BPDFamily.com

Good morning All -

Just a thought this morning... . do you feel that your x consciously knew how they were acting towards us?

The reason I ask this, is that I just find it so hard to believe that she couldn't see how her behavior... . etc, impacted the r/s? Or how her actions HURT many people?

She would even say at times how "guys like the push/pull... . "

This given her high functioning profession obviously knew better, so for me it just boils down to severe maliciousness, evil, with no regards to someone else's feelings... .

Were her words/actions from the BPD or is she just that shi**y of a person?

Thoughts encouraged

Thanks!

MCC

Both, the actions were from the BPD and in all honesty you can't say that they were that great of a person either.  You can't have one without the other unfortunately, they are both one and the same in this world.  Its like trying to separate oxygen from air, or a baby from pooping a diaper, you can't.   

I think that they know exactly what they are doing, they just don't care because their Emotions and how They Feel are the over riding factors in their life besides anything else, albeit family, spouse, kids, finances, etc.   At the very end mine actually laughed a little while I was in total shock and disbelief, utterly speechless and in tears. 

But over time it gets better and you realize you can't save anyone from themselves or from mental illness, put yourself back in the hierarchy of importance. 

Mine felt that her rages and bad behavior were caused by her children and particularly me.  Her response would be, "you're upsetting me".

If they know how much they hurt those around them they would apologize - something they can't do because they cannot feel your pain only theirs.

When mine fell over and her daughter ran to help. She said to the child "I don't love you". You can imagine that poor child's face. I insisted she apologize the next day and she gave her daughter a half-assed apology. The kid was delighted but she then looked at me as if to say, "did you think I was going to make a genuine apology?"

Excellent reply Scot!  "They" seem to know, but not really care, as the choice they face is doing what they do or facing total annihilation of their 'soul'.  It's logical within their point of view (which is very disturbed when viewed by "Nons".  :)on't imagine that they don't feel a lot of guilt, though.  Guilt is a central factor in their existence.  It just isn't seen in the same light as you or I might see it.  In some ways guilt is an essential thing to them; a 'pain' that is absolutely required in a r/s.  I know it seems weird from the "Non" point of view.

LT

That's really a tough one isn't it and I understand the hurt that these behaviors inflict and the questions that it brings with.

I think it's important to remember, this is a mental illness. It's not just a personality flaw or quirk. It is a mental illness. My dd19, has been in therapy since she was 11 yrs old. We caught it very early, it was puberty onset. She is a very sweet person who is high functioning and is very aware of the mental processes and is able to work though those very productively. It seems, sometimes, when she was at her worst that it was malicious and insidious. That she wanted others to hurt just for the joy of hurting others. But I saw her before the onset and now after her years and years of therapy. I think if it was just evil, it would be conduct disorder, antisocial disorder, sociopath etc.

When DD19 was in her teens, I would get so frustrated at her attacks on her little brother. She honestly didn't know, she admitted to loving him and wanting to have the relationship that D21 one had with him. She just didn't know how, it always ended badly. It's was very frustrating and disheartening to her also.

My pwPD knows EXACTLY how she treats me and says so... .

Yes! The answer to that question is a very solid yes! When it's over they will hurt you on purpose and if you show that hurt to them they will try to hurt even more. They are master manipulators. If it is over with your pwBPD walk away. If you don't be the better person here, You have no one else to blame but yourself. Walk away burn the bridge and don't look back. It can be so painful that you would wish you were dead. They want you to feel all of the pain that they feel. More if possible. It can get so ugly that people die. My ex was the most heartless and cruel person that I have ever been with. She pitted me against her new boyfriend. Played both of us with no intention of ever being with me again. He is the sucker now. She tried to set me up. Invited me to take her out and then told everyone that I was harassing her. I saw the ugliness firsthand. If I had continued I could have ended up dead or in jail. WARNING! avoid them at all cost! They are poison to you!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I sure do miss her!

I do believe they are aware but cannot admit it. If they admit they know what they are doing and they hurt you then they have to deal with those feelings of guilt and shame too. So it is easier to cast aside and blame others for their behavior. It is a coping mechanism. On some level they are aware, I do believe that but avoid responsibility for self preservation. My bPD once asked me to do.something and when I said no she said , "no one has ever said no to me."  She made she  I was.punished for no doing what she wanted. She was also a.master at setting me up to look like the bad guy. We would make plans to.go to dinner. I would go to pick her up and she would be asleep. She would finally wake up hours later and complain how I didn't take  Her to dinner. Figure that one out!

