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I'm still struggling with the difference between these two. It seems like they may have similar symptoms, but are they very different (BPD has more self destructive symptoms, but from a relationship perspective do both of them lack empathy? - my BPD sucked me in with his empathy actually). It seems a lot of people seem to use both to describe their SO, or ex.   And how do the dynamics work? BPD with codependents and narcissists? Are codependents attracted to pwNPD?

Yes, it can happen. I was in this.

Co-dependents and Ns are sharing one important thing: Very low self-esteem. Ns seem however so strong and with high self-esteem. This was attractive for me.

How would you describe his empathy?

This isn't answering your question exactly, but I really like the book Why Does He Do That? Inside the Lives of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. He worked with abusive men for 20 years and focuses on the behavior. I remember he described one type of abuser in a way that described an old bf I had -- he seemed to be very empathetic, but he was ultimately super controlling, undermined my confidence, lied to me, etc.

Made me realize that he wasn't empathetic. He was manipulative.

You are correct. He was definitely manipulative... .  But he did show me some form of empathy, he comforted me before I even realized I needed it actually.  That someone can be so in tune with someone else's emotional needs was totally mind blowing for me.  In a way, he gave me something I have never received, or allowed myself to receive.  Of course that was in the beginning.   He was also starting to show some major signs of being very controlling, was a liar (self admitted), and did undermine my confidence.  But his empathy, and ability to understand that there was pain inside me, without it ever being spoken of, was what hooked me in.   He saw the wounded me and comforted her, albeit very briefly.

When you say it made you realize, do you mean that when they show empathy in the beginning, it is only to eventually manipulate us, and that in fact, they don't feel any empathy whatsoever? If that's the case, I guess I'm glad I ran just as the curtain was opening on act 3 (act 1: idealization, act 2: clingy and needy, act 3: I hate you).  But I still don't know what he is, or is not capable of. That's the hard part. Hearing about other people's similar stories here is helpful for me to understand exactly what I missed, and how I should be happy about it.

I did date someone who I think had NPD traits, and he was very cold - never, ever, EVER expressed empathy, kindness, or understanding of someone else's pain. He sucked me in by giving me lots of attention - drawings, poems, love letters, dramatic declarations of love in the streets of the most romantic city in the world! Blah!

Now I'm trying to situate myself here, sitting somewhere in between the borderline and narcissist.

For me, trying to understand the diagnosis became a bit of a rabbit hole. But I was hooked on trying to make sense of what does not make sense. I got a whiff of this other trail toward emotional healthiness, so I kinda followed that direction. Eventually, a psychiatrist diagnosed N/BPDx as NPD, but my T seemed to think he showed signs of Paranoid Personality Disorder and BPD. And alcoholic. And bipolar II. After a while, I guess what I realized is if I diagnosed my ex, then I would understand me.

Do you think the empathy he expressed was more like mirroring?

Mirroring? hmmm... .I'm not sure, because in a way, while I was showing understanding (and I now realize how on the first date he totally vetted me for my tolerance of "crazy", he was the first to show empathy - I was standoff-ish, perhaps because I felt his neediness and didn't trust it. But perhaps he read that standoff-ishness as someone who was hurt and simply hugged and comforted me. That caused me to reciprocate by being more kind and caring than I have been with anyone. It's like maybe he saw a bit of his hurt inside of me, comforted me, and then I reciprocated.  Very quickly, he became a major source of anxiety, not comfort... .

What would change for you if you knew he was NPD or BPD?

Well he told me he had BPD on the third date. So I knew!  I guess I am just trying to understand that better, and my dynamic with him since I really got hooked in by the BPD. Less so by the narcissist, but i still stayed with him for 4 years. I also think my replacement with the BPD has some n traits... . 

When he told you he was BPD, did that mean anything to you at the time?

For me, the distinction between BPD and NPD doesn't really matter, because at the end of the day, it was the codependent traits in me that created the hook. Like you, the  red-flag stuff was on full display, and I looked right past it.

Did your ex move very quickly to show that level of empathy with you?

