BPDFamily.com

Hi Guys,

There is a lot of talk on here about us being the "emotional leader" in the relationship with our partners with BPD.

My r/s has improved in many ways and he has been in therapy (horray!) for three weeks now. However, I STILL feel as though HE is the leader in the r/s. I do stay calm, use the tools, validate, don't engage so much, look after myself more (got a shiny new job and will be back in my old house within the month) but the r/s still seems to be dictated by him and the BPD traits... .it's a feeling... .

For example:

* His moods seems to dominate the room when we are together - ie,  he is sad and wants to talk - we spend the whole night talking about his feelings. He rages - the next few days are spent recovering from this (him and me) He is happy - we have a great evening.

* We tend to see each other on his timetable due to his up and down moods ie some nights he needs to be alone to "process" things. We do spend most nights together though

* When we are together we seem to do what he wants to do

* He seems completely unable to plan anything with me. He can make plans with his friends occasionally (he still stresses over this) So his friends get the fireworks evenings and camping trips whilst we dont plan anything as a couple. When we have his child we do more together but even then its centrered around his ideas and his mum/friends plans

* He has only met two of my friends and doesnt seem to want to meet any more of my friends (he says he is scared he will say the wrong thing) and he makes excuses when I try to arrange things even a quick cup of tea with them

It's helped writing this stuff down. It looks a bit eggshelly on my part come to think of it  

So the interactions between me and him have got better and I am protecting myself more. I soon start a better job (which he is not keen on due to the sector) as I realise that I need to be able to look after myself independantly of him and I am moving out from a friends back into my old house as I will now be able to afford to live there alone.

Looking at this list and my language perhaps I have actually become better at heading towards being the emotional leader - maybe the points I have raised here are about steering the everyday r/s rather than anything else? In anycase it still feels as though he is in charge of the course of the r/s and I seem to be a bit stuck as to a way to change that aspect.

Hi Connect,

Here's a great link of how to 'stay on the path' posted by UfN.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128184.0

Hope it helps to answer some of your questions and concerns :)

To lead is not necessarily to dominate. It is to knowingly steer. The results of this steering is variable depending on factors out of your control.

A pwBPD may dominate by sheer force of presence, but that dominance is not necessarily steering, hence not real leadership, it is more like a force of nature.

Steering involves direction and balanced purpose. Not the inevitable consequence of overwhelming impulses.

Think of attempting to steer a small boat through a storm. It is not always possible to make headway.

Thanks Pheobe and Waverider :-)

The link on staying on the path is really good - I liked it.

Waverider - what you said rings true. My bf does feel like he is dominating the r/s rather than leading. I have been keeping things more stable on the emotional/connection side of things and looking after my own 50% better and trying to leave his 50% alone a bit more.

As the person better equiped (as a non) to be the emotional leader I would like to introduce some new elements to our r/s. I would like us to hang out with my friends sometimes, make plans together (afternoons out in the countryside etc) and have more of a voice in the day to day side of the r/s not just the emotional side. I feel that this would also be healthy steering and we havent even tried things with my input.

Maybe this is a DEARMAN conversation? I have spoken about this before but although he agrees he should meet my friends / take me out more it doesnt happen. So it carries on his way (lots of nights in watching tv/computer games/him drinking) What to do? He just doesnt seem to WANT to do things like that with me although he will make the effort to do them with his friends sometimes so I know he is capable. Stressy for him then though as he has to put his bouncy public mask on which tires him out.

The way the r/s is I am not really being seen for myself as my world is rather absent from things. Have been riding the storm with the emotional side and have realised that things have slipped into an insuler r/s. I am not being purely selfish here - it would be good if we could have a more even input on what we do. I am kind of amazed at how things are so often on his terms when I am the person in the r/s who is the more stable one?

It's hard to set a boundary on this ie "If you wont go for a walk in the countryside then I will go alone" because the whole point is that I want to do these things with him. I dont know how to get him from "Yes we should do those things i agree" to him actually doing them and without being triggered.

It hurts when I tie myself up in knots gauging when is the best time to bring up a potential plan (sometimes the mere mention of a plan from me will trigger him) and in the meantime he will accept plans from other people no problem.  

I don't know how to get people to do things they don't want to do, either.

If you keep enjoying doing what you want to do either alone or with others, he may eventually want to join in on the fun.

When further along in T perhaps he will see the benefit of increasing some of these activities with you and have better tools for coping with whatever fatigue or anxiety comes up.

But he may not, too.

even In regular relationships sometimes we are never really on the same page about these things and both people have to decide if on balance the r/s works well enough to continue. Introverts and extroverts for example, often have to deal with differences in time or quality of social activities cause they are each quite different in their need.

Ultimately you can lead but you can't make people follow. pwBPD are not good followers, that requires structure, self discipline and empathy towards the needs of others. These are not their strong points.

Meeting their immediate needs and impulses is paramount, they will move mountains to do this. If there is no need or impulse to drive actions they will  often do nothing, this is definitely the case with my partner and the major reason she is low functioning.

So continue to lead, it gives you centering, even if no one follows it will reduce the chances of you heading in the wrong direction

Forget about him being triggered.  This isn't something that really needs to be said to him.  If it's something you truly like doing, then do it |iiii  Bring your camera along, or a guide to birding/wildflowers/mammals/binoculars/a telescope/whatever floats your boat :)

Get out there and truly live the life you want to! 

