BPDFamily.com

On my way to the city... .

I remembered the scene... .

From the movie Star Trek: First Contact... .

Where the Federation was under attack... .

By the Borg... .

A ruthless cyborg race.

And there was one quote... .

From Captain Picard... .

That struck me... .

And our collective experience... .

Here... .

"I will not sacrifice the Enterprise... .

We've made too many compromises already... .

Too many retreats... .

They invade our space and we fall back.

They assimilate entire worlds... .

And we fall back.

Not again.

The line must be drawn here... .!

This far... .

No further... .!"

Cliche... .?

Yes.

But within those words... .

Lies what we... .

Deal with.

With our exBPD partners... .

Our lack of self love... .

Mine included.

Self love... .

Would have drawn... .

That line in the sand... .

And said... .

It stops here... .

No further.

Had I loved myself enough... .

To put myself first... .

I would have... .

Been able to say that... .

Your actions... .

Your treatment of me... .

That stops here... .!

Here... .

And... .

No further... .!

I sacrificed... .

And compromised... .

Too much... .

By letting her return to me.

That line... .

Is drawn.

I will stand behind it.

Otherwise... .

She will annihilate me.

And I cannot do that... .

To myself... .

Anymore.

That's a really good realization, IronMan.

I'm a Trekkie so I love this analogy.

Unfortunately, I'm a codependent Martyr too. Look at all these things I do for you and the sacrafices I've made. Why don't you love me? Why don't you appreciate me?

It took me a while to realize that I was picking men who not only didn't know how to love and respect me, they didn't think they really needed to. My self sacraficing was an expectation. It's just not how healthy relationships work but instead how dysfunctional ones do.

It was the vicious cycle of my own victimhood. Like you said about "self-love" I didn't truly believe I deserved any better (thanks to FOO issues) and therefore never drew any line in any sand.

I OK'd all the lying, cheating, demeaning, or whatever. It's all I knew - partially because I didn't even like myself all that much.

It really did start with me. Valuing me. Hardest thing I've ever done.  

Good stuff, IronMan.  

H2O... .

You are right.

It is absolutely necessary.

It has been absent... .

All my life.

All 36 years of my life.

No further.

Dream... .

Valid statements.

I am a Trekkie too.  lol

I allowed my line... .

To be criss crossed... .

At will.

At my own detriment.

My future self... .

Would disown me... .

If I continue... .

On that course.

Of course my exUBPGf... .

Treated me like sh¥t... .

I allowed it.

I didn't stand up... .

For myself.

I cowered... .

Within... .

My Ironman suit.

And hoped... .

Against all hope... .

That she would stop.

She stopped... .

All right.

That was when she... .

Discarded me.

No more.

I haven't been good to myself... .

And 2 rounds with her... .

Exemplified that very... .

Flaw... .

Within me.

"Rumours of my assimilation have been greatly exagerrated" -- Picard

Your line drawing starts today, IronMan. 

What better day then today?

That's her gift to you, she was the catalyst to you learning to love yourself... .that's the best kept secret in this.

Hope and honoring yourself is your greatest weapon against this self loathing that so, so many of us suffer from.  I don't see it as a flaw. It's just needing better skills.

You are saying "enough". Right now. Just by being here, with us. You are honoring yourself. You are finding the reasons, the answers and you are trying to make your life better.

Inspiring others to do the same.

Look at you, drawing all kinds of lines.

Self love, self respect... .some people grew up to think that was selfish, egotistical.  "Always think of others first," many of our religious instructors taught.  And we misunderstood and believed that meant that OUR NEEDS DON'T MATTER!  Nonsense!  Our needs do matter!  How can we possibly help others, our community, our world... .if our own tanks are empty? 

"Love others... .AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF!"

Fiddlestix

Sounds like you are standing up for yourself and looking out for yourself now, Ironman. Good for you!  |iiii

It is so inspiring to see these type of posts which show, very clearly, progress, healing, and hope.  Keep it up! Proud of you.

Ironman, just by acknowledging that there needed to be a line drawn in the sand to begin with, you are ahead of the game.

Stick to your boundaries and treat yourself with love care trust and respect.  Others will follow suit by your example. 

Those who don't will fall by the wayside quickly you will see.

