BPDFamily.com

Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Conflicted About Continuing, Divorcing/Custody, Co-parenting => Topic started by: raytamtay3 on November 21, 2013, 10:02:06 AM



Title: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 21, 2013, 10:02:06 AM
Hi. Coming over here at the advice of a fellow member from the Supporting Your Child or Family Member with BPD.

My DD14 was arrested last night for unauthorized possession of a controlled substance (xanax) which she stole from my mother who has been living with us for two weeks and who is on hospice. She got to them before we could lock them up.  She has been charged with a crime in the fourth degree and two counts of disorder.

At the police station she was relentlessly running her mouth to the police officers. Calling them pigs, saying things like "I should have run so I can see that dude over there jog after me". Asking if they keep the drugs to use themselves. Telling one of the police officer she hates him the most and to shut the f up, etc. She was finger printed and now has a mug shot.

She told me I need to get her a lawyer. I said I'm sorry but I will not. That if the only way I can get her the help she needs is for her to go to jail or a residential treatment center, I'm going to do it. Then she called me every name in the book in the police station. Sorry but validation went out the window last night. Told me how the kid she got arrested with (he was charged with possession of mariuanna with the intent to distribute), that his parents are "cool" and will help him to get out of it.  I'm sorry, I have never been and will never be an enabler. She made her bed now she has to lie in it.  My goal is to save her from herself at whatever cost.

Right now I'm just impartial to it all because I'm so burnt out. I've been waiting for something like this to happen. So part of me is relieved that maybe NOW she can get the proper help whether it be going to juvi or a residential treatment center because something's got to give, and depressed and scared that I'm going to be the one who has to pay the massive fines she is sure to get.  How I keep going I have no idea... .



Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: Waddams on November 21, 2013, 10:20:31 AM
If you're going to have a run in with the law, as a juvie is the way to do it.  That way your record is sealed at 18 and you get a clean slate. 

I'm sorry for what's happened, though.  It's got to be tough watching her go through this.  Did you bail her out?  Or leave her there?

And I agree, there are situations where validation just isn't an option.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: ForeverDad on November 21, 2013, 10:24:41 AM
I agree, you don't want to risk validating, appeasing or even enabling her rebellious behaviors.  I can think of a couple choice words... .consequences... .tough love... .  Whether it will have the desired impact and response, well, that's largely up to her.  She has maybe up to 3 years to get her act together.

She is at an age where you as parent may be able to help guide the legal process into therapy, counseling program, residential treatment or some other productive consequences, but you can't let her manipulate you into 'helping' her out of a jam she got herself into.

Another parent's woes:

There was a radical idea a few decades ago, not sure where it stands today... .  Tough Love.

Yes, you love her but you have to be tough (that is, firm boundaries).  She has confused appeasement with love.  Probably on purpose too, so she can use it as leverage with those she encounters, such as trying to drive a wedge between her own parents.  Likely she has a history of such blaming, guilting and manipulation, right?  Taking her back based on a few claimed words that don't match the history is appeasement.  Hard as it is to do - the 'tough' part of your love - you can choose to let her face her consequences.  I get the feeling that if you don't take the tough love pattern this time, she will just be welcoming you back onto her roller coaster ride to nowhere.

Keep reading, keep learning, keep sharing and over time you will find that you can make more perceptive observations, more informed and confident decisions.



Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 21, 2013, 10:48:03 AM
Hi. They don't keep juvinilles in our district. So she was released to our custody. And she is blaming me saying how I am encouraging the officers to send her to jail. Has not owned up to any of this. Never has. It's never her fault.

A little history. Her father and I divorced 4 years ago and had split custody 50/50 (one week on, one week off).  Last year, he signed over full custody on his own because he couldn't deal with her anymore.  She had people in the house on two separate occasions and they stole $500 and also his baseball collection... .

I'm remarried (a year ago) and my husband has been a presence in her life for 3 years. At first she loved him and now he is painted black because he works with inmates and is savvy to the criminal mind. We've installed cameras in the house (not her room); have deadbolts on our doors, etc. So as soon as he started asserting his authority, he is the enemy to her.