When I split with my ex, the next day I was round a mutual friends and he texted her to see how I was doing. He told her that he was pretty devastated that we had split and that it would be easier for him as he had "had to say goodbye to a lot of people in my past."

He also texted me to contact him if i Was spiralling into the negatives. I did manage to get some kind of answers about how he couldn't risk his heart again, too much hurt in the past, future uncertain yada yada.

He then went on to contradict this obviously. So I think he knew he hurt me, was aware, but had a switch he could flick in his brain "feelings off move on."

Posted by: Perfidy

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Yes! The answer to that question is a very solid yes! When it's over they will hurt you on purpose and if you show that hurt to them they will try to hurt even more. They are master manipulators. If it is over with your pwBPD walk away. If you don't be the better person here, You have no one else to blame but yourself. Walk away burn the bridge and don't look back. It can be so painful that you would wish you were dead. They want you to feel all of the pain that they feel. More if possible. It can get so ugly that people die. My ex was the most heartless and cruel person that I have ever been with. She pitted me against her new boyfriend. Played both of us with no intention of ever being with me again. He is the sucker now. She tried to set me up. Invited me to take her out and then told everyone that I was harassing her. I saw the ugliness firsthand. If I had continued I could have ended up dead or in jail. WARNING! avoid them at all cost! They are poison to you!


Hold on, were we seeing the same person?  sheesh it seems that way, but honestly I believe that it is somewhat of a cross between what Perfidy said and what Holly stated, that it was almost like they 'flicked a switch' and out I went.  Nothing I said would have made a difference to her.   To top it off in the end I was just reacting needlessly to all the drama when she was pitting me against the next guy she had already lined up and unbeknown to me was already seeing/living with.  Silly me for sticking around to hear the 'I Love You's' and actually believing them. 

In the end I geuss what I don't understand the most is how someone that at one time you were soo close and connected to could turn soo callous, vengeful, and hurtful.  I suppose that the only Real answer is that you were Never really that close or connected to them in the first place-it was all BS.  If they want to see someone else or not me anymore that is fine, I'll hit the door, but there is no need to invite me over to see the new person they have just for the heck of it. 

If they realize that they are mentally ill, they probably do have an idea that they hurt you, but they cant help it.  Their needs far outweigh your, and you will always be left the "bad guy"  It is how they roll.  The problem is in their world they are the Judge and Jury.  They can not process pain as they have a faulty defense mechanism, and instead of taking responsibility for their actions, they put their feelings for you in a box and put it up in their emotional closet.

In doing this they do not have to feel bad for long, they just keep showing it all in the closet.  They are not heartless, but they can not take blame.  They would lose their right to exist in their black and white world.

I hope this helps.

 Laelle

They probably know they hurt us, but it doesn't matter to them.

In their ill heads they are justified doing what they do. The always will find a reason why their behaviour is legitimate. And that reason is our fault always.

Mine took the blame all the time, but in that very black and white way.  Back when we were still together there were plenty of times when she would tearfully ask me why I loved her and why I would ever want to be with her.  We'd fight sometimes and after things cooled off she'd huffily tell me that we didn't need to work things out, because we both knew that she was the problem.  That everything that was wrong in our relationship was because of her.  I got yelled at more than once for never being able to understand what it was like to do anything wrong ever because I was a perfect girlfriend.  It was a strange sort of thing she did where she painted me white, but resented the hell out of because suddenly she was viewing me as being better than her.

There were lots of other times where she swore everything was my fault and I threw in the towel the second things got even a little tough.  That my enforcing boundaries I had clearly stated was me running away at the first sign of trouble.  When she's in Blame Me Mode I hear all about how I never really loved her and I wasn't supportive and she did everything for me and I did nothing.   Standard splitting black sort of stuff.  Just wanted to mention that a lot of our BPDexes split themselves black too, and cycle back and forth between which person in the relationship is entirely to blame for its ending.  

I think my BPDex has some awareness of what she has done, but like any habit it is difficult to nearly impossible to alter her ingrained responses to her disordered thoughts and feelings. Very early on in the relationship, I believe she tried very hard to scare me away, but my irrational desire to be a white knight savior to her kept me from leaving. I see that she can't accept any blame and the associated shame with her part in our unhealthy relationship. Some people see that as evil and sociopathic, but I'm not really sure labeling it like that makes any difference as the end result would not be any different regardless.

All BPDex's behaviors were things that she probably learned early on in her life in order to survive trauma and abuse, so to her that is maybe beyond being good or evil? She doesn't seem to have learned to differentiate how to treat kind loving people differently from abusive people.