That was great! I'm not a Trekkie! But it makes we want to be!  :) thanks so much for sharing that! 35 plus years of marriage and I drew a line in the sand a few times, but each time I allowed my uBPDh to take his foot and brush it away. I felt like I needed to keep the peace, not make waves, keep the home together for my kids. The kids were out of the house and I realized there was no me left. We have to honor ourselves or we can't honor others. I left the house and drew another line. Got some help and when I returned my h remarkably has not crossed that line nearly as much or as severely as he has in the past. But I know I need to remain vigilant. Because with this illness, he'll do it if I let him!

I will reply to you guys... .

When I get out of this... .

Driving class... .

(Learning how to drive).

Fiddle... .

I was too concerned... .

Filling her tank... .

And others... .

While my own tank... .

Was constantly... .

Empty.

My care taking role... .

I have long been... .

Accustomed to... .

Has left me... .

Exposed... .

To this.

Learning... .

Yes.

I am still healing.

Hope... .

You are very inspirational too.

I am trying.

Olio... .

That acknowledgement... .

Has been... .

A painful process.

It originates... .

From my childhood.

Lin... .

Welcome.

35 years is a long time... .

You are brave... ,

For enduring that.

I know what you mean... .

By not creating waves... .

And keeping the peace.

It was the same... .

For me.

In round 2... .

I knew of her BPD... .

And I tried... .

So hard... .

To not create waves... .

That... .

The one wave... .

That was... .

Inevitable... .

The tsunami one... .

Created on the day... .

She was triggered... .

Was the one... .

That... .

Was inbound... .

And no amount... .

Of trying... .

Was going to keep... .

That one out.

And it came... .

As I long knew... .

And feared.

And wiped me out... .

Just the same.

No more waves for me.

I can't.

I just can't.

I draw my line... .

hit_____

Here.

No further.

Hang in there.

You are not alone.

I should have... .

Escaped... .

When i saw... .

The tsunami wave... .

Form... .

On the day she was triggered.

When it was... .

A speck... .

An ominous peak... .

On the horizon.

My failure... .

To do that... .

To watch out... .

For me... .

For my best interests... .

Means... .

I now see... .

Those waves... .

Everywhere.

And... .

I try and stay... .

On the high ground... .

Far away... .

From the destructive impact... .

Of such a wave.

My seclusion... .

In a way.

Ironman... .

Such a good thought. I am now learning the value of drawing lines as I have allowed myself to be devalued and controlled by her madness. I am now starting to draw lines in the sand so as to protect myself and improve my health and release the compassionate and caring man that I know I am.

As DreamGirl says: "Hope and honoring yourself is your greatest weapon against this self loathing that so, so many of us suffer from." Thank you DreamGirl! How encouraging and true!

Since I "discovered" BPD I can now see the enormous ramifications of BPD on my 32 year relationship. I am beginning to now see what the games are and how I sacrificed my goodwill and compassion for her by becoming controlled and devalue by this disease. My perpetuation of the madness is disturbing. Something I am still coming to terms with. However, now that I am aware of it... .LINES!

I believe my "line" is not a single stroke though, but one that I am continuing to discover and draw as I face the enormity of this issue in my life. I am considering drawing mine so that at some point when it is finished, that the end of the line will connect with the starting point, so as to encircle me and protect me from the sneaky and perverse ways this illness tries to harm and hurt me when I am least aware of it. This way, if I am encircled by my line, I can somehow protect and preserve myself from all sides from the onslaught that may never end, allowing me to face the rest of my days in a healthy and productive way. After all, I still would like some woman to understand and love me for who I am and not what I am forced into being.

We all should have left when we first saw this, or at least the second time.  We knew there was something not right in their head, but could not get ourselves to imagine the possibility it was a mental illness.  Lesson learned. Life is full of lessons.  If we dwell on the pain and not learn the lessons we will never grow.  You are healing and growing Ironmanfalls.  Nice to see that.

In bold.

Well described Gopher.

I can visualize that.

Your awareness... .

Of having to draw those lines... .

Is huge.

It will only help you.

Hang in there.

Hope... .

After round 1... .

I didnt take... .

Any really... .

Appropriate... .

Fundamental steps... .

To learn from that lesson.

Round 2... .

Woke me up to that... .

Completely.

Steps have been taken.

Round 3... .

Is not an option.

"After round 1... .

I didnt take... .

Any really... .

Appropriate... .

Fundamental steps... .

To learn from that lesson.

Round 2... .

Woke me up to that... .