Anyway, from a very early age (3) I knew something wasn't right. She did not act like any other child that I had ever seen. Hyper, defiant, etc. No matter what I did it didn't work. Reward charts, discipline, etc. I wanted to do early intervention but her father fought me on it saying we just weren't consistent enough... .I would cry to him that something was not right... .she was almost kicked out of 1 day care and we received daily reports from others about her behaviour. Which continued through school.

Long story short, when I left him I finally began getting her the help she needed. She was 8 at that time. She was first diagnosed with ADHD, then ODD and ADHD, then intermittent explosive Disorder, than an emotional disorder with BPD "traits".  Had her in two separate behavioral health centers. Both times she was discharged after only a week due to insurance issues.  Have been working with a therapist and caseworker through our state who comes in home once a week.  I’ve tried EVERYTHING. And I mean EVERYTHING. NAME IT I TRIED IT.

We’ve called the police on her several times for staying out really late or for not coming home at all. We’ve lived in our community for only 2 years. The stricter we are the worst she gets.

I’m at my wits end. I love my daughter more than life. It’s got to be one of the hardest things for a mother to see their beautiful, smart, caring child on such a self-destructive path and to not know why. She was never abused. She comes from a loving and devoted and supportive family(before and after the divorce). It’s just so heartbreaking. She is verbally and sometimes physically abusive to her 6 year old brother (from my former marriage too).

She smokes pot. I believe she had the intent to sell the Xanax. She is promiscuous with several partners (and unprotected because she refuses to use birth control).  She lies, steals, manipulates rages, cuts, etc. It’s her world and we just live in it.  She is fearless. Does not care who you are.  She is on homebound instructions because her school cannot deal with her. She has an IEP.

But my mission is to get her the help she needs before she is 18 and it’s out of my hands.



Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: DreamGirl on November 21, 2013, 11:24:22 AM
Have you seen this link?

What you need to know if your child is arrested (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=211658.0)


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 21, 2013, 11:26:36 AM
Have you seen this link?

What you need to know if your child is arrested (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=211658.0)

Yes. Thanks.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: Deb on November 21, 2013, 11:32:16 AM
fwiw, I think you did the right thing. BPDs need consequences for them to alter their behavior. Also, people abusing drugs/alcohol need consequences. The kid who has "cool" parents? He isn't going to stop what he is doing. Hopefully the court will force her into therapy.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: maxen on November 21, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
hi ray. your situation is beyond stressful and i wish you all the strength. i really can't imagine what it's like.

is it possible to request residential treatment before a court? i mean, instead of jail? or is that wholly up to the court's discretion?


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 21, 2013, 12:24:13 PM
hi ray. your situation is beyond stressful and i wish you all the strength. i really can't imagine what it's like.

is it possible to request residential treatment before a court? i mean, instead of jail? or is that wholly up to the court's discretion?

Hi Max. I'm not sure.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: livednlearned on November 21, 2013, 03:03:10 PM
In family law, many of us seek a few consultations with lawyers before retaining one -- in some areas, consultations are free or they charge a nominal fee. Perhaps $50 or $100.

Going forward, there is a chance that you've just entered a new kind of relationship with your daughter, where the courts are often involved. So it's good to get familiar with how the courts work now before things start moving quickly. It sounds like you are wisely letting her face the consequences of her behavior, but there is also room to advocate for her as best you can, using legal tools and strategy to support her (vs. enabling her, which is different).

Most of the stories on the family law board tend to be about custody, but there are lots of people here who have extensive experience dealing with court.  So while there are some here who have dealt with courts and juveniles, most of us are in family court where divorce and custody are handled. Even so, this is a good place to think out loud, with people who understand the psychological and emotional part about dealing with BPD and courts. You'll find lots of people here to support you 

There is also www.avvo.com, where you can ask questions for free. You probably know, though, that laws are different from state to state and county to county, so the legal advice there isn't as helpful as having your own lawyer.

