BPDFamily.com

I have been on a roller coaster for a while now... .  I have come to the conclusion that this is the best place for me to post.  A part of me still wants to be with her (co-dependent, fear of abandonment, separation anxiety), but she has painted me so black that it isn't going to happen. 

We met 5.5 years ago, right after I finally broke free from a 10yr relationship/marriage to a diagnosed BPD/Bi-Polar.  She loved everything I loved, and I just ignored red flags (there were lots) because she was my "pain medicine" from my recent divorce.  There was barely a six week gap, if that.  In the beginning, she tried to meet my emotional needs.  She did nice things for me, wrote notes, etc.  Eventually that subsided.  We even saw a marriage counselor BEFORE we got married, but I still married her as I felt obligated (and scared of being alone).  Besides, how bad could it really be compared to my previous marriage?

We had a son in March of 2011.  Her focus moved more towards him, but we kept things fairly happy.  I always felt like things were "off", and that she was overly critical of others, of me, etc.  I even felt a twinge of pain on a couple of occasions where she was that way with my oldest son.

Fast forward to early/mid 2012.  We try counseling again, she keeps firing them every time they want her to look at herself.  I continue individual counseling (with both a LCSW and an MD Psychiatrist who share an office).  While they have not officially diagnosed her, they consider her to be Axis II, Cluster B (blend of mostly BPD/NPD traits -- many of which manifesting worst now due to circumstances).  We had a 1.5 yr old, and were struggling.

What is the best way to save a marriage?  Have another kid, of course.     (we also considered moving out of state, her going back to school, me quitting my job, and settled on having a second child and buying a bigger house).  I never could get her to meet my emotional needs.  We tried counseling, but she just kept saying it wasn't her.  I am too needy, need too many pats on the back, constant validation, etc.  There is probably some truth to some of it, but it is somewhere in the middle. (not 0/100 or 100/0, but a blend).

I was mentoring someone at work when they were going through some things.  It turned into me becoming her support system, eventually an emotional affair, and then a long-term physical affair that I couldn't bring myself to end.  My wife found out early July, and let's just say we have been on a roller coaster since.  One day we were working on it, holding hands, and the next I was sleeping in the basement, the most horrific things being said around my kids.

She was threatening to move out of state with the kids, so I filed for separation.  She responded to the petition with divorce.

About me:

- mid/late 30s

- two kids (under 3)

- Separation anxiety, fears of abandonment, self-worth issues, self-image issues, co-dependent, validation junkie

About her:

- 30

- Lacks empathy (she has family members going through things and she won't even talk to them).

- VERY black and white (she has cut out blood-relatives for actions, still doesn't talk to them).

- Her modeling of a "connection" in a relationship was parents who fought, hated each other, and were incredibly disruptive in everyone's lives around them.

- Undiagnosed Cluster B demonstrating NPD and BPD tendencies

D-day, she found out July 8th.  With her BPD/NPD traits (specifically lack of empathy, splitting, and sense of entitlement), there was ZERO chance of reconciliation.  For maybe a day or two she tried to bury it and pretend everything was ok.  Since then, she has been beyond cruel.  Saying things to my sons that should never be said, actively trying to destroy my support system and social circles -- down right mean.  7 police calls, she was ALMOST arrested for domestic violence (I talked the police down -- apparently to my detriment on the divorce front).  Now it is daily texts about how I "chose her" and that everything in our life is "tainted" (selling the house, she is going to sell her car, she wants EVERYTHING gone).  It was interesting the day she put it together that my affair partner had met our two boys -- hard to throw them out with the bathwater, but the internal angst was obvious by the look on her face.  She can't look at what I did as a poor choice, me being week, me being selfish, or any combination thereof.  Instead, I am the flaw and she will forever regret having children with me.  She left every piece of wedding memorabilia aside from her dress and the rings (likely due to value), and left everything else for me.  I will box it up in case my boys ever want to know where they came from.

Our state requires co-parenting classes during the divorce process.  We have both taken them.  It hasn't changed her behavior any.  I am scared for my sons.  There is another "high conflict" class that I am going to

I have an individual counselor, I have joined a divorce support group, and am trying to learn how to be alone.  That is hard for me.

I had an epiphany when a fairly well known Psych/MD (the one that shares a practices with my LCSW) pointed out Cluster B (after a couple hundred hours of discussions with both me and the LCSW).  He also expressed great concern for the children, as my STB ex wife is literally acting like her own mother.  She acts like the ultimate victim here, and is putting my boys in the middle.  She tells a horrific story, she is 0% responsible, and the only way she knows how to CONNECT with someone is to fight, pick, jab, poke, stab, twist, etc.  In other words, now that I have wronged her, she is acting out the same way her parents have for the last 30 years.  He is concerned for my boys as they are digressing rapidly (and she has primary custody).

We are going to order a psych eval as part of the divorce proceedings, but it may not matter.  She is extremely bright (4.0, got into anesthesia school, etc.).

My issue is that my "stinking thinking" still feels like if I walk the tightrope JUST RIGHT, she will take me back.  Why would I want that?  Well, the poop stinks but it sure was warm... .  It is crazy that I would even consider it, but a part of me feels like the only way I can protect the boys is to get back to living with them.

Every exchange with the kids is nasty.  Random texts throughout the day are nasty.  This sucks.

I went to speech therapy this morning (we had previously agreed I would be going), she almost didn't let me participate, and said it would be the last time.  She has told me she wishes I would kill myself, that it would be better for the kids, and that she will find them a real man to call Daddy.

I have all of this logged (and some recorded -- we are in a one-party state).  I am encroaching on 500 entries in my email box for logs (since July 8th).

I bought and am reading "Splitting".  I am a little concerned that my attorney only has 5 years experience.  She is a family member of a friend, is giving me a great rate, and I do think she will put her heart and soul into this to try and help me get the best outcome.  I have considered switching to a "big name" attorney with 35 yrs, several thousand cases, etc.

I just want:

- A couple of overnights a week with my 2.5yo (reasonable in this state)

- Joint decision making (health, school, etc.)

- Progressive parenting time as the kids age to where it is eventually 50/50

- For her to stop manipulating the kids (my 2yo now parrots ":)addy doesn't love me, mommy does"

I still love her, and am struggling with the separation as a whole, but I can't see a remote chance in **** that she will ever consider a relationship with me (and when I read the responses, i believe it was a combination of fulfilling what I wasn't getting at home, lashing out, and subconsciously finding a way to end the marriage.  The latter is what my therapist thinks.

The memories of our "good times" (while I can specifically remember some being NOT so good) are constantly haunting me... .CONSTANTLY.  My brain sounds like a depressing country song right now.

My heart goes out to you... .

I know of the twisted knot of which you speak... .and a co-dependency that still yearns for a quality connection of joint decision-making and an end to manipulation.  So hard to see the forest from the trees.  BUT--- the liklihood of healthy joint decision-making and an end to manipulation sounds like a fantasy... .which can keep you dangling, dangling, while you get kicked around some more.

I'm learning about my own co-dependency (the way that got triggered inside my marriage, was a way to keep from leaving, and it ran far deeper than i knew existed because i had it covered up with overachievement --- which then got displaced onto doing everything i could to appease her, while losing my sense of self in the process) and redirecting my focus to owning my power, taking responsibility for my stuff, and attempting to improve my own self-care without having expectations upon her for any type of emotional support or understanding.

Can you focus on getting your overnights... .and letting go of the rest, especially ANYTHING as it relates to having expectations about her in terms of taking the high road, being consistent, keeping agreements, and being genuinely civil?

And simplifying as much as you possibly can, and keep returning to that line of focus, keeping your eye on the ball... .

your own self-care, reduction in co-dependency triggers, letting go and moving on... .and preparing to have quality overnights when the time comes

Hi jmrsic,

I think you're in the right place.  :)

A couple of things jumped out at me:

":)addy doesn't love me, mommy does." I recommend getting a copy of Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak to help you with this. Parental alienation seems to go hand-in-hand with BPD divorces. Warshak likens parental alienation to brainwashing and propaganda. You need to figure out ways to deal with it now while the kids are young. Another book that changed my life, and also helps with the parental alienation, is Power of Validation. My ex used to say I loved the dog more than him. Then my son started saying it. My response was always some variation of "I love you more than the dog." By the time I read Power of Validation, my son was 8 and telling me he wanted to open the car door and kill himself. I had to learn how to say, You must be feeling so sad and hurt to want to do that. I would cry so hard for a long time because it would hurt me to see you hurt.

Instead of, Don't you dare open that door! Or, Why would you ever say that? Etc.

Other thing that jumped out at me: experience seems to count with Ls. Mine was experienced. I have been in court enough to see inexperienced Ls in action, and I think the experience really counts. Sometimes I thought I could even tell when inexperienced Ls were wasting their client's money because they don't know how to be efficient. Like testimony that went on way too long, or not understanding procedure, or not thinking strategically and tactically well in advance.

Last thing, potentially related: why does your ex have primary custody?

I just bought both ebooks.  Thank you.


I didn't know what to do, don't know what to do.  She used to work four swing shifts, and we both got fairly equal parenting time (pre-affair, pre- D-Day).  Once she found out, she went to attorney's immediately, wanted me out of the house, locked the kids in the room with her, etc.  I had to keep going to work, so she would "control" the time I got.  I found out she was moving out with two days' notice.  I want more time, but she is claiming I was an absentee father (untrue), that I lack integrity (yes, I had an affair, but it doesn't DEFINE me). 

She was weening our youngest (~8mo now) when she found out (he was ~6mo).  She immediately began full-on breast-feeding again (and even said she would breast feed until elementary school if it reduced my time with my kids).  I have in one of my journal entries where she said her attorney told her to do that because they don't impute income and likely won't award overnights with kids under 30-months -- especially if they are breastfeeding.

She took the kids and is deciding when I get to see them.  This is where I am a little concerned that I may not have enough firepower on MY legal side... .

Last email from her atty to mine (and to me) -- redacted names, etc.:

-dad- may care for the children this week:

Tuesday from 4:00 to 8:00

Friday from 4:00 to 8:00

Sunday 10:00 to 8:00

-dad- appeared at my client’s home today for the speech therapy and apparently wishes to attend s2.5's swim classes and soccer practices.  -ustbxBPDw- will do the transportation for the swim lessons and soccer.  We need to come to an agreement on temporary maintenance and child support or I will be asking for a temporary orders hearing at the ISC on Monday.  I will send you the proposed worksheet in a separate email.

I responded to MY ATTY:

-ustbxBPDw- had always proposed that I attend speech, soccer, and swim. It was even in the agreement I signed from her former attorney. Her attorneys comments below make it sound like a surprise.

