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Dh and I talked last night after gd8 went to sleep. She is doing really well with this past few nights. Sleeping all night in her own bed too.

We talked about the struggle we each have, in our own ways, to stick to not letting live in our home when she gets released. Most likely she will serve some time then be on probation again. Dh revealed that he withdraws partly because he knows he will say yes to her after we have decided together to say no. This applies to lots of things - money, getting a ride, etc.  I also undercut our decisions.

We realize the only way to be successful is to work at this as a team. We have to find ways to support each other in our resolve. Someone said, on one of my other threads, that as long as DD believes there is even the tiniest chance I will be there for her she will not seek out help from the other resources available to her.

Am posting this while I search for the hidden letters - gd's spelling game. NO school today.

qcr  

So we plan to write a letter to DD in jail that she needs to seek out other living arrangements before she is released. She says - there are none. And true for public housing or Section 8 vouchers. I think there are some "transitional" housing programs. She has avoided these in the past - rules. She can always be homeless, and we have to be really strong to allow her to choose this.

We have gone around and around with this for a long time. And always end up letting her come back home. She then refuses to respect our limit on her friends being here. This has led to her being back in jail this time.

How do I write this to be validating of how she feels about this, and let her know there is no flexibility on her coming to live here. I want to have contact with her. Want to avoid getting a restraining order or treating her as a trespasser.

Or would it be better to communicate with her about this through some 3rd party? Her lawyer? Find some kind of inmate advocate? Hmmmm - had not thought about that before. Do I need to let the jail/court/probation system work all this out with her? She has to know our home is not available -- how to get her to believe this.

You see, I love her and need to let her go at the same time. I know many of you have been in this place. The last 3 minutes of her call yesterday she described the police coming to the house to arrest her. No discussion, just rang the doorbell, let her get her shoes on, the cuffed her and walked her to the car. "How could you do this to me, mom?"  I was not willing to get in a discussion - I told her that the reasons were things she would not be able to hear right now. Than the time was up. So far no call today.

qcr  

Hi Q,

Just watched the news about the flooding in your area. So devastating; sure hope you are staying dry. Was your GD's school cancelled due to roads out nearby?

If it were me having to write a letter I would use SET. Remember not to tell her you know how she feels. I think it is OK to tell her how this makes you feel as part of the truth, to go over the options and your thought processes and maybe, as another truth piece, tell her what you see as an improvement in GD's mood and happiness.

Of course it isn't easy (so so hard) and I truly understand the difficulties you and your husband are having but your idea to put your heads together and arrive at a consensus is spot on. It is all so opposite of what feels correct, isn't it?

I think it is ok to tell her you are sorry you can't do more for her or something to that effect.

Best of thoughts for you and yours... .

Th.

QC

just want to say that my heart goes out to you

I know that feeling of doing something that is against the wishes of my child because it is the only sane thing to do.  

just keep your eye on the ball - you are creating a safe and stable home for your gd.  that is your first priority.

try to remind DD how important it is for gd to be able to live in a place of peace. 

sending you strength

6  

Hi, qcarolr... .I'm really so sorry that you've got to be so torn up and stressed out over this, after all you've gone through with your daughter so far. I read this post earlier tonight, and have been thinking about it ever since. I do believe that if it were me, I would go with Plan B (  ) and see if the Lawyer, an Inmate Advocate (if there is such a person) or someone in the Court System do this for you. This way an objective 3rd party will let her know that it is her behavior that has caused this consequence. A 3rd party can very matter-of-factly let her know that your house has been rendered off-limits because of her own failure to comply with the rules. Short and sweet (well, you know... .), and you are not the "bad guy" telling her this.

Now, this will probably not stop her from blaming you, but I do believe it should make it more "official" and binding, and you won't have to tie yourself and your emotions up in knots to have to make that ultimatum. I would handle it that way, if I were in your situation I do believe. I would be curious if anyone else agrees with me. I'm married to someone in Law Enforcement, so I do naturally lean to the idea of the Legal System handling something that would be considered a legal issue. Just my 2 cents... .

  to you,

Rapt Reader

Hmmm... .don't know that it would be a legal issue that is enforceable before the fact unless a RO is in place... .but I'm not a lawyer... .just the daughter of one. :)


If it were myself in your shoes qcarolr... .I would write the letter myself.  It is important to be able to defend your boundaries and the reasoning behind your decision.  Be authentic without laying blame.  I would approach it from the perspective of care and concern for gd8.  Be positive (remember the Lundberg's book on setting boundaries with adult children while validating that we believe in them and their ability to follow through and be resourceful) and firm. 

Thanks for the ideas.

I did ask the DA and victim's advocate about this issue the day DD was arrested. Since exbf is the subject of the criminal RO, this case has no impact on our living situation. lbj- you are right. I need a RO in place before she gets out to keep her out of the house. I can also give her notice that she would be trespassing and then call police if she shows up. Have been her before --   [ need emoticon hitting myself in the head with a big board]

The advocate idea was more to offer DD an idea of where she could find help applying for transistional housing before she gets out. I know she has had those applications in hand before, but sabatoged herself in getting them completed (or getting my help to get them completed - then she can blame me). I am not sure of how open her lawyer will be to talk with me since I am the one that filed the complaint for this last arrest. DD has her first hearing tomorrow at the jail - I am not going and will check her status in the evening.

I will pull out my Lundberg book and review this chapter. Maybe even get dh to read it with me. Wow, what an idea. Will keep praying on that one for a miracle. Maybe I will post my draft and get more ideas. Still have anger about DD being DD. Not sure I can write this letter yet. She actually admitted to me that she 'gets substances' for others after a man came into our back yard 2 days ago looking for DD. We put a padlock on that gate - opens onto open space. He had ridden a bike over to our house. GEEZ - maybe I just need to get over my heart pain and get the RO. I keep trying to rationlize that this is just her BPD - maybe she is just beyond really caring about anyone but herself. Truth: she needs to commit herself to significant treatment before she can be at our house. We can bring her stuff to her somewhere else. The more I think about all this, the more angry I get. DD just scares plain scares me. Maybe a copy of the letter needs to go to the judge!


