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My dBPDw just told me that she was taking the kids to the movies tomorrow.  That is I am not to go.  We have done this monthly tradition for the last 2 years.  I want to go ... .but don't want to make things worse.

For the last 8 weeks she has not spoken to me much and has said she is getting a divorce after the birth of our child.  I see this as her further trying to emphasize that she doesn't see us as a married couple.  

What are your thoughts?  

All4BVM, I know you're in a difficult place right now with you're wife putting a lot of pressure on you to cut you off from your family and threatening divorce. I can't be easy on you, handling all of this and being present for your children as well.

My guess is that it's tactics from your wife's side, to get you to back down. What do you think the children would like you to do? Is she going with all of them? Maybe go for them, is my thinking. Do you think she will take it out on the children in some way if you go?

We're here for you!

Thanks for the input Scarlet Phoenix and support.

Yes I think the kids would think it would be odd that I didn't go.  Yes all kids going to movie.  I am anticipating and somewhat anxious on how I may respond to my BPDw calling me out in front of the kids and her saying ' I don't want you to go, This time is just for me and the kids.  You can pick a different time to take them, we are not a family.'   

Do I push the issue and go anyway ... .even taking a different car.  Or do I turn away and stay home knowing I will feel belittled, sad, and separated. 

I say go, be there for the kids, maybe have some good moments with them, and prepare for all eventualities. Separate car sounds like a good idea. Thinking up replies beforehand to her reactions. She might very well call you out in front of the kids. Being concerned for others welfare when there's a strong immediate need (getting you to back down) is not a pwBPD's strong suit.

What do you see yourself saying if she calls you out?

Makes a scene at the movie theatre?

It would be when leaving for the Movie Theatre. 

Well below is not my first response... .glad I am rehearsing it. 

I see my self saying.  "I realize that it may make you uncomfortable but I want to be there with/for the kids.  We enjoy that time together.  I am going"

Anything I am saying or not saying that could make things worse... .?

You states your truth clearly  |iiii

Maybe tweek a little to not sound defiant?

"I realize that it may make you uncomfortable but I want to be there am here for the kids.  We enjoy that time together.  I am going

These are minor tweeks, it's important that it stays your words, too. And the way you say it - calmly, eye contact, confident body language (shoulders back, head up) - count as well. Deep breaths!

You could also open with a sentence stating support and empathy first, it might help your truth go over more easily. It's no miracle cure, but people generally likes to feel heard, which is what this does.

Suggestion (and feel free to redo it any way you like!):

Support: Special time with the children is important to you, and... .

Empathy: ... .I realize that it may make you uncomfortable if I go.

Truth: However, I'm here for the kids. We enjoy movie time together, all of us.

Then proceed with whatever you were doing to get ready to leave.

Thank you!

So this is the text I just just got tonight at 11.50 pm from the BPDw.  I don't know what to do.  Stick with original plan or do what she is telling me to do. 

--------------------

I'm taking the kids to the movie tomorrow.  U r not invited.  I hope I'm pretty clear. I don't want to have any arguments with u tomorrow, specially in front of the kids. Better don't bother me.

Even though we live in same house she has been texting me usually when she could come to the room and tell me.  b

Two thoughts:

1. Don't reply to that by txt. Emotional conversations go badly that way. If you are going to discuss this with her, face to face is better.

2. She is clearly upping the ante and making threats about it.

She is also trying to shift reality on you--she's telling you that if you go, there will be a fight in front of the kids. And she's going to start it, but she's trying to tell you that it your fault not hers.

My suspicion is that if you give in on this, things will get worse, not better.

The other choice is setting a boundary that you will not let her keep you away from your children, and that is pretty much what you were planning, and Scarlet Phoenix tweaked.

I can't answer for you, but I would ask: How has giving in on things like this worked for you so far?

The issue is not about going to the movie with the kids. If you make a big issue about this instance it will be, and you will end up moving away from the underlying issue. Making it harder to deal with the real problem.

I would not go, but make it perfectly clear that you would like to, then organize something else you can do with the kids.

She knows this is triggering for you, that is why she is doing it. It will also make it less fun for the kids.

Thank you for your input grey kitty and wave rider.  Both different ways to approach the problem

Waverider wgst did you mean it is not the underlying problem.  I guess things seem so foggy that I am not certain what the uproblem underlying problem is.

     

A point if interest.our family was invited to go to our pastors house for dinner last night.   My BPDw did not go.  I went wuth all kids.  Before leaving I asked her are you coming.  She said NO and dont ask me these types of questions unless you want to fight.   

So maybe she feels I did my thing with the kids now she can do her thing.   

I had a similar situation with my h right before my 10 yr old left to sleep away camp for 8 weeks. I was told I'm not welcome to come. The difference was wasnt a weekly family outing to the arcade. When I tried reason, and question as to why ? It only made things worse. my son ended up going to bed crying , after my h said "if you go I won't",

Since my h spends so little time with our son. I rethought it. Got my son out of bed calmed him down told him it would be ok , and I would be ok ... It took some talking ,hugs and reassuring . I then took myself on a walk through the park and  to a movie ( I had to drag myself ) and of course when my h came home - his whole mood had shifted.

I don't think it was right , or the right way to handle it . But I feel like sometimes ( at a cost to myself) I take the path of least resistance to avoid more pain for my child and I know that the problems Will not be corrected in that moment or with that situation.

And I feel it's better to wait for when I can be heard, or a therapist can get through to him

Instead of creating more bad will and fights in front of the kids.

I'm a newbie to the BPD knowledge but I know when kids are involved there needs to be some type of damage control for them...

I'm just starting to learn , but they are in much more pain at this difficult situation than we are ...

Hey, All4BMV, I logged off before I saw your last posts. How are you doing today?

Scarlett Phoenix  thanks for checking in. Woke up this morning made breakfast for the Family. Wife left with kids in the car. Kids asked me if I was going to go. I just went in the other car and met them at the cinema. Wife did not say anything. I did not respond to her email text nor did I have any conversation with her this morning nor last night. So there was not any openly hostile conflict. I am glad I didn't go because I would felt very separated from them if I didn't

thanks again for checking in

Thank you for the update. I think this went as well as possible considering the circumstances. Good job on not taking the bait on the text message  |iiii

The underlying problem is whatever is causing your wife to feel this way. Not saying that will be easy to discover or rectify. As you say it is all probably a bit foggy, adding another drama about going to the cinema or not just makes the fog a little thicker.

Well the wrath of my decision to go with my my wife yesterday evening.  It happened as I was leaving for my 25 class reunion (which was going to go with me before the all the events from 6 weeks ago starated). 

She came into the room and blocked the door so I was not to leave.  She was very upset that I chose to go to the movies.  She stated that she told me not to go but I disrespected her wishes.  She stated 'my life is not to have you in it and I told you not to go.  You can do your thin  gs with the kids and I will do mine'.   I attempted to begin my SET response and she didn't want to hear any of it.  She said next time I do that she will make a scene.  I said the kdis invited me to go and she said that didn't matter.  She sated she is going to tell the kids that we are separting and getting a divorce so they wont ask those qusetions again.  I tried the SET response again and got a little farther however she said that it is to late for my empathy. 

Although she was very upset, she did reiterate that since I made the choice of my family over her, we were not a family.  She said that I made the decision to break the marriage up.  She is much happier not having to deal with me or my family.  When I hear that I still have the lingering feeling of second guessing my boundary. 

