BPDFamily.com

I started this topic in another thread however Scout99 suggested to me that it merited its own thread :)

I'm starting to ask myself do nons want to be treated badly?

I firmly believe that codependency is self-destructive.

Nons act like they want to be treated badly by in a variety of ways:

-exhibiting codependent behaviors

-trying to rescue the borderline

-tolerating emotional abuse

-putting up with unacceptable behavior

-not taking care of our own needs

-taking their devaluation as a personal affront instead of stepping back and detaching and realizing that it's just something they do in every romantic relationship-that it doesn't reflect who we are as people, that it's just a borderline's distorted view of us and may or may not be true... that it is emotional reasoning... an opinion as opposed to an actual fact. Borderlines haven't learned that feelings are not facts


-enabling borderlines-making excuses for their bead behavior

-trying to solve the borderline's problems instead of making them take personal responsibility for their own lives

-trying to soothe the borderline when they really have to start soothing themselves

-deriving self-esteem from our role as rescuer/fixer instead of developing genuine self-esteem from having a core sense of self... . from our achievements, our experiences etc. as opposed to our ability to "fix" one person

-not listening to our gut instinct and instead giving the person the benefit of the doubt

-having too much loyalty towards the person yet not getting that same loyalty in return

-staying in a one-sided relationship where our needs are not being met


-not realizing that we deserve better... that we are worthy... that it's not our job to "fix" someone else... that everyone has to be responsible for themselves

-believing words over actions

-trying to fix someone over and over again despite the failure of past attempts... not learning from past experiences... repeating the same mistake over and over again

-not listening to well-being friends and family who tell us that the person is "bad news" and thinking that we know better... no, we don't... we need to take advice from other people and realize that we don't know everything

-trying to psychoanalyze a borderline even though we're not professionals... we don't have phDs, we're not a psychiatrist etc... it's NOT our job to analyze them and come up with explanations as to why borderlines do certain things

-not moving on... ruminating... thinking of the borderline instead of getting on with our own lives


I'm actually getting tired of threads where people focus solely on the borderline's behavior... what about our own behavior? Society use words like "doormat" and "walkover" to describe codependent behaviors and I think that needs to be discussed here more.

I hated the words "codependent", "doormat" and walkover" before. I was in F.O.G. I felt that I was "selfish" or "a bad person" for asserting myself and having needs of my own. I was regularly told as a child that I was "a bhit" for expressing my own opinion so that had an indelible effect on my personality. In one sense, it made me incredibly feisty however in another sense, it made me attracted to "takers" in relationships.

I was in denial before too. I felt that the word "doormat" was too harsh-that it shouldn't be applied to me, just other people  folie

I would like to get a dialogue going on this issue with other members!  

I have a few questions-

Recovering From Codependency

-when did you realize that being codependent was a self-destructive habit?

-how did you begin to recover from codependency? What things have been useful for you in your recovery?

-do you feel guilty for taking care of yourself?

-how do you overcome that false/misplaced guilt that's triggered by taking care of yourself?

You know the saying 'love your neighbor as you love yourself'?  That needs to be turned around for codependents into 'love yourself as you love your neighbors'.

Very succinct RoseTiger!  Thank you musicfan for posting these thoughts and questions. The points you made were like barbed arrows of truth to me when I read them.

I can with certainty say no, I don't feel like I deserve bad treatment. Why then did I stay is the question, and at what cost to myself. I certainly tolerated all of the behaviours that you noted in your post.

I have been in only one relationship where I tolerated such behaviour and that was my 35 year marriage to my xBPDh. So, I have not been replacing one dysfunctional partner with another but rather trying to make my dysfunctional partner "normal".  For me it was the perfect storm of circumstances that partnered me with him. I grew up in a very dysfunctional family with little or no emotional support or love, I was young and needy of love. I had just broken up with my high school sweetie and was vulnerable. I was finishing college, the youngest in my class by two years and felt pressure to get engaged like many of my class mates. I met him and he pursued me relentlessly. I rebuffed him for several months until my room mate left for the summer. I was sucked in to the vortex of "love" and neediness.  I knew how to do neediness and confused it with love.

I have a personality abundant with love, compassion, empathy, loyalty, optimism and independence. I obviously don't give up easily and I thought he was deserving of all of my devotion because he didn't drink, he was faithful and he was honest. Those were my only boundaries. It was eventually finding out that no he didn't drink that made me leave.

It really wasn't until months later that I began to recognize how unhealthy my behaviours were. The very behaviours you noted. Over the years I lost myself. I lost my ability to truly care, I lost my ability to reason, I lost my ability to understand what love is, I lost my ability to recognize my own needs, to cry or to feel anger, I lost my passion for life, not just in an intimate sense but one involving all the senses. But I had such a strong and forceful personality that I was able to  emulate it to such a degree that not only were others not aware but I had fooled myself as well. It was arriving at that understanding that allowed me to begin knocking down walls and rebuilding my self.

So that was my one and only relationship in which I allowed myself to be abused. I am now educated, I have resources and wisdom obtained from the hard work of self examination. My job now is to empower my daughters. I did better for them than my mother did for me. Now I stand beside them teaching them and encouraging them to do better again with their children. The cycle of emotional abuse will stop here in my family.

Cumulus. 

Thanks for your responses guys! 

RoseTiger-I totally agree! I actually had the same thought myself before so it's really coincidental that you mention it now! :)

Cumulus-I think you sound like a such a strong woman-to leave a long marriage and start working on yourself... . that type of thing takes a lot of courage and you should be applauded for it! :) I like what you say about ending the cycle and wanting to empower your daughters! I think it's great that you're willing to learn. You're right-self-examination IS hard work.

I understand how my points seemed like barbed arrows of truth. I used to hate the words "doormat" and "walkover" because I secretly feared that I was those very things. But yesterday, I thought "why am I so afraid of those words?" and really just faced my fear there. I wrote about my codependency from an objective viewpoint, not an emotional one. I thought "okay... what would a stranger say about my behavior-someone who had no loyalty to me, someone who didn't even know me... someone unbiased in other words". It was tough to write my post-I wouldn't have been able to write it even a few months ago. I wasn't ready then... I wasn't at that stage. I feel like I'm peeling my issues back a layer at a time. 

Great thread musicfan!

Thoughtful questions too:

I have a few questions-

Recovering From Codependency

-when did you realize that being codependent was a self-destructive habit?

-how did you begin to recover from codependency? What things have been useful for you in your recovery?

-do you feel guilty for taking care of yourself?

-how do you overcome that false/misplaced guilt that's triggered by taking care of yourself?

For me it was only at the beginning of this BPD journey that I consciously reaslised that being CoDep was self-destructive. (I think, or like to believe, that I was aware on a deeper level that it was unhealthy). And understanding that I had a lot of self value attached to my role of helping others was a lightbulb moment for me, this has been hard to untangle to make it healthy.

Reading, awareness, and my T have helped me in my recovery.

Yes sometimes I feel guilty for taking care of myself, more of mama guilt kind of stuff, so I do force myself!

I overcome this by reminding myself how important it is, how I Do Not want to fall back into the Martyr role either! That I am number one and need to take care of myself before I can take care of my family, it sure can be uncomfortable at times, but it is getting easier too!

How about you? How would you answer your own questions?

Love Blazing Star

Thanks Blazing Star for your response :)

I realized that codependency was an issue years ago. I read "Codependent No More" back then however I hated it. It's only now that I can actually stand to read the book and not be triggered by it. I felt that it was very wishy-washy-that it was fine in theory but not in practice. I didn't like the term "codependent" either. I felt that the 12 step format was fine for addiction but not so great for interpersonal relationships.

Once I started doing assertiveness training, things fell into place. I feel like the word "codependent" demonizes people who just have weak/spongy boundaries. I don't think it's an addiction but merely a learned behavior that someone can unlearn. I've talked about that before here so I'm not going to ramble on about it again but you get the idea.

I found DBT really helpful actually. I know that it's designed specifically for borderlines however I found the interpersonal effectiveness section really easy to use. I even found DEARMAN easy because I had previously read complicated books on assertiveness and thought "oh I'll never get the hang of this". It's like DBT simplifies all these helpful coping tools in easy-to-remember acronyms.

I tried other things, don't get me wrong but that was the most useful thing for me personally.

I still feel guilty for taking care of myself however that sense of guilt is lessening the more time goes on. So I think it's just a matter of "practice makes perfect".

I think that I overcame that false/misplaced guilt by setting firmer boundaries-realizing that I wasn't responsible for other people and that I couldn't fix the entire world, just myself!

Thanks musicfan42 for creating this important thread!

For me it took a three year long walking on eggshell kind of relationship with a narcissist and being in a state of total devastation after the freezing discard and a lot of therapy to finally come to the conclusion that I was having problems with myself!

I have always thought I grew up in a very loving home, an only child with two loving parents devoting their lives to me... . What could really be wrong with that picture?

Apparently a lot!

What I didn't understand then, but I do now is that my mother pretty much consumed my self for herself... . She really didn't know, (and still doesn't), where she ended and I began, and it grew into a very enmeshed relationship... . Apart from that she also had a very unstable mood. That is when she was happy, she was very loving and attentive of me. But when she was not happy, it felt to me like her love also vanished... .

To a large degree her happiness was also connected to me doing what she wanted and she even expected me to like and think just like she did... . I was really supposed to be a bit of a mini-her... .

Now as a child I quickly learned that in order to get my mothers love I had to keep her happy, so I made it my job to do just that... . Pleasing her in every way I could think of... .

My father didn't treat me quite the same way. He was more laid back, and in a way, that made me feel more at ease with him, while at the same time craving my mothers liking since she was more, how shall I put it, bombastic or passionate in her way of loving and appreciating me, when I pleased her... .