I hate to keep saying, "I've found that... blah blah blah... .", but it's the truth!  When I started living my life according to my values and interests, he started to believe in the possibilities and that they're endless.  Not only do we take walks now, we plan weekends around them, going to certain places where certain things will be in bloom, migrating, meteors shooting through the sky etc... .  We're nature freaks

Asking him to do something and then being bummed if he says no, doesn't work for me.  He can say 'no' until the cows come home.  If it's something I really want to do, I'm going to do it and he knows it... .now.  It took being willing to do a few things solo to turn him around.  He has learned by my actions that I mean what I say and that I can have great fun with or without him.  I don't guilt or shame him for lack of interest.  I don't expect him to be interested in everything that I am.  And I'm not interested in everything that he is, either.  It's fine!

It starts with baby steps on our part.

If you'd like to go for a walk in the countryside, Connect, by all means, do it!  Maybe pack a picnic basket.

But don't punish yourself by not enjoying yourself, 'cuz he's not with you (or on the same page) at that particular moment.

Lead and most likely he will follow... .

Be true to you!  That is the 'secret' lol

In short someone has to go first and set a new life style as a standard. He is more likely to follow on afterwards if he see's you enjoying yourself first.

No guarantees, but it is the best option, and you don't waste your own life in the process of waiting around.

Hanging around waiting for procrastinating to finish is the big issue for me at the moment that I am trying to modify. How many times have I waited around, done nothing waiting for a promise to be followed through on, and then I have said "I should have known better"... Then do it again. It is very difficult to change your attitude as you keep getting sucked in... Meanwhile life ticks away.

Don't let your life tick away waiting, it's yours to own

So many great things said already  :)

For me, being an emotional leader also means being stable and calm, not jumping on the dysregulation train when it passes. This is where mindfulness (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0) comes in.

Wow - what great posts! Thanks guys! 

I just love these boards - honestly, if this place didnt exist then I doubt I would have got through the last 6 months and looked at my own behaviours so much too.

Seeing all the posts from you guys has made me start to re-think how I have been approaching this. Knowing that you have all had success (or improvement) with this approach too really helps. Of course you are all right in that if I want to do this stuff I should just do it anyway. For the last 20 years I have been taking walks in the countryside, photographing nature and watching wildlife all with previous partners and sometimes with friends. What you said Waverider about not letting your life tick away is very valid. And Phoebe, to know that you partner DID eventually start joining you is good encouragment. And I know Maybeso that your ex also responded well when you took charge of your own life more.

So that's it - that's what I will start doing I think. Will start slowly - an hours walk etc - take some photos to show him - come back with some stories. Might pique his interest and will get me in tune with myself again - something I desperately need to do as I have spent too long pushing my own needs to one side. So I need to shift my attitude a bit too - from "I want to do these things with my bf" to "I would like to do them with my bf but I will do them alone/with friends even if he doesn't" Win win I hope, esp from what you guys have told me.

In a way I wasnt sure if this stuff counted as being an emotional leader (I associated THAT with the tools, calmness, not being sucked in etc as Scarlet Phoenix said) but I can see that there is a link with me being true to myself and my interests and being an emotional leader via this route too. Me standing on my own two feet more, less bowing to his needs and taking some of mine back. Will really try this. Baby steps I think - its wierd how all this stuff I used to do seems almost foriegn to me now and I see it as cloaked in triggers instead of just stuff I like? How did that happen in the space of a year and a half? I'd be a stepford wife if I carried on like that.

I have a night away with my friends this weekend and I havent mentioned it yet as I was waiting for a good time to tell him (I say that phrase too much  ). This sort of behaviour from me shows how things have deteriorated in my own mind. In the old days - I would have told my previous bf without a care in the world - no problem and it wouldnt have BEEN a problem- but with my pwBPD it makes me jumpy. Not a good place to be at - I don't want to be that person. So I have to work on changing it back.

On another note his therapy seems to have been going ok - it's cbt. I didnt call the T and tell him I suspect BPD as you guys thought it would be a bad move and I havent delved about asking too much about the sessions. As it happens his T has spotted some things already that are challenging my bf. He has suggested to my bf that his perception of reality may not always be in line with other peoples so it would seem that the T isnt falling for the victim stories as I worried he would. He is also attempting to steer my bf towards grey rather than black and white. My bf has been trying to use the excercises on situations that upset him with varied results - early stages.

Phoebe I would like to ask you a question about what you said:


I am glad you say things like "I found that... blah... blah... ."!   :) So, how was your r/s BEFORE you started living your life according to your values? Were you fitting in round him? Not bringing up your needs? What did it look like before? And how did you start taking baby steps to get yourself back on track (which then caused him to start to join in) Did you do it gradually? Or wake up one day and say "enough of this,  I am going to be me again"? How long did it take?

I am pleased that you are doing all those things - sounds great 

Good news! Baby-steps

Sounds like a good plan, you have to learn to lead yourself before you can lead for anyone else.

Our relationship was a resentful quagmire.  A controlling-stand off.  I was waiting around for him to give 'us' the go ahead.  My approach was blame-based and I didn't even know it.  I knew his reactions to me were over the top odd, but I wasn't aware enough while in the thick of it to really look at myself or how I was coming off to illicit such responses from him.

I got sick of being told 'no', or given a look of 'how preposterous'!  So it kinda got to the point of 'F you', in my mind.  Why am I even in this relationship?

It got really uncomfortable and I had enough self-shame and blame (and care and interest in him) to wonder if maybe, just maybe I could be contributing to this weirdness? lol

My intentions were good, my delivery was disastrous!

Enter baby steps... .