The devastation in our state is beyond belief. All roads into the northern front range mountains are washed out then following the rivers to the east there are lots of roads and bridges damaged. I cannot imagine how long it will take to fix all this. Dh has worked 9 days straight now dealing with flooding in the retirement community where he works in maintenance. Even with very little rain last night, there were new troubles today. The roads he took home yesterday were closed today. He is hoping for repairs or evaluation fo bridges.

The school district emailed links for help dealing with the stress of disasters and will have support staff available if needed when school resumes on Wednesday. I had to pay $10 a tab today for two days of meds. GD's insurance wouldn't cover. I ran out, most of the rx is at the school which is closed, and the phones are down at the mental health center in the city where the refill is sitting waiting - I am sure they were hit by the floods there. At least figured out how to make it work with gd's PCP and pharmacy around the corner.

qcr  

It is understandable that you would be angry qcarolr.  To be authentic at this time would require a letter pouring out your anger... .or would it?  Isn't it your deep compassion for your dd that keeps hope alive for her and your family situation?  I would be frustrated too.

Praying that the words you write will reflect the hope for her and gd that lives within you.

 

q-

When I wrote my response it wasn't with any real cognition of your fear but your fears should be addressedd.

I've thought about this more and wanted to say a few things.

First, just a comment on this statement




"for others" is THE "proof" of drug use right in front of us. The only time I found SD's Xanax it was gotten "for others" and of course, we later found out this was her drug of choice. With drug use as a part of the scenario and given your DD's poor, poor choices, given a stranger on a bike entering your yard, safety has to be at the top for everyone's sake.

Is it possible that (no matter what you write to your DD) she will not be able to read it with clarity, with understanding? Without anger? Not sure that she can realistically be expected to read it with anything but anger... .and we all know how anger clouds even simple to understand concepts. With that understanding, (and as lbj has suggested, a RO in place) maybe best to write her a letter beginning and ending with your love for her and  mention the boundary of her not living in your house as a matter of fact.

It's silly but I keep thinking of the movie "Coal Miner's Daughter" when Loretta Lynn tells her young daughter that she can't accompany her to her singing gig... .she very matter of factly tells her "OH NO, that's a rough old honkey tonk where I'm singing". The way she says OH NO is exactly the no nonsense boundary that I am talking about. "OH NO dear daughter, you can't move back into our home. That just isn't good for us... ." If you know the movie, the sense you get from the way LL says it is that there is absolutely no option. Firm. A great little moment of parenting actually. (I love that movie!)

I am so sorry things are so volatile... .it seems certain that you will get more anger from her... .this will be extinction burst on steroids and you and your dh will need to stick together and be strong otherwise she will be right back in the middle of your day to day life, you, dh and gd will not be safe and your DD will not have a place to get better.

I think your daughter not being able to get better so long as you keep nudging the door open is what you need to keep at the forefront of your thoughts.

Ugh. So difficult.

Thurs.

IMHO, qcaroir, there are two main issues.  Substances and BPD.  Both Gunderson and Linehan state that the substance use needs to be addressed first, before other treatment.  Your dd has connections to the drug world.  A very unsafe place for anyone.  

Maybe, it works for her.  Maybe... .if she can string together a set-up where enough of her needs are being met with your family's involvement and also with these other people, she will do it.  It is working for her.  And she loves you and her family so much.  But she doesn't have a life, so she needs to create a semblance of one with her drug friends.  Makes sense.  An intelligent

girl.  I am not being sarcastic there.  She is intelligent, as much as any of us are, and also very, very soft.  So afraid to be alone.  So afraid to lose you that she does.  

You are so right to make a team with your husband.  Your dd needs to feel that firm boundary, so that she knows what it feels like.  It isn't really about what choices you and your husband make.  It is the feeling of the strong united together-singing of your husband and you that your dd desperately needs.  You know this, I know, because she becomes regulated in jail.  You and your husband need to be the kind, but no-nonsense custodians with your dd.  I think Thursday!s example from The Coal Miner's Daughter is spot-on.  

IMHO, you and your dh need to stand together on what you will say.  Keep it simple.  Be totally honest.  It seems to me that you and your dh DO want to have your dd in the house.  You wouldn't be vacillating if you thought otherwise.  Why can't you say that to your dd?  You do want to help her.  Yet, the bottom line is that the drug world and all it brings with it, mainly, very fragile people, is not something you can handle with everything else on your plate.  Honestly, if you were wealthy and had nothing else to do, life might be different, but your dd needs to understand that you only have the cards you were dealt.  What you say to her needs to come from your true reality, not what a book says or anyone else for that matter.

There are no formulas.  Just human communication.  Very old-fashioned.  The way Gunderson talks to his BPD patients is precisely  the tone and mood of Loretta Lynn's words to her daughter.  

Just tell her the truth.  You love her more than words will ever express.  Right now, with her life-style choices, it doesn't make any sense for you to be together.   Ask her if she sees what you are getting at?  

Just my bumbling words.  Talk to her as an equal and use common sense.  I am talking to myself here.  I didn't use my common sense.  

Reality

First - this has to be a letter signed by both dh and I, not just me. This is about our family home environment, not about "mom's needs". That is DD's primary response to me. That I turn it into a conversation about me. And this is a true statement. I easily get into that victim/rescuer role. Have to keep my feet firmly planted outside that ugly Karpman Triangle.

Much good musing from you, Thursday and Reality. Lbj - thanks for the vote to bring my never-ending HOPE into focus.

Think there will two letters. First to DD, then to judge. Should know the Division her case is assigned to after her hearing today. My contact needs to be through DA's office, not the public defender office - they are there to be on DD's side. And I am really not on that side any longer. They will see my position as a copy of all correspondence will be cc: to the lawyer. I am going to be transparent in this with all involved. So who is that? Lawyer, DA, probation officer.

My hope for DD:

She will be assesesed and accepted in the PACE program. She will accept this with a commitment to succeed and ask for the help she

needs to stay connected.

