BPDFamily.com

As an associated thread’s become my opportunity to ask some questions regarding my uBPDgf, I thought I’d begin one of my own, so as not to drift from the original “Conversations with myself.”

I was married for nearly 30 years to a woman with ‘Adult Onset Anxiety Syndrome,’ among others things.  It actually runs in my family, to the point of accurately being described as having ‘married my mother!’  After only 2.5 years with my BPgf …I’ve often wondered, especially after reading the horror stories on these boards… how you do it?

I sincerely wish to some day live with my BPD-HPDgf, but fear, after ‘46 years of life’ and only one short-lived trauma-filled back & forth ‘marriage,’ she’s so set in her single lifestyle that she’s not up to it.  She’s often, and very sincerely described her desire to either marry or commit to a life-long r/s.  As I actually envy those of you who’ve had and maintained lasting relationships …crazy as that may sound ... . it seems I can only get ‘so close’ to mine – before she flees for all the fears and phobias BP’s are known for. 

Early on, among the group of shared friends where we met, I was ‘complimented’ for having ... got her.  Seems her reputation was teasing but never committing.  And, as much as she teases (men), she’s not sleeping around, just apparently addicted to the attention she receives.  I’ve wondered about the wearing aspect of a long-term relationship with a BP.  Our longest time together has been in 3 to 4 day spurts, whereas sometimes that appears to be plenty.  My (perhaps misguided) desire is to extend those, heading toward cohabitation.  Is that recommended?  We’re done with our kids, so there will be no ties that way.  We’ve independent incomes and wouldn’t be monetarily connected.  And at the moment we don’t even live in the same town, though I plan on selling … and a very big decision is which direction to head…

Lacking the bonds of those with long-term ties, combinded with her history of being single, along with the BPD and HPD … is this a pipedream, or even recommended?  Please take a shot – I’m open to any advice

Dear Inside,

     Maybe I'm missing something here.  You have read the horror stories here and you feel envious?  There are few people here who wouldn't give their last dollar to go back in time and avoid ever meeting their pwBPD and you want our advice about whether pushing ahead is "recommended"?     Uhh... . no, I personally don't think hurting oneself knowingly is a really great idea, even if you do get compliments from your peer group about 'getting' her.

     Have you asked yourself why the ego boost is really all that important?  If your self-esteem were higher would you have any interest in 'getting' a woman with no obvious psychiatric diagnoses?  I may not be a feminist in the strictest sense, but is 'getting' a woman really the point?  Having a nice, sharing happy relationship for more than a few days at a time might be soemthing to shoot for.   If I've misunderstood you, I apologize.

LT

I have nearly given my last dollar because I met her... . derailed my life twice... . nothing to be envious about, the people in long term ones with true BPD spouses are living an unenviable existence.

I couldn't do it, I spent a total of 4 yrs with my exBPDgf (who is a Jodi Arias clone in many ways)... and have had PTSD therapy (amongst other things)... as a result.   3 of the 4 yrs were horrible.

The hook that the pwBPD have with us is that they put out what appears to be unconditional love, they get under your skin in a primary r/s like a parent... . then when they do horrible things, you are torn and don't know how to deal with it because you know you love them 110%, yet... you are in a living hell.

If you are not hooked on a BPD person, count yourself lucky and avoid them... find someone without a disorder, if your family has issues (and whose doesn't)... get some help yourself, take time ... and find someone you can enjoy your time with... . not a disordered person by choice though.

My honest opinion is that if you do move forward with this, at some point you are going to wish you had never met her (it may be a temporary feeling) She's going to hurt you, there is no question about that. What you need to decide is if this is the kind of relationship you really want to be in. It's going to be hard, really hard and sometimes there will be a lot more bad times than good times. For me the longer I stay the more broken I feel. I love my husband, but it's very draining and it makes you feel insane. I'm not saying to leave her, that is your decision. You have to know that she will hurt you, at some point she will hate every bone in your body and she will tell you all about it and then some. It's temporary of course but it doesn't stop it from hurting.

If you do continue to see her I would suggest getting therapy for yourself, simply to keep yourself grounded. You are attracted to somewhat dysfunctional woman. You may need to look at yourself to see why you are attracted to them. Obviously your mother could have had something to do with that. The best thing I have done for myself is to get therapy, I recommend anyone who is seeing someone with BPD to at least consider it.

I’ve now seen and experienced it all (so too late, I'm hooked), and have no major problem sitting back as her BPD plays itself out.  Forgot to mention she’s high-functioning, so this isn't a total rescue mission ... . as that aspect includes an intellect I not only find alluring, but allows us to seemingly have more fun than ‘normal couples.’  Her insightful edgy behavior is not only alluring but addictive …and I want more    

I know how we’re drawn in ... . our behavior is mirrored as we're fed unconditional love.  That’s the hook, I get it, and have long since focused on the ‘deeper her.’  Her abilities, her take on life, her insight, charm, mental capacity – that’s what’s held me.  The BPD/ HPD are definitely an impediment, but is what’s beyond, or at the core not worth the effort?

I realize people come here to figure out how to deal with a person they love but at times can’t stand or figure out.  I think I’ve got her figured out, and so does she, as I remain quite cool with the BPD rage.  So I remain in love, not with ‘myself’ (the image in that mirror), but the real her?  Yes, sounds nuts.  And no, not what I envisioned for the last third of my life, but worth the effort when considering the best traits... ?  Heck, even doable?

You folks seem the ones to ask …but so far, not very promising

Lao Tzu … (let me look that over again... ) 1st; too late, I’ve met her.  2nd; mentioning the compliment from (a) peer was ‘proof’ that she’s apparently found someone worth hanging onto, and that she’s not been sleeping around; I’ve never felt my ‘ego’ had anything to do with it …and those peers have since seen multiple disconnects & recycles and likely roll their eyes at the both of us… 3rd; I feel my self esteem's in tact... she didn’t scoop me off the street.  And: “Having a nice, sharing happy relationship for more than a few days” is what I’m shooting for - and why I’ve asked this convoluted question

Inside... .

BPD doesn't play itself out.

Known my pwBPD over 30 yrs and it didn't get better, its gotten even worse. She was a reserved school girl at first, now, as a mean empowered woman with more practice... . much harder to deal with.

You seem to know this anyway, so are you ignoring the  red-flag , or trolling?

Good luck... you will really need it.

This presumes that people have completed the cognitive process of weighing the cost against the benefit of being in relationship with the BP. I've read plenty of stories here from people that have long-term heart-breaking regret over ending their relationships. Often, its a roll of the dice as to the outcome.

We're a fickle bunch; our needs change constantly. Wrapped in emotional connection, shared experience and sometimes codependency, even the most rational decisions may be wrong at any moment. When my BPDw is raging I have a What the heck moment every time. I know that to RUN! is the only rational thing to do. When the "demon' leaves, the woman I fell in love with shows for a time, there's a glimmer of hope and its worth another try. Right now its worth the pain. 30 years into this I still don't know the right answer. How is that much different from the masses of well-adjusted people in "normal" relationships asking the perennial question of ... . "what if?" I know many people in very unhappy relationships that assume their issues are normal. What is normal? We simply have a label for what overshadows ours (and it looms large!). Maybe there are worse places to be.

As for self worth, I suspect that few BPD spouses/partners are immune to the grating erosion that comes with being on the receiving end of long-term abuse. We have no choice but to search ourselves. For myself, I found during an extended separation several years ago that my ego was in much better shape than I thought - I just wasn't interested in what age-appropriate (or inappropriate) quality women were offering. The last thing I needed or wanted was to be "rescued". I loved this person, raised a family, shared a life, made a commitment, and... . missed her.

If "Inside" can manage to reasonably protect himself without co-mingling "stuff" and creating complex entanglements perhaps it an opportunity for a different path to a decision; as in "I need more time". At least his SO seems to recognize that there is a behavioral problem that resides largely within herself... . that's more than most of us get.

rj

Cloudy Days, I’d not seen your response before posting my last.  Thank you… you’re right, and I know it.  After multiple recycles, I’ve definitely experienced the pain.  But living apart and so easily pushed away has left me wondering if it isn’t ‘better’ for those living with their BP SO’s... ?  Sure, it’s likely more intense with nowhere to escape … but at least you’re still in the same house, and able to use various strategies to navigate toward calmer waters.

What I’ve experienced seems so much worse.  “It’s over,” “We tried” “I’m gone” …and off she goes! With neither really having wanted it to end ... . as evidenced by our inevitable reconnects … though preceded by NC, blocked calls and being painted black to friends…  It’s truly been a special kinda Hell.  So I understand and appreciate the warnings, but my question – if poorly articulated, is… likely not answerable! 

We love them for some reason, we’ve connected with them, even married them, perhaps had children with them, run a business with them … is it any easier on a daily basis?  Mine, though as impulsive as any, seems ultimately incapable of working toward cohabitation.  Maybe she’s doing me a favor … if by this point in her life realizing she can’t handle that tight or committed a relationship  

…admittedly addicted but frightened and confused – Yes – maybe I do need therapy    …but honestly, I don’t feel I seek out troubled women …maybe they find me…  Lots to ponder, but I’m still very appreciative of these answers … and you folks know like few other would  

Rj47, thank you … if validating to the point of tears... .

