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After a few days of very excellent advice from members on this board, I was able to start to articulate my/our family values.  I put these down into written form so that my husband would have something with him as he went to meet my BPDSD for dinner tonight.

She "ran away" last week to live with her mother, citing complaints that she isn't loved enough in this house.  We are in the "black" at this time.  To his great credit, my husband didn't chase after her. He just told her that it was her decision and he loved her.  I believe that she was genuinely shocked that he wasn't angry or begging her to come back. 

I don't know how their conversation is going, but I do know that he was able to go to her expressing our values of truthfulness, respect and health.  She may not like any of the consequences of pushing those boundaries, but I can tell you I feel so much better having been able to articulate them and put them down on paper.

So thank you everyone who sent suggestions and links to resources - You made a difference at least in this family. 

Hi, Bonus mom   

You will have to tell us how your husband's meeting with your SD turns out! It's so cool when members here take what they've learned on this site and apply it to their lives and relationships! I'm so happy that you are feeling better about things... .

I truly hope things look up for you and your husband. Can't wait to hear how his meeting turned out... .just keep in mind that Rome wasn't built in a day, so if it was a bit difficult for him to navigate, or if she didn't react the way he'd wanted her to, don't give up. Sometimes we have to be thankful for tiny little changes, and just be satisfied with that. Don't forget to give us an update when you can!

Hi Bonus,

It's good to have a plan eh? It's good to feel the relief of knowing better what to do. If it's not too presumptuous to say it, I am proud of you both.   I hope that the meeting improves the situation for you and your dh and your dsd.

Often the initial response to the establishment of boundaries is a powerful reaction. I like to think of it as a roller coater ride. But probably it's best described as two steps forward and one step back. I think this is an important step in establishing a sound basis for a healthy relationship with your dsd.

Warning though - be prepared for much more learning   these techniques seem deceptively easy, I think though that there is so much more to them than meets the eye. I recommend you continue the search for info to inform yourself and ask questions of us here (some of us here like nothing better than to tell others what to do    )

I am eagerly awaiting your news of how it went.

cheers,

Vivek    

I'm happy and relieved to report that my husband's meeting with his daughter went well - from a parent/family point of view, anyway. There was a little bit of drama, some tears, and some grumpy silence from her. She was on the defensive, and tried to pull him into arguments, but I think he handled it fairly well.

He kept himself, and therefore us, protected, by NOT allowing circular conversations and calmly expressing our values and boundaries.  This is the format we used (and we wrote them down and gave them to her to keep):

If you ______, we will share our feelings about this with you. If you continue to hit_____, we will end the conversation and walk away/seek professional help/not speak again etc. for (insert timeframe here) to take care of ourselves.

She was seeking validation - he didn't provide much, he's even newer at this than me, but he did validate the one issue she kept trying to argue - "you didn't tell me you were going away" - which was true, although of course not a new subject.  It goes like this - she ignores us, doesn't tell us her work schedule, therefore misses out on fun stuff we do.  Which is our fault lol.  Because we should mind read :)

But, he did acknowledge it could be handled better by both sides.  That one validation seem to calm her right down.

I can recognize now that she really was desperately trying to get him to acknowledge how hurt she is by everything she believes has happened to her.  She seems to be genuinely puzzled, and therefore hurt, by the fact that we did not chase her or ask her to come back to live with us.  So from her point of view, I imagine that she felt that it didn't go well at all, because she didn't get anything really that she needed at the meeting. 

I am sorry to report, though, that her mother told her she didn't want SD to be living with her full-time.  Her mother hasn't been a particularly useful adult in this situation - But she has her own BPD issues so I understand them, but SD doesn't and can't understand. That does stir up a little more empathy in my heart for my SD's situation.

We did let her know that one of our requirements for her to be a live-in member of this family again is that she would have to be seeing a DBT therapist at least until she's 18 when she'll be making decisions for herself about treatment. Since she made absolutely no comment about that requirement whatsoever, this looks like it will be a "calm before the storm" type of issue.   She's still at the point where treatment totally freaks her out, because if she's "better" then who is she? Her "story" relies on her being ill and persecuted and treated poorly by us or her mom. 

So overall, the meeting was good for us - my marriage stays solid because we are together in this, thank goodness.  Our home life has had minimal disruption, and our sons benefit from way less drama now she isn't living here.  And we have a much clearer picture of our daughter's needs, no matter what the truth is behind those needs. Will she agreed to therapy? That's a tough one.  I think as long as her mom isn't a part of the solution, it may not happen.  And that would be sad, but I also know that the choice still rests with our daughter. 