She will be offer application for a transistional housing program physically close to the PACE program location, or in easy bus aligmment with bus pass support.

She will have easy access via phone to an advocate/sponsor/case coordinator.

I know she wants to succeed in her probation and move away from being homeless into her 30's.

My hope for my home:

We will continue to create a loving, peaceful space for each of our needs.

Gd will continue to make progress in her r/s with us, friends, and school.

I will continue to address in T a coldness that has overtaken me in r/s to dh. New revelation yesterday: this is about me, not him. Left msg w T for appointment with marriage a focus - not DD or gd as focus.

We may need a RO. Dh will choose to be a part of this with me. We will keep it hope based by asking for some reasonable contact with DD. She may need police supported access to our home to get some of her stuff. (we can modify this order as things get better, or worse. A civil RO is permanent after the court hearing two weeks after initial temporary order is given. I need to get our lawyer to handle the permanency hearing. I cannot be the one questioning DD. This is very very painful for all involved - we did this in 2009; rescinded the RO after about 6 months. That was a mistake looking back.)

This is my thinking underlying composing this letter. What do you think?

qcr  

My goals since Nov 2009 (when I got that RO) are the same:

1. Rasie gd in healthy environment

2. Live a peaceful life - solid marriage

3. Help DD help herself - letting go

WOW. Think I found my wisemind today.  :)

Maybe it is all an illusion, the posts I made earlier today. Reading them now - I have not let go at all wanting to direct DD's life.

She called after her hearing. Sounds complicated - multiple cases open again with this violation. She has multiple bonds that total $13,000. She is stuck in jail. In her mind she has done NOTHING WRONG AND DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE THERE. Since I filed the complaint that put her here, it is all my fault. All I could think to say was, "things were not working here very well." then she hung up the phone. 2 minute call.

How do I put this all out of my mind for a bit? While things in jail get sorted out without any input from me. Don't think there are any words from me that could help DD. Maybe I don't have any since I think this is where she has to be right now. And it allows the rest of my family to feel safer -- to be safer.

Does DD even get the potential risks she put us in with her drug dealing friends knowing where we live?

Guess it is time to contact the SSI disabilty lawyer with this news. The appeal hearing is on 10/28, and most likely DD will be in jail. Need out of the middle of this part of DD's life too.

Feels like giving up. I just want to cry.  Then I remember the great day gd and I have had. Took long walk to park for picnic. Took the dogs. Gd enjoyed playing in the 12 inches of water in the volleyball court - until the city worker arrived to pump it out anyway. I was brave and we took both dogs. They did really good today. I was feeling calm and focused. Will get it back. Just need to unload a bit here.

THanks for listening.

qcr

qcaroir

What a lovely day you had!

Reality

Dare to have hope without control.  To surrender control is an act of great courage and faith... .faith that God is in control, faith that your dd is resourceful, faith that others care, faith in your choices to care for self, faith in the decisions that protect gd8.  Refer back to taking care of self and protecting gd8 when you question the "rightness" of your decisions.  Yes they are hard and painful and yes... .they are good.

For now I can focus on what needs be done today. The housing options, where to put Dd's stuff away from our home for her access, etc... .This can wait until things for her become more clear. I called her lawyer today - public defenders change each week and each day. By a miracle she will be there tomorrow when Dd has her next hearing. She said she will talk to her. She said she had not seen DD's file. She said there a many programs in jail to assist inmates with DD's issues. I will keep suggesting DD ask for what she needs.

DD hung up on our call again today. Always ends up shifting toward how I could care about her and put her back in jail. I do not know what to say different. She chose to bring her friends to our house. She chose to hang out in our neighborhood with exbf - I would not allow him into our home. Gd had traumatic response.

I spoke with the kinship worker at social services about needing support in taking actions to keep DD away from our house when she gets out of jail. Have to do this for gd. Will contact our custody attorney for some legal advice -- is there such a thing as restraining someone from our property and not against our persons? This is what I would like. I know the court does this in criminal actions. DD had a ban on certain areas for 6 months after a trespassing conviction.

qcr

qcarolr... .It does sound like you are getting all your ducks in a row, and I hope you can get accomplished what needs to be done. I sense a calmness in you that I hope you can hold on to. Good luck!

Prayers, as always, are going out for you and your family. This too shall pass... .

 

Rapt Reader

Update: DD had her hearing in jail today. Arraignment of charges. Her next hearing is 10/24/13, which will most likely be a sentencing hearing. There are 4 charges, each with it's own bail - total of $13,000. We were not going to post bond anyway, but definitely not now. One charge of violation of restraining order, 3 charges of probation violation (DWAI plus 2 harassment).

So I needed to write to her SSI Appeal lawyer since the ALJ hearing is on 10/28/13. (Social Security Administrator Law Judge). In reading this email, it really says what I want to say to DD. Maybe this can guide my draft for letter to DD. I would appreciate your feedback.

Hi A.,

Unfortunately DD is in jail again. She violated a no contact order with her ex boyfriend, at our house. Our agreement with her home detention sentence was to comply with all terms of her probation. DD was also fighting us on no other friends allowed in our home - this was to keep GD feeling safe and secure. I filed a complaint, she was arrested on 9/11.

She will be staying in jail. The next court hearing is on 10/24/13. Do you want to contact her public defender lawyer to figure out what to expect at that hearing?  If she could be sentenced to time served and released to probation, she could still be there for her ALJ hearing. If she is sentenced to more jail time, you need to be prepared for that. I am not sure what state of mind she will be in, and how well she can respond to the ALJ. In the past she has been given such little credibility anyway - she processes slowly. Struggles to answer any questioning in the moment. This is part of the NLD.

I need to step back for my own health. Dd needs to reach out to ask for what she needs while in jail. I am hoping they do the assessment for the PACE program while she is waiting for her hearing. She was saying she would do this dual-dx program (probation dept. partnered with Mental Health Partners). This is her best chance to get her life on a different track. This was part of the sentence on 9/5/13.