But it was also a bit of walking on eggshells, since my mom of course picked up on my comfort level being with my dad, making her extremely jealous. So showing affection towards my father came with a price... . And I often found myself defending him, when she became jealous and at the same time trying even harder to please her to make amends from my disloyalty in loving my dad too... .

In my adolescence I did make an attempt to break free... . I was creative and artistic and wanted to pursue that as a profession... . Which of course was not met with any enthusiasm on my mothers part, (even though it was because of her putting me in all these artistic classes when I was a kid that was the reason I wanted to continue in that field... .  ).

She instead wanted me to do what she wanted for herself when she was my age, and she had no interest in anything artistic... . So she gave me the silent treatment for the better part of a year I took acting classes just to name one example. She also, usually in outbursts of hysterical proportions, used to threaten to leave my father, with the really screwed up reasoning that he and I would be better off without her since I didn't want to do as she told me to?

I fought it for a while, broke contact, moved abroad for a year... . But ended up defending my father, who really should have stood up for me at this time, but instead begged me to come home since my mother was so depressed by all this... .

And eventually I chose to leave my dreams on the shelf (for more than 20 years), and instead pursued a career in a field that would please her, to salvage their marriage... .

I realize now that is the point where I truly abandoned myself, and quit living and instead began to exist... . for whomever had any need of me... .

This is also a time of my life I have very few memories from, so I realize today it was a time of turmoil for me, that I had buried for a long time... .

Needless to say it taught me some pretty warped ideas of what an intimate relationship is supposed to be about... . Me pleasing the other party. And the other party being happy because of it and in return rewarding me with passionate affection and appreciation... . in short, validating me... .

It is only a few years ago I began to realize how this whole treatment during my upbringing pretty much had robbed me of my identity... . I did not have an unstable sense of self, like a pw BPD... . I was actually worse off... . I had no identity... .

I couldn't even say what kind of music or what kind of food I really liked, Let alone what I really wanted to do in my life. And definitely not how to be in a relationship... . (I was however an expert of figuring out what the person asking me of it would like me to answer)... .  

But I knew one thing! I knew how to please another person and I could pretty much like a chameleon fit into any type of social situation... .

That is until I met my narcissist bf... . Since with him there were simply no pay off at the end... . once the idealization phase was over... . There was no reward at all for all of my efforts to please him! And that left me more lost and bewildered than I had ever felt before... . I felt that if he abandoned me I was no one... . so I tried everything I had... . to no avail... . The end of that relationship did not just leave me heartbroken... . I, as in myself was broken to the core of my being... . I felt like I was no one... . Or at least I didn't know who I was... .

I had not been abandoned as a child... . I had abandoned myself... . And now I had to find her... .

The thing is... . my trained pleasing behavior worked in the family setting where I was brought up... . And in real life it pretty much worked too... . Most people like to be pleased, and there usually is a reward to be collected at the end of that too... . It became somewhat comfortable to keep it up, I mean we tend to keep behaviors as long as they pay off. And it did... . It was just that it was on the expense of abandoning myself... .

Going through the different stages of finding myself again and defining who I really am through therapy and a lot of self discovering has been without a doubt some of the hardest and most painful things I have ever done... . And I am only half way there yet, as it feels today... . It pretty much means staying in a zone of discomfort all the time going against my instincts in pretty much every situation. And some days I am exhausted just from having to make all these decisions about what I want and how I feel! I am used to just going along with whatever other people want from me or feels. And it is at times still tempting to do so... . Because I don't have to be responsible at all in the way I have to when I have to be... . me... .

When I saw all this, It became clear to me why I was drawn into relationships with ___ed up men... . Usually because they were better at copying my mothers behavior, and reward me with a lot of passion, intensity and if lucky also intimacy... .

So I can pretty much say that I have not been co-dependent. I learned that love was something you had to pay a price for. And the price was pleasing. And the more I pleased, the bigger the reward... . I simply just learned that love was conditional... . And I accepted it, because I was a good pleaser... .

When in relationships with men who really have treated me well from an objective perspective, I have often after a while begun to feel bored... . There is just not enough magic or passion, a.k.a... . not enough of reward for my efforts... . I stuck it out for ten years with a really decent man who I am still friends with, but I left him in the end, because my feelings just dropped... . He did not want me to please him at all... . And then in the end I just didn't understand what I was supposed to do... . Today I can see that it was because that really left me all alone with my lost identity... . And that was an uncomfortable place to be in... .

Don't get me wrong here... . I have never been someone you could push around in a workplace or in doing what I am asked to do... . I can be quite assertive... . But in matters of the heart and when it boils down to what I want, think or feel on a personal level - I have been completely clueless!

Today a lot has changed! I am back in university, studying what I at least think I really want to do. I enjoy myself at least sometimes and I live in a completely different way from before... . Still a bit curious about where I will end up... .   folie And still sometimes very uncomfortable about having to ask myself what I want, and accept the frustration at times I just don't know the answer... . I have startled many of my friends by saying "no" sometimes, they almost react as if I want to piss them off... . , since they are so used to me just going along with whatever they want... . But the good ones have learned to cope and enjoy the "new" me too... . And that helps me keep going... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

I've reached a point in my recovery where I not only know, but also genuinely (finally!) feel like I never "deserved" to be treated badly.

But I'm also at a point where I can see how - growing up with an uNPD/BPD rager of a nightmare mom - I was taught, learned, became habituated to, and felt like it was "normal" for me to be treated this way - that I (not surprisingly under the circumstances) subconsciously associated this kind of treatment with being "loved" - and just as subconsciously, therefore, tended to look for/attach myself romantically to partners who treated me and made me feel that way (at least to some extent) as well.

In that way, while I never actually felt or believed I ever deserved to be treated badly, I do think I asked for it by looking for, and being attracted primarily to people who treated me that way, ignoring/denying/dismissing/excusing/taking the blame for being treated that way by them in any one of several equally co-dependent/self-deprecating ways, and reinforcing the acceptability of being treated this way by continuing to let them treat me this way pretty much for as long as they were willing, able, interested in doing so.

It took me a very long time to recognize and own up to how my own programming/core identity played into both my initial interest in, and ability to sustain this kind of relationship for over 12 years as well as why I was so devastated/hung on so long unable to move forward after it was over.

Owning that, however, allowed the still emotionally underdeveloped inner lonely child part of me to feel like we were even enough for me to finally be able let go of the sense of inequity and associated resentment/anger that had been keeping me still very much attached to my ex for almost three years.

I still have resentment/anger about other things which is, of course, keeping me attached. But much less than before, and with this success, am more committed/hopeful than ever that I'll eventually find a way to be free of him altogether.

That brings up another thought, about how some of us never had protection growing up, not only at home but say a bully at school or teachers that bullied.  

In seventh grade english I was reading a book totally engrossed and the teacher pulled the chair out from under me screaming that he told us to clean up.  It never entered my brain to tell someone about this.    I never had anyone stand up for me.  It makes the world a very scary place when anyone at anytime can abuse you and there is nothing you can do about it.  There must be a vibe that goes out that tells the world, it's ok to be cruel to this one.  Blech.

After I got my dog a couple years ago, my ex who had been physically abusive to me, went to tickle me.  The dog jumped up (he's big) and knocked ex's arms off of me.  Totally cool to be protected. Even from tickling.  Lord help anyone who tries to harm me with that dog around.  Feels good!

I suppose the codependence formed to attempt to make the world a safer place.  Trying to keep ex happy was my attempt to protect myself.  The inability to stand up for myself and say that is not cool to treat me like that because if I did, the underlying message was that he'd leave.  But no matter what I tried, he emotionally abandoned me anyway.  Weird how I kept trying to get people that can't love, to love me.  And feel it was because I was unlovable.  It's great to finally see the pattern and break free of it.

Thanks guys for your comments!   It's really nice to talk to people here who are also focused on personal growth! :)

I understand that it's helpful to look back and see where your communication style originated-whether that is a passive/passive-aggressive/assertive/aggressive communication style. I think it makes sense-that you have to understand the problem before you can fix it.

I was reading recently that communication style is not only influenced by your environment growing up but also by your temperament and by your personality. The book gave an example of how two men grew up in a house where the father was an aggressive communicator. Son #1 subsequently adopted an aggressive communication style as he felt that he had to get his needs met at any cost. Son #2 adopted a passive communication style because he was afraid of his father's anger and realized that if he stayed quiet, then his father would stop raging. This made him be afraid to rock the boat and want to keep the peace in different situations.

I'm going to read more books on this issue as I find reading examples like that is really helpful!


Scout99-It's interesting that you say that you're assertive in some areas of your life but maybe less so in other areas. I feel that I'm the same-that I have firm boundaries in many areas of my life but that I need to brush up on it in my personal life. That's another reason why I feel that codependency terminology can be sometimes undermining and unhelpful. It's important to also focus on our strengths and to build up what we already have. To recognize that we are doing many things right already and not just berate ourselves for human error. I feel that it's important to get a balance between validating ourselves for our strengths vs working on problem areas.

I also can relate to what you say about how pwBPD have an unstable sense of self but that you felt you had no sense of self at all. That comment really resonated with me. I didn't feel that I had an internal compass or a map guiding me in life. I felt very cast adrift so I almost looked to other people for guidance really. I wasn't attuned to my thoughts/emotions/gut instinct years ago... I didn't trust myself let alone know what my emotional needs were. It's been a process, figuring that out-uncovering my thoughts, feelings, gut instinct and emotional needs. It's as if I'm unpeeling an onion, layer by layer.


talithacumi-You really hit the nail on the head there! That you learned that it was "normal" for you to be treated that way and that you subconsciously associated that kind of treatment with being "loved". The word "subconsciously" is really important because I think nobody deliberately becomes codependent-it just sort of... happens, unbeknownst to yourself and it's only after interpersonal difficulties that you start assessing your life and then you uncover all this stuff that you didn't even realize was there in the first place! I think that's probably why it's so important that we all treat ourselves kindly in this process as it is hard work!