What are my intentions exactly?  Are they to 'get him to do something'?  Why?  Why do I need him to do something?  I don't!  I can do it on my own, or with someone else... .

So, the approach of not 'needing' him, worked in my favor.  My approach became more of, 'I'd really enjoy blah blah blah, does it interest you?  No?  Okay.'  And I'd do it anyway.  No more waiting around for him to give me the go ahead on how to conduct my life.  It's not his place, it's my own.

Like I said, my intentions were good; they were pure.  I wasn't asking for the moon (I didn't think... .).  But what I didn't realize was that I was inadvertently asking him for permission to be myself   That's pretty HUGE!

When I started to walk my talk, enjoying every step of the way... . He started to believe me because I believed in myself   And it's just grown from there... .

I can't really give you a timeline. It was pretty quick though once my perspective changed.  There was a definite shift inside of me that occurred.

Hope this helps

I experienced this too, and it wasn't dependent on my partner suddenly being "fixed', she isn't. But the extremes just don't seem to be there anymore

How I recognise myself in that! It took some conscious work, but as both Pheobe123 and Waverider I've too felt this shift of letting myself be me, and feeling free to be me, regardless of my partner, no longer trying to adapt my authentic me to him. It required a hard look at myself where I had to realize that it was co-dependent issue for me.

Removing yourself from this enmeshment, or living in their shadows, enables you to look at them with more affection and acceptance, as resentment levels lower and your own life becomes more rewarding as a consequence.

Yup, me three! There was a point of understanding my reality and my limits and the boundary between us.

Connect, I've got a suggestion for you... .you started this thread talking about where you would like to lead this r/s you are in, and the sort of things you would like to do... .and about tools like DEARMAN to try to negotiate a change.

I think Phoebe's approach is much better. Do it one day at a time, one walk in the countryside at a time. Do things yourself and invite him to join you.

Sometimes being a leader is making a big change... .without calling it that, just shifting one thing a at a time. You know where you want to be going, but you don't choose to discuss that. Nothing that you want is bad for anybody, and it is all good for you if you do it... .with or without him!

 GK

Removing myself from enmeshment was key!  Detaching with love.

I think 'detachment' can be misinterpreted here on the Staying Board.  It doesn't mean detaching from our partners for lack of caring or warm feelings.  For me, it was detaching from the unhealthy dynamic that I played a big part in.  We are not each other's keepers.  We are not 'one'.  We are individuals with a whole lot to offer not only each other, but other's as well.  And more importantly, ourselves.

I really 'needed' to detach from him and attach to myself. 

It was scary!  I felt or thought that if I detached from him, I'd lose him.  I had learned that in my FOO.  And on the flipside, when he'd step out on his own, I'd freak out about that too!  He must not care about me, if he wants to do things with other people.  And my mind would conjure up all kinds of icky scenarios of what must be going on with him.

I realized how twisted that line of thinking was, as it sure wasn't helping.

Unenmeshing (detaching), has let me see him and appreciate him and respect him and accept him as an individual, as the really wonderful person that he is   My feelings for him have GROWN as a result.

Baby steps, Connect.  It all starts with us and looking within.

Right on, Phoebe!, I took this sort of path myself. I was in a difficult place, and went on a long silent meditation retreat, which did me a great deal of good. I remember coming out with some real clarity--I really knew and believed these two things:

1. I loved my wife dearly, and always would. (This was the first thing I said to her!)

2. This wouldn't keep me with my wife if our r/s destroying me. I could still take it, but I saw it was costing me, and I knew that I would leave rather than lose myself. (I didn't say anything about this part)

Knowing I would survive if our r/s ended gave me the strength to do things right with her, even in the face of all the unreasonable demands we all know too well around here.

I got another expression of gratitude from my wife last night for the times I just left her to deal with her own crap instead of letting her dump it on me. She had to deal with tough stuff, but was glad now that she had made it through. (My transition was over a year ago. Her big turning point about a year ago.)

This is soo helpful  

I want to write a big reply but am just off for an overnight trip with my friends so will try to get online later. So much of what you guys said just jumps out at me!

Phoebe - what you said:



Yes, yes and yes! Once my bf said to me that I had made him the centre of my universe and it was too much pressure. At the time I couldn't understand what he meant and was upset as I thought that was what you were MEANT to do in a r/s. I took his comment hard as a rejection of my love for him. Now I am starting to see (in light of what you said Phoebe) that he did have a point and my 50% needs some work here... .

Also this:


mmm... .yes again! I'm glad you admitted to how scary that was - I think the same. I am even questioning the timing of this post. Me talking about his lack of plans with me just before I go away for a night with my friends? mmm... hello projection and guilt! From me  lol. Actually I AM finding this scary - me going away for a night on a weekend that he is child free and has other options to go out (when I said I was away he told me he may go to a party). A weekend where I would normally be with him.  A conscious healthy one though. Quite a step for me to arrange this - weird as I have never been like this with other bf's. But I am determined to get some of my life back - so its not all about navigating BPD.


THIS is where I want to be ^^^^^^^

This weekend I am still conscious that I would rather be with him then seeing my friends (!) but I really need to change my behaviours to detach with love to become unmeshed - feels pretty uncomfortable atm !

Anyway this thread wasn't meant to be about me going away this weekend... .but me doing it is in a way me trying to find my feet again. Trying to get back to me. Doing something a bit different in the r/s. I suppose it helps me to be the emotional leader a bit more. I can feel my "control" impulses coming out - needing to be around him to "control" what he's doing. At least I am getting aware of it.