Co habitation makes the symptoms worse.

It's a disorder triggered by intimacy (closeness).

2.5 years and not yet living together... .

You ain't seen nothin yet.

I wouldn't rock that boat if you can avoid it... . but we all usually do what we feel compelled to do anyway... . so, welcome to the club!

Oh, being addicted to attention... . the HPD stuff... . So hard to live with... . unless you kind of

like watching your partner working-it with others, having flirtations and emotional

affairs... . it's a real drag IMHO... . but I know some folks don't mind it or even enjoy the drama or ego payoff of it. 

This is usually the dilemma most pwBPD struggle with their entire lives... . They are no different from us in that sense that they too yearn for finding that one person to form a committed and life long relationship and ride off into the sunset with and live happily ever after... . The trouble is they from the bottom of their heart and the core of their inside, don't believe in that being possible - for them! In their heart of heart the end of that dream is not the sunset, but instead impending doom... . The end to them sounds more like and then he/she abandoned me, never loved me and I was left all alone... . It is only natural from the disordered point of view that they learn to try to avoid putting themselves in that vulnerable position that to them is almost to be as if choosing to spend the rest of your life in the waiting room at the dentist... .  

That is the core of the disorder... . Having a set of life rules that makes it impossible to build any kind of real confidence in ones own self, and let alone not even a stable sense of self, but an unstable one... . Understanding that BPD is about having an unstable sense of self is the most difficult but at the same time most important thing to understand the full meaning of - if one stands before committing to a r/s with a person suffering from this disorder... .

You write she is so into her single life style... . Maybe you should ponder a bit on why that is, that she has still chosen that, in spite of a desire to live long term with someone, "like normal people do"? Maybe it is because she knows it is what works best for her... . ?

It is so easy to think that we are going to make such a huge difference in their lives, and our love will somehow opening them up or worse, save them... . That is unfortunately very far from the truth... . The truth is instead that we as partners in all likelihood will add stress and triggers to the dysfunctional behaviors of the disorder, rather than having any kind of calming effect... . And it is important to know that.

Just like with any other handicap it will be the steering factor of that persons life, and the only one who can effect the eventual potential for progress is the person having it, not anyone around them... . And having borderline is indeed a handicap. It is a severe mental disorder. One of the most difficult to treat of all, (schizophrenia included)... .





I am in no position to tell you what you should or shouldn't do... . It is however my experience that the restless nature of pw BPD and the often very many coping strategies that high functioning BPD's compulsively create for themselves in order to appear normal to their surroundings are things they just don't want exposed... . (there is a lot of underlying shame and guilt in this disorder and even the undiagnosed know they are not like everybody else and there is shame in that too... . ). Therefore the ability to withdraw and to keep large parts of their life somewhat a secret to even a partner is often a very big thing for them... .

There is also the aspect of separation anxiety that usually surrounds all r/s interactions for many of them. Both before and after a meet... . I.e it might take a lot of energy for her just to prepare for your four days together, where she has to "be normal" for you, which in itself is stressful and then the anticipated separation when you leave... . Which to her probably is equally hard... . And she may need time to get balance again after that... . ? Therefore seeing each other every day becomes a huge stress factor for most pwBPD. And I think you will find a lot of testimony to that effect here on the board. After all, there is only a minority of pwBPD who manages to maintain long term r/s, with living together and all that... .

I think the answer to your question can only be found in your gf... . My guess is that the best odds for succeeding with such a venture would be if she by herself, without feeling any pressure from you, took the initiative to it... .


Just a note of caution... . Setting such plans into action will, and I can almost guarantee it, change the dynamics of your r/s for your gf... . And for her it may very well feel like she is getting one foot nearer the dentist's waiting room or in line for the guillotine... .  So tread carefully here... . Sometimes we are better of right where we are, and I'd say change in any way is a risk factor when in a r/s with a pw BPD... .


You know what... . Just maybe she is... . :) Now I don't know the situation with your gf, but from what you write I get the picture she is diagnosed, and even with bothe BPD and HPD? I assume that means she probably have received some kind of treatment... . therapy? And if so, that will of course work for you... . On the other hand, the recycling theme that you seem to have had your fair share of, does I'm afraid speak a little word of caution when it comes to how successful a living together situation would turn out... . Again... . most pw BPD are just not capable of sustaining any kind of long term r/s... . Most live their lives through a weave of ever changing partners. And the reason for that is the disorder.

If your gf has been in treatment she probably have some pretty good grip of what her coping strategies are and what risk factors to avoid... . And if she is reluctant to any plans of living together, I think you will gain more from listening to that, than trying to convince her that with you things would be different... . Since quite frankly, they wont... .


It is easy to get the picture that high functioning BPD would mean some kind of BPD light, whereas low functioning BPD would mean the big kahuna, so to speak... . But that is far from the truth. What low functioning really means is that the symptoms manifest themselves openly and, yes there may be more trips to the hospital, more cases of self injury and perhaps even a slightly bigger risk for multiple suicide attempts... . However the reality is that 'high-functioning' BPD's struggle just as much as low-functioning BPD's but it manifests differently. A h*ll of a lot of energy is used trying to appear not to have a problem, but there is still a massive, massive problem under the surface, i.e. exactly the same internal problems that low functioning BPD's have, just in a way more suppressed with a lot of weird coping strategies going on to maintain the "normal facade". Seen through that perspective one could really say that in many ways, high functioning BPD's are worse off because they very often don't get the help they need.

The suicide rate is about the same in both groups... .

Best Wishes in whatever you decide to do!

Scout99

MaybeSo – bingo!

And: “Oh, being addicted to attention... . the HPD stuff... . So hard to live with... . unless you kind of like watching your partner working-it with others, having flirtations and emotional affairs... . it's a real drag IMHO... . but I know some folks don't mind it or even enjoy the drama or ego payoff of it.”

…as if BPD wasn’t enough…  No, watching her ‘work it with other’s’ can be excruciating…  so she finds ways of escaping my view.  Tomorrow she’s leaving with ‘our crew of drinking friends’ for a campout.  Just prior to re-linking with me, she described having to fend-off one of ‘those guys.’  And though he won’t be there …others will.  Makes me sick  …and just one of perhaps too many red flags...

Inside, this is my first look and post here. I have been married 20 years and things seem to be coming to a head.  I am responding to one of your later replies.

Your relationship describes mine at the beginning of the relationship. I saw behaviors without realizing or having a name for them.  And our relationship was one of distance. As soon as we 'cohabitated' and later married, THAT is when this BP showed its ugly head. But, like you, I thought more time with ME would fix things.  I thought that I could learn mechanisms and ways of communicating with her that would help.  (This has left me empty, broken, without intimacy or companionship, a permanent roommate who treated me every other day as if I were evil. )  After a few years of extreme rages and anger, (which I only saw once prior to marriage-and 100's since), she was diagnosed with Depression because it had gotten so bad I finally convinced her we needed help.  The 'counselor' had an easy time with that diagnosis.  It is only now, after diagnoses of Depression, Anxiety disorder, and recently PTSD, that I believe BPD is the true problem.  I don't know if I can find a specialist AND get her to another, but the meds, therapy, couples therapy etc. have only taken the 'edge' off a little. 

After 20 years of me giving into her every whim to 'keep the peace' in the house, struggling with her 'abuse' (how I feel), things are worse than ever. She is high functioning, NO ONE would believe the reality of this at home. They would think I am overreacting.  She is recently more empowered now she received her masters degree and suddenly is making 2x my salary.  I have supported her all these years, emotionally and financially.  I took care of the children's needs, while working a professional Medical career and running my own business, for 10 years while she attended school.  We have two children now older. (HS and Jr. High).  She no longer needs the financial part I offer and therefore its time for "ME to leave" in order to provide her with a life without pain, etc. (that's what she says).  It is uncanny to me the information on this site, and the stories of others.  I relate to 100%.  Things can seem like they are 'getting better'-You've reached a new place in life and together you are starting a new chapter. It's only a matter of time when suddenly, and without warning or provocation, the 'Volcano' erupts.

As much as you love her, you may never see the full potential of this disease until you are together day to day.  Not having children would certainly make an easier time of it, but if she is REALLY BP, then you are in for the ride of your life.  It's NOT one I would ride again. 

Scout99 (thank you) – “It is only natural from the disordered point of view that they learn to try to avoid putting themselves in that vulnerable position that to them is almost to be as if choosing to spend the rest of your life in the waiting room at the dentist... . ”

It’s surreal watching her describe her ‘desire’ to bond, and appears so sincere.  But I suspect it may be her greatest fear, a combination of potential loss and suffocation at the same time…  

“Understanding that BPD is about having an unstable sense of self is the most difficult but at the same time most important thing to understand the full meaning of - if one stands before committing to a r/s with a person suffering from this disorder... . ”

What a dilemma… understanding her core fears, is it expecting too much for an ‘unstable self’ to commit to a stable r/s?  Though the bulk of this community appears to be here do to trauma, to have had an 8 or 15 year relationship with a BP is an accomplishment and commitment in my eyes.  