I haven't missed a single soccer practice. -ustbxBPDw- is the one who has skipped several... .

By her doing all transportation, that further reduces my 1:1 time with s2.5... .I feel like we are at her mercy, and she has been trying to punish me using the kids - look at the track record.

I didn't see where she said I could or could not come to speech next Monday... .Can we get that clarified?

Should I wait for the worksheet & proposed amounts before writing her a check?

Frustrated  

---------EOM

On the financial front, we make more than the state statutes for temporary maintenance.  She cut her hours from $70k/yr to 16hrs a week "in the best interest of the children that they spend more time with their mother" (since dad is off having affairs, talking to his *****, etc.).  There are things we can BOTH point to where mistakes were made (although she feels she is 100% innocent and this was ALL my doing).  We had a nanny, and the nanny's would frequently stay and help with bed-time.  -ustbxBPDw- considers that to be "more time i spent with my affair partner" and that I was abandoning the family.  I am sorry, my 55-70hr work week pre-dates the kids and the affair by a long time, and she had the luxury of staying home for the first few months of each of our children's lives. 

She stumbled upon my text history, so she has 8 months of gory details (which she then printed since it was on the laptop in google voice).  She then printed all phone records.  She has a lot of ammunition to show when I wasn't around, but she can't truly say how much of that was when I was working vs. not (and their were 8 hotel charges in 9 months).  I made a mistake, but she is painting me out to be a monster... .

I want more time with my kids - especially overnights (at least with my oldest).  My attorney has given me some indication that I will get more time with them, but I am just at a point where I am very VERY concerned about ending up with too little by way of time.  I am not as concerned with the money.  This will probably bankrupt me the way she is racking up legal debt.  She is on her 6th attorney (between consults and full on retainers).  I changed once when my first one was less than competent. 

Scared,

JMR

Are you living in an alienation of affection state? If you are, your attorney will have told you. If so, then the affair will impact alimony, but that's it. Not custody.

So if your ex wants to prove that you had an affair, fine. It sounds like she has that evidence. But when it comes to the kids, the court is not likely to punish you for having an affair by limiting time with the kids. In fact, if your ex plays that card too hard, it could come back to bite her.

Most courts want to see kids have a healthy relationship with both parents, and if one parent is trying to prevent that, the court won't like it. 

What advice is your L giving you right now?

We are in a no-fault divorce state.  The affair won't impact anything, really. 

Re-phrase, it magnifies her "victim" mentality to the 100th degree.  She is talking about blogging about it, sharing with family, friends, etc.

She wants to tell my boys too, to hurt me.  She has also threatened to tell any and every possible future girlfriend I ever have. 

At my son's swim today, she kept picking, I kept ignoring.  It resulted in some nasty comments.  When I didn't respond to those, it turned into a phone call 15 minutes later "wanting to talk for the good of the boys".  I won't even entertain that next time, because by 3 minutes in she was saying hurtful things before hanging up on me.

JUST got an email of a picture from our wedding with no other text... .

<sigh>

Not responding... .

I hope you have a good T who can help you with this. It sounds like you know it won't make a big difference in your custody stuff, but that she'll try to break you down psychologically by threatening to expose you, and publicly humiliate you. Try to get everything you can in writing -- threatening to tell the kids about your affair only hurts her, at least from a legal perspective.

Do you know Mary Oliver? Her poem Wild Geese is one of my favorites.

Wild Geese

You do not have to be good.

You do not have to walk on your knees

for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.

You only have to let the soft animal of your body

      love what it loves.

Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.

Meanwhile the world goes on.

Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain

are moving across the landscapes,

over the prairies and the deep trees,

the mountains and the rivers.

Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,

are heading home again.

Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,

the world offers itself to your imagination,

calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting-

over and over announcing your place

in the family of things.

Your email struck a chord with me because I'm having trouble facing the reality of divorce too.  I never wanted to end up divorced like my parents.  But I also am co-dependent and seek validation.  I ended up marrying my BPD husband and having 2 kids with him.  He can be so sweet at times, and so awful at others.  I filed for divorce before I was really ready to separate, but I did it for similar reasons to why you did it.

I just wanted to give you a ((hug)).  This is a cruel disorder. 

Also, I think you should start out asking for more parenting time.  Let her fight you on it so that you get something in the middle.  If you are so concerned for the kids, you may well be able to get them for a decent amount of time, depending on your state.  Many states really want to see dads have decent time if the dads are involved or want to be. 

Also, you can try to do all the right things, let her back into your life and walk on eggshells, but for how long?  You can't keep a bomb from exploding by jumping on it. You can only make it a bit less explosive or whatever... .I am losing control of this metaphor. 

You seem smart and kind, a good catch.  I don't think your wife is done with you.  I think she will recycle you at some point, or try.  Just follow your heart.  Seems to me you are better off leaving her, but you never know what will happen.  Hang in there.  And keep posting.

This reads a lot like me ex.

Reading quickly what I see on the parenting time, progressively increasing.  That may be difficult, and just happy with less time - take a step back and ask if that is genuinely in your childrens' best interest.  I had two boys under 5 when I started the process, my goal was nothing less than 50% time for the simple fact of reducing their time with ex and their exposure to chaos and manipulation. 

In the meantime, ex has done everything to get herself more time with these boys, first it started out as finding jobs with a cushy schedule and early dismissal so she can pick up every day, reduced pay, now, she's just not working because I had set up my own daycare. 

My point, it can get worse and the walls can continue to close in on you if you don't shoot high to start with.

Good luck. 

I've dealt with this too, high functioning NPD/BPD, high IQ, and she has for four years avoided court ordered psych eval.  MAKE SURE - you find a very good, well respected Dr. to administer the psych eval.  MAKE SURE - your attorney stipulates what Dr. is going to administer the tests, it should include at a minimum, the MMPI-II, make sure the Order states this emphatically.

Much of your experience mirrors mine too... .

• I mistakenly thought having a child would make my ex happier, instead it gave her leverage over me and vastly complicated everything, especially custody and parenting.



• My then spouse refused joint counseling, was in utter Denial for her part in our problems and an expert at blaming and blame-shifting.



• Courts care very little, if at all, about adult behaviors such as friendships, affairs, etc, so don't fret over the legal aspects of that.  Yes it hastened the end of the marriage but it was dysfunctional and unhealthy long before then.  In my case there was no affair but she sure interrogated me as though I had.  I saw it as projection on her part, she had belittled me viciously and compared me to other 'better' men.



• We took ordered parenting classes as you did and it didn't change her either.



• There are concerns our children are digressing, I had similar concerns too, I had worries our son was somewhere on the mild autism spectrum.  But of course it wasn't an issue with him, it was his environment.



• I too wanted to reconcile, but once I got the police involved I was permanently painted black.  That started my years-long struggle to remain a father and have parenting.  I had to accept that I had to establish my own peaceful and calm home where I could parent my child.



• "She has told me she wishes I would kill myself, that it would be better for the kids, and that she will find them a real man to call Daddy."  Yes, my experience too.

Sadly, it is what it is.  If you go back you will be returning to the battle arena and as a reasonably normal father you'd be at a disadvantage again.  You know it logically but your heart and emotions need more time to catch up.  It's called 'recovery'.  Give yourself time to recover.

As noted by several others here, all states are mostly or completely No Fault states.  So her overreaction, thinking it is basis to block or obstruct your parenting, is all about her and very little about court.  Sadly, court is unlikely to step in the middle and clarify it for her.  She probably wouldn't listen anyway.

Overnights are standard unless the parent is seen as abusive, neglectful or endangering.  No reason to passively accept any schedule below the court's typical order for that age group.  Sorry but if you're not assertive and proactive, the other parent's emotional intensity will probably overwhelm the professionals and they'll be inclined to pacify by making extreme schedules reducing your parenting.  Breastfeeding?  Express the milk and pass it along at the exchanges.  So look up the published 'standard' schedules for your court.  :)on't accept anything less that the standard minimum.  Yes, the court can order it anyway, but making deals at this point won't be helping your case.

Make the case about the welfare of your children, more about them than about the conflict between the parents.  The court doesn't care how you two get along so focus on how her behaviors are impacting the children and the children's relationship with you.  So when presenting your documentation you can include all her poor behaviors but give primary focus to her poor parenting behaviors (and how her actions impact your parenting too) and less about her adult behaviors.

It is crucial that you are as proactive as you can be as a parent.  Fathers, especially reasonably normal but passive ones, don't fare well in court when opposed by an obstructive spouse.  You need every edge you can get.  Generally that has to include a Custody Evaluation by a competent, experienced and perceptive professional.  Not all CEs are up to the daunting task, just as not all lawyers, therapists, GALs or courts are prepared for the emotional and demanding onslaught.

Thanks all for your support.  I am struggling again today due to not wanting the divorce (again).  My attorney hasn't been all that responsive, but I think she is trying to save me money.  My home inspection went ok, apparently.  Appraisal ordered.  My dream home will be sold soon.  I guess I really need to start packing my stuff (that makes it real to me   ).


Thanks, momtara.  I would be very surprised if she ever recycled me.  This is where the NPD portion may outweigh some of her BPD traits.  She has never allowed her mom to re-enter her life (18+ years).  At times, I still hope she will.  She has some interesting thinking that I believe will not allow her mentally to over overcome an affair:

You made a choice > that choice hurt me > therefore you meant to hurt me > therefore you are a malicious person

She cannot differentiate between people and their choices/behaviors.  She now feels like I am truly a malicious, deceitful person.

I think the majority of my mental anguish comes from my own attachment disorder(s).  I don't like being alone.

I will look into the MMPI-II and ask my attorney about it.  The way the psych evals work in this state, it will be ordered for BOTH of us as a combined child investigative services and the psych eval.  They make recommendations on parenting, and the courts tend to follow the recommendations.

Question:  Her bday is next week.  I already bought a card (to mom from sons), and was going to put a gift card in there.  I thought of signing it with their hand prints.

Do I do this?  Her bday also corresponds with MY evening with them.  Do I try and swap days so she can have the boys on her bday?

Goes back to someone's earlier point; whatever I give won't be looked at as me doing something nice, it will just be perceived as weakness and she will take it and ask for more... .

I think your last sentence is correct.  Wait until she asks, regarding the birthday.  She may  not care about having the boys on her bday unless you mention it.  You don't want to set a precedent.  (That said, my custody agreement actually says that I get the kids on my b-day, so those things may end up working out that way anyway, but wait for her to ask for it.)

I think it's fine to give her whatever you planned to give her for her bday.  I don't want you to have regrets in the future. 

