BPDFamily.com

I have posted here often, although I have started posting mostly on the divorce board.  Still, there are times I wonder if I am doing the right thing.

The short story is, hubby would get triggered about once a month for several days at a time and be emotionally abusive.  I would have to do the same chores a few times over and over to get him to stop.  It started affecting our very young children because he would get angry and not let me take them outside, or let me give them certain food, or other stuff.  He would say I'm a bad mom, etc.  But if I just kept quiet and went along with what he said, eventually he got back to normal, loving, gentle, sweet.  When triggered, he'd lie about stuff, even little things, and remember things incorrectly.  Even when things were fine, I'd tiptoe.  But when things were good, I was pretty happy.

Anyway, it came to a head one weekend last year when I stood up to him during a triggered period.  I proved some of his lies (showed him contradictory emails he'd sent me), refused to go along with everything he demanded, finally stopped walking on eggshells.  I guess I figured that it would happen sooner or later and I had to stand up to him and see if there were consequences.  I had to know if he would get worse.

Well, he did things he had only threatened to before, including lying and telling social services I had abused the kids.  It wasn't true, but I sure felt helpless.  He also yelled at me for an entire night in front of the kids, etc.  (They are very young).

I got a restraining order and got him out of the house because of that incident of emotional abuse.  Then, he finally started getting counseling.  He wanted a second chance.  He acknowledged some of the behaviors, but not the worst ones.   So I filed for divorce.  So THEN he started admitting to everything he had done wrong.  Admitted it to his shrink, too.  He really felt bad and was starting to make changes.  At first he may have been 'recycling,' but I think he sincerely wanted to come home and he really does love me and the kids.  Change takes years.  But I know the gentle side of him and I know he really wants to change.  (I also see the side of him that has done things that were purposely cruel to both me and the kids... .)

We were spending time together here and there and it was nice.  Breaking up a family is very hard for me.  I do not get into relationships easily and I guess I felt like it was heaven to be married.  Hubby and I do have things in common. And unlike some people here, he isn't into drugs, cheating, etc.

But not knowing what he could do - that's a big issue.  For example, I might some day go out with friends and have a glass of wine.  In his mind, that could turn into claiming to some child welfare agency that I am a drunk.  The possibility of him lying to social services again is pretty scary to me, and just dealing with him when he gets triggered is hard too.  He can do and say things that are pretty mean.  So letting him back into my life is very risky.  I will feel like I always have to watch what I say and do.  And carry a tape recorder.

If I could, I'd allow some kind of limited situation where we are together maybe a day or two every two weeks.  Problem is, the illness.  He'll want to go to more time and he will just feel resentful when he has to leave.  

If we got back togethrer we'd have constant therapy and stuff like that.  A tough way to live, but better maybe than giving up.  When he did something cruel, at least we could discuss it in front of a therapist.  We'd have a lot of people trying to help us make it work.  I have talked to his shrink and the guy isn't letting him off the hook, he is pushing my husband to acknowledge his mistakes.

He still has periods when he's triggered and does mean things.  And I am so glad he is not in the house when that happens.  He says it happens because of stress from the divorce and rarely seeing the kids.  And I am coming to understand that - how can he get better while he faces losing almost everything?  Even if I seem like I'm giving him too much sympathy, if I only saw my kids once in a while, that would feel awful.  So I do see that by filing for divorce, it put us both into a situation in which we don't really have a stress-free chance to find out if it could work.  That said, I feel like even in the most stressful circumstances, he should be able to control his cruelty somewhat.  The verbal abuse has largely stopped, but the controlling behaviors are what comes back.  He contradicts me on decisions regarding the kids just to contradict me, for instance.

The solution might be to postpone the rest of the divorce.  However, I have found that giving him false hope just makes things worse, because if I come up with a plan for him to slowly come back into our lives, and he messes up, it will be a lot harder to extricate myself from the situation.  

I guess I post this to help myself work this out in my mind, or to get any perspective I might not have thought of yet.  :)eep down I think it is better to leave.  And yet, I am giving up a lot.   I also do love the good side of him, and know that he wants to get rid of that other side -- even if he can't.  Or maybe I'm just making excuses for someone who can be pretty cruel.  It's so easy to get hopeful when he's in a nice phase, and I feel so awful when he's in the other phase.

I think it's possible that if he comes back and I go back to walking on eggshells, I can keep things from ever getting to a boiling point for a while or maybe even forever.  The thing is, is that really a way for us both to live?  I am not a shrink and I can't always guarantee our lives will be stress free.  Even without divorce, there could be another stressor that drives him to the brink.

I will always wonder if I could have or should have taken a chance.  Hubby was pressuring me months ago to get back to the way things were, but now he accepts that it could take years.  If I gave him a 2-year separation, he'd probably agree to it.  But what if I'm not ready in 2 years?  It may be best for both of us if we go our separate ways.

I guess it's the real scary stuff that worries me.  Even if I slowly let him back in, deep down, he has deep seeded problems and I just worry that next time he has a big episode, even if it takes 2 years, it will be much harder to leave.  Or should I just take that chance?

momtara,

Wow I didn't know your backstory.  I am very sorry to hear all that. Like so many of these stories, there are so many parallels.  Verbal abuse that comes and goes, kids in the mix, wanting to stay married but feeling would it just be easier or healthier not to be married, being accused of being a drunk when I had 1 beer at a social event, and having all of that go back and forth in my mind at once. 

I don't know what to say except I feel like I am right there with you in all the muck.  Things have gotten better over the last 10 days after 10 weeks of extreme dysregulation and threats of divorce and me even having a divorce plan with my attorney and my family. 

Keep you chin up and wish I had something better to say except I feel for you. 

Thanks.  Good to know I'm not alone!  I always look for people in similar situations, because there really is no way to tell what might happen, and it helps to see what happened in similar cases.

By the way, somehow the word h.o.overing got changed up there to recycling.  I think the system automatically does that.  My husband doesn't really recycle... .he's pretty monogamous.  But he was telling me what I wanted to hear.  I think it was sincere in this case.