“You write she is so into her single life style... . Maybe you should ponder a bit on why that is, that she has still chosen that, in spite of a desire to live long term with someone, "like normal people do"? Maybe it is because she knows it is what works best for her... . ?”  

That is quite telling …isn’t it.  I’ll ask her.  She speaks of having me move in, which is possible, but when I recently asked how my stuff could be incorporated with hers …she dodged it, stating, “You do have a lot of stuff.”  

“The truth is instead that we as partners in all likelihood will add stress and triggers to the dysfunctional behaviors of the disorder, rather than having any kind of calming effect... . And it is important to know that.”

Thank you, and I can ‘feel that’ already…  But so far, breaking up has been too easy …but then I guess it wouldn’t be all that difficult in the future.  I’ve come to her place twice in the past to find ‘my stuff’ piled outside her door…  Guess there’d just be a larger pile with a larger commitment…  (this is not looking good... )

“Therefore the ability to withdraw and to keep large parts of their life somewhat a secret to even a partner is often a very big thing for them... . ”

I’ve also witnessed that withdrawal … a willingness to share only so much, dare I become another (perceived) threat...  I also note a ... sadness within her that seems to acknowledge her depth of difficulties and the fact ‘I’d always’ appear normal in comparison…  That also hurts to wittiness :'(

“I think the answer to your question can only be found in your gf... . My guess is that the best odds for succeeding with such a venture would be if she by herself, without feeling any pressure from you, took the initiative to it…”  

Generally ready to jump …she is showing unusual restraint by not pressing me to ‘try it.’  But that’s how she’s put it – to “Try it” …which leaves me thinking, that’s her out – and to use her own words – “That’s it” “I’m done” “We tried”  …I can read/ hear it now…  

“Now I don't know the situation with your gf, but from what you write I get the picture she is diagnosed, and even with both BPD and HPD? I assume that means she probably have received some kind of treatment... . therapy?”

That’s a touchy subject …described in more detail in prior posts, but in short: she’s not been formally diagnosed – though in arguments uses BPD descriptions on me(!) …leading me to feel she’s more aware of this than she cares to admit.  And though we did couples counseling at her insistence (prior to a previous recycle), she played sweet & innocent while ‘I’ opened up (actually had a good time with the T).  She’s recently sought therapy on her own, but aware of my concern with BPD, has apparently worked hard to avoid that diagnosis, for which (I think) the T is just nibbling around the edges.  One rainy day she had me watch her well-warn VHS tape of Fatal Attraction – claiming “This is what I’d do if you ever left me” …that kinda confirmed her familiarity with the disorder.  And she has been around the block of life.  

My collage experience and aim necessitated some depth in both psychology and sociology; I loved it, and have paid serious attention ever since.  The Histrionic aspect is also my conclusion.  Though nowhere near trained in either, the traits we witness eventually add up.  And though accused of trying to belittle her with the accusation, it’s a serious loving concern that has me here…  Funny though, she’ll freely admit (almost in a bragging sense) a multitude of other ‘less serious’ PD’s … maybe with hope of further ‘disguising’ the big one/s... ?  But I couldn’t make her behavior up if I tried – and not only am I amazed at the similarity of behavior among people (leaving me convinced its far more hard-wiring than social trauma) with various diagnoses, it’s amazing how many BPD traits I’ve experienced with her in a relatively short time.  It’s there, I’d bet the farm on it.  

“Seen through that perspective one could really say that in many ways, high functioning BPD's are worse off because they very often don't get the help they need.”

Yup… ‘smart enough’ to maintain their façade of denial.  Man… I’m not sorry I asked, but what a trip … and it don’t look good.  Looks like those lasting the longest are prettymuch miserable and have only hung in for financial or family reasons.  And having it to over – wouldn’t!  And, are quite willing to warn off others …thanks.

This is already work like I’ve never experienced … though a labor of love, it feels like too much.  So, Plan B?  I move to ‘her town,’ buy my own place and we (as she’s suggested before) become ... buddies with benefits?  Actually, that sounds like as good as it would realistically get.  She’d be free to spin off and out of control as needed - and I’d have a safe & comfortable place to store my stuff!  But, and this is ‘my core,’ is that anywhere near the relationship I want to end life with... ?  Giving up ‘the real thing’ for a hodgepodge of never-ending drama.?  Passing up sound opportunities while being loyal to …what, an insane f-buddy?  

Yah, this is likely where ‘my problem’ arises -- feeling as though she deserves more… and that I’d be willing to (attempt) to provide it…  but instead, abandoning the crazy… as she’d no doubt give me endless opportunities.  Or, Plan C – move further away, out of her reach – and start over.  …gotta move anyway.  Hey – Thanks, All – you know – at this moment I feel as numb as I did after first discovering my gf’s connection with BPD – floored ~  It’s so sad ... they must at times realize how much we love them… I’ll just stop there

gwlincoln – “I relate to 100%.  Things can seem like they are 'getting better'-You've reached a new place in life and together you are starting a new chapter. It's only a matter of time when suddenly, and without warning or provocation, the 'Volcano' erupts.

As much as you love her, you may never see the full potential of this disease until you are together day to day.  Not having children would certainly make an easier time of it, but if she is REALLY BP, then you are in for the ride of your life.  It's NOT one I would ride again.” 

First,  *welcome* (never got to use that one before :))  Second …that’s as powerful as anything I’ve read around here – thank you for sharing it.  Simply chilling…  But I need to hear it …as much as you felt compelled to describe it.  Damn – just makes me want to cry :'( ... . and vomit  … and it’s apparently terminal - either taking them to an early grave, or haunting them (and us) till they arrive…

Actually, what you’ve described sounds like the coldness of mines short-lived marriage.  And when pressed to describe just ‘what he did wrong’ …she recently groped for ‘reasons.’  They share a son, so are still in contact, though states away…  He’s the person I should talk to!  Or - did you just likely recite ‘our conversation?’ 

She once pointed out a women screaming at her child in a grocery story, admitting, “That’s how I used to be with mine.”  …are the red flags not as vivid when they’re handed to us... ?  “But I’m not like that any more,” she went on.  So no, no more children, for either of us, but likely a train-load of other stuff. 

Again (though headed to bed out here :)) – thank you ~  Sweet Dreams... ? 

Hi Inside,

I think it is really good that you take your time and to also ask yourself what it is you really want in a r/s and so on... . Being in love, can easily make you loose track of yourself, and that may be ok when going into a r/s with a healthy person, but not when the love interest in question is mentally disordered... . Being in a r/s like that put different demands on a partner than a normal r/s would ever do.

Having said that, there are of course those who make it, and also have an at least somewhat normal r/s. I think if you check out a member here named Scarlet Phoenix, you will see one example. (I am under the impression though that her partner has been undergoing serious therapy and is fully aware of his disorder, which of course helps). What I am trying to say is there is no rule, or at least there are exceptions to the "rule"... .  My guess is also that if there indeed are couples out there, with one BPD partner who are living in total bliss, the incitement of looking up a forum is probably not that strong... .



The greatest fear yes, but not perhaps suffocation. More consistent with the disorder would be a shame and guilt perspective, an expectation to screw things up, themselves... . To them the notion of stability, and intimacy = equals plane crash ahead... . That is what they were taught as children. Not to expect for instance consistency from a parent... . But instead a parent who may have promised them something nice one minute and the next given them abuse for asking why the nice thing never happened or they never got it... . That is to a pwBPD the promise of stability rings false... . And especially if it indeed sounds too good to be true... . then they will test it and self sabotage until they finally get the release of finally confirming that indeed it was too good to be true, "just like they have always thought", through the filter of the disordered life rules they have developed... .

They may say smothered though... . to you or other people, since that is to them a way of fending off any suspicion of them not being completely normal... . again... . lots of shame surrounding the whole thing... .


It is hard to say, there are of course some exceptions to he rule, and through therapy a lot can be accomplished it the patient is willing and motivated to work, and can stand staying in the discomfort of doing said work. Ageing seems to have for some pw BPD some effect, as if the underdeveloped emotional mind in the end catches up with them and evolves at least a bit... . But i'd say it is way more of a challenge to a person with an unstable mind to be able to commit to long term stable r/s's... .

About the community, I would not say that the bulk of the members are here due to trauma... . Some may be of course, but the bulk are here for having failed a r/s with a pw BPD, those that have just began to suspect something is not right in their r/s, and some here since they have tried a long time to make things a bit more bearable within their r/s, and have come to a point when they are tired of fighting and being on the receiving end of a dysregulated pw BPD... . And wants to try something different, like communication skills and such... . But perhaps you meant being traumatized from having a r/ s with a BPD?  Because yes, that can be traumatizing if you don't look out for yourself, and accept, radically accept that your partner is mentally handicapped... .

It is my impression that there is a whole lot of love in the people here who have stayed in long term r/s with their BPD partners, as well as a whole lot of sacrifice.


She is probably very perceptive of you, and knows what it is you want. So you can count on that if she is vague it is a sign of strong hesitation on her part... .

