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Hi all.  Checking in because I could really use your thoughts at this juncture.

As some of you know, I've been involved in a close, though tumultuous, friendship with my uBPDexbf for the past year.  Before that, we had 10 months of NC, my choice, because even though after our breakup he told me he needed to learn to be alone, he immediately seemed to be pursuing a r/s with his exgf, and that was too painful for me to watch.  I needed NC to get my feet under me, accept that our r/s and very brief recycling effort ended because there are triggers everywhere for him, and not be constantly trying to earn his love and be worthy of him choosing me as a romantic partner -- dynamics I recognized in myself and wanted to avoid.

When I felt I'd arrived at that point of acceptance, I got back in touch & offered a genuine friendship.  I meant it.  When I look back at my emails from that time (a year ago), not only to him but also to other friends, I was just adamant about this.

However, our "friendship" immediately assumed many of the dimensions of a romantic partnership, though without any physical r/s.  (In many ways I think this is the ideal long term r/s for him -- he is a childhood sex abuse survivor & I think he finds sex terrifying and he cannot trust that someone isn't getting close to him just to have sexual access to him, so us setting that aside relieves a lot of anxiety.)  It has remained that way for the past year, albeit with a lot of push/pull.  We are very emotionally intimate.  He has gone places with me I think he rarely if ever has gone with previous romantic partners.  In his own way, he has put in a lot of effort to grow and maintain connection even though the closeness clearly, regularly, freaks him out.

On the other hand, he suddenly moved across the country this spring, has subjected me to weeks of silent treatment several times when I've tried to explore the nature of and expectations for our r/s, and so on.  It hasn't been an uninterrupted picture of intimacy.  It's been episodes of increasing intimacy punctuated by periods of intense withdrawal.  Standard BPD rhythm, even with the label of "friendship."

My problem is this.  We're just coming off of a period of a couple of months of increasing closeness.  He met my family for the first time & we both traveled to meet up twice in different places.  It's been pretty wonderful.  One feature of this is that for the past two months, he's been confiding with me often via text about significant (and insignificant) events of his day, like you would with a partner.  I try to say I have no expectations about this, but I'd be lying to say that when it starts happening, I don't get hopeful about the idea that we are growing and learning and coming to trust each other & getting to a point where we might be able to have a real romantic r/s again.  Again, not because this was or is my objective in being friends, but because the closeness is such that your mind finds it inevitable that this would lead to something more.  In normal life, it would.

And that is all tolerable.  I could do it indefinitely -- not in a hurry to get anything resolved, willing to be "in process" with this relationship, and to allow intimacy to take us where it takes us.

But.  He has suddenly decreased the level and closeness of the communication, and for a variety of reasons, my intuition tells me it has to do with him pursuing another woman in his new city.  He seems deeply engaged with whatever is going on there, in the way he is in the early days of a new r/s.

I experienced extreme pain when he got involved with his ex after we split two years ago.  I was full of that awful doubt about "why not me?  what if he comes through for her in a way he wasn't willing to for me?"  That didn't happen, and I am not feeling that same "why not me?" feeling this time -- I realize the attraction of a new person is that she is new, nothing has gone wrong yet, he still thinks she could be The One, and so on.  It's not something that lasts long, at least, not with him, not ever in his 50 year lifetime.

But.  I still am having the hardest time with this, I guess because it feels like the 10th major betrayal in our history -- a betrayal of our actual feelings for one another and our actual actions and closeness, not a betrayal of any explicit promises, which we haven't made to each other.  And I can't quite figure out how to orient myself toward him while he is doing this.  I want to be true to my promises to him.  I didn't have to come back into his life as a friend, and I did.  And for me, and for us, I want to be wise and realize that our project is a long-term one.  We've both drawn boundaries that should get us through this -- we are friends, theoretically, that isn't at odds with what he's doing.

But at some deep level, I feel that it is.  I want him to safeguard our r/s, to view it as the precious thing it is, to recognize that it doesn't come along often and cannot just be replaced.  I still, after all this time, have a hard time processing why he left me.  The stated reason got debunked when we met up to discuss getting back together, and other than "I need to learn to be alone," there was never another reason.  Yet, when we reconnected and it was so great and felt so close, he was adamant that this was "friends only."  Why?  Why does he not want to explore what we could be together?  My hurt about this is making it hard to figure out how to navigate this new situation in which he probably is seeing someone else.

We are still emailing in our normal warm, thoughtful way, but there are no texts and no plans to see each other for months.  I feel suddenly like a buddy, and that was so not the case even two weeks ago -- I was his primary confidante, and very much his "person," if you know what I mean.

I'd really appreciate any guidance about how to pick my way through this next period & maintain my integrity, self respect and all that is good and hopeful about our r/s.

patientandclear it sounds like you've done a lot of thinking and growth since going NC and then initiating a friendship with your ex. i can relate in that i kept in a "friendship" with my ex, meaning a text here and there, maybe a visit a couple times a month or so, while we were both dating others. the reason i put quotes around "friendship"? two reasons. one was that i knew truthfully that i wanted to reconcile and be with this person; i was fine being friends as long as we were respectful of one another, but ultimately i was in full awareness that i wanted to be back with this person (because at the time i didn't know what BPD was; didn't understand the full scope of her manipulations). the second reason for the quotes on "friendship" is because that's not really what it was--we were respectful of each other, sure, but basically i had to stuff away all of the pain that she had put me through during our breakup. with any real friendship, i would be able to talk with my friend, tell them how hurt i was and get a heartfelt apology, or at least some respectful dialogue regarding the betrayals that had taken place. instead, the "friendship" that existed meant i had to stuff away my hurt, walking on those eggshells, so that we could be "friends" and not argue.

i love your user name b/c that's kind of the approach i took to reconciling with my ex. i was patient... .and only somewhat clear about my intentions (as i stated, i didn't fully understand who i was dealing with, still doubtful of who she was and who i was for that matter).

what i will say is this. perhaps 10 months or so after our breakup, she'd broken up with her rebound b/f about 2 months previous, was dating someone new, but at least according to her this was nothing serious. over the course of 2 weeks or so, we had really deep conversations about our r/s that should/could have occurred months or years earlier if she weren't so disordered. she even would say some things to take responsibility for things she did wrong in our r/s, which shocked me--not full apologies but at least some recognition and awareness. so, after these convos with her, and seeing that both of us were dating others but not completely committed yet, i decided to put everything on the table to see if we could get back together. i've written in another post about this, and how i do not regret it. i can give you more details about this if you are interested, just let me know--but in short, by putting everything on the table i forced her hand. meaning, i told her how much she meant to me, that i wanted to try things out again, and that i respected whatever decision she made. i had decided for myself, and stated clearly to her, that if she didn't want to reconcile, that this was ok with me, that i appreciated the talks that we had--and most importantly for me--that i did want to continue a friendship with her, however i would need to take time to myself to heal. in this way, after i was able to extinguish all want of a r/s with her then we could actually be friends.

well, patientandclear, what ended up happening is my ex did everything in her power to keep me around. she didn't want me to go so she simply lied and said she wanted to reconcile, although her intentions were to keep me around for emotional support while she pursued other men. and so i'm glad that i was able to see this and further understand that this person only cared about her own needs, regardless of what she was saying.

i recommend you coming to full terms that what you really want is not a friendship, but a lifelong r/s with this person. and if you can't go NC again then the best you could do is put a time frame on things in order to 'get your answer', so to speak. my thoughts are that once you draw these boundaries of exactly what you want and specifically how long you are willing to wait for it, then you will have a solid plan to find out the truth.

most likely i think you will find that having a lifelong r/s with this person will never happen, unless that r/s means that you give everything of yourself to him, while he doles out little niceties here and there to keep you in line, while he shares himself fully with other women. then, when they figure out he's got issues and his r/s becomes problematic, he'll be able to come back to you for an ego boost (and/or sex) and throw you away again for new blood or recycles with other exes--who like you are waiting around for him to change. BPD's, both male and female seem to like to keep a harem; i simply refuse to be a part of it.

P&C, I've been following your story for a while now, and while anecdotes strung together do not make a rule, it has been one of many pointing me into one specific direction of understanding:

An pwBPD isn't going to go from a r/s to a "normal" friendship. Regardless of whether there are other (new or re-cycled) r/s happening, if your r/s with a pwBPD has the incredible push and pull dynamic, just because you "end" the r/s or take sex out of the r/s, that isn't going to go away. (Assuming the pwBPD doesn't go through treatment successfully)

So this level of intimacy in your r/s followed by pulling back (presumably for a r/s with somebody new, until that blows up) is normal for your pwBPD.

What can you do to accept this cycle and be happy in this r/s with it?

I'd just remind you that when you pick up one end of the stick (the pull / intimacy) you get the other end too (the push / withdrawal / rejection).

In this case, acceptance is recognizing that your uBPDexbf is both, and for the foreseeable future will be both, and finding your way to accept that.

 I wish there was something easier I could say than this.

 GK

Hey GK.  I concur about the inevitability of push-pull and am relatively OK with that.  It took some work to get there.

What is much harder is the sense of cognitive dissonance between our level of closeness, even if it is episodic, and the fact that we are supposedly just friends and do not have a physical r/s.  At various points, both of us have contributed to rationalizing that.  On my end, I don't trust him to cherish me or not to leave, I think his push-pull cycle would probably be more extreme if sex were introduced, and I think it would hurt me much more.  On his end ... .who knows the reason.  He announced that rule out of the blue after he'd sought me out repeatedly and we had the most wonderful time, and since, he continues to go to extremes to seek me out.  I asked him why once & he went to great lengths to avoid answering.  If I asked again, I don't know that he would know the answer, and if he does, I don't know that that is what he would tell me.  So, I don't ask.

But a large part of me longs for it to be more, and says I've learned enough now to protect myself in the r/s.  :)o I just need to tell that part to shut up & sit down?  Is it just incorrect?  And setting aside what I want, what do I do about the fact that he has drawn this line, despite that the last time we discussed it, he wanted to go through time with me, ours was the most amazing love ever, he'd been so distraught while we were apart that he thought he'd never touch me again, etc.?

BTW in answer to Goldy's second post, I believe he was alone for the entire past year -- first time in his adult life.  I suspect our close "friendship" assisted in maintaining that.  He said he was trying to assemble a self that was not overwhelmed by a relationship.  Which of course was a more than good enough reason for his "friends only" rule -- it becomes harder for me to understand when/if he is actually seeing someone else.

He can pursue other women because you two are just friends, albeit very unusual and close friends. Also, a new woman is non- threatening. They arent that close yet, but the pursuit is likely satisfying. Once he is closer to her, the push pull will happen with her, too. She might quickly tire of that and move along.

He isn't choosing her over you. It's just that 'new' is inherintly superficial; there's no expectations cause it's too new. It's just the fun beginning part of a romance.

You will never be new and superficial ever again.

I can see this pattern going on forever, your own non sexual push-pull relationship with him and his periodic forays into courting new females... .for as long as you are willing to do this.

If you two are not a couple, I guess it's to be expected?

It's odd but do is his disorder, right?

This really comes down to what you want.

