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Just paid the retainer for my lawyer to pursue contempt charges against uBPDexh. There are a few charges in regards to our divorce agreement. I feel confident that this is the right action for me, but scared of the process at the same time. Feeling relief to move forward and anxiety about what is going to happen.

Is there any risk, other than the cost of pursuing this?

Has your lawyer told you how this process works where you live, and what you can expect?  For example, will you need to testify in court, or anything else that might add a lot of stress or cost?

I wish more of us would take steps to bring consequences when we're abused, like if someone makes false statements in the legal process.  Usually we just move on and try to leave it behind... .

Other than financial risk, I think the biggest risk is damaging my r/s with S8. We had a great summer, ex didn't take his vacation visitation, so I ended up with son more than I should have and we got stronger. Now, back to the regular schedule and school, our r/s is already being strained. I fear being painted black in my son's eyes by his dad. So, I guess it's not the processes so much that scares me as just starting conflict when things are going ok. BUT, ex has done things that he needs to be held responsible for, and me believing things are "ok" when son is with his dad is denial on my part.

The other risk is the unknown. I don't know what ex will do when he finds out. Things have not been going well in his life lately, and just knowing his thought processes, he's going to view this as me kicking him when he's down and threatening the one stable thing he has in his life - time with his son, even though custody is not being addressed right now.

As a therapist explained to me yesterday, when we tiptoe around and hedge, they end up doing what they want anyway.  Good for you for taking action.  Yes, court is scary.  Yes, you never know if it will trigger anger on the other side.  But you wouldn't have come this far unless your gut told you to do it.  Son will figure it out.  Maybe family counseling?

Yeah, you can't control what he says to your son when you're not around... .

One thing to consider is to pre-empt what your ex might say to your son, by giving your son a very simple explanation of what is going on.  "We have to go back to court, so the judge can decide about some of the issues that didn't get decided yet - nothing to do with you.  When you go to court, you have to tell the truth, and the judge is going to decide if your dad told the truth, and if not he might get fined."  Put it on the judge - it's the judge's decision not yours.  Keep it simple and fair - not "Your dad lied" but "The judge is going to decide if your dad told the truth or not."

Theoretically contempt could mean jail time, but not very much, and that's probably pretty unlikely - more likely a small fine - your lawyer will know.  Probably best not to mention jail to your son.

If you don't tell your son anything at all, that leaves him vulnerable to stuff your ex might say.

The other thing to be ready for is your ex acting out towards you.  :)on't take his calls - let them go to voice-mail.  If he e-mails you, consider whether you really need to respond at all or not.  If possible let everything go through your lawyer - only communicate with your ex by e-mail (not phone or face-to-face) and only about schedules and other kid stuff, not legal stuff.

Super-good idea, not just for this immediate stress, but for the long haul.  A good counselor can spend time with your son alone, and also with you present, and that could be a good time to share difficult stuff with him.  The counselor can also help him gain some tools for dealing with his dad.

My kids' counselor did something interesting:  she identified some things the kids wanted to say to me but hadn't, and helped them work out how to do that, and got them to have those frank talks with me:  ":)ad, sometimes when I'm telling you something important I don't think you're listening - you go back to working.  I want you to stop working and listen and talk with me about it so I know you heard me."  It was up to me to take that well and show that what she was teaching them can work.  Then she encouraged them to do the same thing with their mom - maybe more difficult because she has BPD and some other problems - but the kids had gained competence and seemed stronger.

I think a good counselor could probably help your son that way too.  I found her by first talking with the school counselor, and getting a recommendation, so I couldn't be accused of shopping around for someone who would "take my side".

The disordered ex will do what he or she will want to do - or not.  Your not doing something won't greatly change that.  Your doing something won't greatly change that.  Yes, the ex might get triggered and overreact or project ex's poor behaviors onto you, but that could happen at any time anyway.  So just do what you feel is the right thing to do - or not.

Courts generally are reluctant to give severe consequences at first, until they conclude that prior admonitions fell on deaf ears.  If the judge is reluctant to give financial sanctions, not wanting one parent to feel a winner and the other parent to feel a loser, some parents have suggested to the judge that the sanction go not to the other parent but to the child, that is, the child's college education account.

