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Title: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 11:48:56 AM Hello there folks. Today I am at the limit of what I will accept from my husband.
I started posting about some stress on October 22 and it now seems like a lifetime ago. Here is my thread from the staying board: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=211811.0 This week was mostly dyregulation with a few moments of sanity. This morning he started getting agitated while I was making breakfast and he went into the fridge to find a half drank glass of orange juice he had left in there yesterday. Well I had been cleaning the fridge and decided to drink it because we have lots of orange juice and needed the space. Well he went off his head and told me that I was a RUDE AND INCONSIDERATE person because I drank his orange juice. I tried to validate but no hope! When he got verbally abusive I told him that he cannot act that way in front of our son and started to pack things to get out of the house. He said 'You are destroying our son by teaching him to run away from conflict' (actually I am teaching him not to sit around and be abused or enable abuse). Things are getting to be too much for me. I am having to leave the house due to verbal/ psychological abuse at least once a day for the past few weeks (before we had gotten down to a dyregulation a week with rages being RARE) but recent stress has brought the worst of BPD back on. I had to drop our big dog back off at daycare (he was there most of last week) because my husband is using him as leverage over me. This morning I told him that he needs to GET HELP OR GET OUT. I have never told him this EVER in 10 years but that's where I am today. His behavior now is threatening the emotional well-being of our son. I told him the same. He said NO YOU GET OUT. I said, no the house is stability for our son, plus I am paying all the bills for the house, I won't be leaving. He told be that he would BURN THE HOUSE DOWN RATHER THAN seeing me live in it without him. Believe me if I thought that he was serious, I would have called the police. He said he paid for the house and therefore its his. I said 'no you paid for 2/3 of the house. I paid for 1/3 and I have supported us financially for 5 yrs investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in our family. So no he will not kick me out of my home. I could have walked away again... .I am walking away from the conflict every single day at the moment but the difference is that I don't think that I am going to be able to protect our son from the abuse long term. I have done EVERYTHING THAT I CAN DO for our family (boundaries, validation, etc) I have DBT specialists + a psychiatrist lined up to help if he wants it... .but even though he recognizes his illness he refuses to get help. He called after I left leaving messages saying that I had stolen his watch and his wedding ring (he misplaced both in moments of rage). I just can't keep going like this and my husband honestly believes that I am his problem (says my own lack of consistency is ruining him)... .but that is just a projection. I am very consistent (at least in certain ways). Today I am just done! Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: patientandclear on November 02, 2013, 12:47:12 PM Alli ... .I want to just buttress your instinct that this is something that needs to change for the sake of your son. I am raising a daughter whom I had with the man I was married to, not the man wBPD I am on these boards about. Her dad was verbally, emotionally & sometimes physically abusive to me, until I left when she was 2. If you want to PM about the effects of the abuse before parting versus the challenges of dealing with him as a coparent afterwards, and the longterm benefits to me as a person & mom from no longer tolerating such soul-destroying attacks on my value, I'd be glad to.
You have been heroic in your efforts. You could not give the marriage a better chance than you have. Get help or get out -- good for you. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 01:00:58 PM Frankly at this point, I am open to any and all input that I can get. I spent about an hour on the phone with the Domestic Violence shelter this morning. I am no longer dealing with violent behavior (thank God) but they are an excellent resource.
I talked to them after I told him GET HELP OR GET OUT. I wonder if I should have done another boundary (no swearing or ranting in front of our son... .) I have taken so many steps and so much action - I need to protect this little boy and I feel like I am hanging onto the side of a cliff by my fingernails And yes, I sent you a pm. Thank you patientandclear. I guess its pretty much time for me to get on that 'second bus'. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 02, 2013, 01:30:05 PM Alli,
I think you are doing exactly the right thing by making this time the "fork in the road time." Because it seems almost certain that this is going to be a two-stage (or three-stage) process for your family. First your husband will need time by himself in order to come to his senses. Then he will need to make a decision. Next, therapy will probably need to last a few months before he is stable enough to return home. And so on . . . So I say, "just do it." All of this tough stuff was always going to happen. And it's time for it to happen. You'll get to your goal sooner by letting it happen now. You have so powerfully taken on board the lessons of this online community. Your husband has shown some powerful signs too of knowing he needs help. Let's all hope your experience going forward will benefit all the members of the "Staying" board. This has got to be so tough. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: SweetCharlotte on November 02, 2013, 01:32:35 PM I don't know what kind of violent behavior you have dealt with in the past. If you see it returning, that is a cause for concern. Other than that, the current misbehavior sounds like empty threats and accusations. You have restated the help you have prepared, but you cannot make him accept it.
I'm not good at boundaries regarding verbal misbehavior, so I'm not sure what you can do to prevent your child from hearing stuff that is not good for him. Don't you think he is aware that his Dad is dysregulating and this is not "the real him"? Usually kids begin to understand when there is BPD in the home that episodes of instability crop up. You could remind him that he is not to blame and to let it slide off his back. Sounds like you are standing your ground, and that may be all you can do. If you are serious about the ultimatum, you shouldn't leave the house overnight. You would have to file for divorce with him still in the house, and the proceedings would determine what happens with the family home. Or, you could use his threat to burn it down to get a protection order and have him removed (or use any subsequent violence or threats of violence to have him removed). However, is that really what you want? If this is an upsurge in his stress, you might benefit from counseling to find out how you and your son could weather the storm and get through to calmer seas ahead. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 01:42:23 PM I don't know what kind of violent behavior you have dealt with in the past. If you see it returning, that is a cause for concern. In the past he threw things at me, made threats to hurt dogs, punched holes in the wall and locked me out of the house, took my car keys, took my wallet. When seriously off the rails, he has hurt me as well. All classic DV. Fortunately most of this (except for an outburst this summer) was before our son was born. He knows that he can't get away with that behavior anymore. I haven't seen any of it. The worst that I have seen is breaking plates and bowls and none while I was in the room. Thank God the violence hasn't returned. In fact this is probably the first time that we have had major conflict with no violence. Our son is less than 2 and I do explain that he's ok and that daddy is in a bad mood but its hard on him because his dad is up and down like a yo you right now. What I am worried about is the long-term effect of these dyregulations. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: patientandclear on November 02, 2013, 02:06:06 PM Charlotte, just my view after a lot of reading & experience dealing with my abusive former H: Kids have to know that certain things are unacceptable, that at least one parent KNOWS they are unacceptable, & that that parent will do what it takes to create a safe home environment.
And the idea that words don't mean what they appear to mean, or not always, is a serious mind f*** to for a kid to shoulder. I think Alli is right that this is the time when it is all going to start to count. Alli, forgot I'd shared that "second bus" story earlier--thanks for remembering that detail of my own path away from abuse. I'll respond to your PM as soon as I get to a real keyboard. Like KateCat, I think a set of stark choices -- something he has to do before he gets to be with you again -- is the best chance for your H to claim the rich family life you've been trying to preserve. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 02, 2013, 02:25:31 PM Patientandclear has said what my mind has been groping to formulate. |iiii Paradoxically, Allibaba's husband may need an opportunity to experience gratitude for his pretty darn rich life and his supportive and loving wife. He cannot see it in his current state of distress.
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 04:06:26 PM My husband has a good life (except for the demons in his head and heart). I have basically come to the same conclusion... .Except that I think that he will continue to spiral down until the safety net has been removed and he can feel the real pain of what his life (without his wife or son). I wish there was another way but I doubt anything else will work.