Gosh, I wish someone would come down from the heavens and say, "Get back together and I will protect all of you."  Being a family again would be very nice, if I didn't have to be afraid.

momtara,

I remember your posts from earlier on and mentioning if you were not sure you wanted a divorce, then maybe it would be better to just separate for a while.  It sounds like you have done this, to some degree, but have still moved forward with your divorce process.

Here is my opinion - if you were expecting him to make changes that would give you  100% guarantee in this amount of time that is really unrealistic.  Healing takes time.  He needs time to learn, grow and create new patterns.  Also, during that process it is EXPECTED to have some of the old behaviors pop up - and then deal with them.  That is how they learn, become aware and grow.

The bottom line is - your wanting to have an answer that provides no fear or pain and just fixes everything is the same thing we ALL want - but it is not possible.

You either divorce and go through the fall out of all that.

Or you stay and work through things with him without getting it exactly the way you want/need immediately - and not knowing what the final outcome will be.

What you really want is impossible.

I am like you as well - take marriage VERY seriously as well as the fact that you have children.

If my exh had made the attempts that yours is - I would have given it a chance.  I can't speak for you. 

You have other options you can consider.

You say it would be harder to remove him from your life if you postpone your divorce.  I really don’t see why that is.  Why is that?  Perhaps if you allowed him to move back in in the near future or something, yes. 

If you are unsure you could postpone the divorce and keep things the way they are and see how the progress goes.  You can always get divorced.  It’s not now or never.  Don’t lock yourself into that.  Allow yourself whatever it takes to have peace about your decision.  I was on the brink for a long time too, and it was the anxiousness of just not knowing that was driving me nuts.  BUT – don’t let that consume you and be what drives you to make a decision.

Try to work on getting to a place where you are ok with those feelings. 

If you are not in danger, and he is making attempts to try to work things out, and you have clear boundaries that gives you the distance you need, and you still have something in your heart for him and would really like to see it work, then… ?

If you are unsure of a major decision – the best route is to do nothing until you are.  (Unless you are in a situation like abuse or danger, etc.)

Will he change for good?  Maybe not.  But here is the deal – it shouldn’t take TOO long to see if he is making progress (not CHANGED – but making PROGRESS and sticking with treatment.)  What is another 3 months, 6 months, or even a year?  Really?  In the grand scheme of things with your family on the line? 

It’s ok being in limbo and trying to find peace in that place knowing that one way or another it will work itself out.  It’s okay to not know for a while.  It’s okay to not have THE answer right now.  It’s okay to stop putting pressure on yourself to make a decision you don’t have full peace about.  Don’t be your own enemy and drive yourself and your future life decisions with anxiety and fear.

In most situations with the people on these boards, this is not what I would say.  But given your circumstances – it is.  And it is what I would have done myself if in your shoes.

I wish you the best Tara.  I wish your husband the best and your sweet little ones the best.  It may not work out for you all.  In my heart of hearts I hope it does.

I had to finalize the divorce with my exh in August.  There were no other options as it was extremely dangerous and unhealthy at that point to go forward - but I exhausted all the options and that gave me some peace.

Thanks.  I appreciate this.  The more perspective I get, the better.

The only thing I'd say is that postponing means that if it doesn't work out, I just have to go through the detatching process again in six months, and that's all kind of scary.  Whenever he has episodes, I think - I have to get away from this person; what was I thinking?  And then I calm down.

Your perspective helps a lot.  I'm sorry your situation didn't work out, but it sure sounds like you tried!

Lady's response has made me think about things a little more.

I guess it isn't fair to assume hubby would get so much better when he is going thru the stress of a divorce.  He's got BPD; it's triggered by abandonment.  He tries hard and then faces losing me, so of course he slips into old behaviors and reactions.

However I see triggers other than abandonment.  Besides the verbal abuse, he is just so NEGATIVE, wants to change my kids' health care providers, doesn't even want them to go to routine medical appointemnts.  That said, this is also a way for him to exhibit control.  Perhaps if we were not getting divorced, those situations would quell, in time.  If he faces losing me, we could work on these behaviors in therapy.  That's something we have not gotten the chance to do after he started facing his problems.  He is in therapy himself, but we are not both in therapy.

Here is the problem with stopping the divorce, though.  He lies.  Pathologically.  At various times, he has claimed I withheld the kids from him.  I was scared he'd say that to a judge and get a lot of time with them.  So I have to protect the kids and make sure we have a custody order.  Also, he is threatening to quit his job.  If I wait a year to leave him, our financial situations may chance and I may be responsible for takign care of him.  I can't be an old softie and get screwed.

One thing I *can* do is convert the divorce to a legal separation.  I just have the fear I expressed above, that if things don't work out, I'd have to detach a second time.  Doing it over the last few months has driven him bonkers.  It's finally calming down.  Don't know if I can go thru it again.

I don't think there's really a way to see if he will change drastically.  A three-year separation might do it.  I just worry about keeping him waiting that long.  It was hard when he was asking me every two weeks, "Are we getting back together?"

I do love him, and I'm probably also co dependent.  I'm a realist too.  So... .I dunno! 

I've not been following the legal board, so I missed much of your story... .however from this post, here is what comes to my mind:

Thought: One year, Two years, Three years? Yes, healing and therapy take time. However that doesn't mean that they operate on a schedule. They also take consistent effort, and he may or may not be up for that. Allowing time is a good thing. Waiting and putting up with things in the mean time doesn't seem as much.

Question: Why do you want to stay with your H / move back in with your H?

You clearly articulate reasons to not want a divorce, but that isn't the same thing.

Reasons to stay would be:  He does have a sweet side, we have two very young kids who love him, he and I have some things in common, giving up a marriage and being alone is a hard thing.

He also has stayed in therapy this whole time, which I am surprised about.  I didn't expect it.

Reasons to leave:  He can be really awful.  He lies.  I would always have to watch myself if we were together.  But that's *living* together.  If we can take several years to see what happens, and we still live apart, that might work.

I don't want to ever fall back into the old pattern of tiptoeing around him.  He will always need therapy.  I just don't want to completely give up on something when he actually is getting therapy and we may be able to work on our problems in therapy.

Seems like legally, for reasons I said just above, I may have to establish a financial disconnect from him.  But I don't know if I should totally give up on the marriage.