I learned in my r/s with my ex BPD guy that the best times to talk to him to try and find out how he really felt about something, whatever topic really, was in the middle of our periods together... . Like if we had three days together, I would do it on day two... . Those were the times when he would be most likely to be in his most harmonious mood and as stable as he would get. And I would make sure not to give away my own thoughts on the matter, but instead try to seek his... . But even so... . Later it could anyway turn out as if he was just too good at perceiving what I would want him to think so he would then choose to mirror me anyway... . So there are no foolproof ways... .

At times when he was "overly enthusiastic" and acted like deliriously in love with me, would not however be a good time to discuss the future... . then his ideas would be wonderful, but at the same time off the charts... . That's when he wanted to go on trips overseas together but sadly in real life he can hardly plan to go away for a day to the next town if planned... . Planning for a trip abroad would cause so much pressure on him you wouldn't believe it... .


This is the sad, but still, very reason, there are so few therapists who choose to work with borderline patients... . Since the awareness and the acceptance of being disordered is so, extremely low and also fluctuating due to the instability of the self... . And awareness is the key to any therapy being successful... . So working with a borderline may take years just getting to the point where they come to accept the diagnose, and before any real work can commence... .

Then again, some are more prone to seeking help, and especially among low functioning BPD's. But also in the group of the high functioning... .


Like I wrote in the beginning, there are always exceptions... . And if there is a lot of love between the two of you and you may be willing to perhaps consider a bit more stable r/s but maybe not living together, but living closer. That could perhaps work... . There are though some  red-flag  here, where her not being in acceptance of having a disorder is one, and her history of never really committing to any long term r/s... .

Anyway keep up the good work on figuring out what it is you really want... . Since in the end, that is the only thing that really matters! |iiii

Best Wishes

scout99

Scout99:

“My guess is also that if there indeed are couples out there, with one BPD partner who are living in total bliss, the incitement of looking up a forum is probably not that strong... . ”

I’ve considered that, the fact folks come here when the going gets tough.  Actually, though this post was moved, I’d started it in the ‘Staying’ zone, assuming that’s where the ‘success stories’ would be…

“To them the notion of stability, and intimacy = equals plane crash ahead... . That is what they were taught as children. Not to expect for instance consistency from a parent... . But instead a parent who may have promised them something nice one minute and the next given them abuse for asking why the nice thing never happened or they never got it... . ”

Interesting… As mentioned, I spent the last weekend helping her stage a party for the family, and though I like her mother …noticed the mom dishing out constant doses of passive – aggression; a sweet offer one second – followed by a cutting remark the next.  I actually felt sorry for my BPgf and impressed as she navigated that…

“…then they will test it and self sabotage until they finally get the release of finally confirming that indeed it was too good to be true, “just like they have always thought…”

That’s the first weirdness I remember detecting in our r/s …the seemingly constant testing.  And yes, likely to find if it was ‘too good to be true.’  Yup, pushing till something gives – then assuming, because ‘it gave,’ it must be broken.  …and the guilt… I think you’ve got it all

“Ageing seems to have for some pw BPD some effect, as if the underdeveloped emotional mind in the end catches up with them and evolves at least a bit... . But i'd say it is way more of a challenge to a person with an unstable mind to be able to commit to long term stable r/s's... . ”

I’ve wondered about ages' effect, though recently read around here that their outward ‘me centered’ attention seeking behavior that’s often acquired by sexual teasing is replaced with amplified health problems…  In fact, I can see that coming.  Apparently an addiction to attention never ceases …though mines Histrionic co-morbidity may add an additional layer to such behavior.  

“But perhaps you meant being traumatized from having a r/ s with a BPD?” … “It is my impression that there is a whole lot of love in the people here who have stayed in long term r/s with their BPD partners, as well as a whole lot of sacrifice.”

With regard to ‘the community here,’ yes, it’s obviously their/ our BPD mates who’ve brought them here … not that we nons are pillars of stability, though when compared to our BP mates, we are...  And yes, I’ve accepted ‘Radical.’  And isn’t it sad to have ones love tested to such a degree.

“I learned in my r/s with my ex BPD guy that the best times to talk to him to try and find out how he really felt about something, whatever topic really, was in the middle of our periods together... . ”

Yes – and all that followed!  …day one – she’s ‘considering marriage and even another child!”  :)ay two is when to get down to it, for sure.  :)ay three, and she’s becoming depressed over separation and curt responses are as good as it gets…  The turmoil is so obvious.

…and trips...  Those in which we’ve ended up with only each other have been marvelous; those where we’ve stayed with family or friends have been disastrous.  She loves to plan, and plan …building up to some grand excursion, then shuts down in the middle of it… apparently overwhelmed by which ‘act’ to perform for who?  …the entire time blaming ‘it’ on me…

“And awareness is the key to any therapy being successful... . So working with a borderline may take years just getting to the point where they come to accept the diagnose, and before any real work can commence... . ”

After I’d figured out the BPD we had two more ‘couples counseling’ sessions.  Assuming it was a drum of worms, I kept it to myself.  So back to real life, I began reacting differently; mainly by no longer doubting myself.  With ‘me’ out of the argumentative equations, it quickly became evident to us both that it was her.  Then she began apologizing, and I suspect that hurt.  And another time, I kinda snapped ... . The end of a 3 or 4 day stay at the equivalent of a ‘Bed & Breakfast’ in the hills to ourselves.  Apparently, too much fun – or, the realization that it was over, but her nasty behavior (slamming and abusing this home of friends) had me lay out everything but the BPD.  As in, “the only question I have is how much of this crap am I going to take.”  Nothing crazy or threatening, though after I left - she claims to have locked all the doors, fearing my return.  Wow.  I think ‘it was over’ within the week

My main regret was that I hadn’t described what I’d learned regarding her and BPD.  …and just as she’s the one to break it off - she was back (for round 4 ).  :)uring our first day together I carefully and gently described the BPD, and that I feared her not knowing is why we weren’t working … I could not have been more loving…  Instant denial, even accused me of trying to hurt her.  Said she’d look into it, and did, on her own, but apparently to become familiar with the symptoms in order to better hide them... .  And, not running across the ‘higher functioning’ aspect, angrily denied the worst of the rest…  And when I described ‘higher functioning’ – she did not take it as a compliment

…and thanks again, Scout.  Good advice and a reasonable direction ~

Well put... describes my interaction with my exBPDgf (on and off) during 30 yrs of time.

I fully understand loving the pwBPD... and wanting it to work, and feeling like if you just try harder it will work... but it didn't work.

To struggle with wondering should I go back with them and take yet another try ... . maybe it will work is natural.

Radical acceptance is probably a better way to go... accept them for who they really are and accept what you are in for if you choose to be with them... . not a dream r/s, but being a caretaker for a disordered person that is going to be a major struggle to survive with. Some people go that way and stay the course, I eventually saw the light and realized I couldn't keep doing it... also finally listened to the advice to work on yourself.

From working on myself I found that the intense feelings I felt with the pwBPD and not with anyone else... is not only a sign of good/bad emotional responses to the pwBPD... but part of replaying the childhood traumas that caused me to be somewhat insecurely attached in general to people.

Insecurely attached people have many ways of dealing with the insecurities, and one is to disassociate from emotions, and intellectualize things and not feel much. A pwBPD can blast through that wall and make you feel alive again... . then feel terrible again and again and again... . but you actually do feel, where you may have been in the habit of avoiding feelings.

I think that is what is happening to many people here to some degree... that we get this primary attachment to the pwBPD, and we put them on a pedestal, deal with them almost like a parent... they turn mean, we take it, they are irrational, we struggle to rationalize their crazy acting as okay somehow... . when normally we would not. If they dump us we hurt like losing a parent, not like a normal breakup, so why would we want this?

The thing is... the pwBPD cuts through to us when we have a wall keeping people out, and it would be in our interest to work toward having secure attachments with people, live authentic lives and be genuinely happy/sad/whatever... . rather than being in the manipulative, hyper-drama, inauthentic r/s we fell in to with our pwBPD.

Clearly easier said than done.

Just like BPD takes long T, I think changing our attachment style... fixing the hole we have in us the pwBPD fills, our core trauma or FOO damage... is what we should be undertaking and I think its a bit daunting... like DBT for years would be to a pwBPD. The time will pass anyway, being comfortable in your own skin and connecting authentically to people gives that alive feeling and doesn't have the nasty BPD r/s side effects.

Charred,

So by ‘radically accepting’ their behavior you basically end up a caretaker... ?  Something that’s bugged me ‘from afar’ is how I’ve become this safe haven or port.  When my uBPDgf needs support; oil changed, yard work, care while ill, transport errands, home repairs or even money – I’m prominent in her life.  When her needs are met and all appear's well – she’s off!  …like right now... on an extended weekend of partying in the woods with ‘our friends.’  Granted, I could have signed up myself a couple of months back, but instead have stayed home to be responsible.  I work for the school district in ‘her town,’ thus this is my vacation – 2.5 months off is great – but it doesn’t pay…  So not only do I maintain my place, while she plays (and always on the go), I inevitably end up taking care of hers, too.  …the caregiver...