Standing up for yourself and being assertive are excellent things for your son to see you do. He's at a high risk of being abusive in a r/s if he sees that his dad does it and gets away with it.

Matt's idea about being pre-emptive is also a good idea. It's a tricky situation, and everyone's situation is different, but I decided it was better to explain that it was me making decisions, and the judge's decision was secondary to my action. It was my decision to leave N/BPDx because he was being abusive, my job to keep S12 safe, my decision to end overnights. "I did xyz because your dad and I do not agree, and I decided to go to court because I wanted someone fair to help us solve our differences in opinion."

It's a little different for women than men, I think. A boy raised by a man who is abusive to his mother learns that stereotype from his dad, and can find a bazillion other examples that he is entitled to, and even expected to act that way. Please don't take this as an provocation to start a gender battle here -- I know that men here suffer awful injustices because of female stereotypes. In this context tho, with a mother-son dynamic and an abusive father, I think it's important to model it different than what Matt suggested. 

Letting him know that you are strong, assertive, and holding someone accountable for his abuse is a huge opportunity.

We'll said LnL.

I'm sensitive to being characterized unfairly as "controlling" - a favorite word for some lawyers representing women.

But if your truth is "I decided... .because... .", then more power to you!

I am interested in pursuing this.  However, as to respect Free One's thread I shall look to do so under a separate thread.

My question/interest pertains to pursuing my right to "fight it out in court" (pre se with limited representation) and while in court bringing up the hx of abuse with an agenda of simple

EXPOSURE for the sake of exposure.  If it helps my case so much the better.

So true... .he does what he wants anyway and then I end up angry because he gets to get away with it. It is empowering to take action.

We had a very bad marriage counseling experience prior to the divorce. Ex lied and manipulated T and I ended up damaged from the experience, so I am reluctant to enter counseling with him again. It doesn't work for someone who doesn't really want to be there. Son has seen the same T for the past 2 years. Ex has known this, never asked to attend (except for first visit, and I said no because of our dynamic at the time), and when he has asked about son's counseling, I have encouraged him to contact T himself for all the treatment info - which he has not done.

I really think this is great advice, and I love your wording of it. It has worked well in the past to put the judge in as decider.

There is a catch with this though, in our agreement, it says that neither one of us will discuss the divorce process or proceeding with our son. I'm worried if I bring it up first, ex will use it against me.

I am really good at mostly communicating through email. I carry a voice recorder and do all that kind of stuff.

Very true. There can still be the general stereotype that men are entitled to have submissive women in our society. Unfortunately, I think ex uses this kind of thinking gain son's favor (you don't have to follow mom's rules, because daddy doesn't have rules). Ex is also very degrading to women in general, mostly in sexual ways.

Not sure if you're familiar with Lundy Bancroft -- he has a book called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. Fascinating to read, especially if your ex is high-functioning abusive. He also writes a book called When Dad Hurts Mom: Helping Your Children heal the Wounds of Witnessing Abuse. Excellent stuff in there about how to break the cycle so your kid doesn't repeat what he experienced. By abuse, he means chronic mistreatment. I realized that I was allowing my son to get away with things because he was a kid, not realizing he was displaying patterns he learned from his dad. As a non, I had to assert boundaries with my son at the same time I was protecting him -- not easy! But super important.

Livedinlearned - YES! That is one of the best books I've read. I read it a few months ago; maybe it's time for a reread.

Paperwork is being filed today - 13 counts of contempt. First court day in two weeks. He doesn't know about it yet.

Total mixed emotions of feeling very empowered, scared and anxious.

I did it. I took the first step in standing up to him.

Good for you!

My experience with family counselors wasn't great either - but it all depends on if they have a BS detector or not.

Even if he hasn't been physically abusive to you in the past, it's a good idea to be extra safe now. And prepare for an extinction burst of some kind. He'll be trying to intimidate you in the weeks ahead.