I think I have been waiting around for him to give us "permission" too. I don't know exactly how that is linked to being the emotional leader - I suppose its reactive and not really leading on my part.

Forgive this being a bit jumbled - its very early here! Am focussing on this weekend too much I think rather than what I originally posted about!



ps as an aside I watched "Silver lining Playbook" yesterday. The guy in it is bi-polar and when he has an "episode" the actor really captured the expression I have seen in a BPD rage. Check it out!

"Getting back to you" sounds great!  The reason I crossed out that other part is because sometimes even when we're finding ourselves, we're tying it to our partners.  We end up NOT doing it for ourselves, our hearts aren't in it, because we're doing it with an expectation attached to someone else-- I do this, he'll do that.  The 'relationship' doesn't define who we are;  'I define me'!

It all plays into the 'shift' within ourselves.  The way we carry ourselves.  The words we naturally begin to use that define who we are at our core.  Accepting ourselves wholeheartedly, even our faults. 

He'll still give me a look of 'how preposterous!', from time to time and I'll give it right back.  Or I'll tell him he is absolutely hilarious and LET IT GO.  I am not afraid to lose him.  I don't want to lose him, I definitely want him in my life, but my behaviors aren't geared around that anymore... .  The 'fear' of losing him.  Where I cling and act all crazy and weirded out.  Over what?  A difference of opinion? 

We have to know our own boundaries.  And even if they're crossed, "it" doesn't 'make me' act all crazy and weirded out.  I make myself act crazy.  I can choose to not act crazy.  I am not 'crazy' at my core.  I'm pretty level-headed, therefore my behaviors indicate that fact.  But even still, sometimes I act a little bit crazy and I own it.  I realize it's me.

I can sometimes feel it coming on (my own craziness), so I take a step back and 'choose' not to see him because I'm edgy for whatever reason-- work stress, tired, pms'ing, things piling up, etc... .  So, I take care of my side of the street.  Take care of myself.  Knowing this about myself has given me a better perspective of what's going on with him when he 'chooses' not to spend time with me = he's regrouping!  It's human to need to regroup, reenergize.

If I tell him I'm feeling stressed about things piling up, you know what?  He'll offer to help; he's a sweetie!  I appreciate his help.  There are times though that I just need to be by myself, and it has nothing to do with him or us.  The same goes for him.

I think I'm beginning to babble and ramble... .  My point (I suppose), is that not everything about our existence is tied to our partners, even though I used to want to make it so--  I'm in a bad mood?  I'll attach it to him.  I want to go to the museum when he doesn't... .his fault!  He doesn't want to see me?  He must be screwing someone at work.

What a weird and paranoid reality I used to live in.  Blah, no wonder we had so many issues lol  Why would I 'stay' with someone who I really thought would be doing all those things, making my life miserable?  I wouldn't!  He was not making my life miserable.  I was.

That's not to say he doesn't do things that piss me off, he does.  My reactions to them aren't do or die, black or white anymore though.  They're just things and we deal with them.  No big deal.

So, how was your weekend with your friends?  Did you enjoy yourself?  Hope so!   

Phoebe you talk a lot of sense  :)

The weekend was good thanks. Nice to see my friends. Very low key - nice hotel, dinner then back to the room to talk - lots of catching up. I did enjoy it  :)

How you describe this... .


... .is unfortunately how I am feeling right now. Not so good! I am linking a lot of stuff to him as when I was away he only answered one of my two texts (not giving anything away his end) and ignored the one I sent 10pm Sat night. So immediately in my mind I went to "Well he must be out at the party chatting up women" I just hate how I keep going back to this place... .  I have been used to much better relaxed contact with previous bf's where you each know what the other is doing and a phone call/text doesnt have so much riding on it like "well I've told him what i'm doing but he has not told me what he's doing etc and I think THAT'S deliberate to either keep me guessing or because he is doing something I wouldn't like".

I am seeing him in an hour and have a horrible churning stomach as I am quite frankly worried that he will tell me he went to a wild party or did something that I will feel uncomfortable with. Oh dear. This is a feeling I have quite often when we havent seen each other for a few days and have had limited/no contact. I don't seem to be able to relax until I know what happened his end. And quite often his end has involved the plans/socialising with others that doesn't happen with us.

It feels like a step back in my thinking. It makes me wonder if I will ever get better at this? Makes me wonder if I am CAPABLE of being the emotional leader at all! I don't think this is all me though as the friends I was with had constant contact with their partners (as I used to have). I wonder if I do actually need better communication in a r/s? Or am I being all co-dependant? Need more radical acceptance that he doesnt do this? Arghhh!

Maybe I am just being a bit disregulated all on my own here atm. Nervous. I could feel myself getting more wound up the nearer I was to getting back home. This is all mixed up in my head with being the emotional leader, co-dependancy, valid points on communication in my opinion, trust issues, me doing something separate from him and him being able to make plans with others and not me. . A few days ago I felt I was getting somewhere with my thought processes but it feels hard again now. Not to say I dont get what you guys have all said (I really did!) but I can't seem to reach that place of calm I was in a few days ago... .

I so wanted to post that everything was good and I was happy and calm etc - that doing something for me made me feel great. I should feel this - but my nerves about seeing him have now taken me back to the bad place... . 

Connect, maybe it would be best to not see him today?  Call him and tell him you're feeling pretty tired and not up for it today?

Also, you're not with your previous boyfriends anymore.  If everything was so wonderfully relaxed with them, why aren't you still with one of them?