I told her I understood and asked to pass.  She was blocking the door.  She said NO and then she brought up a cople of other off topic issues she was mad about.  One topic was that she didn't like the electrician that I contracted that day to help with an electrical probelm.  A second issue was that a mutual friend of ours commented that she would miss my wife at the BPDw and hope she started feeling better.  My wife told me I need to start telling everyone that we are separated and getting a divorce. 

I told her that I wanted to pass through the door.  i ended up having to open the door while she was pushing against it.  I left shortly after that to go to the reunion.   

All4BVM,

I just want to say that I admire how you are handling all of this.  Its so difficult.  I tend to try to circumvent land mines with my husband when he is pushing me away and just not make a big deal out of them (like waverider said). 

Normally if he wants time alone with our little boy (18 months) then I step aside and allow that time.  There did come a time back in July where he kept upping the ante and I finally had to stand strong on an issue involving our son (he tried to take our son and our sons passport away from me and go check into a different hotel in a foreign country).  He was dyregulated at the time.  I didn't fear for my son but everything had gone far enough.  When I stood strong, it escalated into physical conflict and I unfortunately had to call the police on him.  That was just a line that I wouldn't allow him to cross regardless of the consequences.

That situation seems to have been the turning point (at least for now) for our lives.  He realized that he suffers from mental illness and he told me that he had hit his rock bottom.

Just wanted to throw my own experience in because it shows using both tactics.

:)

Good luck!

Have you asked her outright what is the main problem with your lives that is causing her so much grief rather than these day today little dramas? She may not know or be able to vocalize it, but then again it may trigger some deeper seated issue that you are unaware off.

Cinemas and reunions are not the stuff that causes people to want to end a relationship.

If you are going to have conflict it may as well be about the real reason for any chance of resolution.

Dear Waverider and Scarlett Phoenix,

Yes the underlying problem I feel is her need to connect and my pulling away emotionally.  She wants to feel like she is #1 in my life and I haven't shown that.  My fear of her outbursts and negative comments and putdowns has overtime pulled me away from her emotionally (not really consciously).  I would feel like the times I was starting to feel comfortable with her again, there would be a blowup and I would absorb it and withdrawal.  I know I didn't handle that correctly and should have allowed her to experience her frustration without doing all that I could do to calm her down (saying sorry over and over and not really knowing what I am saying sorry for, making sure the kids weren't screaming and running around the house, making sure they were doing all the chores they needed to do, etc).  I began perhaps not consciously to feel that it was safer to be on guard and not relax too much as the blowups would make me feel horrible.   

Six weeks ago when she said she only wanted me to talk to my family in her presence, it finally came out that she said because I didn't communicate what was happening in my extended family's life.  The specific example she brought up was that my brother who lives out of state, had his commercial lawn mower stolen- an event that had no impact on our family in anyway.  She stated that I did not tell her that happened until 3 weeks later.  Because of that example and others similar she said, she wanted to be in the room to hear.  However, I said I would do a much better job of communicating everything I know that is happening in my family.  She said no because I don't trust you will do that. 

TEXTING:  The reason she wanted to read the texts before I send them because she wanted to see that I respond in the text the same way I write to her- that is short and brief sentences.  She would not allow any texts that weren't short and brief because that is how I write her.  Her specific example was when my wife was out of town and I was coordinating with my mother the pick up and drop off with the kids.  She said I sent more texts to my Mother than I would her thus not making her feel #1.    I said in response I promise I will be more prolific when writing texts to her.  She said NO to that suggestion.  'It is not going to be your way- It is going to be my way'. 

Since then things just keep getting worse and worse.  She has changed the passwords to our family email, family calendar, and not just sent me the below email below this morning. 

From now on I will not talk to you verbally. If u need to communicate with me u can  only do it by text, email, writing a note and / or leave me a voicemail. No matter if we r in the same room, please do not talk to me. That counts meal times too.

I will not answer any questions if u ask me verbally. From now on I will not speak a word to u. If u force me to talk by asking me questions, specially in front of the kids I will not be responsible for the tone of voice I use or the type of words I use to respond ur questions.

Also, I want u stop telling ur friends/people that the reason I don't go to ur events is because I'm sick. Be real & tell them the truth. I don't care if u picture urself as the victim & me as the evil one. Just stop lying & said the things the way should be.  We're separated 4 the last 6 weeks& will file divorce as soon as the baby's born.

I want u maintain ur distance with me. I don't want u seat down, stand up, lay down or any other form close to me. That includes trying to take pictures, praying, etc too.

When we are sharing a meal or other situations & I'm making conversation with the kids, I want u out the conversation. I don't get into ur stuff or the way u live ur life, please do not get in my life or stuff either

I hope I'm very clear.

It doesn't seem like there is anything to grab onto now to work with.  It is hard to read this as it sounds like divorce is exactly what she has choses to do. 

All4BVM,

No matter where things get to - you can always make a choice to open back up and start again.  Whether she accepts that choice or not is unfortunately out of your control.

If it were me.  I would probably say my piece and then give her space.

S.E.T is a good tool

S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment.  Wife, I love you and you and the kids are the most important thing in the world to me.

E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the BP is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the BP: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the BP how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.

Truth It must be really uncomfortable for you to be living with me when you feel like I am so emotionally distant.  I never meant to exclude you from my life in any way shape or form.

T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the BPs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the BP or Non-BP. Often the BP may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the BP, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"  I recently realized that I have made some mistakes and that whenever we had a disagreement that I created more distance emotionally.  I am ready to try something different because I love you.

I understand that you need space right now.  Unfortunately I can't live with you without talking to you but I'll give you as much space as I can.

Good luck!

Dear allibaba,

Thank you for your insight and words of encouragement- much needed right now. 

I appreciate the SET examples and appreciate the role play on that.  Helping to see the concepts in words. 

Funny thing is she sent me 3 texts today (two pictures of one of my kids that she is a chaperone for at the school) and then asking me what she needs to fix with the crock pot meal I made today for dinner.  That is she is asking to make rice, noodles, potatoes. 

No mention of anything from earlier.  However, I don't have any motivation to respond back... .but I think I should as my motivation for not responding to her is because I feel hurt and feel that if I respond she will think what she wrote is OK.  I know this is where my own issues make things more difficult- with drawling and not wanting to participate. 

All4BMV, is saw your response in your other thread so I came here to look. I see that for the moment she is hell bent on her position. Allibaba is giving you good advice above.

And true, we do make it harder on ourselves by retreating and closing off the emotions. It's a very understandable response and I've been known to do it - a lot - myself. Nonetheless, it's neither helpful nor healthy. I understand if at the moment it is not doable for you to react differently.

Since she specifically stated no verbal interaction... .I guess it is best to write her by email.   Would I be violating her boundaries she set by telling this to her face. 

No problem.  I try to realize that inside my poor husband just hurts so badly sometimes and I am the safe one to lash out at.  I don't have to be an emotional punching bag though :)  He actually respects me more when I am not.