I guess I am running up against my own unresolved frustration and anger with him.  Why did he make the decision to just move on -- after telling me how sad he was at the demise of our great love affair, and how much he wanted to fix it, after telling me his therapist wanted him to dig in & work on his intimacy issues and figure out how to be alone, he just turned immediately to another woman?  And then, when we were back in touch a year later and he was so enthusiastic, and it was so sweet and good-seeming, and we were in no hurry to go anywhere in particular, why didn't he let that take its course, why did he bring a hatchet down out the blue and declare that we would not be more than friends?

That's one of those unanswerable unilateral statements, right -- if the other person tells you you're friends only, you're friends only.  You don't really get to argue with that.

But.  He then proceeds to go places with me emotionally that he seemingly does not go with girlfriends ... .and we had a wonderful physical relationship when we were together, according to him then and after ... .and we've vastly improved how we deal with each other and have achieved a real appreciation for and understanding of one another's nuances ... .and ... .

Why exactly aren't we going to at least try?

And a part of me is saying even asking that question is crazy, since he's shown no insight into his patterns of panicking at intimacy, and my original requirement for resuming a romantic r/s was that he acquire some insight about that.

I guess I am upset that he does not find it worthwhile to dig in and try with me.  That he has repeatedly chosen to look for "love" elsewhere and give all that excited, fervent attention to other women, while relying on me to be his primary reference point and confidante about all things other than romance (I don't discuss that with him).

I suppose folks will say "you're right, that's what's happening, you have to decide if you want that."  I guess I am wondering ... .is there nothing I can do about this?  Is there nothing I can do that would encourage him to be brave and try to do something he hasn't done before: love someone he knows well and who knows him well?

I don't know that there's anything you can do to encourage him, P&C.  If he has an untreated disorder and has shown that this is his pattern, this will continue to be his pattern for as long as he goes untreated.

As far as knowing each other well... .  I am a firm believer that we really don't know anybody until we live with them and even then there could be things going on that neither has a clue about.  Nobody really knows what goes on in someone else's head. 

I've thought that I've known exactly what was going on... .  It was my own feelings = facts mode, because I was way off base too many times to count.

Are you getting enough needs met in this relationship?  And could one of the allures be longing for more... .? 

Sometimes I wonder if we're really all that much different than our BPD counterparts... .

It's okay to want more from your guy.  If he doesn't or can't step up to the plate, then what?

You can try to encourage him to love someone he knows well... .you... .

But I can offer my own experience as a cautionary tale.

That's essentially what I've been doing in one way or another... .for ... .oh, 7 years now with my ex.

I think you know my story pretty well.

Here's the last installment.

My guy as you know announced 2 months ago that he had been pursuing and finally slept with another woman.

So we part ways for 2 months. NC, both agreed, for time being.

He showed up last weekend, just out of the blue, all apologetic, wanted to make things right with me, and asked me to marry him. To marry him! He was wanting to go get a ring, like right now! Problem is, he did this before, almost 4 years ago now. I already HAVE an engagement ring from the last go around of this kind.

He also admitted that he started up a relationship with this last "other woman" because she was better connected in the social community than me and has a membership to a very fancy country club. This is him bein honest. But it kind of feels like an abuser who is at least learning to be honest about his abusive behavior... .so, he is honest, but the behavior still pretty much sucks.

Oh... .and my guy did this while in therapy, also, with the expressed focus on him learning to be by himself, too. He seems worse than ever right now.

In the past years when I was frantic to save him, I'd give him books a articles targeted to whatever his healing or growth was at that time. This last weekend, he was using that in trying to get me to be with him, to ensure me that this time he is done hurting me ... .this time is different than all the other times. He was suggesting books we could read together and insisting we should get married.

You know what I felt?

Very sad.

This is just crazy. This man is just crazy. He is acting CRAZY.

So, be careful P&C. I think we often underestimate what it is we are dealing with.

P&c, Every question you ask in your post can be answered with:

"Because he is disordered."

It's possible you are still not really believing it.

You can ask him to step up and do more.

But I don't think there is a way you can ask him which will give him any better capacity to do it than he's showing you right now.

And you know that it isn't what you want. The tough question is whether it is close enough to what you want to be better than no r/s with him at all. As somebody 'round here once told me, being a grown up can be !#@$! HARD some times.

Take good care of yourself P&C.

 GK

Dear P and C 

I think you've had all the wise advice from the people who've walked similar paths. I don't really have anything very useful to say.

But I just wanted to send a big   and to suggest that when you're in a frame of mind that feels a bit knotted up and hard to work your way out of it's a good idea to do all the things that I know you know are a good idea already!

In other words to deliberately follow a daily programme of doing a variety of activities with a variety of people that will bring you a sense of achievement, pleasure and forwards movement. I personally find restorative yoga helpful - but it probably needs at least a week of doing twenty minutes daily to feel any kind of loosening of the emotional and physical muscles. I'm very bad myself at following daily routines of this kind - but I always notice how much clearer and stronger I feel when I do.

Sending warm   WWT.

P&C, do you ever wonder if the fact that he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child is a partial explanation? Is it possible that he has a continuing (if unconscious?) need to punish romantic partners for their interest in him? Could serial punishment of the same partner(s) be an even more rewarding pattern in some way? Could he get additional gratification in some way for having told you that you were "naïve" and yet seeing that you return again and again?

I can't help but feel that you are a target now of high, high value. MaybeSo's warning to be careful has become pretty critical, hasn't it?   

Interesting query. There can be serious issues at play even without the sexual abuse.

My ex as far as I know doesn't even have a history of sexual abuse. My belief, however, is that his mother betrayed him in some deeply humiliating manner (I know her, it happened) at a very young age and that the humiliation/shame dynamics went on for a long time, and in such a way that this man, I know in my heart, is deeply, deeply wounded, very untrusting and even full of rage and fear on some level regarding needing or loving a woman who has the power to hurt him like that again.  There is some mental illness in the family, depression etc., so he was likely not as resilient as perhaps another child may have been to his mother's oddness.  I believe he consciously or unconsciously is driven to have these hurtful push pull relationships with women because he is able to exact revenge, keep himself sealed- off from exposure and vulnerability, feel powerful over that which he fears the most, and to also keep himself invested in a dynamic that re-inacts over and over the same wounding dynamic that proves  his original betrayal happened and will continue to happen unless he protects himself this way.  How much testing of his bad, hurtful, odd behavior  before even the most loving, spiritual woman says "hey, enuff of this buddy, either knock it off or I'm out of here"... .thus providing him with yet more evidence through yet another betrayal to support his distorted belief system. That this hurts us, in some way, is satisfying for him, too. Maybe not in the most obvious way, but he keeps doing it over and over with full knowledge that it's painful for the women he encounters and gets involved with, but he is driven to do it again and again, anyway. It's like an obsession.   These guys test and test and test and test women, and they find really lovely gorgeous sweet women who have big hearts that are a bit broken who think this guys love is special because he is so special, and boy does that work to facilitate this illness of theirs... .how much will we put up with and still love them?... .are they testing us or still raging and testing their mothers or  whoever betrayed them?  It's healthy at some point to say... .here is the line, bud..  Knock it off if you want me in your life.  Step up to the plate if you want me in your life. Or don't.

That is healthy. They need to hear more of this, in my opinion. For everyone's sake.

This is sticky, deep, messed up stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if my guy never really gets this resolved in a way that makes him available for anything like a normal relationship.

He has already dropped off the radar with me, since asking me to marry him just last weekend.  In a way, it's a blessing. I think the most loving thing he could do for both of us right now is to leave me alone, and I think he knows that on some level.  I wouldn't buy into any of his stuff last weekend,  I was nice to him, but I was just like, "no, I'm not jumping on the crazy train with you.".  Haven't heard from him since, other than a note where he said I have a right to be pissed and I am wise to keep my boundaries.  

I hope these men do work through this eventually,  but I'm not holding my breath.

:'(

Please make sure you take good care of yourself, P&C, and don't underestimate your guy's situation.  You are not going to love him out of this disorder.  

Boy, does anyone in the therapeutic community have any idea whether such men would need counselors of a particular gender? As a layperson, I would probably guess they'd choose women therapists and then experience very mixed results. 

Yup. all female therapists, all the time.

for a long time, he saw two female therapists at the same time... .Two at time!  That's pretty unusual... .most therapists won't do that... .but he's very charming and persuasive... .ah ha... .boundaries being stretched even with the therapists.  That's how it works!

     

His r/s with his therapist(s) mirrors his r/s with all the other women in his life.

I told him last weekend I wouldn't even think of involving myself with him again unless I had access to his therapist.  His issues are ALL relationship based... .if he's really serious about getting better, he has at some point got to get the relationship into the therapy to some degree. Otherwise, this female counselor is just hearing his sad, sad stories from his one side... .and his whole problem is him seeing things only from his one sad side and eliciting sympathy... .from women. 

He pretty much choked on that suggestion, that I be able to talk with his T.  He was NOT into it.   He has an appt. with her today. 

It will be interesting if he even brings it up with her.

Apparently his goals in therapy is to learn to be alone. I'm sure he will feel ashamed even admitting to her that he pounced on the marriage thing with me this weekend. This is like falling off the wagon for him. He may not even tell her about it.

Hey PatientandClear,

I haven't talked to you lately, and I don't have much to say other than I'm thinking about you and your situation.  No easy answers.  Others have already said a lot of what I'm thinking as I'm reading through this thread.


This comment, however, really stood out to me.  I personally don't believe there is anything you can do to 'encourage him to love you'.  I don't believe he is capable of showing consistent love.  His illness prevents this, sadly.  And I do not believe that our love is enough to cure BPD.  Maybe love is enough, however, if it is a love of self where the pwBPD learns to first love themselves, but this will only happen with serious, long-term treatment. 

To me, the question has to be more along the lines of, what do I need to do to better love myself?  If you can answer that, the relationship questions, I believe, will answer themselves.  And you may continue in a relationship with him, or you may not.

Much peace to you,

Phoenix

Here's the image that I have in my mind.  He's standing in the pool, by the stairs, in three feet of water, wearing a life jacket.  You're standing by the rope that seperates the shallow end of the pool from the deep end and telling him it might be fun for him to at least take a few steps closer to you. 

The problem, I think, is not with your message. This part of it seems to be more about him, and what he wants and doesn't.  You've been very patient with him.  He's missing out by not diving in a little deeper with you - we all see it.

But, fundamentally, there isn't much you can do to change him or his mind.  He has to want to go deeper with you - and that may involve some hard and scary work on his part.  Unfortunately, his history is that the more you encourage him to take a deeper plunge, the quicker he heads out of the pool entirely, at least for a while.  Maybe someday he'll venture in deeper with you, but that's up to him.

So, your work may be in the area of radical acceptance.  Can you learn to be content splashing around in the shallow end with him, maybe forever.  Or do you need to dive a little deeper?  That's an important question you need to answer for yourself. 

Just about everyone on this board has had to come to grips with some very real limitations in our relationship.  You've come to grips with a lot of them yourself already.  Is it enough?

Wow, you guys.  Once again, I am really humbled by your insights, and caring.  There is so much wisdom here, and a safety line maybe I can follow out of my confusion about what I want, and why.