Completely.

Steps have been taken.

Round 3... .

Is not an option."

Round 1 - same with me

Round 2 - same with me

Round 3 - same with me and that means we ARE healing, introspecting, and will come out of this stronger than ever.

Same here.  I'm fully awake now.  No Round 3.

Great to hear that Letitbe! Time for us to stand up!

And hoped... .

Against all hope... .

That she would stop.

So I wouldn't have to make her stop. 

I am a good person.  If I am a good person wouldn't this person recognize this value in me and follow the social and reciprocal norm healthy people follow in a loving relationship? 

This is what we do.  We are not strong against the disordered.  We want to be treated the way we treat others.  Our weakness is not wanting to have to assert ourselves and be confrontational because we want to love and give enough for others to see our value and give back.

We may have to learn to communicate better, to not be afraid to calmly express ourselves in positive ways.  That never was a problem for me, except when dealing with someone who would emotionally attack me for trying. 

I may have to assert myself.  I will never blame or beat myself up anymore because I have to in the face of the callous nature of another.

It is a learned task difficult for a gentle and empathetic heart.   There is no shame in this.

Great Thread!

Seashells... .

I wasnt able to assert myself... .

To a full capacity.

My continued staying... .

In such a relationship... .

Only highlighted my weakened... .

Position.

My eroded self esteem.

My Ironman suit... .

Riddled... .

With holes... .

And ripped apart metal.

It pains me... .

To remember this.

That i allowed myself... .

To be so shabbily treated.

SeaShells


Dealing with BPD, to assert yourself was only to invite worse abuse. To stand up for yourself, was to get hammered. Then I learned that walking away was not conceding defeat. Although to me, it will feel like defeat to not speak up for myself.

There is really no chance of an understanding or a meeting of minds with BPD. Empathy for their partner does not exist. If you are no longer there, it will not matter. I chose/ choose to lose myself in the smoke of my boundaries and remove myself completely from the chaos. We can heal, they can not. It still hurts.

no empathy?  i think you're thinking of NPD or sociopath, something like that?  i don;t recall seeing "lack of empathy" as a symptom/critera for BPD.  i've personally seen pwBPD exhibit empathy.

and actually, they can get better.  they can heal.  research shows it.  in fact, even without treatment BPD dimishes greatly for most people as they age.  it is, from my research, primarily a mental illness of young women.

The lack of empathy is towards the partner over time. You are correct though, they do have empathy, which is how they are able to snare us in. They can read us very well and that is how they are able to mirror. But, the mask drops over time. He had empathy at one time. Now? No. It's really cruel and deliberate. Sometimes so nice  and other times? Demonic.

I've read both, it gets better and/ or gets worse over time. IME? Worse. But hard to tell what was the crux of that as boundaries have played a very important role in that the abuses morphed into the more emotionally nasty sorts as opposed to the clear and obvious ones. The posts of people that have lived with the PD mate for 20+ years? Are not convincing to me to try the longer haul route and hope for change.

Research shows improvement for the low functioning self harming, but have yet to see how it affects intimacy in the r/s , maybe it helps? From what I can tell, BPD is under reported for males. The disorder is also often co morbid with other PD traits and covered up with substance abuse. Becomes a chicken and egg situation at some point I would guess.

Neither was I able to assert myself friend.  I've spent  time on the Staying board and some on the Undecided.  I'm now flirting with whether I want to be posting on the Leaving Board.   (Not trying to discount your pain)  It's an awful place to be and I'm certainly not laying blame on us who get here.  Just trying to look at what I need to do to avoid it again.   Journeying through trying to find meaning and answers myself as well.

The line you wrote, which I quoted earlier resonated with me.  I didn't want to see the flags and I wanted to avoid having to realistically assess the potential for change or lack thereof in the future of the relationship.

I'm evaluating things now.  I can see where I avoided being assertive (I don't mean in an aggressive way) and avoided addressing things in many relationships (I was afraid it would be viewed as confrontational to others).   I'm learning I'm not so comfortable expressing my needs with certain people. 

That was my point.  I've never been "comfortable" dealing with someone who didn't treat me well.  I was never comfortable around someone whom I had to "protect my own best emotional  interests" from because they wouldn't "play fair".   I'm not saying we should be comfortable with people like that, but I think it's healthy to know how to assert ourselves (again I don't necessarily mean in an aggressive way) and our needs to others overall.   