It is ok to still love her.  Just be careful not to give up too much in terms of custody.

This is where you need to familiarize yourself with your county's standard forms, in this case the holiday schedule.  Nearly all holiday schedules will alternate the holidays including the children's birthdays, not all include the parents' birthdays as a qualifying event.  For example mine doesn't recognize the parents' birthdays.

Be very careful that if she wants 'her' bday with the kids and it's not part of the standard order, then get her agreement in writing that when your bday rolls around then you automatically get the kids on 'your' bday too!

PwBPD have long memories when it comes to what they want, but short memories for what we want, even if it's just equal treatment.  Reciprocity seldom happens post-relationship so protect yourself. 

This will now be one of the regular readings that I will add to my growing list.  I have several things (some from friends, some from this forum, others from books) that I read regularly to remind me of things.

This one is particularly important for me.  I am the classic "people pleaser" giver type.  Example, she made a comment in front of my s2.5 that "we can't take pictures anymore because daddy took the cameras".  a) not true, she has at least one point and shoot -- I believe two, and the $1200 camcorder that shoots 12MP stills.  It isn't a full DSLR, but I was the photographer (including college classes, sold prints, etc.)  I was (up until this weekend) considering GIVING HER my photography equipment because she has the kids and needs to have nice cameras, right?  (not to mention the $3500 in monthly maintenance and $1900 in child support -- I bet she could buy a camera with some of that). 

What helped me turn THAT corner was the day she called asking for a collection of other things (where I dropped everything to gather up all she asked for).  She subsequently treated me like gum she had just stepped on on hot asphalt.  I was more than an annoyance despite my dropping everything and running over with all she required (and more).  It was a drop it off and get the **** out of here (I had spent time, driven to her place, etc.).

Emotional state today:  It is hard for me at this point as I never meant to have an affair, I never set out to have an affair, it was a LONG process that began with a friendship, my being a crying shoulder for the other woman, and an emotional affair that I didn't recognize was a problem until I had started to feel validated (and began to realize that there IS life outside of this cluster B, BPD/NPD stuff).  It was then that I allowed myself to develop feelings for this other person.  I made that choice, but if H*** hath no fury like a woman scorned, I wonder what they say about BPD/NPD?


ForeverDad,

You have been around a long time.  I have participated in these forums years ago, and I recognize you.  I would be open (and welcome) any/all feedback you have regarding the legal aspects.  a)  She is "controlling" my time with the kids (she says when, her attorney shuttles the messages, etc.).  b) I am not sure my attorney is experienced enough.  c)  We are in a one-party state as it relates to recording.  While my attorney says judges don't look upon it kindly, I can't always get everything she says/does down fully after each "exchange" or dialogue.  I know I am missing parts & pieces.

Aside from the aforementioned books (and the articles here), what else do I do?  I want to be in my children's lives -- from decision making to involvement in activities -- to just plain time... .

She is so sticky sweet with the boys when others are around that it is nauseating.  I truly look like the devil due to my affair.  While that won't matter in court (no-fault state), she sure paints a HORROR story about how I abandoned her and my boys to run off with some ***** where in reality I was working a ton of hours to better their (and my) lifestyles.

So I tried to drop off a $2000 check yesterday despite their being no orders in place.  The first status hearing is on Monday.  I have already paid her $2900.  I wanted to be "ahead" when child support and maintenance were ordered so I wasn't being forced to come up with some massive sum of money.  This would have put $4900 in her hands within TWO WEEKS of moving out (technically within 12 days).  She refused it saying "I can't accept that, I am entitled to much more."  I left it on the coffee table and just emailed my attorney.

She tried to call me last night via the home phone (she rarely does that, we don't use the home line).  I chose not to answer as the late night calls/emails have ALWAYS been a way to beat up on me (you did this, you ruined our family, destroyed our marriage, you chose her - remember that... .).

I texted this morning to check on the boys, they are "fine".  I am sick of her "setting the terms" for when I see the kids.  It isn't right.  My attorney is asking if I will concede a bit on the money part if she will concede on time (specifically overnights) with the boys in good faith to get us into a temporary agreement and move straight to permanent orders.

I am ok with it, but want to ensure whatever is "agreed to" is legal and binding... .  I need to know if she does something wonky with the kids, etc. that a police officer will actually take the order/agreement into consideration (meaning it needs to be entered with the court, etc.).

Congratulations on keeping a good boundary last night on not taking the bait in the form of latenight calls/emails designed and targeted to beat you up.

Keep your eye on the ball... .

Keep asking good questions / getting good feedback from the board.

: )

Just got some interesting (scary) feedback from my therapist.  She is recommending we DO NOT get the psych eval.  She says that since I am the one who goes to therapy and is on anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds (wife won't go, etc.), and because my wife is extremely high-functioning, combined with her having seen several that weren't even close to accurate to the individual(s) she has been seeing for years; she feels there is a higher likelihood of it hurting me than any potential positives it might yield.  She doesn't feel that BPD, NPD, or Cluster B would significantly impact parenting time, but the fact that I have been on meds and in therapy for years (and that my wife didn't even know because she "didn't believe in it" -- despite her working in medicine) could make me appear as dishonest to the judge, notwithstanding whatever the evaluations could yield for either or both of us.

Did the checks include on the memo line something like "toward child support"?  Even if you did remember to do that, it's very possible the court could view ANY money given before an order as a GIFT and not child support or spousal support.  That has happened to many of us here, our considerateness wasn't just ignored, it made us poorer.  Some have commented on a saying here:  The misbehaving one seldom get consequences and the one behaving well seldom gets credit.  Be aware.

So the big question is, do you want to end up with an order that (1) might make you pay twice or (2) an order nudged higher than it otherwise would be because you are already sending too high an amount?

So, rather than paying her more than you should, why not set aside that money so that IF/WHEN the court orders retroactive support (child or spousal) and IF your earlier payments are deemed to be GIFTS then at that time you will have the money to pay as ordered.  Yes, you should give her some money in these early days of the separation but beware you will most likely never get any credit for giving her extra now, not from her, not from the court.  Remember, if you gift her too much and the court later orders you to pay a lower amount, it will never order her to refund you the excess.

Also, the more you offer, the more she will want.  You may see it as generosity, she sees it as weakness to enable her to feel she needs to demand even more.


Unless you are independently wealthy, beware of seeming like Mr Deep Pockets.  Clearly you can afford much more than most members here but beware the hope that you can buy a good order.  For most of us, we were not able to get a good order by negotiation so early in the process.  The disordered parent simply feels too entitled and too in control.  In many cases here it turns one of these ways or both:  (1) The judge makes an Order that is far better than any crumbs the other parent would give us.  (2) You are close to an impending event such as a hearing or trial, the ex looks bad in reports, the ex finally stops feeling in control and the ex is ready to deal.

Be cautious about accepting an unfavorable temporary settlement or order.  Too often we've seen temporary orders morph unchanged into permanent or final orders.  If your lawyer says, ":)on't worry, we'll fix it later" it may take a long time and a lot of money to get it 'fixed'.


So true, but you can't reason with her.  Neither can your money.  how does the saying go?  "Possession is 9/10 of the law."  At this point, without an order stating otherwise, you both probably have equal but unspecified rights as parents.  Even the police won't want to decide who gets the kids and when without a written order from the court.  Likely you will have to have the judge set an order.  Unfortunately for you, (1) you are of the wrong gender for default court preference and (2) you also are the one working so unless your child has a nanny, sitter or goes to daycare she will be credited by default as the "majority time parent".  Until you can get her behaviors documented before the court you're likely to have to fight hard for a decent temporary order and only walk out with alternate weekends and a couple evenings or overnights in between.

In most cases you don't have to feel pressured to make a quick deal.  At this early stage a deal now is at high risk to be very unfair to you, giving her too much control over parenting and too much money.  I'm getting the feeling that your lawyer's hope to get a reasonable outcome this soon may indicate his inexperience with high conflict, entitled, controlling, blaming, disordered people.  Around here we quickly learn that appeasing doesn't work, it usually just enables and encourages more demands.  I mean, it's good that he tries to determine if an agreement can be reached, but does he know that if it doesn't succeed soon, then he has to withdraw the offer and get to the judge ASAP.  It is a truism here, you'll most likely get a better order from the judge than in an early deal with the unreasonable parent.  (We encourage our members to keep the case moving along while negotiating, putting the hearings on hold removes the pressure for the obstructive parent to negotiate.

If you haven't gotten a copy of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger, then get it NOW!  It's the #1 handbook we recommend here when facing high conflict, a separation, or divorce.

It's good that your T is aware of your situation and her advice might be good, but you need to ask your L about this. If you don't trust your L, get a second opinion -- pay the $50 or $100 is costs for the consultation, and ask about this specifically.

My T is excellent, and so is my L. But I kept telling my L what my T said, and L finally say, "With all due respect, I am your L, and your T is not licensed to practice law. This is my specialty and I do not agree with T about xyz."

I'm not saying your T is right or wrong, just that you need to weigh her input with what your L is saying. And so that you don't feel too nervous about yes/no to the psych eval: There are other strategies that have worked for some of us. If your ex is high-functioning, a deposition can really help. Depositions lay down testimony that become part of the court record. Do you live in a state that uses parent coordinators? That's another tool in your toolkit. Ask your L how your judge views parental alienation -- maybe your court is highly intolerant of PA. It would be good to find that out from your L.

When I first separated, the judge ordred us both to have psych evals.  Big deal, mine was a grad student and a two hour test/interview.  Everyone has issues, no one is perfect - no matter how perfect the pwBPD think they are.  So my issue?  Anxiety.  Duh, the marriage was imploding, no surprise there.  My ex?  To my knowledge she never complied, court never followed up and asked either.  So in my case psych evals by themselves were effectively meaningless.

However, once we were divorcing there were various steps to take during those two years:  temporary order, mediation attempt, court's parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference and finally trial.  The custody evaluator was a professional, a child psychologist.  He did an excellent job.  Although he warned me from the start not to expect much since she had the history of majority time parenting, somewhere along the way he saw the vast difference of our behaviors.  His initial report was short compared to others reported here, less than a dozen pages, but he captured the core issues.  Two items I recall in the summary, one was that mother couldn't share 'her' child but father could and the other was that mother should lose temp custody immediately.  (The temp order never changed, court ignored that recommendation and moved on to the next step.)

So for many of us a Custody Evaluation, which generally include psych evals such as the MMPI2, was needed to bring to the court's attention the issues and behaviors that ought to affect custody.  The key is that you try your best to get a good, experienced, unbiased, perceptive professional as custody evaluator, same as you try to do when getting a lawyer, a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) or parenting coordinator (PC).  Don't go solely by price, go by reputation and recommendation.