You sound strong, and I admire the strength it must take to let your child face consequences. That's hard for many of us to do, not just with kids, but with grown-ups with BPD.

The court system works best when you understand it. When you know what lawyers do, and why. There is so much more room for negotiation than I initially thought. I don't know if it works the same way with juveniles, but my guess is that there is room for you to be an ally in getting your daughter the right kind of help. See how much influence you can have in the kinds of decisions that get handed down. You know her better than anyone else. Also, it could be that there are some centers that have better therapeutic programs than others, and better outcomes for treatment, and you may want to have a say in where she goes (if she goes).









Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 21, 2013, 03:19:16 PM
Last night I told my husband (DD's stepdad) to "take the wheel" because I don't have any fight left in me. So when DD's bio dad (my exh) called me after DD called him crying that I was going to let her go to jail and started telling me that "you can't send our daughter to jail", DH took the phone. Up until that point DH and ex have never spoken. Ex wants nothing to do with DH. The man who is helping raise his daughter... .but I digress on that one... .

History. Ex gave me full custody of DD last year because he couldn't handle her anymore.  Up until that point, we shared 50/50 custody (one week on one week off). Accept for last weekend, he even refused to take DD every other weekend since May! So DH got on the phone and told him that we are handling this. That this is OUR house and OUR rules and since she lives with us, we are making the decision. Well ex started in on how this is between him and me blah-blah-blah and DH told him that he hasn't even seen DD since May and that's when ex went off calling DH all kinds of names, which is typical of him. DH hung up on him.

DH just forwarded me a text he just received from DD basically cussing him out and threatening to make his life a living hell. I fully expect world war 3 again. It's going to get ugly! I expect DD to rage when I get home and ultimately end up hitting DH. She's gotten close before, but instead licked her hand and smeared it on his face.

Pray for us.



Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: Waddams on November 21, 2013, 04:12:18 PM
Any kind of threatening/confrontational physical contact is considered battery here.  She could be arrested for it if she did it to someone that decided to call the cops.

Can you contact an attorney?  Just calling the cops and letting the system sink it's teeth into her could also not have a happy outcome.  Perhaps an attorney that knows the ins and outs of all this could help guide you in getting her the treatment she plainly needs and also engaging the legal system as it's now involved due to the arrest.

This is a question - would it be better to just minimize your dealings with your DD14 until you have a game plan mapped out?  Maybe make some appointments with a T and/or L and get some advice?  Have you, your DH, and your XH all attend?  I think you need some professional advice and guidance on all this before going too far down any path so all of the adults involved are on the same page.  Your DD14 is clearly at a critical crossroads in her life right now.  Depending on how the legal system acts, she could end up in circumstances that help her find her way to a better life, or she could end up on a path to a horrible outcome.

I feel for you.  Please keep posting!  What other outside support do you have?  Friends?  Family? Church?  You and your DH are going to need something.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 22, 2013, 09:36:26 AM
We simply do not have money for a lawyer. My divorce pretty much sucked me dry and we live paycheck to paycheck. Still paying off that debt.

I am going to talk to the judge myself on my daughter's behalf pleading he/she recommend RTC.

We have been working with an organization called Center for Family Guidance which is a non-profit community based program.  We have an inhome T as well as a caseworker who is working with us and trying to help guide us.  

As harsh at it may sound, I think my DD needs this wake up call. I've tried everything to help her and everything has failed. So I'm going to try everything there is. Even if that means she goes to juvi. Hoping she'd be scared to death and learn from it not to keep making those choices. You should have heard her at the police station. Even I, dealing with her and her behaviour for years and being the primary target was shocked! I don't know how the officers kept their cool is all I can say.

I know I'm rolling the dice. But I have no other option at this point.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: ForeverDad on November 22, 2013, 10:01:46 AM
No one knows whether she will respond to a wake-up call.  Sometimes we say a person going downhill can't dig themselves out* until they hit bottom and look up.  The problem is that (1) we can't say in advance what a 'bottom' might be and (2) we don't know whether they'll look up.