“insecurely attached,” I can search that…  In addition to my 2.5 year affair with BPgf, when shoved away, I was pretty much scooped up by another friend, a healthy woman.  BPgf went ballistic!  …though had been the one to shove me off.  I’d joke with my ... non BPD friend that ‘she was my template for healthy.’  As I’d not painted BPgf black to our friends, I did let three of the closest in on what I’d discovered, including my ‘non’ friend.  We got closer, though I let her know I still had feelings for ‘exBPgf,’ thus left some distance between us (something BPgf could/ would never have done).  And when I’d returned to BPgf, my non was quite angry, and likely hurt.  And, that’s happened around 3 times.  We’d remained friends, but grew so close … so I had to make a decision … I chose defective

I’d concluded I wasn’t attracted enough to the non that ‘breaking up’ was the right thing for both of us.  And as close as we’d been, I’ve not lost a minute of sleep over our parting.  Which is how I suspect it’s supposed to be.  But, after BPgf ‘won me back’ we lasted less than 2 weeks before I ‘set her free.’  …then here she came a creeping, and I’d not found anyone else ... . though she was quite contrite – having decided she wants to be with me … so here we are, again

“Insecurely attached people have many ways of dealing with the insecurities, and one is to disassociate from emotions, and intellectualize things and not feel much.”

…I’m not ‘feeling that.’  In fact, it seems I ‘feel’ too much…   Actually, my ‘healthy non’ friend did a lot of intellectualizing.  She’d described never really loving her longtime husband (father of their two children) but had ‘added everything up’ and thought it ‘made sense’ to marry him ... . as I could feel her calculating with me...   I don’t operate like that, but follow love.  And, I’m truly in love with my BPgf – darnint

“…we get this primary attachment to the pwBPD, and we put them on a pedestal, deal with them almost like a parent... they turn mean, we take it, they are irrational, we struggle to rationalize their crazy acting as okay somehow... . when normally we would not. If they dump us we hurt like losing a parent, not like a normal breakup, so why would we want this?”

That I can relate to

“The thing is... the pwBPD cuts through to us when we have a wall keeping people out, and it would be in our interest to work toward having secure attachments with people, live authentic lives and be genuinely happy/sad/whatever... . rather than being in the manipulative, hyper-drama, inauthentic r/s we fell in to with our pwBPD.”

…that also sounds familiar…  I can be guarded.  And the part about a pwBPD ‘cutting through,’ in my case, is very accurate.  Though I felt quite comfortable with my ‘in-between’ normal relationship … that damn BP literally strips me down and takes what she wants! – no boundaries or apparent inhibitions … though a whole lot more!

And yes – “Clearly easier said than done.” …but definitely food for thought ~

Well, I said accepting them s they are... and that is disordered. If you are expecting a normal adult r/s with equal partners... that is not how it typically is, one person goes to extremes to work around the others disorder. That is in part a caretaker role and some people choose to be in that kind of r/s. I wanted an equal partner and my pwBPD wasn't likely to be that any time soon. Worse yet, she referred to someone not being able to server two masters, and constantly made comments that made it seem like she saw the r/s as master-slave... and I am not willing to be in either of those roles either.

As to you feeling a lot... good, keep experiencing your emotions and working through them... but I personally had some pretty horrible stuff growing up and dealt with it by trying to turn off emotions (disassociating) and trying to understand everything (intellectualizing) instead of staying present and experiencing life (aliveness/living). So at work I have been a star, made money, done well by others standards, but not happy, sad or much of anything... . mostly disconnected. Then my pwBPD got past all that and the emotions were overwhelming/intense and I felt very alive... but after a while it felt alive and horrible due to all the BPD related drama and trauma.

Seeing the pwBPD as they are is the start of getting better from what I can see. Going from transference... acting like they are a parent you must bow too... . to seeing them as disordered and emotionally immature, helps. You can start to understand that it is just how they are, they do not think like we do, do not react same way, really can't understand how you can have more than one emotion at same time about something... . because they can't. Arguing about it doesn't work... you can't argue about emotions with a three year old... but you can be forced to be the mature caretaker... and more power to you if that is what you want, I didn't want that. My hope was for a mature adult.

The excitement level with a non-BPD person isn't anywhere close to the pwBPD... because ... in a real relationship with love, it is not instant, there is not super electricity. Genuine love comes after getting to really know someone, sharing experiences with them, having shared values and experiences, and more typically comes about over a few years time... building up over time. Most the BPD r/s things kick off with fireworks, and can be over in a few months... with the BPD person claiming you don't even really know them... . and being right, because you don't... your need and theirs result in electricity, not real love.

Eckart Tolle's "A New Earth" is a good read, and he discusses the difference between egoic and authentic behavior... . the BPD r/s is ALL egoic... and what we need to fill that hole in our psyche... is authentic intimacy. I don't think we can there from here... . with a pwBPD. We can sure get a truckload, or maybe a trainload of hurt and disappointment.

Perhaps instead of radically accepting their behavior it would be better to think of it as fully/totally accepting the reality of the situation. We typically sense  red-flag  and ignore them, because we like the idealizing, love bombing, and if it comes from a beautiful partner, it is easy to accept.

Who would argue with a super model wanting to have sex with you... . but that super attraction thing is largely in our head, due to our needs and in many cases the person we see as a super model... isn't that super special to the casual on looker and maybe not to us if we could get our blinders off.

I would love to be wrong... to find out that it is true love and can work out so that we live happily ever after with our partners... but that is how fairy tales go, not r/s with pwBPD.

Charred,

…I have been wondering how it changes or how bad it gets if committing to a long-term cohabitating relationship with a pwBPD.  Maybe ‘what we have’ is as good as it gets?  Seeing each other as we can, for a few days at a time, in between her wanderings … then heading back to our own places and lives. 

The oldest of four siblings, I’m an experienced nurturer, likely too easily deferring to the needs of others.  It served me as well as an ‘at home dad’ (W/ two solid and impressive daughters :))  Actually, my best feelings as of late have come when looking out strictly for me.  And, I’ve no desire to become or remain anyone’s slave.

I also had a rough childhood, always the tallest nail… with parents battling their own PD’s…  I remember shutting down as a defense to caring, trying or getting hurt.  But there always seemed to be a dynamic though that came through, that wouldn’t or couldn’t die.  Now, though seeing other women, my BP came blasting through for sure.  Just crazy sh-t, so real and raw and addictive.  She read me, mirrored me, and matched my intensity.  Extremely addictive.  Then, with hooks in … along came the BPD.

But with all the research, and all I’ve witnessed …there seems so much more to her than BPD …or any number of disorders.  I just can’t toss that out with the disorder, can I?  I suspect she’d survive, and obviously has... .   It’s so hard sifting through the debris of her life, attempting to determine what’s really her, what isn’t, what’s salvageable, what’s not … and is she willing or capable of recognizing the good or the bad, then dealing with it?  Seeking therapy on her own is obviously a good sign, but stopping short of acknowledging her deepest problems is not going to get her far enough to become anywhere near whole, or well, thus capable of matching my love and commitment.  And anything short of ‘a match’ (thinking out loud... ) leaves the other in the relationship taking up the slack …as I have and am…

“My hope was for a mature adult.”

My problem doesn’t feel like handling her dominance, it’s simply holding on to her.  As bold, confident and independent as portrays in public, she’s knowingly allowed me to see the real, frightened little girl deep inside…  My nature is to nurture her inner child, though I’d rather it were an adult.  But I’ve also wondered if the wild times we’ve had aren’t due to that uninhibited inner child … and to lose it would leave something …average, boring, responsible or half dead... ? 

On her own, it’s too easy for her to run and hide, as she has.  No growth there.  And that’s what has me asking and wondering how things would change if we commit to each other, move in together …and go from there?  Would it force her to deal with the inner demons, or set them raging to escape? 

“The excitement level with a non-BPD person isn't anywhere close to the pwBPD... because ... in a real relationship with love, it is not instant, there is not super electricity. Genuine love comes after getting to really know someone, sharing experiences with them, having shared values and experiences, and more typically comes about over a few years time... building up over time. Most the BPD r/s things kick off with fireworks, and can be over in a few months... with the BPD person claiming you don't even really know them... . and being right, because you don't... your need and theirs result in electricity, not real love.”

Well put…  But, we must see something that’s real on our 0 to 60 BPD ride, I mean they’re not that clever, are they?  She’s described me as like no one she’s ever met.  And I understand why; no one’s stuck around …no one’s stayed after the fireworks.  She’s been used, and apparently expected to be again, but wasn’t.  And I’ve been straight with her, far stronger in her presence than not (which I can’t understand but feel is a good thing).  Something inside me refuses to take her crap in ‘real time’ (perhaps a throwback to being the older brother and not falling for a ‘little sisters’ tantrum).  So she gets pissed and leaves.  Looks around - and I am convinced she’s not sleeping around (or that would be it!), then returns with tail tucked…  ‘Lets try again.’  And, there’s actually incremental growth…  but at this rate -- we’ll likely die trying!