I can understand where you're coming from when you say that you still have resentment/anger. I'm relieved that you've said that as I've really struggled with feelings of anger and resentment. I feel like a lot of people here talk about many different emotions but that anger isn't mentioned enough. Maybe it's a societal no-no... that anger is deemed an unacceptable emotion?  I don't know-that's just a guess! I don't think there's anything wrong with anger though provided that you handle it appropriately. I think that identifying and naming all emotions, including anger is really such a healthy thing to do.


Rose Tiger-I was about to post my comment when I noticed your response! Good job too as your comment is so insightful! There is a lot of wisdom in what you say-there were times for me too where nobody stood up for me and many times when I felt completely alone and unprotected. It made me cling to anyone who I thought would protect me because without that, I was going to be totally on my own. I didn't realize that I had a fear of abandonment until my BPD ex mentioned his!  

I agree with you that codependency can be an unconscious way of trying to stay in control-of attempting to make the world a safer place as you say. I totally know what you mean when you say "I kept trying to get people that can't love, to love me. And feel it was because I was unlovable". Omg yes! I would think "what's wrong with me?" I'd literally sit there and try to work out what was "wrong" with me. It's so sad to reflect back on now but as you say, it's great to see the pattern and break free of it.

If you are interested in seeing a movie that plays out the whole codependence process, from beginning to healing, check out End of Innocence with Dyan Cannon.  It's her autobiography story and it might ring a lot of bells for you.

In a sad way -- yes. Honestly for me, if I can't "help" or "fix" my partner in some way shape or form I don't know why she'd want me. If I don't have that to offer what do I have to offer? The relationship seems pointless and meaningless unless there's problems for me to step up to the plate and fix. Therefore -- I accept emotional abuse... .

Dave  :'(  You have intelligence, kindness, a soft heart, that is A LOT.

Pondering this more, the big thing on this site, a main point is 'we teach others how to treat us'.  This is what I'm pondering, how do we teach others to treat us right?  Boundaries against the unsafe folks, check.  But that vibe, how to turn it around?  The whole power thing.  Like Gisele and Tom Brady, net worth $350M, tons of respect.  But I have more like $3.50.  Hitler, Osama, narcissists extraordinaire, terror, abuse, that got respect.  As my T says, I couldn't hurt a fly, and that's true, I couldn't, so being a dictactor arsehole is out.  A baby demands respect, just by being so... . so... . I don't know, dignified.  If that makes sense.

How do we teach people to treat us with dignity and respect?  I see how BPD ex did it, by being a unlit powderkeg, ready to go off any minute.  The narcissist, garnering support for the very bad ex and we rush to their side to champion 'poor them'.  It's like we are all after that power to not be treated like crap.  And yes, it is exhausting to always be on the lookout for it, was that a dig?  Was that a swipe?  Am I being too assertive?  How do others do this so effortlessly?  I'm ready for a cabin in the woods, tend a garden and just live in peace.  :)

Thanks for the recommendation Rose Tiger! :)

I think you're really honest Dave and that's a nice quality to have. Codependents tend to base their self-worth on their ability to fix other peoples' problems. It's good that you're here, seeking support.

No one deserves emotional abuse. You are a human being so you have a right to be treated with respect and dignity. You have inherent worth just by the fact that you're a human being. Rose Tiger mentions that celebrities and political figures have a lot of power in society however authority figures may abuse their powers so that's all the more reason why everyone needs to be assertive and demand to be treated with respect.

I think some of it, too, is letting bad behavior be owned by the disrespectful person.  That shows what they are, the behavior reflects their inner self.  Not letting it take us down a peg just because another throws some crap our way.  I mean, not letting others dictact our worth.

I put up with some awful treatment from the ex, all over the fear of being alone.  My T had to practically drag me away, kicking and screaming.  Because of this deep intense fear.  Turns out it wasn't that bad, I had it built up much bigger than it really has been.  Other things and people fill the void.  The further out you get, the more you wish you had left a lot sooner.

musicfan42 wrote:


Yes... . this part was the hardest shell to break in myself when I began i therapy... . My instinct told me I was assertive, and I was and am - in areas that are not about relationships or come close to my heart, if you will... . But totally the opposite when it comes to relationships.

In the beginning I had a hard time accepting that fact... . And felt wrong all over the board so to speak... . But instead - just like you put it. We need to use our strengths! And I just needed to learn, and am still learning how to transfer my assertiveness in other areas also into matters of the heart... . It is tough work... . and it feels at times as going totally against everything I ave up to now believed to be true... . but I need it... .

Glad to here someone else could relate to it, since sometimes I have felt a bit alone in this... .

And I agree with you that the term co dependency does not fully explain this, or doesn't quite fit the bill... . this really goes deeper than that... . I believe... .

musicfan42 wrote:


Yes! Exactly like that! First unpeeling the onion to find out what the core of me really is... . to get reconnected with the person, I once abandoned... . And then start listening to her, and let her guide me in choosing what new layers to put on, instead of the band aid versions I have been carrying around... .

it is a hard job too, that sometimes however also can be quite funny, when I discover something I never before realized I liked or found important... . The hard part is to keep listening to that still weak inner voice of the true me, and not fall back into old habits... .

Must say too - very interesting posts in this thread! I hope it will live on for a while!

Best Wishes

Scout99

Recovering From Codependency


I think it started to sink in and I had some ah-ha moments about two years into the relationship with my ex and after about one year of posting on this board, mostly on staying. I was ranting about what a jerk my ex was being... . and I started to get a lot of really strong feedback that basically said, if he's such a complete jerk... . what the heck is going on with you that you are staying in this dynamic with him?  I realized I was kind of being a jerk myself (who loves someone that they are describing as possibly evil or predatory?) I began to realize that I had some issues with fixing and staying really obsessed and preoccupied with HIS behavior exclusively and was doing nothing to make myself more comfortable, happy, at ease and my boundaries were very confused... . I started slowly to get in touch with ownership of my own life and my own choices.  It took about two years of reading this site and lots of books and articles and it was the first time I really started to have light bulb moments about what the word "CD" really was about. I'd heard and used the word loosely for years... . but, I really didn't get it until I was in this r/s and talking about it on this board.



By turning my focus onto my own  self-care. What makes me happy? What feeds my soul? What made me happy before I met my ex? What does it mean to take care of myself? Am I getting enough rest, eating well, exercise, balancing work with relaxation?  If I say NO to any of these with the excuse that "I'm just so overwhelmed with XYZ that I can't take care of myself... . that's my #1 cue that my issues with CD are starting to make an appearance.  Seriously, I didn't go to the dentist or a doctor appt. for like 5 years because I was too busy and stressed out with my ex.  That is just B.S.  If I'm not taking care of myself, then I'm not being a grown up. No excuses.


If it's basic health and life issues, it actually makes me feel better; I notice my self esteem goes up almost immediately when I exercise, get rest, eat good food, create a safe home for myself, etc. when I take care of my basic needs I feel better and more at ease.  Sometimes it means cutting out time that I may have used to work or provide for others, so, maybe a little guilt, but the pay off is pretty immediate because it makes me feel like I'm on the right path.  If I do something to take care of myself in a relationship that involves saying No or disappointing someone else... . I do feel a sensation in my body almost immediately that I call 'guilt' or 'anxiety'. I try to just notice it as a feeling,  and not give it as much power over my behavior as I use to.  I consider it, but I don't let it drive the bus.


I think you have to accept the discomfort of sitting with the feeling and just noticing it without judging it or acting on it. Any feeling is a packet of energy that resides in the body, it comes and it goes.  I try to just let it come, and then it goes... . no feeling lasts forever.  I try not to take it as seriously as I used to. I try not to 'fix it'.  I just let be there until it's not. It can be pretty uncomfortable for a while, but it doesn't last forever.

Rose Tiger-I think you were really brave to leave the relationship. It's natural to have a fear of being alone, especially after you're used to being in a relationship however I think it's good that you decided to take the leap and leave the relationship. I totally agree with you that the fear of being alone is much worse than the actual reality of being alone. I didn't want to be alone because I worried that I'd spend too much time thinking by myself. I can be quite obsessive about things so my way of overcoming that was always to keep busy, to distract myself. I feel that I've been in relationships and friendships in the past purely to distract myself from my own issues as opposed to actually having a good connection with the person. It was easier for me to focus on other peoples' issues as opposed to my own issues. I felt in control when I gave people advice whereas I felt a real sense of helplessness/powerlessness when it came to my own problems. I still don't discuss my problems with people very often.

I discussed a FOO (Family of Origin) issue a while back with someone however the conversation didn't go well at all. I felt that the person invalidated me and my experience and it left me utterly inconsolable that day. I experienced such anger, rage... such hurt! I still find it hard talking about my FOO issues. I can talk about my own issues like my struggle to find a stable sense of identity for ages and not feel uncomfortable however the FOO issues trigger me. I know that's because there's still a lot of emotional pain there. I'm being gentle with myself by not forcing it... by realizing that I'm not ready to talk about it in detail and just giving myself space to process it. I tend to push myself a lot however I'm realizing that I also have to respect my personal limitations-that I have to say "look I don't feel safe dealing with this just yet" to myself and feel okay about that. I actually try not to think about FOO issues so much and just focus on the present because I find that dwelling on the FOO issues tends to lead to constant rumination, feelings like sadness, anger etc, self-destructive behaviors. I hope that I get to a point where I can deal with my feelings around my FOO issues without acting those feelings out. I can deal with my feelings in the present however I feel utterly flummoxed when I think of the past.

Scout99-how do you do quote pieces of text multiple times?