So I agree with LnL, the fact that you're in therapy does not mean you are the problem, are causing the problems or have the most problems.  What it should mean to an expert is that you recognize a need and you are addressing it.  Also, your issues are mostly situational, that is, you probably wouldn't be in such intensive therapy if not for your spouse's behaviors, right?  See the point?  It's all about perspective.  Try your best to look from the outside in, not from the inside out.  Try to look at your situation from the eyes of others, from as many angle as possible.  Be objective in your perspective, not subjective.

Are you into physics and theory?  How about the theory of relativity?  Not the deep aspects, just from the surface.  Here's my example.  Jump as high as you can.  What was it, a foot?  Do you feel weak and puny?  Of course.  But relativity says all thing are relative.  So change the perspective and what you actually did was push the entire universe a foot away from you for a split second.  (Yes, gravity is that abysmally weak.)  Wow, looking at it that way and what we can do with a silly weak jump is astounding.  Make sense?  Perspective can help you see yourself as a loser or a winner, all up to you.

"So I tried to drop off a $2000 check yesterday despite their being no orders in place.  The first status hearing is on Monday.  I have already paid her $2900.  I wanted to be "ahead" when child support and maintenance were ordered so I wasn't being forced to come up with some massive sum of money.  This would have put $4900 in her hands within TWO WEEKS of moving out (technically within 12 days). "

DO NOT DO THIS! You're money will be wasted without a court order to pay. Keep it and pay it if any back payments are required,but DO NOT pay without an order.

Also,if she moved out and you're still in the home,you can request the kids be returned to the marital home and you have exclusive use.

Does your therapist have a lot of legal experience with custody, local psych evals, etc?  Her advice may or may not be valid.  I've read that it's ok to get therapy because it looks like you're helping yourself.  That said, I don't know what's in your records that she could exploit.  You're right that your wife could come up shining and it could backfire.  I didn't get a psych eval because my husband is fairly high functioning and fooled two marriage therapists, one who supposedly had a lot of background in DV.  However, now I worry that he's nuts and part of me wants him diagnosed.  A psych eval wouldn't change our custody, though, I think.

So what I'm saying is, your T may be right, but her opinion is just an opinion unless she's very familiar with local courts.  From reading this board, psych evals don't generally make much of a diff in many cases.

If your ex engages in emotional reasoning, which many pwBPD do, then a deposition might be a better tool. She will say outlandish and outrageous things, and contradict herself, and that will become testimony that she must stand by in court. Not easy to do when you invent stuff. It will undermine her credibility.

In your case, a deposition would expose how she's obsessively angry toward you, and that rage is impeding her judgment about what's best for the kids, which should be to foster a healthy relationship with you. If you have the deposition done 6 months after date of separation, and she is still raging at you, the court will start to see that she has anger issues. Courts want to see anger abating, not increasing or remaining red hot after 6 months.

With high-functioning BPD, I think the key is to aim high and pace yourself. Ask for more than what you plan to settle for, and use the slow process of the court system to your advantage, and then think strategically how to expose behaviors to the court. Keep in mind that many courts do not care about things that happened 6 months before. And once you have a hearing, anything settled at that hearing is on the record. Meaning, if you try to revisit issues that happened before your first hearing, the court won't hear it. Don't think that you can agree to something below standard with your ex now, and then re-negotiate a better outcome at a different hearing. It doesn't quite work that way.

Also, ask your L about using a parenting coordinator. Not a co-parenting therapist -- that's different. A parenting coordinator has extension of judicial duties. You would sign a parenting coordinator order that would likely be in effect for one or two years.

The memo line specifically said "Child Support/Maintenance".  My L was the one who told me to give the money and who told me to include that.  My pockets aren't THAT deep, but I have significant cash flow.  We would have had more cash on hand except that we both spent like it grows on trees.  For our (former) income, we should have had substantial savings.  (She reduced her hours and effectively nullified most of her income).


That has me worried.  My L has been pushing me to get a temporary agreement in place that would be either no overnights or one overnight (per week) for 2.5s with the "callout" in the agreement saying I disagree with the overall parenting time and that it should be revisited at permanent orders.  This makes me wonder if she lacks experience, or if this is truly a precedent that she sees consistently in this district.


Bought, and reading.

I am beginning to really wonder if my L is the right one for me.  She only has ~5yrs experience, and she has already told me this is the "craziest" case she has ever seen.  She is a family member of a friend who is "helping me out".  Two friends who are also attorneys said I should stay with her because she is a) fair on billing and has given me a TON of time and feedback without nickel and diming me  b) She knows me, and has a bit more of a vested interest in doing a good job and getting me the best outcome  c) It would take a new L 40-80 hours to get through the 8 police reports and ~2-300 pages of documentation that I have compiled thus far.  I spoke with a VERY experienced L last week who said he wouldn't even touch this for about 2.5x (retainer and hourly) above what I am paying now.  My concern with him was that he sounded like he had a game plan before he even knew the facts.  He has 3200 divorces under his belt in 35 years, but that also screams rigidity and routine to me.




When I get my L on the phone, I will talk with her and try to get a feel for her reasoning/logic.  Until then, I only have the T side of things.



Understood.  (I do like physics and theory, btw).  I just don't have the experience or knowledge to try and look at from a judge, child advocate/CFI/PSE perspective.  I hear what I hear from my T and it worries me.  The comment above about the Psych evals not having impact in most cases also concerns me.  My ex is one of the smartest people I know.  Summa cum laude, anesthesia school, 4.0, scholarships, etc.  The only thing in my favor is she is a TERRIBLE people person.  She is critical, lacks empathy, can't talk in front of a crowd (in contrast, I am an executive for one of the top 50 fastest growing mortgage-industry companies in the nation, I report into the c-suite, interface with auditors, regulatory agencies, etc.).  I do the "grip and grin" polish thing well, but that is part of my "put on a shiny exterior" problem due to my internal self-worth (need for validation) type problems.


Unless agreed upon in writing (as an order) or ordered by the court, I will push back on my L about doing this going forward.

Due to all of this, I struggled with the concept of keeping the marital home.  I put it on the market and sold it in ~4.5 days.  Closing just got pushed up, so I will be moving into my other property in ~2 weeks.  I likely won't be able to do much to try and get the kids back into the marital home.  SHE is only working one day that overlaps with me, and the same nanny comes to her house.  My Sunday visit time is actually her work schedule (meaning I am her child care on Sundays).  She is only working 2x 8 hour shifts (from full time).



I have actually been very impressed with my T as it relates to divorce, custody, and court battles.  She is the one who got me to retain and file for separation when I did.  She has been doing this for well over 30 years.  That having been said, she isn't a L.  My T HAS shared with me what is in her notes that would concern her should they be requested via subpoena.  It calls out some of the dishonesty from me to my ex, which could paint me in a worse light (regardless of whether or not that dishonesty was for arguable legitimate purposes or not).

-----------

My ex just texted me that she had a flat tire.  She knows me well, I respond offering help, reminding her she has roadside assistance.  She is now ignoring me (yup, I just got whipped around again).  She knows this will stress me out (because I am a people pleaser, want to help type guy), and she is pushing that button among many others HARD.

BTW, I neglected to say THANK YOU for all of the thoughtful feedback and responses.  I appreciate it more than you know... .

Jmrsic,

Just going to say this: it sounds like you can afford a better lawyer. My gut says you are going to need one with more than 5 years experience.

Also, if you're a people pleaser like many of us are, don't stick with your current L just because you're afraid of hurting her feelings or your friends. Stick with her only if you think she is the right person for the job.

Just quickly - I wouldn't agree to any temporary order where you give up too much parenting time.

I stuck with my original lawyer too long too.  I have a new high powered lawyer who also has made mistakes, so I have found that many of them suck.  You can get second opinions from others sometimes for a low cost.  You can even go on avvo.com for free!

J:

Re:  The Potential Utility of a Deposition

I think LnL may really be onto something.  I am going to copy and repaste for your ease of access in sorting thru the wood between forest and trees.

Most us us are hit hard by lawyer bills, so we are faced with a quandary, how to find the money to get experienced representation.  I count myself fortunate that I didn't have to sell my home, declare bankruptcy, lose my job or any other lousy outcomes others have suffered.  But I did have to leverage everything.  For you that's apparently not an issue, not if you can pay that much support without even being ordered to.  "This is the 'craziest' case she has ever seen."  I think you could afford better, experience and strategy does count.  Bill Eddy has written several other books, I read High Conflict People in Legal Disputes where he frequently described the qualities we desperately need in a lawyer: experienced, assertive, problem-solving, keeping the case moving and on track, goal-oriented, not sacrificing too much in hopes on getting a quick 'deal'.  After all, your lawyer works for you, your lawyer is not your boss, his or her advice should guide and redirect, not dictate.  However, you do have to set limits no matter who the lawyer is of course.  You're the driver, knowing your destination, your lawyer is beside you using the map, legal background and training to get you there.

By seeking consultations at a minimum you will be ensuring that you don't overlook or miss strategies that will help your child long term.


So she uses a nanny?  And she's worked full time previously?  Then she has no excuse not to at least partially support herself and not just by a couple days a week.  Spousal support is typically during the divorce process.  Alimony generally follows state guidelines and the length of the marriage is a huge factor.  If married for just a few years then any alimony will likely be short term, often only long enough for the disadvantaged spouse to get a job or get training/education for a career.  It could include a couple years in a college, but not much more.  What I'm saying is that most courts these days don't assume the mother always get alimony so she can hand the child a few dollars for a school lunch and sit at home doing whatever while the kid is at school.

As I wrote before, beware of being too generous or you could risk setting a high living standard that you'll lock yourself into supporting as an obligation.


No overnights?  No way!  Do you know who never get overnights?  Generally, either people whose life or job doesn't have room for parenting or people who aren't trusted having overnights with the kids.  If you're not a candidate for supervised visitation or out of town 95% of the time for work then that's self-defeating.

Fair warning, bluntness here:  Only you can decide what to do but nearly everyone here has had the initial order set by the judge, the stbEx (soon-to-be ex) was just far too entitled to agree to anything even halfway reasonable.  I'm not saying seeking a deal should be halted, what I'm saying is that you consider putting prime focus on seeking at least the standard minimum time from the judge.  If a deal happens, fine, but if it doesn't then you'll be in line at court for resolution by the judge.  (If she actually uses a nanny, then be prepared to use that to deflate her claims every time she wails about needed to be the primary parent because she does everything for the child and you don't.)