My husband told me this morning that the only reason that he stays in our marriage is the financial reasons (I pay everything). This is a load of 'you know what' I didn't react... .But apparently he really wants to feel the bottom of the barrel... . The base of all of this really doesn't have anything to do w me... .I have a high threshold for pain. It has to do w the fact that I am at that critical moment where my son comes first. It literally breaks my heart but I know what I have to do. He's been warned. I am going to go back to him 1 more time and let him know that he cannot act like that in front of our little boy. He has to act or he will experience the consequences. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: patientandclear on November 02, 2013, 04:23:40 PM OK, I'm at a real keyboard! And will PM you too. But here's my thought. Your analysis that he may have to lose you to realize what he really, really needs to do, makes sense. And the problem is, you've experienced that he can pull himself out of this sort of thing -- for a while. But it also seems pretty well-established that he cannot stay away from this behavior, and he badly needs some tools to help with that when these feelings return--it isn't going to happen organically that he is able to resist this kind of acting out (no fault of his that it cannot happen organically. He's struggling against real demons as you say). You've put the tools at his feet. But he does have to pick them up.
My concern is: you already said "get help or get out." That's you making the executive (and I think abundantly correct) call that he isn't going to fix this sufficiently to meet your requirements for the emotional safety of your son by force of will. So if you go & now say "one more chance," even if he doesn't get help, are you stepping on your own message? You've concluded help is needed. Hard to imagine anyone who's followed your story having any different view. Are you sure you want to back away from that? I understand if you aren't quite sure how to implement it. The logistics are kind of a nightmare. But instead of "if you do it again, I'm going to really mean what I just said," might you consider "I mean what I said. I need you to leave in a week unless you have a DBT appointment and [whatever else you think is your minimum requirement]." Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 06:45:09 PM My concern is: you already said "get help or get out." That's you making the executive (and I think abundantly correct) call that he isn't going to fix this sufficiently to meet your requirements for the emotional safety of your son by force of will. So if you go & now say "one more chance," even if he doesn't get help, are you stepping on your own message? You've concluded help is needed. Hard to imagine anyone who's followed your story having any different view. Are you sure you want to back away from that? I understand if you aren't quite sure how to implement it. The logistics are kind of a nightmare. But instead of "if you do it again, I'm going to really mean what I just said," might you consider "I mean what I said. I need you to leave in a week unless you have a DBT appointment and [whatever else you think is your minimum requirement]." My biggest issue here is that I have never believed in ultimatums with respect to getting help. If someone gets help because they feel backed into a corner, its less likely to work. They need to hit rock bottom and realize that help is the only solution. Here I am and I have inadvertently thrown down an ultimatum. Waverider has always said that boundaries protect you... .they don't force someone to take a particular action. Maybe someone can give some insight on how I get myself out of this little pickle. I am absolutely ready to take the necessary actions to get my husband out of the house if necessary, the fact that he stated that he would burn the house down rather than let me live in it without him is particularly concerning and that in and of itself is enough to legally get him turfed out of here. What are the behaviors that needs to stop 1. my husband losing his mind in front of our son (even though there is minimal verbal abuse in there, the drama just isn't healthy! and 2. the psychological games with the dogs. Also I have been consistently walking away from abuse (ie not allowing my son to see me accepting abusive behavior) but HOLY MACKERAL this is disruptive. With the amount of dyregulations over 2 weeks, I can't string together ANY normal time at home. This CANNOT BE HEALTHY. I see my son becoming clingy to daddy because he's been around our son so inconsistently (lots of time in the basement). Yesterday I told my husband that if he gets stressed out by the dogs - we can put them into doggie daycare (occassionally to give him a break and avoid the 'all the dogs have to go' dramas). I was trying to be helpful in removing triggering issues when appropriate and here I found myself less than 12 hours later dropping our big dog off at daycare. My husband doing a big dramatic good bye to the dog and telling our son that he's never coming back. Good news is that my son doesn't understand this little power play drama yet. But its coming and its coming fast. He'll be two in 4 months and I can just feel that I have so little time left before these family dramas effect him badly and thus the fact that "I am at the limit of what I will accept." Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 07:10:05 PM However, is that really what you want? If this is an upsurge in his stress, you might benefit from counseling to find out how you and your son could weather the storm and get through to calmer seas ahead. No. I don't want my marriage to end. I want my relationship to work and I want to raise our son together because dad brings balance to mom (when he's not dyregulated). Fortunately I have gotten healthy enough myself that I will no longer accept a life of melodrama and abuse. I have had PLENTY of counseling. I am doing everything that I can to help us weather the storm... .but I don't think that this one is within my power. If my husband chooses over and over to drag our son and I through his world of drama... . at some point I have to say OK ENOUGH. If I am missing some option - let me know. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Sluggo on November 02, 2013, 07:29:26 PM allibaba,
It is crazy how things are going well and then "Bam". The days are on fast forward and it seems that each day is really weeks of conflict rolled up into one day and then the days blur together. The little I do know allibaba is that you have a great foundation of clarity that you have given to others on this board (including me)... .trust your gut. I have confidence you will make the most appropriate decision for your current situation. Excerpt Except that I think that he will continue to spiral down until the safety net has been removed and he can feel the real pain of what his life (without his wife or son) you mentioned that your husband needs to hit rock bottom... What has been his safety net?... what would rock bottom look like for him? Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 07:46:50 PM The little I do know allibaba is that you have a great foundation of clarity that you have given to others on this board (including me)... .trust your gut. I have confidence you will make the most appropriate decision for your current situation. Thank you All4BVM that is very kind of you. Excerpt Except that I think that he will continue to spiral down until the safety net has been removed and he can feel the real pain of what his life (without his wife or son) you mentioned that your husband needs to hit rock bottom... What has been his safety net?... what would rock bottom look like for him? His safety net for over a decade has been me and my consistency emotionally with him. He only really became mentally ill about 5 yrs ago... .but I have consistently been there for him (no matter how bad the rage - no matter how long the dyregulation) I am always there to love him and accept him unconditionally after he comes back to normal. Initially it was as a doormat and now after learning about boundaries it has been after enforcing boundaries. Also, my husband has basically become spoiled. He has all the nice things in life and doesn't have to work for them. I have always believed that if we (as a family) have enough then he should have nice things... .but its gone overboard. He's done minimum wage jobs for 4 yrs despite his champagne taste. I have battled to balance a professional career in upper management of a high tech co and my BPD home for years. I have done a good job and have continued to provide. So in summary - rock bottom would be true loneliness. He always comments that I am the only person who is always 'there for him'. And rock bottom would be financial reality. And rock bottom would be (most importantly) being responsible for himself. I've been handing responsibility back slowly over the last 7 months... .but this would take the training wheels off. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 02, 2013, 07:51:34 PM Sorry to see you back at this stage again. Is this the beginning of the end or just another crisis that can be worked through, who knows? The response is still the same, and time will tell.
You left once before, your husband part learned a lesson (and forgotten it) and you learned a lot in the process. You cannot lesson your consequences. Unless you have real means of getting him out of the house your boundary will remain as a demand. If you cannot get him out them you will have to leave, for a prolonged period this time. As you say, you and your son both need stability and some sort of functionality, this constant back and forth is not working. You really need to stay away until not only agreement to treatment, but actual progress is made. Otherwise you will be back here again quickly. Even during treatment, if he attends, times will still be rocky. Is your requirement that he undergoes treatment too harsh? Not really because that is what your heart is telling you. It is not a knee jerk comment, you have thought about this. Boundaries are not about what is fair, they are about what YOU need to be able cope. So they are different for everyone. Even if he complies that doesn't mean things will become tenable either. But it is a realistic start. If you can't get him to leave I realize there will be financial and logistical issues, but they will have to wait until down the track. The dynamics that are happening now are transitional, and the first goal is to find a safe and stable environment. He needs to know the full consequences of your absence, not just his perception that he doesn't need you. His avenue of projection as soothing needs to be cut off. That will only happen if he is left totally responsible for everything that happens around him, and that may take a while. Wishing you all the best with your efforts Waverider Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 02, 2013, 08:14:06 PM Waverider has always said that boundaries protect you... .they don't force someone to take a particular action. In this case it is to protect you, because you have reached the stage where it is important to you. No, you can't make him do treatment, but you can no longer live knowing there is no light at the end of the tunnel. You cannot continue this way, so if he doesn't do therapy, and he may not, you have come to a point you can't continue. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: patientandclear on November 02, 2013, 08:21:14 PM Seconding what Waverider said, and also: I know it feels like you requiring him to leave or alternatively you leaving, for a protracted period, until he is underway in therapy & there is progress, is a step away from him, but really, I think your instinct is right that it is the best hope your relationship has of succeeding. You don't want to get to the point where there is just too much damage & too much water under the bridge to consider continuing on, & I have to think that could happen the way things are currently going.