The other issue is she needs to find somewhere else to live. She cannot have friends here and she does not accept this boundary. This discord is traumatic for GD. This has been the trigger for most of the arguing in 2013 between us. We have to protect GD, therefore DD cannot be at our house until she has been successful in some kind of treatment program.

We cannot afford to pay for an apartment for her, nor are we willing to take the risks of having our name on an apartment for her. This seems such an insurmountable obstacle to her recovery. She needs to be with peers - other than her homeless friends. Perhaps she could qualify for some kind of women's transitional housing program. Maybe this assessment can be done while she waits for her next hearing as well. There are lots of programs at the County Jail. DD needs an advocate to help her know what to ask for. Is there such a thing inside the jail?

If DD is available DH and I are willing to drive her to the hearing on 10/28.

One more quirky phone call. Gd's daddy, in rehab program for past couple months, called from Mexico. Walked away from rehab, went to Tiajuana, cannot get back across border. He wanted me to send him $25. Told him no. Have enough on my plate. Can't help you. Sorry. He is always kind and respectful to me. I know he and DD have been on facebook a lot lately. He called to talk to GD in Aug, Gd declined.

qcr  

qcr,

Letter looks great! |iiii  I hope that your dd is able to have a meeting regarding her SSI appeal.  You have done all that you can.  I am glad that you are taking care of you. I know this is such a difficult time for you.

I am sorry that your dd continues to blame you.  Hopefully, she may  "get it" from one of groups/classes in jail.  Meanwhile, continue to take care of yourself.  I need to improve on that.  Sometimes, I do, and then I am back at being overwhelmed with dd and her never ending requests.  Monopolizing my time and making numerous trips to home improvement store for her move.  I need to be consistent in setting limits.

You are in my thoughts and prayers.  

 

peace

Hi, qcarolr   

I think your letter is really good, and I think that you can use it as a guide to the letter you write to DD in jail. You are telling your truth in a clear and concise way: "just the facts, ma'am"   

You seem to be holding up well through all of this; you certainly do have a lot on your plate! I do think that once you are very firm in your mind how the boundaries should be set, and you aren't manipulated by the guilt you've felt about "letting DD down" in the past, things will get better. You will be steadfast and confident with your boundaries which will make life better for your whole family. You just need to know that you are being fair and true, and hold onto that. Everyone will benefit from that... .

Think I need to shut off my phone account for DD to call from jail. It goes nowhere- her claiming she has done nothing wrong in all of this the past  18 months since DUI arrest. That I am unfeeling and evil to 'do this to her'. Says none of the classes are being help since all done by volunteers and they have more important things to worry about with all the flood damage.

Don't need to keep hearing all this.

Just can't get my state of mind out of anger to write to her about not being at our house when she is out of jail. We have been advised to move her stuff out of our home by our attorney. No money but most likely will rent storage locker. What about her stuff that shouldn't freeze?

Dh said he will take her next call (if in the evening), but this most likely will not be good for him either.

Have been pondering looking up the radical acceptance articles again. Need a refresher there. DD will experience her reality as she does, not how I imagine she could. She does not seem to be in a place to accept being homeless when she gets out and acknowledge that we care. To her, we don't care at all. Have never cared. And no one in jail or 'system' cares either.

Sorry I am sounding discouraged today.

qcr

I erased my reply here, that held some hope of a mentoring program for DD. Then she called.  Said they came to the dorm and talked about that. She does not qualify since she has a violent offense - harassment with domestic violence.

She claims that she had a job offer from thrift store near our home. That she 'had it all figured out'. She did not share this job offer with me, or that she had even interviewed.

I asked her if she would be willing to go to halfway house when she is released - she said no as there are 5 people to a room. She said NO to transistion program at homeless shelter - she would be sick there. I told her living in our home is not an option, and we are figuring out where to put her stuff so she has access. WHEW - that was a trigger. She said do not touch my stuff! There would be legal consequences. Guess I will check this out with my lawyer again. He is the one that suggested we get it out of our home before she is released.

She also said- 'Rent me an apartment'. THis is not an option. We have offered to contribute $50 a month toward housing - that is all we are willing to do. That would be about half of a roommate rent in our area.

Told her I was wanting her to know this as I was going to write to the court about her not living in our home. She said I was again destroying her life if I did this. She was getting really upset, crying.

She continues to deny that there are any issues with her demanding friends come to our home. That she leaves to be with her friends. I said - yes, you do need to be with friends. And there was daily pressure for it to be at our house. It causes too much stress in the home. She has to find other living arrangements.

So I will write to the court before the next hearing on  Oct 24. I have time to put this aside from my every waking thought. To stop talking about it. I left messages for her lawyer - will have to hope for the best. DD knows off all the options she can request while in jail it appears.

More letting go for me to do. Gd could hear her mom's distress on the phone from across the room when she walked in near the end of the call. Her comment was for her mom not to be in our home, though she is sad her mom is upset.

qcr  

This is an amazing example of your granddaughter's emotional awareness, qcarolr. You have helped her to this point. Your gd is showing her own wisemind: I am sad my mom is upset, AND my mom cannot be in our home.

So much of your struggle I see reflected in a family friend who is raising the gd of her mentally ill daughter. She has talked to my mom and me about the importance of remembering to look at her DD's actions rather than believe her descriptions of her actions. Is it a possibility that you might be giving your daughter's words too much credit? This is different than her feelings. DD is trying to meet her needs: get out of jail and live life on her terms as an untreated mentally ill person with substance abuse problems. From my very outside perspective, it appears that she is trying everything she can (pushing every guilt button) to get you to rescue her because it has worked in the past.

DD's words: I had a job at the thrift store! I had it all figured out.

DD's actions: go to park to be with friends and use drugs; fight and scream at home; hasn't had a job in ?

DD's words: I didn't do anything to be in jail!

DD's actions: DV charges--multiple, texted RO/BF to come to house, $13000 bond, yelling, bullying, and physical intimidating qcarol in home and courthouse; traumatizing gd with anger behaviors and friend choices

DD's words: I don't qualify for mentoring

DD's actions: Unknown because you do not know who "they" are or what "they" said. (My daughter will say she doesn't qualify for something (I can't go to homework club because they said only people with reading questions can go.) or she doesn't have materials from school when she doesn't want to do them, and she will say "they said I didn't have to." I have learned that these words usually indicate that something is due or she is confused about something, is afraid of the work that is involved, and anxious about appearing "dumb".)