Repeat:  Find out the standard or typical schedule in your area, if available.  That should be your minimum to accept, more or less.  Any offer substantively less is unreasonable and odds are you'd get a better order from the judge, the real authority.  However, I do like that clause, "with the "callout" in the agreement saying I disagree with the overall parenting time and that it should be revisited at permanent orders."  However, that while you're adamant about REASONABLE and NORMAL parenting time, not as a tradeoff.

That may make it easier to get a 'deal' now but the downside is it would cement into place a new 'normal' for your child, very minimal time with father.  Court puts a lot of weight on the parenting history and may be reluctant to make significant changes later, as my lawyer stated to me, for fear of 'upsetting' the child.  (I wish I could remember whether I retorted back, "What if my son is upset because the order isn't changed?"

Typical orders for the non-primary parent are for alternate weekends and one to two evenings or overnights in between.  Why alternate weekends?  It gives both parents a full weekend for various activities that take more than a few hours such as a couple days visiting the grandparents, out of town weekend trips, spending relaxed time at an amusement park, etc, knowing you don't have to rush right back after a few hours.  It also gives both parents a weekend off.   So getting brief time each weekend would not be a normal solution.  (However, if she wants it and it give you MORE parenting time then don't reject it, just don't sell yourself short on the rest of your parenting schedule.)

Disclaimer:  This is peer support, not a source of legal advice.  Sorry.

From following this board in the past, I picked up on a few generalities:

1.   Once the lawyers get involved, things really start to get screwed up.

2.  "collaborative" divorce model tends not to work because of the BPD in ability/unwillingness/inconsistency to abide by agreements.

3.   Psych Evals seem to carry a lot more weight in our heads (because we want the craziness to be exposed for all the world to see) yet, more often than not, their impact gets marginalized thru the process in which the evals are often administered by some mediocere run-of-the-mill evaluator whose going thru the motions, in a system that just grinds.

4.  Hence, my bias was toward the mediation mode., because at least those attorneys tend to "get it", and have some training, awareness, and competency as it relates to high conflict couples and pds.

5.  The BPD can thwart all of the above, as their sense of entitlement, manifested in all-or-nothing thinking, gets played out over and over again.  And when all else fails, creating a sense of chaos becomes their all too familiar base of dysregulated comfort, as others around them get spun around in the web of their whirlwind.

6.  As LNL suggested, alternative professional roles, to the traditional adversarial divorce process, such as "parenting coordinator" or guardian ad litum can provide more of a middle-of-the-road structured approach down the avenue you pursue, especially as it pertains to "keeping your eye on the ball".

7.  :)on't count on it, but remember, even BPDs are capable of "momentes of lucidity" in terms of grasping their own destructive impact upon others and themselves as a consequence of their mental-emotional wonkiness.

I'm hearing some concerns expressed about your L being up to the task.  Maybe.  Of course, you'll be the one most invested and likely the one working the hardest.  So conserve your energy and plod along prudently as you begin to build your case, and when the time comes to put your cards on the table.

I like the idea of deposition for precisely the reasons LNL cited.  Now, it may require lots of leg work in preparing your line of inquiry and getting them to open their mouths and expose whats inside their crazy heads, which if they are high functioning and manipulative can outplay the psych evaluator and testing, when you have a run-of-the mill court process going on.

But the legwork and prep may be key.  I dunno.  Forgive my verbosity.  If you very systematically, just like wrting a term paper and re-editing several times before submission, get either free or minimal consultations with at least 3 other Ls, spread like a week or weeks apart as you refine your line of thinking in how you'd like to see the deposition unfold.

YOu have the inside information.  YOu KNOW the BS and trauma drama.  From being on these boards, you have become more familiar and grounded in the type of whacked out dynamics the BPD has played out.  As you begin to recollect and name these atrocities , you can list them out and structure your deposition.  As you consult with other Ls, your recall of the specific entanglements will become clearer... .and then its a matter of having her talk about them.  If the deposition taking is carefully prepared, it can start as relatively mild and inquisitive.  And then when you start to get to What the hecks, you can sorta lay back and be a witness to whatever BS comes out of her mouth.  And then on to the next What the heck.  And then on to the next What the heck.  And so on... .

A note of caution:  My mantra inside my kaput marriage, is two wrongs don't make a right, and internally above all else i value peace and harmony... .which sometimes, paradoxically we have to fight for and get bloodied as a result.  As you begin to untangle the many layers upon layers, of a particular What the heck dynamic... .because it was / is part of your negative attachment, its very likely to be re-traumatizing and veeeerrrrryyy surreal.  Hence take care.  Establish a foundation of self-care as a routine in your habitual organizational behavior, which you'll eventually be able to model for your children.  I know my healing won't likely won't happen until my divorce is final... .and I have reorganized my life around a whole another set of energies.

Good luck, stay the course, thru the grind.  Hope this might help.

I can, if push comes to shove.  I do worry about hurting her feelings (or the personal friend who is related to her).  She is giving me a lot of time and energy, which makes it hard to switch.  With a status hearing Monday (~2 business days away), I don't know that changing before Monday makes sense.  Nothing firm should come out of the status conference anyway, right?



I had never visited this site.  I just posted there.  The one thing that I keep coming back to is that she has a vested interest in the outcome (more so than random L in the yellow pages).  She has put a lot of time, energy, and effort into this.

I am scared I will make the switch, spend the money, and get no better an outcome.  Between Ex and myself (her swapping and consulting six attorneys now, me swapping once -- which WAS the right move), I think we are already at $25k and we haven't even had a status hearing yet... .

Scary... .

I hope they will impute income.  Per state statute, they cannot for the primary caregiver with children under 30 months, and she reduced her hours AFTER I filed for legal separation.  They CAN impute for alimony/maintenance, but it is grey area.  There are also several "grey area" pre-marital/marital assets up for debate.  It isn't all about the money, but I don't want to get the short end of the stick either.  I already feel it is unfair that I worked my tail off to provide a great life, home, etc. and now I am going to end up with less time with my kids AND giving her more money as a result.

This is the part giving me heartburn.  I actually feel like she is doing ok with the rest.  I feel like she is trying to get compromises in place just to keep things moving and THAT will end up biting me.

FWIIW, I am selling my (dream) house.  I am cancelling extras, cutting back.  I am very fortunate to have a rental property with very very low holding costs that I am going to be able to get into.  I am probably selling some of my "toys", and may trade my car in for something cheap and reliable.  As a businessman, cash flow is king.  If I lost my job today, I would be in a WORLD of hurt.

I have given her a total of $4900 in the last 15 days (towards child support/maintenance).  The first $2900 was signed and agreed to as "pre-payment towards maintenance/child support" via attorneys.  The subsequent one is the one that worries me since my attorney recommended it, but there was nothing signed & agreed to.  I guess I could stop payment on it... .


She uses a nanny, AND had 3 half-days of "pre-school" for Mommy's mornings out... .(reduced to two now -- unilateral decision on her part).  She went back to work for four months full time @ $70k/yr.  Once she found out about the affair, one of the attorneys told her about the state statute about not imputing income on the "primary parent" when calculating child support (confirmed by my attorney and reading the statute myself), she cut her hours to 16/wk.

This won't be a permanent alimony/maintenance case.  We have only been married 3.5 years.  There is a pending bill that would extend maintenance, but it won't be in effect since our case was filed in July.  The temporary maintenance is what worries me, as it is EXACTLY what is causing her to drag this out.  From whenever the court begins the maintenance period through final orders, I will pay 40% of my income minus 50% of hers (open question as to what # they will use for her).  Bottom line, this is pushing child support and maintenance to the ~$5k/month range.

Even though state statute says they can't take more than 40% of my gross, this number is higher (and doesn't consider the monthly obligations).  Bottom line, I had to sell my dream house, and will be leveraging my credit cards as well.

She has more education and certifications than I do, and can make a VERY good living (in a field that is in short supply of qualified individuals).  I hope the judge sees that and doesn't give her  ~22 months (until my youngest is 30 months) of a free ride.


This is exactly my fear... .

Thanks, SOT.

-J

Interesting... .I've had one lawyer since 2006, going on 8 years.  Just this summer my lawyer told me way back in 2009 that a magistrate who handled our case (and bungled it) told my lawyer to withdraw, that he had become personally vested in the outcome.  My lawyer always said a lawyer who is emotionally tangled in the case can't stay objective and do a good job.  Yet he did stick with me.

At one point I did check into another lawyer, one recommended.  That lawyer was a cold fish and I never went back.  You are the one to decide whether you're comfortable with your representation.


We all fretted about that.  Use your best informed judgment.  Reserve for yourself the right to periodically reassess and reconsider all prior decisions, promises, etc.


Sadly, the court process is not about fairness.  It's a judicial system, not a justice system.

Oh, and don't volunteer to pay your wife's legal fees.  That would be an open invitation to rack up the fees and delay endlessly.  Yes, she probably filed seeking you to foot her bills, but the best outcome would be for her to pay her own bills out of the marital assets.  That's how it worked in my case.

She has definitely filed asking the courts to assign me the legal debt.  My hope is that if they award me more of the debt (especially with her multiple changes in attorneys) that I will also be able to keep more of the assets. 

That's not the same thing as being a good L.

I've had mechanics who put a lot of time, energy, and effort into my car, and still can't fix the problem. That doesn't make them good mechanics.

The fact your L is advising you to ask for no overnights even before you've begun to negotiate is worrisome. Right there, that says your L is trying your case like a normal divorce, thinking it's just a wackier kind of normal divorce. It isn't. Your ex has a disorder, and if your L understood the disorder, she would strategize around it. The achilles heel for BPD in court is entitlement, rage, and lying. There are tools to bring those pathologies to light. Your job is to aim high and use tools and time to flush those pathologies out. If you concede too early, you dig a bigger hole than the one you started with. That's what legal precedent is about -- human conflict is messy, and courts would rather look at stuff that preceded, especially if it's something you consented to. It makes it easier for them to make decisions. "Mr. Jmrsic consented to no overnights. Now he is asking for overnights, even though the kids are adapting and nothing has changed. Therefore, schedule stays the same."

It's possible that you can advocate for yourself and get your L to up her game, but your achilles heel (as a non fresh out of an abusive marriage) is likely a combination of passivity and guilt. This may be the hardest thing you do in your life, and you need to bring your A game. And lots of us don't have an A game fresh out of the r/s.

She just called me, I answered... .



She wanted to know if I was busy and could talk.  I told her I was a conf call (you could hear my other phone on speaker).  She was not callous, but rather sounded like she wanted to talk with me... .

I am afraid today is recycle [attempt] day... .

<sigh>   At a minimum, I know a tongue lashing is expected.  I am going to record the call using my work phone as a .wav file.  We are in a one-party state, so totally legal. 