I know what you mean when you say that you have felt a bit alone in this. I had an enmeshed relationship with my mother so that's where my codependent behavior came from. I had an antagonistic relationship with my father so that made me somewhat aggressive in other areas of life. I struggled to find a balance so it was such a relief when I learned that I could be assertive.

I was reading a book called "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Manuel J. Smith. It mentioned that there are different types of relationships. There is a defined structure for interactions in the workplace whereas in your personal life, there isn't. I felt a sense of relief reading that because I thought "oh there's a reason why I find relationships harder to navigate". I knew before that I was seeking structure in my personal life but I didn't really know why until I read that passage. I thought "aha! I get it now".

I can relate when you say that it feels like you're going against everything you believed before. I've felt like that before however you have the right to change your mind. I actually think it's psychologically healthy to demonstrate some flexibility-to not lock yourself into all or nothing thinking and be open to new possibilities.

Change feels very scary though. It feels uncomfortable. It's hard to tolerate that discomfort-to not just go back to my old ways. I've gone back to my old ways at times and then felt an enormous sense of guilt and self-hatred afterwards. I tend to expect perfection of myself-that I'll do everything perfectly so I've felt disappointed with myself for lapsing back into old ways again.

I'm getting good at seeking support though. I used to think that I had to do all this on my own. I was in therapy however I didn't discuss my feelings with anyone in my actual life and that was hard. I would have a 1hr session with a therapist but then I'd feel alone the rest of the week. I had huge issues asking for help. I felt embarrassed, ashamed so that was a huge obstacle to overcome. I also worried that people would judge me. I was in a 12 step group and they had a slogan "principles not personalities" and that has helped me so much. It basically means to focus on working on your own issues as opposed to seeking validation from others. They say to apply it to the 12 step meeting however I actually apply it to my whole life now.

You mention "the weak inner voice of the true me". I feel that the voice of the true me has gotten stronger over time but even now, I can  still succumb to old habits. It's interesting that you use the word "weak" because I tend to feel that my true self is weak... vulnerable. That was the reason I used all sorts of defense mechanisms in the first place... to mask that emotional vulnerability. I can be so strong in some ways yet so sensitive in others. I try not to box myself into one category though because I feel that everyone is three dimensional... that we can all have many different personal qualities.

I notice that you say too: "to get reconnected with the person I once abandoned". Yes, I can totally relate to this. I felt abandoned by my father so that caused me to abandon myself in turn. I felt that if he didn't love me, then there must be something wrong with me. It made me feel a lot of shame about my identity so I tried to be someone else. It took me time to see things from an objective viewpoint-that his parental failures were not my fault.

maybeso-wow, I really like your answers there. I still struggle with feelings of guilt for taking care of myself so I definitely appreciate your insight into handling that. That's pretty much why I started this thread in the first place-to see what tactics people used to overcome that sense of guilt. As I was saying before, I used to find it hard to ask for help whereas now I'm more inclined to say "ok, I'm struggling here, I need help" and reach out for the help.

Interesting revelations MF.  I've been reading the Divergent series for fun.  In it, the main character joins a group called the Dauntless.  They are put through some rigorous training to overcome their fears by using aversion therapy, by facing the fears, they fear has less of an affect on them.  Just another thing I've been thinking about lately, facing fears to overcome them.  :light:

Thank you for this.

I have been split in my feelings about the bad treatment I received. I was with a very projective uBPD/narc who threw back at me all the (correct) criticisms and observations I made about how unbalanced the relationship was, how much I was expected to take and give.

I had a very abusive FOO. A mother who told me constantly how I had ruined her life, how I was ungrateful, ugly, ridiculous. I adopted the victim pose and was bullied at school too. It's a bit of a sad tale really.

I covered it up with a veneer of gloss as I got older. UBPD ex tapped into my worst fear at the end: that I am indeed ugly, crazy, horrible, a bhit who will always be alone.

I still cry every day feeling these feelings of intense loneliness and unworthiness.

But I know there is a different side to me too. One that is kind and that tried to make things work and look after someone as I wanted to be looked after. It was misguided. But it was an attempt to create something good.

I need, need need to look after myself, heal the terrible pain I am in day and night. The fear that wakes me up at night, that I am nothing, worthless. That life will erase me. I need to find kindness to myself, somewhere.

With uBPD ex I veered constantly between forgiveness/doormat behaviour and attacks of rage where I would leave him and tell him exactly what I thought of him. This led to accusations of me being the crazy one, a 'psychopath', a bhit, a nightmare. He saw himself as a hero putting up with me. Whereas in fact I was funding the entire relationship; I provided the home, the food, even his clothes a lot of the time; I am the one who (just about!) holds down a job and brings up kids. He was not the hero. But he made me feel what I thought I was all along. A total piece of ___... . yet he put up with me.

How's that for amessage from the FOO :D 'you are unlovable, but you are mine'. My mother's message.

I hope for us all, that healing can come. Every morning now I wake up afraid of dying alone and still in pain, still hating myself. Sometimes I'd rather die now, than feel like that another minute. But I know I must go on. I have children whom I love, who love me.

a big hug to all.

xxx

There are two ways you can make quotes and both of them allows you to do it multiple times... . :)

The one above here is made using the quote link in the top of every post... . if you push that you'll get the whole text in your new post as a quote. But you can edit it! First take out all the text you don't want to quote so you are left with the pieces you want. Make sure you don't cut out the "code" at the top - that looks like this:

(quote author=musicfan42 link=topic=207450.msg12301460#msg12301460 date=1377045021) (but with ][ around it not parentheses... . )

You also don't want to remove the small code at the end of your original quote that looks like almost like this: [ /quote ] (but without spaces... . )

When you have arranged the different parts of the texts you want to quote the way you want them - then you can copy and paste the long code at the top and the small code at the bottom. Make sure you do it around each quote! When posting it will put the separate quotes in a purple box with designation at the top from which post and who wrote it.

Make sure though you only have codes around the actual quotes you want, so you don't leave extra codes anywhere since that will make the whole thing purple if you are unlucky... . It is easy to modify though! :)

This is really way easier than it sounds... . Just hard to explain for a computer analphabet like me... . *)



The other way to quote does not show who wrote what and when, but is perhaps even easier technically. Here you just take out the part of the text you want to quote and then use the little button in above the posting area where you write. (where you also find the buttons to make texts bold for example). There is a button that looks like a speaking bubble from a cartoon. Press that and you will get two codes beside each other and then you can just insert the text between them. It will result in a purple button containing the quote, but if you want to add who wrote the quote then you will have to add that yourself, either by spelling it out outside the quoted piece or together with the quote... .

To make multiple quotes like that, you either cut out a larger chunk of the text you want to copy from and then edit out the pieces you want in your own post and cut away the parts you don't. (Or you need to have two windows open with the post you want to quote from, since you cannot copy from the "topic summary" below the posting area... . A.k.a cut from the post in one window and then paste in your posting area in the other... . ).

There is no limit to how many times you can use the quote button in the posting area.

I am terrible at explaining these things!   So good luck!

I'll get back to you on some thoughts and reflexions later! :)

Best Wishes

Scout99

Scout99-thanks for the instructions... . much appreciated!

RoseTiger-yes, I totally agree with you there... that facing the fear is the answer

Delusionalxox-yep, I've veered from being passive into being aggressive in past relationships. I've realized that it's a sign of a dysfunctional/abusive relationship. I know when I get that angry, then there's something seriously wrong within the relationship. I think that anger is a sign of something seriously amiss... that my boundaries are being overrode-that I'm being taken for granted in the relationship. It's not that I'm against feelings of anger per se however I can only speak about my own experiences really and other peoples' experiences may be totally different.

Hi MF - good post!

I read the book "Women who love too much" in my early twenties and it resonated with me. I knew already that I did more than the other person did in my r/s's. I was lucky though that I was involved with healthy men so the traits didnt come to the surface so much.

Still my friends would tell me I did too much for my then partner (like picking him up from nights out at 2.30am etc etc) . When I met my now BPD boyfriend the ___ really hit the fan... .

It all came out. I couldnt understand my own behaviours - I had always had them but they had not had such a wide avenue to roam unchecked before! I started accepting things that I had always said I would run a mile from. I started losing myself. Still have really. Still learning. I went to some co-dep meetings and need to restart them - Like Maybeso said - I missed lots because I was too stressed with my BPDbf's behaviors etc! Yep I definately NEEDED to go if I was missing them for THAT reason! So back on those again this week!

I think its interesting that the BPD's have often had similar childhoods to the co-dependants. It seems like the coping mechanisms are different. I wonder why some abusive childhoods end with a BPD child and some with a co-dep child? My b/f and I both had abusive childhoods and we are both sensitive people. It's not a competition or anything ( lol) but my childhood was way more abusive than my b/fs was - I wonder why I ended up co-dep and him as borderline?

I have some serious work to do on myself. My r/s with my BPD bf has alerted me to this fact. I am trying to make little steps. I try to say no more to my friends and they find this a shock (like Scout I am quite assertive in some areas but not in relationships) i am trying to make plans regardless of my b/f but this is early days. Its wierd as in past r/s i always made my own plans with no problems AT ALL! I think the lack of security in this r/s is the thing that throws me off balance. Like I always have to be available or trtying so hard with him. In the healthier r/s's of my past the r/s would be a solid base from which I would work from with my own life. The lack of solid base has made me feel I have to get the base solid and THEN I can have my own life. Not a good thing at all - just saying how I see myself atm. My b/f said to me once "If you spent as much time thinking of yourself as you do about me you would be much happier". He is right. Yesterday I was a bit low. I tried an excercise and tried to gve myself the advice I would give to my b/f if he was a bit low ... . get nice clothes on, wash hair, eat well, rest, do something constructive with your day, call a friend etc etc... . it worked. Wierd That I have to pretend I am my bf to look after myself! At least I am becoming aware of these things. long process i suspect... .