…and I must appear totally crazy… knowing all ‘we’ do about BPD …yet walking into it…  But what it feels like to me is walking through it, trekking through a storm …aimed at a person worth …rescuing.  There, guess I said it – I’m a rescuer?  But, I want to latch on and get her to safety…  then allow her to grow, encouraging to good and shedding the bad.  – So, that’s me.  But it’s not up to me, cuz if it were we’d be living happily ever after. There’s her, and her PD’s, and their lifelong grip on her … and as her BPD compels her, after being saved … she runs straight back into the storm.  And no matter how much she loves me … without a level of help and therapy far deeper than what she’s currently receiving – this will never end.  And deep inside …she knows it. …and, so do I 

We absolutely think they are special... clearly... I think we have transference going on like they were a parent, that puts us in the position of thinking they are way too special. They are very talented... actors, manipulators, readers of emotions, etc.

The feelings we have are absolutely real, just as many of the ones they have (that make little sense to us... . like being clingy when the last thing we want is to be apart from them at the time... were real to them).  I saw the real girl I was dating at times... . and didn't run... . though I should have. My pwBPD... collapsed in her kitchen, had a panic attack over how her son talked to her once... . worried how we would turn out, certain the sky was falling over a very minor issue. It was the reaction of a small kid to a setback that they couldn't handle... . something an adult wouldn't skip a beat getting past. Saw the somewhat phony idealizing pwBPD recede, for the more believable needy/clingy pwBPD, and then the 100% authentic seeming, hater with a degree of unbridled anger that was so unfiltered as to make me believe my pwBPD could be Jodi Arias, and was fully capable of shooting me, stabbing me about 30 times then slitting my throat... . and I saw that very authentic seeming person... a lot.

I don't think you are totally crazy, I am not totally crazy, nor do I think most the tens of thousands that have been on these boards are totally crazy... . we don't fully understand why we went for the people we went for, why the r/s didn't work, why we were dumped, and lots of other whys. We felt strong feelings when we are used to having controlled moderate feelings normally, and many of us had relations with what we viewed as our dream girl/guy for the first time and were totally blown away by the intensity and felt alive and want to spend our lives feeling alive like that.

Nothing crazy about wanting that... . it isn't crazy, it is unlikely to work out in a relationship with someone we know or strongly suspect is disordered. (And I am using unlikely as in ... . its unlikely to win the $450 million powerball jackpot buying one ticket once... . its super unlikely.)

I briefly considered trying to figure out how to find lots of BPD women, thinking maybe I could go from one to another and get jaded enough to just enjoy the idealization and alive feelings and then move on... . but they are not objects, they are not normal or we wouldn't have these particular issues... and one managed to shine a light on destroying my life with my mistakes and actions... . doubt I would survive but one or two more, and seeing them as emotionally stunted 3 yr old mommy substitutes that I would be trying to have adult relations with is   

So... did I have good times, you bet, did I have bad... . OMG yes, the worst.

Would I do it all again... no. And if I can figure out how to get my issues fixed so that I am close to normal,... . nearly securely attached in general... I will do it and try not to look back.

The disorder does define the person, they are a person with the disorder, the two are inseperable ... . it is not a disease they caught, it is how they are organized and act going back to childhood and it is possible they will change... . exactly like it is possible to win that lottery jackpot... but realistic folks get a 401k and work towards retirement, they don't count on that one lotto ticket chance being their only future. The BPD isn't just going to go away, be grown out of, or be something we can "handle" with a few techniques and a bit of patience.

I cared for my exBPDgf a great deal, and miss her and wanted to be with her... . but that was holding on to the mirroring/idealizing illusion of her and us... . and fighting the reality of the angry, scary person that once yelled and ranted at me for 7 hrs straight. That person is reality, and accepting it finally let me let go and search for why I needed unconditional love so bad I would delude myself I  had it with my pwBPD, despite a few years of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

There are some profound truths in this! I can totally relate to all of it, from my life and my two relationships with one NPD and one BPD... .

Thank You charred so much for sharing this!  |iiii

And good luck on your continued journey!

Best Wishes

Scout99

Charred:

“They are very talented... actors, manipulators, readers of emotions, etc.”

Agreed, ‘chameleons,’ ‘users’…  But when that’s turned off, cuz it only works till we see through it - what’s left?  And is it worth caring for, or loving?  The only way I can stomach her deception in public is with the understanding she’s hiding a terrifying personal fear…  So I let her.  And since I’ve now experienced her fits, it’s become a gentle dance …or, walking on eggshells…  Problem is, she’s always the first to lose it, and the ‘testing’ seems never-ending…  It’s far from easy.

“I saw the real girl I was dating at times... . and didn't run... . though I should have.”

And thanks for the examples… from a bit more distance, I’ve experienced them too.  My uBPDgf nearly brags about her ‘OCD’ behavior, and loves how I can also ‘return’ to that (thanks mom).  But, I’d refuse to live that way and would attempt to ‘bring her back’ off that as I’ve done myself.  But now, as she temporarily invites me into her life, she might tolerate our differences … but I can so envision her changing to ‘hater mode’ once I’m committed, or trapped.  Yes, thanks for the reminders…

“... . we don't fully understand why we went for the people we went for, why the r/s didn't work, why we were dumped, and lots of other whys.”

My take on BPD is it’s akin to a very successful virus; it doesn’t instantly kill the host, because that would stop it as well.  It latches on, weakens them, then reproduces.  Are pwBPD so running on auto pilot, so oblivious to the harm they cause and the pattern of their lives that they don’t recognize their problem?  …I know, a question and subject beyond my original …for which I’ve likely saw multiple answers… but a reoccurring Q.

Let me think -- She had a pattern of failed relationships (with a couple of sons to show for two of them).  She sees others in stable r/s’s and wants the same.  She’s in love with someone having proven the ability to accept her condition.  At this age and stage of life there will be fewer and fewer (if any) opportunities for stability.  This person has offered to help her find competent help and support her in the process.  -- Yet she hesitates … wondering which path is ‘easiest?’   My fear is accompanying her down the path of perils only to have her scream with fear, tear away - and bolt (yet again) back to the path so familiar…

As I’ve watched her attempt to convince me ‘she’s ready’ to head a different direction …it’s also obvious she’s trying to convince herself…  Can I trust her?  Trust her ability to stay the course?  Seems I’ve heard it before…  But this time she’s suggesting we live together, assuming that would ‘force’ us to ‘make it.’  And, it would be on her turf, forcing me to meld to her ways … and since she has so little give, unlikely to last.  And if we ‘forced’ it to work, I envision her becoming resentful, angry and cold… 

“... . it isn't crazy, it is unlikely to work out in a relationship with someone we know or strongly suspect is disordered.”

…and, you’re right…  Guess I’d never be dealing with ‘her,’ but a disorder.  If the loving part of her can not overpower the ugly disorder, we’re doomed  

“I briefly considered trying to figure out how to find lots of BPD women, thinking maybe I could go from one to another and get jaded enough to just enjoy the idealization and alive feelings and then move on... . ”

Wow    …while I’ve been somewhat relieved that at least now I’ll spot (and dodge) them … I’m stuck on this one…  But what’s the difference?  Guess you’d not have any reason to ‘make it work,’ thus saving loads of energy for the thrilling part.  Actually, at my age and stage of life …I wonder just what’s left out there.  Of three women I’ve spent serious time with since my long term marriage ended, each (single for many years) had/ have some problems.  …now I don’t feel prone to problems, and they’re all ‘upstanding women’ in their community … just unstable enough to have not maintained a marriage (one never married).  …are healthy women hanging on to dead r/s’s … or too jaded to try again?

Perhaps I should simply enjoy my freedom, and as a friend recently put it (happily if newly married herself), “Settle, and they’ll find you” …” “They’ll light like butterflies.”  …Butterflies hungh … not Terodactyls    

You mention when its turned off whats left... not much, they don't have a firmly developed "self"... and that is part of the problem. Part of the charm of my pwBPD was that she had the reactions of a kid, saw things with real excitement and reacted with more than normal drama, and that was endearing to me when I felt like my own emotions were pretty stilted at times.

The example I didnt give was how she would start each new recycle with the same fight... . the "am I going to take second place to your kid and that breeder"... which would be repeated a 100 ways until I reacted. She simply could not accept that I wasn't going to hate my exwife, and/or be mean to her. She didn't go so far as to attack my daughter directly (which I took as meaning she really does know what she is doing and is just manipulative)... but would indirectly say I put everyone else ahead of her and her needs. She would get upset if I had a call with my ex and it didn't have to do with my kid only. Each thing cranked up the dysregulation. Seeing her deal with her ex was scary... 10 yrs apart and she still went after him like they were currently in court and fighting for her life... . very ugly, and her expectation was that I treat my ex like that.

My exBPDgf had a pattern of failed r/s... had been diagnosed BPD and then went after getting the licensing of the diagnostician pulled. She was married twice, had an annulment, was engaged 7 times and didn't have any idea how many boyfriends she had slept with, had an abortion and 2 STD's that I know of. She went to another T and they told her to read "Women who love too much" and said she just had a bit of an unstable personality... . basically agreeing with her I was the entire problem. I was married without incident 22 yrs and had a kid... but nothing could ever be her problem.

