BPDFamily.com

I am going to my first consultation with a lawyer who was recommended to me.  My wife is dBPD 3 years ago with 7 children under the age of 14.  One child due December. 

I am wanting to save my marriage however my wife doesn't seem to at this point.  I am looking to have a Plan B in place (however it could be more like a plan A soon).  What do you suggest?  I also just started reading splitting book.  Here are some initial thoughts and questions. 

• Cost:  How much does it cost
  
  One lawyer I spoke to on the phone says he has dealt with many cases of BPD.  He seemed to know my situation exactly without even telling him much.  However he bills $510 an hour with a 5K retainer.  He said the cost usually goes to about 20K and sometimes 'there is no limit' depending on how contentious it is.  I am meeting with another lawyer on Monday and she charges $300 an hour.  Regardless, even 20K could wipe out any savings we have.
  
  
  
  
  
  • 401K- Is that split in a divorce
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • Home:  our home has a lot of equity.  Does one person allowed to stay in it?  Do we have to sell and split equity?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • Kids:  How often do kids get full custody rewarded to husband.  My BPDw has said in email which I have a few times she doesn't want the kids, however recently she said let the courts decide
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • What questions should I ask the lawyer? 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • Most of the lawyers request an initial consultation for their hourly fee.  Is that normal?  How can I make my time as efficient as possible?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • My wife does not work outside the home and has always been at home to raise them:  Would the lawyer bill be paid from our current household income
  
  
  
  
  
  
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Thanks for any input and guidance you may have. 

Ask questions about how the lawyer would handle high conflict situations where the other side isn't interested in settling and negotiating a fair agreement, but instead will use each issue and situation as a way to be obstructive and try to punish you and hurt you.  Also, someone that will do everything they can to drag out the case, lie under oath, make false accusations, etc.

Ask about the legality of recording her.

Ask about if a GAL/custody eval/psyche evals would be helpful or not.

Ask how many cases in your jurisdiction the L has tried. 

Ask how well the L knows the judges.

Ask if the L is familiar with William Eddy's book "Splitting" and it's advice in dealing with high conflict divorces.

Talk to the L about his opinion of setting up future cases (custody changes/modifications, contempts, etc.) and the best way to position yourself for the next case.  Sometimes they want you to settle right now, but it actually hurts you in the event you have to go back to court later.

Make a list of specific issues you will deal with, and the outcome you want.  Ask the L for a strategy to get there, including if need be, multiple cases in the future.  See ForeverDad's story for reference.

Sorry you're going through this All4BVM. It's not an easy journey.


 

Divorce is tough. Divorce is even tougher when you are the one being left behind. Divorce with a pwBPD who is leaving you behind -- that is no easy thing. Any chance you are seeing a therapist? It really helps to have a professional check your thinking when you go through this. A big part of the ordeal is dealing with your own psychology, and trying to not sabotage yourself in the process.

Also, divorce is very triggering, even for people who are not BPD. Family courts are hard to figure out, and it's an expensive learning curve.



I retained my L twice, both times it cost me $5K. I am way over the retainers at this point, and after the last go-around, I can't bring myself to tally it up. My L is $300/hr. The $500/hr L is being straight with you. $20K is not uncommon, and with some pwBPD, it's true that there is no limit. I expect I'll be dealing with court stuff for years to come, and my divorce is final. The problem is that pwBPD don't follow the orders they initially consented to.


Yes, usually. Some people wheel and deal if there are other assets, but in general, 401Ks are split.


Usually one person stays. If you stayed, you might be ordered to refinance and buy her out. If she stays, she would need to have enough income (either through alimony or other income) to pay the mortgage.


Wow. Sorry, I just never get over the kinds of things pwBPD can say about their own kids. If you have that email, hang onto it! And if it's true that she doesn't want the kids, and has been negligent -- especially if you have documented that over the years, then that's better for you.

Where you live, do they call it full custody? In many states in the US, full custody is a combination of physical custody and legal custody. Sometimes decision-making (for educational and medical decisions) is separate from legal custody. Then there is visitation. Courts like to carve it up so that the responsibilities are distributed according to whatever your circumstances. For you to get full custody right away -- that's only likely if your wife hands it over without contesting it. Is she motivated by money? Because at some point, she may realize that she could get money from you for child support if she has the kids. Then things get ugly.


 

Is there a county that might be more favorable to fathers filing for full custody

If there is only one county where you can file, what is the judge like?

Has the L ever had a case like yours, and if so, what was the outcome?