But part of me always wanted to fix those difficult people who made me a little uncomfortable.  Like if I could be kind enough they'd see the light somehow.    *) lol  I don't even think that in itself is such a bad thing, so long as our self esteem isn't  "hooked" into the outcome.   I don't know if that makes sense to others going through this, it's something I'm looking at in myself.

I wish you healing friend.  It's a tough road.  As others have said before me, I think there's a gold mine of lessons for ourselves and our own happiness we may be able to learn and gain from the experience.

Uceme... .

Therapy isnt a cure... .

For the pwBPD.

At most... .

It shortens... .

The episodes of dysregulation.

And this is after... .

Years of therapy.

Of committed participation... .

By the pwBPD... .

To willingly want... .

To get better... .

For themselves... .

First.

BPD is always present.

That they can heal... .?

Heal as in no further abusive behavior... .

Is launched at the non... .?

Please read the staying board.

You will see... .

That for the relationship... .

To stay afloat... .

The non has to make changes... .

To accommodate the pwBPD.

Accommodate as in... .

Absorb further abuse.

Lack of empathy... .?

The empathy is present... .

But is transitory.

From point A to... .

Point B in time.

It is present from start... .

Of idealization... .

Until the day if trigger.

Then it vanishes.

The other side... .

Of the pwBPD... .

Does not display empathy.

Sure... .

There may be scattered cases... .

Of a pwBPD actually getting better.

But define better... .

Better as in... .

Do they return to the partner/s... .

Whom they have destroyed... .

And willingly acknowledge... .

Their part in the destruction... .

That originates... .

From their behavior... .?

Again... .

I dont mean to come at you... .

With this... .

Apologies if it comes across... .

Like that.

I respect your compassion... .

For the BPD sufferer.

I have the same compassion.

I know they are suffering.

But that compassion... .

Has a line... .

That cannot be crossed... .

When... .

It involves... .

The emotional destruction... .

Of another person.

Look at all the accounts on this forum.

It is all... .

People who have suffered... .

As a direct result... .

Of a pwBPD.

I tried so hard... .

To have understanding... .

Empathy... .

Compassion... .

For my exUBPDgf.

Where was her compassion... .

Where was her empathy... .

Where was her understanding... .

In return... .

For me... .

The very person... .

Who only tried to love her... .?

Is she sitting in front of her computer... .

On a BPDsufferer forum... .

And asking herself... .

Why am i doing this... .?

Why did i hurt Ironmanfalls... .

In such a manner... .

Not once... .

But twice... .?

She isnt doing any of that.

She isnt taking any responsibility... .

In the consequences... .

That stem... .

Directly from her actions.

Emotional safety is also the conundrum of the BPD. It's a painful disorder as at the core is a void. Why it even exists is often traumatic. Identity disturbances play a further role in the disorder. Levels of awareness of the impact of the disorder is also another entirely different spectrum.


Interesting thoughts, and perhaps looking into the mirror of your own BPD tendencies at the same time? Hooking the Self esteem into the outcome would be almost assuming poor boundaries and internalizing any negativity. That negativity you have no control over. Push/ pull , black/ white thinking. That is for the pwBPD to work on.

If your partner were to go into therapy as part of your boundaries, you may have a better chance. It's really painful to read the BPD support boards. Some truly struggle and others not. Their denial is too perfect.

i haven't been to the staying board much but i do not believe, not in a million yrs, that accepting to be actively abused is part of ANY recommended mental health/therapy program.

you ask about "cure"... .i don't know, guess it depends on your definition of "cure"... .  i am not a mental health professional, but NAMI (national alliance on mental health) who i believe to be a reputable organization, says this:

www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=44780

"The complex symptoms of the disorder often make patients difficult to treat and therefore may evoke feelings of anger and frustration in professionals trying to help, with the result that many professionals are often unwilling to make the diagnosis or treat persons with these symptoms.  These problems have been aggravated by the lack of appropriate insurance coverage for the extended psychosocial treatments that BPD usually requires.  Nevertheless, there has been much progress and success in the past 25 years in the understanding of and specialized treatment for BPD.  It is, in fact, a diagnosis that has a lot of hope for recovery."

so, a LOT of hope for RECOVERY!  if that is fact, then of what benefit is it for us to say things like "the pwBPD will never get better/never change/never be aware/never get the help they need/etc?"  (btw, "never" and "always" is black and white thinking which is classic BPD trait)  i see that plastered here at BPDfam a lot and it pains me.  it pains me b/c i know the person saying it is saying it b/c they are in PAIN and it also pains me b/c i know that kind of attitude hurts the pwBPD, especially the ones we Nons live with and the ones that are on this board, and even the Nons that are not DX'ed BPD but who do have BPD traits. 

