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After almost five months of more drama than you could shake a stick at, now it's like it never even happened.  My husband and I were invited to dinner at daughter and SIL's house tonight, and it was completely normal and pleasant. The last time we were there was in February, not long before all hell broke loose when DD found out that I discussed her BPD behavior with her now former best friend. 

DD had cooked us a meal and showed us all kinds of projects she and her husband have done on their house.  She had bought a number of things since I was there last and truly had the place looking like it belonged in a magazine.  If I didn't know better, I would think I dreamed the last few months and that it never happened.  We talked and enjoyed each other's company like we've done many times before.  No problems whatsoever.  Of course, she bragged on herself and made most of the evening all about her--but not every second--so that was encouraging. 

She was really in her element tonight.  Friendly, outgoing, happy that we enjoyed her cooking (it was fabulous) and proud of improvements she had made to her home and craft projects she is working on and selling. She recently made commission for the first time at her job and will be bringing home more money each month so she was happy about that, too.  When she feels good about herself, she doesn't need drama and there was none tonight.  I wish it could always be like this.

WOW!

Kind of like that nursery rhyme... . when she was good, she was very very good

                                                  when she was bad, she was horrid

The girl with the little curl in the middle of her forehead.

Seems like pwBPD depend on good luck and need it to function... .

Reality

verbena

WOW! I am speechless... . how wonderful for you all to be able to enjoy each others company. I wouldn't waste time wondering what happened just enjoy the new reality!  

Reality,

Just thinking about that nursery rhyme makes me so sad.  When I was little, my mother taught me lots of nursery rhymes and I would say, "There was a little girl who had a little curl right in the middle of her FORWARD" and my mother still laughs about that.  

But yes, that is exactly what it's like.  I kept thinking last night when I got home how easy it would be to get lulled into a false sense of  hope or security because she seems so good right now.  I know it's just a matter of time... .

I am trying to stand strong with the boundaries I have set for myself  (I've haven't and won't discuss them with her), but it's hard.  She is already trying to pull me back in with suggestions/offers that I be involved in social events with her and others.  She asked me last night if I wanted to help give a bridal shower for her husband's cousin at her house.  She was very tentative when she said I could help if I wanted to.  I wish I had said "we'll see" or "maybe" instead of "yes".  Still kicking myself for that.  I just don't want to be around her with her friends present.  I don't plan to bring it up again and am hoping she forgets she asked me.  How sad that I don't want to help my daughter host an event at her house, something I have done a number of times.  

She also said her MIL was excited we were spending time together again and couldn't wait for all of us to do things together again.  I really like her MIL a lot and have enjoyed spending time with her in-laws in the past, but I want to avoid that, too, when I can.  Ugh.  We could have a wonderful relationship if she would just allow it, but she won't and I have to accept that.  

jellibeans,

You're right that I shouldn't worry about the future and just enjoy the right now, but I've been burned so many times that it's hard not to think that way.  I am very grateful for last night and thankful she seems willing to move on.  I am determined, though, not to get pulled in too much.  Thanks for your response!

verbena,

I am sorry that I added a negative tone to your thread.  

The nursery rhyme just seemed to fit the way pwBPD are, depending on how life is treating them.  

It struck me that these mental health issues have been around for a long time.

Reality

I hope your daughter continues to live well.  It does sound lovely.

Reality, you weren't being negative, just realistic.  I welcome all comments when I post here. 

Today was my birthday and DD asked to take me and her dad to lunch.  She paid.  And  she had a check for the past two months insurance and cell phone which she owed us.  In less than two weeks she'll owe us again, but I can't seem to get my husband to put his foot down and ask her to get her own insurance/cell plan.  I will be the bad buy if I say anything because she knows I don't handle any of that.  Anyway, we had a nice lunch.  She was the same as Sunday night--bubbly, friendly, non-dramatic.  She talked about herself the entire time and tooted her own horn, but at least she wasn't stirring up the past or trying to start something with me. 

I'm so grateful that we seemed to have moved on and that she is being "good", but the relationship feels so superficial, empty, and one-sided, but it's better than nothing and certainly better than it has been the last six months. 

has she been any therapy or taking any medication?  Just wondering. 