MaybeSo, thanks very much for sharing the most recent chapter of your story.  Wow. Both that he came to you like that, and that he has fallen off the radar since.  I so respect your clarity in the face of that -- that much as you might want to hear those words, not like that.  Yes, therapy without directly engaging the actual facts about their relationships seems destined to falter.  Like your guy, I believe mine made a commitment to either his therapist or himself to try to be alone, and I admire and want to support that.  It's when he nonetheless gets all infatuated with a new love story and tells himself that this is going to be different that I lose respect for what he's doing.  He's already wrecked one other heart since mine.  Similar to your guy's choice of his most recent fling due to her social status, I am pretty sure mine has now connected with someone in his (relatively) new professional pursuit, so it's a mirroring festival, and she can assist him in becoming his new self.  Like you say, falling off the wagon.

What conclusions does your guy draw about the demise of these other relationships?  :)o they fail because the other women are not you?  Or because no one he's met yet is The One?

I think a piece of this for me is that there is unhealed trauma from the beginning of this r/s and the subsequent betrayals (several distinct episodes of my retreating to what I thought was solid ground with him, only to find it giving way, too).  I still hold on to some idea that if somehow things can turn out well for us, that will undo the hurt and damage of his repeated abandonment of me.  It's a classic betrayal bond fallacy, I know.

I did have a little breakthrough tonight that maybe will help with that.  For the first time I made myself live through the incident that prompted him to break up with me through his eyes, and to remember how wonderful things had been with us in the week or so before.  I saw & accepted how much he must have been hurt, to feel it was the right thing to do to give up something that good.  He was so sad, for months, and called it tragic.  But he wouldn't try to fix it.  That makes the "betrayal" feel less like a betrayal, and more just like a train wreck.

I could do the friends thing complete with push-pull indefinitely, actually, if it were not for the cognitive dissonance, the feeling that someone I am this close to is supposed to be in bed next to me, at least sometimes, and able to say explicitly cherishing words, and to name our r/s as something other than "friends."  And that dissonance is underscored by memories of all of that happening, and how good it was.  The dissonance and the memories cause me to want to do something to rectify this state of affairs, you know?  Letting it be is hard, there's a continuing pressure to make everything line up, and right now, it so does not.

In the case of my guy, he seems to have entirely shut down his memories of our physically intimate past when we were openly in love.  He simply cannot talk about it, can hardly acknowledge it.  He never, ever, makes reference to the fact that we have this past.  I do, sometimes, because it is relevant, sometimes, and he acts like I stung him with a cattle prod.  When he has to respond or be rude, he is super stiff, says the minimum number of words possible, and gets out of the conversation instantly.

KateCat, yes, I think his childhood experience of sexual abuse, extreme emotional deprivation by his parents and physical torture at school from which his parents did not protect him, have created a steel trap in his mind in which no one who gets close can be trusted to take care of his feelings, to allow his feelings, or to respect his boundaries and not use him for their own needs.  Your ideas and MaybeSo's about the endlessly repeating pattern that confirms their expectations and validates their posture which is ultimately alone (ironically given their relationship-seeking) as the only safe stance, are so illuminating.  I just make a default assumption that everyone's internal mechanism is seeking happiness.  But perhaps his is not, at all -- it is seeking confirmation of expectations and self-protection.  Talk about sad.

All of your cautions to take very seriously what this really is, and not engage in wishful thinking, and not to imagine that I can love him out of or through his barriers to staying peacefully beside me ... .thank you for those.  They are very well taken & I will re-read them over and over.  MaybeSo, yes, I think I have not fully accepted that he is disordered.  I want healing & growth to take care of it organically I guess, and keep waiting for that to happen.

I can keep splashing in the shallow water so long as I keep my head straight about this.  I feel like I was about to make a serious error about what I want and would be open to.  MaybeSo, I will remember your answer to  your ex's most recent proposal & try to remember that there aren't shortcuts to them working their way through this, and they very well may not ever.

What is this serious error?  And are you content to splash around in the shallow water?

What does a really nice relationship look like to you?  Not with him, get the focus off of him for a sec.  To you, with anybody?  What are your requirements going into a relationship?  To stay in a relationship?  Sure there will negotiating times etc... .  We all have our absolutes though.  One of (many of) mine is they must love animals.  There are no ifs ands or buts about this.  I can walk away easily if someone doesn't like animals-- friendship, romantic, whatever... . 

Are you looking for a lover, a companion, a friend?  The whole package?  How often would you like to see this person?  Would you like to live with them?  Do you see yourself living alone?  What kind of activities interest you?  Is it important that your SO enjoys the same interests?  How about communication?  Is it important to be able to communicate your desires to your SO?  Do you think you're good at communicating your desires?  And the list goes on... .

P&C, I think I'd try to step away from his deep issues and focus on my own wants, needs and desires... .  And how to go about obtaining them.

When we get super clear ourselves about what we're looking for in this lifetime, it's a lot easier to recognize when someone else fits into our world or not.

Does this man fit into your world, or are you trying to fit into his?   

Why indeed.

I watched the Life of Pi last night.

I was thinking, hey... .being in a life boat with a lion that might eat you is a metaphor for a relationship with a pwBPD!

Of course, in the end, Pi and the lion were actually one and the same.

Hmmm. Uncomfortable.

The error was in allowing my longing for things to be different than they are to gather steam.  The correction is the one you all have offered: see this for what it REALLY, really is, at this point, even if that does not require closing off to what it could be if he wended his way down a particular path for a very long time with a lot of commitment.

About what I want ... .see, for me it doesn't really work like that.  I don't have a pre-organized menu that I am seeking to fulfill.  I have a happy family & work life.  Beyond that, I basically believe in seeing where life takes you & being willing to go anywhere that is healthy & good.  He is in my life & he is important.  I need to keep that healthy and good.  If someone else came along who offered other things that would make me happy, I'd be interested.  But I am not going to expend a lot of effort trying to make that come about.  To me it works better to see what comes, understand it, make the best decisions I can, and be open to what else comes.  Does that make sense?

I find that when we try to order up "I'd like a r/s where I see someone 5 days per week and they like college football and are between 5'10" and 6' and they will serenade me with a guitar every other week," that doesn't work.  This guy is in my life now.  He is important to me.  That's the issue I have to wrestle with now.  If someone else is in my life, I will try to make good decisions about that.  Does that make sense?

This situation doesn't make sense to me because you describe yourself as being wounded, again and again.  :'(

Yes, I have found various events with him wounding.  I am trying to get into a posture where it isn't wounding.  I have found just walking away from him isn't less wounding (if that's what the alternative would be).  Trying to organize my thoughts & feelings to accept what must be accepted, stop fighting reality, enjoy what there is to be enjoyed, make room for intimacy if that is a healthy thing to do ... .and greatly appreciating the guidance here on all those questions.

In case it's not explicitly clear, I'm not closed to other relationships.  I've dated or thought about dating several other men since he ended our romantic/sexual r/s.  However, they are not compelling to me in the way he is.  Some of that is healthy attraction & appreciation of what he really brings to my life, and openness to what may come in the future.  Some of it is the impulse to resolve my traumatic loss with him through something he is going to restore to me -- not so healthy.

I guess what I'm curious about is whether you'd still be "in it" if you found that there were other aspirants to a flexibly-defined position of "his person." (It seems you've already accepted a notion of a series of new, impermanent relationships with women on his part. And you seem to have knowledge of them and their disappointments. And I'm guessing that knowledge comes from him, unless you have a PI on his trail.)

He may have other wounding arrows in reserve. 

This,
Fair enough.  Let me ask you this.  Does your friendship with him prevent you from pursuing a deeper romantic relationship with someone else?  You refer to some of his other relationships and absences as "betrayals."  Friends don't betray each other when they date others.   

For me, a relationship with a pwBPD has a compelling factor that is very different from someone who is not disordered.  A big part of me is very drawn to this dynamic, and probably always will be.  I believe my mother has BPD, so go figure.

What is attractive to you about this dynamic, if you don't mind me asking?

Briefcase: No, I'm open to exploring a romantic relationship with someone else, though it is not my personal style to spend a lot of time looking for that.  His "betrayals" of me have mostly not involved his seeing other people.  First, I think he spent the last year, since we got back in touch, alone.  My current impression that he is seeing someone in his new city is the first deviation from that.  I am not finding the other woman per se to be a betrayal -- we have no agreement not to see others. It is more that we have been super close, very intimate, and then he stepped that back quite notably at the same time I saw some clues that he is/was seeing someone else.  That withdrawal of intimacy tends to feel like a betrayal, though I have come to understand it as push-pull that he may not be able to avoid.

When he dated his ex right after we'd agreed not to try again as romantic partners because he & his T thought he needed to learn to be alone ... .yes, that felt like a betrayal.  He'd told me we were so unique and special, I took a stance I thought was loving in stepping back & giving him this space, while still remaining in touch ... .and then he starts pursuing the ex-gf, when he had concealed his dating history with her & others from me during our r/s.  That hurt, and felt like a betrayal.  It wasn't consistent with the story he'd told me, based on which I had trusted him in various important ways.

KateCat: No PI involved in identifying the other woman/women!  And no, he didn't tell me. Just clues & my spidey senses, and his tendency in recent weeks to make odd, out of context references to a "friend."  It is as if he is trying to tell me without telling me.  In terms of how I'd deal with him having another "primary person" ... .here is where I try to follow Phoebe's approach of don't ask, don't tell.  I don't need to know what else he's doing as long as what he's doing with me is good, reciprocal, respectful & loving.  So I keep my eyes on my own paper & try to pay attention to that.  I don't think I could do that if we were sexually involved or declaring our love for each other.  Which is why letting my longing for us to resume a sexual/romantic r/s get out of control is a mistake.

Phoenix Rising: I don't find any of this particularly attractive.  I liked it better when it was a strong, healthy r/s -- I thought -- at the beginning. So much better.  However, he is who he is.  I don't think I'm staying because I like the hard parts of this.  I'm staying because I don't get the good parts without the hard parts, I care about him, I meant what I said when I said I loved him, I know him better now and in many ways like him more ... .and he is who he is.  We can't order up all the components of our lives as if from a buffet menu, right?  I got this and have to figure out the best thing to do with what it is.  Unfortunately, all the choices seem to range from hard to harder.

Hi P&C,

You know, I have followed your path and I think I finally understand:  plain and simple, you love him and want whatever he is capable of giving, right?

If I understand what you have said to the questions others asked:  It seems the only problem you have is your own hurts - because it sounds like you are accepting he is who he is, right?

If that is the case and I understand correctly - maybe we can help by focusing on healing your core wounds he seems to trigger  rather than his BPD push/pull traits? Since you do love him & accept who he is and what he seems capable of  - maybe the key is learning how to deal with your own emotions rather than focus on the BPD traits... .I dunno, maybe that might be a different approach.

Maybe there are some tools to self-soothe to make his pulling away not hurt so much?  

I think I finally get it - you love him and will take whatever form the relationship is because that is worth it to you.

Peace,

SB

Hm. Withdrawal of intimacy. I guess it's only appropriate that he stop being so intimate with you if he's trying to woo another woman at the same time.  I don't think he is going to get much traction with a new r/s if he is carrying on this intensely close and personal, almost couple-like relationship with you, right?  Not really fair.

