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I proposed to her at her favorite local park (which I shall not go back to for YEARS... .just reading the triggering thread reminded me of that). I had gotten us chow mein to go so we could eat it there. Though she always ran into the hole in the wall place to get it, I did this time. I asked for two, I took two. When we got there, she pulled hers out and I got her the regular size instead of the small size. Well, that set her off (reason? There was no reason... .she never specified) and she started going off on me, not quite yelling, but it would have been embarrassing had anyone been around. I was seething. At that point, i thought about pulling out the ring, showing her, then tossing it into the lake and saying it was over. Stupid, naive me... .I did the whole getting down on one knee (after we had eaten in silence) and did my thing. She broke down crying and said yes. She later said that any guy that wanted to marry her, warts and all (what an understatement I came to find out... .but already knew on some level), deserved her "yes."

This means nothing now, but it shows how stupid I was back then. In retrospect, if I had done that, she probably would have begged me even more to say yes, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference. My best choice would have been to palm the ring, return it, and then quickly detach and break up as well as I could have.

Is that an early red flag? I remember mine mirroring/copying my hobbies within a week of meeting her  red-flag hihi

No, but it is one I should have definitely run. We had already broken up (for like a weekend) a few months previously, but she had given me her "permission" to propose to her, despite her screamingly obvious thing against marriage (due to her parents'. And the idealization/100mph romance/devaluation/anger/attachment/move-in-to-prove-you-love-me along with a whole long list of things were already done. I guess my point is that this was the big one after which I should have ended it. But stupidly didn't. But now we have kids, so it is what it is... .I guess since she got "fixed" the kids are lucky they didn't come from another man (nonsensical, I know, but you know what I mean), and that they have one stable parent.

In actuality, my first impression of her, seeing her across a room, was "hm, there's an interesting, pretty young woman... .but it looks like she's anxious and doesn't trust people." Her explanation later was that she liked to get the lay of a room and watch everybody. Me, too, but I was actually sitting amongst our peers, not obviously off by myself. Of course, when I started talking to her, the charm ratcheted up, and I lost myself. Oh well.

Hey Turkish!  Thanks for sharing your story.  Without any prior knowledge of BPD or related behavior traits, most anyone would have proceeded with the proposal.  I don't think it was stupid... .maybe ill informed, maybe more hopeful than real... .but not stupid.  Expecting the best of someone, or that a loving relationship could bring out the best in someone is not folly.  It was a risk, it was ill-informed and the cost of attaching to someone so troubled is horrible... .but I would have made the same decision.  Of course, that is why I am on the board also!

But, the proposal story would not automatically lead all healthy men to run. 

But, this quote from you might lead someone to rethink! And the idealization/100mph romance/devaluation/anger/attachment/move-in-to-prove-you-love-me along with a whole long list of things were already done.

It does all look so obvious in retrospect, but it genuinely is not when we are in the moment.

I have friends that have co-dependent traits that are more pronounced than mine (and I am referring only to myself, not tangentially to you!) and they are in stable, loving marriages.  Their wives are better suited to them... .they are not disordered!  So, while I am very conscious now of how I was unprepared for the mess I encountered and I must change and grow... .it also might have been very different if I met a healthier woman.

A long way of saying... .it wasn't stupid.

Marrying or proposing does not change the toxic nature of a relationship and does not change it for the better. I think we know that now.

Stupid? No! Looking and thinking you may have found the ideal love? Possibly!

Turkish, we each have our reasons and past to delve back to which does and has dicated the reasons we find ourselves here.

Any ideas why you persisted with a girl even though you felt uneasy about it?

(post above: thanks Winston, that helps... .)

Hm, Clearmind. Maybe I'm too old fashioned and have my own idealizations of "right" and "wrong" (which clearly led me to do the wrong thing, and keep trying, putting up with the abuse).

For the last few months, she kept saying that she felt for the last year that she stayed with me (despite being unhappy) because of the kids... .giving an example of a friend who mistakenly did so due to an abusive and cheating ex-husband... .due to her mother to this day staying with her father, who used to be physically abusive, and is still a cheater. I know she kind of resents her mother for not leaving her father earlier... .

She is, of course, reversing the roles. I even told her that (that she is her father and I am like her mother) but she doesn't see that. They stay out of duty. So did I... .my co-dependency? I don't know, I am still trying to process it. The "rescue" that I did, which now is obvious, but in the beginning wasn't, because she presents such a competent face to most of the world.

Move in... .first baby way to early... .second baby even though I didn't want another, mostly due to her emotional state... .which I told her when this all blew up. It is, of course, MY fault for not flat out telling her that at the time. My failure as the caretaker. God, this is so sick... .after she leaves, I will still be the financial caretaker for her through the kids.