What are some ways you can save money during this process? What can you do to minimize the costs?

Tell your L that your goal is to get full custody, and ask what strategy he or she would use to help you get there

Strategies might include custody evals, depositions, parenting coordinators (if your state uses them), mediation, etc.

If your wife has plans to move back to South America, does she plan to take the kids with her, and how would that work in a custody arrangement?

How does the court deal with infants and kids in the "tender years" when it comes to paternal custody?

Does the court split up kids in custody?

Also -- don't let any lawyer talk you into a "collaborative divorce." That doesn't work with pwBPD.


My L charged half her normal hourly rate as the initial consultation fee. In some states, consultation is free, other places the fee is $50 or $100. If you have access to pro bono services, it might be worth meeting with them to get some of the basic questions answered.



They don't care where the money comes from to pay them. Do you mean how will she pay for her lawyer? She will likely draw from your household income, unfortunately.

You're doing the right thing, asking questions, getting a lay of the land, seeing what your options are.

Just curious -- is it possible that she would go back to her home country and straight up abandon you and the kids? Would she leave if she had enough money to do that?

Retirement savings... .  Laws may vary from state to state but probably the amount you had up until you married is yours, the amount since then may be split between you as the marital portion.

House equity... .  Laws may vary from state to state - "community property" laws have a big impact - but possibly the amount of equity you had before you married is yours, the equity increase since then may be split between you.  If neither of you want to keep the house or the one wanting to keep the house can't afford to buy the other out, then it's best to sell rather than get one or the other or both financially overextended.

Custody... .  That's tough to call one way or the other in advance.  It seems that often the person of the female gender gets unwritten and unspoken default preference.  That was my conclusion in my case.  I was always reasonable and cooperative, my ex was not.  But there's an observation here:  The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.  Not fair but that's life.

There are surely other factors too.  For example, my ex was arrested for threats of DV but over in family court that "adult behavior" was ignored and the magistrate's only question was to ask our work schedules, so evidently the history of majority parenting time meant a lot to my magistrate and I the target of DV walked out with alternate weekends in the temporary order.

I recall a mother here remarking how hard it was for her to overcome her spouse's intensely emotional manipulation of the court, and other mothers have reported the same.  She believes that it's more like "the squeaky wheel gets the grease".  So it might also be the fact that since we're reasonable and not making wild unsubstantiated allegations and our spouses are doing the opposite, being unreasonable, demanding and making wild unsubstantiated allegations, the courts could be hesitant to disregard the claims of an exceedingly and intensely vocal spouse or parent.  Courts don't care if a spouse is lying, in fact they expect both spouses are lying, though they only rarely state so, the court-speak for that is a weak "not credible".

In my case, I recall that my ex even went so far as using the HIPAA privacy laws to obstruct my access to my child's counseling records and it took over a year to get the court to finally order that agency's compliance regarding the rights I already had.  And no one apologized for that delay or obstruction.  And no one stopped her from making allegations over and over.

Charging a fee for the initial consultation is normal, it's definitely cheaper than a retainer.  But if you pay for an hour, you better get your hour.  It's usually wise to get consultation from multiple attorneys.  You want to be able to choose one you're both comfortable with and who has experience and a good assertive strategy.  For example, my lawyer said my case should take 7-9 months with a child involved.  We ended up taking 2 years and I walked out with Shared Parenting.  And later when I sought custody that took 1.5 years.  I'm now seeking majority time (Modification of Parenting Time) and so far it's 15 months and still pending.

Lawyers' bills... .In my case, we settled and the terms were that we split our marital assets and we each paid our respective lawyers.  If you can, try to have her pay her own legal fees from her portion of the marital equity.

Warning, Will Robinson!  Beware of feeling you have to be Overly Fair.  Our otherwise excellent qualities of fairness and obligation can be used against us and cause us to sabotage ourselves when unwinding a marriage.  (F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt)  Believe me, the court and her lawyer will make sure her rights are more than protected!  Your years of (1) protecting her from herself and her consequences and (2) sharing confidential information with her would be over once you decide the marriage will end.

Don't worry overmuch about future support, that will all be calculated based on, most likely, your respective incomes and the proportion of parenting time.  (These days courts expect any parent not currently working to get trained for a career and/or find work and become reasonably self-sufficient.  Sitting at home saying "I pack lunches for the kids before they go to school" is no reason to avoid a paying job.)  Of course, your support obligation is only to the children you fathered or adopted, you do not support any stepchildren.  And unless you've had a long marriage, alimony, if any, is short term and usually is no more than half the length of the marriage and generally less.  (My settlement gave my ex 2 months of alimony for every year married.)