Thanks Connect :)

Is the book "Women Who Love Too Much" good? What type of recommendations does it make?

How are you finding the Codependent meetings?

I've realized that I AM codependent. I was so disgusted by the idea that it was an addiction. I was determined to fix it myself through working on my assertiveness skills etc... just boost my confidence.

And sure, working on my assertiveness has helped improve my behavior however I'm still left with obsessive thinking and mindfulness isn't really cutting it. I can keep up mindfulness for about 5 minutes and that's it. I tried to practice self-compassion and it was a total flop for me. I like the idea in theory however it hasn't worked for me in practice. So I feel like the 12 steps gets rid of the obsessive thinking.

I also feel a bit of a "dry drunk" right now-that I'm not actively being codependent... that I've quit for the moment under my own steam but I'm still feeling very angry... restless, irritable and discontent. I notice that when I stop being codependent by myself, it feels like an uphill battle-like giving up cigarettes for example. It feels like I'll crack at any minute and just give in... . I've been experiencing a battle between my emotional mind (heart) and my reasonable mind (head) and I didn't have any wise mind. I don't like mindfulness so I actually need the 12 steps to access the "wise mind" part. If other people find mindfulness and self-compassion helpful, then good for them but it just hasn't worked for me personally!

I actually ended up googling the book "Codependent No More" online today. I literally hated that book before... I flicked through it in a library and thought "yeah, I know all of this" and never looked at it again. I felt so disappointed because I thought "why are people raving about this book-it's useless". Whereas now, I'm coming back to the book after doing DBT and CBT and it makes a lot more sense. I realize now that when I was reading it before, it triggered a lot of feelings of shame on my part. I could relate to all of it but I didn't want to. I didn't want to be associated with that kind of thing. I didn't want to call myself "codependent". It felt like I was calling myself a loser really... just a total sign of defeat.

I only fully realized just how codependent I am today. I was complaining about a situation to a friend and this friend ended up confronting me about my B.S. I felt incredibly angry with this friend but I reflected on it and realized that they had a point. I was going to say "they were right" but no-I still don't agree with them 100% however some of it definitely was common sense.

There was a part in the Codependent No More book that caught my idea today... that you could just feel compassion for someone and not act on it! I've learned that I can feel anger and not act on it so why not compassion? It sounds kind of messed up... not acting on compassion however the book pointed out that codependents typically overreact to situations.

There was a chapter on reacting as opposed to responding to situations. I'm fairly okay with that now however there was another chapter on detachment vs attachment. I don't think being attached to someone is a bad thing however with codependents, it seems to be a case of OVERattachment... again, overdoing it really. And overdoing anything isn't a good thing-there has to be some kind of a balance.

I'm realizing now too just how useless the CODA meeting I went to was. I went to it for ages yet I never learned any of this! My al-anon meeting was better however I didn't relate to any of the other people there so that was another barrier. I felt like the really mouthy outsider... which is weird because sometimes even here on this forum, I feel like the "outspoken one"... the one who just says how I feel and then is told that I wasn't diplomatic enough... that it's implied that I was rude or thoughtless or whatever. This is a trigger for me because growing up, I never felt entitled to my opinion. I'm really opinionated however any time I stated my opinion as a child, I got into trouble. It feels like a pattern that has followed me ever since. And that is hard.

I'm also dating a really self-contained man right now so that isn't helping me either. He is the type of person who is so self-possessed. He doesn't have my emotional outbursts... he never gets angry. Well, I think he has emotions but they're all repressed/bottled up. I know that he feels excited around me because I'm the total opposite but it's getting on my nerves. I feel like I have to "perform" for him in the relationship-that when I'm calm, he's not as attracted to me as when I'm being over dramatic about something.

I just wonder now whether a lot of men here are attracted to female borderlines because they're emotionally repressed and then here comes this female borderline that taps into all their emotions and makes them feel things they never felt before. I sense that I have this effect on this guy I'm dating. I'm not a borderline however I'm deeply emotional. I'm not even trying to offend men here by saying that... I'm genuinely wondering... although I'm sure that I'll get at least one person telling me how wrong I am for giving my opinion yet again!  

The Codependent No More book mentioned that codependents are really controlling. My friend told me how she heard me on the phone to someone, telling them what to do and that it sounded like I was enjoying it. And yeah, I was. I like being in charge. I can be a bit bossy at times. And I don't have much patience so in the past, if someone asked for advice, I just thought "oh they're useless" and gave them advice because I didn't have any respect for them. I still don't have any respect for them but then, I never did. That's why I gave people advice... that's why I was a rescuer... because deep down, underneath all my nice outward behavior, I didn't respect these needy people. My deeply buried feelings manifested themselves in rescuing behavior-I felt that they were a bit pathetic deep down. I'm only realizing that I felt a certain level of contempt towards these people now... back then, all I was aware of was this feeling that they were useless and that I'd have to do it... that I couldn't leave it up to them or else nothing would be done. But that is contempt/lack of respect. And I suppose it is controlling behavior. I remember always being astonished when the person I was rescuing was able to do anything by themselves... because I thought that I was the smarter one. I thought that I was the more capable one. And see, that's what I think my current boyfriend thinks! I feel that he sees himself as more capable than me... that he can keep his emotions in check but I can't. He listens to me etc however I have wondered whether he has some codependent tendencies. He's set some boundaries with me which has been helpful for both of us yet I tend to act up with him because I know that he will listen to me etc.

Is there anyone here that also has waif-tendencies? That can act up a bit to get attention/care? I feel that I'm mostly codependent however a little part of me is a waif too. The codependent side is the top layer and then underneath, the waif. No wonder why I could relate to my BPD ex!

I'm also wondering now too whether my opinionated nature is another way for me to be controlling? A way for me to say "I'm right and you're wrong". I certainly enjoy giving my opinion. I try not to a lot of the time in my actual life but there is a part of me that enjoys it. The book did mention how codependents can be controlling... .

I'm realizing that the whole "they're useless-I'll have to do it myself" feeling actually originated with my father. He was incredibly unstable so there were times when I gave him basic advice and I'd think "how does he not know this?" I didn't respect him at all... not one bit... never did... never will... There were times too when I didn't respect my mother's judgment-I'd think "how do I know better than her? how am I wiser than my own parents?"

I don't feel that anyone really understood my emotions as a child and that made me feel emotionally invalidated. It also contributed to that feeling of "they're useless-I'll have to do it myself". I felt so misunderstood. I felt like a freak. I'd talk about how I felt and I'd be misinterpreted so much. I don't remember any family member ever actually listening to me instead of jumping to conclusions, making assumptions and judging me... or else giving me advice!

Even when I went to therapy, I didn't feel like my therapist really understood me either so I quit therapy and thought "this is useless-I'll have to do it myself". Even with my al-anon meeting AND the CODA meeting... I went for an extended period of time and then thought "no this is not for me-this is useless, I'll have to do it myself". That feeling has followed me around my entire life! That feeling of never being able to trust anyone... never being able to rely on anyone... afraid of being let down. Plus not respecting anyone deep down... thinking that they were all hypocrites, saying one thing and doing another. I didn't realize the deep mistrust I had of people started so early on in my life but it must have started when I was about 4 years old... maybe even sooner.

I remember wondering why I wasn't getting on with my therapist-I never trusted her. I didn't want to work alongside her because I didn't feel like she cared. It was all transference... the feelings I had towards my father were projected onto her. I would get angry with her and just end up insulting her when I wasn't making any progress. Which obviously wasn't helpful. But then, I did the same thing towards my father. When my father wasn't giving me the love I wanted so badly, I'd insult him. Maybe he was mean to me first but either way, the claws came out and I was mean. I still feel that my father deserved it though. I still feel my therapist deserved it. I have no regrets on either score. I still feel justified yet I know that there's an indisputable link between the two events...

I remember not trusting the people in the CODA or Al-Anon meeting... wondering whether they were judging me... . hmm.

I sure don't feel like I deserve bad treatment. I feel like I deserve respect. I know for a fact that I am a respectable human being. I am respectful to others so I expect to have respect back. The problem is when I receive disrespect I accept it sometimes. But only from people that I'm having sex with. If I don't want anything from you i ain't going to put up with your crap. I have a low tolerance for bs normally. I know when I'm being disrespected and I won't allow it. Disrespect me physically you might get laid out. That happens sometimes. Anybody ever been in a fight? I know I'm not the only one but I know there are people that have never found it necessary to fight in their lives. When the T told me this I laughed. I thought it was normal to fight. It's not. Codependency has to be a feature of BPD as well. I cannot fathom it any other way. I perceived my ex to be extremely codependent. My codependency combined with hers was like the two likes repel effect. We totally clashed. That along with the lopsided love. It could be a question of who was the biggest codependent.

Wow folks. Thank You Thank You

When I grow up, I want to be where some of you are in your journey of leaving codepency... . :)


I have just recentlY come to that big question myself. Basically as I try and coparent with a waifish, impossible to deal with ex, I ask myself what in the HELL made me need to be on the road that Im on. More then how can I reason/deal with her. There is no reasoning and working with her so what can I do with ME.

Anyway, there is much here for me to digest and ponder.

And to answer the question about do we deserve bad treatment? Absolutley not! We are some of the most compassionate, empathetic folks on the face of the earth and we should be appreciated for that. As a matter of fact we should demand it. If we look at the good in us and what we aspire to be, people should take note and emulate us.  Okay that sounds a bit like the narsisistic personalities some of us have dealt with...   But in all seriousness, my conclusion is that we will only be treated as we wish to once we demand it.

How to do that however (at least for me) is the bigger question and the one I m most determined to make myself asnwer.