... .trying to get you to go back to the way things were, back into that unhealthy comfort zone.

Thanks. I did have a friend suggest to have an alternate place to stay for the weekend if needed. So far, haven't seen an outburst yet from ex. I am sure he was notified about the contempt because he did leave a VM wanting to speak with Son, and it was dripping with sarcasm. That may change as he has time to consult a L and realizes what he is facing.

One thing I wanted to add, is that I was feeling very anxious about taking action. I was feeling very guilty about doing this and was scared I was doing the wrong thing. I had a great phone conversation with a friend, who does not know what is going on. I couldn't tell her because my son was home and I didn't want to risk him hearing. She just said very kind, supportive things, but in particular, she said I needed to do be putting myself first and taking care of myself. I, of course, have heard this 1,000 times before, but it struck a chord this time. I realized, for maybe the first time ever, I took this action because it is what I NEEDED. The guilt feelings were coming up because I felt bad that it feels good to take action against ex. The guilt was coming up because I was worried action will hurt son (that is what ex wants me to think).

It feels so empowering now that I have shifted my thinking to realize that I am doing this because it is what I need to do. Will it hurt ex? Yes, probably. Will it hurt son? Maybe, but I think the lesson of me taking a stand will counteract that (thanks livednlearned for helping me see that). Does it mean it will be easy? No, but it sure feels easier now that it feels RIGHT.  :)

It's just a few letters but there is a vast difference between needs (normal if within reason) and neediness (unhealthy if excessive).  Ponder that.

Also ponder that as much as you/we feel guilty, there's generally an absence of it with our disordered ex's.  Why should only one feel guilty while also suffering stress of demands and rages, experiencing consequences of past decisions and inaction, etc?

This is huge!

Standing up to someone who can inflict real consequences on you, potentially harming the person you are hard-wired to protect -- that is not for the faint-hearted. That's serious strength.

You're changing the script!  |iiii

Well said. It's a matter of undoing years and years of taking on the undue guilt and being emotionally responsible for another adult. In my case, it feels like I am finally growing up emotionally.

Thank you!

Struggling today again with feelings that I am creating unnecessary conflict for son. I KNOW that isn't true and ex's actions need to be addressed because they are damaging to son. On the emotional level there just isn't that connection yet. I still feel torn.

We are waiting for the court to assign a trial date. Ex is supposedly working with his L to remedy the contempt issues, but on the other hand, he is doing more things that are contemptful.

Well, it's true that setting boundaries can cause conflict. That's why lots of us here avoid setting boundaries. But with BPD, the problem is that if we don't set boundaries, they create different kinds of conflict that make it hard for us to do our jobs, which is to protect our kids from BPD behavior.

Not sure that makes sense.

We assert boundaries, there is conflict, but it's for a larger, more significant kind of protection.

We don't assert boundaries, there is conflict, and we are ineffective at providing larger, more significant kinds of protection.

I think that's why the parental alienation stuff is so toxic, why it's worth reading Divorce Poison cover to cover, and using validation strategies to help our kids figure out on their own how to make sense of all this confusion.

Your situation is really, really tough, because your ex is masterful at manipulating your son with things and experiences.

Did something just happen that created more conflict for your son?

I think we have to ask ourselves, ":)id I create this situation?", and "Am I doing what I believe is right, and doing it for the right motives?"

Remember, it wasn't your choice to be faced with these choices - you're faced with these choices - none of them really good - because of what the other party did.

So if sometimes things get confusing, and you wonder if you made all the right decisions, welcome to the club.  We're handed weird choices and we make the best call we can.  We weren't taught this stuff in school.

I think this is big... .we struggle with this, too.  If we set boundaries, DH's BPD ex is masterful at making DH look like the bad guy to the kids.  But if we don't, we set ourselves up for bigger battles later... .

We are facing this struggle right now and are hoping that the professionals will see it as "setting boundaries" rather than being stubborn and not thinking of the kids.  We hate that the kids will have to suffer some, but we would rather it be a little bit rather than a lot.

