and those of a man. Just before his death, Sir Isaac Newton made this remark: "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself by now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, while the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me" - Brewster's Life of Newton, pp. 300, 301. Ed. New York, 1832.

Wesley's Notes on 1 Corinthians 13:11

13:11 In our present state we are mere infants in point of knowledge, compared to what we shall be hereafter. I put away childish things - Of my own accord, willingly, without trouble

Remember when you felt so confused about the events as they happened, that you were not really all there? I often think of those confused moments or disassociation, as the little girl inside of me learning a lesson that was not taught well in childhood. You were vulnerable and being mistreated by a predator and you became trapped in his snare. Now that you are evaluating your behavior and the complexities of what happened and its aftermath... . you are no longer experiencing the events as a child but as an adult woman that is appalled. This takes great courage.

C

I'm sitting here crying.  I have had the worse three days.  I really just wish I could be swallowed up.

I don't think that I am JADE'ing.  Unless I'm misunderstanding.

I am not trying to justify - nothing could justify it.

Same with argue.

I am definitely not trying to defend it.

I guess, though, I am trying to explain it.

I don't know if that's the wrong thing to do. 

I don't KNOW that ANYTHING happened in my childhood.  I don't KNOW that.  So I have to go on this as something I did.

C12P21 - you are so right.  When I was with him, I felt I was keeping him alive, I felt loved and cherished... . for a while.  Then things started focusing a bit for me but I was so scared.  It was easier when we worked together but weren't speaking.  I tried to focus on me, help myself.  Then the year when nothing physical was going on I really started asking questions and he was not so nice to me but I also was part of that.  The first few months of this year, I guess I was expecting him to come back, to come around.  Then I knew he wasn't going to.  And that I no longer wanted him to.

That's when I really looked around and saw what a complete muck I've made out of my life.  And was and am appalled.  I have felt like that since the year he and I were friends but not physical.  I told him once that I wished I would be swallowed up or that I wished a gunman would shoot - just me- I know you're thinking I'm crazy.  I'm not.  Maybe I am.  I just don't know.  I am so lost.

I was literally shaking this morning when I called the office of my church to get the email address of a priest so I could make a confession.  I emailed him saying I need spiritual guidance and that I wanted to make a confession and just got this response:

"The only time I would have is tomorrow around midday, say 11 or 11:30.  The office is closed on Thursday and Friday, and I will be away on vacation the following week.  If that does not fit with your schedule, I am sure one of the other priests would be able to meet with you.

Thanks,"

And I just started shaking thinking what I have to say and then I started reading into his email.  I felt like it wasn't very warm (especially the closing) so I am talking myself into waiting or finding someone else. 

I am so scared.

I can't thank you enough for all of your comments.  But I need to clarify.

I was not raped by him and what you are forgetting is that after a while, I did enjoy it.  Actually, wanted it.  I felt practically a hum when he was around and I wanted nothing more than for him to touch me and hold me.  I told him I loved him.

All of this just makes me shake now and makes me want to vomit.

No, I did not act with malice toward my husband based on MaybeSo's definition.  But I *was* aware of what I was doing during the time BPD and I were together and it brought me much anguish - but not enough to stop it right away.  And that I think says a lot.

MaybeSo - your words about creating distance are so true.

Arabella - this sentence that you wrote so tripped me up:  Sheep - your reactions and ongoing trauma are WAY beyond what a person normally feels after having a simple affair.

Are they way beyond?  I don't really know.  How would a normal person feel about this?  (And I am outright saying I am probably not normal.)  And I would not define this ever as a 'simple affair.'  I'm not being argumentative.  But I think any affair is pretty huge and explosive and awful.

livednlearned - what you wrote here made me suck in my breath:  

If you want to heal from this, you have to let go of the good/bad thing. You have to focus on why you believed in him.  

I don't know why this struck me so hard as the answer would be that for the first many, many months we were friends, he was just such a nice, funny, awesome guy.  And I felt heard with him.

suzn - *how* did you get right with yourself?  I look at myself each day and I don't recognize the girl in that mirror.  And not only do I not recognize her, I don't even want to be around her.

I have never read "The Shack" but I know the author had an affair with his wife's best friend.  May be too difficult to read right now.

If you are interested, I posted under my 'An Apology' thread on this board about religious stuff.

I went to the doctor yesterday and she is testing me for stomach ulcers, celiac disease, diverticulitis, and other things.

I am a complete mess.

I feel scared.

Modified to add:  I was going to put this on my other post but it had been too long and won't let me modify.  I am sitting here just unsure as to what to do in response to the priest (this is in the 'An Apology' thread) and I realized that part of it is that I am terrified and part of it is that I don't feel it's time to be forgiven.  That it shouldn't be so easy to wipe the slate clean and be forgiven.  That what happens after that?  I'm still going to be a mess.

Maybe I am crazy, after all.  

I was going to add this to my post right above but too much time had passed and it wouldn't let me modify.

I am sitting here just unsure as to what to do in response to the priest (this is in the 'An Apology' thread) and I realized that part of it is that I am terrified and part of it is that I don't feel it's time to be forgiven.  That it shouldn't be so easy to wipe the slate clean and be forgiven.  That what happens after that?  I'm still going to be a mess.

Maybe I am crazy, after all.

sheepdog, i think it would be helpful to know what you are afraid of? could you explain what is making you scared?

goldylamont, I am terrified that he is going to yell at me and see me in church later on down the line and give me the evil eye.  I have such low-worth and am such a mess right now that if he is mean or flippant, I will be devastated.