The fact that he told social services I abused our kid is pretty damning, but with therapists constantly monitoring us, hopefully they'd speak up if he ever went into old patterns.

You say he has stayed in therapy with dedication you weren't expecting of him. Have you considered Therapeutic Separation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0)

My idea for you is that there is an assumed happily-ever-after marriage/relationship model that we all grow up thinking of as normal. It involves getting married, living together every day, merging finances, having kids, etc.

I don't think it is the only choice, and I don't think it is always the best choice for everyone either. I know of couples that have completely separate finances. I know of couples that spend years or even decades living thousands of miles apart. I know of couples that choose to each have their own home.

What I think I'm hearing from you is that it doesn't feel safe to have him move back in with you any time soon, and that having separate finances also seems safe/prudent to you.

If you could paint a picture of your ideal relationship with him, as he is right now, including those two things... .what would it look like?

Thanks for following this and giving me insight.

Yes, you are correct - I don't feel safe living with him, or sharing finances with him.

I have looked at therapeutic separation, but it involves an end point.  The fact of the matter is, there are times I'm not sure he's a good person.  And there are times he seems great.  Which is a lot of what BPD is... .I don't know if we will ever get back together.  I don't think it will seem fair to him to keep him wondering for 3, 4, 5 years if he'll ever come back in the house.  I think it will only show him more of what he's missing.

And I think he will become more resentful if I do that, and that hurts the kids.

Here is one of my fears.  He at some point will want more.  Five years down the road, he wants to move back in.  He's fed up with seeing the kids only once in a while, and they don't like me keeping daddy out of the house.  I get pushed into giving him more time, and it's a disaster. 

To be honest, I don't think it's safe for the kids if I give him false hope and then can't give him any more than I've offered.  Let's say you're a parent with an emotional dysregulation disorder and your wife lets you come over once in a while to hang out with the kids.  At some point you are going to want more, and throw a fit if you don't get it.

I think the way things are now, he knows I'm getting divorced and we both may move on.  His emotions are very fragile, and if I give him false hope he may just fall harder again the next time.

I agree that there are married couples that live apart their whole lives, have separate finances, etc.  You make an excellent point.  I guess that brings up another issue, which is, do I love him enough or have enough faith in him to continue in that manner, or do I want to someday experience a more normal relationship with someone who values me, someone I don't have to be afraid of, someone I don't have to watch everything I say around.  And what is normal?  I dunno.  I think it makes sense to try to make it work with the father of your children.  I do still feel love for him, despite all he's done (maybe that's to my fault).  I am not sure it's a good idea to set up a structure that may give him false hope.  I don't think it's fair to tell him he can't come into the house for 3-5-7 years.

Not sure I'm making myself totally clear, but it's a confusing situation. 

Hi Momtara,


I understand the fear and the desperate need to have some kind of stability to base your family on - even if that stability is found by becoming a single parent.

I've decided to stay with my husband for now (we can never say what will be 10 years from now - with BPD in your life you can't even say how it will be 10 minutes from now!). I feel that in order to do this I have had to really  let go of the notion of 2 parents, living together, working supportively as a unit. It isn't going to be that way for me. However I do love my husband and want a life with him.

I don't think it is helpful to think of this possibility as a 'therapeutic separation' because as you say these have an end. I think it's more helpful to think of it as a choice to live a different way because it enables you to remain together as a couple.

Your husband would have to be aware of this and buy into it at the very beginning. It's like:  "I love you husband but due to your illness and aspects of your attitude and behaviour it is impossible for us to live together. I would like us to remain in a relationship/marriage but these are the parameters xxxxxxxx (eg we live in separate homes, we have separate finances, we do things together as a couple x times a week and together as a family x times a week. If you do x then y happens. If I do x then y happens)."

To my way of thinking it takes a great deal of love and committment to live an unconventional marriage but it is possible. It takes both parties to be committed to it and to want to make it work long term.

I think for an unconventional arrangment to work both parties have to understand and accept why it is the way it is. Focus on arranging the relationship in a way that allows it to work... .trying not to focus on the 'what happens 5 years down the line' question. Avoid having any kind of loose agreement that says 'in 5 years I'll consider you moving back in' - that's putting pressure on you and setting him up to  possibly fail and be frustrated.

Living separately would be your way of life not a means to an end (ie him getting better and moving back in). 

I suppose the questions are would you want to live that way (because it might be for a very long time), and would you and your husband be committed to it as a long term lifestyle choice which enables your marriage to remain intact? 

I am interested in this because my husband and I seriously explored living separately during the early part of this year when things were very bad. We didn't go down that route eventually but I can see that it can work.

best wishes,

PT

It has worked for some people.  I don't think it's a bad idea.  I just think that we are, of course, dealing with a mental illness, and even if he understood it at the outset, he might still get resentful.  

I actually think he'd agree to it and it would work for a year or two.  It's sometimes tempting.

If I want to leave, this is my chance to get out.  He blames himself and understands why we are apart.  If we work on things and then I still have to leave because there is still some bad stuff, he may be more resentful because he tried.

I appreciate your thougthts and hope it DOES work for you.  I actually did accept that I'd have to do all the work, etc.  - what I didn't anticipate was that he'd just flat-out make life difficult for me.  I don't like having to tape every conversation in case he someday lies to a judge.

I want to stay married to the good part of him, or the part that is trying.  I am too scared of the other part and where it could lead if he gets more resentful.  

All of that said, I am still trying to figure out if it could work.  So all thoughts are helpful.  I also see what's out there and I don't want to end up lonely and regretful in my old age. 

momtara,

You say he's still in therapy, which is better than you expected.

Reading between the lines, you seem to be saying that therapy won't work for him.

What is your basis for this belief? I know that BPD can be cured by therapy.

can, or can't?

well, i see the old ways happening even now - the lies, etc.  that said, maybe if he was happier the therapy would be more effective.

i just think it will take years to work.  he's had these problems all his life.  and the therapist isn't necessarily treating BPD, just  ocd.