Its unrealistic of her to want no verbal interaction.  That's why I mentioned it in the SET... .you can't live with someone and not talk to them.  That's just CRAZY.  Its a conversation for face to face... .(but then again you will do what you have to do to communicate that you love her)


Not funny at all.  That is the disease unfortunately.  Have you read about push/ pull?  She may feel guilty about earlier.  The trick is not to ride the highs and lows with her and be a mature example of how to behave.  I think that you actually have to be a saint to make a BPD relationship work.  lol  You are a loving, radically accepting husband - who is not a doormat!  In other words, you love your wife... .you want it to work... .but you will not be abused :)


Your motivation to respond back is that you want your relationship to work!  You are the adult, the bigger person... .  you can move past the petty stuff and be a loving husband to her. 

You make her understand what is ok and what is not ok through boundaries... .not through withholding love or withholding contact (at least that has been the secret sauce for me).  Its so hard -- but for me step one was - no longer withholding love when I was hurt.  Step two is beginning to implement boundaries in order to remove the undesirable behavior and get your life back on track for your whole family. Step three was learning to validate his feelings. 

I'm not going to lie... .its really hard.  My hubby is off his rails today and I just have to keep trucking on with my day.

The silent treatment is a form of emotional abuse. The normal advice is distance yourself from abuse. You may have to distance yourself, as the act of pushing you away is what is feeding her emotions. If you remove yourself as much as you can from this dynamic then you remove the fuel from it.

If you are not engaging with this, then she will see the consequences of this behavior. At the moment she is delusional about what the consequences of her behavior is, she may not like the reality.

I think her underlying abandonment part of the disorder is being triggered. A common defensive reaction to that perception of loosing control is to take control and push you away first. To trigger a reversal you have to change the dynamics. Give her the space she wants. Do not give up your own rights to not living under the microscope, which is part of the TRUTH in the SET procedure Alibaba is talking about. The S & E is hearing she wants space and allowing her to have it.

The Truth is the real world consequences, and that may need to be demonstrated rather than just stated. Many of these issues are hers alone to deal with, and they will be harder for her to deal with alone. She may need to learn that lesson the hard way.

Just go about your life in an unaffected way as possible, you have your own quality of life to consider. That part you have control over.

Avoid dramas over single symptomatic issues, such as the original one raised. These are the things that affect kids the most

Was also thinking... .what can you do to address her real concerns/ fears?  Almost like a sign of goodwill.  In my house, I started talking a few issues that stressed my husband out very seriously.  I then took practical steps to minimize the stress.  Could you say... .mention that someone in your family was asking about her (maybe they were) and set up a skype or phone call together with them?  Even the offer might make her feel more a part of your life.

Just a thought.

I would say that you would be going against her demands, and not worry about whether you are violating her boundaries or not.

My strongest bit of advice to you is to hold strong to YOUR reality. She is telling you a lot of things that she completely believes, but which don't seem to be reality. (i.e. You are causing the divorce) She is also giving you a lot of arbitrary demands. (i.e. Do not talk to me at meals; Tell people we are divorcing; etc.)

Remember that your reality does include your wife saying these things, and (most likely) completely believing them when she says them.

Sadly, I don't see this as a solution. Fortunately you've already got good advice on what to do. I just want to assure you that if you start believing her reality instead of your own, the situation will just be harder to deal with for you.

I'd second waverider's suggestion of giving her separate space when she wants it. For practical communications, email or even txts sound good. Discussions with her about contested subjects like talking to your family or time with your kids, or your relationship are different. They are more emotional than practical, with the non-verbal portion being very important... .and completely lost in writing, so I wouldn't bite on those issues by txt/email.

Hang in there!

  GK

I'm usually on other boards, ones where the Staying - despite education, improved communication skills, etc - eventually failed.  So my comments are focused for the what-if future, so please bear with me.


Ponder this, if you and your wife weren't married then likely you and she wouldn't be doing things together with the children.  You'd have separate lives, separate homes, etc.  In her mind she's already taken that leap.  Can you get her to turn back the clock on her perceptions?  That's the big question, the family's future hinges on that.

At some point you may have to accept that she is determined to end the marriage.  She's been definite about it.  She's an adult, she's allowed to call an end to the marriage.  You have that legal right too.  No court will deny either spouse a divorce just because the other wants to stay married.  You'll have to tread carefully since she's on edge now.


Frankly, several things she's said and done, including the physical blocking, the recurring blaming and blame shifting, the inability to really listen, the firmness in saying it's over, her willingness to be overtly oppositional even in front of the children, reminds me of what my ex did in our final months together.  Because of that, I suggest you also have a Plan B where you make preparations now just in case to protect yourself if things don't improve.


Actually, you know that's not correct.  It's blame shifting, trying to make you accept the guilt and feel guilty.  The fact is that there's probably some blame on both sides but she's trying to shift it all onto you.  Don't be conned.

If the marriage does fail, she may try to claim abuse of some sort in order to gain the upper hand.  So be very careful not to give any excuse for her to claim it.  Typically when police respond and decide to cart one parent away, it's the man who is more likely to be the one removed even if he's not the problem.  Recall what she warned, "Next time I do that she will make a scene."

I also see that she is trying to Control your interaction with your family, perhaps friends too.  On the one hand it could be that she wants to know she isn't treated any differently than they are.  Makes sense considering her sensitivity and in a more normal person that could be understandable.  On the other hand, isolation from one's family and friends is a typical disordered tactic - and it often succeeds, giving the other more Control in the relationship.  I'm concerned she's using such claims and those attempts to scrutinize your privacy, your communication with your family, to lead you into deeper isolation.

I do hope the marriage can be rescued.  But if not, then please, please be prepared with Plan B.

Someone who has BPD but isn't in treatment, and has decided not to get along with you, probably isn't going to change.

If the marriage can't be saved, the kids will be at high risk until custody is settled.  Kids who are raised by someone with BPD are at high risk for substance abuse, depression, and lots of other emotional and psychological problems.

In some states, it's legal to audio-record conversations, if one party (in this case you) is aware of it.  Audio recordings, texts and e-mails like you have shared here might make a big difference if the marriage can't be saved.  Having the right evidence might mean the kids will be with you most of the time.

So... .while you may still hope to save the marriage, you might want to consider saving all the evidence you can - how she treats the kids, and how she treats you in front of the kids.  It will also help if you can document her BPD diagnosis, and gather evidence showing how that affects the kids.

You may want to consider posting on the Family Law board and/or Parenting - different perspectives - even if you still hope the marriage might be saved.

Sounds exactly like my stbx uBPD wife. We could be talking about the same woman. As ForeverDad suggests, have a Plan B ready just in case things don't go the way you envisage.  This means having clothes and other items packed, having money available to you, spare car keys, anything you need to make good your escape. In such a case don't forget to cancel any credit cards in your name that are attached to non-essential online accounts or you will be getting a $2700 charge on your card like I did yesterday.

She sounds exactly the way mine was at the end and I'm not sure there is a way around this once they get into this state. I knew the end was near but I had no idea just how close it was and so I wasnt prepared. I hope you will be - just in case. Good luck. 

All4BVM I know a lot of what you are being advised here sounds like hopeless doom and gloom, but the point is if you have all your options and alternate plans clear in your mind, it means that you feel less trapped and are able to be more centered in your decision making.

This in itself often reduces things getting that far, it is the fear of the unknown that often prevents us making the right choices whatever they turn out to be.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. 

And just because you are documenting things --

and just because you have an escape plan --

doesn't mean that you are abandoning her or making a decision to move on. 

I felt so guilty having an escape plan... .I am honestly really dedicated to my husband, but using my escape plan was pivotal for me in being able to have firm boundaries to protect myself and my son against abusive behavior. 