Hi, Verbena     and Happy Birthday!  *)

What's been happening with your daughter seems to be a miracle, really, when you think about it. When you first came here, she was so angry at you and spending the times that you interacted with her blaming you and being disrespectful. There was no calming her down or getting through to her. I do remember those days, and the pain and heartache you were going through because she treated you so poorly. It was really bad!

Then, you started learning the tools of validation and S.E.T. and setting boundaries. I know that it's not always easy to do it and do it right, but you learned them, tried, and used the tools as best you could. Things softened up in tiny little steps, communication lines opened up in tiny little steps, and now your daughter has taken you out to lunch for your birthday after a Sunday night that was great! Woohoo!

I'm thinking that maybe all that hard work and learning, practicing, and carefully using your new tools of communication have opened up that tunnel to let the light in? I'm thinking that your daughter may have felt the change in you, therefore has now changed right along with you? I'm thinking that once you maybe soften up your heart just a little bit--and I know that the fear of the past coming back is really daunting--maybe your relationship with your daughter will feel 2-sided, full, and substantial? I know there is a chance you could be hurt, but sometimes when someone gives us a gift, the best thing we can do is accept it with grace, and love, and affection... . Fear is a real thing, but it also can make it hard to look up and see that light that we've been waiting for. What do you think?   

eeyore, I am almost certain she is not taking medication or going to therapy.  She and her husband are against both because according to them, there is nothing wrong with her.

Rapt Reader,

I have learned some tools here that I know will help me in the future deal with my dd's behaviors, and they may have helped to get us to where we are now.  However, after using those tools and seeing a little improvement, DD ramped up the drama at the end of July making it feel like we were moving backward, not forward.  That is when my husband sent the e-mail making it clear that we were DONE with this.  I believe it was my husband's e-mail that made the real difference because it was after that when she changed her tune. 

He did not hold back in his e-mail and I did not expect her to take it well.  I really thought we might go NC completely after he sent it.  So yes, it is something of a miracle that a week after the e-mail the tide turned.  We were never good at boundaries with her, but he sent a clear message in that e-mail of what our boundaries were. 

I also suspect that she simply grew tired of this particular conflict.  She had milked it for all it was worth, and she was ready for it to be over. That is typically what happens.   Unless she truly changes, there is a new conflict on the horizon to take the place of this recent one between us.  I want to be optimistic and I'm trying to be, but I know the pattern. 

So I am enjoying the peace we have now and praying it lasts.  I am not going to question her, tell her anything she doesn't want to hear, or get too involved in her life and set myself up for the push/pull game.  I have learned a lot since joining this board and feel a great sense of relief that I can stop wasting my energy and emotions trying to change her and focus on changing me instead. 

Happy birthday for yesterday Verbena   ... . there's no stopping that clock is there?   

An article I am reading at the moment says that pw BPD see themselves as victims because we do not understand them... . they do not recognise the effect of their behaviour on us. Theirs is a world of distorted mirrors.


This is just how I feel. I cannot initiate any contact at the moment because it makes me feel so sad and sick. It has however been pointed out to me by objective observers who know about this stuff, that even if superficial, there is hope in this relationship.

I am so happy for you, that even though it is as you say, you can spend a pleasant time with your dd. It is good you have those boundaries in place.

take care Verbena,

Vivek    

" the relationship feels so superficial, empty, and one-sided, but it's better than nothing"

this is how i feel with my 29 year old daughter.  Its as if she is so engrossed in her pain that she can not realize that parents are hurting too.  She never ever asks me how any of the cousins, aunt, uncle are doing.  Never initiates contact with them either.

Vivek ,

Thank you for your response.  If I haven't told you before, you are an excellent writer.  This last post, in particular, just jumped out at me as being so easy to read and so profound.  Sorry, I am a former teacher and tend to critique these things!

My daughter definitely plays the victim.  She will bend over backward doing things for people (often people she isn't even that close to) and then complain that she is so giving and kind and that people don't do enough for her.  For example, she will cook a great meal and take it to a family with a new baby, or she'll make some adorable craft item and give it to them.  She ALWAYS takes a picture of the food or the gift and posts on Facebook.  Then she can get the recognition she craves.  Down the road when she is feeling inadequate, she will pull out the victim card and carry on about how mistreated she is by others when she has done so much for them. 