It could be also that I never had any relationship modeled for me. My single mother was always that. Didn't even get married until I was 25 and 7 years out of the house. Never boyfriends. I often thought that having no father was better than having a poor one. Not sure. Thus, not having any relationship modeled, I built the ideal one in my mind, even though I have always paid close attention to others'. But it was only in my mind. In her mind, her ideal, subconsciously, was to find the caretaker (hence her comments recently about needing someone to "lead and guide" her... .and I failed... .a 32year old woman, feh). Perhaps being the caretaker was also incorporated into my ideal?

It's so hard where I live... .women very aggressive, always looking at the bank account, very entitled. In one sense, I found one less like that due to her home culture, but mix that with metropolitan USA and BPD, it's a bad combination to be continually devalued for not being "the man" enough when in reality I was doing 90% of it well, a lot better than any man's she's met. It's that 10%... .(then it would be another 10%, and so on... .).

Now I'm rambling, sorry... .

Your recounting of your major transgression of getting the wrong size chow mein gave me a flashback Turkish.  I was chomping Doritos as we were watching a movie at my house, and apparently I ate one too many, who knows, but the rage volcano that erupted out of that woman was a wonder of nature, wouldn't have been out of place had I raped and killed her daughter.  What the heck?  So I just started screwing with her, tossed the bag of Doritos to her, just trying to get her to lighten up, shocked and reactionary.  Interestingly, once the windows stopped rattling, her primary emotion was shame.  Had I had the clue then that I do now, I would have realized that was very telling: intense emotions, no control, no ability to soothe, and ashamed of the outbursts.  Shoulda walked, but 'love conquers all'.  Ha!

Don't  beat yourself  up... I think we all ignored the red flags... .I KNOW I did!

Saw the first big melt down 2 months before the wedding... KNEW it was a mistake to get married... but had been so conditioned as a kid to not make waves or embarrase the family I went through with it... I was 17  had no idea I could change my mind!

So here I am almost 33 years later... .still here... still trying to do the right thing... the question is ... the right thing for who?

True. Silly girl.


Interesting, he said he was rescuing me, told me this, but from what? I didn't need and wasn't interested in being rescued from anything. Never did figure that out, other than he claimed "love at first sight." But the father/ mother dynamic? I have been playing my mother's role of co dep trying to keep the ship afloat while he plants mines along the hull.

 I have been playing my mother's role of co dep trying to keep the ship afloat while he plants mines along the hull.

Oh soo true

My heart says yes, but this is what my mind is worried about:

Whoops! Wrong thread! That was supposed to be in the "would you take them back after therapy" thread.

Earliest of red flags? The earliest flag I thought was a misunderstanding. We were at a bar, my ex was loaded, and I said I needed to leave early because I had to call a friend. He went to the bathroom and never returned. He just walked out of the bar without saying he was leaving. I tracked him down at his house later and was like "What happened? You don't just leave without saying goodbye. I was sitting there thinking you were in the bathroom!" And he had a lame excuse saying he was drunk and needed to leave before he got drunker, I was leaving to make a phone call, and he thought he told me good bye. That incident made me angry, I rejected him for a couple days, then I gave him benefit of the doubt and let it go.

Another early red flag was him ditching dinner plans. I was going to make him dinner on his first visit to my home. He texts me day-of saying he forgot he had golf plans with friends and he would be out all day and drinking after and he would call me later. He managed to explain his way out of that one too and I let it go.

The first humongous flag, two months into the r/s, he got very drunk and belligerent. He fixated on something and started raging and wouldn't drop it. He just worked himself up more. He had wild eyes and got to a point where it didn't matter that I was even in the room. He was just carrying on as if I wasn't there. That night he told me I sucked. Those words hit me hard for some reason, harder than if he had used usual curse words. 

Next humongous flag came soon after, when he, again drunk, destroyed my property, called me the c-word, and said he was going to screw his other women. Several days later he left a frantic voicemail saying he needed me and wanted to marry me. 

I was hooked.

Are these 'Watch out, I am an enormous a$$hole  red-flag or are these BPD flags?" I would more say the first.

Mine drop in the textbook BPD version. She copied my hobbies within a week (she had no apparent hobbies on her own). She came on me very strong. She had such an enormous black/white vision to life it was scary. Either something SUCKED or it was AWESOME. I noticed very early that she had very poor communication skills and interpersonal relationship with friends, she basically had no friends.

Her sister was even worse than her (she is the owner of a restaurant in London, and yells everyone away lol).