  Connect.  You are so transparent & thoughtful about your struggles to get on solid footing with respect to this r/s -- it's always enlightening to hear your "on the one hand, but on the other hand" full picture.

What you're writing about right now really resonates with me.  I may start a separate thread about it: basically, the line between radical acceptance, giving space etc., and the damage that it does to accept things that are genuinely hurtful.  I've asked that same question several different times over the past year -- it seems to be the thing I have the most trouble with on Staying.

In my case, my spidey senses say that my exbf is actually doing something I find hurtful.  Being emotionally intimate with me in the gaps while he explores and develops a new r/s with another woman.  Giving him the space to do that while remaining so emotionally accessible to him doesn't feel cool to me.

In your case, my impression in recent months is that there is no evidence he is actually exploring any competing relationship, but that you are seeing him behave differently with others than with you -- e.g., making plans -- and that hurts because it feels he is not prioritizing you.

And then it feels like there is another layer where you'd be OK if you were not so enmeshed in the r/s, but you still want him to be enmeshed, because if he is not, it feels like the secure basis for the r/s is called into question.

I feel like Phoebe's approach is the best possible antidote to the third set of feelings.  Understanding that enmeshment is not actually a secure basis for a r/s, not at all, and that ironically, making clear that you are not threatened by him living his life at times separately from you is a good way to create security and enjoyment for you both.

The middle area -- where there are specific things you want that are reasonable and that he denies you while giving them to others -- seems more problematic to me.  That seems like an area of DEARMAN work, possibly.  Because the line between letting him live his life, and join you if he wants, vs. being treated like a doormat while others are treated well ... .seems like an important line.

My area -- letting him have a great deal of emotional access to me with no expectations or obligations whatsoever, and when I have no reason to think he isn't exploring the same thing with someone else, when I know I don't want to be in anything ressembling an open r/s -- also seems very problematic -- and I will go explore that on another thread.

I'm interested to see how you work this feeling through & how you end up handling it.

Hi friends,

Connect      P&C 

I'm glad you started this thread Connect.  I'm learning so much from it too. 

Is it possible the trust issues from the ex gf are lingering Connect?  How do you feel about that now? 

I know I struggle with this, if there has been a breach of trust with regards to fidelity (emotional or otherwise), it can be a hard issue to get past.

And frankly should we if our partner has given us reason to question it due to their past behavior and possible BPD related issues?

Have you dealt with this in the past with your guy Phoebe?  I thought I'd remembered you bringing up this subject in the past but don't want to make assumptions about what I thought I'd read in case I'm wrong.

I too enjoy reading your input Phoebe, it's like a breath of fresh air to me.   

I'm recognizing my own co-dependent tendencies, boundary issues, etc and trying to work on them.  Trying to find and focus on my own happiness as well regardless.  Right now I'm dealing with anger from him breaking boundaries to the point where I can't bring myself to do the lesssons.  So, I'll probably be starting a post to get ideas on handling that in a more productive way.

I've dealt with all kinds of things with my guy in the past and still do!  I suspect he has untreated BPD, there are going to be things to deal with.

As far as infidelity, I used to spy on him, never caught him (and I'm a pretty thorough PI lol).  In my mind (feelings = facts), he must have been though and I'd behave as if he had-- withholding affection, being bhity, absolutely not committing to anything because of my own fears.  One foot in, one foot out.  Cling, but not really present.  I'd whine to friends that I think he's seeing someone, probably posted about it on here, anyone who was willing to listen to me I'd subject them to it, to my fears... .

I've relaxed, whew.  My behavior contributed to a lot of our problems.  It wasn't all him.

Gah.  This makes me squirm uncomfortably.  

OK, Phoebe, though.  Let's just say ... .that your guy had a known history of overlapping relationships.  And a known history of reaching out to other women with whom he had a past sexual/romantic connection, in the midst of your r/s.

I think Seashells, Connect & I are all in that boat.

This is where the line between self-preservation, boundaries and not being a doormat, on the one hand, seem to run headlong into the awesome openness and acceptance you display on the other.  I do get that, ironically, the openness and acceptance could very well be the antidote to their feeling that they need to reach out to these other sources of affirmation.  It may lessen engulfment fears, it makes you attractive, and I think we all know that once people know they have freedom, they may be less likely to want to demonstrate to themselves or others that they can use it.

Yet.  Sailing along with this blithe, affirming, openness, when a voice in your head that is not lacking in foundation to have these fears, says "there may be something else hurtful going on," seems so risky.

Again, Connect, I don't pick up any reason to think your bf is exploring seeing someone else, from any of your stories recently (do you?)  In my own story, I dunno if I have reason to think that or if it's just my residual trauma picking up any and all evidence that could support the inference of betrayal (very BPD of me, actually).  Or if this is me being smart and not naive.

But regardless of the particular facts at any particular moment, I am wondering how we know when we've reached territory where being open and accepting is dangerous and an invitation to doormat status?

For me, it would be if my needs within the relationship were still NOT being met, AFTER becoming comfortable within myself.  I was so not comfortable within myself, I knew something wasn't right with me, just couldn't put my finger on what it was... . 

Someone once asked me, "What do you want?", after a bhit session.  I couldn't answer the question without it revolving around his faults.  I knew I had a problem when I realized I sounded exactly like my mother lol

Sorry Connect, don't mean to hijack.  How has your day been?

FWIW-  I don't think you're hi-jacking, and hope I'm not either.

Seems to me the conversation is very relevant to all points from the beginning; this is about how to take the emotional lead.