My husband was completely dyregulated yesterday.  It lasted 2 hrs and the rage was through texting (I did a little validation and then pulled the plug on it).  I was feeling down about it until someone pointed out to me that 6 months ago the rage was verbally and emotionally abusive (complete with physical threats and name calling) and sometimes it went on for days.  Yesterday last two hours and even when he called he knew not to rage at me on the phone because I would pull the plug on him.  YAY for tiny victories.

It helps you stay calm, stops you feeling desperate, and above all you dont get caught with your head delusionaly buried in the sand if the worse does happen.

Dear All who have contributed,

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I feel so humbled at all the input and genuine care that is so evident in these replies.  Thank you so much.  As you can imagine, it is so awesome to feel that support and not feel like I am alone-- that we are not alone.

A couple of thoughts (Sorry cant figure how to the boxes),   

[table]No problem.  I try to realize that inside my poor husband just hurts so badly sometimes[/table]

I meant with a friend today and it was another ahha moment (as I have also experienced in this forum).  My BPDw was brought up by an physically and verbally abusive mother and a father who had 2 other 'families' he was a father of with other kids (A common occurance from her country in South America).  My wife would talk about how she hated when her father would leave.  As he would leave 2-3 weeks at a time to go live with the other family.  He would always leave by saying something to the affect... .I will be back- I got to go to the store, to work, down the block, etc.  Then he wouldn't come back for 7-21 days.  She said her Mom would get more abusive when he was gone also.  The ahha connection was that I would suspect my wife HATED that other family he would go to.  And if my wife is trying to get some of her father needs met (perhaps subconciously by me), then she would indeed HATE anything that would remind her another family(s) that she would have to share with.  I may be reading too much into it, but I think I am getting closer to understanding her true triggering event and why she HATES my mom and family.  She often talks of my mom as my love for my mom is the same type of love I have for my wife.  So she had an abusive mother and a dad that would abandon her.   It doesn't change anything but helps me feel more empathy for her. 

My strongest bit of advice to you is to hold strong to YOUR reality. She is telling you a lot of things that she completely believes, but which don't seem to be reality. (i.e. You are causing the divorce) She is also giving you a lot of arbitrary demands. (i.e. Do not talk to me at meals; Tell people we are divorcing; etc.)

Yes I see how that is so true.  Just these last 10 days on this forum has helped with understanding reality.  My T talks much about helping me distinguish her reality compared to realty.  How facts may change to help justify her emotions. 

Actually, you know that's not correct.  It's blame shifting, trying to make you accept the guilt and feel guilty.  The fact is that there's probably some blame on both sides but she's trying to shift it all onto you.  Don't be conned. If the marriage does fail, she may try to claim abuse of some sort in order to gain the upper hand.  So be very careful not to give any excuse for her to claim it.  Typically when police respond and decide to cart one parent away, it's the man who is more likely to be the one removed even if he's not the problem.  Recall what she warned, "Next time I do that she will make a scene." I also see that she is trying to Control your interaction with your family, perhaps friends too.  On the one hand it could be that she wants to know she isn't treated any differently than they are.  Makes sense considering her sensitivity and in a more normal person that could be understandable.  On the other hand, isolation from one's family and friends is a typical disordered tactic - and it often succeeds, giving the other more Control in the relationship.  I'm concerned she's using such claims and those attempts to scrutinize your privacy, your communication with your family, to lead you into deeper isolation. I do hope the marriage can be rescued.  But if not, then please, please be prepared with Plan B.

Blame shifting ... .thank you that makes sense.  Yes I many times in the past would accept all blame whether it was my fault or not.  Many times I felt that if I accepted all the blame then I could apologize for it and hopefully make it go away.  I have come to realize how flawed that is to do.  And how it contributes to depression. 

Plan B.  Thank you for pointing that out.  I know in business there is always a plan B.  I can see without one how it makes you feel trapped.  I left a message to set up an appointment today. 

Someone who has BPD but isn't in treatment, and has decided not to get along with you, probably isn't going to change.

My wife has been in therapy for about 12 weeks now.  She goes 2 times a week.  What has been your experience with the pwBPD in therapy.  Does it Work, not work, how long to see some improvement, do the pwBPD continue with therapy. 

If the marriage can't be saved, the kids will be at high risk until custody is settled.  Kids who are raised by someone with BPD are at high risk for substance abuse, depression, and lots of other emotional and psychological problems.

That is a huge concern.  How much damage has been done.  Maybe a better topic for me to post on a different board but that is a concern... .is it better at home with severe dysfunction or separated with probable split custody. 

She sounds exactly the way mine was at the end and I'm not sure there is a way around this once they get into this state. I knew the end was near but I had no idea just how close it was and so I wasnt prepared. I hope you will be - just in case.

Isn't amazing how similar many of these stories are. 

it is the fear of the unknown that often prevents us making the right choices whatever they turn out to be.

Thank you for that reminder. 

I felt so guilty having an escape plan... .I am honestly really dedicated to my husband, but using my escape plan was pivotal for me in being able to have firm boundaries to protect myself and my son against abusive behavior

.

That is what I was feeling as reading some of the posts... .Gosh I will feel guility if I go to a lawyer, money stashed, recordings and saving emails.  There is something about be passive - which has contributed to me being in the place I am--  as compared to being assertive and having the energy and organization to do what it takes. 

My husband was completely dyregulated yesterday.  It lasted 2 hrs and the rage was through texting (I did a little validation and then pulled the plug on it).  I was feeling down about it until someone pointed out to me that 6 months ago the rage was verbally and emotionally abusive (complete with physical threats and name calling) and sometimes it went on for days.  Yesterday last two hours and even when he called he knew not to rage at me on the phone because I would pull the plug on him.  YAY for tiny victories.

Thanks for the reality check... .this is a lifelong commitment to some craziness but nice to see it does get better.  What did you mean that you pulled the plug on the validation.  What did that look like... .what does that mean.   GREAT JOB on the tiny victory!

It helps you stay calm, stops you feeling desperate, and above all you dont get caught with your head delusionaly buried in the sand if the worse does happen.

Great recap on all posts.  Thank you!

My personal experience (which I think is similar to some others here):

Someone who has BPD but isn't in treatment, and has decided not to get along with you, probably isn't going to change.

My wife has been in therapy for about 12 weeks now.  She goes 2 times a week.  What has been your experience with the pwBPD in therapy.  :)oes it Work, not work, how long to see some improvement, do the pwBPD continue with therapy.

I think it's safe to say that most people with BPD don't accept treatment and stay with it.  Some studies have shown that someone with BPD who gets the right kind of treatment - maybe ":)ialectic Behavior Therapy" - and stays with it long-term - years not weeks or months - is very likely to get better.  One study done by a group affiliated with Harvard Medical School reported more than 80% of those who stayed in therapy for 5 years achieved "remission" of major symptoms of BPD.  But it takes complete commitment and honesty by the person with BPD - nobody can do it for him.  She'll have to accept that he has a problem and needs help to change.  If she's at that point, you'll know it - she'll be honest and will begin to make amends.  But if she's still blaming others for her actions, I don't think all the therapy in the world will help.  (To be clear, this is my layman's view - I'm not a professional in this field.)