I'm sorry  that initiating contact with your daughter right now makes you feel sad and sick.    Do you think it's because you'll let your guard down and have  higher expectations only to be disappointed?  That's how I see it for myself.  I intend to let my daughter initiate most--but not all--of our communication and accept that I have to let it be all about her.  It won't work any other way.  I almost feel like my own personality has to be stifled or restrained so that I won't get pulled in by her too much.  Ugh.

ilusa26,

I know exactly what you mean!  My daughter is dancing as fast as she can to make herself feel better about herself, so it's hard for her to be concerned or really take an interest in other family members.  She didn't say a word either Sunday night or yesterday about her brother who started his teaching job in China this week.  He was in England for over a year and she never quite got around to installing Skype on her computer so they could communicate even though she kept saying she was going to.  He was really hurt by that, but he's used to how she is.  Of course, she sent him some pictures of herself while he was there and posted about it on Facebook!  There has to be something in it for her, or she just won't bother. 

Happy belated birthday Verbena  

Iam so happy for you that things are going so well for you and your dd.

Its so hard for us to just take it for what it is and just relax into it as that tide is forever turning.,

I truly find that when my dd is angry at someone else then she is nice with me... . Recently it has been dd's b/f who has been getting it in the neck so she has been in contact with me more and been really pleasant, but I dont sink my heart and soul into it, so yeh it still feels very superfical.

Hi ilusa  *welcome* I see you are very much a newbie   

I am glad you have joined us here. We have a bit in common I think    Can I suggest you start your own thread and introduce yourself to the parents here, so you can really join us. If you have in particular concerns or comments to make that's a good way to do it. I know that others will say that the support and guidance we get from each other here is the best thing. I know it saved me and my sanity. I am glad to see you posting on the threads of others too, it is the easiest way to learn about BPD and the skills we use.

Hey Verbena why thank so much ma'am for your kind comments! From one English teacher to another I can say I think we have a bit in common! I think my sadness and stomach churning with my dd is not just because it is superficial conversation, but because she simply doesn't want to see me. She feels it is a burden on her - she does believe she has been abused by me and this view point has been reinforced by her T. Her belief would be that if she has nothing to do with me, then she'd be ok. So, when she is with me, she is alert and on guard and ready for anything that is not warmly and enthusiastically endorsed. She is darned hard to validate, she gives nothing away really. I have no knowledge of what goes on in her world. Last time we met, I suggested that it wasn't realistic to try to develop a relationship with 3 one hour visits a year, that we needed to meet more often perhaps. She got very heated. So, I thought, ok I should let it go. I suppose I could initiate more contact, but really that superficial stuff just isn't me.

dh saw her at a Father's Day lunch for his dad. He got up from his seat to sit where she was because he thought if he didn't he would get a chance to speak with her. And it was the same hostile frostiness under a calm exterior of superficial chatter. I am glad I wasn't there.

At least I know I am doing no harm... . I am here and still loving and ready to support her, whenever she needs or wants.

I have been doing more reading and it was said that pw BPD see themselves as victims. Their world is one of distorted mirrors and our communications are based on different perceptions of the world. When we don't see the world their way, they feel invalidated.

cheers,

Vivek    

I used to have a friend that was a natural (Pirelli-like) horse trainer.  She wanted to promote her style of training to the more popular barns and needed help with communicating to the barn managers what she was all about so I accompanied her a few times.  At one particular barn the manager told her "it doesn't do the retrained horse any good to change if you return it to an unchanged owner".  That same philosophy has applied to myself and my daughter.  If I treat her as she has been in the past then any progress she makes will be short lived due to discouragement.  If I treat her as the person I know she can be and wants to be then I create a pathway forward... . not stuck in the past.  It is a selfless gift and one I have the strength in love to give.  It is a choice I make consciously and with hope each and every day.

Don't be afraid to give her the gifts of hope, love, and compassion.  You will both be better for it.  Each day is a new day to recreate ourselves, the past is done, a new day comes.