Do you think your DD's comments about the mentoring program could be using similar avoidance techniques? Your DD says she doesn't qualify because she knows one of your rescue triggers is her possible homelessness. She is anxious about the unknown expectations or effort involved in a mentoring program. Guilting and bullying qcarolr is a behavior she has used in the past and has been effective in the past. She knows how to get her needs met. Her survival skills are very strong even if they aren't the survival skills we want for our children. The hard part is letting go of expectations and radically accepting that you DD is choosing to follow this path. However, perhaps your daughter will qualify for mentoring once she finally accepts that qcarolr and Mr. qcarolr are maintaining their boundaries and are choosing a new path.

Your GD's words are so insightful, heartfelt, and wise. You and your DH are working so hard to raise her, guide her, and protect her. She is fortunate to have you and your DH working so hard to give her the best guidance in life you can.

The letting go that your are doing is beyond words. When I read your posts, I see that you are working so hard in your values and boundaries hour by hour, minute by minute to let go of the expectations and outcomes for your DD and let a higher power carry your burden.

Prayers and compassion for your family.

Pilate

pilate - this reply sounds so much like my dh when I need to share with him about dd call. he jumps in with his fear that my guilt is triggered and i will resuce her without consulting him. this has happened in the past. it will not happen again.

on homelessness: dd has lived 80% with out of our home past several months. we have not allowed any of her friends in our home since first of may this year. she was not allowed in our home for the month of may. then i took pity on her extreme distress and suicidal behaviors in June. hindsight is so clear - i should have stayed out of it in both june and aug when she was in jail. yet, maybe she is at a place to have some goals now that she did not then. she is able to state her goals now - independence means job, place to live, car. and goal of work in thrift store. this is first time in her entire life she has clearly stated goals.

it is 100% up to her to accept the resources needed to accomplish these goals. i will not be there to do it with her or for her, as the pattern was in the past. like in high school. my desire for her to be in school really created a very co-dependent r/s with her. it was one way i know i 'failed' her. did not know how to do it different at that time.  i believe it will be different with gd - gd is a unique and aware individual. i am a smarter, more balanced parent this second time around.

thanks for you comments. reminders of letting go of expectations, esp. of outcomes, and radical acceptance are always so helpful.

qcr  

qcr I am sorry I haven't been here... .I have just read it all and I am feeling sad for you and reassured because you are staying strong.

I am so impressed with what Pilate said and I have been thinking of what you could say. I thought it would be helpful if you had a 'prepared answer' that was easy to remember when your dd tried to press your buttons. If it were me, what I would talk to my dh about would sound something like this:

dd I am always here for you (support). I know you have experienced much pain and hurt in your life (empathy). The chaos of how you chose to live means that you cannot live at home (truth). If you have been in therapy and if there are improvements in how you live your life so that you can abide the boundaries we set, then we will consider your return to our home (hope).

For me the key part to this, the part I would want to really memorise is "the chaos of how you chose to live" the word chaos is a hard one to argue with and it has been her choice (even though we understand the difficulties due to BPD and learning difficulties etc). Your family needs order, harmony (a value if you like), your dd's choices are chaotic and more.

sending you so much love and prayers still,

Vivek      

Well that's me and not necessarily you at all. I hope this adds to the intent to help your head stay clear and not add to confusion.

I am also impressed with pilates reply and also Vivek s because I think when we are struggling with what to do, it really helps to have concrete examples in front of us.

q- patterns are ingrained but once we are aware and only if we are aware, we begin to embrace a need to change.


I wonder if you and your husband could work things differently? What would things look like if he made all of the decisions?

Do you think if you let go that things would change? (not important whether good changes or bad, just focus on the word change)


This sounds like you are in learning mode. Bring it on. Let it in.

Sometimes, our paths are jagged and nothing we do can smooth the experience. If we had more perspective, we could see what's coming around the next bend. If we give up or try to find a less jagged path I think that diversion can actually mean more hardships.

The situation with your DD is exacerbated for now. It is a leap of faith in the workings of the universe to trust something that "feels wrong".

Looking at the bigger picture, has what felt right done much good? For all of us here, that should be a clue that somehow things are amiss and there are indeed better ways of doing things.

I can see such awesome effort on your part. I also see it in your descriptions of your DD. She is stunningly tenacious!   Sadly though, she is also mentally ill. You've got so much on your plate my dear. So very much on your plate. My    goes out to you and yours.

xoxo

thursday

About working with dh: I do need to step back from the phone calls and see how that goes. sometimes her really makes it worse when his anger and fear is prominant. very very sarcastic and accusing. this would not help show dd our love and support. guess i do not trust him. plan to work on this in my T this week.

gd has such focuse message for me whenever I have contact with dd: she is afraid if i am in physical presence of dd that we will argue and i will be hurt or taken away from her. I drove to the jail last night to add a little to dd's commisary account. she was $5 short to get the rest of her needs. - personal hygiene stuff - that she had called about. as i backed out of driveway gd ran out and asked if i would see dd.  I explained that no, i was only putting money in a machine in the jail lobby - gd has seen this one time when she wanted to see where her mom was. her reply: good. my mom is too angry to see you.

I have shifted my focus on writing to dd from talking about resources she 'should' take advantage of - this is all up to her, and I realize she knows what is there. I am working on the SET methoad, and Vivek  your example is close to what is on my mind. Thanks for helping me with some words to use.

dh has agreed we need to both write this letter, not just me. goal: write letter to mail by Weds.

need to get into my work day. work from home on Mondays - have to keep from getting distracted.

thanks for all your care.

qcr  

I have a uBPDh and a uBPD mom.  I'm not sure why I originally stumbled on your posts.