I mentioned looking for other BPD women... as a sad side effect of all this. I don't know what to do going forward. Been reconciling with the exwife, we still care about each other and I miss the family life. No r/s in my life had the emotions and feeling of being alive that the one with the pwBPD did, and I want that aliveness... and the good emotions. I would take the good with the bad if the r/s were normal but it was more like a war than a r/s. Dated a few other women, they were nice, at my age they don't look that great ... neither do I ... but its hard to get really excited physically by them. I don't want to be dating some 20 something gal being in my 50's and its not likely to happen anyway. So the thought was... how else can I get that alive feeling and each time I am around BPD/NPD gals there is a spark... ready to ignite a gas can and blow me up. So that is out. All I have left is searching out genuine intimacy with someone I love, and getting connected to feelings that have long been repressed and doing other things for positive emotions... like riding jet ski's or watching mushy movies maybe... . if I get fixed enough to be able to sit through one.

Looking back on life so far... its been a strange trip, I have been the head of a chain of medical centers, made lots of money, been a martial arts instructor, ran a marathon, taught computer classes, worked on a farm, been married, divorced and had about every boy toy worth having, including airplanes... and the stuff, money and accomplishments... . all of the odd stuff... was diversions from getting close to people, if they had failed I probably would have found better intimate relationships... but I worked very hard and found the successful accomplishment of goals done for the wrong reason to be pretty hollow victories. The losses I feared (like money/stuff in divorce)... actually had zero impact on me once they came to be, and the regrets are that I didn't work on myself long ago and spend all those years with real friends and making my own supportive family. Still alive so better late than never.

As to the pwBPD... there are plenty of people with BPD spouses... . I don't believe it is the way to go to be content, as I want a partner, not a dependent sneaky little kid in an adult body.

Charred:

I both admire and appreciate your candor, thank you. 

“I would take the good with the bad if the r/s were normal but it was more like a war than a r/s.”

I can see, and feel that already within my own…  My ego’s not damaged by her accusations or negative assertions, but when deflected back, hers is.  I now visualize a cold war; silent treatments …being relegated to ‘hiding places’ within her realm... .   Having had a long-term marriage myself, I understand it requires care and effort, but not constantly.  And in my 50’s as well, do I want to continue working at a relationship … or find one that’s as relaxing as retirement... ? 

I’ll also admit, she’s ten years younger than me and still attractive …which is more than can be said for the vast majority of women (and men) attending my HS reunion a couple weeks ago…  I’m in pretty good shape, but may ultimately be looking for the stable bliss you later described … minus the physical attraction… 

“but I worked very hard and found the successful accomplishment of goals done for the wrong reason to be pretty hollow victories.”

Thank you for sharing that, too.  I’ve also worked very hard, plowing my energy into acres of family homestead while raising two daughters in paradise.  My anxiety laden wife worked away as I literally kept the home fires burning.  Now, with a divorce decree demanding just short of half the value of this century farm, including additional acreage and the home I built … my efforts seem wasted as well.  Still here, surrounded by all I love and accomplished, yet plan to sell …perhaps my BPgf is better described as a diversion than a mate…

“As to the pwBPD... there are plenty of people with BPD spouses... . I don't believe it is the way to go to be content, as I want a partner, not a dependent sneaky little kid in an adult body.”

I get that … a dependent sneaky little kid in an adult body – BINGO  

Dependent: needs me to pick up the pieces and help stabilize her

Sneaky: at this moment halfway across the state running around the woods with ‘our friends’ - likely smoking pot, drinking and half naked ... . what a comforting feeling!

Little Kid: been there – done that, mine are prettymuch raised …and I’m in no hurry for grandchildren. 

Adult body: and flaunting it as we speak! 

You mentioned NPD & BPD gals…  had any experience with an H (Histrionic) PD gal... ?  Aspects of that behavior would occasionally seem to clash with BPD, but most often magnify it I think.  Drama Squared!  Impulsivity meets Flamboyance … a deadly combo …as she participates in as many related activities as possible.  I often wonder if she’ll make it back alive

I was married to a woman described everyone said was histrionic... but short of a PD in my opinion, certainly a drama queen though.

I met her on the rebound from my exBPDgf... the first go round ... so many years ago, and liked her, she reminded me of my exBPDgf with the . Fortunately she is personable, honest, nice, even wehn hurt and upset... never did the stuff my pwBPD did to me. Doubt we had a harsh 20 minute argument during the 22 yrs we were married... . we had differences of opinions but always tempered the arguments with respect and an intent to stay together... . in fact, we were civil, even in divorce... . words probably never said about a pwBPD r/s I suspect.

My exBPDgf... lost weight and worked on her looks from about the moment we got back together, she went from frumpy to very nice looking during the 4 yrs we were on and off again. I lost weight as well, but hers was to entice me and mine was from being too upset to eat... . much of the time.

Was breaking out in welts and at the high point of my stress (my pwBPD was harassing my exwife on the cusp of the divorce being final, my daughter wouldn't talk to me... and my pwBPD had just cost me the best paying job of my life... I was about to snap)... that is when I finally went to a T... and he pointed me to Eckart Tolle's "A New Earth"... which looked like mystic BS... but turned out to be exactly what I needed then... mindfulness dropped the rumination and stress level lower than they had ever been in my life within about 6 weeks.

Staying in the here and now seems to be a lot of coping, and of becoming alive and happy, I think appreciating what is going on now and being with someone fun to appreciate it is most of the recipe.

What are you hoping to accomplish here? I realized I needed a goal for T, and tried to think of the root cause of the problem and clearly it lies with me... and at this moment I belive I want to learn to be a securely attached person (as opposed to a wingnut/person with a screw loose I suppose.  ) Found a good book explaining the process called "Healing Developmental Trauma" and have heard that the term for going back and fixing it is "earned secure attachment"... so that is my new goal for T.

My theory is that if I didn't have the hole in the soul... I wouldn't have tried to fill it with the BPD faux love.

The discussions with a T have been so odd... everything from I miss her and feel like I could die, to ... did he think it would be a bad idea to pursue a mail order bride... or chase BPD girls serially? All over the place... but with it I have been unwinding... losing that tight spring like tension that to a degree I always had... . the spring was over tightened by the BPD r/s... and I have had enough trauma drama for a while. No hurry, I have a lot to overcome. Each day NC is a good day. :)

Charred - “What are you hoping to accomplish here?”

Ever since I became aware of my uBPDgf’s condition I’ve searched for all I could learn.  Read Randi Kreger’s book, The Essential Family Guide to BPD, twice.  Have watched most pertinent YouTube videos on BPD.  Checked out college psych DVD’s on the same and have read across the internet…  When I’ve been away from her, to figure if there was anything I could have done; when I’ve been with her, to better understand thus navigate the condition – and everything in-between…

I’ve no doubt learned more from ‘Right Here’ than anywhere else and am consistently blownaway with the intelligence, compassion and level-headedness of those posting around here.  I’m a ‘forum moderator’ in an unrelated realm - but have never seen as much activity as ‘Right Here.’  Impressive, and due to it’s relevance to my life, addictive

If I’m with her – I want to know how the rest of you have done it.  When we’re apart …I’d like to justify having maintained my boundaries ... . and likely vent   Other times, it’s nice to hopefully provide some guidance or assistance to someone recently traumatized by what we’ve experienced.  And as I’d said several times around here … as messed up as our BPDer’s are …they’ve glommed on to some very impressive people |iiii

I’m hoping to form a conclusion as to whether moving in with my uBPDgf will allow us to stop the continuous breakup-makeup cycles.  If not, then how close should I get?  Shall I relocate within ‘her town’ and attempt to maintain a relationship nearer by proximity yet still living apart?  Or, should I head off to live in a resort town on the coast and hope I stumble onto sanity, love and employment there... ?

I’ve also wondered how folks having or had long term relationships with BP’s do it or fare…  Wondering if the effort’s worth it.  Is what we feel we ‘get’ at least equal to or better than the tremendous outlay of emotions, resources and effort we give  

Can’t say I’ve concluded anything … other than some ‘self therapy’ with an audience ... . along with some personal guidance (thanks) from you.  My life is definitely in flux.  She, and our relationship is likely a quarter of what I’m dealing with at the moment…  But considering all my options, and fortunately I have some, my r/s with her feels like a guide.  With her, I don’t care where I’m at – or what I have to do to remain there.  But, as described – we’ve never lived together … and the dynamics of such could prove catastrophic.  And though she feeds on such drama – I don’t   

I have learned more about BPD on this sight than anywhere else, certainly. The fear of us moving in together seemed to be the final nail in my r/s coffin with my BPD. She freaked and went NC... and next showed up on FB with another guy... claiming he was perfect... and all that fairly common stuff... ended with him dumping her and her having an STD from him. (Karma I thought at time.)

I used to think Brad Pitt was a so-so talent, nothing special to look at and the universe was unfairly rewarding him... then he got Angelina Jolie... and I was sure of it... . but now that she appears/claims to be BPD... . Karma is alive and well, and he seems to be earning what he has... . nothing is off at all. 