I relate to so much of your past handling of the relationship Phoebe; see a lot of myself in the description.

We all have our stuff to look at.  I appreciate all of your posts, as well as Connect, P&C, WR, Maybeso, and so many others here, I apologize for those I'm neglecting to mention.  There are many.

Hi Guys

This thread is so good - there are so many things being said that I have found very hard to articulate. P&C - you made an accurate assessment of my r/s btw!

I will be quick as am at work. I have lots more to add and will come on later to talk more about what you guys have been saying (which is such great stuff) but I wanted to ask you guys a quick question and ask for your honest-no holds barred responces:

Ok here goes... .After some delving by me he said he did go to the party. Much of the evening he spent talking to two separate women. The first one was a single woman he had quoted a job for. She was flirting with him (he thinks) offered to buy him a drink and he declined - they had a long chat. Second one was his someone's wife/gf - she was "all over him" he said - he later changed this to "she was just friendly and intense". He also told me the barmaid had big bre*sts (he said he told me this as I asked for detail so he will give me detail) The next morning his female neighbour knocked on the door (she is a sexy lesbian girl but wants a baby and has become seductive round him since revealing this to him) He told me he answered the door just in his underwear. (He knows I hate this and I have asked him not to but he has no inhibitions - and as a man first thing in the morning is not the best time to be wondering around just in your underwear if you tend to wake up "excited"... .) he went back to bed and later went round her house and did some work for her in her garden as she had asked him to help. (she loves knocking on his door for help when I am not there and he def has a crush on her)

So I wont dilute this post by talking about my responce and dysregulation due to me asking blah blah -  but what do you think? This is EXACTLY what I mean by the sort of things that happen and the stories I hear after time apart. You cant be hung for them, but do you think HONESTLY that I am nuts for finding this stuff uncomfortable? Honestly - is it me? Am I over jealous?  

As an aside - my previous partner of 14 years used to go out clubbing with his friends til 4am once a fortnight or more. I didnt have any problem with this so it's not as though I was this jumpy before.

I think you're overly-involved with someone who isn't.   

I think he is attention-seeking and possibly to some extent was willing to make you jealous since you stepped out with friends without him.  If you could simply accept as an article of faith that he is not going to take it further, maybe it wouldn't have to be an issue.  Do you have reason to think that he would take it further?

And is the very fact that it occurs and he is not trying to soothe your fears but almost the opposite, what is causing your hurt?  Not what it could lead to, but the fact that he doesn't care to avoid it in the first place?  That's hard, if so.

The behavior reminds me a lot of MaybeSo's stories of her guy while they were together.  Producing frequent low-grade anxiety that made it very hard to relax in the relationship when she was aware of it going on.

Hey connect,

I have been where you are.  It's really yucky and I vowed to never go there again.  I am basically where Phoebe is with my SO.  But, my guy is also a good-looking charmer who loves to flirt, has a hard time being alone, and admits to a pattern of constantly looking for "the new shiny ball" to soothe his abdonment fears when we are close.  So I have come a loong way and it has been a hard, hard road to emotional detachment.

Some elements that have helped other than detachment:

I naturally have an avoidant attachment style, so being "an individual" in the relationship is pretty easy for me.  My SO finally understands that I am kind of reclusive and need private time to reenergize.  I finally accepted that he is going to fill those spaces with social stuff and I don't have to know all the details.

He is honest.  So his impulsivity and other-directed ways of soothing makes him kind of untrustworthy.  But his integrity and vulnerability with me makes up for it.  Even though he might be reluctant to be honest b/c he fears my disapproval, we can talk about it, I assure him it's ok, and it comes out.

He is dx'ed, has done some recovery work and it now in CODA.  He can at least "talk the talk" with me (I am kind of in that business anyway) and I accept that he may never be able to "walk the walk".  I accept what this is, right now, in the moment; b/c like Phoebe said: my new, heathy self is getting it's needs met.

So I think your dude was telling you:  "See this is what happens when you leave me.  I go off and interact with several women who all would just drop everything just to hook up with me."

It's a way to control you so the chances of you leaving is reduced, IMO.

What do you think?

So you are on this self-exploration journey and just got a little derailed.

What would the old connect do?

What is the new, improved connect going to do?

Take care :)

^^This^^ is actually where the good nuggets of insights about ourselves come from... .

Connect, it seems like you're fanning the flames of dysfunction.  If he knows he's going to get some excitement out of these exchanges between you, hey, he's going for it!

If you're wanting this kind of thing to stop, don't feed into it by giving it more energy.  :)on't 'delve' and 'ask for details' about something you know is going to upset you.  Were you invited to this party?  Isn't one of things you're wanting to change, the things you do together?

Why would he invite you (to do certain things) when he gets to relive it (his way... .) after the fact, with an exciting unhealthy dose of drama to boot?

I would be so blasé about it, while doing something super special for myself.

Disordered people get away with crap because we accept it.  :)on't accept crap.

Awesome discussion.  For me, having some healthy detachment and being an emotional leader isn't the same thing as "live and let live."  It's more about maintaining my own identity, and keeping some perspective on my wife's emotion of the moment.    

If anything, keeping some emotional perspective helps clarify my boundaries in the relationship.  

Acceptance should not be confused by denial of your own rights to feel pain and distress.

You have to really work on, and know, yourself in order to set your levels for Boundaries/Acceptance/Interaction.

Know your own pain and what is unhealthy, and what is simply just confusion.