* while you can provide limited support of positive actions, you can't do it for them

We empathize your distress.  There are so many different factors that might cause BPD-like behaviors. Sometimes, as in your case, there is no clear answer.  So just deal with the situation as it is.  If you've done your reasonable best, which you've obviously done, then don't feel guilted overmuch.  You did and are doing what you can.  You have other children and family members who are important to you, I'm sure you're caring for their best interests as well.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 22, 2013, 10:27:16 AM
No one knows whether she will respond to a wake-up call.  Sometimes we say a person going downhill can't dig themselves out* until they hit bottom and look up.  The problem is that (1) we can't say in advance what a 'bottom' might be and (2) we don't know whether they'll look up.

* while you can provide limited support of positive actions, you can't do it for them

We empathize your distress.  There are so many different factors that might cause BPD-like behaviors. Sometimes, as in your case, there is no clear answer.  So just deal with the situation as it is.  If you've done your reasonable best, which you've obviously done, then don't feel guilted overmuch.  You did and are doing what you can.  You have other children and family members who are important to you, I'm sure you're caring for their best interests as well.

Thank you.  You words do make me feel better.  As much as I'm trying to put on a brave and strong face, this is k*lling me.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 22, 2013, 10:35:26 AM
I honestly don't know WHAT to do. I love my DD more than words can express. But I'm watching her spiral out of control. And I still cannot understand why. Not that it matters, but she is absolutely stunning. We are talking model like. It's just so hard to look at her and SEE the mental illness, if that makes sense. I guess because she looks so "normal". She is so loving when she wants to be. So caring. But it seems more so for her friends than her family most of the time. She got suspended so many times for defending her friends. She has so much potential. She was in BB from the age of 5 - 12 and was incredible. They actually put her on the boy's team towards the end she was so good. Her closet is filled with trophies.  :'(

I can't take it. I really can't. I have people in the background (DH) who never had kids and doesn't really know what I'm going through. He gets mad when I say that, but it's true. I'm her mother. I delivered her. He is pushing for her to go away.

My kids and I are very affectionate. I come from an affection mother myself. My DD will come up to me and hug me often when she is stable. She gets in moods where she follows me like a lost puppy. I know she wants me around her. That she craves my affection. How can I send her away? It's one of the hardest decisions I will ever have to make. But one I feel I have to in hopes to save her. But I get told from some that it may make things worse. I simply do not know what to do. All I do know is even if I wanted to try and bail her out, I can't. My hands are tied now.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: Matt on November 23, 2013, 07:42:12 PM
Some thoughts... .kinda been there and done that... .

First, I think it's very, very good that you and your husband are working together on this, and that he has a lot of knowledge about these issues, and that you are willing to let him take the lead at times, when that gives you a break, and even to trust his judgment to some extent.  If you can support each other, and work as a team, it will help a lot.

Second, I think it's very important to recognize that no matter what you both do, it probably won't work, especially in the short term.  I think you know that giving her whatever she wants - in this case, a lawyer - won't fix things and might make things worse.  Unfortunately, the opposite - tough love, or any other approach - probably won't work very well either.  Until she is ready to accept help, she won't improve much, and this won't be easy for you.

Without engaging a lawyer, you can probably find out what your choices are.  For example, you can talk to the judge, and tell her that you care about your daughter and hope she gets help, but you can't have her back in your home right now.  Or maybe there are other options you can find out about, from someone at the court or from an attorney you talk with (but don't retain).

When my son was in rehab (two six-month stints) the staff told me that they prefer to get people right from jail - not from home - because when someone has been in jail for a while, and they come directly to rehab, they do better - they appreciate the choice they're being given, and they know that if they flunk out of rehab they might go back to jail.  If your daughter stays in jail a while, and then goes directly to a 24/7 residential treatment facility - preferably for quite a few months - that might help.  But be prepared for that to not work either - often it takes several cycles of jail/rehab/relapse/jail/rehab/relapse before a young person finally makes up their mind they want to stay clean.