And of course, her history (rape, physical abuse, mental abuse, bulimia, she caught her father cheating on her mother etc)

Oh that's funny! I'd say both.  :)

First I thought it was enormous a-hole traits, then I really noticed the BPD stuff, like the abandonment/attachment issues, low self-esteem, narcissism, despair, insecurity, etc. which fueled the a-hole and alcoholism behavior.

Like your ex, HarmKrakow, mine also was a terrible communicator. The guy could not sufficiently express what was in his head. I think it was a big source of his frustration.

To this day, it is I who am the terrible communicator in our relationship. At least that's what she always said, and will always believe.

One of earliest red flags i ignored... .

In friendship... .

We communicated a lot via facebook... .

Initially.

I had this propensity... .

That had started before she had even entered my life... .

That i curse quite a bit... .

On my then facebook(permanently closed now)... .

I remember... .

As friendship progressed... .

And we got closer... .

With the accompanying... .

Pull/push dynamics that i had not yet... .

Understood correctly... .

One of the first red flags to appear... .

Was concerning my cursing... .

In facebook... .

As it related... .

To my future introduction to her 2 sons.

I had not met her 2 sons... .

When i was friends with her... .

Nor did i meet them in round 1 of relationship... .

Either.

One day... .

On my facebook... .

On her "push" phase... .

She blasted me on one of my facebook statuses... .

In a long paragraph... .

Stating that... .

"Ironmanfalls... .

If you so much as ever curse like that... .

In front of my 2 sons... .

Our friendship ends right here... .

Right now.

I dont need that kind of language... .

Spoken in front of MY 2 sons... .

And i will be damned... .

If i let you so much as near them... .

Speaking the way you do... ."

I remember my jaw dropping... .

As i read that.

I didnt even know how to respond... .

It had literally come out of left field.

I had shown one of my close friends... .

That comment she had put.

My friend then asked me... .

"Ironmanfalls... .

Do you have her 2 sons on your facebook... .?"

Me: "ummm No... .

I havent even met them... ."

Close friend: "then why is she putting such a comment... .

Like that... .

Making it look like... .

Like you have done... .

Or are about to do... .

In front of her kids... .?"

I had no answer... .

Then.

All i kept thinking... .

Was... .

"Why the f¥ck would i do that... .?

Why in the world is she thinking... .

That i would do that... .

Knowing... .

That i like her like that... .?"

That would be like shooting myself in the foot.

Fast forward... .

To round 2... .

Of relationship.

(I didnt get to meet her kids in round 1)... .

I finally get to meet them.

Remember the cursing tirade... .

I described above... .?

Well... .

In person... .

As me, her... .And her 2 kids all spent time together... .

I would watch how she interacted with her 2 kids.

Starting from... .

The 2nd trip back to her house... .

My exUBPDgf cursed in front of... .

And at... .

Her 2 kids... .

CONSTANTLY.

The first time... .

I heard her say a curse word... .

I thought... .

Maybe that was a slip... .

Nope.

It would occur... .

Again and again.

And i never cursed in front of them... .

The entire time.

And here i was... .

Getting blasted... .

For a behavior... .

That she was doing.

I remember asking her... .

":)o you remember telling me... .

Not to curse in front of your kids... .?

Why are you always cursing at and around them... .?"

Her: "They are MY kids... ."

"I can do that... .And you CAN'T... ."

My mind at that point... .

Literally recoiled.

I didnt even respond after that.

I was absolutely... .

Floored.

Wow.

The entire time... .

I never uttered a curse word in front of them.

Hmm all this talk about early red flags got me thinking. I remember we had been friends for a while and then the sexual tension got too much and we started to "date" I wasn't too concerned how fast things went. It is only now, and sometimes I joke it away because I realize how huge it was and how much I missed it... .but that on our first real date she talked about having kids.

I am not able to have my own for various reasons, and she was in her mid to late 30's and for various reasons had been unable to have kids bc she never found a partner she wanted to do it with (now I know why) so  she was looking into IVF.  She had shared this as friends before, but then she had me consult on donors on the first date, before we ever kissed! Which I foolishly did. I was 25 and she was 38 and I wasn't ready to be a parent so it didn't phase me because I didn't expect it to last between us and I only really cared about the sex at that moment. Of course eventually she got pregnant and I have a beautiful daughter to show for that. However can we say HUGE red flag... .but for what it was worth I "fell" for it and also had my own issues which allowed me to dive right in despite my inner voice giving me feelings of hesitancy. In hindsight, sadly I felt hesitant even on our wedding day. I just assumed it was cold feet, not having even heard of BPD. So I don't beat myself up, I just wish I had been more informed.