I can't imagine what you go through.  Just wanted to say that you are a real example of someone dealing with the raw reality of BPD in my eyes and I appreciate following your story.

allibaba - thanks for the care.  There are many parents here that have similar situations, or parts of my situation. I do not know how I would survive my life without this place to come dump my mind. Dh thanks you too - he says to me: I can't listen anymore, go get on your computer. :) And to have all the loving support and understanding - this is such a bonus. I sometimes worry I share too much. There may be a couple times this has been noted by another member, but in a kind way.

We are here for each other in whatever way can provide healing and recovery. Such a lifelong process.

qcr  

Hey qcarolr,

Been silently following your story - rooting for you and yours.  

Rachel Raskin-Shoot, PysD (author of An Umbrella for Alex) just came out with a book that might be of interest for your GD. I know that you are always looking for any resources to help you in this. It's intended for any kiddos who have experienced trauma:

In My Corner on the Moon (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=209751.0)

It's probably above her reading level (11yo), but I think it would be good for one you could read together.

 DreamGirl  

Dreamgirl - I will check out this book. Thanks.

DD called today when her commissary order came. They did not give her everything because there was not enough money. She said "you don't care, you did not put money in".  I did, last night at 9pm. She was talking to jail staff while I was on phone. Said there was only 41 cents left. I was angry too. I think she got that my intense voice was towards the jail and not her.

I took special trouble to call up booking to be sure there were no fees on her account before I put the small extra amount in to cover her order as she had asked. They said no, we only show the pay out from last week. So I called reception and asked them to check the deposits I had made (they are done at an electronic kiosk in the lobby). She showed my deposits PLUS TWO FEES TOTALLY $35. I asked when they were charged. It was at almost the exact same time I made the deposit AFTER TALKING TO BOOKING.

Well, oops. They found the fee they forgot 2 minutes before. I can see why DD gets so frustrated. She is trying really hard to ask for what she needs, says they just don't care. Hard for me to believe, but seems to be true.

The receptionist initially said 'we can't be doing this from you. your D has to deal with this via written kites inside'. I told her I had called booking, they said there were no fees, I could not just keep putting money in. Dd had gotten a bunch of food items she had not ordered last week because none of the personal items were in stock due to the flooding. Now she was not getting them because they forgot about the fees. So she actually looked up these payments and charges for me. Then she said if DD cannot get her needs met talking to the jail staff, she should go overt their heads and write to the food service (ie. the food she did not order) or write to the commander. Guess I will let DD know this next time she calls.

You know I just want to hug her to me and tell everything will be alright. And I can't do this. She is all grown up now and in charge of herself. But I still feel the pain tonight. Just want to cry.

And DD said please don't get rid of my stuff... .I have nowhere to go. It is nearly unbearable for me to imagine her being released from jail with no one to meet her and nowhere to stay. This was the picture back in Dec 2009 when I had a RO against her and dh picked her up from jail with a backpack of her clothing etc. and dropped her off at the homeless shelter. We imagined she would get connected to a program for homeless and get off the street. Get help. Get treatment. SHe became a homeless person - part of the clan. And in so many ways she still is - this is her friend group.

I was reading in  Porr's book, "Overcoming BPD" today. It so much about how the family adjusts themselves to accomodate the needs of the pwBPD. Always with the idea that treatment will become a reality. This so pushes my heart buttons, and actually increases my guilt feelings. That I have done things all wrong so DD does not choose treatment. Puts my thinking all backwards, filled with my needs, expectations and desires for DD's outcomes. Hanging on , not letting go. I am sure somehow I am misreading this. Esp. pg 259 on 'Balancing Priorities and Demands'.

Can someone help me interpret this?

I KNOW DD cannot live in our home. THis is about what gd needs. I also know that I am an emotionally driven intellectual that is very intense -- push DD's buttons as she pushes mine and this puts gd in way for fear and trauma. I do share some responsibility with this.

I fear that writing to the judge about DD need for release to a residential situation will have a negative impact, not a positive one. And there are very few residential options that are funded in our county - or very low cost. And she really needs the mental health piece of the outpatient PACE program.

Why can I not let this go? I am mired in this housing question all day. Not tied to DD's call today.

I am so tired of my own roller coaster ride. Not thinking clearly at all today.  Discovered that  had my new weekly pill box backwards this morning -- took my evening meds this morning. So maybe this is part of my mental lethargy today -- blood presure med and higher dose of lamictal in error this am. So I took the morning ones at dinner.

Just a big vent here. THanks for listening.

qcr  

qcaroir,

Weave your emotions into your thinking.  Weave your love into your words.  Stick very close to your own life, your reality.  Listen to your body.  Let it have its say.  Forget abstract concepts. 

Your dd is truly loveable.  When I read your posts, I can see why you love her so much. 

Your gd is developing a very wise mind.  Your dh is there for you all. 

I can also see how ridiculous the 'systems' are.  Nonetheless, that is our world.  Not too rosy, in many ways.

Your dd needs to figure out what she needs.  Ask her questions.  What do you think is best, dd?  What are your best options?  Which store would be a good place to work?  How are you going to live in a healthy way every day?  Do you really think your friends are helpful?  Why is that?  The drugs are a problem, IMHO.  Do you think so?  The drug world just doesn't fit with our values.  I mean, I love my medications, but street drugs are a bit different.  Can you see why? 

Your dd is very resourceful, loveable.  She needs a calm staying point to regulate herself.  That is her family of origin.  She also needs a daily job, good nutrition, exercise and one true good friend. 

IMHO, you need to be honest about your own role in the past, when you talk to your dd.  As in, "OMG, dd, I can't believe how ridiculous I was that time."    Then, step right into the present, vision the ideal mother for your dd, that is you.  Live the vision. 

You need to say honestly to your dd that your home is not a safe place for her.  She can't make good choices there.  Her friends do not seem like a safe choice. 

Like the author of The Buddha and The Borderline, your dd needs a few kind people in her life, who will truly care for her.  Your dd needs to figure out how to find one or two good people, who will truly help her and give her the support she needs.

Where?  A church?  Samaritan Village?  A nice fellow.  Someone who doesn't use substances and who is kind.  Where are those people? 