A couple more thoughts:

First, people with experience in this field say there's almost always something underneath the substance abuse;  that is, the drugs (including alcohol abuse) are a symptom, not the disease.  There may be several layers that will need to be peeled back to understand what is driving the behavior - what is the main underlying problem.  And they can't figure any of that out as long as she is using drugs.  So first she'll have to get into a good recovery program, and along the way the underlying issues can be discovered and treated.  Just quitting drugs - even if she stays clean for a few months - won't do the trick, because the underlying problem will still be there.  So she'll relapse sooner or later.

Second, it's a very good thing that this is coming to a head while your daughter is so young.  It will mean at least a few years that are very difficult for you, but if it goes well - maybe not the first time, but sooner or later - if she can get into a strong recovery while she's still young, she'll have her whole life ahead of her.  If she was older - my son had been using for more than 15 years before he decided to get clean - it's much, much harder.

Finally, I want to strongly urge you and your husband to find an Al-Anon chapter and go regularly, and follow their program.  It's basically a 12-step program for those of us who have a substance abuser in our lives.  You certainly can't help your daughter if you're not OK yourself, and I can tell you from experience, this stuff can really grind you down - I guess you know that.  It's not going to get easy soon, so you need to have the support and guidance of Al-Anon and maybe a personal counselor too.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: maxen on November 23, 2013, 08:07:40 PM
i second Matt's suggestion of Al-Anon. my stbxw was/is an alcohol abuser (not uncommon in pwBPD) and i have benefited already from the companionship and will i hope benefit from the program as i work through my horrid divorce.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 26, 2013, 09:06:25 AM
Thanks everyone. I just posted from the hospital im at with dd under the parenting a son or daughter with BPD, (writing from my phone which is difficult to navagate) and cannot for the life of ne figure out how ti copy to here so if u want to read the latest events (horrid), feel free to read it thre. Thanks so much foe ur support.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: ForeverDad on November 26, 2013, 09:49:01 AM
What you need to understand - and accept - is that in some cases there is no clear and simple reason for a mental illness.  By definition, mental illness means the thinking, reasoning, cognition, response, empathy or whatever just isn't working right.

I don't know much about cars, so I'll use that as an illustration.  I can generally look at or listen to a car and state what seems to be the problem.  But I'm lost trying to make fixes beyond adding air, changing air filters, etc.  Even an expert can sometimes come across an issue that is just plain intractable.  Maybe they can tell you the What but maybe not the Why.  That's how it is with us humans, most people are reasonable normal, we just need little fixes to keep us going.  Others are disordered to varying degrees.  For some we can see the likely Why's, for others, such as with your daughter, it happened and just is. :'(

It's unhealthy to beat yourself up over it.  Even if there is no explanation that makes sense.  You did your reasonable best.  No child should expect more than that.  Yes, there is pain, that's unavoidable, but don't let it rule your life or it could ruin your life.

Another illustration, imagine you're all on a boat, the boat of life.  She jumps into a whirlpool and is getting sucked down.  She calls out to you for help and you throw a life ring.  She ignores it.  You jump in, risking your own life and manage to pull her out to safety.  But she turns around and jumps right back in and again starts calling out for help, just as before.  How many times do you jump in and each time risk your life even more as you grow more and more exhausted?

Perhaps even better is this story... .The Bridge (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.0)