I am afraid that he is going to tell me what I already think - that I am going to hell.  I broke one of the big ten commandments.  This is a huge sin.

i see, ok it's really good that you can identify your fears. thank you for that.

this is what i would do then--i wouldn't go to this priest or to this church. find another church and another priest outside of your social circle. you deserve this. this way you have a safe place to open up and face these fears. you would know that even if the priest reacted negatively (which would be indicative that he really was the one with issues) that he couldn't take it out on you or cause trouble with your family. you could then open up to someone new in a safe environment then later on guage and see how real your fears are.

run to your fears! it's a great way to calibrate yourself to see how valid they really are. and you can do this safely by choosing a new and separate space to do this. what do you think?

(Cross-posted.)


Have you seen him behave this way toward other people? What evidence do you have to support your hypothesis?


Do you go to some weird kind of church I don't know about? I never heard of a sin Christ Jesus can't forgive. Yes, adultery is a mortal sin. That means it's dangerous, not unforgiveable.

Guess what? YOU'RE A SINNER. Welcome to the club. Every single human on this planet has broken the ten commandments. If only perfect people got into heaven, it would be empty. But it's not. It's full to the brim with sinners. God knows we're broken. He knows we're pretty hopeless on our own. Which is why He became one of us. If there is a sin He can't forgive, then He's not only a pretty impotent God, but that whole crucifiction/resurrection business was a complete waste of time.

Moses was a murderer. The prophet King David was a murder AND an adulterer. Saint Mary of Egypt was a prostitute, not because she had to be but because she liked it. Saint Pellagia was an exotic dancer and prostitute who tried to seduce monks in order to mock God. Every single one of them was at least as "bad" as you, arguably much worse. Yet the Church recognizes them as saints. Why? Because in recognizing their sin, they chose to turn from their wickedness and receive the grace of God to work out their salvation in repentance. They were willing to believe and accept that God is more powerful than their sin. If God doesn't forgive you, He's going to have to kick all of them out, too.

Now, Judas, on the other hand, given the opportunity to repent, chose differently. Instead of turning away from sin and falling at the feet of Christ Jesus in humility and repentance for what he had done, he chose to turn away from God and fall into despair. He would rather condemn himself and take his own life than allow the work of forgiveness. He decided it would be too hard, that he was beyond help, that his sin was bigger than God's love.

It is entirely up to you which you wish to be. If you want to repent and receive forgiveness, it is available to you. If you prefer to run away rather than reconcile yourself to God, He will allow you the freedom to do so.

I am reminded of a hymn from my days as a protestant. The lyrics are so beautiful:


Christ Jesus knows you are a sinner. He wants you anyway.

PF

cross-posted with P.F.Change!


If a priest does either of those things then he's a terrible priest. That's all there is to it. But if you aren't comfortable with this particular person, then why not take him up on his offer to meet with another priest? Or go and meet with him and see how you feel in person and then decide if you want to open up or schedule a meeting with someone else. Some people just aren't good with email and, of course, he had no way of knowing how fragile you are right now - maybe he'd be better in person? But Sheep, it's really all about you and what you need right now - make sure you find someone you feel safe with. If he's going to be away for a week then perhaps another priest who would be available for follow-up would be better, just in case?

Sheep, you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding of God is that he forgives everyone everything. He forgives even the biggest of sins. In fact, did Jesus not tell one of the men on the cross beside him, a condemned murderer, that because he repented he would see him in heaven? Murder is a pretty friggin' monster of a sin and if that guy could be forgiven, then you are already forgiven.

You don't have to be raped to be sexually abused or molested. Or to feel just as awful. I didn't forget what you told us - but that's how something like Stockholm Syndrome works, you come to love and sympathize with the perpetrator. That's part of the whole mess/madness and it's how so many abusive people get away with their crimes. Am I saying that you couldn't have made other choices? No, of course you could have. What I AM saying though is that it's not a simple matter of you having an affair and taking on 100% of the blame for it. There is more under the surface and, until you acknowledge that, it's going to be very difficult to process and move forward. You are trying to avoid half the issues and then wondering why you're stuck! This isn't a free pass, but it's a component of the puzzle you are trying so hard to solve.

I've known people who have had affairs. Good people. People who were ashamed and horrified with themselves after the fact. But they were not so completely devastated. The only time I have heard the types of things you are saying is from victims of sexual assault (not necessarily rape). All of your reactions are 100% NORMAL - but some of them are reactions from regretting an affair and some of them are reactions from being sexually violated and I think it might be important for you to separate the two things.

p.s. I addressed the religious stuff in a reply in your other post. :)

He has no idea what you want to confess. No clue what so ever. He hears confessions of many and I assure you you will not be the first with this confession.  

These are just a very few, there are pages and pages I didn't post here.

Ezekiel 18:31-32

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Isaiah 30:15

This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength.

Acts 3:19

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.


You feel it's not time because you haven't reached a point to forgive yourself yet. I agree you may be a mess for a while, you are consumed with this guilt at the moment. You will get past this sheepdog.




Ok, then let's go with this for now. This is accountability. This is personal inventory. You are talking through this with your group, your T, your priest and you are basically "fessing up" for your behavior, your "role" in this relationship. This is a process sheepdog and you are moving through it. You are on the right track. It's painful, growing hurts sometimes. You will cry till you're done crying and then it will change. It will get better.  

  Three days of crying. Or was that three more? My heart goes out to you.


God may forgive you by just wiping the slate clean. I dunno... . all I know is that however it happened, God has already forgiven you. I don't do it that way, for myself or anybody else.

For me, forgiveness isn't erasing a past transgression. It is deciding to let it be in the past, and live in today. Knowing that there is no un-doing. Knowing that I won't do it again. Knowing that I'll do what I can to make things better today.