I do expect any cure of BPD to take over a year, likely several years. My wife didn't follow a specific prescribed course of treatment, and much of the time I had no idea what BPD was. However we both saw her having two major milestone change points. The starting event was just over four years ago, and the finishing event was almost a year and a half ago; almost three years, with lots in the middle too.

I think I saw about as big a improvement from my use of boundaries (in the middle) as I did from her final cure/transition.

If his T is targeted at OCD instead of BPD, I can see why you wouldn't have that much hope.

---

As for a separation, therapeutic or otherwise, and end-points or end-dates... .

You don't have to make choices as if they are forever; you can do something different later. You also don't have to sign on for the whole treatment schedule today.

You could say you want to live separately for (my arbitrary guess) two years.

That means that you stay apart for two years, and then evaluate what you will do two years later. Probably at a year and nine months you will be thinking about what sort of changes seem safe/right once the two years come up.

The other commitment during those two years could be to avoid dating/starting a new r/s (either of you), and to continue trying to work on your respective issues with therapy, individual and joint.

At that time you may choose to split completely (aside from shared parenting), or move back together, or to give the separation another year.

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea; I'm trying to say that there are a wide variety of options for you to think about here.

I do appreciate that!  I am always looking for new perspective.  Thanks for ALL your suggestions.  They really do help!  I guess I do tend to overthink.

I'm going to pay devil's advocate.  I'll keep it brief.  Won't there always be something to set him off?  Even if you remove the threat of leaving or divorce, there is always something.

I am applying this to my situation too.  Something always sets them off and makes you feel off kilter.  You can love him as deeply as you can but it doesn't change the fact that this illness doesn't have a very high rate of being cured.

Sorry if that is negative but you have overlooked a lot.  having younger children involved makes it that much more urgent and important.

Good luck 

Well, that's my fear too.  Hearing that from you makes me feel less guilty.

I guess it's just the idea that he was being soo sweet and got counseling, acknowledging all the wrongs, and we'd have counselors helping us always.

The downside is, yes, the counselors can't be in the house with us.  There will be other anxieties that will make him blow up from time to time.  I have no way of knowing which behaviors will come back and which will not, which will be helped by therapy and which will not.

Maybe my problem is that we just got divorced too quickly.  I wasn't ready to accept it yet.  It also caused a problem in that I didn't ask for him to have a psych eval, and now I wish I had.  It's not entirely too late, but harder now.  (Yes, I know it's contradictory to love him and also think he should be checked out because he sees the children, but I am facing many contradictory decisions... .and I get scared when he has them, even tho he's w/relatives.)

In bold:  Husband or not, why would you want anyone like that around your kids?  I'm sorry and not sure if it's allowed on these boards but from reading all of your posts, I think you made the right decision.  There is no quick divorce.  They last for years.  Separation tends to delay the inevitable.  He was trying in therapy because if there is hope of getting back what he is losing, he will do it.  He knows how to behave to get you back.  He knows you better than you do.  That is what is so hard about a BPD, they enmesh themselves in your heart and soul. 

If you remove your emotions and look at your story like it was your best friend going through it, would you tell her to stay?  This is a question my therapist asks me.  When your 3 year old is more emotionally consistent than your husband, that says the problem is over most people's heads.

The decision is yours and you can speak from your own experiences like the rest of us.  Your situation sounds so familiar to a lot of us too.  Sad as that is, think of yourself and your kids.  Not of how he is going to react or get better after the divorce because that puts you right back in the same place you were in before the split. 

Again   .  Good luck to you.  Second guessing is common during the initial stages of any divorce.  The brain forgets some of the bad times.  Sometimes enough to cause self doubt.  Take some more time to think it over.  But concentrate on yourself and your children.

It is certainly allowed to say you think someone made the right decision (I think I read something about how you're not supposed to tell someone to run, but I'm already leaving, so that's a different story... .)

He will be around the kids whether we're together or not.  And if we're not together, there will be times he's around them alone... .

I know he's in therapy to try to get me back.  I guess, though, I will always wonder if he could have been one of the few to make it.  Most husbands on these boards don't acknowledge all their mistakes and get heavy counseling.  Of course, I do still see the problems.  I'm not naïve.  I just have a few weeks left to make a decision, and I just don't want to look back with regrets. 

I guess I also know that I don't get into relationships easily.  I'm shy and not a party type.  So in some ways he was a really good match for me.  It took a long time for me to find someone.   Also, I have trouble imagining loving someone else - no matter what he does, I guess I'm just like that, only able to open my heart to one person.

I think the problem is, with someone like him, you can't be halfway in or out.  It just causes more resentment.  If this was a normal situation, we could try to work it out.  I am too afraid to take a chance with him.

I can't know what he'd be like in the house until he moves back in.  And then I won't be able to get him out.  So, I'm not taking the chance. 

Thanks again for your help and perspective.  I keep waiting for the one thing someone says that gives me new insight, and I have gotten some pretty good insight here.  There is no magic, perfect thing to do. 

You sound like you really thought about this and that takes guts.

Consider this:  the reasons/rationale that is having you doubt your decision is the same rationale that kept you in your situation for so long.  It's a different version of it.  Probably a more evolved version.  I understand being shy or not able to meet someone.  I am the same way.  A lot of people think the next person will get the new and improved version of our ex's.  From reading this board for so long, that is usually not the case.

If you remove the BPD from the situation, I have discovered that it is almost primal for people to reach out when they perceive that something is being taken away.  To apply this to BPDs and divorce, he doesn't want to lose you.  He will do what it takes to keep what he has.  He is comfortable in that situation just like any normal human being.  But, it is much more intense for nons and the BPD they are involved with.  The feeling of loss tends to be greater.  YOu are leaving because of a laundry list of reasons, good reasons.  He only sees you leaving.  He hasn't had any long term self introspection.

There is also no reliable way to test whether or not you can work it out with him.  Thus far, all indications are that you can't live with him and feel comfortable in your own home.  You are fiercely loyal to a fault.  There is nothing wrong with only giving your heart to one person.  That is noble and the right thing to do.  But, when that person is volatile, unpredictable and unable to be around your children, the choice is yours.