I am just musing and hoping that your dd will somehow meet one good person, who truly cares.  Now there's a prayer.

Reality

Thursday's Loretta Lynn comes to mind as a possible vision. 

Fierce love and no nonsense.

Reality

"Weave your emotions into your thinking.  Weave your love into your words.  Stick very close to your own life, your reality.  Listen to your body.  Let it have its say.  Forget abstract concepts."

I need to keep that in mind all the time 

Weave your emotions into your thinking.  Skill= wisemind

Weave your love into your words.  Skill= mindfulness   

Stick very close to your own life.  Skill=value based boundaries

Listen to your body Let it have it's say.  Skill= Radical self care through mindfulness

Great advice Reality

Reality - every point you make has great value. This helps me to get into a more compassionate place while still holding fast to building safety in all our r/s.

DD needs very structured place to live when released from jail. Needs to be exposed to others with motivation to stay clean/sober. She really needs a mentor. She knows this - we have talked often about this. And there is a wall here for her to find the place to connect. So I am praying she gets released from jail into a structured, residential program --- that she will not want to be in at first. Because the rooms are overcrowded which pumps her panic/anxiety up over the top. She has pushed away, with her actions/behaviors, those clean friends she had. Being homeless stigmatized her with them. Being released into homelessness will lead to her failure. She cannot be in our home. We will not pay for an apartment before she has built some new supportive r/s in treatment - will not support a homeless 'flop' house, which is what it would be.

Thinking more and more that I will write to the judge with my considerations on the value of a safe, structured living situation for DD. She can walk away, violate her probation again, and return to jail.

Hard to keep on my own track here. Only then can I be any kind of positive influence for DD - offering those opportunities for her to regulate and think.

qcr  

I am working on all the skills lbj lists. Reaching out for my own healthy support - T, womens group(starts today again), dh, 12-step group at church. Has taken 18 months to find connections here, and still have lots of discomfort to overcome.

qcr,

I can understand your frustration with the commissary and your dd not having the money in accounts.  I can recall my dd waiting two weeks.  I put the money in via my debit card.  Also, put in kiosk at jail, as my dd said that is the fastest way.  It didn't matter.

Also, can understand the pain in your dd not being able to reside with you.  You know that is not good for anyone in house, but that does not help the pain.  It must be so heartbreaking.  I can recall moving my dd out of her apt. in projects while she was in rehab.  I wanted her out of there, as drug activity going on.  I just complicated matters, and my dd, guess where she went all the time!  So, the next time she got an apt. in a not so good neighborhood, I said, oh well she hangs out in neighborhoods.

My dd was helped by a group funded by Catholic Charities.   They gave her a furnished apt. to live in.  She was obligated to go to life skills meetings.  And, a utility bill was paid in reward for going.  Win win.  My dd's case manager arranged for her to get into program.   That was something that really helped, as  my dd was not eligible for public housing at time due to criminal background.  After   6 months, she was eligible for housing.

Hoping that your dd can get into some housing after jail.  After being in jail, and knowing your house is not an option, perhaps her standards will change.  In my area, there is also housing for those with mental health diagnosis.

Sending you love.  Will continue to pray for you and family.  

 

peace

ps just saw your recent post.  I agree that letter to judge would not hurt.

HI QCR

I am recognizing myself in your posts in the sense of being totally caught up in my head, constantly processing what would work and what wont work, and not being able to focus on any of the good stuff going on in my life because I am obsessing about the problem. 

What you are going thru is clearly up there on the list of one of the most traumatic things a parent could experience.  So many of us here on the board are reading your posts and praying for a good outcome for you and DD. 

What has worked for me, when i find myself in the midst of BPD misery, is to step back, get out of my head, and realize that this period will pass and we will move on to something else, hopefully better and calmer.  Wishing you at least a few moments today to enjoy your blessings.

-6

qcarolr - My heart so goes out to you. Reading your struggles makes the reality of what I'm sure to encouter in the future with DD14 all too real.   Hang in there.

I agree 6. I think it's our logical response to so much illogic around us.

Thinking things out in the abstract is a luxury when there are no crises to come to grips with. If it ever gets in the way of a healthy routine, that's a time to focus on mindfulness and take are of ourselves.

My first rule is to care for myself, then I can care for others.

thinking of us all,

Vivek    

Here is my letter to DD to be mailed today. Hope she gets it before the weekend. Only a start to repair our r/s and try to give her encourgagement. Not sure if validation in here yet. The first paragraph is right out of Porr's book - Acceptance Acknowlegment Declaration (pg331).

Dear DD,

I never knew how much pain you sere in . I never knew how much you suffered. I must have done and said so many things to hurt you because I did not understand or acknowledge your pain. I am so sorry. It was never my intention to cause you pain. What can we do now to imporve our relationship?

I am putting another $40 in your commissary account today. Even though booking took thieir $30 fee out on Sunday - this is why you did not have enough. The jail receptoinist was kind to me when I called to explain what happened. She also said if you need help getting your needs met you can write a kite to the Commander if the jail staff are not responding.

We are commited to keeping your stuff safe. We would like to clean the carpets in the basement. I will be gentle in sorting your things into tubs. Then it will be ready for you when you need it. We are aware of some transistion optoins and hope they are offered to you for your consideration. We are committed ot helping if you need help paying for this up to $50 per week.

We love you. Keep asking for what you need from the jail and then the community when you are released. I know you have the intelligence to keep working toward your goal of independence. With all that you have within you.

Call me and I will listen.