I am the oldest of a large family and have been helping with others for as long as I can remember and have never really took time out for me. Was never really a kid and was starkly reminded just last night. My s11 was complaining about his mother when I said Theres not much I can do about it when he said, 'yes you can'  I asked him what do you mean, he said, 'stand up for yourself'  (meaning I need to stand up to his mother, my ex BPD)


I have work to do with ME!

Thanks for your comments guys! 

perfidy-I really admire how candid and honest your post was! I also found that my BPD ex was codependent so that's an interesting point that you make. I think it's great that you're going to therapy-it's really a brave decision. I went to therapy and support groups. I've found the workshop section here great too :)


slimmiller- Please don't compare yourself to other people here! You are here, seeking support and you wrote a really expressive post-that demonstrates good communication skills :) I like the way you say "what can I do with ME"-that's exactly how I feel about it. I know that I can't change other people, only myself.

I don't think it's narcissistic to want to be respected by other people-everyone deserves respect. It would be a tad narcissistic to demand constant attention/admiration but respect is a basic human right. No one deserves to be mistreated or abused.

Musicfan, good post.  I can relate to a lot you are saying.  The I'll do it myself feeling of not being able to trust.  One of the hardest things I had to do was ask for help at the grocery store after surgery.  It about killed me to say yes when asked if I needed help out.

Thanks RoseTiger! :)

It's good that you did ask for help at the grocery store after surgery.  |iiii

I think there's an upside to that "I'll do it myself" feeling-resilience, self-sufficiency, independence etc. I think the "I'll do it myself" thing only becomes bad when it's taken to an extreme... when I never ask for help. It really is about trying to strike a balance as I mentioned before. 

I have seen a few Therapists over the years, and have had ones that I stopped seeing after a few session, because like yours I felt they didn't care, or we didn't gel, or weren't on the same page. However it wasn't until I read a book about Therapy (recommended by a T) that I really started to get what therapy could be about. (Book was: Love's Executioner and other tales of Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom), and to realise how far it could go if I let it (still not sure I have let it, but I think about it often!)

You said "I remember wondering why I wasn't getting on with my therapist-I never trusted her. I didn't want to work alongside her because I didn't feel like she cared. It was all transference... the feelings I had towards my father were projected onto her. I would get angry with her and just end up insulting her when I wasn't making any progress. Which obviously wasn't helpful. But then, I did the same thing towards my father. When my father wasn't giving me the love I wanted so badly, I'd insult him. Maybe he was mean to me first but either way, the claws came out and I was mean. I still feel that my father deserved it though. I still feel my therapist deserved it. I have no regrets on either score. I still feel justified yet I know that there's an indisputable link between the two events... "

He speaks about this in the book, about how transference can be really helpful, to work out those feelings we have for our parents in a safe space with the Therapist. There were times in the past when I felt like I couldn't trust the T with my feelings, and there was no way I could express this to her (for fear of hurting her feelings    !) I realise now that its her job, she would have handled it and talking about those feelings of trust with her could have been really theraputic.

Trust is a big one I know. So great you are looking at all this stuff. Have your experiences with that T put you off finding another to work through some of the stuff with?

Love Blazing Star

That's a really good question Blazing Star. I don't want to go to therapy again however I've realized that I need an outlet to express my emotions. I've started journalling and that's filling the void right now.

Thanks for the book recommendation by the way-I'll be sure to check it out :)

I think many of us don't consciously think or feel we deserve bad treatment. I don't. But I apparently ooze that unconscious belief from every pore, which is easily sniffed out by those who need someone to treat badly.

One of the really important realizations for me about codependency wasn't just being tired of being a doormat. It was the realization that those of us with spongy boundaries/codependency are also controlling. When we don't have boundaries, we don't know how to respect others boundaries either. And that it's sure a lot easier to focus on how hurt WE get by having poor boundaries, than it is to notice how we hurt others with this same exact problem. How we push our "help" on others, push ourselves on them, invade their space with our lack of understanding of boundaries. We aren't just perfectly innocent, healthy little victims. We can pretend all we want that all that sacrifice and "help" is strings free, but it's not, and everybody involved knows it, even though it is verboten to speak aloud.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

A lot of my own fixing and helping stem from a horrific childhood that no one intervened in. Doing for others what I wished someone would have done for me. Whether they want me to or not. Sacrificing yourself for someone else ALWAYS leads to resentment. Then we want the person we resent to listen endlessly to our litany of complaints about how crappy they are treating us, and are outraged at the "lack of respect" they exhibit by NOT doing this. Because what we really want is for them to love us in the spots where we don't know how to love ourselves. And by definition (SELF love), they cannot. But they should, by gawd! After all we've done for them!   Nothing boundary busting about that, right?  lol

Recovery started in earnest when I stopped focusing on what was being done to me and started focusing on my role in the dance, and what I wanted to do to change that. And when I stopped confusing JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) with boundary enforcement. And when I began to feel more secure about myself instead of sacrificing myself to people I wanted to reflect back to me that I have worth/value.

|iiii Bringing your own awareness to what is going in inside is key. You seem to be doing some great reflecting, so keep it up. Journalling is a wonderful tool. I use it a lot,  and I know for me I can sometimes find it hard take it further, and at the moment visit a T monthly or so when I am stuck and need a perspective other than my own.

Love Blazing Star

Thanks guys for your insightful comments! :)

doubleAries-as always, you make a lot of sense here! You have a lot of self-awareness and that's to be commended.

Blazing Star- thank you! I feel like I'm struggling a lot lately so I've been finding solace in journalling. Yes, I know exactly what you mean by getting stuck at times... that's only natural. I think it's really essential to seek support, whether that's in the form of therapy, support groups, friends and family etc. I feel that I need more support in my life right now. I'm giving myself a few days to think it over and decide how to seek the extra support that I require.

I read a small preview of the book that you mentioned from google books and it looks good!

DoubleAries I have read your post and I see all your points and I feel ashamed to be honest I always thought I was a good person to people... .

This part really sticks out for me doubleAries. I hate listening to other peoples' problems though because there's nothing in it for me whereas when I give advice, I get to feel important. Listening is really a selfless act and I just don't know whether I have the patience or the inclination to listen to other peoples' problems. I tend to feel irritated internally and 99% of the time, my attempts to solve their problem is just because I want to get rid of them... that they're just a nuisance... . deep down, I don't really want to be bothered... I've enough problems of my own etc so I've had to learn to set firmer boundaries with other people.

If I gave advice/acted in a codependent manner, I felt that the other person owed me a favor and that gave me a sense of control however I found that I was usually the one giving and not really receiving very much in return.

I have to be honest and say that your post left me feeling unsettled. It made me feel defensive and I had no idea why so I decided to just give it time and reflect on why that was. I think it troubled me because I realized that I give advice a lot here on the forum when some people would probably prefer validation, empathy, understanding etc. I do my best to be supportive here however some of it is motivated by self-interest. I'm here because I want help and whilst I'm here, I read other posts and respond to the ones that I'm particularly drawn to or the ones where I feel I can offer some words of wisdom. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though because it's a mutually beneficial online community here where everyone helps each other out. The website is well-moderated and there are guidelines for posting so there's a lot of boundaries in place.

In life, we're all interdependent-we're autonomous individuals yet we still may rely on others for emotional support for certain issues. I don't think that's a problem provided that there are clear boundaries and that there's a sense of reciprocity within the relationship. I say "certain issues" because everyone has their limits-it can't be about every single little thing in life. I don't have sympathy for people who are getting themselves into crisis/drama all the time as ultimately, they're just irresponsible people. I don't care if that sounds harsh-that's been my experience of it. However, if there's someone who is genuine-i.e. they're usually responsible but they're just going through a bad patch in life, then sure, I will listen and if necessary, direct them to their G.P. etc for professional support.

Your post made me realize that I need to outline my boundaries surrounding the amount of support that I'm prepared to offer people. I feel that I'm willing to offer people I trust a greater amount of support than people I don't trust/not close to/dislike.

I actually ended up googling "active listening" and found "a listening wheel" for future reference. It's similar to the concept of validation however I responded better to the listening wheel model for whatever reason. I struggle to deal with difficult conversations with people-I just want to change the subject or give them advice so at least now I have another option.

I don't feel guilt anymore for not automatically offering support to someone. I feel that I have to think it through carefully beforehand and weigh it up-do a pros and cons list. It also depends on the type of person. If someone is the type that is easy to deal with, then I'm more inclined to offer support whereas if they're more awkward, I tend to want to just push them away. I don't really help people I dislike as a rule-it just wouldn't feel appropriate... it'd be weird if I suddenly pretended that I cared about them the minute they were having issues in their life.

I don't really feel that I was listened to non-judgmentally. I was listened to as a child however I was usually given some kind of tough love  style advice. I think that's probably why I find it hard to be non-judgmental... . I'm just not used to it.


I think another reason why I felt defensive as I read your post is because you said "we aren't just perfectly innocent, healthy little victims". When I started this thread, I was judging myself very harshly and then I thought "I need to give myself a break". Sure, we're not completely innocent however we're not criminals either. In the grand scheme of things, codependency is probably down to a misguided notion that we can save someone as well as low self-esteem/low self-worth. I think that it's manipulation on one level however I don't think there is any malicious kind of intent inbuilt into it. I also don't think it's conscious manipulation... it's not deliberate... the codependent may not even realize what he/she is doing and then even when he/she does, it may be hard to envisage dealing with situations in a different way. Whereas if you look at an issue like domestic abuse-it's a very deliberate campaign aimed at gaining control over the victim. I think that a lot of codependents just don't have the skills... don't know any better. It's not down to any kind of badness on the part of the codependent. Codependents typically have weak/spongy boundaries and don't know where they end and another person begins.