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 02, 2013, 08:47:14 PM You don't want to get to the point where there is just too much damage & too much water under the bridge to consider continuing on, & I have to think that could happen the way things are currently going. Agreed serious space away is a safety fuse before this escalates whereby it may end up in DV, or at least deteriorates to the point where something happens that makes it irretrievable. Another band aid is not going to stop the bleeding for long. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 02, 2013, 08:59:28 PM Once again, truly truly excellent input here.
Thank you waverider on clarifying regarding the boundaries. I feel better now because - everything inside of me is screaming - this isn't going to work if he doesn't get professional treatment. The only time I left (MAY I think), I left for a short period of time and promised that I would return. This is the first time that I have stated to him that our relationship is in danger if he doesn't take action. Back in MAY it would have been the wrong path (forcing separation), I still had a lot of work that I needed to do on myself IN THE RELATIONSHIP (speaking my truth, standing up for myself). To be honest, at this point I don't think us being in the same house even WITH him doing therapy is the right answer. I think that he needs to experience life without me on a regular basis to truly start healing - even being healthier I am still his GO TO CRUTCH. And yes, I find myself here again... .but here are the positives. Last time, every time something happened, I reached for a beer (not a lot of them, but it was a consistent reaction). I was shaking and scared and crying uncontrollably. Tonight I am calm, I am nursing a bottle of water and I haven't cried once because in my heart regardless of the outcome I know what to do. I took my son to the office and he and I had a productive day catching up on some work :) If my husband can't leave, I can extricate him from the house either through the family courts, through the police, or maybe even by getting a few of his nastier uncles to pay a visit (they would turf him out on his @ss before he could blink). None of the options are ideal, but I'll figure it out. I'd only use the police option in an extreme case... .the lawyer option is a good one and he would HATE the uncles option but it would have the least permanent record effect :) Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 02, 2013, 09:10:07 PM Good to see you are at least keeping your wits about you. You don't have rush anything, a consistent and calm approach is what is required now, at least for your sons stability. Any sort of pandemonium is possible from your husband but you can't control that. He will probably have to go through that before he is even back at the stage where he even thinks about the reality of addressing the situation.
It will take time, no matter what the future holds |iiii Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: eeyore on November 02, 2013, 09:41:15 PM I'm coming in late to this thread. Good for you for putting the best interest of your son first. I love that you recognize that exposure at the youngest ages can have a lasting if not lifelong affect on children.
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 02, 2013, 10:06:11 PM I hate to suggest such an expensive option, but is there any chance you could rent a modest apartment (suitable either for you + son or for your husband alone, depending on how the situation played out)? Some of the other options sound kind of scary and unpredictable.
There have been encouraging stories posted on bpdfamily.com over the years about relationships that came to the point you have now reached and then changed for the better with a partner choosing serious self-examination and therapy. (Posts by "John Galt" are a good example, I think.) There have also been darker tales where a desperate, dysregulated partner has indeed resorted to arson or great physical violence, including attempted strangulation. (The number of hands-around-the-throat episodes recounted have really surprised me.) If there's an option other than having your husband removed from the home, that might preserve everybody's physical and mental well-being at this time of great stress. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: SweetCharlotte on November 03, 2013, 12:28:19 AM Katecat, I don't think a modest apartment would be enough for her, the child, and the (4?) dogs, one of which is a very big dog. I'm a little concerned about the dog situation. This seems to be a stressor on the marriage. Was the H consulted about the acquisition of each dog, and was he in agreement?
If he is ill—both physically and mentally—and unemployed, and a new-ish father, and his wife has taken to stocking up on dogs, that is bound to make him blow his stack. Ali B. can't move out because it would be hard to find a place that would accommodate this whole crew. Moving out could also back-fire, because the H might decide that he enjoys the peace and quiet. It has happened to more than a few who say, "I'll move out and show him; he'll miss me, and want me back so much that he will gladly agree to my terms." It doesn't always work out that way. On the other hand, if she forces him out with a court order, he will harbor such bitterness that he will be unlikely to give in to her demands that way either. Are the dogs a non-negotiable, Ali, or would you be willing to give them up to see whether your husband can cope with daily life better without them? I'm not sure how recently they entered the situation, whether it was one by one or en masse, and to what extent your husband agreed to having them. However, it sounds to me, at least intuitively, that the dogs have pushed things to the crisis/boiling/breaking point. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: NoSocks on November 03, 2013, 12:45:28 AM Hi Ali. I believe you and I spoke at different times on the Stay board. I had a different handle then... .my H started reading my posts so I needed to change it. I feel for your situation. I am now in the process of emotionally detaching for good. I have left my H and have moved in with relatives. I believe the only thing that has changed this time as I have left many tomes before... .including going to the shelter... .is both him and I sat down with a councilor and a pastor and they couldn't believe what they saw. They saw him not answer their questions directly and totally blamed me for everything. They saw him twist things and then to top things off say that he believe I had some kind of PD. For which every professional tells me I don't. Like you, I have brought about the help he is able to access at any time as well as the couples therapy that is waiting to continue when he starts in his own indivudual therapy. He is choosing not to do much. But the real kicker for me is that I am a few hundred dollars short of making my ends meet, and have asked him if he would help. He's totally in the position of helping... .money in the bank... .consistent job. Where as I'm in such a state from being with him doing the roller coaster every single day my mind isn't really allowing me to get the job I know I should be able to get. And yet he doesn't want to help. I feel I completely opened myself up to ask for the money... .he has been telling me he wants to take care of me be a good husband... .and yet he tells me I should be able to make my own money and go out and get a job. This pretty well devistated me. I am trying. I have gone to one interview... .daily working on finding work. And he knows this... .but it doesn't change anything... .it's just him AGAIN not being there when I need him... .and further to that insulting me by basically saying I using him for money. He says one thing and does another. This was for the last time. Nothing is going to change this individual. And if there happens to be an awareness on his part... .getting help will happen so slowly ... .that I'm just not prepared to be his punching bag anymore. I deserve so much better... I too have done everything I can to have help right there for him... .deep down in my heart I'm done. Just like you. But, really done. I reached a point where my feelings are moving on... .I have to meet my practical needs and in a way that is so below where I should be while his has improved and is in a better place than before we met. This is what is bringing about the change this time... .he is never going to see big R-reality. I need to stop me from going backward. But as I said it was the validation of others, moving out and telling him that I didn't know how things were going to end up and the fact that his family enables his behavior and trreats me horribly. All of that is what did it.
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: GreenMango on November 03, 2013, 01:11:26 AM Maybe it may help to review the structure of a therapeutic separation and what it entails.