I think what is bothering me in  my situation right now is this: I'm not seeing what I've been doing with my ex as intimacy anymore. Certainly not in the traditional, healthy sense.  Maybe I'm just feeling burnt-out on the whole thing right now (I am feeling that way)... .but, I've seen so many iterations of what I considered intimacy with him now... .that it's losing it's charm. Ah, I'm not sure if what my ex and I have had is intimacy and closeness... .or just short-lived, basic dating highs and lows, intimacy 'lite' if you will... .basically what you get when you are splashing around in the shallow end of the pool... .all the ups and downs you find in any tumultuous romance that is always on and off but never growing DEEPER.  It's called shallow for a reason, as in lacking depth.

As I grow to understand more and more about what 'intimacy' is meant to be between adults... .This seems to be what most people think of as intimacy;

It's about staying power.

It's about showing-up.

It's about acceptance and dedication.

It's about honesty and integrity.

It's about being there for each other through illnesses, good times, bad times.

It's about being able to express your deepest feelings and needs with on another other.

It's about  being there as each other's biggest support.

It's about supporting growth in one another.

It's about consistency in actions, despite feelings that will always ebb and flow.

It's about being able to make and keep important commitments to one another.

It's about these things, done over a long period of time that grows into what we would call an intimate relationship.

I'm not sure what we have with these men establishes or maintains intimacy.

When I'm with my ex and things are good, what I have with him that I have called intimacy (or at least it's been compelling) is:

Long talks about life and psychology and history and politics and philosophy.

Long talks about him and his stuff and his issues.  HE is probably the biggest subject of conversation now for 7 years.

That constant slight tension of unrequited love, constant craving, something to fixate on, a tortured love affair.

He has a way of being very charming and loving in his style of relating that makes me feel special... .in the moment.

We laugh and b.s. together, and we have a healthy sexual attraction, so you know, sex, and if not having sex, there's chemistry.

We can be goofy and playful together, we can be like kids playing together.

We may travel and explore different places together, we sip wine, we have nice dinners, we 'date',  and that's fun.

We get into deep conversations about his stuff.  This sometimes feels really intimate, but we've been having these discussions about him for 7 years now and they seem not to be really going anywhere... .it seems to stay the same.

I don't think what I have is intimacy. Maybe intimacy 'lite'.  Bottom line, he always leaves, so whatever we 'have' is always going to be interrupted... .and that in itself is antithetical to developing intimacy.  You know?

I think intimacy is a man or woman who is there for each other in a profound, authentic way for a long time.   We have something going on with these men... .but I'm not sure it's intimacy.  

Anyway, I think I'm just becoming bored and disenchanted with the monotony of the pattern. 

P&C

Have you told him you want more recently (very clearly)?  And would like another go at trying to have a romantic relationship?

Green Mango: Two months ago, after he accused me of wanting to be more than friends when I was trying to explore my feelings around his sudden decision to move across the country to a new city for no clear reason, when we had been very close ... .I wrote to him that "if I ask the hypothetical question whether, if you were in a different place [I meant emotionally, not geographically], I would want to resume a romantic/sexual relationship, the answer might be yes.  But that's a pointless exercise.  I don't want to be in an unsafe relationship with a non-existent person; I want to have the actual r/s we have, with the actual person you are."  Not sure whether you'll think that is clearly stated.  I honestly do not feel that I want to start up a romantic r/s with him no matter what -- I would, if he had some sense of how to handle bad feelings when they arise; but not if he is feeling bad about the idea.  He has told me explicitly twice in the past year that he wants to be friends only.  He has acted like my non-sexual partner a lot of that time, but he seems to prefer it being called "friends."

MaybeSo: I really, really hear your question about whether what goes on with these men is really intimacy.  What tugs at me is that in this year of friendship, we have actually spent more time on your first list than your second. We have made commitments to each other & kept them.  We have worked through painful, hard stuff and stayed "together."  There has been integrity (a lot of the time, not all the time, from him) and dedication, listening to & learning one another, being mutually supportive, helping each other grow, showing up.  His showing-up pattern has gaps when he is freaking out, but he has shown he will come back and his behavior around the gaps does not inflict greater harm (no raging, no hurtful statements, no violation of commitments, no cancelling of plans). I know exactly what you are saying about "deeper," and it feels like we have gone much deeper.  I think more so than he has done with any other woman he's ever dated, actually.

Maybe we have only been able to do that because we are friends, not crossing the line into an avowedly romantic partnership.  But it is the fact that we have entered that territory that makes me look at the possibility of such a partnership with more longing.  It is so hard to understand how people who obviously care about each other the way we do, who had a great physical r/s and a ton of mutual attraction, who have a ton in common, who love spending time together ... .wouldn't grow back into romantic partners.

But intimate or not, I totally get your point about how repeatedly touching on these connection points without following through in any sustained way gets old.  It is desensitizing, in a way.  Yes, it starts to burn you out. I've only been at this for a year as friends, and about 6 months the first time around.  Your 7 years is a really long time to have him build those hopes & then pull back and strand you.  I asked in your "effervescence" thread a few months back how you can keep looking fondly on someone who keeps abandoning.  I'm not sure of the answer for myself, either.

Seeking Balance: Thank you so much for your simple statement of what this is about for me.  Exactly as you said -- I love him, I accept who and how he is (or I'm trying -- MaybeSo noted maybe I have not fully accepted the deep truth of his disorder), I want what he can give as long as our dynamic is healthy & good, I am not trying to change him.

And I think you are exactly right that my trouble is my own hurts from how dramatically he failed to deliver what he promised initially, and how he didn't live up to his words when we parted about learning to stand on his own, without relying on relationships.  Instead he went and promptly got another woman, and yes, that hurt so much.  And the pulling away & choosing to pursue "love" with other women continue to rub against those only partially healed scars and I don't have good tools for soothing that hurt.  Also, I have to guard against false hope that he will change in ways I really have no reasons to think he can or will change.  And against my self-blame, when the tape in my head says he would change, if only I were more compelling or worthwhile (more "effervescent" ?)

Thanks you guys.  You are helping so much.

GM, still mulling over this question. The honest truth: because he has said unequivocally that he only wants to be friends, twice, since we reconnected, I have been super defensive and have been very emphatic that I don't want to ask him to do anything he can't or doesn't want to do, I don't want to try again unless he takes certain steps he hasn't chosen to take, and so on.  I wouldn't say I've expressed no possible interest but you'd have to wade through a lot of contingencies, requirements and hedging to get to that.  I have said that my feelings are what they were, but that they have deepened and changed in complicated ways as we have gone through the subsequent events since our initial breakup.

The awkward fact for me is that IF he wanted to take a chance and work with me on this, I have probably made it sound like I don't want to, either, not with him as he currently is.  I've only said those things when he's used the cudgel of "I only want to be friends" to ward me off for no apparent reason (the first time, after we'd been unusually close and it had been unusually sweet; the second time, when I asked him about what he was giving up if he moved from here -- "people who love you, including me."

Is this possibly partly why we are stuck?  Not saying I necessarily think we should get unstuck (see all of the above posts), but ... .are my hedging & defensiveness and pre-requisites creating an insurmountable barrier to him wanting to seriously try this?

What tools have you already tried to deal with your own pain and eventually the forgiveness to both him and yourself? 

PatientandClear,

I agree with SeekingBalance spoke about healing core wounds.  I think, that is what most, if not all, of us bring to these relationships, like it or not.  So it's really not about the pwBPD, as much energy and time we spend thinking about them.  They are who they are.  But what about us?  What does PatientandClear what?  How can she get what she wants? 


I understand this line of thinking.  I've tortured myself with similar thoughts.  But why are you not enough as you are?  YOU ARE ENOUGH!  My experience was I could never do and be ENOUGH to totally win her favor or please her.  It was impossible.  But I don't have to win anybody's favor, only my own.  This is where we start to get some clarity, I believe.  Maybe he can't fully accept you for who you are because he can't accept himself?  Accept ourselves first and we can get close to the radical acceptance that is talked about.

It is ok to want certain things from a close relationship, and even to have reasonable expectations.  A lot of it for me is asking myself what it is I want, and I'm still trying to figure that out.  I have an idea of what it might be.  I really like MaybeSo's list, but I cannot say that I have ever experienced true intimacy in a relationship, which is sad and frustrating. 

On a side note, I usually post on Leaving, but I have equal amounts of respect for those who stay and those who leave.  Several therapist have indicated that my mother has BPD (and I strongly believe she does now), so I am always 'staying' in a sense because I still relate to her on a fairly regular basis.

P&C, please let me know if this is right or wrong, but this is what I'm hearing from you about having more of a r/s with your guy:

1. You do long for a more committed, romantic, intimate relationship with him.

2. You believe that if you were to try, he would fail/let you down, so you are unwilling to actually do so.

3. He said unequivocally that he just wants to be friends

4. Despite his statements, he is very close and intimate with you (at least in the pull phases), in a way that doesn't match his statement of just being friends very well. (And you suspect he's pushing you away and getting involved with another woman now)

Does this summary seem correct?

Yes, Grey Kitty, you've summarized the confused mess I am in quite well ... .

Added factos in my thinking are that:

After he broke up with me, he spent months in therapy trying to figure out if he could try again w/me without hurting me again. His T helped him to see the thing he blamed me for and said caused our breakup, was normal behavior by me & a disproportionate reaction by him, caused by feeling threatened; that if we got back together then, he'd hurt me again, which he'd told the T he couldn't do; and that the violence of his emotional reaction signaled that he had work to do learning to be alone.  He described the months after the breakup as "an ordeal that has changed me permanently & profoundly."  He was so sad ... .all of that, combined with our emotional intimacy when he's around now, makes me feel like "I only want to be friends" is more complicated than it appears.

And it's true that I long for more & wish we could have it, it's less that I don't want to try it due to fear of hurt, than that I gathered he was working on a project of self-definition that is important & I wouldn't want my wants to interfere with that. I am patient! I meant what I told him long ago, that if he ever got to a place where he knew he wanted me & had a plan to deal w/his bad feelings, I would try again with him. So, I'd say I am assuming for now that he'd hurt me, but that if he gains some insight, I'd be more willing to risk it.

My goodness, no wonder you are so engaged in this.  :'(

 :'(

Along with that, he's made a couple of very terse comments since we got back in touch, during discussions of him pulling away, that suggest thaT~ down deep, he really feels it was me who left him (not that that would be unusual for someone wBPD). When he moved to the new city, I said something about how I would never have allowed myself to care so much about him if I'd known he would always leave (he'd just announced that he is an "itinerant soul". I wrote "I do not stitch together only to pull apart." He wrote back "we are on different planets." Which seems to be suggesting that he feels I broke us up or pulled us apart in some way, hurting him.

Which again makes the "friends only" rule seem more complex. Is he protecting himself? Me? Does it matter?