I hope that you can find your peace in this situation.  It is way more complicated when you add innocent kids into the mix.

livednlearned, you are always so good at asking the right questions. Did something happen that created more conflict for my son? Yes, it did, but not in regards to my case and nothing I did. Just more changes at dad's house, which causes internal conflict and confusion for son. So, in light of your question, I am asking myself why I feel bad about it. It is nothing I caused and in fact, is more reason why I should feel confident in my actions.

It's a matter of I still hear ex's voice in my head telling me I don't have a right to know what's going on or a right to ask for what I need or, quite frankly, a right for anything. I still hear that tape of "you don't deserve... .you aren't good enough... .you are wrong... .". Ugh. I want to click erase and have them all gone. At least identifying this is a start.

Thanks Matt. You are right, I'm doing this for the right reasons, and I'm making the best decisions I can with the information I have. It's nice to know it's "normal" to feel this way.

Thank you. I think, this will always be my issue - can I ever find peace in a situation where my son is being hurt (emotionally, not physically)?

Yeah, we can't really say to our kids, "That thing your dad did, that sucked. Here's why. Don't you wish you had a different dad?"

But you can look for parallels. S12 and I will watch movies and inevitably there will be something that comes up that is like a situation in his life. Someone pretends to be kind, but isn't. Someone shows vulnerability, and is exploited by someone supposedly trustworthy. I'll say, "That guy is tricky. He says something, and then he does something, but that doesn't match with what his friend is thinking he means. I feel bad about the friend, because he's getting played." I don't preach, and don't even expect a conversation. I just toss it out there as my opinion.

Sometimes S12 will get into it, other times he'll just sit quietly and not say anything. I absolutely believe he is taking my perspective into consideration, even if he doesn't fully understand the connections to real circumstances. 

When there is parental alienation, we have to be so careful that we don't vilify the other parent, but that doesn't mean we can't call out the behaviors when we see it being acted out in movies or parallel situations.

I'm about to start doing this with the triangulation stuff that S12's dad does. You know how it goes, though. It can be so complex it's sometimes hard to find parallels. In my example, N/BPDx keeps asking S12 to do "righteous" things like deliver food to women's shelters. O, the irony. He'll ask S12 to go, then blame me for not letting S12 go. We've been watching Harry Potter movies recently, waiting for Voldemort to hand me my teaching moment  *)

Talking about talking to kids... .

It helped me to read (but not post) on the "Parents With PBD" board - where members talk about what it was like growing up with a parent who had BPD.

One of the common themes is, "I wish my other parent had acknowledged what was going on."  Like if Dad was abusive, and Child said something to Mom, but Mom said "Oh he's just a little tired."  The non-BPD parent often dismissed the child's perceptions and feelings, and the child felt like "Maybe I'm the one that's crazy."

The lesson is, it's super-important to validate the child's own perceptions and feelings - not to impose yours (though it can be OK to share them in appropriate ways) but to hear what the child says, and pick up other signals, and recognize the child's reality.  ":)ad's so mean!"  "It sounds like he said something kind of hurtful to you."  When you say it, in an accepting way, the child sees that her perceptions and feelings are OK, and she doesn't need to keep them hidden or try to change them.  It's up to the adult to change his behavior, not the child to act like everything is OK.

Hard to do, without slipping over into trashing the ex... .

I've been focus more on the tips here. Teachable moments, and it has been helpful. I am working on meditating as well and am feeling in a much better place this week.

The newest in my case is ex is now doing something else that is contemptible. When I asked him to remedy it, he said he will only respond to requests from my lawyer. Lovely. Just spent another at least $50 so my lawyer can ask his lawyer to do something.

If it's something that is way out of bounds, so there can't be any argument about whether it's OK or not, I would probably ask to be compensated for my lawyer's time.  Make it clear that if your ex's behavior, and his refusal to deal with you directly, add to your legal costs, you will expect him to compensate you, and if he doesn't, you'll ask the court to order him to.  (But if you have to ask the court, you'll need to add the extra costs for that process too.)

I'm already asking for him to pay my L fees in the whole contempt process. Still waiting on a court date for the already filed motions. It's just that he is doing things that would be additional counts now.