If you were to blame, then she wasn't to blame. If she could convince you it was all your fault, then she did nothing wrong and she was still "good."

Your standard run of the mill blame shifting.

Otherwise she would have had to have admitted fault which = death.

Holy C#$p, my pd did the same... . Asked me to help her move and then said that I was stalking her to help her deal with the shame of being fired from her job I believe... .

Word MCC. One of the best things that I have taken from this forum is the words not matching the behavior. Always left to "figure it out". I agree. It lets them off the hook. No accountability. Gross immaturity. No emotional liability. Inability to form intimate bonds. No meaningful relationship. The lies. The perfidy.

I have come to the conclusion that I understand it.  I "get it," so to speak... . (only about 250 posts later... . point is, I am still doing the work, reading, participating, and this is the best "therapy" that I could be getting... . it works for ME!)

It still doesn't sit too well with me, but I am not sure if it ever will?  But having said that, I do feel confident that I have learned enough to understand things.  How MY actions triggered hers, etc... .

I was the one who chose to allow MYSELF to live in fear of this person.  If I had the ability to establish a healthy boundary would it have helped or would she have left sooner?  Who knows... . at this point, who cares? Would she have been able to treat me with an ounce of respect?

Point is, you cant put the toothpaste back in the tube.  All I can do now is reflect, learn, accept, and grow from this experience... .

MCC

I really like this picture  :):


MCC, what would you say now what were/are the most important things you have learned out of your relationship?

I have learned / taken away so much.  I cannot tell you how valuable this whole hellish experience has been for me... .

First of all... . I MATTER! I will never compromise WHO I AM again for the sake of pleasing another person.

A pretty face is just that.  It doesn't mean that they are the same on the inside, and that is what counts!

We teach others how they can treat us.  Boundaries are something that I never heard of before this.  People know where they stand with me and what I will/wont tolerate in MY life.

I don't need validation from another person, as I create MY own validation by continuing to be who I am and enjoy what I like.

I wont tolerate disrespect from anyone.  This goes hand in hand with the establishment of firm boundaries, but it is HUGE for me!

Always trust your gut, or that little voice in the back of your head... . it's there for a reason!

I have developed a new confidence.  I am not afraid to stand up for myself anymore.  I will do it tactfully and be mindful of how I come across to another person.  Again, people know where they stand with me... .

I will never treat another person as I have been treated.  It's malicious... . I could care less if it's "BPD, ABC, or 123," fact is that it's wrong and I wont do that!

I am not responsible for HER.  This was there before me and still continues to be there.  I didn't "break" her.  I am NOT the "monster" here, as she still continues the same patterns... .

I will no longer hold onto the guilt, shame, anger, hurt of this experience.  It takes too much energy out of me and holds me down from living MY life!

I understand this, the actions, the behavior.  I may not necessarily like it, but I understand it and that has been vital to my acceptance of the situation!

FINALLY... . I'VE BEEN GIVEN ANOTHER CHANCE!  THE WORLD IS AN OPEN OPPORTUNITY FOR ME... . I AM FREE TO DATE, BUY WHATEVER I WANT, AND DO WHAT I WANT... . NOTHING IS HOLDING ME BACK AND IT FEELS AMAZING!

Sorry for the rant!  Thanks for reading


MCC 

Be beyond thinking about whether they know or not... .

The fact is, what you feel is real. Whether they know or not is insignificant. They probably feel wounded by you, and you by them. That's my situation. I think somewhere they know, just as somewhere we have compassion for them... .

We need to get to that acceptance stage :).

And we can have compassion / empathy for them, but it's no longer our responsibility.

They are "wounded" from the world... . they are always the "victim" of their own actions.  They live in a world of denial.

And you're right... . whether they "know" or not is really irrelevant at this point.  IT'S ENTIRELY ABOUT YOU NOW!

It's about maintaining OUR OWN happiness... . rediscovering OURSELVES... . we cannot possibly carry that burden any longer in our lives... . IT'S NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY!

May she rest in peace!   

MCC

I got chills reading this. Maybe there is hope for me.

There is always hope... . that is what will help get us all through this to become wiser and stronger people.

Some good learnings here - encouraging to see.   |iiii

I'm so screwed up. I felt really good,almost strong,after I read the post about what you have learned. Haven't really cried that much and felt like I was coming out of the sadness and moving forward in the grief process. Then I found myself crying like a little bi*ch. holding on to my sadness because its the only thing that I have left of her. Not wanting to let go. Feeling like I'm ripped apart all over again. She was so freaking bad for me. Smh again

They usually not only know, but probably they planned it and are sometimes even giddy about it.