IRONMAN SAID:

The other side... .Of the pwBPD... .Does not display empathy.Sure... .There may be scattered cases... .Of a pwBPD actually getting better.But define better... .Better as in... .Do they return to the partner/s... .Whom they have destroyed... .And willingly acknowledge... .Their part in the destruction... .That originates... .From their behavior... .?

UCMEICU2 SEZ:

well yes actually YES that can and does happen.  it happened to me.  my xBPD has had training in CBT, DBT, etc and yes she is a raving b*tch sometimes but she is also a human, and she has awareness and shows remorse.  YMMV of course!  BPD Dx must meet 5 of 9 criteria, which results ina potential of 256 "faces" of BPD!  so yeah, while there are similarieites there are also VAST dissimilarities in how they present. 

what i am doing is NOT "advocating" for pwBPD so much as advocating for Nons.  for healing, Nons really really really need to stop blaming the pwBPD for everything that went wrong in the r/s and start looking in the mirror.  but wait, thats not even my MAIN point.  main point is i really would like to see us be able to share our pain but also keep in mind the balance of presenting facts as facts, not emotions as facts.

IRONMAN SAID:

Again... .I dont mean to come at you... .

With this... .Apologies if it comes across... .Like that.I respect your compassion... .For the BPD sufferer.I have the same compassion.I know they are suffering.But that compassion... .Has a line... .That cannot be crossed... .When... .It involves... .The emotional destruction... .Of another person.Look at all the accounts on this forum.It is all... .People who have suffered... .As a direct result... .Of a pwBPD.

UCMEICU2 SEZ:

no worries, i dont feel you're coming at me at all.  i enjoy the banter, the exchange of ideas and knowledge.  and i would never suggest that anyone stay in a destructive r/s.  i would suggest however, is it true that we suffered as a direct result of a pwBPD?  or did we suffer b/c of our own actions/behaviors?  i mean "emotional destruction" is something that usually takes a long amount of time, eh?  why did we allow it?  ... .but, even if the pwBPD could be said to be 100% responsible for our suffering while we were in r/s w/them, can the same be said of the here and now?  the on-going suffering that comes from ruminating that goes on and on and on?  nah, we are causing our own suffering now.  well, lemme speak for me, i am causing my own suffering now!

sorry this got so long, if ya got this far thanx!  :)

i think this excerpt from the BPDfam literature ~ and the author of "walking on eggshells" may say it better than me:

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a119.htm

"Inner-Directed Stage - Focus on Ones Self

Eventually, family members look inward and conduct an honest appraisal of themselves. It takes two people to have a relationship, and the goal for family members in this stage is to better understand their role in making the relationship what it now is. The objective here is not self-recrimination, but insight and self-discovery."

this is the phase i'm spending most of my time in these days...   i was in the anger stage for a lonnnng time, believe me!  but i kept it going for waaaay too long and got so burned out on it... .

but if it sounded like i've ever suggested anything other than "insight and self-discovery" i do apologize.

In bold/underlined.

Hope for recovery... .

And actual recovery... .

Are 2 vastly different things.

We can all hope to find a cure for x disease... .

Is a lot different then... .

That medicine found for x disease... .

Has actually been proven to cure the disease.

See the difference... .?

I get what you are saying.

Professionals themselves... .

Do not like treating pwBPD.

That in itself is telling.

If such a recovery was so effective... .

The above Professionals... .

Would not have such a difficult time... .

With such patients.

See the difference... .?

In bold.

Yes.

256 different ways for it to present itself.

Agreed.

And once that presents itself... .

One outcome.

The non is destroyed in the process... .

Emotionally/mentally.

This forum exists... .

Because of that one outcome.

Every account on here... .

A grim reminder of that.

Destruction of the non... .

Does not need to happen over a long period of time.

The emotional abuse... .

From the pwBPD... .

In a short relationship... .

Is just as harmful.

I don't pin all the blame on my UBPDgf.

I accept my role in it.

As I am sure... .