Frankly, most divorces, including high conflict ones, end in settlement.  But usually it takes 1 to 2 years to get to the point where you can get a decent settlement outcome, and generally that only occurs just before a looming hearing or trial date when there are no more delay opportunities or the spouse's poor behaviors will be used in court.  For most of us, we had very possessive and controlling mothers/spouses to deal with.  If she seriously sticks to her what she indicated before, "My BPDw has said in email which I have a few times she doesn't want the kids, however recently she said let the courts decide" then it may not be that bad.  However, (1) she is very likely to change her mind multiple times and (2) likely her lawyer will tell her to use the children and custody as leverage to get more from you.  Just so you're aware.

I did a bit of back reading on some of your posts. 

She called the police on you once when she was the aggressor.  She injured you once that went unreported.  Your L will need to know that she is physically and verbally abusive to you.  You also need a strategy so she doesn't put you in the position of getting falsely arrested for DV.  Ask about recording laws in your state.  You need to be recording all the the time (ABR-Always Be Recording) in any interaction with her. 

All 4

I have to chime in here.

All assets that you brought prior to being married are yours.

If you do alot of legwork and paperwork.  You can find attorneys for only a few hundred per hour.

But that means knowing the law and what you are dealing with and instructing them.

Most all attorneys want the mighty dollar and quite honestly. do not give a crap about the welfare of you and your kids.

Start thinking of this as a business. I know I will probably get lambasted about the attorney statement.

But in my experience. They just don't want the headache.

So you have to give them the ammunition and direction.

They simply represent you. And I looked for the nastiest attorney I could find.

I did not care about personality. It came down to how agressive they are and will be.

I documented, recorded, printed absolutely everything. It was laborious.

But in the end. They had to cave.

It was the most emotional, stressful, and exhaustive time in my life.

But I have been rewarded tenfold each and every day.

You can look at some of my story in prior posts. And there is a whole lot more there.

But again. I say to look at this as a business transaction.

You may have false allegations put against you. You may have CPS called several times. You may have financial burdens put upon you that you don't expect.

Get your guard up. And prepare for an assault.

Most lowly attorneys will accept any equity from the house, cars, furniture,401k, or pension funds. In a promise to pay them from your spouse.

All4

Just a note:

I too did not want a divorce.

I simply wanted to be a good husband and father. And a good life for my kids.

I have spent around $5000.00 total. Where my wife has spent around 25k.

I have my kids, the house, and I am moving on.

She will get part equity in the house.

But that is what she promised her lawyer.

She was also a stay at home mom. That has no merit in my eyes. I.E. dirty dishes, piles of laundry, no food made.

Good luck! 

Good inputs from everybody.

Remember you can talk to as many lawyers as you want to, before deciding which to retain (or whether to retain a lawyer at this time).  Some offer a free initial consultation.

* Have you had experience with high-conflict divorces?  Can you give me some examples?  What have you learned?

* Are you familiar with BPD?  (Notice if she knows what that stands for, and has some understanding of what it is.)

* What is the process here - what sequence of events is most likely - how long does each usually take?

And here's a key question for you to answer - maybe before talking to the attorney:  What are my key objectives?  Then you can explain them to the attorney and ask her for a plan (not a promise) to achieve them.  For example, my objectives might have been primary custody of my kids and not too much alimony.  You might not get a clear plan at the first meeting, but let her know that's what you need before signing her up - judge her not just on whether she "seems good" but, maybe more important, whether she can lay out a sensible plan to get the results you think would be best.

(My first attorney had a great "bed-side manner" - very intelligent and professional - I thought he would be great.  But he never gave me anything like a plan to actually get the results I was looking for.  Finally I fired him, and found a better lawyer - not so slick or impressive, but she quickly gave me a clear plan which turned things around and got OK results.)

Wow great points.  Thank you Wwadams, liveandlearned,foreverdad, catnap, broken3 and Matt.  I will take your points to consolidate them into a word document to create some talking points with the L tomorrow...   There is definitely a lot of wisdom in those stories.  Hopefully I can learn and avoid some of the obstacles you have encountered if this path continues.