Codependents tend to come from dysfunctional households whereby there were very rigid family rules e.g. don't talk, don't feel, don't think. The family as a collective machine was prioritized over the well-being of each family member as an individual. Generally, there was a ruler in the family that had most of the control and the other family members orbited around that person, doing their biding... going along with it because they didn't want to rock the boat etc... . for a number of reasons. Codependents may have been from families where a parent(s) put unrealistic expectations on them from an early age. It can range from expecting the child to be perfect or in more serious cases, expecting the child to look after younger siblings or do a vast majority of the housework/cleaning from a very young age etc. I feel that the low self-worth inbuilt in codependents develops because there was too much expected of the child. Maybe the child was criticized a lot or otherwise emotionally abused. That kind of emotional invalidation can have a profound effect on individuals as adults. Of course, other types of abuse will also have an effect on the child's psyche as he/she enters adulthood and beyond.

I think what I'm trying to say is that codependents didn't choose to become that way however they have a responsibility to find better ways of coping as adults. DBT says something similar about borderlines-that they may not have caused their problems but that it's still up to them to solve them.

I was judging myself harshly for being codependent-using words like "doormat" however I've realized just now that it's futile. I need to radically accept myself-that it was not my fault that I learned to be codependent in relationships in the first place and also work on better ways of coping with relationship issues etc.

Thank you DoubleAries for giving your in many ways insightful post in this thread!

I too however, much like musicfan42, felt a bit defensive while reading it, and too had to sit down and think for a bit about what it was that made me feel that way... . :)

Like I have said before in this thread I think there are a multitude of reasons why we get ourselves overly attached to our BPD loved ones. And co-dependency is certainly one of them... . But in my case that explanation has not completely felt as if it fit the bill for me... . My struggle has more or less always been about wanting to break free from dependency (in my case to a very selfish and perhaps even disordered mother who didn't, and still doesn't really understand where she ends and I begin). And my biggest problem is not being able to fend for myself when push comes to shove, but keep abandoning myself because the consequences of me breaking free always are too big... .

I think there lies in me at least a conflict of loving and wanting to love a person who sometimes reciprocates and sometimes doesn't... . But in my case she is the only mother I have... . And I believe now that most of the learned behaviors I tend to bring into my relationships stem from my struggle of trying to love her enough for her to be the person she is when she feels I do for her what she wants me to... . I have never felt like I need to "help" or "save" my mother... . I have mostly been trying to save myself... . Sometimes to break free, (which mostly has failed), and sometimes to earn her love, (which often works)... . So my coping strategies very much revolves around that also in my adult relationships with men... .

Sure, boundaries are not a very big part of my life yet, however they are beginning to take form... . But I too as musicfan42 states it very well, also need to give myself a break once in a while... . I put a lot of blame on myself always, for not standing up for myself, for not being there enough, for not loving myself enough and so on... . And I need to stop doing that... . Like my T once said to me... . The coping strategies I learned as a kid, actually did work for me in that situation... . It is just that in an adult relationship some things are different, and therefore they don't pay off as well as they have in my r/s to my parents... .

I think the basic problem many of us here have is we have never been given the tools or the validation needed to be able to create any kind of healthy self love. And it is my firm belief that mankind as a whole cannot really live without love... . we need to feel loved in at least some way and by someone. And we all need to at times at least be interacting with others for that very purpose... .

I am beginning to feel that the concept of boundaries won't work unless you actually get to the point first that you actually are worthy of someone else's love. Our self love is not sufficient to build a strong sense of self... . Since we all always in one way or another as human beings relate to our peers... . So the road to recovery I think goes through learning how to appreciate love from other people to an extent that we also begin to accept and learn to love ourselves for who we are... . And from there we can create and grow to hold up boundaries for ourselves... .

The problem is when that foundation is non existent, then just putting up a boundary pretty much means cutting yourself off from love all together... .

I mean it all sounds very nice to say you don't need anybody else as long as you love yourself... . But I don't believe that is really true... . At least not for me... . It feels to me more like a self help book slogan... .

I believe we need love also coming from others, (however not necessarily just from a partner), to be able to form self love, (if it has been traumatized in childhood).

However a lot of this is about finding balance... . Not needing too much validation to be able to form self love for instance... . And that is where things get problematic in connection with our BPD loved ones, where idealization is such a big part of most initial encounters with pw BPD... .

I have for instance never felt it to be my job or my need to "help" my BPD ex with his BPD or with loving me... . I have never blamed him for his inability to give me what I need. Since I don't really know what it is I need... . (I am learning that part too in therapy now, exploring and forming my own identity for the first time in much forty plus years on this planet... . ).

Thinking aloud I also wonder if there really is a need for relationships between people if we work towards erasing both wanting and to some degree needing each other. In a way I believe relationships are there to help us learn not to become overly selfish and egocentric. But instead find balance in both receiving love from a loving partner as well as be loving and accepting towards ourselves... . After all it is love thy neigh our as you love yourself... . Not just love yourself and don't need anybody else... .  just to exaggerate a bit... .

I think musicfan42 really has a point that resonates to me when she wrote this:


Best Wishes

Scout99

It certainly was not my intention to trigger up everyone's defensiveness. So maybe I need to go a bit more in depth about what I meant. However, I am chuckling a little bit right now... . at the end of my reply I mentioned confusing JADE with boundaries. Now everyone is  Justifying and Defensive and I am Justifying and Explaining--3/4 of the JADE model.  lol

There is nothing at all wrong with helping others. But as codependents it behooves us to examine our motives when helping others--even to the point of did the other person actually ask for our help?

It also behooves us to examine our own defense mechanisms. I note that codependents (I include myself first and foremost) are quick to discern the difference between malicious and accidental harm--and while there is a difference, we tend to put too much emphasis on that difference, and often as a Justification to dismiss the harm we may have caused, since it was "accidental" rather than malicious. That way, we can continue on the way we have been, without making any changes. We believe our Justifications more readily than others do. And we are more apt to attribute our harm causing behavior to accident and others harm causing behavior to maliciousness (maybe because we don't have the benefit of their Justifications?)

Musicfan has noted the parent with poor boundaries has a big impact on the child. True enough. Yet our own poor boundaries don't have a big impact on others? Because we are able to Justify and Explain them to ourselves?

Just because we aren't malicious (and don't the malicious people have Justifications and Explanations to help them believe they are NOT malicious?) doesn't mean we aren't having an impact.

If I gave advice/acted in a codependent manner, I felt that the other person owed me a favor and that gave me a sense of control however I found that I was usually the one giving and not really receiving very much in return. (quote from musicfan)

This is pretty much the heart and soul of codependency, is it not? What if, sometimes, it isn't actually that we aren't getting much in return, but simply that we don't value what we are getting in return? And just maybe because we know more about what we DON'T value than what we DO value? Aren't VALUES what boundaries are there to protect?

There is a huge focus on BOUNDARIES, but boundaries are simply the fences of protection around the VALUES the boundaries are meant to protect. Maybe--just maybe--we aren't getting much in return because we have not communicated what we want (what we value) in return. And maybe--just maybe--that is because not only do we not really know what we value--especially on an emotional level--but because we don't want to be so open about this "barter" system we are engaged in. We believe that "tit for tat" or "value for value" is wrong and bad, and that "selflessness" is good and right. If there is something in it for me, then it must be bad, correct? because I, the codependent, don't deserve.

So "what's in it for me" becomes covert ("accidental" instead of overt ("malicious". And I maintain that a big part of why we "don't know" what we want in return is because what we want is not possible for someone else to give. We want self-respect, self-worth, self-value, and self-love. So of course we don't communicate (or "know" what we want in return, because saying this out loud, asking someone to give you what they cannot--what we must do for ourselves--is patently ridiculous.

Instead of examining this, we examine how we give and give and give and get so little in return, and how we are going to protect ourselves from these predators who take advantage of us. We are engaged so often in an impossible blackmail scheme--one we cannot win as long as the "perpetrators" are outside of ourselves.

Look, I'm not saying we codependents are BAD people--we've already heard plenty of that in our lives, haven't we? Please don't jump to this conclusion to avoid what I'm saying. What I AM saying is I cannot afford--emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, physically, or financially--to be codependent any longer. And that means getting to the root of the issue, not just soothing the symptoms.

Here is a quote from a book I posted on another thread on this site, that I want to repost here. It is harsh but  informative. This is how (professional) others see us codependent types when they aren't being so gentle. I'm more a fixer than an enabler, but both fixers and enablers fall under the headline "codependent" and there are blatant overlaps.

"Enablers are power hungry and addicted to control. They make excuses for the damaging or self destructive behavior of those close to them because it increases their importance as the seemingly "stable" center around which chaos and depravity swirl. Without sick people depending on them to stay afloat, enablers wouldn't be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. They would have to focus on it and therefore feel it. And they will do almost anything to avoid that”

This is the description of a codependent mother of a BPD by a psychiatrist. In another part of the book, he also describes the BPD valuing/devaluing of others, and correlates the codependents similar pattern. The gung-ho "here I am to save the day!" beginning that turns to the "I give and give and give and get little to nothing in return" ending. To the other person, does it really matter if it was "accidental" or "malicious"? Probably not. That only matters to us when we are JADEing.

It is our responsibility to change ourselves (not those around us). If we want healthy, content lives, then we have to make that happen. Sitting around castigating ourselves (or others) for being BAD people is an avoidance of the problem, not a solution. In a business, you take inventory of your supplies. You keep what is useful and throw out what is not. You don't attribute moral values or devalues to the supplies.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.

Bit more clarification---

I, probably like many of you, HAVE articulated at times the value I want in return (and yes, it is usually uncomfortable, and my dander is up because I am vulnerable and expect therefore to be treated with kid gloves). And there have been times--many of them--where that request was turned down. Sometimes "maliciously". And that is pretty much proof to me that what I "gave" really did have strings, even though I pretended to myself and others that I was simply being selfless. Not to mention that what I really wanted was NOT articulated (self-worth, self-value, etc) but implied.