As far as the friendship goes, I don't really think it's possible to continue a long-term close r/s.  pwBPD are very intense and they will be directing it to someone, either you when they have no alternative or whoever they are trying to manipulate/conquer.  Consequently, if you're not pursuing other romantic interests to make it a clear boundary for your own (and their) reality that it's ONLY going to be "just friends", you'll probably be faced with many issues including the push/pull you mentioned.  It's part of their need to be close to something and your expectations may change during times of vulnerability if you haven't accepted moving on romantically.

The truth is can you ever completely rule it out, no, not if you fell in love with them.  But you need to accept for yourself that they need to show sustained progress and mental stability over several years to ever accept them again.  But you can't be putting that expectation on the friendship, and ABSOLUTELY can't be waiting, thinking, analyzing, for it to happen because it probably never will

One last thought, think about what happens if hypothetically one or both of you fall in love with someone else and get married.  The friendship shouldn't continue at that point because it'd say something is wrong with you or them... .so make that food for thought.  There is an end game to this and it's complete separation and detachment, unless you have kids.

P&C

Maybe he can be friends, in a boundary-less, quasi intimate, too much but not enough of a mate way and maybe its just not possible for you to be friends?  You know in a friends way, or his way.

It's okay if it isn't possible for you.  Or to painful.  Maybe its time to think about your boundaries and maybe adjusting them so you can have him as a friend but there's less intimacy.


I don't really know.  I know I get myself into trouble with folks like this if I'm not very clear.  It seems complicated.  What does seem important is what you need and what's best for you right now.

Hi GM.  You asked whether I'd made very clear to him, recently, that I would like more than a friendship.  Why were you asking -- because if I haven't made that clear, I may be playing into his sense of what is possible here?  That is sort of my nightmare idea -- that we are both taking a hard line on the friendship limit because we both have experienced abandonment (actual in my case, imagined in his, but for him, it was just as real as it was for me -- and then there was the 10 months of NC that I imposed to consider, which seems to have hurt him greatly, though he has never said more about it than a few gruff references to me disappearing) and we are both being very defensive/defended.

Several people on this thread have asked what I want.  What I want is contingent on what he can do in a way that is not harmful to either him or to me.  I have eyeballed that from the beginning as meaning that, if he had some insight into why his feelings go haywire when we get close, and some plan for what to do about it other than ending the r/s, I'd try again with him gladly.  I have no real evidence that he has such insight at this point.  So I would want a different kind of r/s with him "if."  And I am not waiting for "if" -- I am having the r/s that we can have, meantime.  Does that make sense?  It's not some generic thing I want and I am wondering if he can provide it.  I want the best that we can do.

But I don't know how to find out what that is, and I love him, and we don't seem to be able to speak of this without him feeling I have a hidden agenda to control him, and it hurts when he sets aside what is so special about us in favor of exploring what kind of connection he can build with another woman.  Other than that, it's all quite clear :)

I've followed your journey from the beginning and it is truly quite compelling.  The dynamic.


Did he end your sexual relationship or did you?  Sure he pulled away.  Was it you who said that you couldn't continue on sexually unless he figured out why he does this?  And then offered him friendship?

It hurts that he sets aside the specialness between you in favor of... ., yet you're explicitly clear about not being closed (meaning open) to other relationships.

P&C, this is what I mean about wondering if we're really that much different than our BPD guys.  How does what you're doing/feeling/open to, differ from your guy?

This is something I had to seriously consider and ask myself/answer to myself.  We're compelling to each other; I wonder why?

And then I "chose to stay" and not be afraid of him anymore.  Not wonder why he does what he does, but why I do what I do.  All that confusion and wonder about him was misplaced.  It has rested inside of me all along.

What are you learning about yourself?

   

Well, maybe you can help me figure that out actually.  I was so hurt that, to me, he did it all.  Maybe I am missing something there.  Seriously, can you guys see something I do not?  I've had this awful sense all along that we somehow managed to miss each other with defensive postures & are now stuck there.  But.  If this is really his choice (and he said it is! and he moved away!) I want to respect it, so it's really hard for me to figure this out with him.  Phoebe, you've talked about how you don't discuss your r/s status with your guy, you just engage in it.  We've been like that too.  It works, to a point, but it hasn't helped me address this confusion about whether we got stuck in this "no" posture when we both wanted "yes."

Here's what happened.  Sorry, it's long.

We took a wonderful 24 hours trip together to another city.  It was the closest I'd ever felt to another person. We made love, lay in each other's arms, read ... .then returned home.  Then I was submerged in work, and had larynitis, so we didn't see each other for a couple of days.  He reported having what I thought sounded like anxiety dreams: he was jumping off a waterfall, driving the wrong way up a highway.  When we got together, we were talking about how we could spend more time together -- and about how that would entail spending more time with my daughter.  He asked how many years she had left at her school.  I said 4, but suggested maybe we could move to be closer to him (we lived in a different town) after another year.  He seemed tense.  I asked why the anxiety dreams, and he said very tightly "it was really hard being away from you this week."

Then we picked my daughter up from a class she was in & went to lunch.  He was goofing with her, took a bite of her food.  She got upset (she liked him, and I think this felt like an attack & she was taken aback.  She was 5.)  She got tears in her eyes & went & stood in the corner.  I said "Jesus Christ," exasperated with her, though I fear he thought I was annoyed with him.  I went over, talked to her, explained he didn't mean to hurt her feelings, & carried her back to the table.  When we arrived, something had changed for him.  He said he was going to go, said goodbye to my kid politely, and left.  We'd had plans to meet up later that night.  I texted I was sorry about the incident and could we go to bed for an hour & talk intensely for an hour when I saw him that night?  he replied he was "still processing.  I love you, I know that.  Can we figure out later, later?"  This was a big change from all prior communication; I could tell something was very wrong.  I asked if we could meet & talk, & he agreed.  When I arrived, he explained how horribly this had affected him, in "word salad."  All about his awful childhood, how I take my kid out to eat, that never happened for him in his childhood, I indulge my kid beyond what people normally do.  At some point I thought he was talking about our class differences & I said we're not identical, there's this gap between us, but we can bridge that gap.  He said "I don't have the skills for that, but you do."  I said "I can't do 100%, I can only do 50%."  I asked if the problem was my kid's actions or mine; he said mine -- that I had gone to her and comforted her.  He asked if we could talk more tomorrow (meaning, not end the r/s right then); I said "of course."  Then I had to leave to pick up my daughter.  I kissed him on the side of the face and left -- he didn't come with me to walk to my car, which really surprised me.

When I got home, I texted asking if we could talk by phone later.  I wanted to reassure him that whatever his feelings were, we could deal with them.  But he refused to talk, texting back "if we talk tonight, I will only tell you that I am irreparably broken."  I replied saying "it's OK, sleep well, sweet dreams, we will manage whatever is going on & it will be OK."

The next morning he texted that I was "kindness itself," but that he'd talked to his adult kids (it was Father's Day) & reflected on parenting, & he couldn't see a healthy way forward for us.  It felt like I had ice water in my veins.  I called up & asked what he meant.  He seemed to be saying we were over (but he never actually said those words).  I said "do you still feel the way you said you felt for me? because if not, that's your choice -- this is all voluntary."  He said I shouldn't wonder about that, he felt the same.  "When it's just us together, things are perfect."  I said in that case, I was going to fight him about his decision (which I thought he was making -- he said "I'm just trying to protect all of our hearts" because I thought we could fix whatever was the problem.  I asked if we could get together later that day and he agreed.  However, when I dropped off my daughter with her dad & headed to see him, he wouldn't answer the phone or texts.  Eventually he texted he'd gone for a walk, would be back in an hour.  I texted "where and when are we meeting?"  He replied he didn't actually want to meet.  He'd write me the next day.

So I sat down & wrote a long email to him, saying I couldn't believe this was happening, that we could fix things, that we'd had no chance to resolve anything. It was very tender he'd and loving but it did assume he was ending things.  I thought he clearly was.  Though he hadn't said those words.

The next day he emailed, having received mine (he only gets email at the library, so hadn't seen mine the day before).  He wrote "this is a tragic end to an amazing love.  I don't know how I will deal with losing you.  It is simply awful."  And went on to explain that he didn't agree with my approach to parenting, that he hadn't understood what was going on with my daughter, that when we talked two days earlier, he'd understood that I was looking to make up to her for the horrible divorce she & I had gone through [not my approach at all, but that's what he'd heard], and he couldn't do that.  We went back and forth for days about it by email, me saying he'd misunderstood my parenting approach, we could talk about this, we could get past it, but was the issue really that he wasn't up for dealing with a little kid?; him saying yes, maybe that was it, he'd raised his kids, and didn't have the tools to do it again, especially given my approach to parenting, which would have killed us.  He explained he didn't want me to be walking on eggshells, afraid he'd leave if I didn't parent how he wanted.  One day, he said he was feeling so terrible about it -- could he think about it overnight & then write me the next day?  "Please."  I was filled with hope.  The next day though, he wrote and said he was in the same place.  He had to be brutally honest & say he wasn't up for dealing with my kid given how I parent and her issues post-divorce.  I was beyond devastated.

Finally I said he was right, if he wasn't in a place where he would dig in with me to address issues and disagreements like our approaches to parenting, he was correct that we shouldn't go any further down the road together. I said it was breaking my heart, tht I wished those weren't his feelings, but if they were, I understood how his decision could be a loving decision.  From that moment -- when I accepted his decision -- the tone shifted.  He seemed hurt somehow -- "thank you for your explanations, even though they further show a path away from an intimate r/s."  I couldn't figure out what he meant -- was he still undecided? -- but I wrote & said maybe we should stop arguing about it, he could stop explaining his decision to me and I'd stop telling him why I thought it was wrong.  He replied that it was "so hard not to answer [an earlier question from me about how I didn't understand, I thought he had already walked all the way down the path away from such a r/s], but yeah, this is not productive."

We then started writing about other things (work, politics) and carried on like that for six weeks, until he sent me a short poem, & I replied that I needed to end contact because being casually in touch with him was too hard.  I said I'd been devastated by him walking away from me in the way he had, for the reason he had, & I needed time to heal.

He replied that he had engaged in no recriminations (!) to that point, & would not now, but that the ordeal had changed him permanently & profoundly, and he hadn't understood why I'd been unwilling to talk.  (He'd never asked me to talk, and I had kept urging that I was sure we could work it out; he kept saying he was sure we couldn't.)  But he would accept my decision about no communication.  "Now, further into the sadness."

I called him because this made no sense and it felt like we were missing each other completely.  We talked.  He said "I always thought we'd talk."  We got together the next day -- talked about parenting & resolved those issues in about 20 mins.  Then he asked if I thought we should try again.  I said yes, but/and, that I would need him to figure out why he'd found it necessary to leave before, and how that could be avoided again, as "I can't go through this again."  He said he'd been in therapy to figure out if he'd been wrong about the kid stuff, maybe I could come with him to the therapist ... .

We spent three or four happy days talking as if we were getting back together.  Passionate, happy kissing, no sex.  Then I went away for three days to a place with no cell service & no email -- I place we'd planned to go together when we were together.  Before going, I sent an email I thought was affirming -- we were working toward repair, no one I'd rather do that with him.  He replied that this was a more sober email thann he'd been expecting, and "no matter what happens, you are the kindest, most caring person I've ever known, and I love spending time with you."  It sounded like he was imagining we wouldn't make it.  I called him and we talked -- I said I loved him, and he made a choking sound I'll never forget.  I asked if he was OK, and he said yes, that it was so incredible to hear that.  He asked how I could feel that simultaneously with giving him space to decide whether he wanted to do the work I'd asked him to, "without it all getting all balled up."