The reason is that they are developmentally stunted... (stuck just before developing empathy)_... and in a partner... . you REALLY want empathy.

BPD is an attachment disorder, it is attributed mostly to a fear of abandonment... . like a little kid that cries when the mommy leaves the room. To worry about how other people feel and are effected you have to move past just worrying about how you feel and are effected... . which seems to be the issue. Most the time it is all about them... . whatever they want, feel, fear... its central. They start out idealizing and love bombing you... . giving the impression of a super caring perfect person... . but it is play acting, and doesn't run deep.

If you think of them as a unruly sneaky kid in an adult's body... . they tend to be much easier to understand. When my kid was about 3 she was in pre-school and got mad at her teacher and tried to stab her in the back with a pencil... she didn't care that it hurt the other person... she was 100% about herself at that point... . by 5 she worried about kittys getting out in road, and other people and all kinds of things that take empathy... . and was horrified to hear she had tried to stick a teacher with a pencil a few years before. So at 5 years old my kid had honesty emotions my exBPDgf still doesnt (and she is in her mid 40's now.)

It is very hard to think of someone that seems adult without putting ourselves in their place... then being surprised... . but unless you are equally disordered in the same way, you feel empathy and have a concern about hurting other people. They often feel a lot of shame... . like kids do, but it doesn't necessarily change what they do much.

ted by: charred

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They usually not only know, but probably they planned it and are sometimes even giddy about it.


I think for me this is what is difficult to wrap my head around.  I have a four year old and I honestly have never her seen her 'giddy' or happy taking pleasure in purposefully hurting another person, much less someone they were supposed to love. 

I know that my exBPD SO planned it all out, even asking me a month before the finale something vague like, 'what would you do if you had to start over?'  and then with pictures of her engagement to the new guy on FB- all while she was telling me she wanted to be friends with me and FB friends, all while she had the new guy Block me on FB so I couldn't see the pictures of him on her page ... . not only childish, but just evil. 

I see relevance Scotis in you saying she planned it out. Seems like they're so paranoid and busy planning out their perceived futures demise instead of living in the present. My ex had made comments that seem like he may have had planned out his perceived outcome. He once said that wouldn't it make sense to date other people because it would make OUR relationship stronger? Uhhhh... . I don't think so. There's a bunch of other examples but they all lead the same path... . him and his disordered thinking that only center around himself. His ideas only benefit him. But he sure makes himself believe it's benefiting us both.

It's a messed up mind that they have. They pick and choose the path they feel will gratify them at that moment with no regard to how it comes out and how it might affect you.

I would hope that they don't know the damage they are doing.  But really, when I look back and examine the bad stuff my ex did, it is really hard to believe that she acted without knowing.  She lacked (still does) insight into her illness and refused to believe anything was wrong with her.  She said she "may have some issues" but nothing more than anyone else.

I believe that it comes down in life of how you treat other people and how you are remembered by them.  If it's bad actions, and behavior that is your m.o. then you will be known for that. 

Like many on this site, I have been filtering out a lot of the bad that they do and just remembering the good. (working on that one!) 

Here's just one small example of how effing selfish my ex was.  I once bought her two very, very expensive concert tickets (front rows, backstage passes etc) as a gift. She then thought that she could take her friend to the concert rather than me.  She got mad when I said that the tickets were for us, not for her and her friend and she truly thought I was being selfish by giving her the tickets with the "stipulation" that we go together.  Who does that?  Regardless of mental illness.

So I don't know whether or not they know how much they hurt us, but we all know the damage they inflict.

MCC please tell me how you got there. I need to move forward and lose the sadness and anxiety. I don't contact her. I self reflect. I cry. I try to get out of my self. It's been almost five months for me. I feel like I'm not making much progress. I want the pain to stop once and for all.  How long for you?

I feel that they do know what they are doing on some level and I do believe they are aware they hurt us. But they can't take responsibility for it or acknowledge it because then they would have to deal with the shame and guilt that comes with it. So it is easier to push blame on someone else. My ex BPD told me when she left me for someone else that genocide offer her the one thing herbalists wanted... . a family. Funny thing was we were a.family. Her kids were my kids and we did everything a.family does. It just didn't move as fast as she wanted. So she sped it up and found someone else who would.give her what she wanted right then and now. This is what I found hard to believe... . She would say she didn't love him and she didn't want him. That she loved me and wants  me. But she was willing to stay with him to fill this fantasy in her mind of what her family should look like. Never mind he is head over heels in love with her... . She doesn't feel an ounce love towards him but she is willing to play along to play out this family life.in her mind. I feel sorry for the guy. To be in love with someone who really doesn't love you but then I think he dug his own grave... . Lay in it.