Well, this evening it was NOT like it had never even happened.  I texted DD this afternoon to ask a question about a recipe I need for a cookbook I am doing.  She called me back later to answer my question, and the next thing I knew I was getting a lecture about Facebook.  I got rid of my personal page during our time of mostly NC but reinstated it once I realized I needed it in order to make posts on my design FB page.  I had stopped posting and commenting on anything months ago, even before this last major conflict, and I have continued with that.  I only use it now to occassionally post pictures of my design work on both my personal and design pages.  

DD said she got several texts from her friends yesterday who claimed they couldn't post happy birthday wishes to me on my page and were wondering if I had blocked them.  I haven't blocked anyone but I did go in and remove everyone from my newsfeed.  I find most of what's on FB very annoying and fake.  I only have a few sites that come up in my newsfeed and I like it that way.  If I want to see what someone is doing, I can type in their name and look.   DD says it is rude for me to only use my FB for my business, that I should comment on family things occasionally because that just shows my love for my family.  I told her I understood where she was coming from (validation) but that I didn't need FB to show my love.  She said I should just delete my page if that was how I felt.  I repeated why I reinstated my page. She repeated her position.  I repeated mine.  

Then before I knew it, she was talking about the whole me- talking- to -her- former best friend -thing which started this 6-month conflict we just got past.  She claims this friend told someone (who told someone who told her) that I said I would have nothing to do with my daughter if I had the choice.  Of course, I never said that and I told her so. She named several people who agreed that I would never say that. I really wonder if there is anyone in this town who does not know our business.  

DD wanted me to admit that the former best friend fed me lies and fueled the fire by talking to me, that without this friend this whole mess would not have happened.   I was willing to admit that there were a few incidents I was told about by the friend that I might not have otherwise known and that I regretted her telling me and that I regretted talking to her period.  I would not go along with the last part of her statement, though.  Because it is not true.  I kept it short and sweet, but I told DD that before I even knew her friend, I had the same concerns and she knew what they were because she (dd) and I had discussed them.  I told her I did not want to dwell on any of this now, or ever again, because she was a grown woman and was capable of living her life as she saw fit. I basically just repeated everything I had said before so many times but in fewer words.  

As I knew she would, DD wants me to embrace her friends again.  She says she will be hurt if I won't have anything to do with any of them.  I told her that it is best for me not to be involved in her personal relationships, that they are her friends.  My only real involvement with her friends before is that I saw them at her house, or at my house when she lived here, or at social events with DD.  They liked me, I liked them, there were occasional FB comments from them.  I want no part of that now because I always get burned.  I didn't put it that way to her, but that's the truth.

DD was calm for most of the conversation but did begin to cry at one point and say she was a good daughter and that I should be thankful she was a good daughter, that she was not a flawed person.  I can spot projection a mile away now and there was a ton of it in this conversation that I won't even go into because this is already a novel.  I'm just frustrated that she is still not really over this and still can't just let it go.  She has to deflect and blame.  She can't admit that her behavior is not acceptable and THAT is the reason all this happened.  Her behavior is at the root of it all.  

This board and what I've read and tried to learn here helped me keep this conversation with my daugher today from being a disaster.  She is so needy, so insecure, and so unable to be honest with herself.  I felt compassion for her today that I don't always feel when she projects and blames and does this dance with me that she has almost perfected.  It ended well with me telling her I had to go so I could clean up for church.  I told her I loved her and to have a good evening.  

Sigh.  One day at a time... .

Sounds like you maintained YOUR boundaries.  Good for you.  Sounds like there's a lot of finger pointing and blame.  It's good you are trying to stay out of it by just having a relationship with your daughter. 

I second this.

My advice if you wanted it would be to try to revert to just validation and not try to justify or 'argue'. Validate and stick to your boundaries and continue to learn.

Vivek    

Oh dear, having read this thread from top to bottom, I was sad but not surprised to come to your last post where things are going horribly awry again.  As the daughter of a BPD, and the stepmom of a BPD I completely understand the cycle that you have found yourself in.  My mom likes to dance the same dance that your daughter does... .So I have empathy for the no-win situation you find yourself in.  After 30 years or so of getting my hand burned every time I held it out to my mother, I really did find that all I could do was reduce my expectations and reduce my time with her to avoid being hurt.  I've changed the way that I view everything, but as long as she sees things the same way, there's no way that the situation can be resolved - So I moved on.  I haven't very much to offer in the way of advice, but I'm sending you a hug!

eeyore and Vivek ,

Thanks for the encouragement.  I'm not so sure, however,  I really maintained by boundaries at all now that I really think about it.  I engaged in yet another conversation about this whole mess and allowed my dd to say the same things to me she has been saying since the beginning of this recent mess. She may have been calm during most of the conversation, but it was the same conversation.