A lot of the non's on here have done the same.

The pwBPD is not accepting... .

ANY of the responsibility... .

Of their role... .

In the very relationship... .

That they were... .

Just as much of a part as... .

As the non.

Where does that acceptance... .

That they do not accept... .

Go... .?

It falls back on the non.

100% responsibility for a relationship... .

That was between 2 people.

Not very fair.

It is no longer 50%.

That other 50% does not simply vanish.

It has to be accounted for.

The constant ruminations... .

Expressed on here... .

Myself included... .

Are tied in to that.

The non has to take full responsibility of the fallout... .

That they did not cause.

That is a pretty big bill... .

To pay.

Is it not... .?

I do get what you are saying though.

ucmeicu2

Agree with your points. Especially my own role. Spent a lot of time staring in the mirror. 


I stayed and worked at the marriage because I had 'hope'. I don't blame him, for the failure at this point. I own that I no longer want to be in a one sided marriage. I have simple human needs as well. For too long, I ignored them. Simple basic things.

How many of those BPD traits are to be confused with C PTSD? Where to draw the line? Had he accepted therapy? I would have stood by him. No question about that. He didn't.


Worlds apart. Agree with your entire post.


Agree with you. The Facts are really ugly. My anger was more than justified. My actions, were a little "off" but cleaned up. And still no change in the fundamentals of the r/s. The core of the r/s could not be repaired by one side.

Drew the line in the sand a couple years ago. Had to. I ache for his pain and I cannot fix it for him. Just can't. I tried and I failed. He knows it too, but the denial and projections slam down in his mind. I can see the gears churning when he does it. It's eerie.

I have to let go because it  is what it is. I know the outcome.

I have struggled with the decision as to whether or not I should or want to assert therapy for my partner as a boundary to remain in the r/s for a couple reasons. I'm not sure he could separate doing it for himself and doing because he felt I forced him to do it "or else".   I also have to question my own commitment as well at this point, regardless.  I have to question at what cost to myself and own well being.   The r/s has been a painful struggle a great deal of the time.  And has become worse in  many ways.

He got a diagnosis in part because I refused to deal with him at one point.  I suspected BPD and didn't make him aware of it as I didn't think it was productive to make such a sensitive assertion based upon speculation.   I expected therapy to follow after the actual dx, but it didn't happen in a committed sense. 

I have definitely been accused by the dpwBPD in my life of having it myself. Among other things I've had projected onto me.   

I'm focusing / working on / looking at co-dependent rescuer type issues in myself.

We all have tendencies of many of the PD's.  Narcissism is alive and well in all of us.   It's when the tendencies are extreme and pervasive they become a problem. 

I just always felt I could "nice" someone into respecting me and treating me well.  It was much more comfortable for me to do that than assertively tell someone my needs with certain personalities.  And I can say there was some invalidation growing up that affected me.  I can express and assert my needs; but I've found it very difficult and intimidating to do so with certain people.  That's my lesson.   I don't think any of us are "comfortable" with being disrespected.  If we were comfortable with it, it wouldn't be a problem nor cause us to respond negatively to it.

From experiences in my own life, I believe many mental illnesses are organic issues of brain function.  JMO.

Not trying to hi-jack your thread IM. 

I ache for his pain and I cannot fix it for him. Just can't. I tried and I failed. He knows it too, but the denial and projections slam down in his mind. I can see the gears churning when he does it. It's eerie.

I could have written this myself just about word for word... .

IMF continuing hijack... .but will bring it back to Lines in the Sand.

It's hard. But so is living with an uBPDh. Hard. Yours has no excuse SeaShells. He has a Dx and now he is using as an excuse. That's not right. Yours is also far more aware. Mine is a blank. He cannot even see me anymore. If that makes sense. He cannot recognize the cause and effect. He can white wash without a second glance.

My husband and I have not had such conversations as you have written about. He can't. He explodes and I leave the blast zone.




Both to protect yourself and the r/s, it is logical to assert that boundary. But that is your boundary. He must want to do the work of his own volition. As long as you remain? He probably won't. Mine only went to counseling after I left.

You can ask him. And he can say No. And you have to accept that and be ready to follow through on your boundary.  :'( The line in the Sand is the one you force yourself to uphold. Not the other way around.