You say you are still going to be a mess. I believe you. Forgiving yourself is the beginning of healing, or of a new phase of healing. You will know when you are ready for it. 

You felt HEARD with him.

This is huge.

Can you share more about that? In what ways have you not felt heard in your life? If someone sees or hears you in a way we have always thirsted for... . the experience is truly compelling and intoxicating.

Being seen and heard feels incredibly accepting and validating.

We often long to get from others what we refuse to give ourself.

This stood out to me:


Many victims of sexual abuse--especially children--feel especially guilty because it feels good when our sexual organs are stimulated. They may feel ashamed for liking it or think it is their fault because they do like those feelings. There is a big misconception that sexual abuse always hurts or that the victim never feels pleasurable sensations.

The thing that really hits me about your statement is not that you enjoyed those sensations--after all, they are *supposed* to feel good--but that you enjoyed them "after a while." This implies that you submitted to his sexual touching *without* liking it, and kept on doing so... . liking it "after a while" does not really necessarily mean you actually *wanted* it.

I don't know what may or may not have happened in your past, and that is a bridge to cross later, in therapy, once your psyche feels safe enough to explore it. I do agree that *if* something happened to you as a child, when you were helpless and confused, the feelings you describe about your sexual encounters with this man would be part of that bigger picture. They are part of the same color scheme.

There are emotional components here, too, as MaybeSo pointed out. Some things felt good to you emotionally. Sex isn't just about the body. Feeling heard is a very basic need. It isn't wrong to want to be heard. Do you feel heard in your marriage? In your friendships with women? Did you feel heard by your parents?

PF

Hi Sheepdog,

Confession can be good for the soul.  I'm glad you are confessing to a priest.  I did that years ago when I was at a place in my recovery where I needed to 'unload' a bunch of garbage that I had been carrying for a long time.  It was a relief and a release to tell the priest, and I let him hear it all.  He did not look at me strange, or tell me I was bad, or I was going to hell.  He accepted me right where I was and I felt ok.  As for whether or not you feel it's time to be forgiven, forget what you 'think' and/or 'feel'... . just take the action and 'act as if'.  The feelings will follow.  My feelings are always not accurate.  Put one foot in front of the other and ACT.  You are already taking action. 

You can't see it right now, but you are in a position of strength.  I feel you are on the right path.  Keep going.   |iiii

Phoenix.Rising

You're right, arabella.  I am completely devastated.  I just keep having wave after wave of panic attacks.  I just want to be gone.  To give my husband the freedom to find someone true that has integrity.

I talked to my therapist last week and she said panic attacks are your body saying that something needs to change.  

I answered the religious stuff in my other post but now it is not there?

I don't feel heard by many people.  I don't feel heard by members of my family.  I have friendships with women but honestly, they don't run deep from my side.  My friends tell me their problems and I am there for them but I hold my cards very close and always have.  I don't really share parts of myself with others.  I shared a lot with BPD.

I feel very heard by my husband.  When we were first together, his mother and sister made some disparaging comments about things - my family, some other stuff.  It really hurt my feelings.  I told my husband that but he never really did anything about it.  He said he knew what his mom was like, she wouldn't listen, and it was no use trying to talk to her.  I feel disloyal even saying this but it's the only time I've ever felt not heard by him.  Now his family and I get along great and he is and truly always has been such a support for me.

To be fair and honest about the sexual stuff - when BPD and I first met, I had NO attraction for him at all.  None.  For several months, I only looked to him as a friend.  But as time went on and he loaded on the compliments and told me all this stuff and the crazy behavior got ratcheted up, I started to think about him in that way.  I never would have acted on it but I am not going to lie and say that I didn't wonder what it would be like to kiss him.  Then, the first time we were physical and several times after that, yes I did dissociate.

Yes, he did make me feel heard, he listened, he cared until... . he didn't.  But I was too far sucked in by then to get out.

I have an appointment set up with a priest next week.

I can't help feeling this is it.  

The last summer of me and my husband.

I don't think that I am ever going to recover from this.

I keep mentioning that BPD has the albums, he has the blown-up photograph my husband made for him.  No one has addressed any of that.  But that stuff just kills me.  Just absolutely kills me.  Makes me want to curl up in a hole in the ground and disappear.

My husband and I used to have a saying that was just ours.  One of those cute sayings most couples have that is just theirs.  I believed that saying.  It was kind of along the lines of he and I against the world or together in the world.  No matter what kind of day I had, how bad I felt, what was going on - coming home and having my husband hold me and talk to me always made me feel better.

I have crushed that.

You can't ever get that back.  You can't ever undo what's been done.  How is he ever going to want to stay married to me knowing that someone else has been with me?

I don't want to stay with me.

Sheep, I don't recall if you said you were on any sort of medication... . I'm not AT ALL trying to downplay how real your feelings are, or how awful your experience is, but I really do think you should speak to a doctor. You're talking about panic attacks and classic signs of clinical depression here. Yes, there is a reason for it all, but your brain is stuck now! The inability to stop the fatalistic thinking patterns, the utter dispair, etc. If you ARE taking medication - please speak to your doctor about perhaps adjusting your prescriptions, something is not working here.

Have you spoken to your H about the albums or the picture? I know you are trying not to disclose everything right now, you are still processing. But you did say that your ex was gone from your lives anyway. I'm wondering if your H might be able to help you address even just this little portion? Ultimately though, I have felt as you do - I've had items of emotional value to me taken by people whom I wish I'd never even met. It's easy to become obsessed by the idea that they've somehow taken a piece of your life, of you, with them. The only advice I ever got was to take my thoughts firmly in hand and remember that these are just things. It's just stuff. It is not a piece of you. It is a gathering of inanimate material - nothing more. A piece of the past that is never coming back and holds no power. Everything you are is contained within you, sheep.