We texted we loved each other before I went out of cell service.  When I got back, everything had changed.  He wouldn't use the word "love" in texts & didn't want to talk till we met up the next day.  He was kind but distant by text.  That whole night I couldn't sleep for even a minute.  My whole body was in fight or flight mode.

Next day, he kissed me passionately for a long time, but then said he'd seen his therapist & she was "not impressed with us."  She got him to see that maybe he needed to learn to be alone -- for the first time.  He said "maybe I don't want to do this [relationships] any more."

He said his T said she'd never told a patient what to do, but was telling him not to plunge back into this r/s with me.  Maybe we could do "baby steps" -- get to know each other.  To me this sounded like I would wake up every day not knowing if we were together or not, so I said "I don't think I can do baby steps."  To him, that seemed to be the end of the discussion about getting back together.  We had dinner, he kissed me, we parted.  Next day I went on another short trip.  Sent an email saying what I would need if we resumed the r/s: affirming that we loved each other, a physical r/s, and working out some regular way to spend time together. Said I was willing to go to therapy with him, open to all logistical configurations, and that I loved him.  But then I had this horrible feeling he was going to reject that [here's where you're right Phoebe, I did act like someone with BPD] ... .I wrote again saying "upon reflection, you said you weren't sure if you wanted to do this [a r/s with anyone] anymore.  That's a Q that should be answered before we try again, right?"  And that I wanted to give him time to do the thinking I'd asked him to do.  That if after that, he wanted to be with me, and had insight into why he'd felt it necessary to leave before, and how it wouldn't happen again, I would try again with him.

He answered & said he would have written the same thing.  That he didn't know why he couldn't stop the inward spiral he seemed compelled to follow, "even in the face of the most amazing love I've known."  That "everything I've told you was true, and continues to be true."  That this was practically the definition of tragic.  That he wanted to stay in touch, but would let me decide about that.

(cont'd)


... .and that's how we broke up.  :)o you think (and it scares me so much to ask this question) that he felt I was the one who decided to end it?  The line about recriminations certainly always felt to me as though he felt I had somehow left him rather than the other way around.

What happened next ... .we stayed in touch by email & a few times in person, when we had a great time as ever, but -- no touching.  Then one morning he sent me a photo album to look at via a web service.  I opened it, and there were comments from his ex-gf, making clear they had also been getting together and having the same meaningful conversations in person we'd been having about his photography (and also, that he'd sent the album to her for comments before sending it to me).  I was stung -- I thought we were so special & he was going to work on being alone, and here it looked like he was courting her.  She made comments to a mutual friend about exciting developments with him.  I sent a short note asking for NC, saying when I saw him, it was too hard not to wish that we could be lovers/partners, and I needed to say goodbye for now.  He replied accepting this (too easily I felt) and saying he'd hope to connect with the "most loving person I've ever know" somewhere down the road.

I should say my reaction to these photo comments was amplified by having learned that, contrary to his portrait to me of his dating history (that he'd essentially been alone for years waiting for me to come along), he had a long history of serial, intense, short affairs with women to whom he'd profess deep love, and then he'd abruptly find something wrong and end things.  Including with at least three other women in my office.  A mutual friend who knew all of us told me the day after the initial breakup (or what I thought was a breakup), when I was recounting all the wonderful things he'd told me about how special we were, "I think those words have been said before" (including to the woman making photo comments). So I had reason to be queasy apart from just what happened between us that I knew with my own senses.

I kept NC for 10 months.  At the beginning he sent a text saying thank you for some things I had done ... .I didn't answer (awful).

He dated the ex-gf, who works in my office.  It about destroyed me, and felt like a huge betrayal -- like he just switched women, rather than trying to dig into the issues that had caused him to leave me so suddenly.  I believe he talked marriage and kids with her.  :)uring that period he wrote me once (before I knew for sure they were dating).  I replied I still needed NC because I still loved him deeply and, if he couldn't be my partner, I needed to find a way to deal with that.  That I would be in touch if I could manage being just his friend.  They split.  We got back in contact.  It was lovely.  On the heels of a fantastic day together, he fell virtually silent.  A few weeks later, he announced very brusquely by email "I am very happy to be your friend, not a friend maybe leading to something else.  That is the reason for the distance lately."  I reiterated I had offered a friendship, not anything more (a month later in another email I said my feelings for him were the same as they'd been before, but I hadn't heard anything from him to suggest that we could be together again), and asked what prompted this sudden declaration.

He replied "you put me in a tough spot P&C.  That tough spot dictates that I had to clarify the nature of our r/s.  Having done so, can we go back to what we were doing?"  I asked for clarification ... .how did I put him in a tough spot? was he seeing someone else? if so, I imagined we could deal with it ... .but what had caused this?  he never answered ... .claimed the email in which he answered got stuck in his drafts folder.  Never sent it to me, never explained.  I am clear from other friends that in fact he was not seeing anyone the whole first year in which we reconnected as friends.

And that takes us into the story I've written about a lot on Staying ... .lots of intimacy under the "friends" rubric, me not understanding why he doesn't want more, him moving away suddenly, etc.

I have spent two years replaying this all in my head, feeling like there was a way not to have this huge loss occur, which it felt like neither of us wanted.  Phoebe, your question makes me terrified that there was something I did here that told him I didn't want him, was rejecting him, was ending things ... .

While I am open to dating others, I haven't done so seriously, & I never talk to him about it.  I want him.  

Thanks for reading this book.  I feel like my heart is breaking all over again.  Phoebe, you say "I chose to stay and not be afraid of him anymore."  A whole lot of my actions have been driven by fear of him (and probably, many of his have been driven by fear of me).  I thought I was being open, communicating how much I wanted to be with him, but maybe I was so guarded that did not come through clearly, and he heard mostly that I agreed we shouldn't do this.  I was trying to respect his choice, trying not to get myself hurt by ignoring that he was saying he wanted to end things, trying to make room for us to figure things out in a healthy way ... .but writing this story, I can see all these points where he may have felt I was taking the decision out of his hands.

What on earth can I do about it now?  We are so entrenched in our friends posture, and he's said it twice in the past year.

P&C,

these relationships are very compelling. There are about a million posts on staying, undecided and leaving boards that give evidence to hundreds, thousands of smart, capable people who find themselves doing things or tolerating relationship dynamics they never imagined they would sign onto prior to meeting their pwBPD.

One of things that being on this board helps me to see, is that my relationship is really not that special. That's not to say me and my guy have not had special times, or that there are no special qualities about us together when we are together.

But. The dynamic is not really unique or special.

The constant PULL to do things we wouldn't normally do... .and the cognizant disodence when we find ourselves doing odd things for THIS SPECIAL person, is standard in a BPD relationship. And that's because there is something about these r/s's that is very compelling.

These r/s will trigger our own abandonment fears. There is no getting around it. At this point, I'm thankful that I grieved and hurt so bad in the past, because in a sense I faced my own worst fears and survived. I'm no longer as fearful as I was before meeting this man, and that is a good thing. That is the gift these r/s offer.

There is a thread I posted on PI recently, a paper advertising a continuing Ed course for clinical professionals. It specifically is targeting the usual and common boundary violations that therapists fall into when working with this population. The pull to move outside of what you would personally or professionally do NORMALLY is well documented with this disorder.

You will not outsmart this disorder.

Part of being as healthy as you can if you are interacting with this disorder, is to hold your boundaries with these folks who have these disorders. Be YOU!  The pull and seduction that something special is happening that rationalizes boundary violations and a blurring of self is standard in these relationships.

If that is happening, the cure is not to further analyze the pwBPD but to look within. This about YOU!

When you write that what you want is contingent on what he can give, I get worried.

I get worried when the limits of a disorder is running the show.

I have my ex a MUCH harder time, and still do, than you do. I don't always feel good about it, I have a lot of my own worries and anxieties about my part, and I certainly don't claim to have this all figured out.

But, you are going to feel uncomfortable and hurt sometimes in any relationship, And it's u avoidable IMHO w/ a BPD r/s.

You are safe about no sex, too painful with the push-pull. Well, the push-pull hurts anyway.

Sex may trigger more push pull but if what you feel is romantic sexual love than its more honest to express it and deal with what is real than hide from it behind a friendship that isn't really just a friendship anyway.

You are so careful to not speak up about what you want or need with him. What if it triggers him this way or that? So you are very careful lest you trigger him.

But even with all the safe tippy toeing around, it's still painful! It just is.

I don't know. I'm much more of a "pull the sheet of the corpse" person.

In my experience, it doesn't chase off my guy, at least not permanently. Sometimes I wish it had.

I think he respects that I speak-up about my needs.  He can't often provide what I need, so I have to get some needs elsewhere, but if something is important to me my guy hears about it.

I think it's part of being honest with him. It is part of maintaining my own sense of self and my own boundaries. This is normal. My guy needs more normal, not more "special". "Special" is a defense mechanism that helped get himself into this disordered thinking in the first place.

Can't tell if you slogged through my whole long story in response to Phoebe's question about who actually ended the r/s, MaybeSo, but maybe your point about putting it out there would be the same after reading it.

I think I would have done that by now EXCEPT that he has, a couple of times, been so explicit about asking whether I have a "hidden agenda," and saying that he wonders if I respect his choice (about just friends) and whether I am waiting for him to change his mind.  Playing right into that with "well, actually, yes, I want more, more than you say you're willing to do," has seemed bad.  I've just said I would want more if he were in a different place.  Meanwhile, I value the friendship.  I do.  I don't want him to think the friendship is just a means to an end.  If this is the most he wants to do with me, it's worthwhile to me.  Re-raising the question now feels like it flies in the face of his very clear communication about his own boundaries.  Esp to a child sex abuse survivor, the last thing I want to do is act like I don't want him unless we can have sex, or that I want to continually push his chosen limits.  Each time it feels like we might grow past the limit, he seems to find some reason to re-assert it.

The heartbreaking thing for me is Phoebe's question of whether that started happening because I was so standoffish after he first expressed great distress.  I THOUGHT he was really leaving me and I was just devastated.  I knew nothing of BPD.  Looking back, I see that there were probably many places where if I had been more reassuring & less absolute ("well, I accept that you've ended it, even though it's super sad", this might have gone a different way.  Maybe that's why he's drawn his line now ... .his memories of wanting more with me are interlaced with so much pain.  I don't want us to lose each other to a reciprocal defensiveness, and it feels like maybe that's what happened.  But I don't know how to unlock that now except to love him from here & wait & see if he ever raises the issue again.  Is there some other way that is respectful of his boundaries and doesn't set me up for the mother of all rejections?

P&C, do you think you've really absorbed this knowledge?

um, I think that there's no way to not feel hurt sometimes in a real r/s.  i'm not sure it has to be the mother of all rejections... .but, you know, when you put yourself out there and are intimate we are vulnerable and we sometimes get hurt.  I don't know how to get around that... .though I guess you are working hard to avoid that very thing.  the price you pay, as I see it,  is you have to be very careful and very tiptoey and there are  going to be elephants in the room that no one dares point to and talk about.  To me, that just sucks... .but that's me.