Been accused of everything under the sun and then some. Doesn't make it true. I am not much of a co dep. Probably why the fire works around here. Early on same. My validation skills were also extremely poor. I wasn't reading between the lines and trying to figure out the root cause, I was too busy dealing with the symptoms of the disorder.

True, how pervasive and how detrimental to others and self. Working on that a great deal myself. While at the same time aware that each person we deal with is unique as well. Can't "please" everyone all of the time and it's not going to work anyways. Accept a person as they are , or not. It's tough when it's a PD'd person as the behaviors are not acceptable. And that is where Radical Acceptance comes in. Knowing that they are as they are and will not change. Can you live with that? I don't want to anymore. I can't do it. It's worse than being alone, it's lonely. Worse? He knows what he does. That? No. Do it to someone else. Not me.

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i found more literature, that gives more clearer facts not just "hope".  i post it here so we can 1) "face the facts" which is the very name/slogan for this website  :)  and 2) give YOU some comfort, as i can hear the pain and anger you are experiencing right now    :









that last sentence i bolded, clearly seems to be saying that even without treatment, BPD remits.  treatment just can make it remit faster.

btw, i'm not suggesting in any way that this info be used as a means to stay in a r/s that would be best to get out of.  again, just trying to "face the facts".

icu2

here's another article saying much the same as the last one i posted, but in addition it addresses the questions you raised, which i bolded.  it's called a stigma, and they're hard to change.  i guess that, as with any other invention/innovation/change in societal norms/etc, there is almost always lag time for general acceptance.  dr silk says "much has changed in the last 10-15 yrs" but clearly many healthcare professionals have not kept up.  too bad.:

IRONMAN SAID:

Professionals themselves... .Do not like treating pwBPD.That in itself is telling.If such a recovery was so effective... .The above Professionals... .Would not have such a difficult time... .With such patients. See the difference... .?

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This editorial reports 40% of patients with borderline personality disorder remit (remission) after 2 years, with 88% no longer meeting Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines—Revised or DSM-III-R criteria after 10 years

Editorial

Augmenting Psychotherapy for Borderline Personality Disorder: The STEPPS Program

Kenneth R. Silk, M.D.

The diagnosis of borderline personality disorder conjures up thoughts of helplessness and hopelessness. The helplessness and hopelessness reside not only in the patient but often in the treatment providers as well. A widespread belief that continues to exist among mental health professionals is that treatment does very little for borderline personality disorder patients. Yet they are very difficult to disengage from treatment. Therapists shy away from informing the patient that she has the diagnosis because to pronounce the diagnosis not only would be equivalent to a type of "death sentence" (as we used to be afraid of telling patients that they had cancer or schizophrenia), but it would also cause fear of the rage that the therapist is certain to encounter from the affectively dyscontrolled patient.

Much has changed in the last 10–15 years, but unfortunately too many therapists still feel that borderline personality disorder is untreatable and is a lifelong drain on the energy of the therapist, the psychopharmacologist, and the entire mental health system. While it is true that people with borderline personality disorder utilize mental health resources to a far greater extent than their 1%–2% prevalence would suggest (1), the idea that these patients never change or improve needs revision.

Substantial research now sheds light on many of these mythical assumptions. There is strong evidence from the McLean Study of Adult Development that 40% of patients with borderline personality disorder remit after 2 years, with 88% no longer meeting Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines—Revised or DSM-III-R criteria after 10 years (2). The temporal stability (or lack of it) in a borderline personality disorder diagnosis has also been examined in the Collaborative Longitudinal Personality Disorders Study, and findings suggest that about one-half of those who meet borderline personality disorder on intake no longer meet DSM-IV criteria 24 months later (3).

Even more surprising and myth-debunking is the number of well-designed controlled studies in support of effective treatment for borderline personality disorder patients. These studies, for the most part, are randomized controlled trials of therapies that range from cognitive behavior, such as dialectical behavioral therapy (4) and other more straightforward cognitive behavioral therapies (5), to psychodynamic and psychoanalytically based therapies, which include mentalization-based therapy (6) and transference-focused psychotherapy (7), to the blend of cognitive and dynamic therapies in schema-focused therapy (8 ). And not surprisingly, as therapies that appear to be effective emerge, there are now articles urging that patients be informed of their borderline personality disorder diagnosis (9). It is interesting that most of these interventions are in the nonpharmacologic arena, while psychopharmacologic treatment of borderline personality disorder remains unclear, uncertain, and in general unimpressive.