Keep it simple.  Keep your cards close to the chest.  Write out 1 or 3 meaningful sentences that have a neutral intent which shows her respect.  NOTHING ELSE.  Memorize.  Repeat.  Keep it simple.  Keep your cards close to the chest.  Keep going to back to the 1, 2, 3 meaninful sentences with neutral intent.  Over and over again.

If she tries to seduce you, apologizes, or you start to get weak in the knees... .look down and away with an "aw shucks... .", and slowy shake your head back and forth as if nonverbally communicating "nada" "nope"... .and say "I dunno... ." then go back to the 1,2,3 meaningful neutral sentences.

Above all else... .practice your para-linguistics, body language... .And very much ACT and PORTRAY urself as a simple, down to earth, caring person.  Don't do the eye gaze, look slightly askance.  YOUR TONE OF VOICE keep it soft, neutral, gentle, disarming. If she switches to nasty... .have your exit game plan in place and exit, respectfully... .bet get the F out of the entrapment.  YOu will feel better about exercising this type of discipline.

You are disengaging from her.  Don't worry, the hellfire will come again... .as is the pattern.  Adhere to your role.

IN the background, continue to work ur butt off.  In the interactions, soft and gentle.  If she gets nasty-exit calmly, give a chance to calm down a bit and revisit the conversation later.  thank you, good-bye.  walk softly... .

IMO

Am I a complete idiot for even going over there?  There are probably 100 things that could go wrong and I am struggling to come up with any that can go right (aside from getting some time with my kids).  I guess I will also see where her cards are on the table.

She made it VERY clear on the phone that there is no chance for her and I, that I had the most egregious affair ever, and that it is unforgivable... .

Still debating taking in my voice recorder just so I can rebut any false accusations... .

-J

Um, yeah. Take your voice recorder.

I took it, never turned it on.  It got a bit hairy at the end, but nothing too terrible.  The worst thing I said was that I had met with several attorneys and what my ex is telling me doesn't jive with what I am being told.  I also said that if we can't agree, then I guess a judge will have to decide.  I did show my cards in that I said I want overnights with my oldest son, but that is no surprise as my attorney communicated that to hers today (and ex brought it up).  She has an elaborate, well-prepared, "thorough" parenting plan that she has put together that they plan to present to me where I will get ZERO overnights until my YOUNGEST (8mo) is 3yo... .  This would mean my oldest would be almost 5 before he would spend the night at my house.  She said (and made quite a few cracks about how incompetent my attorney was) that her attorney has assured her that courts DO NOT split children this close in age (18mo) and that no overnights will occur until the youngest reaches the appropriate age.  She then said she wanted permanent maintenance until my youngest was three.  I have already posted on Avvo, and will talk with my attorney tomorrow.  I did tell her if she keeps telling me my attorney is incompetent, then perhaps I should go hire one of the best.  Probably not something I should have said, but she was pushing all of my buttons.

They want to present this "elaborate" proposal to then demonstrate to the judge that they "tried in good faith" and that I am "unreasonable and unwilling to negotiate".

If anything, at least I got to see her hand tonight... .  I don't think anything was said that materially hurts me (A LOT was said that emotionally hurts me).

I posted three separate questions on Avvo tonight.  If anything significantly differs from what my attorney is telling me, I may switch.  The one thing that gives me heartburn is how much of my attorney's communication to my ex's attorney is shared with my ex.  She is quoting things and citing things.  I am not getting that same level of transparency, which makes me wonder if my attorney is sparing me the details, dealing with it for me, or if she is getting flustered (which is what my ex said tonight -- that they challenged her to find a single precedent on splitting the children on overnights and she couldn't find one).

Frustrated,

J

What a crock.  Did I just write that?  {Sigh}  I'm going to have to step away before I get my hands smacked for overreacting.

What she is claiming is so so so incredible, yet not surprising at all, this is typical BPD/NPD entitlement and dictatorial control.  Maybe there are courts in the country that would grant her an order like that but I don't know where they are.  Virtually all courts would not deny overnight visits unless there was basis such as abuse, neglect or endangerment.  I can think of only one possible reason overnights might be restricted and that's if she makes allegations and the court wants to find out first from the local children's services agency just how Dangerous you are.  Yikes, don't tell her that, don't give her any ideas.  Everything she said/offered was totally unreasonable, mere bread crumbs.  My ex had similar entitled perceptions.  Court brushed them aside.  Always remember, the real authority is the Judge, not your children's mother.

She is speaking from her position of perceived power and control, setting highly unreasonable, even onerous, terms.  Sorry, but you are not powerless or timid father, or you shouldn't be, no matter how much she has convinced you otherwise.

Yes, the court is generally very reluctant to split the children, but just because your younger child is young is no reason to virtually block your parenting for the next two to three years.  Were their offers in writing?  Get it in writing so you have something to hand to the judge to show how unreasonable their offers were, not your response.  As I said, barring substantiated allegations I can't imagine the judge setting a temp order as drastic and obstructive as what she is dictating.

Has anyone been able to tell you what typical temporary orders are in your local area?  Be prepared to fight for at least that much when you go before the judge.  Yes, courts prefer deals, they believe it reduces the conflict, quite true with reasonably normal people, but news flash she's not reasonably normal and so most likely the judge will have to make an order.  (Be prepared that her lawyer will probably make one final but slightly better offer just before you walk into the courtroom on hearing day.  The slight improvement may sound like angels playing harps but the judge is still likely to order better terms than even that last ditch offer.)

Still, I do suggest you record any private contact with her.  Even if nothing happened, she could still make allegations and they'd have to respond as though they might be true.  It hard to prove you didn't do something.  And what if she hurts herself and then claims you did it?  Even if it seems ridiculous, record just in case.  If she doesn't make allegations then a few months from now you can discard them.  But for now see recordings as a special form of insurance, your Stay Out Of Jail Free card, hopefully never needed.

Jmrsic,

Do you understand why you went over there?

I'm still trying to figure that out.  I think I was naïve enough that she might actually have something worth entertaining, And she had appealed to my "what is best for the kids" side.

Her offers include things like joint holidays and things of that nature.  A judge will obviously split those and rotate them.

A part of me wanted to see the boys, and frankly I miss her too (the old her, or rather what I wanted her to be).  She was super sweet for two hours.  That time with my boys was well worth it.  Once they were in bed, everything changed... .

Interestingly enough it was the first time she had worn her wedding ring and engagement ring in two months... . 

FD,

I guess I should share the detail of her "generous" offer.  I must say, between my guilt due to my choices and her absolute confidence in the outcome, I have re-read these 100 times and asked myself if I could live with it for a few years... .

2 dinner dates (i.e. 4-8p) per week

One weekend day (10 hours) to correspond with her work shift (free daycare for her)

A floating breakfast or lunch (where she would bring them to me for an hour or so) every two weeks

One additional four hour "floating" block once per month

No overnights or overnight consideration until s8mo is 3yo.

I guess I worry about getting in there and the judge:

a) Deciding not to split the children until my youngest is 30 months.  With a 28 (almost 29) month old and an 8 month old, this one concerns me.

b) getting less time than the ~18 hours per week she is proposing above

c) It looking like she tried to come up with some super fair and reasonable offer and I am the jerk who just wants more

She emailed me last night:

"Are you going to entertain my offer? If not, then I will stop my attorney from wasting time, energy and money drafting it tomorrow."

I guess that would help with my concerns about looking like a jerk for not accepting her offer :).

I will talk with my L today.  Two of my posts were responded two on Avvo.  I am toast on the financial front.  She has ZERO duty to work until my youngest is 30 months.  Period.  No ifs, ands, or buts.  This has been consistent across multiple Ls and my L was HOPING to argue that she was working and quit in bad faith.  One of the responders on Avvo was a former judge.

The other response on Avvo is why this whole process sucks, and why I would consider accepting an offer. 

An offer like this = no longer an unknown.

The other response indicated that they have seen the full spectrum of very minimal supervised visitation all the way through splitting the children altogether (parent A gets one, parent B gets the other).  He basically said, no way to know what that judge will say; he has extreme latitude.

WAY too much is "iffy" and undefined in this proposal.  She retains all control.  She will be able to interfere with your life and schedule at her whim. 

What value(s) are you placing on your ability to parent your children?  That is important, because it becomes your guiding principles as you move through this.

For example, "I have been an involved, caring and loving father since my children were born, and I am fully capable of continuing to parent them in this way.  My children need this for their well-being and development.  This means I need consistent, scheduled, extended time with them on a defined and regular basis.  I can show in multiple ways that I can and will proivde age-appropriate care for them in the same way I have done since their births."

Then proivde a parenting plan that demonstrates these values and principles.  When you are challenged, return to your values and guidling principles.

Could her unspoken objective (including hammering you with the most onerous scenarios of your future should you proceed to divorce) be to bring you back into the marriage?

Men posting on forums like this one sometimes mention scenarios where their mentally unhealthy wives initiate court actions against them (including criminal abuse cases) with the firm expectation that the man will return to the relationship (more subjugated than ever). If he fights in court and escapes the woman's control, she is then stunned into begging him to return. I wonder if your wife could be that woman and if, consequently, you need to be really, really sure now about what you want . . .

Excellent response by gagrl, especially about your urgent need to ensure the court knows your goal to be an involved parent, not sidelined as a mere occasional visitor.  Same for KateCat, ponder what was ex trying to do, lure you back or confuse you to keep dictating your parenting?

Yes, family court judges have judicial discretion, flexibility in their decisions.  My belief is that's one reason why judges want to keep the submitted information to the court to a minimum, in my case the judge kept defaulting to the Mother largely because there was little presented that contradicted his initial default preference for Mother or revealed the extent of Mother's obstruction.  I recall one time I went to a hearing with ten or eleven issues on my list and only about three even got discussed, much less resolved. :'(


That is the biggest glaring problem here. The other of course is the very reduced contact.  In short, everything.

Surely more than 99% of judges (my non-scientific estimate) would shoot her proposal down.  Even if you don't get what you ask the judge for, it can't be worse than the crumbs she's dictating.  Too often it seems that being 'reasonable' in our requests at court works against us.  How so?  As an example, if Ex wants 99% time and you ask for the typical non-primary parent schedule of about 15%-25%, there is a risk the judge could decide to "split the difference", giving you both less than you sought.  With that awareness, there's no harm in asking for more, such as 50%.  It's likely you won't get that, at least not at the start, so don't fret that you're not prepared for that much time or that asking for equal time is 'unfair' to your entitled ex.  Then if the judge does split the difference you'd be at the typical 15%-25% after all.  See?  She's won't be punished for seeking more time than she ought to get and neither will you.