It does not matter if your fears are "irrational' on the surface, they are still real. Do not fake acceptance. Genuine Acceptance is a great place to be in. Faux acceptance is the seed of resentment. Which in turn is a relationship killer.

Hi Connect and everybody else here too! 

I am on the road so I'll just jump in here briefly to touch on something p&c as well as some others have touched on... .And that is the sort of side topic to this that is about r/s status and if the connection as such is mutual or unbalanced too apart from issues on what to do together or not so to speak... .

As most of you know I am currently separated from my ex BPD guy, and we are nowadays in a for me much more acceptable friendship compared to our for me stressful r/s... .And seeing the difference between those two different statuses has made me realize a few things about myself, but also some things about why it is sometimes very hard to follow the very good advice that often are given from many of you who live in long term and committed relationships w pw BPD... .

First of all, the level of the disorder does of course matter when it comes to the ability to even begin to create a committed r/s in the first place... .

But the most important factor that I think makes it difficult for people like myself as well as p&c and to some degree even to connect is that we are or in my case have been struggling already with whether or not it really is a relationship!

I think there is a huge difference in if you can say that there is a mutual understanding of both parties that they are in a r/s or if one party is sort of jumping in and out of it all the time so to speak. Since then all other issues automatically puts the very r/s on the stand all the time... .

I may be rambling here... .But to me there is a difference in whether or not me and my partner want to do a certain thing together or not one day or if we are going to see each other  at all the next weekend or perhaps not at all in the future and if that is sort of the issue all the time. Or if it is always a matter of the other person to decide if we are to see each other at all or not... .The need to define the r/s status then becomes very easily a big thing and colors everything else and the eggshell dance is on... .

That is in a way a different problem from whether or not out partner wants to join in on some weekend activity or not so to speak... .And it makes it a bit harder to find the strength in oneself to make the decision everyday of whether or not we are a couple, compared to whether or not we are going to the movies on Friday together or not... .

What I have learned from my own r/s with my ex bf is that his fear of loosing me was so big that he didn't dare to fully commit to having a r/s with me, hence he did all sorts of weird things to push and pull. And our r/s status were sort of always on the line in everything! And that made it very hard for me to both keep boundaries as well as make sure I did what I wanted, since compared to not being with him at all, most things I would normally like to do sort of lost its allure... .It is toxic and very unhealthy, but at the same time very human that we react that way. And I can so relate to both connect and p&c in their respective struggles to find any value in doing stuff by themselves, since underneath while doing all that stuff for themselves lurks the uncomfortable feeling that is the same as the ones most of us have experienced in the beginning after a painful break up... .When we sort of try to have fun, but we are not, because inside there is grief and pain... .Only it feels like that all the time, since the r/s is insecure!

However! And this is important I think! Detachment is the only way to go regardless! We need to detach in order to get our own needs met. And living long term in a r/s that is not a fully and committed relationships is I believe one of the most painful places a person can find themselves in... .

The painful thing about taking the route of detachment is that then we also have to be able to dare to face the possibility of the r/s actually coming apart. That is the tough part, since we cannot make another person do what we want them to, and if us detaching means they will do the same, then that is a consequence we will then have to be ready for... .However that is at least a pain with an end... .And not an everlasting insecurity... .

What I am trying to get across here is, it does take two to tango, and some people w BPD depending on both the level of the disorder, potential treatment and also life circumstances are able to function in a r/s with a partner who also can upkeep their boundaries and take care of themselves. And then the r/s will work... .

But if the level of the disorder is severe and or circumstances in life makes it hard for the pw BPD to commit due to whatever reason, then it becomes harder for the partner... .

And ultimately we need to decide how hard a life we want to have and how much of ourselves we truly are willing to sacrifice without loosing ourselves completely... .

Paradoxically I can now through my friendship with my ex BPD guy see how much he has been and still is struggling with both himself and his feelings for me... .He still wishes we could be together but he realizes he has problems that makes it impossible at least now, in his mind. When we were together he could not see his own part in things at all... .He treats me way more respectful now and we can talk about things that were impossible before. Of course that is due to the fact that when we are not together his abandonment fear is not constantly triggered, and that also makes it easier for him to contemplate seeking out help, since he can in a different way see how his problems and conflicting emotions are still there, even though I am not, and therefore cannot be blamed for it... .

But it is also first now that I am able to see how affected I became in this whole mess... .And most of all how virtually impossible it was for me even to address in any real and honest way what I really wanted... .Since doing so meant loosing him... .But the way to radical acceptance also meant facing that possibility too... .And today I am glad I did. It's not like I don't have any feelings for him anymore... .I do, but I realize that where he is now, a r/s is simply not possible without me loosing me two... .Ad two lost souls can't tango very well... .That's for sure... .

And just like Waverider says here: we cannot fake acceptance! Or use it as a means to make the other person change to our advantage! That is very very important!

Therefore it can not be looked upon as a method or a tool to be an emotional leader... .We need first and foremost to be emotional leaders in our own lives! And then whomever wants to follow, may... .But we cannot make anybody do so by our actions... .They can however choose to because of our actions. But that will never happen if our actions or motives to begin with are fake... .

So taking charge of our own lives the way Phoebe so often describes so well also comes with a price, and that is to be willing to take the eventual consequence of the other choosing not to follow... .

Finally I would like to add the perspective that it is difficult to keep and maintain a r/s with an emotionally unstable person, and in order to make up for the imbalance they bring to the table, the healthy partner needs to be ultra stable so to speak... .Taking it that far may not be necessary in a r/s with an emotionally stable person, which may sometimes be important to consider too... .In a r/s with a more stable and healthy person it is more "allowed" or ok to fall in and out of being needy and weak on one hand and strong and self sufficient on the other... .Both partners will contribute and help balance and even things out... .In a r/s where one part is emotionally unstable that will not happen... .