What does your ex's lawyer say about all this?  Is he trying to reign in his client?

I can't read his L on this yet. From what I understand, she is trying to get him to be compliant on contempt issues. I always wonder how honest he really is with her though. I have the unique perspective on his L because she was the same L a good friend used during her divorce from a possible NPD. It think she's fair and reasonable.

If she is fair and reasonable, maybe your lawyer can show her some information so her perception of her own client will be more accurate.

Here's an example:

The night we separated, unexpectedly, my wife became violent, and tore up all my sheet music - a very childish and out-of-control thing to do.  We both spent that night in jail, and when I got home, my kids had scotch-taped the sheets back together, which was really cute.  The police had written in their report that she tore up the sheet music, but she denied it.  I gave the papers - a few dozen songs - to my lawyer, who showed them to my wife's lawyer, and that helped my wife's lawyer see that she had been lied to - along with quite a few other things - my wife was telling her a bunch of stuff that the evidence showed wasn't true.

Of course my wife's lawyer couldn't say that out loud - she never said, "Well I guess my client is lying and your client is the good guy here."  But she quit accusing me of stuff based on what my wife said, and started working with my lawyer to find solutions, and convince my wife to go along.

Maybe your lawyer can try that too - probably a little at a time - just showing the other attorney information so she can form her own conclusions.  "I thought I would share this with you - it's the sheet music Ms. Matt tore up that night.  The kids taped it back together.  I know there were some different things said about this - maybe seeing it will give you some insight as to your client's state of mind."

I'm pretty sure that's what happened in my case. N/BPDx's lawyer went from advocating hard for him, to withdrawing from the case. I could see during the deposition that his lawyer changed his mind about me. My lawyer said N/BPDx's lawyer was known for being a really involved, loving dad, and he truly cared about the kids in the divorce. When he couldn't reign in N/BPDx and saw his real character, he withdrew from the case.

If your ex has a decent lawyer, and she can't reign him in, she will start to give him guarded advice, especially if she's worried about your son. I know that's what happened in my case -- both the PC and my lawyer told me n/BPDx's lawyer was alarmed by his client. Enough to get off the case.

The problem with the lawyers withdrawing from the cases is all the delays and continuances that results in.

But it is what it is... .better than a lawyer who accuses you of all kinds of crazy stuff, I guess.

I noticed that DH's BPD ex at first was trying to make our lawyer doubt us and our credibility.  Fortunately, he didn't buy it.  Once she realized she couldn't get him to believe her lies, she started spreading rumors through her then-attorney that DH's lawyer and I were intimate together.  It was crazy... .

Kid' BPD mom will be on lawyer #4 by the time we go back to court. Her first one got frustrated with her (was actually overheard in the court waiting area talking to another lawyer about her) and she fired him after round 1 was over. The new lawyer came sweeping in to save her in round 2 and called my fiance "a bully" several times on the stand. She asked for, and got, a judge to order meditation under the thought that her client would be reasonable. When she found out her client actually would not be she and BPD mom got in a big enough argument about it that BPD mom got a new lawyer two weeks before round 3 and was given a continuance. Lawyer number three swooped in to save her like lawyer number 2 had but we never got to even meet this one because she got an early taste of BPD mom's unreasonable behavior and asked to be removed before the new round 3 date.

Round 3 is contempt and custody. I can't wait until she tells a million lies to whoever lawyer #4 is and we give them our evidence two weeks before trial. I strongly suspect he or she will want out at that point so yeah probably another wait. If she is going to go through lawyers like she goes through boyfriends there is nothing we can do but hang on for the ride.

Good advice!

Update here: Ex's lawyer withdrew a couple months ago and ex said he would be pro se. He missed the pretrial conference, then showed up on the trial date asking for a public defender. The judge was obviously annoyed, but granted him the request. BUT the judge also ordered him to pay my attorney fees for preparing for trial, since our time was wasted. A small victory on that front, but the trial will now have to be rescheduled and won't happen for a couple more months.

Glad for the small victory.  These things seem to drag on for months... .