You CAN get that back. If it ever really left. No, you can't undo anything, but you can move forward. You can heal. Your H can heal. You can both forgive. Couples recover, and thrive, after all sorts of trials (affairs included).

Sheep, something else occurred to me: are you afraid of having people forgive you? Because as long as they don't forgive you, you don't have to forgive you either... . You seem to be using the assumption of their rejection as a device to punish yourself?

 I see how devastated you are. I don't believe that you deserve it either. 


This sounds like something worth exploring. The desire to be heard is important. I find myself opening up very completely with some people or at some times, and staying at the surface with others or at other times. I can't explain why I change back and forth. It is an area I'm wondering about in myself. I wish I had some good answers for you other than a suggestion that you keep looking there now and again.


I'm going to defend your husband here, because you are doing something completely unfair to him.

You have no right to say what he should do or will want to do.

The question of whether he wants to stay married to you is for him alone to answer.

I'm a little touchy about that myself, because my wife (when she was having BPD episodes) would sometimes say things like that about how I should leave her, etc. And I know that she had no business telling me what was supposed to be in my mind or what was in my mind.

I don't know him, so I don't know what he'll do. My guess is that he loves you, wants to stay with you, and will forgive you.

 GK

Hi Sheepdog,

I'm going to go totally out on a limb here... .   There just seems to be so much beating yourself up here and I'm not sure why?  I apologize for not being able to connect with you here; I wish I could, but I just cannot.

Could the reason you got involved with this BPD guy to begin with be because you're not totally and completely 'complete' with your husband in the first place?  And the BPD guy awoke something else (ALIVE!) inside of you and now you feel incomplete and somewhat dead or discouraged in its absence?  I say 'ITS' absence, because what he awoke has been inside of you all along... .   It's not anything your husband can give you or bring to life.  The BPD guy couldn't do it again even if he tried, either... .   It all happened in a time, place and space in your life that you were receptive to it, for whatever reason.  It happened for no necessary purpose or reason, it just DID.

And it's hard to make sense out of or to put neatly into the constructs of what you think you're supposed to do with it... .

Like you're holding on to it for dear life... .

And you're willing to let it destroy you... .

For what?  For what reason?

I'm all about simplicity... .  

Let it go, and thanks for the memories... .

Of a time, place and space where you felt free to love unabandoned... .

And here we are.

Reality.

How can you make your reality just a bit more magical?

By getting in touch with what it is you really desire out of life :light:

It's not selfish, it's essential.

Hi Phoebe, it's sometimes hard to decipher the way a person meant to write something so I will just ask:  when you wrote I apologize for not being able to connect with you here; I wish I could, but I just cannot. I'm not sure what you meant.  Is there something about my story that is annoying or triggering to you and you don't want to talk about it or did you mean that what you and others are saying isn't getting into my thick head?   

No, it's not that I don't feel complete with my husband. 

I think it's that I truly (besides my husband) have never had that one good friend (or at least not since high school which was a long time ago.  I have friends but not ones that are interested in what I am.  Along comes BPD!  And at first, for many, many months we were just friends.  And not only that, he was interested in what I was!  Music!  The same books!  Poetry!  Philosophy!  I think that was the draw and yes of course I miss that now.  Not him.  Not at all.  But having that friend that 'gets' you.  And to be honest, he also thought I was beautiful and amazing and kind and it all went to my head.

My therapist said once that she thinks I was trying to heal prior trauma through him.


Hi arabella, no I am not on any medication.  I think I am/was close to depression.  But I feel mine has to do with a whole bunch of stuff that pills won't fix and that I need to dig really hard within me and work really hard and change my thought process.

As far as forgiveness:  I think that I believe that once I mess up, no one will love me anymore.  That I can't mess up and have someone still care about me.


You are so right, GK and I will try not to say things like that again.  It just came from a place of extreme fear.  But you're right - not fair to him.

I spoke to a priest and also had therapy this week and though neither told me what to do, they both leaned toward and advised me more or less not to tell my husband.  I flat out said to the priest, "But that is lying!"  And he said that they were told to look at these things: 

-is the person truly remorseful and crushed and realizes that they did something extremely wrong (he said it was obvious)

-is the affair over with and not going to ever happen again (yes)

-will it destroy the other person?

He said that is what they look at.  Especially the last one.  He said if you really love your spouse and want to stay with them and realize that this was a huge mistake and that you did such wrong, but that it's over, is it worth it to destroy or hurt another person?

My therapist said the same - that it was up to me but that she agreed with the priest.  That it would never have happened if he wasn't BPD and I wasn't a mess and that she believes it will never happen again.

So, I am mulling.

Sheepdog, 

I'm going to share a personal story with you.  I was separated from my ex-wife and had a one night stand with a woman and we were sexual.  I felt a lot of guilt over this.  I am recovering alcoholic and I shared this with my recovery sponsor at the time and he advised that I do not tell my then wife.  I went against his recommendation and told her and she divorced me.  If your priest and therapist both gave you that advice, I would follow it.  You can always opt to tell him later on down the line when you are in a better place... . or never tell him.  Ask yourself this as well?  Do you want to tell to aleive your own guilt?  Be honest.  If this is the main reason, like it was for me, don't do it.  This is your mistake, not your husband's.  Your absolution comes from God and from forgiving yourself.

Phoenix.Rising

Thank you so much for sharing your story.  It has given me a lot to think about.