Heres a bit from the workshop with the link (just click the blue text and it should take you there): Therapeutic Separation - Restarting the Relationship Sometimes the bad habits of the relationship are so ingrained on a day to day basis that recovering from within the current living situation is nearly impossible. Many couples hang in there hoping for the best and when it doesn't come, end up in a divorce that neither may have really wanted. There is an alternative - therapeutic separation - members here have had varying levels of success and failure with this. The goal of this workshop is to talk about: 1) When does a therapeutic separation make sense 2) How is best managed 3) What are the tricks and the traps As an overview and to help start the discussions, I have briefly summarized Therapeutic Separation below: Goal: To reinvigorate a broken relationship that has been damaged by stress, work, children or other distractions. Involves counseling and both parties seeking to improve the marriage. Also, can serve a way to experience that harsh reality of what a divorce would feel like before jumping directly to divorce. Distinct from a Trial Separation, where the goal is to test out separation, not to renew the relationship. Term: Three months to one year, although more than six months may lead to increased distance in the relationship. Structure: The terms of a therapeutic separation are highly flexible and are initiated by the therapist and agreed to by the couple. The only required terms are that both parties are in solo counseling during the separation and that there is a set end where the couple agrees to come back together. Therapeutic separation can begin with a period of NC (no contact) to allow both sides to have a break, heal and grow before starting interactions. After the NC period, the remaining interactions are limited to “dates”, often weekly, where the couple can get together rediscover the positive aspects of their relationship. Problem solving during dates is discouraged in order to prevent further harm. The dates are usually followed by joint therapy sessions where communication and negotiation skills can be learned and any problems with the date may be addressed. Living Arrangements: Couples may choose to have one member move out for the term of the separation, or rent an apartment and take turns switching who lives in the marital residence—especially if children are involved. However, if the separation turns to a divorce proceeding, the person living in the house at that time will likely be allowed to remain there. Custody: Custody is negotiated up front and can take any acceptable form. Finances: The goal of this type of separation is to come back together, so finances are often agreed to be handled as usual. This should be expressly agreed to however to make sure one spouse does not take this opportunity to clean out the bank accounts. There are no legal obligations regarding disposal of assets during a therapeutic separation, so anything can happen. Risks: -The break caused by the separation may help one the parties disconnect and actually accelerate the end of the relationship. -A pwBPD may see the separation as abandonment and sink deeper into their condition rather than improve, or act out in unpredictable ways. -If the TS does not succeed and the couple heads to divorce, any terms agreed to in the separation could have an impact on the divorce settlement. This could provide critical in custody and home possession issues. References: <a href="www.davismintun.com/2007/01/therapeutic-separation-for-couples.html" target="_blank">www.davismintun.com/2007/01/therapeutic-separation-for-couples.html[/url] <a href="www.marriagemissions.com/to-stay-or-not-to-stay/" target="_blank">www.marriagemissions.com/to-stay-or-not-to-stay/[/url] Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: SweetCharlotte on November 03, 2013, 01:20:41 AM Feeling too ignorant to be expressing so many opinions on your situation, Ali B, I read one week's worth of your past posts.
Your H has beaten you on two occasions. Recently he has threatened to "cave your head in." He has played football, almost to the point of making a professional team. He may well have brain damage from repetitive head trauma, a common ailment of football players that can make them impulsive and violent. Many of these guys unfortunately become unemployable and unfit for relationships. They over-spend and cannot manage their finances. They often wind up committing suicide. Regarding the dogs, they are near the crux of the issue I feel, yet they are not the issue. You will not get rid of them because they make you feel safe. Your H cannot stand their presence because they are a constant reminder that he has failed as a husband. He is no longer your protector; you need protection FROM HIM. At first I thought this was just an upsurge in his stress complicating his BPD, and that removing the dogs might placate him. After reading your back posts, I see it is worse than that. I would not encourage you to weather this storm or look to calmer seas ahead. The only smooth sailing you will find will be with someone else, or on your own for a while with your son. I know that it hurts to give up the dream of raising your little man alongside his father. However, as you have said, what's going on now is not healthy. I would have him removed from the home based on his latest violent act or violent threat. Even though it means a criminal record for him, he is not employable anyway as it stands. I would not be focused on getting him help so that you two can work things out. This type of head injury, sad to say, does not respond to therapy. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 03, 2013, 01:37:08 AM This type of head injury, sad to say, does not respond to therapy. Can't make assumptions above what is causing this downturn in menatakl state. Ali must stick to the facts and principles, and they are that the behavior of late is unhealthy for herself and son, both mentally and physically. No matter the cause. As a result steps need to be taken to protect themselves from it until such time as there is real and ongoing improvement. Whether this be short term, long term or permanent remains to be seen, and ultimately is up to her husband Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Surnia on November 03, 2013, 01:43:14 AM I am late her too
So sorry to hear all this Allibaba! Its really a tough situation for you and your son. May I ask you about what kind of advise the DV center gave you? Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 03, 2013, 08:07:40 AM Wow I went to sleep for 11 hrs and things went crazy on this post. lol and thank you for caring. The 'softest pillow is a clear conscious' and I slept very well last night.
I think (once again) that waverider is right. Nothing needs to happen quickly. Stability is what is important for all of us. My husband has removed all of his mother's jewelry from my jewelry box and put away all the gifts that I have given him. I don't know what the logistics will be but I was very clear yesterday that the relationship will not continue as it is. I am not in any danger from DV here as long as I am careful. Thank you GreenMango. Yes we need a therapeutic separation. Hopefully it is clear to everyone here that I am still fighting for my marriage. Katecat, I don't think a modest apartment would be enough for her, the child, and the (4?) dogs, one of which is a very big dog. I'm a little concerned about the dog situation. This seems to be a stressor on the marriage. Was the H consulted about the acquisition of each dog, and was he in agreement? If he is ill—both physically and mentally—and unemployed, and a new-ish father, and his wife has taken to stocking up on dogs, that is bound to make him blow his stack. ******** Are the dogs a non-negotiable, Ali, or would you be willing to give them up to see whether your husband can cope with daily life better without them? I'm not sure how recently they entered the situation, whether it was one by one or en masse, and to what extent your husband agreed to having them. However, it sounds to me, at least intuitively, that the dogs have pushed things to the crisis/boiling/breaking point. Sweet Charlotte - its not the dogs. Its my husband's incredibly difficult eating situation that is 'eating at him' - excuse the pun. He's got a high metabolism, gluten intolerant, and diabetic (in addition he can't eat perservatives due to the fact that it triggers his rheumatoid). If there is one issue here... .that is it. Most of these things are actually related to the gluten (gluten causes violent mood swings in those that are intolerant. It also shuts down the immune system (rheumatoid and diabetes are autoimmune diseases). He refuses to go gluten intolerant because he is a picky eater and despite the consequences - HE DOESNT WANT TO. Our dogs are 11 yrs old - 5 yrs old in age and we have had all of them since a young age. The big dog that he keeps wanting to get rid of is HIS DOG, he wanted him and we've had him for YEARS! They aren't the issue and I have provided plenty of solutions to address his stresses around the dogs. He keeps ranting and raving about them going to the bathroom in the house, destroying things, throwing up. None of these things have actually happened since Sept when our oldest ate a frog and got sick as a result! Our dogs are perhaps some of the most well behaved and amazing beings on the planet. Smart, protective, loving. They are not being given away because my husband can't make the adult decision to get himself help (or just stop eating gluten). Post trying out for NFL my husband had a career in corporate banking, started an entire profitable business for a co, and then started the same business for himself. This is not a case of brain damage due to 'head injury' (though I know that its big in the news at the moment and I am a HUGE NFL fan and am familiar with a lot of those cases). NoSocks, I am so sorry to hear what you are going through. Good luck! Sweet Charlotte, I haven't seen any aggressive behavior at me in a long time. He threatened to 'cave my head in' at the beginning of this journey. The DV center rep said that she agrees with my gut, I can't continue to expose my son to the instability. Even a couple of weeks of this has been affecting him. She also agreed that while I have drastic tools at my disposal that I didn't need to use them unless necessary. Its been quite quiet here this morning. My husband got up and told me that he was taking our son to breakfast. I said ok and then he said... .no you keep him and left. I'm sure he'll be back and I am going to carry on with our day here! Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 03, 2013, 08:27:18 AM Alli, I'll just up and say it: I don't think you should be alone with your husband at this time.
It's very seductive to believe that you have some ability to affect this situation, some power to control outcomes. (The "no gluten" solution may be an aspect of that thinking.) But he's under great stress, and if he blows, you're the target. Not a boss, not another male, not a co-worker. There's just you, and your son, and your dogs. Surnia mentioned the local DV professionals. How about full disclosure of the past and present dangerous behaviors to them. And following their advice to the letter even if it goes against your current thinking. Safety for your family is paramount. It's everything else that can "wait." Not that. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 03, 2013, 11:05:31 AM For today, my husband is very calm and peaceful. He has clearly stated that he is choosing his own mental illness over our son and I and that he is looking for a place to live. The situation will probably change 100 times but I am ok what that.
