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Always wondered if my exuBPD gf believed her own lies. I would catch her in a lie and present evidence that she is lying and she will still deny it or later on come up with a somewhat plausible explanation. It always takes a day or so for her to come up with something. When she wasn't able to explain the lie then she would find blame in me to deflect the issue. Are they so good at lying that they can convince themselves of the lie or do they realize they were caught and must protect their fragile self image?

I would always feel compelled to call her on her lying especially when she would accuse me of being a liar. Was I just wasting my time trying to present evidence and prove her wrong?

Im not sure on this. What i think is it not so much they lie and believe it. Its that is their perception and in their mind it whats right. Im speaking from expierence with mine. me and her had this same argument over and over. I gave up. When she told me it was her perception of things. But looking at BPD feelings equal facts. That might explain alot.

I agree - I think they are telling their truth. It's just that their truth isn't always the same as the truth.

I don't think there's a group of people on the planet with as little self-awareness as most BPDs - I don't think mine had any idea that he was contradicting what he said last time or that neither agreed with what he'd said the time before that. He seemed genuinely confused by my reactions... .

Yeah agreed. I used to always try explain the issues to my ex but she could never see them. Either that or she would avoid them and just say "I'm not making you happy"

I agree with M,

There were times that my ex perception was so farfetched:

for example he would talk about an old ex, he would go on her Facebook and have me sit down and he would recall stories. Oh how she was like me? Good girl. etc... I was like uhmmm ok... and your point is? Then he would message her, and try to add her. I asked why would you open that door? I mean is it really necessary? Exs are to be in your past (I don't carry baggage with me). There is none of that. He got so angry he throw the computer monitor across the room. Oh and told me I was pissing him off. Logically I couldn't wrap my head around it.

Another instant:

My oldest daughter doesn't have Facebook (she shares mine) but her friends add us both (no clue why) and well her acquaintance added my ex onto her (that child is a bully). My oldest got so worked up telling my ex to take her off... my ex blew up and said STOP CONTROLLING ME! You are just a kid! I tried to explain that home is her safe place, we are her parents. Her needs, the respect has to be given because she has had issues with this girl. Nope, he wasn't listening. She felt so betrayed. Then his girl started putting her down on his wall on Facebook on some pictures of my daughter. Damaged had already been done and that just added more to it.

Every time you try to rationally explain how reality is they feel like you are controlling them and they are right.

Even when my oldest had  a yard say and she made over 150 dollars. I was going to give her 20 dollars for the patience she had and how much effort she did bargaining with the customers. Well my ex took ALL the money. My daughter said hey, that is not all yours (with a smile). He looked at her with the MOST mean look his face and said Who's is it? She answers it's all of ours. Mom, me and my sister's too. He got right into her face and said NO ITS NOT, ITS MINE! She said but I worked hard for two days. He put her down and told her to get out of his face because he was going to do something to her. I was so angry. He never rewarded the girls or anything. He just was a mean man and every time I tried to reason it was useless. The only see their side and full control.

A pwBPD lives in transitory moments... .

From point A... .

To point B.

So if the reality as they perceive it... .

Does not fit... .

In between the 2 points... .

They will rewrite(lie)... .

That very history... .

So that it conforms... .

To the version... .

That only exists... .

For them... .

Between those very 2 points... .

Irrespective... .

Of the very real reality... .

That is concurrently occurring... .

Around them... .

In the process.

Is that illogical to us... .?

Yes.

Quite scary too.

That is the world... .

For a pwBPD.

And it hurts.

Beyond.

Having to deal... .

With the consequences... .

Of having been... .

With such a person.

My exUBPDgf lied too.

Lots of small lies.

Scares me to think... .

Of the lies... .

That i did not know about.

Perhaps it is better for me... .

For my ravaged psyche... .

To not know.

She hurt me enough... .

As it is.

My ironman suit... .

Was not immune... .

To her lies... .

Either.

Mine would be in Starbucks and lie and say she was in the Coffee Bean. It was THAT pathological. I told myself if she could lie about that, the bigger things are easy for her.

I told her it was definitely over with us a month ago. That was when I flat out asked her is she was still in contact with her flame. I said, no calls, no emails, no texts. "No, No, No." You're lying to me! "No I'm not!"

She knew darn well that I had just checked her phone (she password locked it right after that). So she knew that I knew she was lying to me. When it became that pathological, as you say, I slammed down the door. Hard. Previously, she would "misinterpret" and gaslight, but never that pathological lying, like a bratty little kid. So that became her. And I knew I could indeed never trust her again. (that along with the secret email account she thinks I don't know about)

So done.

i agree with mitchell and escaped. they really believe these things, and defending yourself only makes them shut down.


we got a new dog and i suggested that we not let the dog get in the habit of jumping onto the bed. "oh sure, i wouldn't allow that!" that night i get home and there's the dog on the bed, next to her. now the dog was adorable and she could just have said "ah maxen, she so cute!" and i would have given in. but she had to lie. and i wish, hopealways, that i had realized that the one who is dishonest in small things is dishonest in great things, like deceit and infidelity. she even lied about lying during her infidelity. when i faced her with it she accused me of acting morally superior for practicing honesty.