---

If the marriage can't be saved, the kids will be at high risk until custody is settled.  Kids who are raised by someone with BPD are at high risk for substance abuse, depression, and lots of other emotional and psychological problems.

That is a huge concern.  How much damage has been done.  Maybe a better topic for me to post on a different board but that is a concern... .is it better at home with severe dysfunction or separated with probable split custody.

You can't fix any damage that has been done, but you can do your best to figure out what will be best for the kids going forward.  You're asking the right question - which is better, one dysfunctional home or splitting time between two homes?  For my kids - 8 and 10 when we separated - I thought the answer was to stay together, but looking back, it's clear that the separation and divorce were the right thing to do.  I was able to quickly establish a "new normal" - a quiet, peaceful home where I could meet their needs.  Over the years, they have spent more and more time with me, and they are doing great.  I feel bad that they have to go back and forth - I don't think that is best - but it's the best I could do, and judging from results - their big brother and big sister were raised primarily by their BPD mom and have pretty big issues, but the younger two are doing very well in every way.

First off, I did some validation about what was upsetting him (that it was not unreasonable that he was so stressed out etc) and then he continued with texting abuse so I pulled the plug on the texting communication.  I don't validate once he's off on a tirade... .at that point it doesn't help and usually makes him angry.  Validation plays a role in avoiding dyregulated behavior but I won't sit and calmly have a discussion if he is yelling at me. 

I ignored most of the tirade.  When he sent a message saying "I see everything else is more important than me."  I waited a few minutes and responded "absolutely not, I am sorry that you feel neglected.  Unfortunately I am in a meeting.  We can talk more when I get home."  When I got home he had calmed down.

Yes, this is a lifelong commitment and you can have an impact on your life in a positive way without your wife's 'buy-in'.  By following the lessons, you can improve the situation for you and your kids. 

Some people begin to implement boundaries and there is a massive extinction burst (tantrum) and things start to see improvement (for me today, and zaqsert for example).  Mine was so horrible I wasn't sure that our marriage would make it through it.  I had to call the police on my husband  and he ended up having a massive meltdown because he couldn't believe how out of control he had gotten.

Others start to put boundaries in place and see their marriage go up in flames (Matt, ForeverDad). 

Unfortunately you cannot control the outcome -- that is up to your wife.  DBT (therapy) can help but don't count on your wife fixing herself... .this really is a lifelong commitment.  Its absolutely OK if you decide to get a divorce. 

Many, many on this board have asked the same question that you do about "severe dysfunction or separated with probable split custody" (momtara recently asked this on a post called "making it work with children" or something like that.  I think that it absolutely depends.  In my situation today, my husband and I are really close... .we share a lot of beliefs, hobbies, values that are the same.  He is an amazing father and today I believe that our son is better off with us together.  I adore his family and who my husband is... .its just I have to be realistic... .he's broken in certain ways.  My husband brings a lot of good things to the table.  I play an active role in offsetting the BPD crazy behavior to protect our son. 

For me, today, I believe that together in a home with some dysfunction but a 'mostly healthy' mom as an example is better than split custody.  As a man, trying to get more custody you have to prepare, prepare, prepare and be ready if you go through a divorce.  I'm glad that you are 'making an appt'.  If things go south its best for your kids if you have documented a lot.  Know your jurisdictions rules and be READY!  Matt and ForeverDad are really good resources and so is the entire legal board.

Again SO SO SO glad that you are here.  We're all rooting for you.

PS Good for you for starting to try to understand some of the roots of her illness (basically an abusive upbringing).  It will allow you to tap into better empathy when she's acting 'nutty'.  Getting out of the 'poor me' mentality was what allowed me to start taking my life back :)

This is the real starting block. It is your life, live it by choice, no one else can live it for you. Even doing nothing is OK as long as you choose to do nothing. Living by default was the downfall of most of us.

Matt,

Thank you. 

You can't fix any damage that has been done, but you can do your best to figure out what will be best for the kids going forward.  You're asking the right question - which is better, one dysfunctional home or splitting time between two homes?  For my kids - 8 and 10 when we separated - I thought the answer was to stay together, but looking back, it's clear that the separation and divorce were the right thing to do.  I was able to quickly establish a "new normal" - a quiet, peaceful home where I could meet their needs.  Over the years, they have spent more and more time with me, and they are doing great.  I feel bad that they have to go back and forth - I don't think that is best - but it's the best I could do, and judging from results - their big brother and big sister were raised primarily by their BPD mom and have pretty big issues, but the younger two are doing very well in every way.

Thank you.  I do wrestle with... .am I staying because I am not strong enough to make that break but using the kids as my 'excuse' to not be strong and make the decision.  What are my real motivations?  kids, desire to make it work, depressed of all the memories I have with my wife that I can't share with her, perceived reputation and shame in my faith community, love for her, etc.  Perhaps I should post this on the staying/leaving board.  But it is something that I struggle with.

"Staying for the kids" generally fails.  Often it is done because we're (1) naturally reluctant to give up our dreams and hopes and (2) uninformed about the whys and wherefores and non-intuitive but better options.  Too often, in our high conflict situations, "Staying" when we're being obstructed and sabotaged means we're not only making sacrifices, we're also sacrificing ourselves and our parenting by appeasement and in other ways.  Some might disagree with this thought, but I venture to say that "making sacrifices" within reason is fine but sacrificing yourself, sacrificing your parenting and sacrificing your parenting example is dangerous long term.

A benefit of providing a calm, peaceful and stable home separate from the disordered parent, even if only for portion of the children's lives is that (1) the children have at least a part of their lives that is reasonably normal, (2) the children see the difference between normal parenting and abnormal parenting, (3) you provide an example of what standards and boundaries you hold for proper behaviors and (4) your children are more likely to model your better boundaries and perceptions when they grow up and choose their own adult relationships.

Staying does make sense (1) while you're getting educated about the disorder, learning about better communication skills and learning how to build better relationship boundaries, (2) when you're able to see improvements in the relationship and (3) in order to improve yourself and your case better with documentation, etc to face potential legal hurdles of separation from a stronger position.

Meanwhile, it is wise to reserve for yourself the right to periodically reevaluate and reconsider all decisions based on how things are progressing - or not.

lol - it is wise!  These things constantly need to be monitored.  I may be doing all the right things for the right reasons and still my situation gets so bad that I am forced to leave.  I really hope not but I understand that this is the nature of mental illness.  At the end of the day, my son and I come first and we won't stay on a stinking ship.  That day hasn't come and I hope that it never does.

The key for me is to understand that I absolutely cannot control the outcome of this journey.  I can only take care of myself, take care of my son, take care of my responsibilities toward my husband (the reasonable ones).

In my heart of hearts, I truly believe that my marriage will work.  I believe that because I have a lot more in my relationship than FOG (fear, obligation, guilt).  I truly believe that I am so important to my husband that I will be more important than the disease in the end and I will win out.  If I am incorrect, I believe that I am no worse off for trying and putting my heart and soul into this recovery.  That's just me though and everyone is different... .  my situation is that my husband was VERY high functioning before some VERY bad things happened to him.  I knew my husband before the mental illness really took hold (about 5 yrs ago) - I think in some ways it makes the relationship easier to fight for.

The good news in all of this is that there is hope for all of us.  Good things can happen to you if you chose them (whether your relationship ends up working or not).  For now, you are staying and you have a good base attitude, good tools and good support!