If he moves out and finds peace on his own. If he moves out and destroys himself. If he moves out and finds someone else to feed his illness (ie another woman) If he moves out and hits bottom and gets help and it works and we get back together. If he moves out and hits bottom and gets help and it doesn't work and we get divorced. Or if he says he is going to move out and then we proceed to go back and forth like a yo-yo and he threatens to throw me out or gets crazy (this is the likely next step) :) I am literally at peace with every one of these options. I know what I need to do. He is looking for money to buy a house (I am ok with that as well) but it would come with the signing of a separation agreement so that I am protected. If things don't turn out the way that I want, I will go through my grief then. Today I need to take action (ha ha in this case just stick to action already taken). Surnia mentioned the local DV professionals. How about full disclosure of the past and present dangerous behaviors to them. And following their advice to the letter even if it goes against your current thinking. Surnia mentioned this because I stated that I had been talking to the DV professionals. I have used them as a resource throughout this process and have been as honest with them as I am on bpdfamily.com. I am following the path that they and I believe is correct. I'm not going to twist myself in circles about what ifs. If dangerous behaviors come up then I will deal with them when they do. I know my husband well enough not to back him into a corner. That's a big part of my safety plan. Right now, he does not feel backed into a corner he is an adult making an adult choice. I emphasized in the conversation this morning that I cannot allow my son to continue to be exposed to his erratic behavior. He said I've made my choice and "I make my bed hard. I will lay hard." ie suffer the consequences of him leaving (a life without him). I said that its not what I want, but I feel in my heart that the family will only heal if he gets professional help. He said that I am a VERY VERY sick woman. That I am cold and callous. That he begs me to talk to him and I refuse therefore I'll lose him. Again. I am ok with all of this for today. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: patientandclear on November 03, 2013, 11:35:00 AM |iiii
You could not be in a better place. Good for you. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 03, 2013, 12:03:48 PM |iiii
This has got to be a major relief: the sense that your husband feels he is in control of making a decision. (I know I'm relieved just hearing this. It's a way forward.) Whew. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: LetItBe on November 03, 2013, 12:31:13 PM I'm coming in late to this thread. Good for you for putting the best interest of your son first. I love that you recognize that exposure at the youngest ages can have a lasting if not lifelong affect on children. You do sound like you're in a space of clarity and wisdom. Good for you. |iiii I know most "programming" happens before the age of 2, so I'm glad you're being proactive. Your healthy boundaries will protect you and your son. I grew up watching DV between my parents, and it's something that I'm healing from now. One of my "stuck points" (PTSD) from what I witnessed is a belief system that, "Love is a struggle." I have a vivid memory of something terrifying I watched happen between my parents when I was 7 years old. I believe it's one of the things that has influenced my unhealthy partner selection. I've chosen situations that reinforce reinforce that yes, love is a struggle. I also remember how my mom would try so hard not to cry in front of us. I learned how to suppress my sadness and wouldn't allow myself to cry in front of other people until I was 33. How I wished as a child that someone would step in and protect me and my sister. That didn't happen until I was 13 years old when Child Protection Services was tipped by my sister's boyfriend. I imagine how different things would have been if even one of my parents would have been healthy enough to protect us. Your son is fortunate to have a loving, strong, wise mother like you! Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Grey Kitty on November 03, 2013, 02:37:17 PM For today, my husband is very calm and peaceful. He has clearly stated that he is choosing his own mental illness over our son and I and that he is looking for a place to live. The situation will probably change 100 times but I am ok what that. |iiii You sound so strong and centered right now. I'd offer you suggestions, but I really don't think I have anything to offer that you haven't already got. All I went through with my wife, it was just her and I; no children, no dogs, nobody else I was responsible for. Others here have more perspective on those sort of obligations. It sounds like you have this right as well. I'm remembering where I was four years ago after a long meditation retreat. I knew two things, in a very calm, certain way:
We did have a period that was something of an informal therapeutic separation almost two years ago. She had a final breakthrough about a year ago. There is always hope. I'm wishing you peace and strength. I'm also wishing your H the courage to get the help he needs, whatever path it takes for him. GK Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 03, 2013, 03:30:51 PM Grey Kitty - thanks as always for your support and thanks for starting me down this road.
One thing I can say is that my resolve is strong on this situation w my husband, my lover, my best fried. If it was just me (no son, so dogs) I could continue to fight this battle with him without professional intervention. But its not just me and I have to stop the cycle of dysfunction. I never thought that I would be strong enough... .But today I know that I am. Its been an interesting 5 yrs for me. First taking on my relationship w my BPD mom... .Now experiencing this w my husband. One thing for sure is that its time to focus on me. I have deep and terrible scars from watching my dad (the kindest man in the world) drink himself literally almost to death... .And doing little myself to intervene even though I was in my 20's. Its the one true regret of my life. If I had the tools then that I have now... .It might not have happened the way it did (then again he might have chosen alcohol instead of me). In a way this situation is playing out w my husband (just replace alcohol w mental illness) but this time I am making different choices. The DV center put me in touch w their outreach counselor to get as much in person support as I need (at no cost). I've also been in touch w a psychologist who does DBT w biofeedback and I'd like to start attending those sessions to deal w some of my other issues (like the pain of the loss of my dad - he's not dead - he just fried his poor brain on alcohol). Anyway good things will come of all of this. Time to focus on me rather than my husband. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: momtara on November 03, 2013, 03:56:25 PM I haven't read all the responses. I remember the first time you were on the bus. It is very hard to give up on a marriage. I am a month away from a divorce from my husband and still I feel his pull, and still I think of how nice it would be to just forget all this and have him come back, even on a limited basis. But I see the lies, the imagining things, the manipulation still happening. He IS getting help and other stuff, but it's not changing him.
Your husband sounds like someone who might do the DBT etc if you really did leave. On the other hand, it could just be a final step. You have no way of knowing. But I think using the dog for leverage is scary. Also, you say: "Believe me if I thought that he was serious, I would have called the police." My husband used to say he'd make a false claim to social services about our son when we were fighting. I never thought he'd really do it. Then we had a really bad weekend, and he did. I'm not saying your husband would act on these impulses, but you should be audiotaping them. If you ever have a custody battle, etc. (and don't doubt he might try it), these things will come in handy. It is hard to leave. I sympathize with you. Maybe what you need is to outline all the behavior that has to change, or you are getting a divorce. No half-attempts. He has to stop all the abuse or nothing. You can send it in a lawyer letter if you want. Or, if that will just scare him, you do what you think is best. Believe me, I know it's hard to leave. You can try to stay, but things can't remain as they are. He needs help. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 03, 2013, 03:59:38 PM Just to clariry, where are you staying at the moment?
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 03, 2013, 05:30:29 PM Ha ha I guess I have confused the heck out of everyone. I am at homes (upstairs).
He's at home (downstairs). Absolutely no violent behavior or abuse. I am just using the dv resources as I have stayed there in the past. And I am staying at home regardless of the outcome of this situation as I need to maintain stability for our son and the dogs. I'm happy to keep fighting the good fight if hubby can control himself in front of our son. Doubt that will be possible wihout professional intervention. Letting things stay calm for now. But preparing mentally if our r/s ends or a separation is req. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 03, 2013, 06:25:09 PM And oddly enough - the behavior leading up to 'get help or get out' is mild in comparison w past behavior... .even the threat of getting rid of the dog is less than before (where he would have threatened to hurt the dog).