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: livednlearned on November 26, 2013, 10:11:37 AM
Excerpt
I sit here at the hospital waiting since 11 pm last night for my insurance company to open to have dd admitted yet again to a bebavorial health center. Sunday night she took off in some dudes truck (reported her as a runaway) and didnt come home until 9 last night where she proceeded to text me while my mother and i was shopping, that i make her want to kill herself every day and that she cuts because of me. So i called 911 as i took the threat of killing herself seriously. Police came out, she assaulted one and now in addition to possession of a controlled and dangerous substance, she now has aggrevated assault added to the mix. She texted positive for marjuanna and cocaine last night and we now wait to go to the center which does no good but will at the very least keep her safe. She was like a wild animal last night. It took two police officers to subdue her which they almost couldnt even do. She lunged for me at one point and they tackled her to the ground cursing up a storm. Why is she so angry? Why does she hate me so much? I do t do anything. And im so tired of them all thinking this is a family communication issue when it is not. There is something seriously wrong with my daughter and she needs serious serious help. Also when the police tackled her a bottle of prescription pills prescribed.for her, but of which she refused months ago came flying out of a camera case bag she tried to run into the bathroom with. I believe she had plans to od last night. And lasty, we found a picture on her cell that she took last wednesday, they day of her first arrest, with about six cuts on her arm all bloody.

Hi raytamtay3, I just copied and pasted your post here for you.

I'm so sorry you're going through this.   

I know what it feels like to try and make sense of it -- so many of us who divorced our BPD spouses spent years doing that. It's hard to just accept the illness. We seem to want to explain it.

My mom felt similar feelings you describe with my uBPD brother. He wasn't into drugs, but he was a fighter. Our family lived in a really nice town, but he dressed like a thug. He was suicidal, barely finished high school, wouldn't move out of the house. Then there was me. High achieving, respectable, hard working, pleasant. We both came from the same family. We have the same parents. Same opportunities. Same school.

Sometimes, it just doesn't make sense.

I hope you get some rest soon. Sleep makes all the difference.



Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 26, 2013, 12:11:09 PM
Im about to say screw it and leave. Been here over 15 hours. Two hours  ago social worker said they found a bed and just needed to give additional info to place. Looks like i miss out on yet another day with my son whom i was to get for my custodial week yesterday.  :'(   but i am not spending another night here.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: livednlearned on November 26, 2013, 01:00:12 PM
Im about to say screw it and leave. Been here over 15 hours. Two hours  ago social worker said they found a bed and just needed to give additional info to place. Looks like i miss out on yet another day with my son whom i was to get for my custodial week yesterday.  :'(   but i am not spending another night here.

How is your son dealing with all this?


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on November 26, 2013, 01:09:52 PM
My son has been with his dad. And while you think that would be a good thing, my ex does not care aboht talking in front of the kids on adult matters and my son is pretty bright, so im sure he heard daddy talking to people on the phone aboht everything dispite my best efforts to remind him to talk in another room away from ds.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: livednlearned on November 26, 2013, 01:16:33 PM
As the sister of a uBPD brother, I feel for your son. pwBPD suck up so much energy. I really felt like collateral damage. Three decades later, he lives in a house my dad bought for him, is married, and has two kids. While I'm divorced, renting, and have no money.

I hope you get some rest and peace in the next few days, raytamtay3. Big hug to you.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on December 02, 2013, 08:34:04 AM
Advice needed.  The BHC that DD14 is in is a short-term treatment center where they basically just try to make sure they are stable before releasing them back home.  Tomorrow is our family session (first and last one apparently), and I was advised DD will be coming home.  I asked if her release was contingent upon the family session going well and was advised that yes it is.  My DH (SD to DD) was going to accompany me to the family session and we know for a fact that his being there will be a trigger for DD as she painted him black quite a while ago and he and I were going to lay everything on the table to the therapist in hopes (that's a bad way of putting it) that she would rage and being committed for a longer stay.  DD would not be able to hold back.  But I'm worried now that suppose they still release her to me and I have to drive the hour home with her in the car likely being irrate. She grabbed the wheel of my car before when she has raged (while I was driving over a bridge with DS6 in back seat). I'm pretty worried about something like that happening again.

So do I "walk on egg shells" during the session and tell DH not to come and just wait for our court appearance to try and get the judge to court order either a RTC or group home or do I go with our initial plan and let the center she is in now see what we are dealing with?


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: Matt on December 02, 2013, 09:20:43 AM
This could be a great opportunity.  Here's what I would suggest:

First, I would include your husband as much as possible.  You both supporting each other is one of the big things you have going for you, and if your daughter comes home, she'll be coming home to his house too.  Best to include him right up front.