Confused ramblings here on my part I believe... .But I am temporarily a bit preoccupied with a big move and a lot of traveling... .After this week is over things will finally get back to normal on my end... .Ad hopefully my posts too... .

Best Wishes to you all in the meantime!

Scout99

Scout -- fascinating post.  Thank you.  It's gratifying for me to hear you explain that your exbf expressed that his fear of losing you is so great that he cannot try to be in a commitment r/s with you.  But that he is paradoxically more able to explore respectful connection with you as "friends." This is exactly the dynamic with my ex, though he never explained his sudden insistence on "friends only" when we reconnected after almost a year of NC, so I am interested to hear about your arrangement and how you got there.  I cannot express how much more lonely & miserable I would be trying to deal with this without y'all on this board.

Connect, back to your particular situation ... .I really do see his shenanigans at that party as possibly harmless (in the sense that it will lead nowhere & he intends it to lead nowhere) payback for you going out alone.  But do you have ongoing bad feelings about the possibility of him crossing a line that matters to you, in terms of engaging with other women?  Or is it the very fact that your partner is responding to you doing something healthy by engaging in what reasonably could be viewed as hurtful behavior, the thing that is hurting you (not just the prospect of him actually getting involved with someone else)?

Hello  - I'll tell you what guys, this thread has been really great   Been reading it at work whenever I can x

I will write a proper post asap when I can get on for longer (am going out in a min)x thank you all for your help x

I would also say that learning and putting to use everything on this site has been a HUGE factor in improving my interactions with my SO.

Scout, you posted some really good stuff.


BPD's are going to be jumping in and out no matter what.  They may physically be staying, but their mental construct of their partner and the relationship is changing rapidly.  What makes this manageable is our level of acceptance and our partners ability to talk about their experience with us.  If it can't be brought out into the open, it can be a mindfck for us.




YES Scout, you nailed it.

This is why we have to work on us, untangling ourselves from this chaos. Until we become stable and centered it is had to accept this reality. The reality that we can't 'fix" it, the reality that we can't maintain a high level of alertness to always provide perfect reactions always. It is always likely to be dysfunctional.

Once we get to this point we are in a position to properly access our ultimate choice that Scout99 is pointing out. Whether we stay or not it will be a choice based on reality. living a life by educated choice, rather than default, makes the sun shine a whole lot brighter and brings with it a greater capability of Acceptance.

In short learning to accept reality and yourself comes before being completely ready to accept anyone else.

Hi guys,

Started a long post yesterday but needed to go out so didn't finish it.

The discussion here is great.

Phoebe I wondered what you meant by your reply to my comment?



Did you mean that me talking about the dysregulation is something I should be focussing on more? Forgive me if I am being a bit dumb here - I just couldn't work out what you meant and as you are so insightful I would like to know  :)

Am a bit exhausted here - lots of heavy work stuff going on as well as other things which isn't ideal atm. Also my bf had another rage the night before last and I ended up crying. It was over me hesitating when I answered a question. He said it meant I was lying or following a script in my head as I didn't just come out with what I wanted to say as he does (with no filter). He then started on the whole "I would rather be alone then with someone who edits what they say to me" stuff. I let him be and self soothe and carried on as normal. He then apologised. Then retracted the apology. Then he did his therapist's exercise of seeing it from my point of view. Then apologised again with a hug and explained that a hesitation before answering a question is a trigger for him as his father used to be like that with him and it bought back old stuff for him. So good the therapy is working as there was a quick recovery. I told him I wouldn't see him last night so we could have a rest. It was pretty exhausting though.

So that's where I am atm    

Also wanted to add that I also agree with some of the comments about the difficulty of the r/s status. The uncertainty of this can lead to every little problem becoming a potential r/s ender/redefine situation and hence make us nons more touchy about the dysregulations.

If I felt my bf and I were on the same page ref the r/s then the problems wouldn't feel so big in my head perhaps.

Scout you said:


Your answer Rossanadanna was good:


This exchange speaks to me A LOT. The circumstance is like mine and the answer is good. Its spot on with my situation. So perhaps I should talk about this situation more? Its something I have been scared to touch on in a way - his actual experience of jumping in and out. From the outside we see each other all the time (practically living there) BUT from the inside it doesn't match how it looks.

He has tentative plans again with his friends this Saturday night (if he can get/wants to get a babysitter). I think this is becoming a touchy subject for me now. Like others get the "fun" side of him going out and the commitments to plans.  

Also (when he disregulated over my "hesitation" he told me he is completely open with me and I don't tell him anything. So untrue when I only heard about his plans as I overheard a chat with his friends. Goes back to me just focussing on myself and my plans again I guess. Its so hard. I think when I have my base back again (I get my flat back at the end of the month rather then basing myself at my friends house) then things may get a little easier for me - I will have my own place to think about.

Also a reminder that when he is dysregulated, your best bet is to not be there--you will just get pissed at the things he says, pretty much guaranteed!

As Grey Kitty says, don't be around dysregulation.

And don't instigate it! lol

Connect, you were feeling a little funky about going over there after the party night.  You were already ready, ya know?  It's good to take a step back when we can recognize in ourselves, our own dysregulation of sorts.  

You have a lot of really good insights into your own behaviors already.  Put those babies into action/inaction, for the good!