And finally, you said you can't be half in or half out with him.  That would be the case for anyone.  But, I think you are getting ahead of yourself.  What would have caused someone to be half in or out?  Nobody chooses to be that way unless there was a circumstance that would cause reluctance or distance to protect one's self.  If someone punches you in the stomach without warning or reason, every time you are around that person you will not trust them.  You will flinch when they make sudden movements, you will cringe when they are near you or get yourself ready for the next onslaught.

You have been punched in the stomach (emotionally) for years but in different forms.  But, your reaction is still the same. Removing yourself is the best thing you could have done. 

Hi Momtara,

I just wanted to give you   for the hard work you've done with going through with almost finalizing the divorce.  I divorced my exBPDh in March this year.  We didn't have children, but I'm going through the hard fertilization process, trying to have a child on my own, with no success so far.  I still yearn for my ex to be here to comfort me through this trying time on my body, mind, soul, and finances, but I haven't called him yet.  I am now going to CoDa meetings and letting God into my life because my life isn't easier with all my personal hardships without him.  But, there is something inside me that still maintains NC.  I could say now that I've unexpectedly discovered new wounds and overcome so much of my own baggage and am still growing! I've grown so much. 

I just wanted to say that what you're going through is not easy.  There are pros and cons, as you've stated.  I sense you have great fear in what's to become of your future for you and your young kids.  The question of getting through the final divorce is a spiritual one, and an instinctual one.  There are not so many crossroads in life, but you must make the best decision you can for you and your children.  There's no black and white choice, but the best choice is from your greater self and higher self, and these choices come with hard circumstances. 

I know, all right now in you is great fear.  AND, it's not going to be pretty later if you divorce: you're going to confront your great fears, grieve this loss of your partner, and rebuild a life for you and your children, and ultimately confront all of yourself.  This is very scary, we all know.  But, with loving support and with time you will heal.  You don't know that yet, but as many of us know, the gradual light will come in.  The light is your own greater self, your true strength.   

No one can walk the path for you, as you know.  If you stayed with him, you would have to do equal the spiritual and emotional work, I think.  All the best, dear, you're not alone, our hearts are with you in this time.

dharmagems  

Thanks, puzzled and dharma.

Dharma, good luck with the fertilization.  I'm sure it will all work out.  And you won't have to lie awake at night because you have to share your kids with a disordered person!  I contemplated going that route before I met my husband.  I'm sure there would have been lonely times, but great times too.  The grass is always greener. 

You will be a great parent.

momtara, you sound very consistent that you don't feel safe letting him move back in, and don't trust him not to mess with you regarding the kids (call social services, etc.) or mess with the kids.

You also say that he does seem to be improving rather than getting worse, although you don't trust that much, and don't sound patient about waiting for him to be cured.

You have spent time on the staying board, and know something of the kind of commitment the non- has to make to stay in a r/s like this. Sometimes that resolve comes and goes a bit... .are you willing to do that work?

Of course the work you do is really on yourself, and will help you either in or out of the r/s. I know of a few members here who ultimately ended their r/s but credited the things they learned on staying as being very helpful in getting over the loss.

A successful r/s for you requires your commitment to doing all you can on your part to improve the r/s (without allowing yourself or your children to be harmed). Even with this commitment, you may see a point where you have done all you can, and need to end the r/s to save yourself and children. Allibaba's recent story is a truly inspirational version of this kind of commitment, and I know she has been very close to ending it, and is prepared to if needed.

You know that choosing to end the divorce process will set you back in time and money, and possibly worse if you need to re-start it later.

Nothing will make this anything other than what it is--a very tough choice. If you stay honest with yourself about what you want and why you are making your choice, you will make the right choice.

 GK

Well, thanks.  I appreciate that.  I have been following Alibaba's story too. 

The one thing I am sure of is that i couldn't live with hubby again for several years.  I just wouldn't feel comfortable.  I'd feel like anything could be used against me if he goes into a rage.

What I have thought about is, what if in a few years we try again?  My fear is that if it doesn't work, it'll be harder to leave.  The kids, who are very young now, will be older and aware and he could manipulate them.  Or they might blame me for leaving.  Right now I don't have to worry about that.

If only the good side of him could prevail!  Becase he can be so sweet.

As for doing the work... .that is an issue.  But it's more the not trusting him with his lies.  I could do the work in the relationship if it was just verbal abuse against me.

In all of this talk of leaving or staying, I am trying to figure out if he's getting so disordered that i need a psych eval.  I wish it didn't have to be this way.  Divorce certainly doesn't help him in his road to recovery.

My gut tells me to leave.  I just know myself and that I may always wonder if I did everything I could. 

so, thought about it more this weekend, wrote in my journal.

The idea of divorce terrifies me.  I don't want to be 'divorced.'  I can't live with hubby, and sometimes my head spins for hours after talking to him.  But I don't want to be divorced.

Part of it is that I feel like if I stay married to him, I can participate in his therapy a bit more, and push him to get better.  At least, that is the best thing for the kids. 

Once I'm the ex-wife, what involvement do I really have?

He told me this weekend that he hopes we can get back together in a few years. 

The thing is, if I got into therapy with him, we could address specific behaviors better and maybe make more change.  But it also would make it harder to leave if that's what I want to do.

One issue is that it's possible that even if he got a lot of his illness under control, it'd still be hard to raise children with someone who can be so negative.  It is much easier to care for them as a single mom than as someone who has to share hourly decisions with my husband.  That probably factored into my decision to divorce a lot, too.

Deep down, I don't want to get divorced.  Whether that's because I'm codependent and doesn't have to do with hubby, I don't know.  I can't see myself getting into another relationship someday because it would feel like cheating. 

My happiest time was this summer, when there were no court dates and there was a lull.  I didn't have to live with hubby, but I also didn't have to deal with any divorce stuff.  Unfortunatley, you can't live in suspended animation forever.  There are financial concerns, emotional concerns.  Hubby kept pressing for an answer.

If I tell hubby I want to convert this divorce to a legal separation, he may want that too.  But it took a lot of work to get to a place where he was willing to detach from me without anger.  If I backstep once again, I may regret it.

Maybe it's healthiest to leave him and not look back.  I certainly have plenty of reasons to do so.  I'm just wondering why I feel like crap when I think about it.