My husband and I have both made it clear to her that she needed to drop it because we were done with it.  We had said all we could.  We were moving on.  We weren't going back and re-hashing everything with her.  And yet that is really what happened in our conversation. 

From the very beginning of this, my dd has wanted one thing--for me to agree that her friend lied to me and influenced me to believe terrible things about her and that I am wrong in thinking there are any problems with her behavior or that she has BPD.  She is completely ignoring the years and years of terrible behavior and one incident after another that have nothing to do at all with her friend.  She cannot stand the thought of me thinking she has problems, and she is not going to rest until I admit to her that she is just fine, her friend is the devil, and I am the one with problems.  (She alluded again in our phone conversation the other day about me having "issues" of my own.) 

She didn't end this conflict as I originally thought because she was tired of it and had taken it as far as she could.  She's just trying a different strategy to get what she wants.  If she can pull me back in by being nice and acting normal, she can eventually get me to say the things she needs to hear.  It makes me sick to admit this, but I need to be honest with myself about what is going on. 

I have made up my mind that I am not going to engage in any more conversations about her former best friend and me talking to this friend.  I can validate her in other ways, but I am done validating anything related to that.  I let her talk and talk the other day about all this and get several small digs in at me in the process.  Any more conversations about this will lead to problems.  I know what she wants from me, and it's not something I can give her. 

My dd has BPD and she needs help.   I don't intend to ever tell her that again or do anything that will create conflict between us if I can help it, but I am not going to lie to her so she can pretend nothing is wrong. 

Just asking questions for thought and to have a better understanding. 

I'm perplexed, all of the above seem to be in conflict.  I can see you want healthy for your family. How does one be honest and not create conflict when it comes to BPD?  I don't know the answer but am wondering how parents deal with this.  Isn't lying by omission still lying?  By participating here you seem to want to  examine how you may be contributing to the difficulties in the relationship.  Could/Have you examine how to be ok with expressing the "truth"?   Is your husband also participating in trying to find new communication skills?  Is he supportive of you?  Have you and your husband been to any counseling or therapy?  Since your daughter was diagnosed, has she gone to any therapy?  None of this is your "fault".  Sometime situations are the pits. We learn how to make lemonade with our lemons. 

eeyore,

DD had a few sessions of therapy ten years back and was hopitalized briefly when she was 18.  I have not been in therapy and my husband certainly hasn't as he does not "believe in it."  He believes the BPD diagnosis made ten years ago and he supports me in trying to make things with dd better.  However, he stopped trying to help her himself years ago and stepped away from her drama.  Until the past few months, their relationship for some time now had been calm, but superficial.  My husband knows that I post here but doesn't see the point of it.  For him, the bottom line is that nothing is really going to change no matter what we do if dd isn't willing to change.  I have tried to explain some of the techniques here that I am trying, but he isn't interested in reading about them himself.  Truthfully, he was already some of these techniques without knowing it. 

My husband says I should have shut her down the other day when she wanted to discuss again the issue of me talking to the former best friend about the BPD behavior.   He agrees with me that she is sucking me back in with the hope that I will eventually tell her what she needs to hear so she can be absolved of any wrong doing. 

It is impossible to express the truth with DD about her behavior without major chaos.  I have learned that finally and will not try to do it anymore.  The problem is that she knows what I think about her behavior even if I don't say anything.  And she can't stand that.  She can't be wrong and it can't be her fault.  So she makes it my fault or her former friend's fault. 

The thing is if everyone just ignores the problem it won't just go away.  In fact my concern is that it will get worse for you.  I understand your husband doesn't believe in Therapy.  From what I read he is handling her as if she was a non rather than a diagnosed BPD.  Therefore, I read you may not be getting as much support from him, which I understand is common for moms.  You haven't said how you feel about Therapy.  Would you consider going to a NAMI family to family class to help you learn skills to help you?  That is a class for family of a BPD. 