I have truly come out of the fog and am focused on protecting our little boy as he's getting older and even words without actions can scar him now. The behaviors that HAVE to stop are: threatening to get rid of the dogs, and 'losing it' even without an abuse component in front of our son. He needs better stability than we are currently providing. He just came to ask if I wanted to have sex and I said 'sure if its w my husband who I adore and he plans to get help ' he almost sprinted out of the room saying 'have a good night' (his way of saying 'f u'. Did I say so, something wrong - lol. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 03, 2013, 09:32:03 PM The behaviors that HAVE to stop are: threatening to get rid of the dogs, and 'losing it' even without an abuse component in front of our son. He needs better stability than we are currently providing. So whats the plan if this happens again in a few days? Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 06:56:26 AM The behaviors that HAVE to stop are: threatening to get rid of the dogs, and 'losing it' even without an abuse component in front of our son. He needs better stability than we are currently providing. So whats the plan if this happens again in a few days? This 'get help or get out' is more of a long-term issue. In other words, I feel like I am doing an effective job (mostly) protecting our son at the moment but soon he will understand the meaning of words and getting out of the house to avoid abuse will be his 'norm' and I know that it cannot carry on like this. If he threatens the dogs or loses it around our son then I'll continue to same actions to escape abuse that I have been doing since the spring. Short-term they will continue to work. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 07:05:58 AM Update: this morning my husband came to me calmly and said that his is going to see a lawyer today and do I have any requests. I reiterated that I don't want a divorce, I want us as a couple to fix our dysfunction so that we can raise our son in a healthy house.
He said that he has been in therapy for 6 months (lie) and that therapy never works. He says that he is very physically sick (not mentally) and has special needs that I am either unwilling or unable to address. He says that he loves me and I am a good, kind person but that he can't continue to fight for our marriage when I am unwilling to assist with his needs. He said that living together is unhealthy for our little boy and that no judge in his right mind would award custody to him and he's confident that I will do a better job raising him alone than we would do raising him together. He said that he wants what is rightfully his (half of the house) but that if I want to stay then he wants me to buy him out. He said I had better come up with a proposal or he'll take me to court and we can waste our money on legal fees. I said that I still only want to get help as a family to address our issues but that UNDER DURESS I will give him a proposal. He says that he'll take one of the dogs with him (the one that is 11 that he had when we met) and I'm ok with that. I think that he's being so reasonable because he knows that I have enough evidence of verbal, emotional and physical abuse to sink him in court. He's not a stupid man. I now believe that he'll probably magically 'get back on his feet' and find employment etc. The NPD in him won't let him sink (a good thing). Yesterday he told me that he has only stuck around so long because of me supporting him and good sex. I don't believe that, but his cool and calm this morning made me question everything internally. He said that I assign all of his outbursts to mental illness (not true. I do try to listen to what is really upsetting him.) He basically said our marriage is failing because emotionally and physically I don't do enough for him. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 04, 2013, 07:45:38 AM I don't want to misquote waverider or take his posts out of context, but I remember this particularly striking one:
"[There is] a key turning point when . . . you are no longer the tag along trailer to his crazy driving style. It makes acceptance so much easier the less his decisions impact the rest of the family. You have your hands on your own steering wheel, you are retaining your own choice of what you do, greatly reduces resentment." The wisdom of this general concept makes me wonder if it isn't time for you to "change the dance" and give him your idea of what a divorce settlement would look like should he indeed consult a lawyer. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 08:48:14 AM I'm not at all sure of whether this current position of his is just a game or the true path that we will take. I don't think that anyone knows yet.
I am going to consult a lawyer to understand what a divorce settlement would look like today. He's busy dividing assets away. The only thing that I have told him is that if he truly wants a divorce (rather than seeking help) I need to stay in the house for our sons and for the dogs. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 04, 2013, 09:23:06 AM If Canadian family law is anything like the law in most U.S. states, then your consultation with an attorney should provide a lot of validation for you. (You may be able to get one or several free or low-cost consultations with lawyers just to get the general lay of the land, without engaging any of them yet.)
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 09:35:16 AM Thanks. I actually have a lawyer and I have used her to bounce ideas (to minimize fear of his threats in the past).
She's prepped and ready to go. Canadian law is very favorable towards a parent trying to take care of children (regardless of whether they are a woman or a man). The province that I am in has a zero tolerance policy on DV and abuse including verbal and emotional. Basically my husband would be 'toast' if I pulled in all the evidence that I have gathered against him. He has a pattern of questionable behavior and I don't have a history of any issues/ substance abuse etc while he has all of those things. I wouldn't completely go after him unless necessary though. At the end of the day, all I want is a happy non-dysfunctional family. The lengths that I will go to have that include turfing my best friend (my husband) out of the house if that is the only way to raise our son in a stable home. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 09:48:21 AM He just called me to confirm that I only went to the grocery store and the pharmacy yesterday afternoon. He says that I was gone from the house for 3 hrs and he wanted to confirm that he really isn't crazy that it takes me forever to do anything.
I left the house at 3:30 and returned by 5:15. Its a half an hour driving time (both ways). I slow played getting groceries and prescriptions and sat by the side of the road in the parked car crying (my emotions finally hit). I didn't bother explaining all of this to him. He's building a mental case against me and there is nothing I can do about it. He has in his head that I am really inefficient and that is why our lives together don't work. He gets in a huff if I tell him that I am leaving the office and then I don't get home for an hour and a half (the drive itself takes an hour) + any errands. I'm just so sick of being under a microscope all the time. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 04, 2013, 10:02:47 AM Gee, Alli, all this is so grim that I really wonder about the "head injury" idea mentioned by SweetCharlotte. Isn't it typical for the damage to declare itself, more and more, in middle age and beyond, when you're talking about former football players? (On the other hand, you do mention his family was aware of mental health issues he had as early as childhood.)
You have tried so hard to love him. :'( Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Waddams on November 04, 2013, 10:15:21 AM Excerpt I'm just so sick of being under a microscope all the time. He's the one who's now saying he wants to leave? Divorce? Part of that is making the realization that what your ex-/STBX/etc spouse is doing is none of your business anymore. You have a right to tell him you don't have to justify what you are doing, who you are with, where you are going, or how long it takes you. You are not his pet, slave, child, or in any way required to account for yourself to him. I'd recommend you set that boundary and tell him he really needs to back off, especially now that he's saying he wants to consult divorce lawyers. Sometimes the best response to this sort of crap is to just tell him "Yup, I took my sweet time and did a bunch of stuff and I'm not going to tell you what I was doing, where I was, or anything about it. I DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER OR BE ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU." and hang up on him. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 04, 2013, 10:34:01 AM Another forum member was given this excellent advice by her therapist: "Lean into the pain." Which I take to mean fully experience the grief. The grief, right now, is the reality.
Your thinking has been forcibly shaped by your husband over a long period of time and it makes sense that it will take some time, some mourning, and a big dose of self-acceptance before this thinking can change. Have you already been asked this a bazillion times here (sorry): Are you regularly seeing a therapist for yourself during this painful and confusing time? Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 10:43:10 AM Waddams,
I agree completely but part of why I am not making that step is that I really don't want to pursue a divorce. He's making the adult choices here and he'll have to suffer the consequences. I don't want to provoke him. I want to be calm and measured in how I respond (while protecting myself and our son unconditionally). He can pick the fight - I am going to be Mahatma Gandhi. If he files for divorce that would be the trigger for where I am is none of your damn business (though I'd be nicer about how I said it). KateCat, Seeing a therapist. Ready to deal with whatever pain comes my way. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: momtara on November 04, 2013, 11:23:56 AM He says that about seeing a lawyer today, but tomorrow he may be screaming to take you back. Once you get on the divorce road, it gets expensive, so don't wind up there if you're not ready. I know you want to save your marriage. For someone with BPD, I'm not sure counseling will really work. But if you can get him to individual and couples counseling, maybe both things will help him with anger management or something.
Really, threatening the dogs and stuff like that worries me. It's worse than verbal abuse. It has you constantly tiptoeing. I know you don't want to leave him. I don't want to leave my husband either, but there are limits. "He said that living together is unhealthy for our little boy and that no judge in his right mind would award custody to him and he's confident that I will do a better job raising him alone than we would do raising him together." Beware of this. My husband said things like that, but then when we were getting divorced, he filed for primary custody. It was just a legal ploy, but I still had to spend money fighting it. If you believe him, that's great, but don't let that stop you from keeping the evidence you have and maintaining a journal. I sympathize with you in not wanting to leave. Seems like you need to try everything you can to get him into counseling. Maybe you two can have a separation and not divorce - file orders for the property division and custody, and give it a year apart to make sure this is what you both want. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 11:38:01 AM Momtara thanks.