*Then allibaba slowly backs away from her soapbox and vows to drink less coffee*   :)

I stayed far longer than some others would have stayed.  I was uninformed, reluctant to give up on my dreams, firm in my conviction that it was worth some pain to follow my moral conviction that marriage is not to be abandoned without good reason.

I do not regret the time while I "stayed".  It was the right thing for me to do at that time and I stand by it.  I did keep trying to find a way to make it work.  I tried to get help from the congregation.  I tried to get help from joint counseling.  I tried to prepare for that sad "what if all else fails" outcome.


Nor do I regret the time when I decided I had no choice but to "leave".  I had truly tried but nothing had worked, I continued to be obstructed, invalidated and my parenting increasingly blocked.  It was then time to re-prioritize myself, my children and my parenting.

Footnote:  It was only after I learned what I was dealing with (probable Borderline, Paranoid, etc PDs) and the police and courts had gotten involved that I arrived at this site.  So I didn't have a chance to be "Staying" as a member here.  As I look back, I don't see how it would have made that much difference in the outcome, but I do know I would have at least tried "Staying" here if I had been at that point in my life when I joined.

You may "Stay" for a short time or a long time.  That's your decision.  Just Stay or Leave for the right informed reasons.

More on staying for the right reasons:

If you really work on staying right now, all that work will help you whatever path you take. (Have you read any of the lessons yet? They are in the sidebar ------> You will find lots of really helpful things in them if you haven't already)

The tools you will learn here will help you better cope with your wife and her issues as you stay.

If you decide you cannot stay, then those same tools will help you deal with the fallout in a separation, and also help you continue to deal with her, as you have years of joint custody should you separate.

I view the important commitment to staying is not that you commit to stay forever, or even for a given period of time--the important commitment is that you are going to work as hard as you can to improve the relationship you are staying in.

That's what I hope you find here on the staying board.

 GK

People think I'm joking when I say, "It was in jail that I realized, maybe this marriage isn't working.", but I'm not.  I literally was 100% committed to making the marriage work - at least til my kids were grown - until my wife accused me of stuff and I went to jail.

That's the wake-up call I needed.  Looking back, there were plenty of other wake-up calls, but my eyes weren't open.  (Sorry for the mixed metaphors!)  It was literally while spending the night in jail that I just wasn't able to ignore reality any more;  I had to acknowledge that all my efforts to make things better had failed completely.

The next day, talking to a criminal defense attorney, I understood that continuing to pretend would put me at even higher risk - a second accusation, even with no evidence, would have more serious consequences.

So... .this is a tough one for many of us, to put it mildly.

Is there any reason to believe that he accepts that he has a problem, and needs help?

Does he take meaningful steps to change?

Does he tell the truth about what's happening, or does he tell others (and maybe himself) stories to avoid responsibility?

What risks do you face in staying?

And... .is it possible that a "therapeutic separation" or some other half-way safe-resting-spot might help?  Maybe allow you to set some healthy boundaries, and also allow time for positive steps to be taken... .?

Staying while working through a lot of these issues, and having a mindset to stay is good. Even if ultimately leaving becomes inevitable. It makes that final leaving more centered, you will have gone a long way to repairing yourself BEFORE making that decision. Many leave, then spend forever trying work out why, and live endlessly filled with "if onlys'.

If you approach it with an I am staying mentality and work on yourself while in the midst of it, you come to a fuller understanding of yourself, what you can, and cannot do. Apparent miracles do happen and things can turn around, and you will never be left wondering if that was possible.

The important thing to realize is that YOU are damaged as a result of this disorder, you are in the process of repairing YOU. In the relationship is the best place to start, if you can. Then reassess as you learn and your expectations change. It is an evolution and does not occur overnight.

.

Thanks for the reminder and again realizing that it is a lifetime of learning and growing in virtues when they get upset. 



I can definitely see what your are saying about repairing myself and then if it is inevitable I will have at fully thought through the decision.  I do dread thinking about the what ifs, and only ifs.  It has taken me 15 years to get to this place in my life.  I wonder from time to time in how I got myself to this point.  Sometimes my what ifs are... .what if I never went on that first date, met her, or took her brother's advice in warning me about her anger.  But I have learned so much about myself in this process and hopefully one day pass on some wisdom as you all have found the venue to 'pay forward' your experience. 


Haven't thought about this but yes have been damaged by all of this.  I think about how I use to feel before marriage compared to how I feel know.  I am amazed how much better I feel now than 3 years ago when I started therapy (when I was diagnosed with depression and dependency issues and my wife diagnosed with BPD).  It is as if my mind became rewired over time as I became more and more depressed as I turned my anger inward.



That did make me laugh out loud.  One of the first times I shared what was 'the full story' of what was really happening inside my house to other family members was when my BPDw called the police on me (about 8 weeks ago).  She had told me to leave the bedroom while I was sleeping and when I refused she turned on the lights, turn phone radio on full blast, pull off my covers, and threw all my clothes in to the hallway.  I grabbed the phoneradio and we wrestled for it and I got it and turned it off.  She picked up house phone and called police.  They didn't do anything when they came out.  But that was a whole new level of escalation for me in my mind.  Sadly enough only 4 weeks before that incident she left huge bruises on my bicep from pinching it and literately shattered my phone while it was in a protective shell.   


She has shared with me in a calm moment where she knows she is jealous and has a problem with expressing anger.  That was a good 16-20 weeks ago.


 

She has been going to therapy 2 times a week for about 8-10 weeks.


I am not sure what she is saying to others.  However there has always been a blaming or lack of taking ownership of her when something unpleasant happens.  Such as : spilling milk- it would be beause there was to much in it, or distortions in our arguments, or blaming kids for things in the house.  It usually needs to be somebodys fault. 


Escalation of fights, being verbally abused and embarrassed in front of the kids at home. 


She says she wont leave the home.  I am afraid if I leave it would be considered abandonment of the children and thus hurting my chances of custody.  Sleeping in different rooms currently and no communication is the space we have now. 


Yes I see there is no downside in continuing to obtain more healing.  This forum has been great.  I have learned so much already.  I will continue. 


  Great way to put it! 


I am starting to feel (or at least I think I perceive) that since sharing more of the 'real' story with my family they think I should be leaving this relationship ASAP especially with the email receieved on Monday.  I am fearful that  I don't want to be influenced by there 'desire' for me to leave but that I make my decision for myself.  At the same time though I know they come from a more 'healthy perspective' than I do.


  I need to read up more on FOG.  I am unfamiliar with that phrase.


Thank you for the other viewpoints on raising kids.  That is very good stuff and I will reread it  a couple of times to let it sink in.  I have been thinking about that a lot today already. 

In making a plan B... .would you suggest getting a different bank account.  Currently everything we have is joint.  I am afraid it could spark a bon fire and severe aggression if I were to start separating things out.  What are your thoughts

What would you advise someone else who had these experiences?

I think you're getting great inputs from everybody here, and I'm glad the focus on this Staying board is so helpful and insightful for those who are looking for ways to make difficult situations work.

These hostile, aggressive and dishonest behaviors make me very concerned for you - what might happen next... .

While that is a reasonable and logical step, yes it would probably be triggering to her to see the auto deposits from your paychecks stop.  Do her paychecks go into the same account as yours?

First, there's no harm in keeping the joint bank account.  Yes, she could bounce checks on it but I think that's the worst she can do?  Maybe others can chime in on that.