I kind of jumped-in and just got really hurt and really beat up for a while but I survived... .and now it doesn't scare me that much anymore... .so I kind of took a different approach.

What are his boundaries? What are yours?

Boundaries are about what we value.

What does he value?

Do you know?

Is his boundary that he will maintain a r/s you but it can never again be romantic or sexual?

Telling him this doesn't work for you is not 'not respecting' his boundaries, it's simply putting your own values on the table too... .not just his.  Generally both people get to be heard and respected in a r/s.

But if your position is, you can't put your own values/needs on the table for fear of upsetting or losing him, and that you will do just about anything just to have this special guy in your life no matter what and never frighten him off and never do anything that will ever feel scary to either one of you... .

well, then, that is what you value the most,  and that is what you get.  Right?

Are you sure you are just not willing to hear something you don't want to hear? 

Yes.  That knowledge is why I drew my careful boundaries way back when, about how I'd try again with him if he would simultaneously work on figuring out his intimacy issues.  And ... .so far as I know, he hasn't, not in a structured way.  He has worked on being alone -- not, I think, with support from a T.  But I don't think he sees any connection between the bad feelings that sprung up for him when he seemed to be ending our r/s, and his fear of intimacy/loss/hurt/abuse/abandonment.

I was heavily guided by what I learned of him from others.  So much so that I never talked it through with him in any detail.  I just stood aside & watched what he was going to do.  And what he did was seek out his ex.  Whence, NC, and his feeling that I disappeared on him, and then our wonderful, sweet friendship in which We Never Ever Ever Contemplate Getting Back Together.

It just feels like there was some less binary, black and white way to go here.  I've been right next to him this whole past year, he could have reached for me, true, but has my defended posturing made him feel that I will reject or leave him and therefore it is not a risk he will take?  (Phoebe's question, I think.)  Are we both so defended we have prevented ourselves from getting started?

I don't underestimate the challenges if we were to cross that line again.  I get that he hasn't shown tremendous insight into his dynamics.  I however know a lot more than I did then.  I am much better able to deal with his behaviors. I am inclined to try, if he would -- if he would take me up on my original offer, to examine why he feels the need to catastrophically withdraw and end things when he experiences a temporary bad feeling.  :)espite all of your valid points about how serious the impact of BPD on any r/s is going to be.

But at this point, it feels like somehow it would be disrespectful or invasive of me to inquire about opening that door again.  Should I take him at his word that he no longer is open to this?  Or is there some core reassurance I could do that might allow him to feel differently about what is desirable and possible for us?

He's told me (he wants to be friends, not friends leading to something else).  I've decided that it is still worth it to me to be in this friendship.  That if he shifts how he feels, he can tell me.  That's the posture I've been in for the past year.  The "friendship" is intense and intimate in ways that suggest to me there is much more there between us.  I don't know WHY he is saying friends only because he went to great lengths not to answer my question about that a year ago.  Meanwhile, we've grown a lot & gotten much closer.

He has explicitly challenged me, when I asked why he was moving away from people including me who love him, about whether I was respecting his choice about friends only.  So me bringing this up again wouldn't be just taking the chance of hearing something I don't want to hear -- it would be sort of pressing him on something he's asked me explicitly to respect.

And yet, I have this persistent regret and sadness about how it ended up, and Phoebe's question about whether it was actually me who ended our sexual/romantic r/s, he was just freaking out, but it was me who brought the ax down, albeit in a framework of "accepting his decision" ... .that terrifies me.  What if his whole reaction since has been in order to protect himself from the hurt we both went through then?

If it were true that I only want to be close to him if I can have sex with him & be acknowledged as his gf, I would say so.  But that isn't the case.  Like Seeking Balance said above, I do radically accept him, where he is, what he feels.  I want to be in relationship to him on the terms he can offer (not any possible terms, but he is respectful, consistent in his weird episodic way, warm, committed to this, willing to grow with me ... .).  The best way I can state my position and the reason for my discomfort is that (i) I only want what he can offer without damage to who he is and what he needs; (ii) I am scared that his behavior in relationships will be chaotic, but I am willing to try to deal with that; and (iii) I am worried that the reason he has drawn the "friends" line is that he didn't think we could manage to make it through his chaotic feelings and therefore we faced additional hurt if we tried again.  But I do think we could make it through his chaotic feelings.  But I have never told him that.

Sigh.  My current posture is that I am his friend, and I am waiting and listening in case he gets to a point of choosing what we have as what he wants in the "love" department.  I am respecting his boundaries and committed to making this friendship strong, healthy and good.  I am making no progress dealing with my regret and my sense that we didn't need to end up in this place, that this could have gone another way if I'd been less rigid in my response to his emotional collapses.

You can be honest and say that you would like more.  You can ask him if he's open to more.  He sounds pretty intuitive and already knows that you do indeed want more.  What is 'more' exactly?  You will have to be ready to hear what he has to say.  Accept what he has to say.  And go from there... .

The reason I don't ask 'what we are' is because I know what we are!  I don't need a FB status saying that we're in a relationship lol  We are!  My needs are being met.  I'm not longing for more or worried.  I'm not afraid to speak up to address an issue.  I look at it as my issue that I'm having, not his issue that he better do something about.

How many couples do you really know who talk deeply about their relationship status on a regular basis? How many guys are into that sort of thing?  I don't know any.  Well, one actually and he's exhausting to be around! lol

I don't really know what else to say, P&C.  I cannot speak for your guy, or mine!  All I can do is what feels right to me... .Speak My Truth.

I think the only way to know is to ask him.  To inquire about his feelings, ask about his boundaries, and state yours doesn't seem like a boundary violation to me.    That is just part of being in an intimate r/s, whether it's platonic or romantic.  Without communication, I fail to see intimacy or growth.

However, can there be intimacy or growth right now?  :)o you think that while he's pursuing another r/s, he'd be interested in stepping up his efforts with you and trying to examine how your r/s ended?  I know in my case w/my BPDxbf, the answer was no, even if he didn't articulate the word, "No."  His actions are showing me his answer is, No."  He obviously prefers to pursue someone new that he's "excited about."  Just like your guy did in the past and appears to be doing again.  I still think it was healthy to speak my truth, and the conversation we had was illuminating, even if the truth hurts.  At least I know.

One of the reasons I haven't spoken my truth or asked burning questions I've had in the past is the fear of rejection that you and MaybeSo discussed, or there was something I knew was true that I wasn't ready to hear yet.  There is no way to avoid uncertainty in any r/s, and I know it can feel scary to risk rejection.  However, I've come to regret it every time I've allowed myself to lose my voice in a r/s.  When I've been rejected, at least I've received the information I needed and was able to make decisions based in the reality of the situation.

Also, I've come to realize there is nothing I can do to allow my BPDxbf to feel differently.  They are the ones that have to "allow" themselves to risk trusting someone.  It's not really about something we did or didn't do correctly.  It's about their disorder.  My ex repeatedly expressed mistrust of me.  If he can't trust me, and your ex can't trust you, I can't see how they will be able to trust other women, either.

Sorry, there was a lot written since last night - did you answer this somewhere that I missed?



Overall, I know you are hurt by him, but he seems pretty consistent with his push/pull when he may feel you get too close... .since this hurts you - maybe we should ALL focus on you and how you can either:

1. reframe so it doesn't poke that core wound.  This would look like using your own self-soothing tools.

2. work on boundaries of your own not to get too close

Steph is the most successful relationship that I have read on here and if you read all of her stuff, she will tell you that until she focused on HER - the relationship would have not been possible, there is a point where BPD is not the main problem any longer and that may be the case here... .your core hurt seems to be causing you the most problems right now.  His BPD push/pull trait although hurts, does not seem as extreme as perhaps some other BPD actions when triggered actually.  Not in any way to minimize your pain - thinking maybe we should focus on your pain since the facts of BPD don't really change much.

Steph's threads are insightful, and she did go into therapy to address her own issues with codependency after her H had done some significant DBT.  I think he had been the identified patient for so long, that when he started getting better her cd stuff started to be more apparent and she was brave enough to turn the focus of attention onto her own behaviors and her own healing. She is clear that she and her husband wouldn't have the success they did if she had clung to old patterns.

One big difference with Stephs success story from mine ( and from P&Cs to a degree) is that other women, cheating, overlapping of relationships with others, needing a lot of attention from others, breaking up and immediately hooking up with others, or anything having to do with fidelity or commitment,, was never an issue with her husband. She has also been clear with me that had that been an issue she would not have tolerated it. It was just never an issue for him and not part of his symptoms. Also, no addictions or other mental health issues

complicated the treatment picture.

If my guy could stop the addiction to finding "the next new one" I seriously think we would be together right now, with huge improvements already made by both of us on our own respective issues. But, no matter how much better we get along now as compared to earlier days, based on lots of therapy and soul searching... .my guy STILL gets caught up in this quest

to find the next big thing.  And so we aren't together.

None of these differences (or ultimate outcome of the relationship) negates the importance and value of focusing on ourselves and our own weak areas that need strengthening, our own fears, codependent habits, stuck places. This is where we get the most benefit from what are undeniably very challenging relationships.

Hi all.  I want to half apologize & half report on the strangest phenomenon that played itself out right here on this thread.  I am writing about it as a cautionary tale that very much buttresses the points made by various posters (MaybeSo, Kate Cat, others) at the top of the thread about "be very very careful" and "don't underestimate BPD" ... .

I was finding this threat very strengthening & illuminating.  Then I tipped into a PTSD spiral of being yanked back in time and was literally trying to re-do events from two years ago, to make this turn out differently.  What caused it?  Poor Phoebe's innocent, and enlightening, comment about how sometimes in our defendedness, due to our own abandonment trauma from these relationships and/or earlier in our lives, we close down to our pwBPD, and may push them away, not just vice versa.  Perfectly reasonable point.

If you see that point in the thread, I took that and spun out completely.  I was, seriously, back in time reliving our breakup hour by hour, not looking for lessons about what to do now, but trying to figure out how I could make it turn out differently back then.  I have several PTSD symptoms and have known for a while that the endless ticker tape in my mind, the panic attacks & looking for a way to avoid the traumatic event, is one of them (another is that when I think of my ex or our r/s at night, I instantly lose consciousness.  It's like my body puts me into an induced coma to protect me from things that are too damaging).  But this thing today was the most extreme version I've seen.  I don't even have the heart to go back & read all that I wrote, but I'm sure you can see the almost manic flavor -- asking you guys to show me where it happened, that thing I could do differently that would make all this not have happened, that would put me back on a road where I wouldn't be so awfully hurt.

Setting aside what I'm going to do with my ex going forward, I am going to take more seriously that I am suffering from PTSD symptoms and try to get a therapist to take that seriously.  I went to a trauma specialist already but my impression is she is half in love with my ex from my stories, and sees him as the real trauma victim (which of course he is).  I wasn't raped and didn't witness war atrocities, and I think she has a hard time processing the way this guy loved me and left me as a genuine trauma.  (Me too.)