Second, if possible, I would find out exactly what legal options you have before going to the meeting.  For example, if her behavior is bad, do you have the option to say, "We cannot have her in our home as she is now."?

You and your husband can decide before the meeting what your boundaries will be - what you will accept and what you will do if your daughter behaves in unacceptable ways.  "If you use, possess, buy or sell drugs, we will report that to the police."  "If you are disrespectful to us we will ask you once to stop, and after that we will remove your stuff from the house and you will not be welcome there."  Etc.  I'm not saying what they should be, but I think establishing very clear boundaries - "If you do X we will do Y." - and being ready to follow through with them, is critical.

At the meeting, don't be shy - don't be overlooked - speak up to make sure you get your turn.  Use the meeting as a forum to say your truth as you have planned.  Say you love your daughter and want what is best for her, and you're both going to do what you believe is best, and you are hopeful that she will do her part.  Say your boundaries - I would suggest using the word "boundaries" because that is how trained staff should understand what you are talking about so they can support what you're saying.  Be prepared for your daughter's reaction, and prepared to act accordingly.  If she is gracious and accepts your offer, great, take her at her word and give her a hug.  If she is obstinate or confrontational, stand your ground - "I'm very sorry that's your choice.  When you are ready to make a different choice call us and we'll talk again."  :)on't participate in figuring out what will happen next if she does not commit to your terms - state your terms and hold to them, and let her know your door will be open when she is ready.  Let your daughter and the staff figure out what's next if she will not commit to your terms.

If she does come home with you, find out if there are continuing services for her and for the family - can she come back to meetings?  Can you all come back to family meetings?  What other resources can they suggest?

See if you can get the staff to talk about AA and NA - maybe their personal experiences if they are in recovery themselves.  Going to meetings regularly could be one of your boundaries - it won't fix your daughter if she isn't ready, but if she wants to move forward it's one piece of the puzzle.

And some time along the way, you may want to talk openly about your own process - if you will be doing Al-Anon for example - what you have learned and what you will be doing for your own recovery.  Lead by example.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on December 02, 2013, 11:11:55 AM
Sounds like a good plan Matt. The only thing is, I don't think by law, since she is a minor, we can tell her she will need to leave the house. And let me tell you, she would jump at that chance if she could. She would have been long gone if that were possible, and hell, I'd have enforced that a long time ago. lol.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: Matt on December 02, 2013, 11:52:32 AM
Sounds like a good plan Matt. The only thing is, I don't think by law, since she is a minor, we can tell her she will need to leave the house. And let me tell you, she would jump at that chance if she could. She would have been long gone if that were possible, and hell, I'd have enforced that a long time ago. lol.

I think it's critical to find some way to make your boundaries stick.  I'm not a lawyer, and the law is different in different places.  Putting a minor child out of your house is a serious matter.  There must be some consequences if he behavior is not acceptable.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on December 02, 2013, 12:29:38 PM
Sounds like a good plan Matt. The only thing is, I don't think by law, since she is a minor, we can tell her she will need to leave the house. And let me tell you, she would jump at that chance if she could. She would have been long gone if that were possible, and hell, I'd have enforced that a long time ago. lol.

I think it's critical to find some way to make your boundaries stick.  I'm not a lawyer, and the law is different in different places.  Putting a minor child out of your house is a serious matter.  There must be some consequences if he behavior is not acceptable.

We are pretty much at the point of the major consequence for her continued refusal to follow the rules (boundaries) and that  is out of home placement. Whether it be a RTC of group home. She has been warned numerous times. I've told her if her father cannot control her and I cannot control her then the state is going to have to come in and she'd need to be placed out of home.  Her response was you always threaten me with that. And my rebutal was, stop making me have to threaten and ultimately, follow through by following our three simple rules. 1. Do not have anyone in the house when we are not home. 2. Be home on time for curfew. Adn 3. Be respectful. She has not followed any of them for a year. So now, if I have my way, the "threat" is going to be a reality.