I think of you a lot because I know that you never wanted to go down the divorce road but you had to anyway. I won't file for divorce. I refuse. If he wants one - he can file. All I want is for him to choose to go to therapy (not just counselling) for his issues. I have DBT lined up and everything. He visited the psychologist and got a referral to a psychiatrist after our incident in July when he had a meltdown. I have stated that I would be willing to do r/s counselling only after he starts work on himself. He recognizes (at least in the good moments) that he is suffering from something emotionally nasty. He's even spoken to our family doctor about it. I do think that a separation is required at this point and visiting the lawyer would only be to draw up a separation agreement. I expect a lot of backs and forths now. I would welcome some time apart to just get clarity. I realize that he would change his mind regarding custody. I have enough evidence against my husband that I could likely get full custody of our son at the drop of a hat with no issues. This is a ZERO TOLERANCE JURISDICTION when it comes to abuse (whether physical, verbal, or emotional). The problem is that evidence would probably result in a PEACE BOND wherein my husband was not allowed to see his son (or me) for a significant period of time. I'd prefer to keep things under my control for the moment. The good news is that my side of the street is pretty clear (constantly removing our son from the house in cases of conflict or violence). Thanks for thinking of me. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Love Is Not Enough on November 04, 2013, 05:02:56 PM Thank you for sharing your story. I really hope that you can find peace in this situation. I am in awe of your rock solid demeanor that you have when facing raging episodes from your husband. You have mentioned that it used to effect you very badly with anxiety in the past. I have had the same issues and I have gotten stronger recently, but I am no where near your strength. Can you share how you got there or what thing helped you the most?
I think that you are on the right path with the separation and I hope that your husband uses the time for himself to work on his issues. I can see that you really want to save your marriage. I give you massive kudos for that. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: GreenMango on November 04, 2013, 05:35:47 PM Alli since you want to try at this marriage and your husband does this all or nothing catastrophe thinking when he goes off the rails (expected with BPD) have you thought about proposing the therapeutic separation?
He can say all kinds of things - like he's leaving, he's taking the dog- whatever. You're in a good place to not get caught up in his storm and just lay down your proposal. You have to follow thru with it obviously but the structure and resolve on your end will be a good thing at least for your son and you for stability while you work thru the emotional part of this journey which is really the hardest part. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 06:05:38 PM Alli since you want to try at this marriage and your husband does this all or nothing catastrophe thinking when he goes off the rails (expected with BPD) have you thought about proposing the therapeutic separation? Hi Green Mango! Yup I am actually planning on a therapeutic separation (whether my husband agrees to it or not). At this point it is critical to establish some space so that we can all think clearly. It may lead to divorce - or it may lead to my husband realizing that he needs help. I am at peace with either option as hard as they may be. I still need to discuss all this with the lawyer (the best way to make everything happen) but decided to focus on other things today (like my work). The big dog is safely at the doggie place. The doggie place is allowing him lots of time to be out and about with their family (the kennel is on a farm). They know that he is under stress at the moment. My focus is to get my husband out of the house as soon as practical so that I can get my big boy back here where I can provide him stability. Had a long talk with the dog person (very experienced) and got lots of good advice on how best to care for him (and alleviate some of the stress that my husband is creating in his doggie life). Thank you for sharing your story. I really hope that you can find peace in this situation. I am in awe of your rock solid demeanor that you have when facing raging episodes from your husband. You have mentioned that it used to effect you very badly with anxiety in the past. I have had the same issues and I have gotten stronger recently, but I am no where near your strength. Can you share how you got there or what thing helped you the most? I think that you are on the right path with the separation and I hope that your husband uses the time for himself to work on his issues. I can see that you really want to save your marriage. I give you massive kudos for that. Love Is Not Enough, thanks for your comments. I am glad that you are gaining something out of my story. Never in my life did I think that I have the strength that I feel today. Even if its only temporary to get me through this - I'll take it! Its also nice to hear the validation when my husband is spending 24/7 telling me why I am incompetent and the cause of his life failures. The thing that helped me the most was the LESSONS to the right of the staying board. First learning not to justify, argue, defend, explain (JADE) all the time. Then establishment of boundaries (starting w the most damaging behaviors), then learning validation. Clearly this hasn't been enough, but I have peace that I am doing all I can for my relationship. Firm and consistent boundaries were the biggest key step for me. And now for a FUNNY for everyone. Under all the stress that I am under I somehow managed to leave work an hour early. I just called my boss and shared this (left work at 3:45), picked up son an hour early, made dinner an hour early, put son to bed an hour early. I got mixed up with the time change! I changed all the clocks but forgot that I had done it! Told boss that I had a blonde moment. He knows what I am going through (generally) and said, "well under the circumstances - considering what you are going through - let's put that mistake in context -- not that bad" But he assured me that he'll get lots of mileage out of this and will be making lots of fun of me about this at a later date when its more appropriate. *) lol Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 06:34:35 PM I still need to discuss all this with the lawyer (the best way to make everything happen) but decided to focus on other things today (like my work). ... . Its also nice to hear the validation when my husband is spending 24/7 telling me why I am incompetent and the cause of his life failures. Two points of clarification - I understand that a therapeutic separation doesn't require a lawyer, but for my husband to leave the house... .he is going to need money and I am not willing to risk him taking the money... .disappearing into the sunset and me losing out because I failed to protect myself financially. Also, my husband is pretty much a running quiet (no yelling or smashing things) commentary of how I'm incompetent at the moment. I'm just ignoring/ walking away... .not sticking around for it. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: GreenMango on November 04, 2013, 06:44:03 PM I'm not real versed in the ins and outs of how to structure something like TS. It may be a good idea to get the ducks in a row tho. Maybe a thread on a legal or another thread about how to approach a TS could help.
Can you talk to both a therapist and a lawyer about the TS and then approach your husband about what you are proposing? His accusations and blaming are to be expected. He did this the last time too. It's pretty predictable. Try not to take it to heart he's a very insecure man right now clutching at straws. It's important to stay the course of what youve decided and to expect these kind of outbursts from someone who doesn't have the appropriate skills to resolve conflict. But not intermittently reinforcing his behavior will help. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 04, 2013, 06:58:00 PM Thanks for your wisdom GreenMango. I have a really cool lawyer who understands that she is my advocate in trying to SAVE my relationship! I will definitely consult the therapist on how to structure all this.
I was driving home today thinking how lucky I am to have found you all! You really are like a family to me. THANK YOU Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 04, 2013, 07:12:24 PM Whoah, even a cat like me is most impressed with your great efforts to promote the well-being of each and every member of your family:
The big dog is safely at the doggie place. The doggie place is allowing him lots of time to be out and about with their family (the kennel is on a farm). They know that he is under stress at the moment. My focus is to get my husband out of the house as soon as practical so that I can get my big boy back here where I can provide him stability. Had a long talk with the dog person (very experienced) and got lots of good advice on how best to care for him (and alleviate some of the stress that my husband is creating in his doggie life). |iiii Title: And the beat goes on Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 08:51:16 AM I'm glad that you feel like I am protecting my family ok.