Thanks for the question... . as this was / (still is slightly) a process for me... . total time I guess would be about 2 years, but this wasn't the conventional break up and never talk again... .

I recycled with mine about 5+ times over the past 2 years... . this was detrimental to my recovery, to say the least, but end the end when I finally had enough, it turned out to be the silver lining of the entire situation!  Let me explain... .

Every time we'd recycle, it would obviously reignite old feelings... . then we'd break up after a few weeks and the cycle of pain would start all over again!  Talk about crazy, I know... .

BUT... . then somewhere along the way, I shifted the concentration on MYSELF... . it was foreign to me as it was a whole new way of thinking... .

I began going to the gym... . everyday! I immersed myself in working out, sometimes 2x a day.  I dove into my work, my friends, my family... .

For me, this provided such clarity of the situation.  It enabled me to see things in a whole new light!

I participated in this board on a daily basis, and I still do.  I found this effective because even as I type this, I am constantly realizing new things about MYSELF and the r/s!

For me, my understanding was the key to acceptance.  I am quite a logical thinker and problem solver by nature, and my xBPD was literally the puzzle that I had to put together.  Now that it's together, I can safely take it apart, put it back in the box, and put it in the closet... . lol

As I was improving my own self worth by the actions that I said above, I found myself wanting more... . more from life... . more from a r/s... . the bar was raised, so to speak because I deserve more!

So, in May, the x tried to come around again.  I did communicate with her for a few weeks, but I could see things so much more clearly now... . She was on another rebound, attempting to triangulate me with someone else.  Was still trying to bait me, use jealousy against me, and hurt me... .

I fell into this for a minute, but I quickly got to the point to where I WAS DONE!  I had enough.  I was sick and tired of being sick and tired.  For the first time in 4 years of knowing her, I was able to stand up for MYSELF.  I laid the boundary that she was not going to continue to treat me like that anymore!  Needless to say, she disappeared after that... .

Come July, we talked briefly.  I told her that I was not hanging onto the anger/hate for her any longer... . It's too exhausting and takes too much out of MY life!  This, as with everything else with her, was dismissed.  She, of course, had to flip it around and take it as an "attack," and told me not to contact her anymore.  (mind you, she was the one who contacted me in the first place?)  Needless to say, NC since then and I could really care less if I ever speak to her again... .

So, If you've made it this far into this saga, my point is that as I became healthier, I saw the actions that I chose to ignore before... . I saw that she is the same person who was repeating the same patterns.  There was nothing different about her.  Nothing that I wanted to try and hold onto anyways... . I was no longer in fear of her and she no longer had any control over ME!  I lived too long having to filter my words/actions trying to gain her "approval," and quite frankly I grew sick of how dismissive and shi^^y she made me feel!  I reclaimed my testicles from her purse!

MCC

So very excellent MCC!

LT

Thank you MCC for indulging my with that. Sorry you had to recycle and stay stuck in the crap for so long but it sounds like you have your head on straight at last and that is what I need. I am slowly getting there. There is no roadmap so depend on watching others that succeed and ask them how they did it. I am all about the self reflection but not perfect. I still fall into the "her" at times. That is the worst and I recognize it but the feelings don't just evaporate. Again, thank you.

I think when you are ready to accept them as they are... it becomes much easier and then you can finally let go. Helps a lot to have someone you are seeing. Was going on very mild slow dates with a gal about 6 mos ago... was still drawn to exBPDgf... but enjoying dinner and movies and having someone that you could talk with helped a lot. (Didn't talk about pwBPD at all.) Started thinking I would take things to next level, went to lunch with exwife and asked if she was sure we were done (since I was going to move on)... and she broke down a bit and said she wanted to be dating and spending time with me... and with a couple lovely/sane women making it clear they didn't share my exBPDgf''s stated view of me (devils inlaw of some sort from what I recall)... I finally was able to stick to the NC and move on.

Working out helps a great deal, can get stress out in a healthy way... gives some time to think. Found that back when I was hurting from my pwBPD taking up immediately with another guy and flaunting it... . resolving the anger/hurt by exercising much harder did wonders. After that I would start to feel bad for the guy and want to warn him... . which to me meant it was effective at dealing with it.