Second, lots of spouses have multiple accounts, some joint, some  personal.  Granted, that peaceful coexistence doesn't with spouses in conflict.  Still, you could start your own personal account, fund it slowly and have statements mailed elsewhere.  (If you bank online then you have to avoid risks of her snooping, keylogging, interrogating, doing credit searches on you, etc.)

In my case my ex was making ever-increasing demands, late night rants "to fix my problems", etc.  Well, we went to replace my failing car and bought a newer but used one.  She did go with me but refused to be a joint owner.  Well, when I tried to get a loan from my retirement account to pay for it, my company had it set up with J&S provisions that required the spouse sign off on the potential impact to spousal rights of inheritance.  Yeah, you can guess what happened, she refused to sign the simple disclaimer about her rights as spouse.   Was that dealer angry!  I had to rush to my mortgage bank to set up a loan.  While there I decided to set up a personal checking account and started sending my paychecks there.  When my ex found out she of course raged, it was a control issue for her.  I explained to her that it was a "package deal" from my mortgage bank, it was her refusal to sign that made me go to the bank.  (I didn't volunteer that it was my idea to do the package deal all in my name alone and not the bank's requirement.  I knew better than to volunteer or divulge that information.)  It sure didn't help our relationship but in reality it couldn't make it any worse either, it was going downhill that fast.

I have no intention of splitting, and I am sure my partner wont. There is no way I would have joint account. We tried it once and it was a disaster having essential finances at the disposal of an impulsive whim. Add vindictiveness into the equation, and I dread to think.

Matt is right it is a diplomatic process to start weaning away from it. But at least if you have the accounts set up and the avenue there, it is there for a potential emergency bail out if necessary. Like all back ups, knowing it is there makes you feel less vulnerable.

Not saying you should siphon all the family finances, just make sure that you are not at the mercy of being left completely high and dry.

I think I would say you need to get her out of the house. 

She has calmed down since Sunday.  Still no communication with me except texting practical matters which I don't really respond except with an OK or other short answer.  I did use the SET technique that allibi suggested.  However I hand wrote it and gave it to her in a letter- I know it was suggested to say it verbally but I felt I could get it all said in letter and may not have been able to in trying to communicate it verbally.  .  She responded on Tuesday by text and then again this morning by text saying she doesnt really understand. She wrote this to me today and on Tuesday.   

I did read ur note.  i don't really understand/confuse to what you want.  We both carry to much pain and anger inside of us that's why we can't communicate verbally for more than a minute before we start saying bad things to each other and causing more pain and hate.  U can text me whenever you want to say.  I think it is safer for 4 both of us doing that way.

I didn't write back until today.  I reiterated the SET letter that I gave her on Monday and told her I would be happy to sit down more and talk about it over a cup off coffee, icecream, etc.  I haven't heard

What do you guys and gals thoughts in what was written.  Am I being blind to the inevitable (separation) or is this her reaching out, or is it something else. 

  Thanks all4bvm

Apparently she is smart enough to know that that you two have too much emotional damage to communicate well in person.  I'll ignore the "who is at fault" issue, for obvious reasons.  That's where joint counseling comes in.  An experienced emotionally neutral professional might be able to guide the sessions without triggering emotional objections as much, something you obviously cannot accomplish due to the past history that is so overwhelming to her.

(I tried to do joint counseling, my then-spouse refused.  You may or may not have better results.)


I didn't think about the "draining the account" aspect.  Yes, that is another downside of joint accounts, including joint credit card accounts.

What I did after I got my package of personal checking account and car loan was to write a smaller check to the joint account to pay the miscellaneous expenses.  My then-spouse was fuming but hey she was already doing that anyway.

This reminds me, we had a joint savings account for our child, then only 3 years old.  Once we separated, she drained it and closed it.  As for our joint checking account, it sat relatively dormant during the divorce and then when I paid short term alimony, I paid it monthly by depositing into that account.  That way I avoided the government's 2% handling fee by CSEA.

Fortunately we did not have joint credit accounts.  When we separated: (1) I called her account and asked them to cancel my cardholder card and (2) I called my account and as account owner I canceled her cardholder card.  Fortunately we did not carry much card debt.

I didn't change my will and insurance beneficiaries until the divorce final decree.

.

We did about 9 sessions of joint couseling up until about 10 weeks ago.  The counselor told us in the last session that he didn't think our marriage will make it.  He said he didn't see much hope for us.  For our next session, my wife stated that she didn't think it was good for us to continue as she felt we were waisting money and that she started going to counseling.  That is we would have my T sessions, her sessions, and joint sessions.   However that was about 10 weeks ago, maybe that would be something good to bring up again with her. 




She did text back and said she would talk tonight.  She did throw in a little zinger that she wanted to talk in the house as she could not even think of going out of the house with me.  But Now just in the last few minutes I have recieved about 10 texts... .Here is what that said I  read over and over your letter and dtill dont get what you want.  I dont have any problem believing you love the kids... .I have never questioned that.  I DONT BELEIVE you or want to hear u about ur love fro me.  Wherever us call love its not what I need or want.  Like I told you several weeks ago, everyday passing I feel more and more comfortable knowing that finally there is a way for me to detach from ur family forever.  I can't see any way right now that u can do to make me feel different or change my mind.  You telling me that u Love is not enough.  Thee Love that u are showing me over the years and especially over the last 7 weeks its not enough for me to take away the pain and hate ur family.  Love is not just a word, it is an action. U r good saying that you love me but u do not show it.  U say one thing but do the opposite thing.  If you think the solution to end this.  Its 4 you to come to me and say i love you. well you are wrong.  I believe in ur love the 14 years and all you did its causing me more pain and hate.  I was stupid to believe that your love was enough to handleing being around ure family.  That never worked.  The paid got so deep right now it ís like stage 4 cancer, very little hope to survive.   Don't come to me and just say I love you as your words dpn't mean anything to me. I'm in so much pain/hurt, the wound is so deep and infected with hate that fro me to change my mind about Divorce you  need to have an action plan that convince me that things will be different not for 1 week, or a month, but forever.  U can text me or email ur action plan and after I read it I can let you know if its worthy to talk over that.  That is the only way I will accept to talk with you tonight.

Am I being just foolished thinking there is something to salvage.  I feel pressure to come up with that perfect solution for her.  I don't think there is a perfect solution.  But I know that she will judge if I send her as 'silver' bullet solution.  The silver bullet I see her accepting would be a total disregard for my needs and wants if they are in anyway contrary to her needs.  It makes me sad thinking that could be something I could tell her and she would be fine with it.  But I would be selling my "personhood"away to get that. 

What do you all hearing in her texting.  Where am I off base, on target, or need to see more clearly.   

About affairs... .Let's ignore whose fault it was or was not... .Over the centuries, a consistent concept regarding divorce has been that infidelity was a valid basis for divorce and the marriage bond broken.  Seen from that perspective and ignoring who had fault or not or even shared fault, the fact remains that infidelity can end a marriage.  Saying you love her could either (1) be a starting point to possibly save the marriage or (2) be rejected.  Thus far she's given every indication she won't resume the marriage.  Whether she is disordered or not, you should accept her decision.  These days, at least in the eyes of the law, either spouse can decide to end a marriage.

