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My exBF has said he is sorry to me several times.  He acknowledges the decisions and actions he made caused other decisions to be made by me.  Namely for me to leave and tell him that his actions were a deal breaker. 

My response is great thanks for saying your sorry and thanks for understanding you are the cause.  However, if you ask him more questions all his answers reflect that he would still make the same decisions.  That he feels he acted appropriately.  Then he expects me to say what I am responsible for and that I should have been more understanding.  He want me then to take responsibility for my part.  To which I say that's a typical abuser make the abused admit guilt for his abuse.  I really don't feel that I could have done much more.  More boundaries would have ended the relationship sooner. 

To me his sorry is empty and hollow.  If I'm really sorry for something I try to make restitution.  I try to be better as a person.  I don't say I'd do things exactly the same.   I don't blame the other person saying they should have been more understanding.  And I certainly can't say I'm sorry for your mental incapacity. 

So I'd be interested to know what you all think?  What does it mean when someone says they are sorry and how do you fix an injury?  I have more questions to sort through but want to start with this part first. 

Sounds like this part is your responsibility:  Having boundaries in place that define your values |iiii

His decisions are his own.  Fine.  Your decisions are you own.  Excellent!  What causes so much confusion is the blurring of boundaries.  FOG.  Dysfunction.  Blahville.


Not sure that I understand the question?  Fix an injury/heal a wound?  Yours or his?

A BPD usually has a lot of toxic shame deep down and creates false selves to cover it up.They tell themselves and project to others that they are 'perfect' or 'always right' because deflecting from a narcissistic stance will rip off the 'cover'.Immature emotional thinking,rigidity,inability to heed to good advise coupled with the narcissism makes it impossible to 'reason with' them or to help them 'see light'.

Also,for a non,apologizing is a way to convey genuine remorse with a promise of not repeating those actions and is usually done after a fair amount of reflection or due to guilt pangs.A BPD's emotional realm is different from that of a non.Even though they might feel genuine remorse,it is a 'transient' feeling.In the 'heat of the moment' based upon how they are feeling,they might apologize but I don't expect a 'change' in their actions or behavior.

They might even forget(really) that they did apologize/felt remorse.

In summary, narcissism,emotional immaturity,transient emotions cause their apologies to be rendered meaningless.

Ok so let us say He says he's sorry.  I say I'm sorry.  Then the next step from him would typically be then since you are sorry for what you did wrong, compromise and everything can be fine... . That's been the modus operandi.  So I compromise on whatever the issue is and he gets what he wanted in the first place and in my mind he NEVER took any of the responsibility because he never made a change to his thinking.  And I took on ALL the responsibility for the issue which meant I compromised on a boundary.   In this case the problem of the relationship never really got corrected.  It only harbored my resentment.  So my question is does taking responsibility mean both parties have to help in resolving the issue. 

My BPD ex never apologized for anything real.  The 'apologies' I got were insincere, incongruent, and part of the manipulation and the game; it seemed to her to be the best play at the time in the relationship battle she constantly wages.

And at other times I would confront her with things, like taking her out to dinner, which she took for granted, and then asking her to say 'thank you for dinner' when we were leaving.  She said she did, asked if I wanted her to say in several ways, which she then did, all lies, all an attempt to erect a smokescreen over her mistake and then her shame.  By then I'd gotten to know her well enough, and watched her spiral down into the depths of shame, none of it expressed to me of course, I just perceived it.

So my take is a BPD can never sincerely apologize and own their sht, because that would mean they are completely worthless trash in their own head, there is no gray, it's all black and white, and that lack of ability to get off it, be real, and connect with another human makes intimacy and closeness impossible.  Too bad, because it could have been awesome.

It would depend on what the issue is, I guess, and if it was a boundary-busting situation to begin with or something that could be negotiated that wouldn't cause further resentment by either party.  Enter values.