Here's the guideline for children under 3 that was in effect in my county when my last order was made.  (Unfortunately a new schedule posted a year ago has more brief "visits" and fewer "overnights" - not sure why - but there are still overnights.)

Over the course of two weeks:

Week A, Tuesday  - Overnight

Week A, Friday     - Overnight (pick up and begin weekend)

Week A, Saturday - Overnight

Week A, Sunday   - Day visit   (end weekend and return)

Week B, Thursday - Overnight

In short, that's a normal alternate weekend and two overnights in between.  In all, that's FOUR overnights every two weeks.  I believe the frequent visits, more frequent then for older children, are in recognition that a baby or toddler's memories are shorter and therefore the separated periods are kept shorter.

She may not HAVE to work but you can still encourage her to work or at least not make it easier for her to avoid work, you're not a bad person for encouraging it.  For example, even though she doesn't have to work for a couple years you could encourage her to meanwhile get job training or get a 2 year degree (within 2 years, not stretched out across many years) so that when the kids over over 2.5 years old and she DOES have to work then she'll already be qualified for a career of some sort.  Yeah, as if she would ever voluntarily agree to plan ahead and do what makes sense... .

Footnote:  There is a real possibility that she will enjoy not having to work outside her home and decide she should find a new guy and pop a few more babies out so she always has a baby or toddler in the house.  That's her choice, nothing you can do about her subsequent relationship choices.  All you can do is try your best to get her off your back financially as quickly as possible.  Child support would continue after the youngest is 2.5 years old but at least the spousal support or alimony would end then.  (Beware of having a 1-2 year divorce as is typical around here and then you begin short term alimony.  Since it was not a long marriage, try to keep alimony limited to age 2.5 of your youngest.)  And don't let her con you into one last fling and then you have another baby on the way.  It's complicated enough as it is without a third child to reset the age issue!

I am getting snipped... .Then we can try for that third child as much as she wants (added for comic relief).

I found an attorney on avvo that not only responded to my question, but suggested I read splitting... .  I am going to go to the initial status conference on Monday with my current L, but this guy's understanding of BPD/NPD and the fact that he listened to me and recommended that book already makes me think he "gets it" more than the average L.  I tried to lend splitting to my L and she isn't interested... .;/

I do think that the courts are going to award more than she is tossing at me by way of breadcrumbs, so it looks like we are going that route.

-J

Do consider her offers and respond politely.  You do want to show the court you're trying to be reasonable as far as your own actions and negotiations.

If you do make an offer to her, set a time limit so the offer expires before you go to court.  But since she's so far off the beaten path thus far, I don't know if even that is wise, you could make a better offer - better than hers - back to her but it could still be a lousy deal for you.

Don't be intimidated by her.  If you show that you are involved and loving, you deserve much more than what she is offering. 

Son's soccer tomorrow cancelled due to weather.

I sent her this:

Since soccer was cancelled, I would like to take s2.5 to breakfast tomorrow.  Can he and I hang out from 7:30 to 8:30 or 9a?  We will just follow our former routine of chocolate milk/coffee, breakfast burritos/potatoes, and looking for trains. 

INSTANT no, wouldn't respond when I asked if there was any reason why... . 

This is what you are up against.  It is how they do it.  Masterfully, experts.  And then comes the chaos.



GET REAL WITH YOUR SELF.  Know your focus.  Get clear.  Do the inner work. Believe in yourself.

Dream it.  Pray it.  Visualize it.  Become that. Practice that.  Ask God for help if u need to.   Don't get fooled by the BS that gets thrown on you.

jm

Have you obtained a copy of the book "splitting" yet, as suggested by FD?

My local library even had a copy of it.  It does provide a framework for dealing with some of the dynamics involved.  Live and learn... .

Has you lawyer recommended a GAL? We had one assigned from the beginning. My lawyer saw clearly what I was up against. Our GAL wrote our parenting plan. We both sought sole custody (ask for the moon... .) and we ended up with 50/50.

I'd be a little concerned that your lawyer refused to read Splitting... .why? She'd probably have to charge you for the time it takes to read it, but it will help in your case and many more in her future. I, unfortunately, didn't read it until after the divorce. It would've been invaluable. But the post divorce stuff in the book still applies. And with a BPD/NPD there will always be post divorce issues.

I laughed when I read your wife's comments about your lawyer. My uNPDexH would say the same type of crap... .trying to make us feel unsure of ourselves, and our representation. My exH even told me once that his lawyer "was so sure of the outcome (in his favor, of course) that he set a "cap" for his charges". My lawyer is still laughing over that one! Remember, they are liars. They will use anything and everything to keep us off guard.

Good luck, especially with getting all the time possible with your sons.

I know what you mean.  I think that may symbolize the push-pull, tugging back and forth.  One month after she left and retained an atty, and then 2 weeks after her atty "mistakenly" filled... .but she wouldn't retract... .she texted me pictures of her wearing her "beautiful ring".



I her where she is coming from.

You got some great feedback.  If an atty wants to charge me for reading a book for the first time (splitting), I'd want a different atty.  I'd prefer an atty who has a genuine professional growth orientation or I'd want one a little bit ahead of the curve (has read the book, has some familiarity).  I don't like the vibe as it pertains to their lack of transparency in contrast to your atty's approach because it adds another layer of frustration.  Bpds are great at indirectly being around further lack of harmony between others.  In fact, extending the "splitting" that finds other people supposedly on the same page, splitting, as oppossed to unified.




-----------------

And then I shudder to think, of yet another flippity-flop, push-pull tugging back and forth dynamic of far greater magnitude, volatility, significance and mind numbing paralysis:


Keep your eye on the ball J.  Keep steady.  I like how you were able to contact an atty with some background who is familiar in splitting and actually LISTENED to you. And as a male, he may have a particular sensitivity to fathers in divorce court.  Get rest.  Eat well.  Get some exercise if you can.  And give yourself a pat on the back from all of us.  Keep asking the great questions and getting informed feedback.  Keep up the good work as it pertains to the grind.

"Good luck, especially with getting all the time possible with your sons". 

Thanks all.  I am 75% sure I am switching Ls.  Initial status conference being Monday, I am not going to try to get a new L up to speed by then (obviously), and I DO want this to start moving forward.  The only things that the ISC can yield here:

Dates for temp & perm orders

child or psych evals

Emergency order requestss (domestic violence, documented substance issues, egregious parental alienation)

I have been told by every L that this is more of a formality to ensure we have our financials in order, etc.  I am looking at it as a job interview.  If my L looks like she knows her stuff and I walk out of there pleasantly surprised, then maybe I stay.  Otherwise, I have that consult scheduled. 

Tomorrow will suck.  Weather here is icky, and I don't get to have soccer (or other alternatives I suggested) with my boy.  I spent the last two hours putting together to-do lists to keep me busy.  I am also reading splitting :).

If you had alternate weekends and this wasn't your weekend, she'd be within her rights to say no.  As I understand the current situation, so far you do get, or have been offered, a slice of each weekend?  This is what has to end, you asking and her responding in arbitrary dictator mode.  A deal will only solidify her control, IMO only a judge can get past her sense that you're a parent only at her conditional whims.

There's a conference in a couple days?  I would not go in prepared to beg and plead with her.  It doesn't make sense to beg and plead for crumbs.  Determine a nice schedule for you and both children.  Did you find out what is considered a reasonable schedule for a minority time parent in your area?  That was priority one this week.  I've already posted a typical example published in my area.  Your call but I'd suggest not even entertaining anything less.  Your lawyer can look at her lawyer and state, "You know this is a typical schedule.  Tell your client this is a typical and reasonable schedule and that her prior offers, as much as we appreciate her making offers, were unreasonable and if you don't accept this schedule then we'll see what the judge orders.  This offer is made in hopes we can both reduce the conflict and reduce the costs of the divorce, if not accepted it will be withdrawn and my client will seek an even more appropriate schedule based on the fact that your client cannot reasonably share the parenting of the children and that until now she has been obstructing his reasonable parenting."

Is that 'pie in the sky' dreaming, me wishing my lawyer had been a bit more assertive and less inclined to talk nice and seek deals?  Maybe so.  Your call.

If it ends up being mostly about the financials, beware of gifting too much.  Odds are she will keep coming back for more if she sees you willing to negotiate.  You think give and take.  PwBPD/NPD see these sessions as ways to get and the other to give.  That's some skewed perception of negotiation.  Even if she agrees to something reasonable now, even that is iffy, she's probably thinking that later on she can get keep getting a little more each time she makes a new demand.

Generally it's good to start with the easiest issues.  So likely custody is left to last and likely it will be an impasse.  Remember, you don't have to accept a bad deal.  It's always possible that the court will order lousy terms and conditions and there's little you can do about that.  But you can always walk away from predictably bad offers.  If you feel you have to settle on Monday, then you are already at great disadvantage.  If you are uncomfortable with any proposed deal, take a few days to ponder it, you have that right.  I've learned the hard way that if I'm uncomfortable when pressured to buy something, I'll later regret it.

A Guardian ad Litem (GAL) for your children is probably a wise step, but try to get a perceptive one.  You have a lawyer, your wife has a lawyer, each lawyer though is paid to represent their client, nothing more.  So yes your children would likely benefit from having someone represent them.

I don't know what benefit a Psych Eval is in your area, in mine it didn't mean much.  In any case they often don't indicate how the children would be affected in the years to come.  That's why a Custody Evaluation is so crucial, it's an in depth look at the parents as well as their parenting.  It's especially important to get an unbiased, experienced and perceptive professional.

The initial status conference is tomorrow afternoon.  I have the boys today.  Rainy day, so we are playing inside.  My oldest is acting out quite a bit .

I have been able to maintain MINIMAL dialogue with her around the boys (e.g. what time did s8months eat last, etc.).

Still, challenging. 

I am also trying to get the house packed (not working on that today since I have the boys -- I likely won't post anymore until tonight unless something happens).

Moving to 1000sqft is going to be interesting for me.  I guess it is good she took almost everything.  On a positive note, s2.5 wanted to ride his bike (pouring rain outside).  Main floor is almost entirely empty and hardwoods with three separate loops :).  We are riding inside, LOL.

I moved into a small apartment with S12 (he was 9 at the time). We didn't have much furniture, and for a while things were so different and we both really got into it. We had "picnics" on the floor, built forts everywhere, watched movies from the futon. It felt like a big slumber party there for a while. S12 still talks about our 1.5 years there with nostalgia.

Just discovering what your own, real r/s with your kids is like, without your pwBPD there -- that's the best gift I ever received. I hope the same happens for you.