My point is in many ways it is true--I was selfless alright. And that's the problem. A self is important. I wanted someone else to give me a self. Even though only I can do that, and I can't do that as long as I'm pretending that "selflessness" is the actual value/goal.

If I'm really so "selfless", then why am I resentful about doing all the giving, and getting little to nothing in return? People who have no self (ie: are "selfless" shouldn't mind being taken advantage of at all. People who are smothering their self, though, trying to kill it all while covertly demanding others fulfill it, feel resentment. When we examine the resentment--instead of the person we are blaming the resentment on--it looks a little different. Maybe a LOT different... .

It's even worth asking ourselves... . "I'm not getting what I value in return for what I have given. But I also don't know for sure that what I have given was of value to the person I gave it to, do I?"

Dang it! I keep forgetting to say the part that seems important through this:

I think it is OK to have strings attached to what we are giving! There is nothing wrong with expecting something in return most of the time! And that one of the big problems here for us codependents is we aren't up front about that, because we think there's something wrong with it. So what is wrong with it? What is wrong with SHARING instead of just selflessly giving (and then being resentful)? We know there's nothing wrong with it, or we wouldn't resent doing all the giving!

But we have to be able to communicate what we want in return--even if only to ourselves. And what we want has to be reasonable, not impossible. Which means being honest with ourselves. We have to come to understand that when we want someone else to replace the angst feeling inside us with a content warm fuzzy feeling, that maybe the angst is coming from our own internal turmoil over the division of self and selfless, and the other person can't do that. And that just because they can't doesn't mean we should label them as predators, taking advantage of us.

Not that we don't magnetize predators--we do. But we have to remove the "kick me" sign from our backs instead of covertly demanding that others ignore it, and then believing that going from covert to overt defense mechanisms is a solution instead of a sideways avoidance.

There. Maybe that's what I was trying to say... .

I think it's healthy that there's a good discussion on this issue. It would be boring if we all had the exact same opinion.

One thing I've noticed is how harsh a lot of people here are on themselves, including myself! I feel that if one is constantly indulging in self-criticism, then it's a lot easier for someone else to put you down because you're already doing it to yourself. So I think that self-compassion can actually be a tool... a barrier/boundary if you like against predators.

I'm increasingly accepting of my human imperfections-that I have strengths and weakness... both. And that it's okay. That I am lovable just as I am-that I don't have to be perfect to be lovable... that my very imperfections can make me even more lovable at times. Perfection is boring-it's just too shiny, too new... it's much more interesting to meet a strong yet imperfect person and engage with them. I used to think that my emotions were just weakness however I've realized that it gives me excellent interpersonal skills... that my emotions enable me to connect with others and empathize with them.

Of course it's incumbent upon people to work on their own issues however I'm seeing that a lot of people here have been through some tough situations... turbulent upbringings, relationships etc. I think that's why it's important to encourage everyone to work on their own issues in a gentle way. In some of my posts, I've had a real no-nonsense attitude that was probably a bit harsh whereas now I'm thinking "look, we're all just human... . no one has everything figured out... . we're all just learning".

The reason why I say that codependents aren't criminals either is because I was reading a book on depression and it had an exercise in it on handling feelings of guilt and shame. It basically said that there is a continuum, that it's not all-or-nothing. It said "are you as bad as Hitler?" And that made me think "eh no, of course I'm not". It just gave me a sense of perspective-that sure, I've made mistakes in my life but that I tried to do my best. I'm not letting myself off the hook or making excuses however I also don't think there's any point in giving myself a hard time over things that happened in the past that I can't change now anyways. I think that I'm finding a balance... that I'm firm but also loving to myself at the same time. I didn't realize that it was possible to have high standards and also give yourself self-compassion, self-care etc.

I can't thank you all enough for your insight you really have helped me. I guess its a positive that I am in touch with my feelings now they will be dealt with and then hopefully soon I will be at the 100% acceptance phase. I know I'm a good person and I can tell by the compassion freely given on this board you are all good people too. We just need to work on some things to make ourselves even better. I guess I accept that now because i know I was very good to my ex and she completely took me for granted. Did I allow that to happen? Sure. But I can't excuse her for being a crappy human being when I loved you... .

I saw a saying the other day.

Don't think somebody is a fool for trusting you. You were just given a lot more credit than you deserve.

Well it went something like that anyway

Hi to all

Interesting post, and very fitting.

Yes, I felt like I deserved his bad treatment, maybe a little before I met him, and certainly after I had been deprived of sleep and under constant attack (by him) many days per week for two years, bumbling around in a fog of confusion and pain constantly.

Even more with the extreme manipulation tactics he used. This is a man who borders on genius, (or so he and his Mother told me), apparently at the age of 11, he was so intellectually advanced, that they were considering moving him to university to finish his schooling... I never really heard the rest of that story, but I don't doubt his intelligence. Unfortunately he lacks emotional intelligence, (one of the necessities in true ability).

Why I stayed if things were that bad? Well, there were obviously the occasional pay off's where he was kind and loving, giving, but I was like that rat in the cage we all hear about here, pressing and pressing, over and over, to get food pay off, and I never knew when it would arrive, just that it would, surely if I kept trying... .

And yes, I loved him so, and kept on hoping. My conditioning was also that you didn't give up easily on a relationship, you kept at it, and kept trying.

ExuBP was also doing a rat experiment of his own, except that he was the Scientist and for all intents and purposes, in control of the whole experiment, (although allegedly I had more control than I ever thought possible!)

So as it goes, exBP had me in the cage as his rat, now and again, he would reward me with wonderful tasty food treats, (love, cuddles and being pleasant company). Me the rat kept pressing the button to be rewarded, anticipating the sweetness of such things when they came. I was given many games and things to occupy me in my little cage, and really enjoyed all of them for a time.

The Scientist, (exBP) would occasionally electrocute me, instead of rewarding me, and then put his finger in my cage to see what I did. If I as a rat, bit him on the finger, he would punish me by starving me for several days, and then go back to rewarding me again, (giving me pats, and nice food treats that I didn't even have to press the button for, he just put them in my cage with me!

Then the next morning, no food would arrive, so eagerly I would again try pressing the button again for more treats.

And so the cycle went.

Occasionally, BP the Scientist went too far with his little electrical experiments with me the rat, and he nearly killed me many times, after which he would usually be immediately sorry, and try to comfort me with soft tender words and more treats to bring me back round again.

I rat, would cower in the cage, afraid, and then after a few days of safety, I would recover, (pats and food given without need for buttons being pressed) then suddenly, that food supply would stop so I would go back to pressing the button for treats/food/comfort.

It occasionally got to the point where my little rat brain was so confused, when the Scientist put food in my cage, I wouldn't go near it for a while, and would stop eating drinking, such was the fear of pain from random electrocutions.

Eventually, I lost all my motivation to play on the toys in my cage, I even lost all motivation to clean myself and take care of any clean up jobs in my cage too. That was when the Scientist seemed to lose interest in me, and the electrocutions seemed to be more frequent again, it got to the final stage, when I wouldn't come out of my hiding box, to see the Scientists face. I just stayed in there all day and tried to avoid him.

Although I was well aware that the Scientist was nearby, mucking around with his many other projects and ignoring me mostly anyway.

One day, after several months of my frequent hiding, the Scientist took the cage I was in, carried it outside, and let me out, there was a big Cat nearby, but the Scientist didn't seem to care, he just flicked me out, and at first I sat still for a very long time, still hiding, and afraid to move.

The Scientist took his hand out of his pocket as he walked off, and he had another rat in it, which he put into my cage as he was walking off.

I found a very good place to hide, (away from the menacing cat nearby) but still stayed where I was, afraid to move too far for quite some time.

Slowly, I edged my way back out into the world, but first took a look at the laboratory I had been trapped in for so long, and to see how my other rat peers were doing in there.

I was horrified to see the Scientist still electrocuting those poor creatures, and wondered how long it would be before someone caught him... I hoped it would be soon.

And off I ran into the sunshine.

this is a really brave thread and thanks to everyone above for being so open.

i don't feel that i deserve bad treatment, but it's all i expect. certainly this comes from experiences and attitudes i picked up when young. on the personal level, my father was a genuinely good guy but distant (he used to come home from work and at the dinner table ask my mother "what did he do in school today" with me sitting right there). so he didn't intervene at all with my mother, who is paranoiac, and thinks the worst of everything reflexively. i knew there was a problem even when i was very young, but i keep discovering how deeply her patterns of thought have affected mine.

but more influential in this regard than either of these individual personalities was the emotionally callous and pitiless ethic of my parents' upbringing. any trace of complaint, any neutral observation that could be taken as a complaint, any desire that things be different from the way they were, was crushed. whatever happens to you, you take. i still have no idea what they were trying to keep at bay; perhaps by opening the door to feelings you would become paralyzed with sadness, or you might actually come to think that you were special in some way, and the tall tree gets lopped. we're all going to be wretched together.

so in the marriage i was repeatedly treated abusively (usually in the form of being treated like a servant) and just absorbed it and carried on. i certainly complained (because i didn't deserve such treatment), and that was my fatal error, because w felt that a couple should never have any issues, that we should just accept everything about each other exactly as it is - a BPD defense mechanism, i now understand. by the time she bolted things emotionally had slowed down.

there were other reasons i stayed. i loved above all the security of marriage, the fact that we would have each other forever. i loved our activities as a couple. she had great qualities. she was successful and i was proud of her. i loved that we had a social network, in-laws and nephews and nieces. i had a strong commitment to our vows. i was actually looking forward to her arrival home from work the day she announced her infidelity and left.