Generally speaking, an apology isn't given in a tit-for-tat sort of way.  If someone is apologizing it's because they sincerely feel they have reason to and it's not given to absolve own momentary guilt or 'fog', but because the person they're apologizing to has been hurt or affected in some way by behavior that wasn't appropriate, hence the need to correct it AND apologize.  Not apologize with no correction, which deems it empty.  Or to apologize when there's no reason to.

An apology doesn't have to be accepted when there's funny business involved. Enter boundaries. 

When someone dies, we generally say sorry for your loss.  This always seemed trite to me.  I generally say I hope for you to have comfort during your time of loss.  To me there is no reason to say I'm sorry because I didn't do anything wrong.  So when the exbf would say I'm sorry you feel that way _____.  It just never seemed like a real apology. 

And your right when someone apologies for something like adultery, heck with it if I don't want to accept the apology then fine.  My exbf never had an "affair" but if he did it would be I'm sorry that I had an affair.  I did it.  I said I'm sorry.  Therefore I took responsibility.  Then he would expect you to say your sorry for not _____hit (example being attentive enough to him or whatever) which caused him to have an affair.  Thus the blame is back on me for his indiscretion.  That's what I find I'm struggling with.  The blame when I really don't feel I did anything wrong.  And then having to accept punishment from him of him having an affair.  There's where I think the manipulation and abuse comes in.  And where I believe there is no real responsibility taken by him.  Of course he disagrees with me and says I'm the perpetual victim.  Hence, I've decided to exit stage right.  As in right away.

But I'm still doubting myself.  Help me please.

I'm a numbers person, and use scales a lot, so if I ask you on a scale from 1 to 10, where are you with wanting to cut this relationship off for good, with 1 being 'wanting to try to make it work' and 10 being 'I'm done for sure', what would you say right now, and why?

What I want, what I need, and what I get/do are 3 entirely different things. 

I want to keep trying because I've been brainwashed to believe if you work hard at something you will succeed.   

I need to move on because I know by trying more it's just false hope and it's only bad for me.

I get/do means, I'll try to move on but I'll still keep some connection to him until I can really move on. 

I moved out completely, only one large item to move, I have disengaged conversations.  I've been mindful by keeping busy with getting the home I'm living in settled.  I've been spending time with friends and family and I'm centering my inner self.  I haven't felt so at peace as when I'm home nesting.  Every time he calls I'm flustered for a day after.

So my decision has been made.  Now it's a matter of not second guessing myself because he's told me I won't find anyone better than him.  I'm too difficult a person.  And I am a never good enough type.  He couldn't have done anything more and made me happy.  And according to him nobody else will ever be good enough and that's my problem. 

How I feel about it is... .I'm happy to be single.  I'm an independent woman with a good functional family, friends, and generally happy.  I have no vices.  So if I don't meet a life partner then that's what God wanted for me and I'm ok with it.  I'll do everything I can do to be healthy and happy.  If it is intended for me to be with a life partner I'll do all I can do to be available.  I'd rather be content and at peace than be in a relationship and feel the roller coaster angst I have felt during the last relationship.  Yes we had good time that I will cherish.  I just won't accept a deal breaker.  There will be no other women in my relationship with a man.  Abuse is a deal breaker.  Etc... .

eeyore --

You sound like you are in a good place.  I know that what we say and how that actually plays out can be very different at times, but you sound resolved.  And... .while I hear frustration from you (and who isn't frustrated when dealing with this crap,) I hear peace and strength.  This makes me happy for you!

As far as the responsbility thing goes, you know the drill.  Your bf says what you want to hear i.e., "I'm sorry."  Yet, the behaviors continue.  When someone is truly sorry, the offensive behavior stops.  Period. Better to have never made the amend than to reoffend.

And, a sincere apology never looks for a "well, I'm sorry too."  That's soo manipulative.

turtle

I'd just like to say challenge this idea in your mind. I'm always leery when people pipe off with BS like this.  Take a long hard look at the reality of what that statement actually means in reference to him... .

Just the facts... .this helped me quite a bit when I was second guessing my choices and getting caught up in what the other person thought.

A list of the competing values, patterns that violated this, things that occurred that really made it non-functional... .kind of helped me solidify my decision. 