Part of it comes from I don't like looking/feeling like a fool.  We have only run into BPD once, way back last September.  Thank goodness.  But if we ever did run into him, I know he would be smirking at my husband and thinking, "You have no idea what I did with your wife."  Hard to explain, but maybe not to make me feel better, but to tell him because then he wouldn't be... . I don't even know where I'm going with this or how to write it but it makes sense in my mind.

I'd like to think the reason I debate telling him is because I want a clean slate, want him to know the truth about me, let him make his own decision, as your ex did. 

But I can see both sides.

Thank you.

I'm glad you were able to follow through on your goal of talking with a priest. Very brave!  Looking back on your fears about doing it, how many of them were accurate? Was the priest angry with you, mean to you, or did he tell you you're going to hell? Is he scowling at you when he sees you now?

There are definitely pros and cons to telling your DH or not and when. I think a lot depends on his personality and yours. If your spiritual guide and your psychological guide are both saying it might be better to wait a bit if you tell him at all, that advice is definitely worth considering.

There is something I have been curious about. If you want to answer, you can. What is your emotional relationship like with your DH? Does he know you have been feeling depressed or any of the other feelings you have been working through in T? How much do you share with him about your inner world--your thoughts, feelings, fears, dreams?

PF

I'm only going to chime in to say that I am on that 'other side'. I know exactly what you are saying, sheepdog. I wanted to know. I wanted the clean slate, without a secret hanging between us that I didn't even know about. Because the truth is that I did know. At least, I knew something was 'off' and I was constantly worrying that it was me. Once I had the truth I could work with that and move on. I know my H was afraid I'd leave, but I think I deserved to make that decision based on reality - not some edited history that was designed to 'protect' me. My H trusted me with the truth and that meant a LOT to me because, to me, the lies were the worst part of the entire thing. If he'd continued lying, by omission, and I ever found out, I think that would have been the end for me. I'd have felt like I'd been 'suckered' twice. That's just me though (and I think H knew I'd feel that way). We came out stronger for having worked through it together.

I agree with P.F.Change though - it very much depends on the personalities involved. Consider what you can live with and what will cause further regret. Consider too what kind of person your H is. It's a tough decision - take your time! 

Reasons to tell about an affair:

You are pretty sure or suspect he will eventually find out anyway through some other channel.

You have to come clean so a partner can take steps to protect themselves from a sexually transmitted disease.

The affair isn't over yet or you feel drawn to repeat the behavior with the same person or others, eg., this is a chronic issue.

You want to save the marriage and know your partner is the kind of resilient person that can work through something like this given time.

Other people were involved (other spouses or children) who may be at risk if they remain ignorant about the affair.

To maintain or sustain intimacy (intimacy is about knowing a person fully, not just the parts we want to see).

Reasons not to tell about an affair:

To off- load our bad feelings (guilt, anxiety, shame) onto someone else.

To hurt someone or create drama or jealousy.

You want to save the marriage and you know that your partner is the kind of person (based on real experience, not just your own fear/guilt talking) that will torture themselves or you with this information forever, eg., your partner has NO resilience to this kind of injury.




You have know way of really knowing what another person thinks... . and certainly you cannot predict someone's thoughts into the future! Don't get your stuff tangled up with this guy's stuff. You care about this and feel awful about this... . this guy may not give it much thought at all.  We can get into a lot of crappy projection with this line of thinking and it can end up being a means of self torture.

Are you concerned that your husband may find out about this through the guy or some other channel? 

Or are you reasonably sure that if you never tell your husband,  he will never ever know about this.

 

sheepdog,

I'd like to add that I don't think it's wrong to confess to a spouse.  I like MaybeSo's response.  In my case, I was not emotionally well when I told my now ex-wife.  I was trying to assuage some of my guilt by dumping it on her.  Hypothetically, which I really don't like to even mention... . if I did not tell her, I suppose I probably would have later on down the line when I was in a better place (or maybe not).  I just can't say.  Obviously, I was not meant to be with her.

I think my main point was that forgiveness and relief of your own guilt must ultimately come from inside you and from God.  If you tell him and he instantly forgives you and you have not found peace within yourself, you will still be miserable.  It sounds like you believe in God, so keep praying about it.  Good luck.

Phoenix.Rising 

PF - no, he was none of those things.  He was so kind to me.  I was an absolute wreck, probably used about 40 of his tissues and he was so kind.  He also picked up on many aspects of myself:  he said I had a lot of negative self-talk, that I have difficulty with boundaries, that I seem to have an immature view on spirituality.  He gave me a lot to think about.

This past week, we were home with family and my mother-in-law mentioned someone had cheated on their wife and how that is a deal-breaker for her.  She said she would never be able to trust them again and would always wonder what they were doing.  My husband agreed. 

I look back on myself now... . I don't know how I got to that place and I need to figure that out. 

And I need to believe everything the priest told me.

I am very close emotionally with my husband.  Besides the affair, he knows everything.  I tell him almost everything my therapist and I talk about.  I trust him.  I can share things with him and he is always loving and kind and understanding.  I know anything I tell him will not be laughed at or belittled or sluffed off.

Why do you ask?


Thanks arabella.  I know exactly what you are saying.  As I told PF above, I know how my husband feels about cheating.  I felt/feel the same way when we would talk about it.  I've often wondered if he suspects anything as after my relationship with BPD collapsed, I was spinning pretty crazily and began therapy.  But then on the other hand, he may not suspect anything because... . and this is the part that just kills me... . he trusts me.  Completely.   :'(



MaybeSo, you said:  Don't get your stuff tangled up with this guy's stuff.  That really struck me.  I think I do/did that a lot.  He probably is not giving it any thought at all as it has been almost a year since we spoke.  But I do get soo upset when I think of that photo my husband and I gave him as a house-warming gift and him looking at it and smirking.  Again, getting my stuff tangled up.