I agree it's not good to pick up the gauntlet, sometimes it's helpful to get to a point where people can agree to disagree.  That way each accepts the other.  And you can feel comfortable with Your Truth.  Otherwise you may regret not being honest with yourself.  I see struggle and frustration in your replies and hope people here can help you overcome the challenges. Many come here just to vent and maybe that's what you seek.  I just hope for you to have solutions that make you feel better about the situation.  Allowing poor behavior is not conducive to boundary setting.  Many times setting good boundaries feels wrong when in fact it's the best thing we can do for the situation.  Have you been able to set clear boundaries for the relationship?

Here is a link to the communication Workshop:  Arguing - don't engage

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107.0

Hi Verbena,

If your dd starts up again on the squeaking wheel routine about the friend situation, whether you just develop a few responses that you can practise, to deflect the issue, eg

"I know you feel frustrated by this, I don't have anything more to add to the conversation though."

"Everyone feels sad if they think they have been betrayed. However, I don't think you were betrayed." (but the word betrayed might be a trigger here... .maybe not a good one)

"You have been hurt by what happened. I am sorry you are hurt. I can add no more to the conversation."

It might help to revisit validation first, here is an excellent video on validation. It goes for about 50 mins and you'll need a pen and paper to takes notes:

Understanding Validation in Families - Alan E. Fruzzetti, PhD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSIYTQX_dk)

I think eeyore's suggestion for face to face support for yourself is a good idea.

cheers,

Vivek    

eeyore,

I am not opposed to therapy.  In fact, I looked into for myself a couple of years ago only to find out that my insurance won't cover one red cent of it.  At nearly $200 a pop, I just couldn't do it.  And my husband would not feel it was money well spent to be sure.  We've talked and talked and talked about our daughter's issues for years and years, so he doesn't understand why I would want to talk about it to someone else--or for that matter talk about it here.  I need this board, though, not just to vent but for ideas on how other people in similar situations are coping. 

I absolutely agree that ignoring the problem won't make it go away.  The problem is, my daughter (and now her husband) insist she doesn't have any problems!  They are deluding themselves, but I can't change that.  I just want to handle her better than I have in the past so I can have some peace finally. 

Vivek ,

I have given some thought to face-to-face support in some sort of group.  I have a real fear, though, that I will see someone there who knows my daughter (she knows everybody in our medium-sized city) and my daughter will find out.  The drama that would come from that is beyond my comprehension. 

Your suggestions on answers to practice are right on the money, and I will definitely use of them the next time--and there will be a next time.   

Please look into the family to family group classes by NAMI.  It's a support group. They have them all over the place so you might find one local to you if you are in the States.  And they are free. 

here where I live they have local groups.  But if I was concerned about someone knowing me there are groups in nearby cities that I could drive to but aren't in my city.  It can't hurt to look to see where they are, right?

eeyore,

I think there are classes here, but I can check to make sure.  I am just so afraid I will see someone I know there and word will get back to my daughter that I was there.  She knows many, many people and that would be just my luck.  It would be VERY bad if she thought I was seeking help because of her issues (which she doesn't have) and talking about her.  Unless I could be guaranteed that she wouldn't find out, I couldn't do it.  

eeyore,

I'm checking on-line right now to see if there are any not too far away.  I know it would help me if I would go.  I do need face-to-face support like you said. 

Verbena, my face to face group insists on confidentiality... .the people who attend would be very sensitive, if anyone blabbed, then they would be vulnerable to being blabbed about. I have found the people I have met with really caring and like the people on the boards here. We are caught up in the reasons we attend and find it easy to be sympathetic to each other.

You are worried about your dd finding out - I get that! I am prepared too. I attend my face to face meeting for myself, it's for me and my problems. So, if dd has any problems with that, I would say to her - find your own group to talk to about your problems, I have my group for my problems  .

And yes, blow me down one night when some people we know showed up ... .well three people, two different families. And we feel for each other with our 'dirty secrets', 'cos that's how it felt to me at the time ... .all this secrecy... .

It is not rocket science, but face to face support groups are supportive... .even if you don't say anything much, just knowing that there are others in the same boat, and seeing them, helps. And then it can put you into contact with local resources too.

I hope you find a group to try out (and speak to the co-ordinator of the group about your concerns).

Vivek