Thank you for that.  I think that's what I needed today.

J

I think it's sweet that you wanted to hang out and look for trains.  I'm a big train fan.  Hang in there.  Your son needs you in his life!   :)

So initial status conference.  She is willing to accept the compromise on maintenance and child support, but still no overnights.  I tell my L that we need to let the judge decide then.  We go in for the status conference, and ex says she is still nursing which is why no overnights.  The clerk says "you are still nursing the s2.5?" she says no.  They fast track the temp orders hearing for the 4th.  The dockets are fairly clear, so my L hopes we get permanent orders by end of Nov.  New bill would hurt me on long-term maintenance apparently if this draws out past Jan 1.  I still am not willing to "give in" on my parenting time & overnights just to save a little money.  That, and I am following the advice here in that the judge likely won't do any worse than her "generous" offer.

She was a royal PITA at my son's swim practice this afternoon, and keeps throwing random jabs ALL THE TIME.

Tomorrow is her birthday.  I am trying to decide if I even acknowledge it (e.g. happy bday text).

Thoughts?

-J

Forgot to mention, it was specifically called out for the 1hr temp orders hearing that the points of contention are maintenance, child support, and overnights.  We have already documented that we are not far off on the $$ items.  When the clerk clarified overnights for the older son, she did it with a sort of "seriously" undertone that even my stbx caught.  She left the room in tears.

My L feels like we simply cannot do worse than what she is offering, and it sounds like stbx might be starting to see it too... .

To the judge, your lawyer, her lawyer, her, etc:  "Nursing?  That's great!  Just express your milk (as many working and separated mothers do), refrigerate it and send along the bottles of milk so I can feed it to our child while with me."

I am an advocate for breastfeeding but come on, get real.  She sees nursing as her ace in the hole, her "gotcha!"  You need to show that millions of working mothers do that all the time, day in, day out.  It's called expressing the milk.  There are even breast pumps sold for that very purpose.  Even if she claims "it won't work for me!" she can still breastfeed when your near-toddler is with her and you can bottle feed when the children are with you.  No. Big. Deal.  Her claims are a bunch of hooey and the sole purpose is to obstruct your parenting, not for the children.  How can I say that?  Or else she would be proactively enabling your parenting at other times.

There is an entire breast pump and supplies industry that exists for this very reason.  Hmm... .stay silent with her concerning this issue for now, then at the hearing when she claims she simply has to breast feed all the time day and night, then pull out a breast pump starter box (ta da!) and say you have the solution, you'll provide her with it so there is no reason left to even potentially restrict your parenting time.  That should not only deflate her claim but also raise an eyebrow with the judge when the judge perceives you're a Problem Solver.  (However don't open the package in case it is refused and gets returned.)

I still strongly resist the idea that the children get separated.  There is no "need" for separation.  (Children 3 and over may have fewer visits but that may not mean it is basis to totally disconnect your parenting of each child into separate visits.

Keep in touch with that other lawyer, his experienced impressions, strategies and advice will likely help your case.

FYI -

She was pumping and working full-time (swing shifts) four nights a week.  I would put the kids down AND get them up due to her arriving home between 11p and 2a.

Do I send her a Happy Birthday txt?

I wouldn't.  You're trying to establish emotional distance for your own healing and growth.  I'd not engage with her about anything unless it had to do with finances or the kids.

This is one of those cases... .Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  It's an emotional trigger, more for her than for you, and it seldom ends well with someone whose emotions are easily triggered.  So just best to set it aside as unworkable and see it as one small step toward distancing yourself and setting your own boundaries.  It's possible she contacts you nicely, if so you can respond positively without getting enmeshed.  It's another situation where you can't Win, not if she won't allow it.

There's your answer... .she was doing it before for her work, so she can do it again for your parenting time.   Of course she won't volunteer that in court so you'll have to be sure it gets mentioned and highlighted.  Remember, she's counting on swaying the court with emotional claims of Mother Has To Nurse The Hungry Little Babies.  You have to combat her emotional claims with facts.  She's not required to tell the whole truth, that's your obligation and challenge.  Don't expect the court to do your work for you, you need to be proactive and assertive yet respectful to the court.

One thing to remember, I've gotten the impression in my cases and hearing about others that the court tries to deal with as few issues and requests as possible.  That's not good in our high conflict cases.  In my initial hearing I never spoke, per lawyer's advice.  I look back and realize it's because he didn't want me to say something that would sabotage my own case.  However, in our cases we have to get at least some information out there before the court.  I recall one hearing I arrived with a list of 11 items to fix.  We only addressed about 3 of them.  It was so frustrating especially considering that I had grouped them by topic and not by priority.  So do make a list, make sure you have at least one copy in priority order.  Give a copy to your lawyer so there's no confusion about your priorities, your arguments to support you and expose your wife's claims.  Your lawyer will have her own priorities but maybe she'll take note of yours.

ForeverDad:

For a 1hr temporary hours hearing (primarily for child support, temporary maintenance, and parenting time), what should my agenda look like?

Obviously the three aforementioned items.  What else should I try and get addressed during temporary orders?

One thing missing from my order was vacation time, now often called extended time.  My temp order didn't specifically mention vacations, probably because a temp order isn't expected to last long.  No surprise around here, mine lasted two years.  Fortunately the court had a guideline schedule but I was unclear whether it applied in temp orders.  My lawyer said to go on vacation anyway, so I gave her notice of a two week vacation.  Naturally, when I picked son up for my weekend which started the vacation she said "No, I don't give permission, return My Son after the weekend."  I replied, "It's a notice not a request."

Well, I was a few states away when my police called stating ex wanted Her Son back.  I said we're on vacation.  He said okay.  I thought that was that.  Oh, no, it wasn't.  She tried to get an Amber Alert on me.  Later I read the deputy sheriff's report, he worded it well when he told her "it didn't meet the criteria of Amber Alert".  So he passed the blame onto the criteria.  Smart guy.

Well, my lawyer later called me and said she was creating a fuss and would I please call her and let her talk to son every few days?  (Strange, she wasn't even trying to call, I had to call her.  She just wanted an excuse to complain.)  After I got back home my lawyer eventually told me she had raised a ruckus and forced a sheriff's investigation so he promised to have son call her every so often.  Months later I found out that she had filed a formal grievance against the sheriff's investigator and that riled those feathers.

So my advice is to get some of the longer term clauses included in the temp order or else the conflict will continue.  In my case, the court refused/declined to edit the temp order during the entire time.  Even when the initial Custody Evaluator report recommended my ex immediately lose her temp custody, all the judge did was move us on to the next step in the divorce process.

Also, my ex tried to block my access to our child's records.  Before the temp order was over, she had raged at the pediatrician's staff and the doctor had notified her they would "withdraw their services" for our son.  I wasn't notified officially since I didn't have temp custody.  I got a subtle hint that I ought to request their records and that's when I learned of her raging at them.

Also, she started him in therapy and listed me as a suspected child abuser.  So for a year they wouldn't talk to me or release records to me since I was "likely to endanger the health or life of the patient or others".  When a court report a year later showed I wasn't the twisted evil person I was claimed to be - it recommended I get more parenting time - they must have told her they would have to release the files and she promptly changed tunes and said she was fearful of what I might do if I saw what she had input to them.  So then I had to deal with HIPAA privacy claims.  Finally I convinced the court I needed a special court order to see son's records - even though access was already permitted in the temp order pursuant to the state's statutory rules - and I immediately got them.

Frankly, no matter how well you are able to craft a temporary order or even a final order, a disordered and obstructive parent can still reinterpret the orders to suit his/her perceptions and entitlement.  But at least you can try to prevent some of the common tactics.

Thanks.   Concerned a bit today as ex's attorney is proposing to my attorney that we stipulate to the child support and maintenance numbers.  I think the numbers are too high, and am concerned as we are RIGHT on the edge of that bill that could force me to pay maintenance for 18 months (vs. zero for a 3.5yr marriage).

I told my L that if we consider that, I want to understand the benefits (if any) from her perspective.  We are meeting with the judge in 2.5 weeks.  Why would we stipulate to this now?  It isn't likely going to be WORSE... .  I also said if we do go this route, I want to include all of the proposed temp orders language that we tried to push through last time (stbxU-BPDNPD refused to sign the proposal she initiated). 

I don't know why we would stipulate to any dollar amount now when it is the opposing atty who is pushing for it and we will be in court in 2.5 weeks... .

My favorite... .I get a copy of a bill from when she unilaterally took s2.5 to the doc.  I scan and email it to her.  She tells me to pay it. 

I just sent a copy to my L.  If I am essentially paying her living expenses, child support, alimony, etc., why then am I also paying the bills that she should be paying as primary care giver (with the money I am paying to enable her role as primary care giver)... .<sigh>

Because she tells you to pay it... .and she has every reason to believe you will pay it.

Agreeing to nearly everything the spouse demands doesn't sound like a strategy.

I will put "who pays what" on my open issues discussion for temp orders... .

This might be a good thread to start --

In my order, it says that S12 is on my insurance. But N/BPDx pays 75% of all medical/dental not covered by insurance. Which means collecting money from him, and pwBPD aren't exactly known for sticking to the rules. So I haven't seen a penny.

You may want to suggest Our Family Wizard. I think there is a way to track expenses like this. That way, if she owes you money, and you end up back in court, you have excellent documentation that she is off doing her own thing, despite what you two agree to in the order.

<sigh> tough day.  She is fighting me on the house sale crap, making it difficult.  She was the one who wanted it sold, but this is a way to add stress for me, so now she is dragging her feet at critical times.

Also, some things that were important to me (minor things from my grandfather) seem to have disappeared when she moved out.  She claimed she didn't take them.  Again, another way to hurt me.  I have requested things back, but I am sure I won't get anything back.  She claims to have no idea what I am talking about.

I tried to talk to my son to say goodnight (via phone), and "he didn't want to talk with me".

I am packing & throwing things out, one room at a time.  I have about 1.5 weeks until I move out.  Slow, painful, annoying, frustrating process.  I did get everything "sealed up" that was bringing memories to the surface (at least until I find more stuff as I pack).

All around crappy day .

My heart goes out to you.  Easy does it... .I know how they make it difficult.  My mind is reeling a bit as I'm reflecting on multiple chains of unnessary difficulty i endured without knowing what i know now.

Your writing remains crisp and clear.  Remember, self-care, rest, and one day at a time.  That you have the courage and heart to take on "one room at a time" with associated slow, painful, annoying, frustrating processes... .I respect very much. 

*mod*

Locking up the thread - it's reached the four page limit.

Please feel free to start another one. :)