I don't know for fact that they believe their own lies, but I do believe that their self esteem is soo fragile that any

insinuation that they are lying or not being truthful is just not tolerable to their sense of self.   Their is no room in their minds that can accept that they are anything besides perfect to the outside world, and admitting to lying would be proof against them.  I think that whatever they "Feel" at the time is what becomes Right for them, it becomes their reality, their fact.  Its a very sad way to live when you think about it. 

In bold.

That.

Bingo.  |iiii

I believe they KNOW wholeheartedly and CLEARLY they are lying.  I caught my exh so many times.  To believe they have no grasp on this is merely just giving them a blanket pass in my opinion.

If they lie about something like cheating, or where they were, or if they were doing something they weren't supposed to be (drugs, drinking, spending $, gamblings), if you find evidence of another bank acct, another credit card, a secret email or po box - they know very clearly they are lying to your face and whether or not they did those things.

They know they are lying, and they can even feel shame and guilt.  I witnessed this with my exh.  If they do experience the shame and guilt, they begin to reframe the situation in their minds to alleviate it.  Not the lie itself, like whatever their "transgression" was didn't happen - but WHY they HAD to do it.  They frame things in their mind about YOU so they can feel justified for facts (things they did) they can't lie to themselves about.

So they don't believe their lie and they do know they were lying, but they write things in their mind in a way that they believe they were justified and "right" in that situation because you have been blamed and painted black for their crappy behavior because they can't be the bad guy.

If they don't feel the shame and guilt it is because they have already rewritten WHY they did it in the first place.  They can become desensitized to behavior over time as anyone can when they engage in a type of behavior that is against their value system.

In bold.

Spot on.

And that... .

Has disastrous consequences... .

On us.

That is why... .

The pwBPD... .

Has to be kept... .

On the other side... .

Of the NC wall.

yes it does.

IME they make up their own reality. What they do technically isn't a lie because it was justified from what was already made up in there minds.

When it's not there own reality and they really do lie about something, I've found they're not very good at it.

Willbegood --

I've also found there's a difference between when mine was lying, and knew she was lying (she was pretty transparent), vs. when she was deeply, entirely convinced that she was telling the truth even though it didn't line up with objective reality.

Near the end of our relationship, when she was disintegrating badly, she'd defend herself with flat out denial (I wasn't drinking that much/using that much/hoarding) -- and I'd confront her with the facts (empty bottles/heaps of trash, etc) -- she'd appear very confused, actually, and get dissociative, or start derailing or kitchen sinking, but not addressing the fact vs. perception disconnect.   It was spooky.

I think it depends on the lie.  Some lies may be more difficult for them to frame and reframe than other lies. 

It seemed like my ex had a pretty easy time believing the lies that he told about events that he didn't feel much embarrassment about.  It was sort of like he had rewritten history in his mind so that events would fit in with that view that he had of himself.  That can really do a number on those of us who are in touch with facts surrounding an event. 

When I'd bring the facts to his attention, he sometimes seemed truly baffled.  Said little,  sometimes made excuses, or said nothing. When I initially began seeing this I thought he had memory problems. The more that I saw this though, I became aware he'd actually rewritten history because he couldn't handle the truth. 

Events that caused him to question himself, or embarrassment, he had more difficulty with on an emotional level.  He would share the new version of events with anyone who would listen, as though retelling that story, and gaining sympathy from others, would validate the fiction he had created.  The more who sympathized or even believed him, the more he believed his own lies. Some of these 'spun' events went back 20 years.

I caught him in a very big lie that many others in his life had heard.  I looked at public records to find the truth, and then confronted him with that information.  There was no truth at all to a story that I believe was completely fabricated by my ex for his own personal gain.  The target of his slanderous campaign was impacted professionally, personally, and moved out of state to begin a new life.  When I confronted my ex with the facts that I'd found that clearly showed he had lied he had no answers.  All he said was, 'I didn't know that'.  Quite sick. He nearly ruined a man's life and livelihood.  Quite frightening indeed. 

 

Mine does that too -- the telling and retelling -- and I think it is an attempt to convince herself as well as others of the truth, as you said.  This scares me a great deal, as I seem to be the target of all her hatred and energy at the moment.

I know the feeling. 

I think I would be quite anxious and scared if I were still living in the same community as my ex. 

He is vindictive, and I don't trust him now at all.

The last two months of my relationship with him, I began sensing (on an intuitive level) that he really wanted to punish me in some way if I left him. He knew I was on the fence about our relationship, and my remaining in that community, and he had already begun the campaign to control (or destroy me).  He made some very strange statements, and made requests of me that didn't feel right at all.  In fact it made my skin crawl. I believe he was trying to find a way to prevent me from leaving him. 

My guard was completely up in the days leading up to my leaving the community.  He was out of town but I know he had asked his friends to keep an eye on me.  It was just really alarming.  I think that if I hadn't also had my own set of friends in that community, I would have been bullied by his.  So glad I left.  So glad I'm N.C.