I am absolutely concerned.  If he did not have that email it may be different but yes I am concerned.  I think BPD bordered on being a sociopath so that not knowing what he is going to do... . it really gets to me.  It was the same when we were together and he knew that.


Thanks so much for the kind words, PhoenixRising.  May I ask what you meant by, "Obviously, I was not meant to be with her."?

I am trying to pray to God about it and trying to remember what the priest said about how I believe in God and how flawed that is but it is hard to undo decades of belief.  I am trying.

Hi Sheepdog,

All I meant was that I try to live by a saying along the lines of "nothing happens in God's world by mistake".  This helps keep me out of living in "should haves", "could haves", and "would haves".  Ex. If I had not told my wife, she would not have divorced me.  This was not the reality for me.  The reality is I told her and we are divorced. 

I try to believe there is a reason we are not together, or we would be together, make sense?  Yes, my choices and actions do have consequences, but I have more control than I sometimes allow myself to realize.  I try to stay focused on the present, and accept that "everything is exactly the way it is supposed to be".  Acceptance of what is frees me from negative projection or living in the past. 

Have you ever tried practicing mindfulness?

Practicing mindfulness--how do you do it? (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111031.0)

Take care.

Phoenix.Rising

Hi Phoenix.Rising,

Thanks for clarifying.  Do you equate what you said - "nothing happens in God's world by mistake" to kind of like destiny?  Or that what is supposed to happen, happens?

Bouncing off of what you said, but applying it to my situation... . you said, "I try to believe there is a reason we are not together, or we would be."  I guess I am just thinking of how all of that works.  I start getting caught up in all the rest like, - do you think that if you would not have cheated, that you would still be together?

And in my case, by not telling my husband yet, am I controlling the 'nothing happens in God's world by mistake?'

Note - none of this is directed at YOU... . I'm just working through stuff.

Anyway, thanks!

Another way to look at it is maybe you are helping God by not allowing what would happen if you did tell... . While God may be in ultimate control, we could view him as merely the judge so to speak and if irrelavent evidence is not submitted it does not need to be considered in the sentencing. After all what took place in your past is not something you did on purpose or willingly or maliciously.

I do not know your full story but have seen much of it. I do not know how you feel but just a very brief overview of what happened in my relationship with my exBPD... .

I had dated one of her step sisters briefly before I even met her and I thought it was all common knowledge with the family and didnt know all the dynamics within the family. They all lied and all of them are various BPDs with various traits. If you want a textbook of crazy they fit it. Not wanting to get into it too deep. We started to date and she even said 'I know you and (she named the person) dated but our relationship is so deep and blah blah, it doesnt matter' we will overcome everthing. After a while she distorted it to I know you guys were just friends to I know you didnt date. All the while I just let things go and left it alone, it was history and irrelevant. Well my mistake was to tell her one day more then she needed to ever know, partially because i was afraid if i didnt clarify (FOG) someone else would. So I told her and clarified everything and more then I needed to because people in love help each other right... . ?   In the normal sense yes but not her.  We did overcome as we were still in the honeymoon phase and she begged me to marry her. That would make everything even better. Then I took over her screwed up finances and got her out of debt which she had from the irresponsible ex husband


Well you guessed it. Years later when there was nothing else to disregulate about that whole thing came back up as to why she just cant live with it anymore. The rest is pretty self explanitory with the fact that I am here. All her raging cheating and lying is all justified in her eyes. She will NEVER take responsibility for what she did. Its all my fault for something I did before I even met her. Classic BPD

My point is I was in a bad spot when I told her and I should have gotten a T and instead worked on why I even neeeded to tell her. Truth is, its none of her business what i did before I met her but that dont matter. I gaurentee if I had not told her she wouldnt know (some of the things) and she would have another excuse as to why she triangulated lied and cheated.


Would I advise one to tell when they are in fear like that? I think when we are in fear and in the FOG we have to take some time and think it through before we do anything. (Tell etc)  Its like impulse spending, it will alsways come back as a bad idea but if we think it over , sleep on it so to speak, we can make better decisions.

I m saying I understand the spot you are in to a degree. You are in fea

Sorry if Iam rambling too much. Be good to yu, You salready suffered mmuch!r and afraid what would happen if it was out in the open and you are afraid it will come out in the open if the other party becomes vengefull. BPDs love it when we are not on an even keel and in the FOG... Thats the only time they function somewaht 'normal' is when they can relegate us to the 'crazy' heap. It makes them look better.

So to tell or not to tell, I do not have the answer to that. Knowing what I know now I would not have told because it was more about me forgiving me then her forgiving me. In a sense when the other party does not know, they are not offended. This is NOT the right mindset to repeat an offense but when its over and done with and we have no desire to repeat the offense I think it is okay. We have learned our lesson and that part of our life is gone.

If we are walking through a creek and making mud under the water its behind us. We should not drag it back to to us and if another was besides us when we made the mud and they were not effected by it, it was only us that was in the mud. If the water is now clear for both, its good if it can stay that way. While we fear the muddy water we have to try and think clearly

Sorry if I am rambling. Be good to you, you already suffered much

Argh... .

Trying to post on my phone. Forgive the silly repeats and phonetics

-slim

Hi Sheepdog,

Without getting too philosophical, I'll try to simplify what I was saying.  I believe we have free will, so we do have some control over how we shape our 'destiny'.  I do not understand God's plans, how he operates, what he wants or doesn't want, etc. and I am not supposed to.  That is way beyond me.

My actions generate reactions or consequences.  This really isn't either 'good' or 'bad' so to speak.  It just is.  For me the kicker is, What am I learning from my actions?  If I don't learn anything, I just repeat and stay stuck.  If I start to learn, I grow and move forward.  I must be willing, however, to change. 