So, anyway.  There is much in this thread from other posters that is super insightful.  I hope anyone reading will screen the last several posts from me through the lens of being a panicked reaction to the idea that there might actually be something I could still do to re-write the story.  Which in a way is what I think I am doing in this continuing r/s.  I am still trying to get the story to come out right.  In addition to trying to be a good friend and to make good on my genuine love for this person.

Thanks for all of your patience with me.

P&C, what an awesome realization!  And another example of why I wonder how different we are from people with BPD.  It was a :light: moment when I consciously realized what I was doing, taking notice of my reactions and the reasons behind them.  By focusing on him, I was keeping myself stuck.  I am wounded too, profoundly, but healing! :)

People with BPD might have glimpses of this in themselves; from my understanding, the disorder denies them the ability to really dig into it though, to "fix" it.  It's not my place to do the digging and fixing for them, I can't anyway.  It's my place to dig into my own stuff and protect myself from further harm, which can be difficult enough... . I consider being stuck in the past further harm.

We cannot rewrite history.  We can learn from it and pave the way for a brighter future though!

As Phoebe says that's a really impressive realisation.  I think your plan is an excellent one.

At the risk of being really tedious I'd like to mention restorative yoga again. Because I think it could be a useful tool to help with the PTSD.

When I can muster the discipline to do it daily I find that it assists in  re-balancing my body's mental, physical and emotional functions. I believe it's got an important part to play in the long term processing of stored and accumulated stress.

And it's important that it's the 'restorative' brand of yoga - very slow, very precise and specifically designed to promote the health and happiness of your nervous system. Big cities ought to have classes/teachers.

Sending warm   WWT.

P&C, thank you for sharing so candidly this part of your healing process.  You are very courageous, and you are in good company here.  Many of us have struggled with PTSD, as you know.  You are helping shed light on some of my own places that need attention, and it's become apparent that I too, need to return to treatment for my PTSD symptoms.

Restorative yoga is a wonderful way to help sooth the nervous system... .really, the entire body, mind and spirit.

So is Trauma Touch Therapy.  It's very gentle and helps heal what is going on through the body, and since trauma is stored in the body, addressing the body is a very necessary part of healing.  TTT is an effective way to do this.  So is Healing Touch, but I don't have personal experience with that.

This makes perfect sense P&C and yes, there is relational trauma and I felt very traumatized for about 2 years with my guys behavior. I would spend hours reliving things that happened and would just shake.

Further, it triggered trauma from childhood, and this is where repetition compulsion comes in ... .my father abandonded us when I was 5, but not permanently, for the remainder of my life he would come and go, come and go... .a visitor that I loved and wished would stay. Just like my pwBPD. I wanted to get the original trauma fixed by making this similar r/s work. This is part of why this man is so compelling to me.

The good news is we can heal from trauma and get better.

I agree with posters commenting on body work; trauma resides in the body, a good therapist can be helpful with talk therapy, too, but I think body work can move things along.

Thank you for sharing with us, P&C, and I don't think an apology is necessary.  That is great insight.  I'm sorry that you are suffering.  Please be gentle with yourself.  A lot of people care about you. 

I, too, feel like I may have some PTSD symptoms.  I'm seeing a therapist but we have not discussed that.  I do feel traumatized by the relationship with my ex.  Like you and others, I have abandonment trauma.  My dad left when I was 7 and I've never had a strong father figure in my life.  I don't think it's normal the amount of time I've spent ruminating and obsessing about what happened, what if, etc.  I do feel a bit better, though, and you will too.

Something that helps me now is consciously think, 'I'm shifting my gaze'.  And I then decide to focus on something different.  For instance, I might look at a painting on the wall and see if I can recognize the colors of the rainbow.

I agree with Phoebe that many of us have similarities with what our pwBPD have.  I dissociate at times, for instance.  Hang in there.

Wise choice - this takes courage and strength to get to this point... .you have shown both.   |iiii

Peace,

SB

Good work, P&C.

I think a therapist would take this experience you've had very seriously. Perhaps, judging by the number of posters here who've had similar dramatic experiences, it could be the basis of a "syndrome," even.  *)

Is it so very different than "Stockholm Syndrome," perhaps experienced in chronological reverse? As I lazily recollect it, some women tellers in Stockholm were held for roughly a week in a bank vault by bank robbers. The initial act of "terror" by the hostage-takers then morphed into repeated acts of "kindness," which so subjugated the women psychologically that they defended the men for days, weeks, months, years after. I believe at least one even married one of the hostage-takers after he completed his prison term.

You experienced initial acts of great kindness/reciprocity/identification, followed by abrupt and bizarre acts of psychological terror. (The opening salvo regarding you and your daughter is a telling example. Especially since you subsequently heard that confounding break-ups with quick soul mates was a pattern of your guy.)

It's not too likely that the Stockholm women were an unusually mentally unhealthy lot, is it? Or that you and other women here who've come to accept and endure things you probably thought you would not, are especially sick puppies either.

I personally have never experienced anything quite like what you've described. On the part of any human being. It's got to be a sort of "limit experience" in the human realm. Crazy as any war, and maybe crazier, as you can't know who or what your enemy is.

(If you are ever looking for ways to exercise your formidable writing talents in a journalistic format, exploring this particular type of trauma bond might be an interesting project. I mean like, way later in time, when all this is far in the rear-view mirror.)

 |iiii P&C I just want to say that I'm very glad to hear of your progress, and add simply: Helping you find something like your need to work through PTSD is exactly why I'm posting here on the PI board. No apology required. 

I hope you are able to find a T who helps you work through this, or get your T on track with it.

Thanks so much for all the kind words & warmth, you guys.

I am not doing very well.  I think it is coming to terms with a reoccurring pattern that I had managed not to discern until now: he breaks everything we start to build.  A romantic, sexual relationship.  Then, a friendship while he worked on being alone (because he didn't do that).  Then, our initial reconnection as friends (by hammering me out of the blue with distancing and a pronouncement about how he only wanted to be friends -- a completely unnecessary (to me) repeat of his earlier rejection of me).  Then, our growing closeness as "friends" (when he suddenly up & moved).  Then, my effort to extend my trust in our r/s past his move (when he stopped communicating with me for 10 weeks when I gently raised the question of why he was ditching his entire existing life so impulsively).  Now, our increasingly intimate r/s after making up after that rift, by seemingly shifting his attention to someone else as a primary reference point.

I keep telling you guys I am practicing radical acceptance because I have scrambled onto new ground with this guy and it is worth it to me to be on that ground.  But the piece that is doing me a lot of damage is that no matter was ground we are on, it crumbles.  All that I know for sure I can expect from him is that he will leave -- leave whatever we are doing.

It is super painful.  As I wrote above, I am clear I need to explore my own traumatic injuries in this r/s no matter what our future holds in connection with one another.

As to him, and us, though: I don't know how I'd say to him, as Maybe So suggested, "step up to the plate if you want to be in my life."  What even is the plate?  You know?  "Be consistent?"  "Stop changing?"  "Find a way to take care of and continuously prioritize this thing with me if you want to keep it?"

As far as I can tell, if I am brutally honest, he wants me now as a security blanket.  I keep him warm & from feeling alone when there is nothing else compelling going on.  AND he has decided I am too potentially hurtful or problematic as a real partner, so no matter how good our thing is, he is not going there.  That's a hard cocktail to accept.

A member who occasionally posts on one of the other boards, Conundrum, has written in the past few months a few posts about how we go wrong when we attempt to have a "possessory interest" in someone wBPD.  This really rings true to me.  You can love them but you have to set them free.  Utterly free.  Not free in order to earn their uncompromised loyalty, which may have been the trap Maybe So & I both recently fell into ... .just, free.  Knowing we will not be their only significant points of reference.

That sounds like the most loving & healthy orientation toward someone with BPD, honestly.  But I'm feeling like that approach is playing into a trauma loop for me.  It resonates with a lot of "less than" feelings and betrayal feelings because he does periodically create the impression that we are so special, and I start to feel like surely he won't break this, he'll be more careful  ... .and like Maybe So said at the top of this thread, that is really me thinking maybe he doesn't have an attachment disorder.

Not at all sure where I can or should go from here, with him, as I "stay," which I am still committed to doing in some fashion.  He is just being him -- I think it would be a big deal if I were to re-abandon him, and I don't see that he deserves that, as he hasn't violated any express arrangement we had.  He just continues cyclically to shred the bonds between us, is all.

I'm only halfway through this thread, but this line just jumps right out and can summarize what we are all going through. Could be the motto of this site.

It comes down to: If you really do accept him as he is what he is, there would be no pain involved, would there? This goes beyond compassion and loss, beyond adapting to the (same old same old) variables. Overthinking our own expectations can lead us to put up walls where there didn't use to be so many, and lower our self-protective boundaries. Each of those bring doubt, amongst other detriments.

BPD is a puzzle that can't be solved because it won't allow it to.

P&C, hello, sorry to hear you're struggling. You always do seem pretty clear, getting your thoughts across. Opening your eyes as much as possible, reaching out when you feel the need to. Still in the holding pattern of waiting for the love relationship to be back together and solid. That's really been the undercurrent. It's ok in some ways, where you are, you're trying to make the best of it, but you're looking for a place to land, and land with Him. It's who you are! You want to be with him. You care about him, and you feel better when he's showing that he actually cares about you, too. Each of you saying yes you want to be together but no, here's why, but yes, but no, and each gets more confused. Each pulls away and comes closer, repeat, etc. Each keeps the pattern going. Each side very much affected by what is going on, responding in the ways you've grown accustomed to.

The degrees of PTSD, trauma, betrayal, selfdoubt, etc., extend down into the roots of ourselves and this site, as well as the possibilities of positive change, trust, and love. The time to flip a coin on that is long past gone, it's time for all of us to Decide For Ourselves. To live our best lives. That can include standing by people who are troublesome to us, to say the least, but are important pieces in our stories (and we in theirs), and it also should include a healthy sense of when to draw the line. For how others can act with us as well as how we accept ourselves and carry on.

If what you really feel is to BE with him, maybe what will cut this tension and get rid of a lot of these questions is to just say that to him, once and for all, and if he goes for it... .Why go around that? Aren't your intentions good? Prolonged exposure to this IS harmful! As he 'shreds the bonds between you', and the light is coming in, what is it that you REALLY see? Act on that. Believe in that. Sifting through this, where's the gold?

What is your plate, P&C?  A place where you're no longer feeling hurt, rejected and betrayed by him?

good question... .and what happens if he's not capable of the things on the plate, Then what.  I found it interesting that Maybeso's guy showed up yet again promising the moon.  When does it stop?

I saw a T while going through the worst of my r/s and it was exactly like what you describe P&C, only worse cause I was in so deep with him, and I allowed it to go on so long and have involved myself with so many devestating recycles.

I was suffering some PTSD from it, but I do feel much better and much stronger right now. I do not shake anymore or ruminate about the past anymore, well, not much. I truly feel I went into PTSD and moved through it and out the other side. There is such a thing as "post traumatic growth"; PTSD doesn't have to be an awful thing that never has any good outcome. Hang in there P&C, it will get better, and being in T does help.