I had no idea what BPD was... and when I read about it, I started to understand that I had been in unhealthy abusive relationships my whole life - a very difficult realization that he was totally unable to help me with (go figure). I also realized that I could not continue being with him, as I started to understand my past.

 

But it's true... .the distinction BPD/NPD is not that different.  I just didn't know co-dependents and narcissists match up :) I guess we are also constantly changing, and adapt to every relationship in different ways. He showed me empathy before he actually really knew me... .not that I think he ever really knew me.   After that it was mostly about him.  He gave me advice for dealing with difficult family problems, but made some very painful comments... .which really, only revealed certain things about myself to me.  The whole experience with him was actually incredibly revealing about myself.   Sometimes it was more information than I could handle though.

apparently that's a big fat YES!  according to this excerpt from wiki re co-dependency that i just read today... . 

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency

Narcissists, with their ability to "get others to buy into their vision and help them make it a reality," are natural magnets for the "'co-dependent' ... .[with] the tendency to put others' need before their own".[9] Sam Vaknin considered that codependents, as "the Watsons of this world, 'provide the narcissist with an obsequious, unthreatening audience ... .the perfect backdrop.'"[10] Among the reciprocally locking interactions of the pair, are the way "the narcissist has an overpowering need to feel important and special, and the co-dependent has a strong need to help others feel that way... .The narcissist overdoes self-caring and demands it from others, while the co-dependent underdoes or may even do almost no self-caring."[11]In psychoanalytic terms, the narcissist "who manifests such 'omnipotent' behaviour and who seems to be especially 'independent' exerts an especially fascinating effect on all ... .dependent persons ... .[who] struggle to participate in the 'omnipotent' narcissist's power":[12] narcissist and codependent "participate together in a form of an ego-defense system called projective identification."[13]

As much as I am on this Borderline forum and incredibly grateful for it, I am fairly certain my dynamic was the typical NPD / CoDa one described in this thread.

pwNPD are generally much more cruel and can function in normal society more easily. They do not suffer the same bouts of dysregulation as severely or for as long. And they are quicker to deploy more passive aggressive tools like silence.

When in therapy after my break-up, the two schemas that kept popping up for me were 'self-sacrifice' and 'other directedness'. These feature prominently in codependent people. For all of my adult life, I was so fixated on helping and rescuing, that I can look back at all of my exes and see a large degree of BPD / NPD in all of them.

This last relationship was the only one to completely decimate me. To ruin me. But if I think about it, this reality check was a long time coming. The cruelty I experienced at the end is almost certainly the thing that kept me stuck. I was completely obsessed with 'understanding' my NPDx and how he could be so cold so quickly.

And then as I looked at the relationship with a bit of distance, I could see how much I made the r/ship all about him. He did seem remarkably independent or omnipotent, but in reality he just had a distant relationship with his family and his past. I mistook that for independence, but in reality he had simply damaged those relationships to the point of never being able to engage with them again. Much like he has done with ours.

But at the same time he seemed to need me so much - and my over-functioning codependent M.O. found a perfect home. How could he ever leave me when he needed so much? Easily - by turning that neediness to someone else. It was as simple as that. When they had mined me of everything I had to give, I had to be punished for coming to need them.

I see a big difference between NPD / BPD but very little different about the bond between and CoDa / NPD and CoDa / BPD. Codependent people draw so much of their identity from what someone else does or says that they have never really defined their own wants and needs at all. So when the BPD / NPD withdraws, the CoDa panics because there is nothing to fall back on. No core self (false or real). I have had to build my own core self in the wake of this break-up and I am so grateful for that.

As I examine my xNPD's behaviour toward the end, I can see that he tried to fight against his own nature, but couldn't. It was almost like he didn't want to be so nasty and cruel, but couldn't help himself. His language was very precise ("you are very important to me" yet his actions were completely contrary. I suspect they need to push us away to control their inevitable sense of abandonment and because of engulfment and fear of intimacy. I also believe that they can't do two things at once: maintain friendships once they find a new target to idealise. My ex's Facebook page was full of pleas from friends to communicate more. A pwNPD needs to win at all costs. A decimated CoDa left on the side of the road is nothing but collateral damage. This is common to pwBPD and NPD.

BB12