You asked if I think I would still be with my ex-wife if I had not cheated on her... well, it doesn't matter because that is not the reality.  So I accept that we are not together.  What matters is that I recognize that's it's probably not a good idea to cheat on my wife.  It's also probably not a good idea for me to tell a significant other about an infidelity if my motives are not clear and clean.  So, again, if I learn this, I can change and hopefully have a better experience in the future.  If I don't learn anything, I will most likely repeat my behavior.  It doesn't mean I am a 'bad' person.  I am just a person, with faults, like you and everybody else!

The reason I said 'everything happens for a reason, is because I believe that'.  If I believe that, then there is no reason to get hung up on 'I should have' or 'I could have', etc.  What is the point in that?  That is not the reality.  So it is what it is supposed to be.  If I can accept that, then I have a good shot at moving forward.  I hope that helps.  You are moving forward whether you recognize it or not.  The outcome of your current situation is not really the issue here, in my opinion.  The issue is how can you accept your life as it is and be content and happy with Sheepdog?  Your Higher Power (God) accepts you just as you are.

Phoenix.Rising

sheepdog, i would think about the age old moral code of:

do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

so, if your husband had an emotional (and perhaps partially physical?) affair with a mentally unstable woman, would you want to know about it?

i think you may already know the answer to this, the trick is being able to recognize the truth of how you would feel before 'thinking' about it too much. perhaps applying this and asking yourself how you would like to be treated when the situations were reversed could give you some guidance. I would trust your gut instinct on it.

i am suggesting this so that you can step out of yourself for a moment. our own personal thoughts can conflict at times, which is normal, yet we have the ability to expand our awareness and look at our situation from an outside perspective. i think it could help.

Thanks so much, everyone!  You are really giving me a lot to think about! 

slimmiller said:  After all what took place in your past is not something you did on purpose or willingly or maliciously.  

This is what my therapist keeps saying to me.  And it is the hardest point for her to get in my head.  Still is.  We were talking about sin and hardships and feeling close to God.  I said that many people don't *choose* to do what they do.  It was done to them.  And she said, "Sheep, this is still what you DON'T understand.  What happened with BPD was something that was done to YOU.  YOU had no choice."  And it kind of angered me because, as I told her - I DID have a choice.  I am an adult.  I could have stopped it sooner.  I knew it was wrong, etc., etc.  And she said, "No, you had no choice.  It was the perfect storm."

I do understand what she is saying to me but then the devil on my other shoulder will put in my mind an image of BPD and I and how we were kissing like crazy 30 seconds before my husband was to arrive in the door.  And I *knew* that but it was like I could not get enough of BPD.  I look at pics of him now and I have zero attraction for him, just as I didn't in the very beginning.  But I was there and in it and part of it and despite what my therapist says, the cause of it.

I understand this sentence:  "I have learned so much about myself from my relationship with BPD."  I *have.*  But why didn't I choose another way to learn it?  Why him?  Why an affair (sex or no sex)?  Why to the throwing in the garbage my morals and values - all I ever really knew in life?  That's what I'm grappling with.

My therapist once said that I was trying to heal myself through him (the BPD).  I think she meant stuff from childhood/possible sexual stuff.  But she never said anything more.  I asked but she said we needed to get other things straight first.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps it was a lesson you needed to learn? Although you might know who you are and what you believe in and value, the triggers of childhood issues are powerful. Powerful enough to that our behavior leaves us shocked at what is done.   

In time and with reflection, my hope is you will forgive yourself.

You made a mistake and are learning from that mistake, you are sad, shocked and feel incredible grief. Give yourself the gift of forgiveness.

Take care,

C

I agree with you. Sheepdog I feel like you know yourself better than anyone else, your therapist, or those in the church, the weirdo with BPD or even your husband. You knew what you were doing was wrong. You were completely aware that you had a choice to do the "right" thing, and still you made the conscious choice to do something else.

In my case I don't feel like my r/s with my exBPD was so much a choice i made. I think i was just completely ignorant to mental illnesses of this kind. and i trusted my instincts and ended the r/s to protect myself. i felt anger, grief, tons of pain, even hate; but i'm not shameful of my behavior. Shame is an emotion that is there to tell us that we need to change our ways or change our situation. You are feeling shame about having an affair on your husband, and the shame is strong enough to continue through therapy from several sources. The thing is to find out what message this shame is trying to tell you--what needs to change in your life? What needs to change in you?



perhaps the morals and values that you speak of are not your own? were these morals/values given to you from your parents or are they life lessons that you know to be true from your own experience, wisdom and understanding? even though it's all you feel you've known in life, it seems like another part of you is being ignored or repressed. i feel like you are pushing away a part of yourself to try to control it. but this never works. it just rears its ugly head as it did with the BPD if you try to repress it. there is a healthy way to be ok with whatever it is that sparked the affair that you had. the truth hurts but is healing. you may have a painful blister, and the truth will be the lance that will puncture the blister and let all the bad puss inside spill out. it may look gross and it will hurt to do it, but once the blister is open and the truth is out, then the skin will heal completely. i can feel that you are searching for your truth here. it sounds like you have many well meaning people around you to help, but i think you may have to realize this on your own. they keep telling you it wasn't your fault, but really, you know it was your fault. why? why was it your fault? and why did you do it? realize that you know the answer to this already and simply allow the answer to reveal itself to you.

Thank you, C.  I just wish I knew what the childhood triggers were.  I appreciate your thoughts.