Love, mom

I had a really good session with my T yesterday. She is helping me to focus on today, to find space and time to meditate in prayer and listen for guidance. To be able to ask for what I need too and not always what I can give. I was sharing about the parenting books I have read in the past year - there are a dozen - and how they are synthesizing in my thinking and pondering. I am very attracted to the concepts around attachment. Memories came up for me from very early, pre-verbal childhood that may contribute to my own needs not being met. I was given the best care possible in a loving family. Yet there was still a disruption before I was even a year old that still needs to heal. I have been aware of this before -- hopeful that can continue to find my path to feeling like a more whole person. I realize my needs here interfered in so many of my r/s throughout my lifetime. Most especially with looking to my DD to meet these needs instead of my being present to meet her needs. I cannot reparent her, but I can put all the skills I have gained into making my contacts with her positive. I can take care of myself, and then be available to love her with no strings attached. Boundaries in place  - listen and validate her feelings, avoid validating invalid actions and behaviors. This is hard work every day for me.

qcr  

Hi, qcarolr... .I think your letter to your daughter is good; starting with that Acknowledgment is a good thing (it's worked for me in the past with my uBPD D-I-L and younger son who has "fleas"   ). It sounds like you are getting to a better, healthier place, for yourself and your family. The quote above sounds really monumental to me, like a big step in your healing and growth as a person and a parent. I've found that when I have needs that are tied into my childhood, and they can't be met by anyone else, I try to get into "wisemind" and become the loving parent/adult to my little girl self in order to self-soothe and move on to some better place in my heart and soul. It sounds like you are learning to do that, too? Obviously we can't expect our children to parent us, and with all we've been learning the best parent for our little girl selves would be us... .Lots of times when I'm feeling "off" I ask myself: How would I treat my loved one who feels this way? And, then I comfort myself that way  *)

That is a very nice letter qcarolr!

I wonder about using the word "intelligence" given your daughter's self image issue regarding her learning disability... .would she be more open to the terms strength, resourcefulness, determination, drive, etc... .all those qualities that have made her a survivor... .

Just a thought.

 

Dear qcaroir and dear lbjnitx:

I like the word intelligent for qcaroir's dd.  It is a little grain of mustard seed of visioning for qcaroir's dd, who surely is intelligent and capable of making good choices.  Hope comes from very miniscule changes.  Over time.

Reality

I did ponder the word "intelligence". This is a statement of fact to her. She is very smart. Her LD is all about processing speed and coding ability (not really sure what that means?). So often it is others impatience and mis-perceptions that lead to her 'feeling stupid/retarded'.

Only her response to this letter will let me know if this word conveyed the message intended.

qcr  

Good job on the letter. You are such an earnest person!


I think your letter conveyed the message intended and her response might not be what you expect... .which is the general problem with expectations!

I do hope that your daughter will be able to hear what you have put so well. And it sure looks like you are paving a path to a better relationship with your efforts.

thursday

DD called yesterday. Don't think she got letter yet. Had her PACE assessment (dual dx probation program). T that did eval gave her SWOE book [Stop Walking on Eggshells]. DD was saying I needed this book as it described me exactly! I told her I have this book. Maybe I can read it again. Now, do ya think this is blaming the mom. Wonder what the T really thinks. Can see DD pursuing PTSD treament. They do have access to evals. with BPD dx from 2009 - at least I hope lawyer passes these on to court. I do have hope. If this allows DD to connect to someone in her probation/treatment program this is good. It is a required 2 year program that has to be court ordered.

I called the PACE office today to verify DD comment that she was told there is absolutely no housing options, esp. since the flood. 1800 houses lost within 30 miles of DD. The only opening is at the homeless shelter 'First Step' program. There are homeless in program - this makes it so much harder to stay clean/sober. If we could find a way to help DD with housing, there are risks of her failing probation and us being stuck with lease. They do home checks on regular basis. We are not willing to take the financial or legal risks of renting for her.

An opportunity to buy an investment property plopped into my lap this week. It has a seperate 1 bedroom apartment, seperate entrance, attached to a 2100 sq ft 3 bdroom house. Could potentially get enough rent on main house to cover costs of ownership. Allowing DD to live in the apartment with agreement for rent when she has a job or disability benefit would give her the stability she needs to have an opportunity for success in probation/treatment.  This apartment is within walking distance to everything, including park n ride for public buses that go everywhere. There is grocery, fast food, etc. Very good location.

So we are going to put offer on it this weekend. It will be owner sale - the owner is my insurance agent and his realtor wife. It just went on market 4 days ago and they already had one offer they have now turned down.

I am in awe. This is answer to prayers. Now to cope with our risk aversion. Will wait until get money for closing - Dh has to get approval from family trust for this amount, and will take some time to convert to cash - to talk with DD about this option for her. So keep on praying.

Also, since we are landlord, we can allow one of the dogs to live with DD, if she cleans up after it. Put that in the lease. Odds of renting quickly are good, given the flood housing impacts. Seems the timing is right and dh has wanted an investment property for a long time.

I could ramble on. Need to keep my hopefulness in perspective. Do not have any control of outcome with DD. Peace in my home, dd safe in her own place working towards her independence goals.

qcr :)

Update: I am a little crazy, and very impatient. Dh gives me pause.  We talked with his sister, that is the trustee for the family trust, and this additional info. has allowed us to slow down. Buying an investment property could not happen on the timeline that would give DD a place to live. And she really needs the space to figure this out for herself.

It is, again, really my need to stop my own pain. And dh's too.

The counselor at PACE did offer that DD will have an opening for the transistion program at the shelter. It is up to her to choose this or choose homelessness. She has to choose to put her whole self into this program for it to be successful. I REALLY HAVE TO STAY OUT OF HER WAY.

So I appreciate my SIL's caution as the trustee. And this gives us all time to ponder all the options. Maybe this could work out later when DD is showing some progress - has a job to pay on the rent first.

qcr

So glad you have slowed down and taken another look at this. You are an awesome mom and I know you have a strong desire to step in and rescue your daughter. Your commitment is admirable and an inspiration to me and I am sure many others on this board.

I am glad you are stepping back and giving your daughter the opportunity to make the choice! I hope she makes the right one. Either way, I think it is important for both of you that she remains in control of the outcome. Like you said "she needs the space to figure this out for herself". Wise words from a wise woman. Stay strong!

 

qcr,

I am glad your SIL gave you cause to think again. I am glad you are able to say to yourself:


Cheers,

Vivek  

I am starting a new thread before this one reaches 4 pages and gets locked. Difficult for me to know how to be validating when DD calls. Please visit my new thread. qcr