Yes, by the way, I am seeing a decent therapist.  I have found that all therapists and lawyers are fallible and they all have such different opinions on everything.  My situation is complex and sharing it here helps me more than therapy.

You are in such a tough place emotionally, I can definitely feel it in your posts.

I will keep my reply brief.

If you separate, what does that do?  Doesn't it just delay the inevitable?  Won't he be 'getting better' because he knows it will get you back in the end?  Then what would keep him from falling back to who he was?

I ask these questions not to confuse you but to point out the fact that a lot of your actions seem to be based on 'delaying' things.  Waiting for him or giving him time to get better.

Meanwhile, you and the kids wait for your husband to get better, for how long?  What is this teaching the kids?  That daddy can act like he does and it's ok to wait around for him to show any signs of remorse or improvement?  That doesn't sound like it is 'best for the kids'.  Kids live in the present.  They see what he is capable of and this can ripple into their lives for a long, long time. 

I think you've made the right decision in removing yourself from your marriage.  Remember, BPDs are master manipulators, he knows what makes you tick. 

I can feel it, you know what to do.  Fight your codependence and think of yourself for once.  It will feel odd at first but great in a while.  Your kids will thank you.  Your future you will thank you.

I appreciate that. 

My kids are so young right now that they don't really understand what's going on anyway.  So in that sense, they don't know.  They ask for daddy sometimes, and they talk to him on the phone every night.

I know I like to delay.  I just am scared of making a mistake. 

I have noticed that no matter how many friends I have, or relatives, I'm never going to be first in anyone's life (adult wise, anyway).  Really, when it comes down to it, you've got your spouse who is supposed to be loyal to you, and that's it.  It's a hard thing to give up.  Yes, he's got BPD so he's manipulative and right now I can't trust him.  But (as I think I said before) the idea of marriage was heaven to me.  Oh well, I have about 17 days before our final hearing.  That makes me kind of sad.  Maybe for the wrong reasons, but it does.  It would be easier if I hated him.  I have trouble hating anyone.

I have less than 3 weeks now to decide to convert this to a separation or just finish the divorce. 

I find it all very surreal.  I don't really feel like I'm getting divorced.  I can't even speak the word.  Every time I hear from my lawyer, I feel sick.  I don't want to go into court.  Last time I kept picturing it for days and feeling ill.  I don't know if these are normal feelings.  it seems like most people here just put up with court and they are glad to be done.  I still wear my wedding ring and probably will continue to.  I haven't told most of my friends that I'm getting divorced.  It's just too painful to really face.

I understand completely.

Another question:  Are you afraid of his reaction once the divorce is final?

  You are being very thoughtful and honest with how you are feeling about this, and I like that a lot. Keep working through it, you will get there.

I did see one  red-flag that you mentioned, though:


Regarding this, I'm gonna be as blunt as a sledgehammer. Yes, T for him will benefit him and the kids. No, your desire to "participate" or "push him" won't help anybody. Not you. Not him. Not your kids. This kinda stuff just doesn't make anything work better. Well, at least ACTING on this desire doesn't make anything better.

I recommend you try to let that go, as best you can.

Other than that, I've found that for me, one thing I do to make a tough decision is mentally say "I'm going to take choice A" and try to live with that for a few days, and plan on it happening, before taking any permanent actions. If choice A isn't right for me, my feelings in response to the commitment will tell me about it. Then I can re-visit things and try again.

Wishing you peace and clarity,

 GK

Hi Momtara,

I have to jump in on this topic.  I know your story just as you know mine.

I think that if you have any doubts that you should PAUSE the divorce (not stop) long enough to resolve them in yourself.  Its only fair to you (forget him at this point you have to think about you, you've probably spent a lifetime worrying about him).

Its OK not to want to be divorced.  That's a normal, healthy reaction to looking at divorce and that says that you are a person of substance (not someone who just throws things away at a whim).

As you know, I have been through hell in the last 6 months with my husband and many, many, many people on these boards have recommended that I leave him or recommended therapeutic separation (and for the record I totally agree that therapeutic separation is a good option) but that's not my reality at the moment.


I think that you have been amazing through all of this 

My experience (though results still to be determined) is that if you want to give your relationship any hope of true success (as in if you want to give it a shot), you have to cling to your boundaries like they are the last thing on earth - for you and your kids. My question for you is that above you say that it will be a lot harder to extricate yourself from the situation.

At your core - Who is it harder for?  For you?  For him?  For the kids?  And at the end of the day - what is harder... .being divorced?  Or giving him a shot to get better?  Only you can answer these questions. 

In my situation only, I don't feel comfortable walking away until I have given it every last bit of me.  This is better for my son as well and I know that.  My husband is a good person and he deserves that shot too (but he's no. 2 after our son and I).


Giving him a shot to get better makes things worse for who?  For you?  For him?  For your kids?  Are you worried that he is going to dysregulate if you guys don't live happily ever after?  I'm going to be blunt - he's going to dysregulate anyway... .no matter how perfect you do things.  That is the nature of the illness.  You can't control this - regardless of whether you are married or not - you are parents together and you will feel the effects of his dysregulations.  Sorry!


red-flag Momtara you can't keep things from reaching a boiling point.  If you want to give him a shot, then somewhere within yourself you would have to find the radical acceptance to know that things will reach a boiling point and your lives will never be stress free (no one's life is) and you need to feel confident that the situation is such that you can effectively protect yourself and your children and that you can stand up to him even when things aren't at the boiling point.

Have you gotten your own therapy during this?  I can't remember.

I don't have any answers - just a lot of questions but     

I respect your ability to step back and talk about this openly.

Great replies and perspective for momtara to contemplate here.  amazing.

From what I've read and your story, he is still very much in control of the situation.  Momtara, there is nothing wrong with wanting to work it out.  Seriously, that is very heart felt and shows what kind of person you are.

He will have to get better on his own power.  Loving someone who is mentally ill is difficult and challenging.

It's is ultimately up to you of course.

Good luck in your endeavors and marriage.  Take care of yourself first.

Thanks to everyone who provided perspective.