So unsurprisingly, my husband is coming off the rails today. Our son was up a lot last night with a hacking cough. This morning I asked if he wanted to keep him at home or should I take him to daycare. He went into a tirade about how I should be ashamed of myself that I am a disgusting person and that he is going to report me to child services for neglect. I didn't respond. I just left the house and headed to the doc office. Got our son an appt for 3:30 and had them take his temperature (no temperature) and document. Later my husband called back and asked why I took him to daycare when he told me not to. I said that we had gone to the doctor and gotten the ok. He went mental about how fevers are the last stage and he's going to become very sick but that clearly I didn't give the doctor's office enough information about what was going on. He also told me that if I don't make a payment to him before the end of the week then he's going to take matters into his own hands in court and I have been warned. He then called back about 6 times and I didn't answer. He said he is selling our ATV and needs the paperwork from me. I spoke to the lawyer and made an appt for next Tues afternoon (in one week). She said I'm at no danger and if I give him any money just make sure that he signs something stating that it is an advance on a potential equalization payment. Still calm - just trying to point things towards a therapeutic separation but its pretty much out of my hands. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 05, 2013, 09:05:10 AM Alli,
I think you've mentioned that there have been times in the past when your husband has begun packing his bags to leave, "splitting stuff," and so on. Do you think he would ever actually engage an attorney or do you pretty much conclude that any legal action toward separation would need to be initiated by you? I guess I'm asking: is a move toward some type of therapeutic situation really out of your hands? (And maybe whether fear of his suicide is what's holding you back, as that would be my primary fear, I think.) Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: patientandclear on November 05, 2013, 09:25:42 AM Going from KateCat's important & serious questions to a light moment in your favor here:
It cracked me up that he told you he was "only" staying because you are so supportive & because of the great sex. ! Isn't that pretty much a massive "thumbs-up" report on your marriage? Most people who feel supported by their partner with whom they have great sex are feeling pretty good about the whole situation. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: KateCat on November 05, 2013, 10:00:07 AM It cracked me up that he told you he was "only" staying because you are so supportive & because of the great sex. :) Yeah, I'm pretty sure we all want to marry you! Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 10:31:20 AM Thanks for bit of levity this morning!
lol I think that the therapeutic separation is completely in my hands actually. There is no way that my husband would get off his butt and see a lawyer/ do a separation etc. Thanks for bringing me back to reality. I offhandedly mentioned to a co-worker that I know is going through a divorce that my husband and I would be separating to try to address some issues (no mention of the insanity I am actually going through) at which point he asked if I wanted to have lunch on Friday. I think that it was pretty innocent but immediately made him aware that I am trying to make my marriage work. This triggered a whole bunch of memories of being single and how damn complicated it is (like my current home life isn't complicated lol)... .anyway I actually had trouble sleeping last night because its the first time in 10 yrs that I have even considered that the time would come when my husband and I wouldn't grow old together. Sniffle. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 10:33:16 AM Going from KateCat's important & serious questions to a light moment in your favor here: It cracked me up that he told you he was "only" staying because you are so supportive & because of the great sex. ! Isn't that pretty much a massive "thumbs-up" report on your marriage? Most people who feel supported by their partner with whom they have great sex are feeling pretty good about the whole situation. LOL he said he was staying with me because I support him FINANCIALLY and we have good sex. He doesn't feel supported as a person around me but its not for lack of trying on my part. And to address KateCat's serious concern, I actually think my husband may go the opposite route of suicidal thoughts and get off his butt and get a job (gotta love that NPD). Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Love Is Not Enough on November 05, 2013, 10:52:14 AM Excerpt Love Is Not Enough, thanks for your comments. I am glad that you are gaining something out of my story. Never in my life did I think that I have the strength that I feel today. Even if its only temporary to get me through this - I'll take it! Its also nice to hear the validation when my husband is spending 24/7 telling me why I am incompetent and the cause of his life failures. The thing that helped me the most was the LESSONS to the right of the staying board. First learning not to justify, argue, defend, explain (JADE) all the time. Then establishment of boundaries (starting w the most damaging behaviors), then learning validation. Clearly this hasn't been enough, but I have peace that I am doing all I can for my relationship. Firm and consistent boundaries were the biggest key step for me. Thank you! I am trying to figure those things out now. Especially my boundaries. Please stay strong, you're a great role model! Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 11:01:15 AM oops
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 11:06:49 AM Love is not enough! Good luck but please stay safe. Your BPD will not like it when you start on this journey.
I am cutting out something that I posted on another post for your reference (saw that there may be a DV component to your relationship). This snippet was about a uBPD wife who would not let her husband leave the house when she was raging: ************ I don't think that it will surprise you that this is considered Domestic Violence (toward you) and it is illegal. I have mentioned in the past that it is a good idea to stop in at the police station and speak to someone calmly about your situation at home. Make sure that it is your local police. The police that will actually respond if you or she ever calls 911. Explain that you are dealing with something difficult at home and while you are committed to your marriage you need to understand local laws as well as your rights and responsibilities in the situation. Also let them know that you need advice here. She is not allowed to TRAP you. You have a right to be able to escape her when she is on a tirade. Exercising that right may be the only way to stop this horrible cycle for you sad Obviously you don't want to call the police on her if you don't have to... .that would be absolute absolute last resort. Believe me... .its not easy. The first time I walked away from a major rage of my husband I ended in a Domestic violence shelter for 3 days -- it wasn't fun. ******* And don't feel bad about talking to the police. You are doing it in a calm and quiet moment so that you know how to handle it when things get difficult. You are actually doing this to try to stay in the relationship! But if you don't intend to report an incident make sure not to mention any violence or threats of violence. Refer to it as 'behavior that made me nervous' or 'could tell that things were going the wrong way'... .depending on the local laws... .law enforcement HAS to press charges if they believe that there is a real DV situation going on. I have preferred to have this as a tool in my toolkit that I have control of. Of course if and when there is a real problem GO FOR IT. SAFETY FIRST. Please stay strong, you're a great role model! Shucks man. You are making me blush. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Love Is Not Enough on November 05, 2013, 11:25:23 AM Thank you for reposting that. I had seen that and I was planning on dropping by the police station later this week when I can get away from work. I am curios what out local laws are here. I hope things improve for you and I will see you back on the staying board soon |iiii
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 01:30:52 PM My husband just called me to ask for a "TRUCE"
I said 'of course I want a 'truce' but you need to get help. He said that his dad told him that if he wants to run the house, he needs to take the bull by the horns and if he bankrupts us doing it then so be it. I haven't spoken to his dad and don't plan to but I KNOW that he wouldn't say that. He said that he has been getting professional treatment for MONTHS. This is just a straight out lie. I got out of the conversation saying that we can talk about it when I get home. Its tough navigating these twisted waters! Suggested responses. I was thinking that I'll propose a 6 month therapeutic separation. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: eyvindr on November 05, 2013, 01:36:36 PM LOL!
It cracked me up that he told you he was "only" staying because you are so supportive & because of the great sex. :) Yeah, I'm pretty sure we all want to marry you! Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 01:45:48 PM My husband just called me to ask for a "TRUCE" I said 'of course I want a 'truce' but you need to get help. He said that his dad told him that if he wants to run the house, he needs to take the bull by the horns and if he bankrupts us doing it then so be it. I haven't spoken to his dad and don't plan to but I KNOW that he wouldn't say that. He said that he has been getting professional treatment for MONTHS. This is just a straight out lie. I got out of the conversation saying that we can talk about it when I get home. Its tough navigating these twisted waters! Suggested responses. I was thinking that I'll propose a 6 month therapeutic separation. Ok never mind he called and explained that basically he plans on doing things differently and now it will work. I pushed him only slightly on how that was going to happen and said 'never mind' making things work isn't worth it and hung up on me. Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: Sluggo on November 05, 2013, 02:04:50 PM ugh... .
Sorry to hear that Allibaba... .but hearing the fact that he asked you for a truce is showing that your boundaries are being seen. Must really be tough for you now... . Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: 123Phoebe on November 05, 2013, 02:13:37 PM alli, do you still plan to propose the therapeutic separation? Have you spoken with a therapist about doing this?
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: allibaba on November 05, 2013, 02:45:38 PM Pushing a little and seeing him cave immediately (ie no commitment to do anything) was better than caving... .I think a theuraptic separation is the only way forward for us at this point... .
Title: Re: At the limit of what I will accept Post by: waverider on November 05, 2013, 03:04:26 PM *mod*
This topic has now been locked as it has now reached 4 pages. Please feel free to continue any further related issues in a new thread thanks for your participation waverider |