The article by Blum et al. in this issue of the Journal is another step along the path of developing and testing more useful and reasonably successful psychotherapeutic interventions for borderline personality disorder. What is intriguing about the study by Blum et al. is that this nonpharmacologic intervention called Systems Training for Emotional Predictability and Problem Solving (STEPPS) is essentially an augmentation of or adjunct to treatment that is already occurring for the borderline personality disorder patient. It combines 20 weekly sessions of cognitive behavior and skills training elements with a systems component or approach that involves family members, significant others, and health care professionals with whom the patient interacts regularly. The randomized controlled trial study design measured STEPPS plus treatment as usual (N=65) or treatment as usual alone (N=59) every 4 weeks through the 20 weeks of treatment. The study found that the STEPPS intervention affords greater improvement in the affective, cognitive, interpersonal, and impulsive domains of borderline personality disorder; greater improvement in mood and impulsivity; decreasing negative affect; and greater overall global improvement when compared with treatment as usual without STEPPS. STEPPS is brief, adjunctive, and easy to use by a wide range of mental health professionals.

While the STEPPS intervention did not lead to significant between-group differences for suicide attempts, self-harm, or other measures of crises, the importance of the intervention should not be diminished. There are a number of treatments for borderline personality disorder that do decrease suicidal attempts or self-destructive behavior, but some of those that improve suicide do not necessarily improve depression any more significantly than the control intervention (4, 5, 7). It would appear sensible to use STEPPS as an adjunct, particularly to an intervention in which effectiveness is limited in areas where STEPPS has been shown to have beneficial impact. Perhaps as we study the impact of specific and different psychotherapeutic interventions, we may be able to combine or sequence various interventions to get a greater degree of the effectiveness of psychotherapy. For example, in the case of dialectical behavioral therapy, where impact on depressed mood is not impressive, the strategy of augmenting the treatment with STEPPS might provide more extensive overall benefit.

In addition, STEPPS has what the authors label as a "systems" component. By systems, the authors expect that there is involvement of a friend or relative who is willing to learn about borderline personality disorder and who participates in psychoeducational sessions to help him or her respond better to some of the dysfunctional and certainly confusing and affect-provoking behaviors displayed by the patient. There is a need for more interventions that involve the systems that surround the patient with borderline personality disorder, since it is often the people who interact with the patient who remain perplexed and stymied in knowing how to respond to their patient, friend, or relative with the disorder. STEPPS then provides another systems-based treatment available to families and significant others, along with interventions such as the Family Connections Program of the National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder (www.neaBPD.com). In addition, the patient is expected to be in ongoing therapy and have a mental health professional available to STEPPS in the event of a crisis.

The STEPPS study is a well-designed effectiveness study and was carried out in a thoughtful way, although with a high dropout rate, which is unfortunately not uncommon in such studies. In addition to the randomization, the study is also naturalistic in that outside psychotherapeutic and psychopharmacologic treatments were not controlled other than the requirement of having an outside therapist. It is to the researchers’ credit that they were able to combine the best elements of a randomized controlled trial with this naturalistic aspect of ongoing "outside" treatment.

In an editorial in the June 2007 issue of the Journal, Glen O. Gabbard, M.D. (10), referring to a point made by Daniel X. Freedman many years ago, suggested that we should be cautious not to pit one therapy against another in an attempt to find the very best. What is so helpful about having STEPPS in our therapeutic black bag is that it complements other therapies and need not replace or compete with them. To paraphrase what Marsha Linehan said in her keynote address to the International Society for the Improvement and Teaching of Dialectical Behavior Therapy in Philadelphia in the Fall of 2007, we should derive great satisfaction in knowing that there are a number of different types of interventions that appear effective for borderline personality disorder. The greater the number of available effective interventions, the better the chance that a patient may be able to improve to a degree where she feels that life is once again, if it ever was, worth living. Then we will have more evidence to erase the myth that borderline personality disorder is untreatable and that the diagnosis relegates the patient to a life of helplessness and hopelessness.


Dr. Silk, University of Michigan Health System, Rachel Upjohn Building, 4250 Plymouth Rd., Ann Arbor, MI 48109-5769; ksilk@umich.edu (e-mail). Editorial accepted for publication January 2008 (doi:10.1176/appi.ajp.2008.08010102).

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hope you find this helpful,

icu2

Uceme... .

Well stated and valid response.