Do you have something like to read when you second guess yourself?

@turtle, thank you I was needing validation that I am on the right road even though it's covered with FOG.  I worry about the my poor visibility.

@GreenMango, I'm going to examine the competing values/patterns.  Consistent Compassion and kindness is at the top of the list.  Then comes the unfinished business with the ex.  Two issues that compete with I won't find anyone better than him. 

I'm open to suggestions.  Generally when I second guess myself I look at my dream book.  All the things that represent what I love about life.  Most of the things in my dream book represent feelings.  I have pictures of families in the park representing the family I desire, ideas for home decorating represent calm and tranquility, etc.  When I look at my dream book it reminds me to keep striving for the things in the book.  That way the reality of whatever I am second guessing myself with isn't so important.  My aspirations are what are important to me. 

I've been letting anger get me through moving and dealing with him.   I've had so much anger for the last 6 weeks or so. Angry at myself for not getting out sooner.  Broken promises, false hope, etc.

He called me one night having been crying asking me if I missed him? Have I been crying?  I said it's a very sad situation.  I didn't say anything more.  Truthfully I haven't been able to cry as I have felt all cried out.  Years of crying of things he did that I thought were cruel but I sucked it up and cried until I couldn't cry any more. 

Another time he called and I felt he was trying to manipulate me.  I felt so angry I said you are a manipulator and an abuser and that's what you are trying to do to me right now.  I'm not going to let you manipulate me ever again.   I don't want to talk to you anymore you are upsetting me.  I have had enough. 

But this weekend I finally can cry again.  I'm letting go of the anger so that I can get to healthy.  All of the emotions are coming out which is where the self doubt comes in.  Hence I started posting because I needed the help getting through it.

To me, saying "I'm sorry" means that empathize and/or sympathize with you and I wish that I could reach back in time and stop whatever brought you hurt. If it was something that I did, then "I'm sorry" means I realize that I was wrong or ignorant and wish that I could undo it; if it was the death of someone close to you, then "I'm sorry" means I wish they hadn't died or that their death didn't cause you pain. "I'm sorry" is separate from understanding that my actions may have caused a reaction from you. That's two different statements: "I'm sorry for hurting you." and "I understand why you reacted in hurt."

In my opinion, and it's just my opinion, what your exBF says is not a true "I'm sorry", it's just word play and acting, a method to soothe over your feelings. When he's saying "I'm sorry" and then asks you to "take responsibility", what it really seems to mean is "I wish you'd just forget about it and stop feeling bad about it" and "I feel it was your fault to begin with anyhow". It's not sympathetic or empathic at all.

To me, in a healthy relationship, each person takes ownership for their own behaviors, and if they believe some behaviors are serious faults/flaws they can decide to change them (or not). Some behaviors are relatively unimportant, and we feel justified that other people should take it or leave it. If I want to organize all the contents in my refrigerator by alphabetical order, it's silly, a waste of time and energy, but most people can live with that, it's not a dealbreaker. Unfortunately, it seems like pwBPD think everything about us that bugs them is a dealbreaker, but on the flipside they are justified in everything they do and should never have to apologize. So when they apologize, it is just a way to be socially accepted by saying the words "I'm sorry" but then they can't just leave it at because it makes them feel upset.

eeyore, do you feel a bit hung up because he's gotten inside your head making you doubt yourself? As for the belief about working hard and not giving up, it has to be in regards to something you have some control over, and basically that is only ourselves. We can only provide support and encouragement for others but can never change them. That only comes from within. Heck, that's the point of being here on the boards, just providing support and encouragement, but nobody here has ever changed another person. All we can do is tell each other to look around at all the different paths ahead, maybe give some info about the difficulties and rewards of each, but then each of us has to undertake the journey ourselves under our own steam. Maybe along the way a friendly person will show us a map when we are lost or shine their flashlight on a darkened path, but it is still us that is making the journey.

For what it's worth, I think you are being very honest with yourself. That is a good thing because then you can be honest in your interactions with the world and other people too. Best wishes to you.