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: raytamtay3 on December 02, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
I called DD yesterday to see if she needed anything and to tell her that there was a change in the day for the family meeting because I had my son today (last day of weekly custodial time) and had to get him to school and that we were rescheduling for tomorrow when I don't have him. She went off. Started crying saying how it's all about him (usually says it's all about me), how she was going to forgive me for sendind her there but now isn't since I'm making her stay another day, how her father hates me and even said how she doesn't need to be there, etc. I calmly told her I was sorry she felt that way but that it is what it is and that I will see her Tuesday. She hung up on me.  I called back to ask how, with the exception of the 5 minutes I was on the phone with her, how she was doing. The therapist said she heard the conversation and heard how DD was trying to manipulate me and play both sides of the fence. She said that DD was playing the game to get out of there, but how she takes no responsbility for being there.  I figured as much. She isn't ready to accept something is wrong and to want to make changes.

My mother is living with us and is on hospice and one of her nurses told me the other day she was just like my DD. I asked what was it that made her snap out of it and want to get better. She said she didn't really know. But she said the starting point was when she got a DWI and had a young son. That that was when things started to change for the better for her. At 30! I'm like 30? Good grief.

She recommended Al-Anon as well. And she pounded in my head that it is not my fault. That was nice to hear from someone who was like my DD. Because I think many of us have questioned at one time or another, if we somehow were to blame... .


Title: Re: DD14 Arrested
Post by: Matt on December 02, 2013, 01:18:40 PM
"what was it that made her snap out of it and want to get better."  The key question!

On your other thread, Scallops mentioned "rock bottom" - something so unpleasant that you decide to change.  The problem is, it's different for every individual, and you never know when someone hits their rock bottom - it's only clear much later, looking back.  You can say, "On December 2, 2013, I got a DUI, and went to jail, and that's when I knew I needed help."  But it means nothing til later - you might think it's true, but only time will tell.

My son went to prison - not jail, state prison - for four months, after getting his 3rd DUI - a felony in my state.  He was very affected by it, and swore he would never drink again, and I believed him - and I still believe he meant it.

He drank again less than 48 hours after getting out of prison.

For somebody else, their first DUI might do the trick.  Or spending just one night in jail.  Or losing their job.  Or losing their girlfriend or boyfriend.  Or whatever - different for everybody, and only clear looking back, after a few years of sobriety.  "Looking back, it was losing my job that got my attention.  That's when I got help and why I'm sober today, five years later."

So... .trying to figure out what will "make her snap out of it" probably won't work.  In fact, nothing you do will work - nothing will fix her - and the harder you try, the more you'll be dragged into her chaos and misery.

But you also can't give up - you're a mom and moms don't give up.  (Dads either.)

This is where Al-Anon and counseling help - boundaries so you can be who you are, and not lose yourself in this struggle you can't win.  You can make sure - and repeat it a million times - that she knows you love her and you always will, and that when she's ready your door will be open.  And still maintain the boundaries you and your husband decide are right.

One boundary I learned - it was hard for me but I developed the disciplined - is that when someone speaks unfairly to me on the phone, I hang up, and if they call back I don't answer.  But the next time they call, I don't mention it, it's forgotten, and we can have a good chat.  This has been super-important, because my son has spent a lot of time in rehab and prison, and calling home is a big deal, so he only had to hear that click a couple times to learn that there won't be any more conversations like that.  Now he's very respectful and honest - a huge change - a wonderful young man I'm very proud of and love to be around.  But it took several years, and nothing I could have done would have made it happen sooner, til he decided he wanted to change.

That's my key point here:  You can't fix her, you can't make her "snap out of it", and you can't know when that will happen.  You can make sure she knows you love her, you can set and maintain boundaries, and you can research options which might help when she's ready.  And you can take care of yourself, which will mean learning new ways to have some distance.

I wish it was easier!

Best wishes,

Matt