Good for you. :)

Thanks Kate,

But really that meeting was only helpful to me, my husband and our sons.  It did nothing to help ease our daughter's suffering.  I know that she is in pain, but I also know that any changes for the better are all going to have to be her choice.

I think you and your dh did really well and are to be congratulated. You must feel easier with a more informed approach.

I expect good bit of study on validation would be most helpful. Did I give you some references for this?

Do you have any follow up questions? Do you feel confident about what might happen?

Cheers,

Vivek    

Hi Vivek ,

Thanks for the vote of confidence :)

You did give us some excellent suggestions for resources on validation and for boundaries, thank you.   We'll have to make validating a team effort, as it's usually the case that one of us is angry and the other one is rational when it comes to our daughter - we seem to share the emotions to prevent either one from burning out lol!

I would say that we are intellectually prepared for what might or might not happen, but we're definitely not emotionally prepared.  That will take more study and more conversations between the two of us, just so that we can get our hearts to a point where little things won't set us off.  For example, one of our daughter's complaints was how hurt she was that she could be up in her room all day long and no one even knows that she is there.  (Her room is in a loft - you'd never just pass by it.)  The rational side of me understands that she wants us to mind read, to seek her out, to confirm our love - in her mind of course we should've known she was in the house and she was alone in her bedroom. But the emotional side of me wants to scream "Are you kidding? How could we possibly know that you were in the house if you didn't tell us?"

I have tons of questions, I question almost everything we do!  But almost all the time, when I stop and tell myself to take emotion out of the question and focus on what is the root of the issue, it becomes easier.

Here are a few things I would value opinions on:

1. If my SD's bio mom doesn't play along with getting the therapy that our daughter needs, do we just ignore bio mom and do our best from our end?  (We faced this with bio mom before, and it certainly was difficult! We would take two steps forward and then SD would take three steps back every time she was with her mom.) I wonder if it just makes it worse for our SD with all the confusing, conflicting messages.

2. Is my concern made irrelevant once our daughter is in DBT therapy? Won't she be making the decisions at that point anyway?  DBT should help her overcome her bio mom's sabotage?

3. Do we arrange for the DBT therapy?  Or do we have our daughter arrange it through her psychiatrist?  Where is the line drawn between us pushing, and her making choices?

4. I really don't want her back living with us in our home. Not as she is now anyway - I really believe that with therapy she will be able to better know herself and understand how her choices affect her and others.  Any thoughts on how we can maintain a good amount of contact that doesn't violate our need for space, doesn't push her too far away (abandonment) and doesn't pull her too close (taking away her choices)?  I don't know how to do contact without either being all in or all out!

Big sigh. 

Thanks in advance - other perspectives sure are appreciated :)

A short text message like "hey, how are you doing? What ya up to today? Luv you!" opens an opportunity for conversation, communicating emotions, shows care and concern.

 


While this may be helpful in the decision making process, it is important to remember that your SD is an emotional thinker.  Combining reason/logic with emotions is a skill referred to in DBT as wisemind.   


Consistency promotes learning... .yes, it will make it more difficult for SD and not impossible. 


She already is making her own decisions.  The skills she will be presented with in DBT are coping skills... .she will learn to cope with her emotions, thoughts, situations... .


As parents we present opportunities... .we don't have the power to orchestrate the outcome.  Many DBT programs come with a caveat that the participants attend regularly and are invested in the program.  We can't force anyone to be a willing participant... .it will be up to her.


Many DBT programs also have a family component where you can learn the same skills she will be learning.  The ability to speak the same therapeutic language and modeling the use of these skills in the family unit is beneficial.  How does your husband feel about wanting her to live outside the home?  How can you reconcile limiting the "sabotage" by her mother and wanting her to stay with the mother?  Who has legal custody?  If it is your husband... .is he willing to enforce the custody orders?  Teens, and especially teens with BPD need a great deal of structure (that they will push against with all their mite) to believe they are loved, cared for, and secure.  As healthy adults we must have the skills, strength, and fortitude to provide that structure.

lbjnltx

Hi Bonus,

Thank you for your kind words for me... .it's easy to give someone resources - but it's another thing to absorb them and implement them eh?

So, yes to what lbj says and here's a different perspective (but the same):


You do what you can and no more... .that's all that is possible. If you act according to your beliefs, to your integrity, then you are doing the right thing. Yes, conflicting messages from her bio mom may be confusing, but what is different here? Your dd is accustomed to that situation surely. As lbj referred to, this is logical thinking and your dd is responding emotionally to things, not logically. If you act in a 'wisemind' then the message is the best you can do.

Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?PHPSESSID=63dfc30d82d694bd550b7aa12e30c6e7&topic=64749.0)


DBT is not an instant overnight recovery... .it takes a long time for it to work. It may be that there are ups and downs for quite some time to come. But hopefully, it will work and DBT be successful... .and then her mom's sabotage will be easier to cope with. I expect that it will always be an issue though... .that's the way it is with mum's and daughters.


Ultimately she has to be responsible for her decisions, but you can be supportive. Where the line is drawn there I am not sure... .you will know best. It may be that you make appts at 2 DBT places and let her make the choice... .it may be that you give her the info and let her make the choice, it may be that you let her find out for herself. It may be that she does nothing... .no matter what you do.


You learn how to stop being 'black and white' when you apply the skills we learn here... .and it takes a lot of practice and learning to get good at them. My dd is not allowed back home with having begun therapy ... she has been doing therapy but for PTSD... .and she has stopped because she is in a 'post therapy stage' she says her T says... .nup, she can't some home to us without being better - and that is our assessment... .So what, she isn't asking to come home anyway! My dd 32 wants no contact it seems, but I am working on me for when she does!

So, my advice is to do what you think is right while maintaining your boundaries. What you need to be doing is what you are doing ... so get out there and practice, eg validation, with all and sundry - not just with dd. Start a 'mindfulness' practice daily to build the habit and work on breathing in the moment and touching base with how you are feeling. Stay with us on the boards for easy learning and reinforcement - comment on other people's posts etc. Read, learn and then do some more... .you are so lucky you have a good dh to work with you on this 

Gotta rush now,

cheers,

Vivek    

Hi Bonus Mom,

Viv and lbj have already given you excellent input so I won't duplicate what they have already said.

I would add one more thought... .Get your mind around that you can only change yourself. You can't change your SD. However, once you change your SD will reap the benefits. This isn't an overnight process for sure.

Being Mindful

I would like to heartily agree with lbjnltx here; this was probably the singularly most important thing I did when my son was first diagnosed with BPD. He'd been in a Dual Diagnosis Program, with a 21-day intensive DBT therapy program. After he came home and I found out what he'd been learning, I bought all the books I could (listed for me by the DD Center) and came to this site (also given to me by the Center). He was reading his library of books we got (again: the Center) on his way home from the program, and I was reading mine and at this site.

BPD ended up being an intriguing subject we could/can talk about; the symptoms, behaviors, feelings, treatments, etc. We both were learning at the same time (except he was 21 days ahead of me; I'm a quick learner   ) and speaking the same language as lbjnltx says. I am an ally for him, not his enemy, and he loves talking about himself (he says he has a touch of NPD, too   ) so this works for both of us. I use validation, S.E.T. and the other tools I learned here and in the books. It keeps me balanced, and him balanced, too! I can't encourage you enough to learn what your daughter is learning, and to be her cheerleader and ally here. I know my son is not your daughter, and her attitude may not be like his... .But it can't hurt, right?

Rapt Reader,

what are the books your son was reading?  I would like to get some for my daughter.  I have books that i read and it has helped a lot.  Thanks

I'll have him make up a list, OK? That's actually a great idea, I think... .I know of these (because I've got them now and have started reading the first one) right now:

"The Buddha & The Borderline" by Kiera Van Gelder

"Get Me Out of Here" by Rachel Reiland

But there are really many more... .I've paid for them, so I know 

I've actually wanted to share the books that my BPDs36 has been reading since he came home from the Dual Diagnosis Program in April 2013. These, along with what he read (I don't have the names of those books, though) during his 21 days at the Center, have helped him understand himself and his behaviors and symptoms better. And they have helped him cope. He said that he thinks people with BPD of any age can read them, but some may be difficult for the younger ones. And, the 2 books above written by women who'd had BPD and recovered enough to write their books, he thinks may be too much for younger sufferers. He said their parents should decide... .But, he loved those books. Here are the rest:

"The Addictive Personality: Understanding the Addictive Process and Compulsive Behavior" by Craig Nakken.

"The Angry Heart: Overcoming Borderline and Addictive Disorders. An Interactive Self-Help Guide" by Joseph Santoro, PH.D. with Exercises by Ronald Cohen, PH.D.

"Mindsight: The New Science of Personal Transformation" by Daniel J. Siegel, M.D.

"Mindfulness For Borderline Personality Disorder: Relieve Your Suffering Using the Core Skill of Dialectical Behavior Therapy" by Blaise Aguirre, MD & Gillian Galen, PsyD

"The Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook: Practical DBT Exercises for Learning Mindfulness, Interpersonal Effectiveness, Emotion Regulation & Distress Tolerance" by Matthew McKay, PH.D., Jeffrey C. Wood, PSY.D. & Jeffrey Brantley, MD.