When I said I can help in therapy, I mean, I could come with him and point out some issues to work on.  Right now, he is not fully conscious of what he does that's so hurtful, and I don't know that he shares everything with his shrink.  I feel like the core issues could be addressed a lot better if we were all doing therapy together.  Not if I am an ex wife just hoping he gets better for the kids' sake.

It is a confusing situation.  Yesterday he apologized for something he went off the rails about.  But today he went off the rails again (via text) and I felt so glad I am not living with him and maybe glad I am divorcing him.  Then I started feeling bad again, thinking, this is something I could bring up in therapy if we were still married.

I don't know if I'm grieving the divorce or grieving him, or just scared of being alone.  Or maybe not sure which is better for my kids.

Alibaba, you are brave.

I think I really feel bad because I remember that he wanted to change a few months back, and I was afraid he couldn't, and it was my one chance to leave.

Some of you don't agree with the idea that it will be harder to leave if I wait six months.  I think it will.  Every step I took to detach over the last 6 months has sent him into a tailspin.  He recovered each time, but not after a lot of pain.  Just don't know if I want to go through that in a year.

I don't know why I am expending all this energy on someone who is cruel to me and who sometimes puts himself before our kids.  I guess I have to figure out how much hope there is for change.  When he is good, I get hopeful.  

You have to deal with people as they are.  Accept them as they are.  And accept whether you want to be aruond them or not based on the reality of their persona, as they are.

Leaving now does not mean it's over for ever.  Chances are he won't heal his own demons and get better as a partner if he is with you.  Being with him will enable him to not change.  He'll likely only get to be a better partner on his own, while he is alone.  That way he CANNOT fall back into old relational behaviors, at least with you.  He won't have the option.

I'm sorry, I know the feeling of "Am I really doing the right thing now?" when contemplating/going through a divorce.  It's heartbreaking.  Unfortunately, you won't know the answer for certain until it's done, and some time has passed.  His post-divorce behavior will answer all this for you.  If he gets better, and it's real and genuine, then there will be real opportunity for reconciling then.

PS Momtara my husband has done really well for at least two weeks now.  No violent behavior, sticking with the negativity towards himself not towards me or our son. 

But last night was tired and stressed and he quietly said the most bizarre thing "if child services saw the dog hair on your pillow -they would take that child away from you."  OK.  The dog ninjaed her way onto the pillow.  The stupid pillow can be washed.  I'm confident that child services doesn't give a rats @ss about the dog hair on a pillow. 

I thought of you because of what your husband did to you.  I thought - what a bizarre statement to make.  I also thought that another critical tool of hanging in there in a BPD relationship is arming yourself with an army of people around you who know exactly what kind of parent you are:  doctors, daycare professionals, family members (I don't hold anything back).  Of course I don't go around proclaiming how bizarre things get in our lives sometimes but I don't hide things anymore.  And that is one of my tools to feel more comfortable.

Thanks, Waddams and Ali.

Yeah, Ali, that's the kind of statement my husband used to make.  Of course, it's because they are afraid of losing us - or the kid(s).  My husband said later he did all those things because he thought I was going to take the kids away from him. 

I think a person can end up dead inside from having to hear stuff like that all the time.  But maybe it will get better with counseling and time. 

For me, I don't know.  My husband seems vengeful.  He calls the kids every night, and tonight he didn't.  So I'm in a tailspin waiting for him to call so I can go on with my night.  It's just playing games.  The kids expect him to call now, and he's not.  Kind of mean.

And then I come back to - well, if we were together, I could address this in counseling. 

It bothers me that a few days ago, he apologized for being angry, and then he does the same stuff again today.  If he can't control it at all, what else might he do?  And if we're breaking up, he may just have no incentive to change.

Sorry to keep rambling.  I am leaning toward continuing with the divorce.  But I still wonder.

There is this part of me also wondering, "What if, say, I told him I was marrying someone else.  How far would he go to get back at me?  What would he do?"  I don't think it will happen, but I wonder.     I am still tiptoeing.

You speak of things like your H playing games with you and the kids (not calling tonight, for example) and fear that he may dysregulate, and do nasty things.

Divorce won't protect you or the kids from this sort of stuff--he will still have contact with them, and is likely enough to get partial custody in addition.

My feeling is that your best bet is to  look carefully at those fears, see what you are afraid of, think about what is possible and what your H is likely to do, and what you can do to mitigate the risks.

Somewhere along the way I realized that I'm a much happier Grey Kitty if I don't let my fears control my choices and my actions. The fears are real, I need to listen to them, but after that I need to decide what actually fits my values before I act.

well, i am just being vigilant.  that's about all i can do.  if something happens, i'll ask for an evaluation.  we also might get a parent coordinator, but so far i've interviewed a few and it seems like it may not be an answer.

Anyway... .he told me tonight that he talked to his shrink about his reactions today.  i'm not quite sure i believe him.  he used to tell this same lie all the time.  but at least he knows he overreacted.

hmmm, i must really be codependent.  i am still dealing with him all day.  deep down, maybe it keeps me from being lonely.  how dysfunctional that is!  (At least i know it!)

This morning I was having two thoughts:

1)  If not for my kids around, I'd be really lonely.  I am very worried that in a few years, when the kids are hanging out with their friends and I am alone, and hubby is with someone else, I'll feel so sad.  I am good at entertaining myself - books, movies, the like - but those things don't fill a hole when everyone around you has a family.

2)  What is the line between trying everything to make it work... .and being a victim of emotional abuse who won't leave?

Don't worry - most of us are.  By doing the recent work in my relationship, I am getting enough space to see my own inability to be comfortable in my own skin.  I am embracing and feeling the anxiety when it comes on... .acknowledging it for what it is... .but choosing to feel it instead of avoiding it. 

What can you do to become more healthy in your interactions with your husband?  Regardless of whether you get divorced or not - I think that that should be the end game.  Your side of the street... .not his.

Also, its ok to feel lonely.  We all do, even in our BPD relationships.  What can you do to develop relationships around you (they don't need to be romantic)... .do you have a hobby where you could join a club, is there a local church that you participate in.  Again, I don't think that this is a question of something we do when we are facing divorce, I believe that it is a healthy thing to look at WITHIN the relationship as well.

  Hang in there!