Others here can comment on whether this is wise or not but I feel you need to let go of your protests that you love her, clearly that is irritating her.  Yes, it's not good for her to rehash the affair over and over, that's unhealthy but you still need to let go your protests of love, at least for now, since it is triggering her greatly.  When you keep trying to protest otherwise and reason with her, that isn't working.  She's reacting on an excessively emotional level and logical reasoning won't work.

"The counselor told us in the last session that he didn't think our marriage will make it.  He said he didn't see much hope for us."  While we weren't there, that was probably a valid observation.  Accept that.  You may need to shift from spouse-parent to just parent.  (Beware, she may think that if you don't qualify in her eyes as spouse then you shouldn't be a parent either.  That is an invalid and wrong connection but she's likely to think that and try to do that.)  Sad, but that looks like your reality unless she changes significantly for the better.

I'm just going to comment on what she wrote:

She's clearly dyregulated... .pushing you away.  I WOULD NOT argue with her over and over again that you love her.  Gets into a circular argument that you cannot win.  I know in times I have to back off of the I LOVE YOU tact with my husband and give him space (when he's dyregulated).

There is clearly one serious and major issue for her and she is like a dog with a bone on that one.  YOUR FAMILY OR ME.  This is not an appropriate choice to make a spouse make.  She's making demands that are unreasonable.  I will say that my husband could have easily written that note when he's dyregulated... .he would have just added more swear words and abusive language and I believe that I am his whole world.  Don't put too much weight into one venting of feelings.  They change daily. 

More senior folks... . how would you deal with this? Its completely obvious now to me that she's punishing you over the boundary that you put in place regarding your family.  Is there a communication that could be done about the boundary/ her feelings about your family?  This is the core issue.

Obviously you can't put together an action plan that will convince her that things will be better.  Don't bother trying.  In this case, talk (or writing and texting lol) is cheap.  Any changes you make in the way that you handle her need to be done... .not talked about.  I'd probably reconsider how to communicate the fact that wanting a relationship with your family does not mean that you want to exclude her from her life.  I might say something about the fact that right now you do not want to pursue divorce.  I'd simply respond to her note and say something acknowledging the pain that she is feeling and giving her some space.

S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment.  Thank you for being open about how much pain you are in right now.

E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the BP is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the BP: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the BP how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.  It must be really frustrating to believe that I prefer my family over you.

Truth 

T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the BPs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the BP or Non-BP. Often the BP may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the BP, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"    My parents etc, are important to me and I don't feel comfortable excluding them from my life. 

Definitely need some input from others here... . 

maybe either say something about giving her space... .

or maybe empower her to make a decision regarding you and your family.  In other words, you have already told her that you can't give them up... .OPTION A would she like for you to include her more in interactions with them (maybe plan a dinner) or

OPTION B would she prefer for you to make sure that she isn't aware of the interactions that you have with them because she has said that she hates them so much. 

She's having a tantrum because you told her that she doesn't get to control the communication between you and your family... .that's obvious.

I can't remember all of your backstory so I am not sure what the best solution is here.

Have you read the Lessons?  ------>

The situation that concerns me is that your wife called the police on you.  Thank you for honestly sharing about that.  It confirms that clearly you need to tread with caution in all interactions with her.  I have called the police on my husband twice.  Once because he hit me and once because he threatened to take our son away against my will and he became seriously physically abusive.  There is a time and a place for calling the police... .just be careful.

All4BVM, what is the issue with your family?  Are they very involved in some way, or did something happen in the past which your wife hasn't gotten over?  (My apologies if you have already talked about this... .)

I certainly think Allibaba is right to highlight this issue - it sounds a lot like "Because of some problem with your family, I don't want to be married to you or work on our issues together.", which doesn't leave you with many options... .

There has not been any affiars or accuasations of affairs for either her or me.  I do know that is one place she has said over the years that she has ultimate trust for me.  I dont have any concerns for her either.  I did not mean to illude to anything of that nature. 


Things have been unraveling fast, faster than I ever recall.  Usually things have gotten better by now... .but I have always succumbed to whatever she has asked.  I did have a phone conversation with a lawyer today.  I am meeting with a lawyer in person on Monday. 

To allibaba,  Thank you for your post on the SET.  You have stated it very well.  Thank you that helps alot. 


I believe the back story is in this same thread(or in Bpdwife says I am NOT to talk to my family) ... .but The short story is that she felt slighted by my Mom when we came back the the US to live.  We lived the first year with her.   The language barrier contributed to it.  I contributed to it the first year by being a son to my mom and more than a husband to her.  However, she feels that love is a subtraction.  If I love others it is taking away the love I have for her.  And if she sees me having a good time with them then I am putting them first and not her.  I probably talk to my family once every couple of weeks.  Oddly though, my wife used to get on me for not calling my family enough.  She said your United States culture does not uphold the family enough.  You guys don't put enough importance on it.  You need to call your mom and family more.  The anger for my mother has spilled over to my sisters and brothers in the last 6-12 months.  So her ultimadem has been... .either I only talk with her and cut off all communication with my family unless I am talking to them infront of her.   

My tendency is to overthink decisions for many big ticket decisisons.  I wonder am I just afraid to see the reality.  Sad to experience the realty of this expeirence. 

This issue with your family rings bells for lots of us - it's a common phenomenon.

My wife was extremely jealous of my family;  if I talked to them on the phone at all she made a big issue of it... .

My $.02: Opening an account in just your name and a credit card in just your name... .using a different address, perhaps a PO Box sound like a reasonable precaution for you to take. If she doesn't find out about it, she won't get upset about it.

Moving your paycheck into a separate account would be a provocation for sure. But it would protect you some.

Moving joint savings (or half of them) to a separate account would also be a provocation.

Before you do either of those options, I've got few questions:

Have you and your wife had problems or arguments over money?

Do you and she have similar incomes?

Do you own a house, and if so, is there a lot of equity in it?

Do you have joint enough joint savings to be significant to you?

All these things would influence my feelings on joint vs. separate accounts, and how soon I'd shift something.

If you are actually served divorce papers, that obviously changes the game.


I've read some stuff in our legal board, and one phrase I've read a few times is "high conflict divorce". Lawyers may not know much about BPD/NPD as such, but this is their term for the sort of things that come up in a nasty BPD/NPD divorce/custody dispute. In your shoes I'd ask the lawyer about his experience with high conflict divorces.

Other than that, all I can say is hang in there, and take good care of yourself, and keep doing what you can to improve things.

 GK

Gray Kitty,

Thank you for the input.  Here are some answer to the question. 

Before you do either of those options, I've got few questions:

Have you and your wife had problems or arguments over money?  No but there are many put downs she will sling... .  The arguments or put downs come usually from her saying how bad of a boss I am, how inept I am at making a living, how I work so many hours but then don't make enough money to pay bills.  I opened my own business about 7 years ago... .although it pays the bills it hasn't left much for savings, etc.

Do you and she have similar incomes? She is a stay at home mom.  We have 7 kids with 5 in school and 2 at home.  In the 14 years she has been here in the states, she only had a temp job once.  However it didn't last but 6 weeks.

Do you own a house, and if so, is there a lot of equity in it?Yes we own and there is considerable equity

Do you have joint enough joint savings to be significant to you?I have a 401K which is significant to me.  We also have a trust account in her name with some savings

.

Thanks for the input Matt.  As said earlier, always amazed at the similarities in many of the stories. 

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