It has been very therapeutic to think aloud and interact on the boards... like most people here, I started out at my wits end, stressed and lost, hurting from a breakup. Was vacillating back and forth between I can't live without her and I need to stay the heck away from the toxic r/s. Once I made it past the initial split and de-stressed it was a bit easier and time and finally feeling I understand her, the r/s and my intense feelings... has done wonders for helping me depart the r/s.

I suspect the healthier someone is mentally the better they would be equipped to handle being in a r/s with a pwBPD... and the less likely they would be to do so... or to feel the intense attachment to the partner we do. Its why I want to be as "securely attached" after the fact as I can. For now I just see the  red-flag  from some potential partners and dodge the crazy bullet. Used to pursue that electric feeling... always assuming it must be true love finally calling for me... . romantic? No... desperate/pathetic almost. I think it is just like money... some people want to be a success and want the things success/money can buy, but are drawn to the shortcut of stealing it, and find that their is no real happiness unless you earn it the right way and can be proud of what you do. I was always proud of being with my pwBPD... but had I seen her with the clarity I do now... I might have felt different, and surely would have if others also saw her clearly... . but far from it. She could play a crowd and have a likable persona/game face... . but it had nothing to do with what she was really like, it was acting... . like Angelina Jolie... . but not publicly recognized as such.

Its also becoming clear that the boards give advice and views but don't tell you what you should do, and a T shouldn't either, and the decisions with a BPD r/s are tough, we are already beat up pretty good by the time we are having to think of decisions... . before we had no question. When my exBPDgf came back in my life... I was compelled to be with her despite 20+ yrs of marriage and a daughter and a good life... it was that strong... and walking from the attraction is hard... but for me the right thing to do. The nature of BPD... my pwBPD will never be cured... if she were, she wouldn't be the person I was drawn to like superglue... . so its either take it warts and all or end it, and she is by definition totally lacking in integrity, and I can't live with that. YMMV.

{/quote}I’ve also wondered how folks having or had long term relationships with BP’s do it or fare…  Wondering if the effort’s worth it.  Is what we feel we ‘get’ at least equal to or better than the tremendous outlay of emotions, resources and effort we give  

Can’t say I’ve concluded anything … other than some ‘self therapy’ with an audience ... . [/quote]
I've been pondering that question for 30 years but have concluded that I don't know what I don't know.

Identifying my wife's PD early in the relationship (without knowing what it was) was easy. However, the coping mechanisms I slid into to keep the PD in check turned out to be personally destructive. I was a hard charging Type-A personality building a successful business; and then, would turn into a blithering idiot at home when the PD "demon" showed. My children deserved better than that. She did as well

Its hard to consider the question of "was it worth it" focusing on my own discrete needs. My children grew up to be decent adults and thanked me for enduring through their childhood. They've suggested that she would not be alive today, but for the patience and longsuffering I endured. Does that have "worth"? Absolutely. Again, I don't know what I don't know about what an alternative path might have produced in both of us.

You touched on a point that is somewhat disturbing for me personally. I've suspected that the insidious nature of her PD was like an infectious parasite. I was drawn to her 30-yrs ago because of an edgy and unpredictable nature that she continues to have today. The sexual connection was immediate and intense, also continues, and has increased as she's become more attractive with age. It was frustrating a few years ago when we separated for a time. There were quality women wanting to explore relationship with me, but I found that I just wasn't that interested. I was bored. She quite possibly is the answer to most every man's mid-life crisis, and, a source of a different crisis. Its maddening.  I'm 55 and wonder if my emotional maturity was interrupted long ago, or a parasitic psycho-pathogen infected me, or, I'm just a nuts as her. Simple CLARITY continues to elude me.

I don't know if I'll ever settle the answer in my own mind if its "been worth it". And, I'm unable to objectively chart the highs and lows into a concrete decision about what "the best decision" is. I go into deep despair when the demon shows, and, feel incredible joy when the half crazy intoxicating erotic woman I fell for long ago shows up for a time.

Sorry. No thoughtful answer from me, but check in with me in a few days. I may be screaming RUUNNNNN!

D*mn frustrating it is... . but definitely never boring.

Charred -  “The fear of us moving in together seemed to be the final nail in my r/s coffin with my BPD. She freaked and went NC... and next showed up on FB with another guy... ”

…I’m wondering about the same … looking at selling out and moving her direction.  As she’s tentatively ‘suggested’ I live with her, I’ll be juggling my finances to the point of not being able to afford a costly mistake, as well as relocating.  Though my job’s in her town, I’m not tied to it and would easily move on to something else.  I could and would likely ‘reinvest’ in a home, but (or BUT), if we split again (which odds are we will... ) I’d then prefer to be a long (long) way from her and job both… 

My BPgf seems even to mirror my relationships.  Though she’s quick to begin working her circuit, it’s not until “I” find an interest that she finds one too.  As fearful to commit to them as me, she simply leads them on until they begin pressuring her for sex, where she fortunately draws the line. …and as I’ve known them (the usual suspects), I’m quite aware of their activities... .   Strange, when she begins getting pressure like that – she hunts for me.  …and I consider that a ‘sign of the depth of our love’ (whether it is or not) and have easily returned … and dropping my ‘healthy’ interest ... . why does pecking this out make it appear vastly more stupid... ?

Yah… Karma and Chameleon’s *)

“like most people here, I started out at my wits end, stressed and lost, hurting from a breakup. Was vacillating back and forth between I can't live without her and I need to stay the heck away from the toxic r/s.”

…me, too  And, it’s actually embarrassing to see where I’ve ended up… after having once so adamantly decided  - No More! …right...     It also bothers me to mention havinng even a smidgen of ... fun with my ‘once former’ BPgf ... . when so many are giving all they’ve got to forget theirs...   ... I’m sorry ... . and sometimes I feel downright weak... and stupid.  The friend I’d described as “my template for healthy” really lays into me (actually to the point of feeling breaking it off with her was a healthy thing) – telling how ‘self sabotaging’ I am and how much I must love getting my butt kicked by BPDgf…  Don’t know that I like it – but here we are again.  …and again, this being day 3 of ‘her’ camping trip (she texted a photo of some specially beer with the raging river behind it – I returned a shot of a weed root next to a Dr Pepper and my work boot from weeding my garden …alone).  She plays – I hold down the fort… 

“I suspect the healthier someone is mentally the better they would be equipped to handle being in a r/s with a pwBPD... and the less likely they would be to do so... ”

Perfect!  …didn’t know whether to laugh or bow at that one :) ... . as it gave me something to think about while I weeded.  Yah, wow...   OK – Now I’m laughing :) …not ‘at us,’ but ‘with us’  OK – really cracking up now |iiii

So, latching on to a BP is kinda like taking a shortcut to love?  Never thought of it that way, either.  But like theft – we really didn’t earn it?  …a frightening vision I’ve had is having stolen love from a child … until it morphs into an angry nail-spitting adult with thoughts of ‘Revenge!’   …I think you’ve been trying to explain to me that both partners are a little nuts …or a lot.

“She could play a crowd and have a likable persona/game face... . but it had nothing to do with what she was really like, it was acting... . ”

Seems what they do… especially the ‘high functioning’ type.  Any more, I’m not so ‘proud’ of my r/s with BPgf.  As mentioned, in the beginning, the mutual friends she’s so impressed seemed equally impressed with me, as I was with her.  Now, I’m not so sure …and the few things we’ve done as a couple in the last few recycles have not involved that crowd… 

“The nature of BPD... my pwBPD will never be cured... if she were, she wouldn't be the person I was drawn to like superglue... . so its either take it warts and all or end it…”

Yup

rj47 -  “My children grew up to be decent adults and thanked me for enduring through their childhood. They've suggested that she would not be alive today, but for the patience and longsuffering I endured.”

Well put…  it’s hard to look at stable young adults and consider their existence a mistake …no matter the price you paid... .   Considering my long-term marriage with Anxious wife, I’m beginning to get similar feedback from my daughters… 

“Simple CLARITY continues to elude me.”

…I’m 56, and apparently in the same boat  …but this ‘addiction, virus or parasite’ is relatively new to me.  She does remind me of a girl I sat next to in grade ('middle' school … we had so much fun we grew too close to become lovers in HS, but her wild edgy nature took us to a place ‘other’s at the table’ couldn't understand or keep up with.  Now, my BPgf reminds me of the same – with sex.  Is it us -- some hardwiring defect inhibiting our patients for ... normal? 

I have made a serious effort to meet up with woman friends for the last couple of months (of vacation) and away from my BPgf.  There is a draw – sometimes I feel myself light up due to ‘their clarity,’ their ‘non-drama,’ their common sense…  OK – Maybe it’s the fact I’ve not been set up by friends - called and encouraged to get together even before our ‘first date’ – out drinking - ended up at their house – and becoming semi-intimate within the week – all prior to our ‘first date!’  …after which – warp ten   ‘Normal’ hadn’t a chance!

“D*mn frustrating it is... . but definitely never boring.”

Guess life’s just a work in progress … as we scurry to add our contribution to the canvas…  Thanks for yours