You are going to have doubts.  But if you read your posts, most of your actions are based on his actions.  You still love him and have kids with him so there is a bond.  That may be confusing you.  If he knows he is being watched by you and he still behaves as before, it won't improve if he is around or not.  He has to get help for himself and not to save the marriage. 

You also seem to be excusing his behavior and trying to figure him out.  You are setting yourself up for failure because you are so used to looking at his issues and behaviors that when you have to deal with your own after the divorce it will be overwhelming.  Try making a list of your own issues, not having to do with him!  That will help you refer back to your life when he is not in it as much.  You may not be able to protect your kids from him but being divorced will at least remove them from the possibility of being affected by his behaviors.  I know you said your kids are very young but they are smart cookies.  They can sense tension, anger and fear.  Those are things that children should not experience in their own house where they should be safe and secure with mom and dad.  Read the stories on this board about having a BPD parent and you'll see the damage starts at a very early age.

hi momtara, i have nothing deep to say except that you are thinking this through very well and by doing so you will in the end surely come to the right decision. the advice here has been very thoughtful too.


yes, i wish every day for something like that too.

I've read much of your posting history and, like many others here, applaud your continuous efforts on behalf of your family. 

On another thread, livednlearned has given you the most courageous and astute advice that perhaps anyone could give you. She truly has the "standing" to comment on your situation and its long-term implications. You have touched some hearts in this community to be the beneficiary of such generous advice, though it has to be distressing to hear.

I guess I fall into the camp of those who suspect you already know what you need to do and that you will indeed have the courage to do it. 

Which thread?  She does give good advice.  Getting divorced is the easy way - I'm almost there.  Just have to show up for one more court date.  Holding off a little longer, or converting this to a legal separation, is the riskier thing for me.  No matter which I way I go, I'll be scared.

Ah, I saw her post.  I had missed it before.  Very insightful.

I will probably continue with the divorce.  I just know myself and how hard I fall in love, and I'm so afraid of looking back 20 years from now and remembering that he begged me not to get divorced, and I let him go.  Maybe for good reasons.  But I will wonder if there was another way.

This is the post of LnL I feel is without price, truly:

"Being traumatized enough to end the marriage, but then having feelings of attachment for him after the divorce ... .that must be terribly confusing for you, momtara. I understand why you'd share this on the family law board because divorce is what we all have in common , but the nature of what you're getting at is a very deep personal inventory question. Here, you may find some comfort in hearing how others respond, but something much deeper is going on inside you, and comparing experiences won't help you drill deep enough to figure out what the confusion is about. You have to figure out why you are feeling this way, and understand how it is affecting you. 

Being in dysfunctional relationships is usually very comforting and familiar to people who are accustomed to being in them. The abuse, chaos, disorder, dysfunction -- all of that feels so familiar that we tolerate things healthy people would not. When we decide to end these relationships, it's a sign that we're choosing to be healthy. So yearning for the dysfunctional relationship after ending it is a sign something is stuck. What is stuck for you? Or more importantly, how are you going to get unstuck?

For me, it was S12. I was too disordered in the beginning to make healthy choices for myself. But when it came to S12, I had way more wind in my sails. I wanted to know what it meant to raise an emotionally healthy child. That has been the gift that keeps on giving, because I will make drastic changes in myself for his well-being when I don't have what I need to make those changes for myself. If it's the same for you, if your kids are what motivate you, then you have to figure out how being stuck is affecting them. Because this kind of stuff definitely affects them.

Our kids study us closely, read our cues, our body language, the tone in our voice, the expression on our face. They know how we feel. They are watching us more closely than anyone has ever watched us in our life. They're studying our behavior and figuring out that this is what women or men do, this is how women and men love. This is what women and men allow. This, then, is how they will love.

Yesterday, my son told me that his friend, a new kid who moved to town and became friends with my son at the start of the school year, is not a real friend. He isn't a real friend because he only laughs when my son gets hurt, or when other kids get hurt. When my son tells him to stop, his friend calls him a hypocrite. S12 told me the next time this kid does something mean, he's going to get up from the cafeteria table, and tell him he's a jerk and doesn't want to be his friend. I asked him if he had thought about doing it slowly, over time, so it wasn't dramatic, and S12 said, "No because I want him to know exactly why I'm not going to be his friend. I have other friends and I don't need him."

I know in my heart, deep down to the core of my being, that my son would never do that if I had not stood up to his dad and left. I taught S12 self-respect. I taught him to be assertive.

It takes my breath away when I see the ripples this long after leaving N/BPD.

If you can figure out where your feelings of confusion are coming from, and what they're about -- not just naming them but knowing where they come from, then you can help your daughters understand. My T referred to it as "changing the script." You have taken a big step with the divorce -- it means that you are ready to change the script. But something psychological and emotional is stuck, and that's a rich place to dig."

^^^This reply is beautiful.  Kids pick up on things you wouldn't even dream they would.  What kind of message are you sending your kids if you stay?

Great tread guys and dolls.

I would only 'stay' and invite him to move back in if there were big changes.  Regardless, I've moved on from this by now, realizing that we both need to be apart for years before we can consider getting back together. 

I do regret having jumped right into divorce without a separation.  But that was STBX's idea, although he later regretted it.   STBX wanted us to work on his issues together - but he only said all that after I finally filed for divorce.  At that point, I had to protect myself from his future custody battles and such.  He kept trying to win me back, but then would become that 'other' person and say something angry or lie.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I didn't know at the time that he'd change his mind.  Well, if he gets the right help, maybe someday things will work out.  He is very difficult to live with and if it's a choice between divorce or constantly being pressured by him to get back together, I guess I did the right thing.

momtara,

Glad to hear you are somewhat at peace with your decision.  It is uncomfortable to do something for yourself and it sounds like he was still pulling on you to solve his problems.

Sometimes making a decision is more of a relief instead of being in limbo and second guessing yourself.  That back and forth wears on us, even those with tons of intestinal fortitude.

Don't let him ruin your experience of discovering yourself and the world around you.  You will soon learn that the dynamic between you and your kids will improve now that you don't have someone constantly stirring the pot.

Be good to yourself and reap the rewards of becoming the person you were prevented from being.