I don't know.  All I know is once my therapist said I was trying to heal old wounds.  I guess that is part of it.  My craptastic self-esteem and him wanting me/chasing me may have been part of it.

I don't know.  It was more than the affair.  The way that I tried in vain to be just his friend for over a year after we stopped being physical.

I am proud of myself sometimes that I just realized I had had enough.

I was unaware of this kind of mental issue as well and honestly, it still completely blows my mind.

I feel a lot of sadness reading that. I dunno why. All of us could say that. This is at the core of every story here. I feel so much shame about stuff I did during my marriage. My ex drank to excess one night, passed out, and defecated in bed. He must've tried to get up, but got disoriented, and stumbled around the room, smearing feces everywhere. On the curtains, the carpet, the bedspread, himself. I cleaned it up the next morning while he yelled at me, calling me a whore, telling me I was a b!tch, that I was too overly dramatic about everything. It took me 8 hours to clean everything. I don't know why I didn't just walk away that day. I had a choice. I am an adult. I could have stopped it sooner. I knew it was wrong.

My T said it's about repetition compulsion. This isn't about you being an adult who has a choice. You're missing the point. It's about being a child who has to emotionally reconcile what happened, whatever that was. Extreme shame tends to stunt us emotionally. Some part of you is desperate to grow. You weren't paying attention, and had to do this in order to get you to listen. It was the same for me.

Whoa, livednlearned.

Wow.

That is some seriously heavy stuff.

It kind of really hit a nerve there. 

Wow.

But, if this is the case, why doesn't my therapist say things like this to me? 

We've hardly even touched on it... .

And I am so sorry that you had to go through that.   

So you were trying to work something out from your childhood in situations like that?

Thank you.  I am definitely going to look up what you mentioned.  I have never heard of it before. 

Your T is saying this to you.

Hi livednlearned.  Sorry for just now getting back.

Yes, she said that but that is it.  She said it to me but it has never been explored, never delved into.  How do you say that and not mention it again?


I have not been on for a while.

I feel so very lost.

I haven't gone to therapy in months due to funds and life but I know I need to.

I truly feel completely lost.

Hi Sheep,

I've just seen your trend and just want to share with you my emotions and thoughts.

I also had an extramarital affair with uBPD, which was also horribly toxic. We started as friends, moved to intimacy and a year in a very complicated long-distance relationship with all BPD classics. I also got estranged from two our mutual friends because of him starting a relationship with one of them and me fearing of him telling anything about me.

I understand a lot about you confusion.  I also had and sometimes still have extreme feelings of shame, guilt, confusion of who I am and how horrible I can be, loneliness, desire to prove that I am lovable, doubts about it, feeling of hurt, guilt towards my husband, my parents and even my ex.

The morning after spending a night with my ex - I had a word "stoning for adultery" playing non-stop in my mind, picked up from the news. I was thinking that this is it, I can't be back to my "good" self. I let myself down. I wanted to improve, wanted to prove to my ex that I am a good person, and wanted to spare my husband from myself- thinking that I was doing a good thing.

I asked once my husband what would be his grounds for divorce  before the affair and he had told me that adultery and me falling in love with someone. I was honest with my husband - but as much as he wanted to know immediately after the affair. Why did I tell him? Because it was too painful to be with him, I wanted to tell him and run away, hoping that it would give him an opportunity to find someone who was worthy and for myself - start over and be a good person.

I do not know how I fell in love with my uBPD ex, but what I am trying to understand now - why and how I allowed everything to happen to me, why was I scared so much to lose my ex while feeling pain from our relationship.  Why I always believed that my husband was going to leave me one day or would stop loving me? I also had an excruciating pain of understanding that a year ago before an affair I would swear I was not capable of doing it... .and yet a year later I did.  While reading through your comments I could identify myself, I also I felt so many times that people who were emphatic with me and asked me to forgive myself were overly nice, the ones who told me that I was a victim - did not understand the extent of my cruelty. At the same time when I was harshly criticized for my actions I felt misunderstood again - I never wished anything bad to my husband or to my ex, I did it, I was there, but all along the way I was trying to make it better while getting more sucked in. I made some horrible choices.   

My husband and I are still together and our relationship improved a lot. Sometimes it is very hard, but I am not going to give up and let myself down once again. What helped me not so much him knowing about the affair (he did not want to know the details and was really hurt, I was sorry I caused him pain by telling it to him), but being completely open with him, caring, but at the same time pulling me out from "co-dependency" mode - being committed and independent.  I am also struggling with my guilt, which affects negatively our relationship, but I try to control that as well.  I know you tend to blame yourself (which I also do/did), but look at the reasons why you started FRIENDSHIP with your ex, rather than the affair or BPD behavior. What is that that was missing in your friendship with your husband? I loved being the strong one, while in my relationship with my husband it is quite the opposite. I loved the idea of saving my back then uBPD friend, being able to understand the complicated reasons behind his depression and being there for him. I felt strong and empowered, non-emotional and enduring. There has to be an answer for you too.  And of course, childhood and past life experiences - first relationships, self-image in teenager years, patterns of fantasies and roles we played about intimacy and childhood, our early understandings of love or friendship.

folie

happylogist, thank you so much for your post.  Yes, I know I am responding literally a year later but I missed this due to computer problems and this site being quite a bit triggering sometimes.  I was going to write thanks several months ago but I got a warning because the thread is more than 90 days old.  Going to post this now anyway and hopefully you will see it.

So much of what you said resonated with me.  Especially the 'start over and be a good person' and him finding someone who was worthy of him.  I will keep digging.

Thank you.

I'm glad you came back to say hi, sheepdog. 

I was wondering how you were doing, if you were okay.

  How are you feeling a year later?

I thought better, but maybe not... .