My feeling of just meeting with the lawyer really gives me internal struggle.  Thank you for the T suggestion.  I have been seeing my T for about 3 years.  I think it is due in part to some becoming more stronger in establishing boundaries over the last 3 years has resulted in the escalation from my wife.  I think deep down I would love to hear her say I am sorry and I have been over the top.  Lets start over.  However, on Friday night after her coming into the room where I sleep as I was going to bed- she started in on something and ended after an hour her asking me 'what do you want'.  I said if you are not happy here and don't want to be with me, then I why do you stay in this house.  If you are not happy here and don't want to be with me then I don't want you in the house.  She said that after she has our baby, she will leave and give me 100% custody of the other 7 kids.  I had the recorder on but the app was stalled and didn't record any of it.  She did come back and with a lot of text me the same thing about 30 minutes later. I wonder if that text message will carry any weight.  I

Although this part should probably go on a different board, I am just so sadden by all of this.  It comes in waves of saddness.  I was paying the bills yesterday and here came the tears.  It seems to come on all of a suddden.       

Thank you for all the info.  As always I am amazed at all the support on these boards. 

This is what my son did, as well as printing out a copy for the attorney as well.  Leave spaces to jot notes after each point so you can remember what was said.  You might consider printing out a few of the more pertinent texts to give the L an idea of what you are dealing with and if they would be helpful.

It is sad, the ending you didn't expect. Grieving over what could have been is natural.  The balancing act is to not let that bleed over into giving away anything that is important or a priority to you in the divorce, especially custody. 

Just got back from my appointment and it was very good.  Thank you so much for all the questions and comments made on this thread.  I went in the meeting with a 3 page word document.  It really put me at ease to hear who go through many of the red flag issues without me asking on them.  Iwas able to check off many of the 'red flag' concerns that were given by you all.  The L was recommended to me and seemed very familiar with high conflict divorce cases.  She walked me through the frustrations with that.  She said it is going to run about 20K and will be very agonizing, emotionally draining, etc.  She stated that with these type of cases there is no room for negotiations as the pwBPD tend to change their mind often.  It has to be all or nothing in way of custody arrangements with these types of personalities and situations.  She laid out the plan to the detail of which of the 2 judges (out of 5) to present it to.

I left there very confident that I have this Plan B in place which can executed if needed.  Thank you Thank you!

That sounds very promising. Keep advocating for yourself -- even if your L seems promising, you have to fight to make sure she follows through on everything. She works for you!

Also, 20K could be about right if your ex is already telling you she doesn't want the kids. Mine was more than that but for two specific reasons. 1) changing custody after N/BPDx had a psychotic episode and 2) getting him to do what he agreed to do in the consent order.

If your L can get you a favorable outcome, and you are satisfied with it, then $20K may be realistic. Also, there are a lot of people here who were awarded 50/50, but the kids ended up spending more time with the stable parent.

I resemble that remark.  :)

Thank you Waadams and livedandlearned

Me too.  My lawyer advised me to settle for 50/50;  she told me I would end up with "de facto" primary custody over time, and she was right.

This lawyer sounds good, but you don't have to settle for the first one you talk to.  You can talk to as many as you want, and then decide;  or you can just talk to them, and make no decision at all for now.  I talked to a lawyer the day I got out of jail, but didn't retain him for several months, because I wanted to try to find a way to save the marriage.  I wanted to know that I had done everything I could, before I spent even one dollar on an attorney.

By the way, I think this attorney's view - that a settlement is unlikely and you need to be prepared to go the distance - is good advice, but maybe a little on the pessimistic side.  It's true that if you go down that path, you can expect some irrational behavior from the other side - I don't remember if you have read "Splitting" by William A. Eddy, but it's a good description of what you're likely to experience and ideas how to deal with it.

But... .if she retains a competent and honest attorney, and if you and your attorney handle things skilfully, it's possible and maybe even likely that you will reach a settlement at some point.  Only a few cases actually go to trial.  Non-high-conflict cases almost always settle, and high-conflict cases often settle "on the courthouse steps" - that is, very shortly before the trial is scheduled, when it becomes super-clear to the other side that they are at high risk if it goes to trial.

That's how mine settled - less than 24 hours before the trial.  The reason was, by that time I had come from a very weak position - early on, I made some bad mistakes and my first lawyer screwed up too - to a pretty strong position.  And going to trial would have not only cost us both a lot, it would have also exposed my wife - her behavior would have gone into the public record, and she would have been proved to have lied under oath when she was deposed.  So her lawyer (I think) told her, "You would be wise to settle today."

The lawyer may have been telling you that, if you prepare for trial, things will probably go well, but if you don't budget for it, you will be too eager to settle, and then the other side's irrational demands might be hard to avoid.